94 Comments

1. mika2k1:

“This highway — the only one in all Afghanistan — was touted as a showpiece by the Bush administration after it was rebuilt. It provides the only viable route between the two main American bases, Bagram to the north and Kandahar to the south. Now coalition forces travel along it at their own risk. In June, the Taliban attacked a supply convoy of 54 trucks passing through Salar, destroying 51 of them and seizing three escort vehicles. In early September, not far from here, another convoy was attacked and 29 trucks were destroyed. On August 13th, a few days before I pass through Salar, the Taliban staged an unsuccessful assassination attempt on the U.S.-backed governor of Ghazni, wounding two of his guards.”
==

How hard is it to have some UAVs patrol the highway. What a pathetic joke this war is.

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:22 pm 2. MarkJ:

The war in Afghanistan is neither pathetic nor is it a joke. Just ask the troops there.

As for you on the other hand….

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:33 pm 3. mika2k1:

The war in Afghanistan is neither pathetic nor is it a joke.
==

Oh stop it already. Anyone with half a brain can see this is nothing but a scam. Tribute payments to Jihadis, and welfare payments to military contractors.

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:46 pm 4. steveaz:

In many parts of the developing world, people do not have access to modern, synthetic drugs. They use what nature provides.

I say this in light of the fact that NATO is leveling its guns at Afghanistan’s opium farmers now.

Most grandmothers in rural parts of SE Asia, Korea, Tibet and Eurasia keep a ball of opium in their pill boxes – to ease a son’s back-pain, or, to keep a patient from worrying a treated lesion, or, to quiet a sleepless husband.

Savor the paradox: Wasn’t it Al Gore who railed that American Grandmothers are starving their house-pets in order to afford their medications? But, today In Afghanistan, we’re in a declared war against local Grandmas’ pill-boxes.

Will a heavy US/NATO hand meddling in Afghanistan’s opium trade help or hurt the US’s standing in the region? Does it serve our larger energy-based interests? Will it help or hinder our efforts to forge constructive ties with Asia’s rural populations?

As I think Claudia Rosett wrote recently about US policy to Central America, circa the time the Democrats rejected CAFTA: it is patently absurd that only one issue defines the USA’s entire relationship with peoples of the region, and that issue is prohibited drugs.

It’s looking like the same might just as well be said about Afghanistan.

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:52 pm 5. marymcl:

That’s all well and good for those with only half a brain, mika21, but those with the entire thing tend to see more, think more….you get the picture. Seriously, your remarks couldn’t be more ignorant. Afghanistan is a graveyard of armies. Read a little history. Get a clue.

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:56 pm 6. Alexis:

I remember the lyrics of a country song…

When I die, won’t you bury me in Chicago
’cause I don’t want to lose the right to vote

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:57 pm 7. The Anti Jihadist:

Is Mika the new designated leftist troll here at Belmont? Whatever happened to that Teresita character that was always poo-pooing on whatever Wrechard was writing about? I never thought I would be pining away for Mr. T.

Oct 17, 2008 - 6:59 pm 8. Alexis:

mika:

How would YOU fight the war in Afghanistan?

If you are so smart, perhaps you would win the war in Afghanistan all by yourself rather than pestering the folks at the Belmont Club.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:01 pm 9. starling:

Does anyone have a link to a story or account of the June 2008 attack on said “supply convoy of 54 trucks” ? I find it hard to believe that the decimation- no, total destruction- of a convoy in Afghanistan would have stayed out of the headlines?

And yet, when I google search any combination of terms like “salar”, “convoy”, and “taliban”, I get no stories on this supposed attack. Why that is I don’t know. Maybe I construct lousy google searches. Maybe the Taliban lied to the reporter, Nir Rosen. Maybe Rosen just made it up. Maybe it really did happen but for some reason no one, anywhere that I can find, thought it worth reporting.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:02 pm 10. starling:

Does anyone have a link to a story or account of the June 2008 attack on said “supply convoy of 54 trucks” ? I find it hard to believe that the decimation- no, total destruction- of a convoy in Afghanistan would have stayed out of the headlines.

And yet, when I google search any combination of terms like “salar”, “convoy”, and “taliban”, I get no stories on this supposed attack. Why that is I don’t know. Maybe I construct lousy google searches. Maybe the Taliban lied to the reporter, Nir Rosen. Maybe Rosen just made it up. Maybe it really did happen but for some reason no one, anywhere that I can find, thought it worth reporting.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:03 pm 11. PoltioStan:

Obama’s Plan for America

Not so funny humor.

http://www.myhispanicfamily.com/?p=2600

I originally intended this post as a joke.
I literally copied wiki’s page on Socialism and did a search and replace on two just words.
Socialism = Obama’s Plan
Socialist = Liberal

But as I started reading it and it became scary.

It’s a pretty readable manifesto of what the Dems plan for us all.

~Stan

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:06 pm 12. mika2k1:

you get the picture.
==

The picture? The only picture I see is that of idiots and scammers wasting taxpayers money and young soldiers lives on a pathetic joke that is this fake war.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:08 pm 13. Tony:

There used to be a great Mika here, an earnest curmudgeon. But that one had military experience, he wouldn’t write this silliness. I wonder if he’s ever set foot in Afghanistan, or if it’s all something he read on Wikipedia.

Responding to provacateurs is like playing football against girls, easy to do but not the done thing, one’s victories are tainted.

Vote fraud and guerillas among the villagers, same dealy-o. I just saw Christopher Hitchens say that this is now a war between Afghanistan and Pakistan, as if there are such nations conducting such an imaginary national war.

We’ll know things have gone awry when Obama shines an arclight on the trouble.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:12 pm 14. mika2k1:

How would YOU fight the war in Afghanistan?
==

I’d nuke Pakistan and Saudia. I’d leave nothing breathing there. Next, I’d tell the Iranians to hand over the nukes they got from Pakistan, and if they refuse I’d nuke them too. That simple.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:13 pm 15. Alexis:

There is an internationally recognized need for morphine. Perhaps the United States could buy up Afghanistan’s opium supply in exchange for registering every farm and inspecting the farms so they comply with regulations.

Making Afghan farmers dependent upon farm subsidies may be the least bad option we have. We could also buy up Afghanistan’s wheat crop at high prices to encourage Afghan farmers to switch from opium to wheat. As a rule, our military ought to rely upon the purchase of foodstuffs available in Afghanistan instead of shipping food supplies through Pakistan. Where possible, we should also encourage industries in northern Afghanistan and Kabul to supply our troops.

Although it would be nice to expect the Taliban to vanish next year, I think the wisest course of action is to dig in for the duration. That effectively means subsidizing a war industry in Afghanistan to supply our troops and the Afghan Army for the next few decades.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:14 pm 16. Tony:

Alexis,

There are no industries in northern or any other part of Afghanistan. It’s not New Jersey, it’s hell on Earth. There are no excess foodstuffs. It’s the least civilized place on the planet, outside impenetrable jungle. It is desert, mountain and lack of order for 1000 miles and a thousand years in every direction, interspersed by lush valleys where bandits and opium poppies grow wild.

I find it sobering to take a look at a map and see what Obama’s bellicose plans could lead to, trying to imagine how we’d support 70,000+ NATO troops in that landlocked battlefield of Afghanistan without Pakistan’s help.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:24 pm 17. Lifeofthemind:

WW-II authorized war correspondents were put in uniform with distinctive patches to identify them. Anyone running around without such authorization would have been shot as a spy.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:29 pm 18. RWE:

Saddam’s bagmen reached into the capitals of North America, too. Canada’s then-president, Cretin (as the Quebecois call him) had close ties to oil companies that Saddam favored.

