47 Comments

1. whiskey:

Carbon trading in the cards as GM goes bankrupt?

Right. If Obama is monumentally stupid enough to pull that move, to benefit his cronies, the costs to the economy will tank it. He’ll be losing Congress in 2010, and facing real risk of impeachment.

Nov 8, 2008 - 10:13 pm 2. Paul:

Enron was one of the most enthusiastic promoters of carbon credits. That alone should be fair warning against doing this at all.

Nov 8, 2008 - 10:17 pm 3. elby:

This is absolute insanity. Absolute jaw dropping insanity. I suppose they can regulate my carbon emissions, since I produce CO2 every time I breathe.

This is nothing more than another scheme by the elites to extract more money from chumps like me.

If the Republican party wants to come back, they will have to do so as a populist party that is as much against big business, and Wall street as it is big government. Sarah Palin shows signs of this populism; she went after the big oil companies in Alaska. I think that is why so many people, including ‘conservatives’ as well as those in the McCain campaign felt the need to vilify her. They want to damage her politically as much as they can.

I look forward to seeing my heating bill double once again and gas prices to go through the roof. I’m shivering in my own home right now because I can’t afford to keep the heat on. I may not be able to afford the drive to work if these people get their way.

When, oh when, will the peasants rise up? Where is our stockpile of pitchforks?

Nov 8, 2008 - 10:21 pm 4. LFMayor:

re: #3 Elby,

Now is the time to be working on that stockpile of yours. There will be no political party allowed to position itself to take power from them, only token opposition given just enough air to subsist. Just like the rest of us. They are old and gray, this last hurrah paid out and they finally have the capitalist edifice right where they’ve wanted it for soooo many long years. This seat of power will not simply be voted away from them.

Wow! Am I fringe material or what? All this talk about “THEM”!

Nov 8, 2008 - 10:43 pm 5. EvilDave:

mmm, the 21st century version of Catholic Indulgences.
Oh, this will work well.

Nov 8, 2008 - 10:46 pm 6. mika2k1:

mmm, the 21st century version of Catholic Indulgences.
==

May God forgive us all for all the billions and trillions of petro dollars given the Jihadis, cause I would not.

Nov 8, 2008 - 11:12 pm 7. wretchard:

One of the least explored aspects of emissions trading is tax. Australian tax experts believe that large changes to the taxation system are required to accomodate a carbon market.

Rod Henderson, KPMG’s tax expert on climate change, said the tax system was unprepared for what was coming. He said the questions that needed to be addressed included whether emissions reduction could be deducted as a business expense, if carbon credits provided to employees would be subject to fringe benefits tax and how GST would be applied. … Mr Henderson said those who chose to offset their carbon emissions could be presently disadvantaged.

“The problem is that in the voluntary phase where there is no mandatory requirement to offset, there is a risk that people will say ‘well you’re incurring this voluntarily for some personal motive and unfortunately the law doesn’t allow that as a deduction’,” he said.

A private ruling by the Australian Tax Office has also raised doubts about the ability to offset travel.

In a case where a company paid for offsets for an executive’s travel it was determined that while the offsets were reducing carbon it was not the carbon that was “directly incurred” in the course of the work.

For a discussion of the taxation effects of green regulations, see the Wikipedia entry on Ecotax. “Green” is very much about money.

Nov 8, 2008 - 11:18 pm 8. Leo Linbeck III:

I don’t understand the extreme reactions of BCers to regulating greenhouse gases. The two most potent GHGs – carbon dioxide and methane – are real dangers to our civilization, our society, our way of life. It is imperative that we stop their accumulation, and stop it now. In particular, we must crack down on the most pernicious, most dangerous, most noisome, and most offensive of all GHG emission.

I refer to, of course, flatulence.

Flatulence (also known as farting, gas, cutting one, breaking wind, cutting the cheese, the flatus, tooting, ripping one, and playing the anal trumpet) is one of mankind’s dirtiest production processes. Every day, billions of human beings emit a mixture of CO2, CH4, and fatty acids that adds to our planet’s environmental burden. These emissions – many of them involuntary – bring tears of sadness to the eyes of fellow humans, and nausea to their stomachs.

But flatulence is not merely a threat to our environment. It is also a significant transportation hazard, as anyone who has been exposed to its effects will acknowledge. How many auto accidents have been caused by an SBD attack on a bus driver, causing momentary distraction and, in some cases, blindness, leading to a high speed collision and death? How many air travelers have become sickened by recirculating flatus? Too many, my friends, too many.

And then there is the fire safety hazard. As has been well-documented on camping trips through the ages, the flammable fart is the single biggest fire risk in the world. More than gasoline. More than “natural gas.” More than Keith Olbermann’s head after a Republican victory.