And the U.S. Democratic Party was bribed too. Saddam paid for the the pre-war visit of U.S. Reps Jihad Jim and Baghdad Bonjur. Mark Rich, pardoned by Bill Clinton, got money from Saddam, too, and some of that money found it’s way to President Bill himself.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:35 pm 19. Michael B:

“Consider whether a journalist from al-Qaeda can embed with the US military; write about them favorably, and then return to be a celebrity in the Northwest Frontier. He would be more than likely beheaded. You might call that unfair,bBut one shouldn’t blame the Taliban for that. After all they know they are at war with the West, but you can’t say the West thinks it is at war with Islamic terrorism. People in the West just want to be kept safe. What’s war got to do with it?”

Beheaded, almost certainly, and with equal near-certainty, flayed alive or subjected to some other, equally desirable “examination”. But in the cossetted U.S. and the cossetted west in general, the Nir Rosens of the world expect to be celebrated, and are in fact celebrated, in substantial part for their “transgressionist” forays.

Reminiscent of brave three-year olds who, still being spoon-fed, bravely spit out their Gerbers food meal, letting their still indulgent parents know just who’s in charge in this cossetted world they inhabit! Brave transgressionists all, doncha know!

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:44 pm 20. Alexis:

Tony:

I know.

Merely to sustain a long term presence for the forces we have, we would need to promote industries that have never existed in Afghanistan. I still think it will be necessary to get the opium farmers on our side. If we cannot get Afghan farmers (and that includes opium farmers) on our side, the Afghan front of this war is doomed. It is often forgotten that one of the reasons why the Taliban were so unpopular in 2001 was because they had turned against the opium farmers; the opium farmers hold the balance of power in Afghanistan.

70,000+ NATO troops in Afghanistan? I wouldn’t recommend it, for many reasons.

I think the people of United States of America need to understand the necessity of choosing between fighting a “War on Drugs” and a war against al-Qaeda, FARC, Sendero Luminoso, and other terrorist organizations. When we fight against drug trafficking, we empower the terrorists; when we fight against the terrorists, we must by necessity tolerate the drug dealers.

We live in a world where there are tradeoffs for most decisions we make. Afghanistan isn’t New Jersey; it isn’t even New Mexico. If the present logistics of the American military presence in Afghanistan is unsustainable for the long term, we need to consider whether capitalizing Afghan industry ought to be a viable option for supplying our troops in the field.

Oct 17, 2008 - 7:49 pm 21. Uncle Jefe:

Mika, the world you live in doesn’t exist.
Yet.
If we suffer a mass-casualty attack in the US, however, then we’ll enter into your world.
But that also depends on if McCain or obammy wins.
The ‘just nuke this’ or ‘just nuke that’ attitude means that millions of innocents who are victims of islamic extremists will also be vaporized.
But when the day comes that they are simply an afterthought, well…
I’m hoping we don’t arrive there.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:01 pm 22. peterike:

Antijihadist: Whatever happened to that Teresita character that was always poo-pooing on whatever Wrechard was writing about? I never thought I would be pining away for Mr. T.

Teresita is Ms. T, not Mr. T. She’s a, to my mind anyway, quite attractive woman of the Lesbian persuasion (this is no secret, her blog proclaims it proudly), one who I often found interesting and could never quite classify. Often she infuriated me, other times I wanted to shout “you go girl!” at her comments. I’ve never figured out her center.

In any case, this place is a bit less interesting since she more or less dropped out of site. Can we trade the tedious Mika2k1 for a return of Teresita and a future draft pick?

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:16 pm 23. peterike:

Meanwhile, back at the Obama New Hampshire rally….

Bencal… had been contacted by the Obama campaign to sing the anthem. He agreed to do so, then was told later in the evening the anthem had been scratched from the program. Bencal said he was told by the campaign the decision was a simple programming change to make room for another speaker….
Sandra Abrevaya, communications director for the Obama campaign’s Manchester office, confirmed the choice had simply been a last-minute scratch from the rally’s program.

So Obama, oh so short on time, naturally thinks first to drop the National Anthem. I mean, that does consume what, thirty, forty minutes?

Ahh, who needs the Anthem anyway. It’s just more of that racist cracker nonsense that Obama’s gonna wipe clean when a real rain comes to wash the right-wing scum from the face of the earth.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:26 pm 24. mika2k1:

The ‘just nuke this’ or ‘just nuke that’ attitude means that millions of innocents who are victims of islamic extremists will also be vaporized.
==

What a joke. Listen to yourselves. You’re worse than little school girls. The Pakis and Saudis crash planes into the Pentagon and US skyscrapers, and all you girls are taking about is making nice with these Jihadi snakes while they propagandize supply weapons and finance Jihadis worldwide and stockpile nukes. When does it end?!

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:26 pm 25. njcommuter:

Interesting. The folks at StrategyPage have a recent article about the Pakistani government going after the Taliban, who have worn out their welcome there.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:34 pm 26. Dave:

Let’s see now: Mika has a lot of Gall. Makes noises like some kind of Crazy Horse. And his only talent seems to be to Sit and Bull.

I GOT IT! He is really George Armstrong Mika
and he is determined to lead a great charge that will keep us from ever again being upon the Little Big Horn of a great dilemna.

Uncle Billy he ain’t.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:51 pm 27. Tamquam Leo Rugiens:

I saw an article some time ago that said that the opium plant was a much better source of the oil in biofuel than corn. Turn to opium as a source of that oil and reduce the amount of corn we use.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:53 pm 28. Tamquam Leo Rugiens:

I saw an article some time ago that said that the opium plant was a much better source of the oil in biofuel than corn. Turn to opium as a source of that oil and reduce the amount of corn we use for fuel instead of food. The farmers would get a good price for their opium crop, world food prices would come down.

Oct 17, 2008 - 8:54 pm 29. Dave:

Alexis, the subject of the opium crop came up before.

I suggested then and still do that our side buy the entire crop at premium prices and convert it to petroleum.

C4 called me deranged. Mark-B came to the rescue noting that opium could produce 124 gallons of petrol per acre (as compared to 48 gallons of ethanol per acre of corn).

Mark’s data would seem to understate the yield considerably. With what I have in mind, the entire plant, not just the opium buds, could be treated with reproductive bacteria to speed and enchance the process.

Care has to be taken that the processing/refining plants do not create a petroleum overhead that eats up the game.
Wind generators, draft animals and even manual labor can be employed to this end.

The project might not produce a free-market return on capital but surely would run at an operating profit.

This may not be the absolutely greates proposal ever made but I have yet to see or hear of one comparable.

Also, I am with you on the War on Drugs. Drug laws are a form of prior restraints. We are fighting a theo-cultural foe whose goal is universal prior restraints. We better find a way not to play into their hands. Sooner the better.

Oct 17, 2008 - 9:03 pm 30. 3Case:

The ignorant dirtbag from RS displays his slavish adherence to the ATM culture with his piece’s title. A functioning mind would understand history, terrain and logistics, with other military principles, as they apply in Afghanistan and understand that the jihadis there will take longer than a mere 5 years to eradicate. A better mind would also understand that it is better we be doin’ “it” to them there than to leave them “free about the area”, which would likely result in them doin’ “it” to us here.

Then again, RS is a flagship magazine of the culture of ignorance. A friend’s son worked there about a year. He left because he found it to be a cultural and ethical cesspool. The thing I found interesting is that management treated staff in ways that would prompt Cesar Chavez to action…maybe under an Obama administration’s card check rules RS staffers could unionize!

Oct 17, 2008 - 9:36 pm 31. Coyotl:

Starling, for what its worth Relief Web reported that a convoy of 54 trucks were attacked, but it doesn’t mention if any were destroyed.

Here’s an excerpt:

“Kabul – 23 June 2008

WFP CONVOY ATTACKED IN THE WEST

Last week armed men attacked a convoy of 54 commercial trucks transporting United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) food from Kandahar to Herat. The attack occurred in Shindand district on the ring road between Kandahar and Herat. One truck carrying 45 tons of food was taken to an unknown destination where the food was looted.

WFP continues food dispatches through convoys escorted by Afghan National Police from Kandahar to Herat in the western region. The prevailing insecurity has hindered WFP food deliveries to Maidan Wardak, Ghazni and Paktika provinces. Consequently, the dispatch of 800 tons of food has been put on hold to these provinces.

UNAMA strongly condemns these attacks, which takes food from the poorest Afghans, and we urge that everything possible must be done for these attacks to end.

On a positive note, WFP assistance to vulnerable returnees from Pakistan is ongoing. During the past week 150 tons of food was distributed to 4,300 vulnerable returnees in Nangarhar province. “

Oct 17, 2008 - 9:40 pm 32. Alexis:

Dave:

I like your idea. If there were some way to help Afghans set up industries so we could buy our petroleum supplies from local opium refineries, we’d go a long way to making the war effort sustainable.

Oct 17, 2008 - 10:06 pm 33. Dave:

Alexis, the past is prologue. It was the cattle barons, miners and sodbusters that
sustained all those military regiments post
Cvil War.

Oct 17, 2008 - 10:14 pm 34. Eggplant:

The Anti Jihadist asked:

“Is Mika the new designated leftist troll here at Belmont?”

You got it. People were ignoring Coyotl and no one was taking American Moslem seriously. No doubt after Mika wears himself out, someone else will step in to take his place.

Oct 17, 2008 - 10:20 pm 35. cedarford:

Dave, you are still flat out batshit deranged if you think poppies into oil is a viable crop and income source.

Afghanistan produced 4200 tons of gum opium. The flower is not a high-yield crop containing any appreciable energy or Afghans would use it instead of wood or imported kerosene to heat with.

If you take your 42 hundred tons, and say you get the equivalent in weight of diesel oil to gum…and you figure that much of it is not easily transportable and you will lose 30% of energy gain and revenue in the helo, truck transport plus the refining losses at the 500 million dollar refinery the US would have to build and operate. And then learn like most bio-oils like corn, peanut oil by a factor of another 20% loss in energy value – you get [(0.50 oil equivalent gain)X4200 tonsX2000 lbs/ton]

Then divided by {7.3 lbs per gallon diesel X 42 gallons a barrel}

Which results in an annual “oil crop” of 13,986 barrels of oil that has to pay the incomes of 1.8 million farmers and their families and another half million getting income from moving the opiate gum. Now, at oil 100 bucks a barrel, you get a national crop worth 1.37 million dollars.

About 60 cents a person.

Deranged fantasy. That’s all. Like a gold from seawater fantasy.

To make it simpler to understand, the price of a kilo of diesel oil is 3.85 gallon X (7.3 lbs/gallon/2.2 lbs per kilo) or a dollar and 16 cents a kilo. The price of a kilo of opium gum to the farmer is 420 dollars a kilo. The markup by middlemen as it leaves Afghanistan (inc Taliban and AQ middlemen) raises it to 2.8 – 3.6 billion.

Better we just buy up the opium crop at 20% more than Taliban pay until the deal for power-sharing in Afghanistan is concluded between them and Bush’s “Noble Afghan freedom-lovers”. Then we can pay the Taliban directly and not hassle the Pashtun tribes any more as long as they agree to not allow terrorists to operate from their turf in Afganistan. The Taliban were originally heading for strict control of poppies as “un-Islamic” while Bush’s allies were the ones pushing the crop. We buy the crop for 3 1/2 billion – tie it to reconstruction, fair price for farmers, nothing for AQ – and the Talis doing no more support of attacks from people in Afghanistan on people outside Afghanistan – and it’s cheaper than 2 months of OPS in country by “Our Heroes in uniform”.

Excellent article on the opium economy and what we should do about it, disregarded by Bush, but heeded in spirit by Defense Secretary Gates who is now pushing non-military solutions:

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACY288.pdf

Since you and I likely see eye to eye on the folly of the war on drugs and warring on every Pashtun village growing opium poppies as subsistance crop – and the collapse of the “oil from poppies!!” as a credible alternative – you will find the US AID report a good read, I hope.

I encourage others to read it and understand the problem and why there is no military solution to Afghanistan. Nothing our “Heroes in Uniform!” can do about it, or the Taliban now coming back to get their share of power.
The key is to control the opiates, and keep AQ out of any power-sharing solution or further access to the illegal drug cashflow.

We can likely live with the Taliban if they agree to live by a few conditions in return for us getting out of their lands and out of their faces – since the “democratization and modernization and women throwing off their Burquas” initial Bush-Neocon strategy was another pipe fantasy.

Note: I just noticed that the report said “metric tons” so my math is off by 200 lbs a ton. But the basic point on oil vs. opium values to Afghan farmers and middlemen in power remains.

Oct 17, 2008 - 10:22 pm 36. outa my league:

Did you folks know that old William Ayers used to be a Merchant Seaman?

That would make Obama’s biography “The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner”.

!!!

Oct 17, 2008 - 10:25 pm 37. ADE:

I’m late into this, but please help. Why, why, oh why is the arse end of the world (Afghanistan, Pakistan) of even the remotest interest to us?

I don’t for a second believe that, given the ring-fencing re airline travel, scanning shipping containers, following up funding, we should have any undue concerns about what issues from their arses.

Let them self destruct. They want it. The excruciating embarassment of being the only civilisation to discover reading and writing, and then blow it, would kill me too.

I just don’t get it. Tell me why I should care about Afghanistan.

ADE

Oct 18, 2008 - 3:22 am 38. 3Case:

“One truck carrying 45 tons of food was taken….”

I’d like to see a picture of that truck. 45 tons!! Does the “journalist” have any idea how big a 45 ton truck would have to be?!

Oct 18, 2008 - 3:44 am 39. Ardsgaine:

We need to get the opium farmers on our side? Well, here’s an idea. How about just protecting their right to property, and let them do whatever the hell they want with the opium: turn it into oil, smoke it, or sell it to the self-destructive idiots in the west who think that living is too much of a bore?

Oct 18, 2008 - 3:56 am 40. Wadeusaf:

The article reads more like Nir’s near death adventure, than an imbed. The idiot is lucky to be alive at all, much less to be walking in free society. IMO the fellow ought to be in a military prison, an Afghan military prison. He accomplished nothing, spoke to no one about anything useful to an understanding of anything. The article is a collection of useless anecdotes attempting to recoup the money RS spent to send him there, and from the tenor of the article, may have spent to get the worthless behind out of there too.

The best I can say about the piece is that the author is no Michael Yon.

Oct 18, 2008 - 4:40 am 41. JFSanders:

@3case,

Most 18wheelers in the U.S. carry as a normal load 80,000 lbs. that would be 40tons.

I concede on Afghani roads it might be a problem but I read somewhere that this highway was built fairly heavily.

Most people look at our presence in Afghanistan and say what the hell are we doing there. Just nuke ‘em from orbit and get on with life.
The problem with that is it lowers the threshold for other people in the world. They see us doing it then it must be good medicine. And that becomes the new standard.
What we need is consistency in our actions. The U.S. is acting like a bad mom. We don’t pay attention to these people until they get out of control and then we come in screaming and yelling but never really put wood to ass.
Then we act surprised when they go back to doing whatever it was that made us mad. It is seriously dysfunctional.
Now some people feel we shouldn’t be involved in other people’s business. And to a certain extent I agree. But when the action of one assails the rights of another I see just cause for action to correct said assailent. Somebody has to be the Adult on this planet. It may as well be the us.

Now as for the pablum that is being passed by the supposed journo. I think he wrote it from his hostel room.