How much longer are we going to stand idly by as Western Civilization, yea, our whole way of life threatened?

But worry not; good news is on the way. With Obama’s election, and his commitment to limiting the spread of GHGs, we are at an inflection point in history. A true carbon cap-and-trade scheme will begin the slow process of healing the planet, and making long afternoon meetings after the company BBQ safe again.

Before long, we’ll see the true cost of flatulence reflected in the prices we pay – and those higher prices will start to drive down the pace of gas growth. Baked beans, cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, radishes, cashews, and lentil soup manufacturers will have to purchase credits to sell their evil goods. Sweet potatoes will be outlawed, except when combined with marshmallows in a baked form. And finally we will see balance restored to American farm policy, a policy that has long favored Jerusalem artichokes over the smaller (and misunderstood) Palestinian artichoke.

Just as importantly, the US Government will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade system to subsidize Beano for all households making $250,000 or less. Or maybe $200,000. Or $120,000. Whatever it takes to win support for this program.

So, it is time for us to come together as citizens of the world and take on this odiferous blight. And the good news is that we can harness the power of markets to help us in this noble quest. The last capitalist we asphyxiate shall be the one who sold us the oats.

Now is our time. Can we eliminate farts, and begin heal our planet?

YES WE CAN!

L3

Nov 8, 2008 - 11:58 pm 9. Doug:

Internet revolution that elected Obama could save Earth – Gore

Gore said Obama should announce a national goal of getting all US electric power from renewable and non-carbon energy within the next decade and spend the billions necessary to build an “electrinet” smart power grid.

“Web 2.0 has to have a purpose” Gore said.

“The purpose I would urge is to bring about a higher level of consciousness about our relationship to this planet and the imminent danger we face. We have everything we need to save it.”
—

I broke out my Healing Crystals to harmonize my conciousness with the Universe.

…unfortunately, I now am liable for taxes on the Carbon Content of the Crystals.

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:02 am 10. PA Cat:

LL3–

No more farting in the Lightworker’s general direction, eh?

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:04 am 11. Pascal:

Wretchard. It would be helpful were you to attach a little watermelon to mark posts such as this.

Perhaps also helpful: Adding one beside the names of both C4 and the mineral kid lest anyone overlook their hatred of humanity.

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:31 am 12. Cannoneer No. 4:

Leo, pull my finger.

Now what about the dihydrogen monoxide?

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:34 am 13. elby:

L3, I hear you. And to the greenies: I fart in your general direction!

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:52 am 14. Doug:

Obama Team Weighs What to Take On in First Months

Aides said the question was whether they could tackle health care, climate change and energy independence at once or needed to stagger these initiatives over time.
Profiles: The New Team

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:12 am 15. elby:

I have my feet planted in two different worlds. I live in an economically depressed area and my friends are mostly hardworking low paid peons of the lower middle class. Yet I work in a University, rife with academic lefties and artsy types. To borrow a phrase from Wretchard, I refer to them as ‘just so’ people.

I spent the today shopping with my daughters at our usual lower class haunts: deep discount stores that sell factory seconds and overstocks. I was happy because I bought some cans of enchilada sauce for 69 cents and also some boxes of my favorite tea for only $2.

It has occurred to me that members of the ‘just so’ elite don’t have any real problems, so they must make up problems to be worried about. They don’t worry about paying their heating bill, they don’t struggle day to day trying to make ends meet. They most likely do not deal with chronic illnesses or any other of the difficulties that life throws at a person. So they make up things to be worried about, like animal rights, old growth forests, global warming and the like. They can’t buy a cup of coffee without worrying if it is fair trade or not.

I recall a phone conversation with a good friend of mine a few years ago, a fellow member of the ‘just gettin by’ crowd. I invited her to bring her family over to my place for the day. She politely declined, telling me that she couldn’t afford the gas necessary to drive the few miles to my house. And this was back when gas was well under $2 per gallon.

I can guarantee that people like my friend are not worried about whether that $5 cup of coffee is fair trade, whether the cup it comes in is made out of 100% post consumer recycled paper, or whether the mix of beans is just right to bring out the perfectly desired flavor and whether they grew on the right angle of the mountain with the right amount of rainfall and are ground to the precise size and whether the coffee machine whips up the correct amount of frothiness in the froth on top.

However, people of the just so crowd are worried about that and so much more. They have little consideration that the vast wealth our nation produces gives them the luxury of worrying about staying ‘green’ and paying a premium for organically grown ‘fair trade’ coffee.

They have no clue that the policies that they promote will drastically reduce the quality of life of people like my friend and myself. Either that, or they just don’t care.

Sad, isn’t it, that the dollar store denizens don’t know what their betters have planned for them.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:13 am 16. Pascal:

Leo STOP. That’s cannonneer!!!