Jim

Oct 18, 2008 - 5:27 am 42. JFSanders:

A basic editor would really help the comments section of Belmont Club…

Just imagine that I put in the proper indents for paragraphs and other such stuff. ARRRGGGG

Jim

Oct 18, 2008 - 5:32 am 43. fnord:

Interesting discussion, found this site by way of SMall Wars Journal. As a Norwegian lefty it is always fascinating to see the nuances of US rightwing discussions, from the intelligent and nuanced (like cedarford) to the flat out insane (Nuke em! Nuke em!). Never mind that nuking such areas is bound to mess up the ecology for ever and ever, the genociding of 200 billion people in order to combat a gang of criminals with about 4000 members seems a …tad excessive?

One idea wich I have failed to see tried is to go down the police-route. I would postulate that the only ones who will be able to eradicate AQ will be muslims. So where is the Interpol-based group of mustachioed super-cops from all over the Umma hunting them? Why no PR-effort on behalf of the forces of Law?

Oct 18, 2008 - 5:42 am 44. fnord:

PS: Your current Defense minister speaks much truth at :http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2008/10/pacify_afghanistan_takes_more.html

Oct 18, 2008 - 5:51 am 45. wretchard:

One idea wich I have failed to see tried is to go down the police-route. I would postulate that the only ones who will be able to eradicate AQ will be muslims. So where is the Interpol-based group of mustachioed super-cops from all over the Umma hunting them? Why no PR-effort on behalf of the forces of Law?

The police can only operate where a functioning state exists. When it doesn’t — or the enemy is too powerful — the police themselves need protection. For example the Iraqi police were not viable until al-Qaeda in Iraq could be beaten down. In Kosovo, the police stations need to be protected by NATO troops. On some occasions the police stations themselves were burned.

That doesn’t mean police action isn’t useful. Police action is the proper mode of action in combating al-Qaeda in Europe. In Somalia, what police could one be referring to? In the NWFP of Pakistan, it is doubtful any police force indistinguishable from an Army could make much headway. But I think the question is really: are the only solutions to terrorism purely coercive? Or does law and information warfare play a part. It plays the major part. Law has to be re-established over “lawless” or “failed state” areas. And information warfare is the most important counter-terror weapon of all. But these need the cover, or protection of military force. The lesson of the Surge is that they all work together. There is no “purely military” solution and no “purely political” one either. Getting a combined campaign going, ah, that is the difficulty.

Oct 18, 2008 - 5:51 am 46. Jeffrey -- New York:

Two years ago I did a little research on Nir Rosen and typed up an entry on him:

The Education of Nir Rosen.

You might be surprised what you learn about him.

*

Oct 18, 2008 - 6:50 am 47. Jeffrey -- New York:

And earlier this year I reviewed Nir Rosen’s last Rolling Stone article about Iraq:

Nir Rosen’s Fistful of Dollars.

The drawbacks to Nir’s reporting sadly outweigh his strengths.

Nir’s prediction used to be that Muqtada al-Sadr would be the new leader of Iraq. Today Muqtada lives in Qom, Iran, and no one talks about him anymore.

*

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:03 am 48. wretchard:

Much of what I have read about Nir Rosen suggests he is a personally brave man and enterprising journalist. I am not so sure this is the question. It is entirely possible that there among the Taliban a number of outstanding personalities. That’s not the question either. I think the more valid point is that Nir Rosen performs a valuable service by taking up points of view which may be unpleasant, but which nevertheless contain a lot of truth. This has always been the justification for independent journalism.

The problem, I think, comes from the conception we are at “war” with al-Qaeda. War is, or was regarded as a state of frank partisanship. Truth or even goodwill was at one time no defense of collaboration. Tokyo Rose couldn’t say, “well, my broadcasts brought another point of view to the debate.” That might have been true, but in the context of 1945, also irrelevant.

The remedy I suppose, is to consider ourselves not at war in the traditional sense. But what about the Geneva Conventions? There are people who will argue America is not abiding by the Rules of War. Why if there is no War? Is it possible to have it both ways? Can one say, “oh, let’s embed with the Taliban” and “oh, the Taliban are entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions”. Maybe, but only if we create some intermediate category of warfare. And maybe that’s where we are now.

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:08 am 49. Jeffrey -- New York:

Wretchard,

In the second section of my entry called “Nir Rosen’s Fistful of Dollars,” I analyze both the strengths and weaknesses of Nir as a journalist (fairly, I think). About Iraq, Nir was wrong, and we ought to keep that in mind. Back in February of this year, he was sure that the surge would never work. As I wrote elsewhere, he was personally invested in the idea that Iraq would descend into chaos, and that need to see Iraq implode affected both his observations and his writing on Iraq.

Now that Iraq has stabilized, Nir is off to Afghanistan, but I still see his modus operandi as one of polemic masquerading as reporting. Once you know more about his background, it’s much easier to read between the lines of his work. Faced with facts on the ground, he could change or modify his interpretive frame, of course, but so far I haven’t seen that happen.

So Nir’s embedding with the Taliban is undestandable once you followed his embedding with the Sunni insurgents in Iraq. It’s a fine line with him between being a fearless reporter and being a traitor. I see him as someone who hates the idea of America so much that he seeks out those whose hatred equals his own. As a dissident, Nir’s hatred of America equals the hatred felt by AQ in Iraq and the homegrown Sunni insurgents there and now the Taliban in Afghanistan.

About the other points you raise about how to categorize his position legally, I’m still thinking about them.

*

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:42 am 50. Jeffrey -- New York:

Wretchard,

One more point. If Nir were a truly brave journalist, he would write a follow-up piece on Iraq called “How the US Won the War That I Said Was Lost.”

*

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:58 am 51. Spindok:

I just wanted to agree with Dave and the idea of buying the raw opium directly from the farmers. Maybe others could come up with better figures but I estimated the annual crop at around $10 billion.

You dont need to drop the Taliban’s funding 100% to seriously degrade their capabilities. Even if half of that were purchased and turned into biofuel at a 20% loss that would come to around 1 billion cost.

Maybe speculative, but that should be more than enough to drastically drive up prices on the remaining crop. This should result in shifting the majority of production back into SE asia as it was when the Taliban were actually supressing opium farming. The drug barons will simply find another supplier. Afghan opium is selling because it is cheap right now.

In exchange for selling us the opium at current prices the US could offer one of its chief exports – security. Those who do not sell to us face the risk of having their crops sprayed.

Not too sophisticated perhaps but we have no chance if we cant get at their supply lines. We know we can kill Taliban whenever we can find them but we are just playing whack-a-mole at this point without a more comprehensive approach.

Spindok

Spindok

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:00 am 52. 3Case:

@JFS: I’d still like to see a picture of the truck; the engine, tranny and brakes would have to be outsized to deal with the terrain while hauling 45 tons. The terrain there also makes the “Just nuke ‘em from orbit and get on with life.” option very iffy, even before it lowers everyone else’s threshold.

Thank you, J–NY.

@fnord: It is understandable that a Norwegian lefty would want to box this discussion as “US right wing”. The older I get the more I am certain that monarchic/post-monarchic cultures are incapable of perceiving libertarianism in any form. As to “One idea wich I have failed to see tried is to go down the police-route.“, you live in Euro, right? Isn’t that how the governments there have been dealing with violent Islam? How’s it been working out? How’d it work out for Theo van Gogh? IMHO, the World Trade Center got collapsed on the altar of “the police-route”. As to “nuking such areas is bound to mess up the ecology for ever and ever, ever been to Hiroshima? I have. Had the best BLT sandwich of my life just West of there (wrote about it on the old site) just down the street from a Country Music bar which has a vinyl record collection I would covet if I were closer. I was there 35 years after the big bang and the ecology was quite thriving.

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:16 am 53. fnord:

wretchard: “The police can only operate where a functioning state exists. When it doesn’t — or the enemy is too powerful — the police themselves need protection.”

Very true. However, I would like to point a few degrees deeper into the problem: In the new FM 3-24, the bible of COIN (Counterinsurgency) one of the fundaments for succesful COIn is that of legitimacy of those conducting operations. My main argument lies in the choice made by the US post 9/11 to declare “War on Terrorism” instead of seeing it as the greatest manhunt in the world. If it had been framed as a joint international police-effort, wich unfortunately needed military assistance to bear, it would have been a whole different sell to the muslim population of the countries involved. By choosing an IO approach towards the problem wich stressed the participation of muslim policemen fighting the erhabis, a whole lot of sympathy could have been retained. Instead, the image that came across to the world was that of US military folks in ACUs and sunglasses going apeshit, with your president acting delibeately as a military posterboy. Its easy to forget how hamhanded the response to 9/11 was when seen from abroad.

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:24 am 54. fnord:

PS. 3case: The road we are talking about is the one the US experts have seen as a great step forward in COIN fighting, its a solid blacktop. So the truck-size is propably correct. As for your fears of “violent islam” in europe as a social problem, it is really not much of a problem at all, the neo-nazis are much worse on a day-to-day violence count. (I am not here talking about actual AQ operations). In my country we have a very solid inter-religious dialogue going, in stark contrast to Netherlands and Denmark. It is true that “our” values and “theirs” often come in conflict, but generally they are not much worse than calvinists and puritans, even the pretty crazy ones. (And as an aside, as a anarchosyndicalist and as one who has served in the army, I am not so sure US libertanists understand libertarianism either.)

As for the argument of Hiroshima proving nukes to be safe, I would point you to the radius of that one blast. If you are going to set up a nuclear contamination zone from Pakistan to Kabul I do imagine the fallout may be a little greater, no? Not to mention how the radiation blasts may play hell with global temperature, etc. Come on, sir, with all due respect.

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:34 am 55. JFSanders:

“Its easy to forget how hamhanded the response to 9/11 was when seen from abroad.”

Ham handed would have been nuking them. This is not a school yard fight between girls.

Jim

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:38 am 56. fnord:

JF SAnders: Try twisting the second line of your argument and put it in behind my last line. This is not a schoolyard fight between boys either.

Oct 18, 2008 - 8:44 am 57. peterike:

As for your fears of “violent islam” in europe as a social problem, it is really not much of a problem at all, the neo-nazis are much worse on a day-to-day violence count.

Oh so THAT’s whose been burning those cars every night in France. Thanks for clearing that up. “Not much of a problem at all.” You do know you’re delusional about that?

In my country we have a very solid inter-religious dialogue going

No doubt. It probably goes something like this:

Muslims: back down and do what we want!
White liberals: yes please
Muslims: now back down further.
White liberals: yes please, can we have some more?

There is no such thing as “dialogue” with Islam. It’s just a game they play with all those sophisticated Euro government types who don’t have one-tenth the sense or will to live of the most drawlin’ cow-poke American rube.

Oct 18, 2008 - 9:12 am 58. 3Case:

@fnord: Haven’t got a lot of time right now; got errands to do. But want to say that you are focusing on the road and I want to know about the truck. In a similar vein, I cite a concrete example of the existence of a thriving city that was nuked and you morph off into vague hypotheses. Finally, since I first encountered anarchosyndicalism 37 years ago, I have considered it an oxymoron.

Oct 18, 2008 - 9:15 am 59. 3Case:

BTW, I am grateful for your insights as to the religious dialogue over there and am sorry to hear that the government hasn’t a better grip on the neo-Nazis. Here the FBI is so far up the neoNs butts that they know what’s for dinner before the skinheads do.

Oct 18, 2008 - 9:17 am 60. fnord:

peterike: I dont know if youve been to Paris, but I can assure you that there is no burning of cars on a grand scale every night. I lived there for a month, and the banlieu riots are much more a question of social class and general unemployment than any sort of religious crazyness. In fact, the mosques have been a great partner to the government in helping quelling the larger perspectives. I, too, have burnt cars against the government. Its not the same as killing people.

“There is no such thing as “dialogue” with Islam.”

Dammit, does this mean I have to stop talking to Rashid who runs my local kebab shop? Last time I checked, the US was allied with the Iraqi and Afghan government. I didnt know they were christian. Doh.

3Case: Points to you on politeness. Fair enough on the truck, not so good theory on nuclear radiation and its cumulative effects. But hey. The point is that we are not sure what a series of nuclear detonations will actually do (and never mind the genocide moral argument) so it might, it even propably might, trigger a armageddon scenario. (The neo-nazis and their anti-muslim friends are a serious problem because they push muslims over the edge into counter-fanaticsm.. “There is no such thing as “dialogue” with Islam.” is an example of that agenda.)

Oct 18, 2008 - 9:54 am 61. NahnCee:

“…a very solid inter-religious dialogue going …”

Translation: Muslims demand no Mohammad cartoons as part o their rich cultural heritage and increasingly limited freedom of speech to avoid getting their little feelings hurted. fnord et al say: fOK, respecting the mutual inter-religious dialogue.

Muslims demand bigger and noisier mosques — rich cultural heritage yadda yadda. fnord et al say: fOK – we will enjoy hearing the amplified call to prayer five times a day.

Muslims demand right to kill females for honor reasons (see above rich cultural heritage yadda yadda). fnord et al say: fOK — we promise no autopsies nor prosecutions respecting the need for women to be kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen … or dead.

Muslims demand right to rape infidel blonde females. fnord et al say: fOK. (No one thinks to ask infidel blonde females how they feel about this agreement but every one agrees it’s probably best if they just stay home or are always accompanied by a male relative — just like it says in the Koran.)

Muslims demand right to bring forty-eleven relatives from the Old Country in to live with them in new Europe. fnord et al say: fOK. And please allow us to put them on the dole so they can live for free at taxpayer’s expense, too.

Muslims demand right to burn and arson restaurants, cars and people on the street. fnord et al say: fOK. No one asks the firefighters how they feel about having to go into enemy territory to put these arson fires out.

Muslims demand right to harass Jews on the street, to kidnap them and torture them over a period of weeks — because it’s in the Koran. fnord et al look the other direction and develop instant hearing loss (left-over from having been learned during the Holocaust when no one saw or heard those 6 million Jews being trained into camps spewing lots of funny-smelling black smoke).

Muslims demand right to force their females into hijabs, burka’s and abaya’s. fnord et al mutter a little bit about needing a face on ID cards, and then give up and say “fOK”.

Then, fnord et al look around, exhausted from being so agreeable and accommodating to their Muslim interlopers and wanting to show how civilized they really are and intelligent and morally superior — find the nearest American available to lecture using words like “hamhanded”, “cowboy”, and “arrogant”. And simply do not understand at all when said American does NOT respond with an agreeable “OK”, but just snorts in derision and walks away.

Why, it’s almost as if a European opinion doesn’t matter at all to those silly ham-handed, uneducated arrogant (incredibly successful) Americans!!!

Oct 18, 2008 - 10:19 am 62. fnord:

Interesting, US idiocy revealed.

Premise. “Translation: Muslims demand no Mohammad cartoons as part o their rich cultural heritage and increasingly limited freedom of speech to avoid getting their little feelings hurted. fnord et al say: fOK, respecting the mutual inter-religious dialogue.”

Reality: muslims stage a demonstration, protected by the police, protesting the cartoons. Cartoons remain legal, but Norwegian editors make statements about der Sturmer and problems of propaganda vs. minorities gets discussed.

Premise: “Muslims demand bigger and noisier mosques — rich cultural heritage yadda yadda. fnord et al say: fOK – we will enjoy hearing the amplified call to prayer five times a day.”