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:14 am 17. Doug:

Michael Crichton on global warming.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:17 am 18. Doug:

RealClimate
Michael Crichton’s new novel “State of Fear” is about a self-important NGO hyping the science of the global warming to further the ends of evil …

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:19 am 19. Doug:

Great New Pictures of Michael

Speeches, Including Global Warming Lecture

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:30 am 20. Pascal:

Elby, let me fix that:

They Some have no clue that the policies that they promote will drastically reduce the quality of life of people like my friend and myself.

The ones who have a clue really DO CARE; they simply deny how much or how!

You must have seen this already Elby. If not, google the church of euthanasia and the voluntary human extinction movement. Your colleagues will not criticize those groups. Oh, they may deny that those extreme groups really mean anything, but they are very well funded. And they applaud people like that creep Pianka at U Texas who professed that real terrorists would infect themselves with Ebola and then walk into major cities.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:30 am 21. Pascal:

damn. I tried to fake strike html and it wouldn’t take. Let me try one more time.

{s}They{/s} Some have no clue that the policies that they promote will drastically reduce the {s}quality of {/s} life of people like my friend and myself.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:33 am 22. elby:

Pascal, you are right. What better way to get rid of alot of carbon emissions than to get rid of the exess breathers. Quite a few of the ‘just so’ people are sitting in their boutique coffee shops sipping their fair trade coffee thinking just that.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:45 am 23. Doug:

Mini nuclear plants within 5 years to power 20,000 homes.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:52 am 24. mika2k1:

They have no clue that the policies that they promote will drastically reduce the quality of life of people like my friend and myself.
==

What quality of life?

Spent shells. Serfs in body and in mind. It takes 10 years for someone to change their mind. Maybe in 10 years you’ll remember my words.

Nov 9, 2008 - 1:56 am 25. Doug:

MORE CHARGES OF FRAUD in the Minnesota recount. “The election seems to be in the process of being stolen, and the media are either bemused or, as in this incredibly stupid AP story by Brian Bakst, preparing the battlefield for the theft. ”
—
Ingraham had a report from a lawyer friend in Ohio, said 80 out of 88 Precincts had NO GOP LAWYERS, and of course, Bush “Justice” AWOL, (across the Nation) while all precincts had Obama Lawyers.

Nov 9, 2008 - 4:27 am 26. 3Case:

Beans…beans…the musical fruit,
the more you eat, the more you toot,
the more you too, the better you feel,
So…eat your beans at every meal!

OMG!! Beans will be outlawed! That little childhood ditty, taught me and my Sister by my Canadian GrandMama as we giggled wildly, will fall under the “carbon fairness doctrine”…and we’ll have to purchase impudence indulgences!!!

Nov 9, 2008 - 4:45 am 27. Doug:

Poliwood with Lionel Chetwynd and Roger L. Simon

Nov 9, 2008 - 5:10 am 28. 3Case:

“…people of the just so crowd are worried about that and so much more. They have little consideration that the vast wealth our nation produces gives them the luxury of worrying about staying ‘green’ and paying a premium for organically grown ‘fair trade’ coffee.

They have no clue that the policies that they promote will drastically reduce the quality of life of people like my friend and myself. Either that, or they just don’t care.”

I call those people “the tragically hip”; have since the early ’80s when I read a piece on them in The New Yorker (a good magazine back then) which skewered the beejeezus out of those people’s sense of self and of their importance in the World.

Here’s my question:

If plants need CO2 to make O2; and
If we get to restricting CO2; then
How will we know how much CO2 to restrict without harming O2 production?

…ambling off in another direction…if we’re cutting off oxygen here on a global scale, doesn’t that make this carbon cap stuff the largest, most coordinated instance of autoasphyxia in history?

Nov 9, 2008 - 5:14 am 29. KennyB:

I would appear that reality is pushing it’s way into the green bubble.

Carbon Crash hit’s europe’s carbon trading scheme

Nov 9, 2008 - 5:21 am 30. lc:

The just so crowd is so….so……precious.

Nov 9, 2008 - 5:43 am 31. hdgreene:

We should look upon this as a teaching moment. It is an opportunity to show the nation why centralizing power in Washington is a bad idea: Why the Democrat’s “groupism” of the parts hurts the group as a whole. Such instruction requires patience; that’s why I’m not a teacher. Anyways, here’s my take.

President Elect Obama rocketed to the top by opposing the US war in Iraq. There is nothing wrong with that.

So what is wrong with opposing his war on the US economy? The neo-socialist war on free enterprise? Why can’t “save the whales” become “save our trade”? And the machinations of the Carbon Market (which we don’t need) be compared to the worst that an excess of corruption and incompetence ever brought to the Free Market (which punishes the sorts of wretched excess that governments so often reward).