Reality: Muslims apply for right to hold calls to prayers, intense debate about loudspeaker volume for two weeks, compromise made, everyone happy.

Premise: “Muslims demand right to kill females for honor reasons (see above rich cultural heritage yadda yadda). fnord et al say: fOK — we promise no autopsies nor prosecutions respecting the need for women to be kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen … or dead.”

Pure bullshit. ALso turns out that honour killing is a mostly kurdish tradition wich applies to christian kurds as well

Premise: “Muslims demand right to rape infidel blonde females….”

F&%k off. Do you relly think thats how it works? Because then, Ive gotr this fuehrer figure you might want to check out, he believes that the Aryan race is inherently supreme and that Wotan has declared us the goddamn masters of the universe. In my city, we have muslims walking hand in hand with protestants on anti-rape patrols.

And I cant bear to take it any longer. Im sure those watermelon eating nigras are up to no good either, NahnCee. But just as a test, try substituting the word “Jews” for “muslims in the text above. And then look yourself in the mirror, and contemplate what youve become.

Oct 18, 2008 - 10:52 am 63. fnord:

PS. I find it interesting that some of you are accusing Petraeus of treason by default, since he verily has commenced communication with the muslims.

Oct 18, 2008 - 10:59 am 64. Alexis:

fnord:

There are many people who post at the Belmont Club who aren’t lizards. It would not be wise to equate “lizardoid” ideology with American politics, or even American conservatism. Repticons (or “lizardoids”) are a small minority even among American conservatives, just as al-Qaeda is a small minority among Muslims.

That said, there is a big difference between talking to Muslims and talking to “Islam”. “Dialogue with Islam” is essentially a theological discussion one would have with an imam, a mosque preacher, or an ayatollah. This is not to be confused with having Muslim friends. And guess what? I do have Muslim friends; some of them hate al-Qaeda more than I do.

There is an amazing amount of ignorance spread about religion, and a considerable amount of it was spread by Karl Marx. Despite or perhaps because of the theological overtones of Karl Marx’s ideology (Berdeyev regarded it as a theological heresy), the entire idea of religion being the “opiate of the masses” has become rather popular, never mind the historical role of religion in shaping human psychology and the historical role of clerics (priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, druids, et cetera) as de facto community organizers.

Oct 18, 2008 - 11:21 am 65. 3Case:

fnord: You’re welcome. Me little white-haired Mudder (raven-haired back in the day) brung me up to be polite. Beyond that, I learned from my Pop the advice of his Grandfather and Greatgrandfather (Canadians, BTW): “There is not a man on the planet from whom you cannot learn something.” Buried me Mom last week in the Adirondacks 8 years to the day after we buried my Pop, so, for a while, I am going to be prone to periodic snarkiness.

Oct 18, 2008 - 12:12 pm 66. Wadeusaf:

What kind of fight is it then? The question of what the status of illegal combatants is part of the same conundrum that we face trying to define the role of journalism and the status of journalists on the field of battle.

What the story does in confirm in a quirky way, what we already knew. That divisions exist in the Al Taliban Cue of tribes, that tribal loyalties and tribal culture are being destroyed.

The question is whether tactically we can utilize the tribal system to cobble together a united front against extreme Islamists and Al Q or if we will have to settle for an extreme ally in eradicating a truly dangerous one. The pressures from Kabul and from Islamabad are playing a role in determining the answer. I don’t believe we have a firm answer as of yet, but actions in the NW Frontier of Pakistan, eastern and southern Afghanistan as well as in the central area indicate that we are getting closer to the kinds of answers and focus needed.

I suppose in an adversarial contest a free press could argue they have the right to determine and report on both sides of the story. I suppose too that they could shed some light on the status of opposing forces.

But this is not the crime beat. While a combination of LEO, Military and Diplomatic tools are needed to wage this battle, it is not a mere criminal investigation. Attempts to pigeon hole the effort are not just wrong headed but tend emanate from that cesspool of seditious thinking that was in vogue in certain cliques of the 1930’s, the 1950’s, 1960’s left culture and beyond that attempt to muddy the view and rather than clarify vision.

I don’t have a problem with it except for the knowledge that if we are able to learn, the opposing side also is able to glean information in such an exchange. If we can control the messenger then we can control the message. In an society with a free press we control the message by limiting our opponents access to the messenger. In a time of war that means making consorting with the enemy treason and a capital offense.

Oct 18, 2008 - 12:14 pm 67. Wadeusaf:

The last paragraph above should read In an society with a free press.

Oct 18, 2008 - 12:28 pm 68. Wadeusaf:

He He, lets try it again in an OPEN society with a free press.

Oct 18, 2008 - 12:32 pm 69. peterike:

fnord writes: I dont know if youve been to Paris, but I can assure you that there is no burning of cars on a grand scale every night. I lived there for a month, and the banlieu riots are much more a question of social class and general unemployment than any sort of religious crazyness… I, too, have burnt cars against the government. Its not the same as killing people.

Uh huh. This is from the London Times. It’s from 2006, just happens to be the first link that came up.

The figures are stark. An average of 112 cars a day have been torched across France so far this year [article published in OCTOBER] and there have been 15 attacks a day on police and emergency services. Nearly 3,000 police officers have been injured in clashes this year. Officers have been badly injured in four ambushes in the Paris outskirts since September. Some police talk of open war with youths who are bent on more than vandalism.

Hmmm, 100+ cars a day, EVERY day, through OCTOBER. I guess fNord doesn’t consider 100 cars to be a “grand scale”. Then, as an admitted car burner himself (ooooh, ain’t you the brave little Leftist rebel!), maybe he knows a thing or two about “grand scale” car burnings. Me, I’m old fashioned. I kinda think one is too much.

Oh and those 3,000 injured police officers. That’s not, you know, “violence,” that’s just the voice of the poor and oppressed expressing itself in a kind of performance art. I’m just too much of a Philistine to understand it.

The thing about poor old fNord is that he is such a culturally compromised individual that he simply cannot SEE what is in front of his eyes. Everything is excused, everything painted over with the brush of tolerance. Every cowardly collapse in the face of aggressive Islam painted as a compromise. Everybody happy all ’round! He can’t see it for the slow and steady corrosive that it is.

He is, in short, hopeless, and committed to his own cultural annihilation. The pity is his types are now probably the majority in America, too, and that price will have to be paid.

Oct 18, 2008 - 1:46 pm 70. NahnCee:

fNord – I would hit you with Godwin’s law, except I was the first one to bring up the Holocaust, so I can’t.

However, you *CAN* hurl the term “racist” still, which is the last refuge of a liberal in over his head in an argument.

Seriously, though — I wonder if you would type a few sentences on what you hope to accomplish by landing here at Belmont Club and calling us all stupid. Is it just for the fun of name-calling and showing how uninformed you are as you lecture us on how uninformed we are, or do you deep down think that you can change minds of stubborn Americans to become more accepting of our future Islamic (and current European) fate with a rich cultural internet interaction?

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:02 pm 71. NahnCee:

P.S. Alexis, “lizardoid” might also refer to posters at LittleGreenFootballs, where Charles Johnson is the Chief Lizard, and his regular minions who post there are known as the lizardoids. Their on-site chat room is called the Lizard Lounge.

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:04 pm 72. Cannoneer No. 4:

The question is whether tactically we can utilize the tribal system to cobble together a united front against extreme Islamists and Al Q or if we will have to settle for an extreme ally in eradicating a truly dangerous one.

Wadeusaf:

Tactical utilization of the Pashtun tribal system requires us to understand it. You may be interested in Tribal Ruff Puffs and One Man Human Terrain Teams for IW.

Most of the Pashtuns aren’t as “tribal” as they used to be.

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:08 pm 73. Cannoneer No. 4:

The question that nags is can we win? But even that question begs another, do we as a public have the stomach to win?

The answers are not simple. The questions challenge our resolve, our will, and our understanding not only of Afghanistan but of our perception of threat that we face. From this side of the world, our lives back home look very different. What is seen and experienced here changes all who last the test. For now, I offer no answers, only things to consider. — Scott Kesterson

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:16 pm 74. Cannoneer No. 4:

There are many names used in Afghanistan to describe those fighting against the government. Taliban, insurgents, Anti Government Elements (AGE) and Armed Opposition Groups (AOG) are the most common descriptors. I like using AOG because it best describes all those groups who are fighting or undermining the Afghan government. AOG can be Taliban, criminal gangs who cooperate with the Taliban, rent-a-Taliban (mostly teenage boys who need money and adventure) or militas controlled by warlords. Every armed group has its own agenda and few cooperate with each other. This is their principal weakness -the inability to operate with unity of command or purpose. Our big weakness is that we cannot take advantage of their weakness because most of our military is confined to large bases and have no idea what is happening just outside their wire fences let alone the rest of the country. — Tim Lynch

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:26 pm 75. Pay Attention:

–Never mind that nuking such areas is bound to mess up the ecology for ever and ever, the genociding of 200 billion people…-

While its nice to have a superior European come to the site and help us yanks, you would make a more significant contribution if you could estimate the population you are describing correctly within 2 factors of ten from the real number.

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:30 pm 76. Pay Attention:

—Pure bullshit. ALso turns out that honour killing is a mostly kurdish tradition wich applies to christian kurds as well—

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Perhaps in post-moral Europe it matters that honor killing is ‘kurdish’. The lives of the poor young women obviously mean nothing to the values-free European mind.

As a citizen of a country where life is still valued, my stomach turns that two women are killed for the religion of peace….

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,437502,00.html

Almost a year after two teenage girls were found dead — allegedly executed by their father — in the back seat of a taxicab in Texas, the FBI is saying for the first time that the case may have been an “honor killing.”

Sarah Said, 17, and her sister Amina, 18, were killed on New Year’s Day, but for nine months authorities deflected questions about whether their father — the prime suspect and the subject of a….

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/02/04/dl0401.xml

Feb 4, 2008 … You wouldn’t expect there to be honour killings in modern Britain today. You’d expect people to be a little more enlightened, living, …

Oct 18, 2008 - 2:47 pm 77. Cannoneer No. 4:

Barackzai malik and son assassinated leaving a mosque in Kandahar

Now, maybe we have people who know about the Barackzai, and could motivate, aid and influence Barackzai response to this atrocity.

Or maybe we don’t.

Oct 18, 2008 - 4:30 pm 78. Wadeusaf:

“Every armed group has its own agenda and few cooperate with each other. This is their principal weakness -the inability to operate with unity of command or purpose.”

On one level this describes Al Anbar, on another it describes the vacuum waiting to be filled, a unifying purpose. I see the purpose coming from both sides of the border and developing into an effective force for common sense (as they define it). I don’t think we can control the situation so much as we must be prepared to take advantage of it. The Taliban like Al Q in Iraq have worn out their welcome, but in the rough neighborhood providing stability has become more important than being welcome. That seems to me to be a little on the sick side of the walk to settle for the dhimitude to such a holes. I don’t think most of the Pashtun would disagree. But they have to have the organization to allow them to go on the offensive against the taliban and others, and they have to have enough incentive to play it straight. It is in the area of the Incentives where we are coming up short.

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:41 pm 79. Mad Fiddler:

Fnord prompts some plain speaking.

Fnord, lying is not an acceptable tactic.

The honor killings that have been reported in the West have not been done by Kurds, certainly not by Christian Kurds. I suggest that fnord chooses to identify Kurds as the chief offenders for no other reason than that the Kurds were most identifiably the allies and beneficiaries of the protection and intervention of the Coalition led by the United States responding to Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait. (Yes there are Kurds and Christians around the world that share these medieval attitudes, but the problem of “Honor Killings” is conspicuously a MUSLIM phenomenon.)

Mohammad Riaz poured Petrol over his wife and female children and set them ablaze. He is a Muslim who immigrated to London from Pakistan.

Canadian teenager Aqsa Parvez was strangled by her father for refusing to wear traditional “modest” Islamic hijab. The Father is a Muslim who had emigrated from Pakistan.

Two Dallas Islamic teenaged girls Amina and Sarah Said, were murdered by their father, with possibly the assistance or at least the acquiescence of their own brother. Their Muslim father was an Egyptian before relocating to Texas.

Yes, there are other cultures than Islamic ones which brutalize their women, even to the extent of killing them. Murder of young Hindu brides by their husbands and in-laws simply to collect their dowries is a continuing problem in India. But most of the honor killings reported around the world are overwhelmingly committed by MUSLIM families, whether they are from Eastern Europe, Africa, or the Middle East.

Further, when fnord lectures us that the U.S. response to 9-11 was perceived as “ham-handed” as seen from abroad, he merely perpetuates the soda-straw viewpoint of those people who refuse to acknowledge that Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups have been waging terrorist jihad against the U.S. (and many other countries) for decades. Fnord should be reminded that when the United States was attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, the strategic response was first focused on taking the war to Japan’s Nazi allies, Germany and Italy.

The links between Japanese and German aggression were clear, and the links among the various international Islamic Jihadist terrorist groups are gradually being revealed. Saddam Hussein had for years been famously offering tens of thousands of dollars in rewards to the families of Palestinians who “martyred” themselves as suicide bombers, and had less conspicuously hosted and provided support to other terrorist groups. It has been widely acknowledged that Saddam Hussein provided refuge, medical treatment, and other support for Abdul Rahman Yasin, one of the team that executed the 1993 attack on the WTC. In the year 2000, Abu Musab Zarqawi was protected by Saddam’s government from extradition to Jordan for prosecution for terrorist acts.

One wonders in which highly-sophisticated country fnord lives, where people are blessed with his particular arrogant and blindered vision. Especially deserving of note is the clever use of rhetoric in dismissing the idea that Muslim culture teaches that it’s permitted to rape infidel women: “F&$k off.” Brilliant argument.

We are all humbled, and grovel with shame that we lack such rhetorical finesse.

Oct 18, 2008 - 10:38 pm 80. SpeakEasy:

fnord and his ilk will deny, deny, deny until they need the US to defend them. The only reason, IMO naturally, the violence is not worse in Europe is because they receive negotiation for their acts. This weak-kneed response tells the Muslim community they do not have to fear them so they can erode the resistance more gradually. This allows them to address the more forceful of their enemies more directly while enjoying safe haven in Europe. I would caution Europeans to revisit how their cities were destroyed by the US in prosecution of German forces. If you want to appease the enemy do not be surprised when you find yourself in the crossfire.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:28 pm 81. Cannoneer No. 4:

Traveling in the East of Afghanistan; Jalalabad, The Khyber Pass, Peshawar, with a Small Rant on Reconstruction

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:38 pm 82. cubanbob:

A simple solution to part of the problem would be if the US would cease having commercial relations with nations who do business with rogue nations like Iran, Syria and North Korea. Let China or Germany decide what is in their best interest, us or them. Some might chose them, so be it. If nothing else that would bring much needed clarity in to the picture.

As for the terrorist scum, upon capture, interrogate and then follow with summary execution. fNord why would think for a moment that Americans would possibly care what Europeans think? The contribution Europe brings to the table is so comparatively minuscule that for the most part they are more bother than worth, and certainly in the degree they demand to be partners with equal say. They are like partners who invest virtually no cash, contribute next to nothing in work and effort but demand an equal share of the profit. Europe is an impotent old man who can no longer be of help but is largely a hindrance.

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:36 am 83. 3Case:

1. fnord is Norwegian.
2. He admits to being a Euro-lefty, which means he’s large part Bolshevik.
3. Lying is how leftys work. They lie consciously and unconsciously with the unconscious lying being chosen conciously, which is to say they tend to like ignorance as it serves their purposes, which are usually related to getting something for nothing at someone else’s expense.
4. As my [German] Wife repeats to me, regularly, they hate us…always have. Notice that he went no closer to my “monarchic/post-monarchic” observation than a “So’s your Mother!” bleat in defense of anarchosyndicalism, which he would not defend from my charge of oxymoronism.
5. As best I can tell, the Euros are quite happy to have us take regular incoming from the jihadis…kinda like watching their neighbors house burn and going back to sleep. What they are in denial about is that they are sheep in the pen for the jihadis…and happy sheep for some reason.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:52 am 84. fnord:

Interesting discussion again. Ill take to note the comment on not all here being lizards, and appreciate the fact.

Having said that, someone above asked me what I hoped “to achieve” with coming on here and calling “y`all idiots”. Well, I came here because a man I respect highly posted a link to here at Small Wars Journal, a site I respect equally greatly. SO I was, and remain, quite shocked by the open muslim-hatred of this discussion, where sentences such as “Muslims demand right to rape infidel blonde females. fnord et al say: fOK. ” is allowed to stand unchallenged except by the horrible leftie. And equally, the hostility in the comments towards muslims, europeans, lefties etc. brings to mind what we here in europe call right-wing extremists. Unfortunately you seem to represent a mainstream in the US.

To me that is like someone saying that Jews drink blood of children and everybody just keeping quiet, being good germans and never mind crazy Adolf. And this is a general trend I find in the US right: The insane ones speak up while the sane ones keep quiet. Colin Powell did his party a great service by his endorsment of Obama, in my opinion, especially with pointing out that there is nothing inherently wrong with being a muslim. Just like in my country, the US has muslims fighting in Afghanistan. By quietly accepting such insane statements as above you piss on them and their service, and so on the US army itself.

As for the description of the European situation, several of you again come across as pure insane in your scaling of the problems. The US having to do terrorbombing of Hamburg to combat Al QUaeda stated as a possible scenario? Unilateral US actions without NATO? Abandoning the Geneva convention? In response to a bunch of criminal insane religious fanatics? To me, such reactions are a military measure of Al Quaedas sucess in terrorizing the US into irrational action.

As for the car-burnings in 2006, first of all that was a kind of special year and second, it says nothing on the average numbers of carburnings in other years. The ban-lieus of France have been hard for many years. But as I said, these have not been religious protests so much as social protests.

And finally, for honour-killings, I stand somewhat corrected. I spoke from a local perspective where about 75% of known honourkillings have been from the kurdish diaspora. The point of the initial poster was that “muslims demanded a right to do honourkillings”. The Islamic Council and the norwegian state are working hard and suceeding to an extent in combating the culture wich accepts this.

Im not calling all of you idiots. I write a bit with US military people over at Abu Muqawama, and have conversed with many intelligent republicans. But this muslim-hatred just smells rank bad to me, like masturbation fuelled by hatred. It makes me sorry for the ones who write it, just plain sorry. And to the ones in here with sanity left, perhaps its time you started taking that fight inside your own ranks. Instead of seeing Powell as a traitor and politics as a sport between teams, he might have shown you an honourable response to the increasing ugliness of your own party.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:09 am 85. fnord:

3case: “3. Lying is how leftys work. They lie consciously and unconsciously with the unconscious lying being chosen conciously, which is to say they tend to like ignorance as it serves their purposes, which are usually related to getting something for nothing at someone else’s expense.”

Right. If it makes you sleep at night knowing that everyone who disagrees with you are pathological liars who hate you anyway, sure sir. And never mind that the Bolsheviks exterminated people of my political opinion, you can call me a Lying Commie-Dhimmi faggot who likes to take it up the arse from muslims. Its been a pleasure getting my prejudices confirmed.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:14 am 86. Cannoneer No. 4:

Traveling in the East of Afghanistan; Jalalabad, The Khyber Pass, Peshawar, with a Small Rant on Reconstruction

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:05 am 87. Cannoneer No. 4:

I highly recommend the above link. Great pics.

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:07 am 88. Old Blue:

This thread is probably dead, but the original article to which it referred is one that bears a lot of discussion. I was surprised that Abu Mukawama treated it as gently as they did, really. I see very little in the article other than one man’s experience with the Taliban and nearly losing his head to his own stupidity.

Nir Rosen’s interview on “Democracy Now!” revealed a bit more about his character and leanings to me. One quote from the interview;

And it’s unfortunate that — Obama, of course, one of his major platforms is to withdraw from Iraq. That’s the bad war; he needs the good war. So Afghanistan now is the good war. He needs to prove, as a Democrat, that he too can kill brown people.

indicates to me an “anti-war” bent that must by any evaluation color his writings. This slant explains why his writings repeat insurgent claims and dogma as if they were facts.

Rolling Stone has generated some widely-read reporting on this war, mostly on the Iraq Campaign. Now they are weighing in on the Afghan Campaign as well, and it’s more of the same. Defeatism and how are we wrong.

Afghanistan was “the good war” in juxtaposition to the “bad war” in Iraq. That was a diversion to make opposition seem reasonable. Now the colors begin to show; there is no just war. We are wrong on all counts; murderers of innocents; oppressors of “brown people.”

Back to being baby killers.

Yet we cannot get a lick of objective reporting from Afghanistan or certainly Iraq. When the news is good, they simply don’t report from there. Only the bad, the loss, any setbacks; any difficulty on our part. That’s what makes the news.

Nir Rosen does not lay claim to titling his article, but he did write the words that have declared a Taliban victory in Afghanistan. Unless things have changed that drastically in the past six months since I left the place, I am pretty sure he and I were not in the same country.

Oct 21, 2008 - 9:50 am 89. Cannoneer No. 4:

Rosen and Rolling Stone volunteered to participate in a Taliban Morale Operation against the American domestic target audience.

“The real war is the media war”.

Oct 21, 2008 - 3:16 pm 90. Ernest Brown:

Yes, we can see that useful idiots like Fnord turn a blind eye to the anti-humanistic hatefulness of Islamic extremism, thinking that it is better to burn women to death than to hold said culture accountable for its acts.

Oct 22, 2008 - 6:58 am 91. Cannoneer No. 4:

Read Nir Rosen And The Temple (Mosque) Of Doom on Old Blue’s blog.

Oct 23, 2008 - 12:22 am 92. fnord:

Old Blue: Its true that the story is mainly the history of Nir Rosen nearly getting killed by the Taleban. So its not a great article from a military pov. It does however paint a picture of the security situation in Afghanistan where the enemy is free to move at will even in Kabul. Wich says a lot. It also points (indirectly) to the problems of the convoys using the new roads, wich were lauded as so important from a COIN centric pov and have turned out to be not so very much so. So for what its worth, a few interesting bits of info.

Ernest Brown: Blah blah blah, how do you hold a “culture” accountable for “its” acts? Does it, the “culture” live anywhere in the physical world? The US armed forces are currently training and equipping two muslim armies. It seems to me counterproductive for people to be howling “No dialog with islam” in this setting, no?

Its interesting that none of the blatant racists (or maybe culturalists is a better term) who wrote drivel about muslims wanting to rape blonde girls as part of their religion has been confronted by anyone in here. Silence indicates agreement.

Oct 24, 2008 - 5:04 am 93. fnord:

P.S. Good critiscism of the article, Old Blue.

Oct 24, 2008 - 5:07 am 94. aaronh.:

thank you

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:22 pm

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