The left opposed the malefactors of great private wealth. We can oppose the malefactors of great buearcratic power. The left opposed Christian “theocrats” reaching into our homes. We can oppose environmental Gaeacrats reaching into our homes, our bodies and everywhere else we inhabit (and even the areas we don’t).

We can safely oppose trashing an old power network that delivers power cheaply and — if the environmentalist would allow upgrades — reliably, only to replace it with a fantasy one that is expensive and unproven. This is like sending a good $25,000 car to the crusher (forgoing the resale value) to be replaced by a bad $50,000 car that is still on the drawing boards, can’t yet be manufactured and will end up costing 75,000. In fact, it may be exactly like that. It is, in short, a crash program to crash the economy. The only good thing here is that critics won’t have to make anything up or distort the truth when they point this stuff out (they need only persevere through persecution).

I even think being anti the neo-socialists war on the private economy will be patriotic. As the saying goes, “Do the right thing.” What do you think?

Nov 9, 2008 - 6:59 am 32. Cascajun » Carbon Trading and Moral Hazard:

[...] tip: Belmont Club addthis_url = [...]

Nov 9, 2008 - 8:22 am 33. bogie wheel:

“Soylent Green … is … peopllleeeeeee!!!!!”

Nov 9, 2008 - 9:35 am 34. bogie wheel:

Anyhoo.

It’s an international wealth transfer scheme. (1) Take undeveloped countries’ lack of development and manufacturing capability, (2) Make an “exportable commodity” of that lack of development, using the GW hysteria for cover, (3) Force/snooker developed nations into signing treaties that hamper their ability to produce without violating (deliberately punitive) emissions ceilings, (4) Include a “loophole” in the treaties whereby developed nations can “purchase” “carbon credits” from the undeveloped countries, (5) Sit back and watch the wealth flood out of the developed world into the undeveloped world, and, finally, (6) Fly to Oslo on your private jet to collect your Nobel Prize (onboard appetizer of Grilled Fig and Arugula Salad optional).

EvilDave has it exactly right. This is 21st-century secular man’s version of indulgences. Only it ain’t gonna be optional.

Nov 9, 2008 - 9:47 am 35. bogie wheel:

It has occurred to me that members of the ‘just so’ elite don’t have any real problems, so they must make up problems to be worried about. They don’t worry about paying their heating bill, they don’t struggle day to day trying to make ends meet.

My friend of 20+ years, who as I related in another post shouted me down on E+1 because she didn’t want any criticism of Obama to burst her happiness bubble, in that same conversation asked me (in a challenging tone of voice) how, specifically, I would be hurt under Obama’s economic plans.

I told her that, for example, if he and the Congress impose a cap-and-trade scheme on the energy industry, specifically coal plants, then that will, according to Obama’s own predictions, cause utilities bills to skyrocket. You would think that since we live in Southwestern Pennsylvania, the fate of the coal industry would have at least some resonance with my friend. But nooooooo. You know what her response was to my concern about my utilities bills going through the roof?

“You don’t make enough money for that to make a difference.”

This coming from someone whose salary doubled this year and who now has 2.5x my income. Which, being a conservative and free-marketeer, I applauded when her job change and salary increase happened. But I did tell her that she was the first person, ever, I had heard argue that poor and moderate-income people “don’t make enough money” to be impacted by dramatic increases in utilities prices.

I think she knew she’d put her foot in it, because she then changed the subject and started complaining about how much in taxes she is paying.

I told her that I agreed with her that her taxes were too high, and that this point was consistent with the arguments I have been making for years & one of the reasons I’m a conservative. But I reminded her that she’d changed the subject, and the point at issue was the impact of utilities prices on working-class folks and lower middle-class people like me.

Because she was the one who asked the question about how I would be impacted economically by Obamanomics.

“Is this about my income or about your income?” I asked.

“It’s ALWAYS about YOUR income!” she spleened on me. “It has ALWAYS been about YOUR income!”

(*sigh* So much for believing that she had posed a question with a genuine interest in hearing an answer from me.)

Still later in the conversation, she told me that she felt that for all these years I had been secretly resenting her because, in her view, I had always felt I should be making more money than she does.

I told her (honestly) that that thought had never once crossed my mind. She works like a dog for everything she has ever gotten, and there is nothing, in my opinion, to resent.

Nevertheless, in looking back on that conversation, it was pretty illuminating, psychologically. She’s displaying traits of guilty liberalism even though she came up from nothing and has more than earned what she now has. Not coincidentally, I might add, she has worked in academia her entire life.

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:09 am 36. Herb:

The One (pbuh) said that any coal fired plant built in his America would be bankrupted by the carbon taxes he wishes to impose
http://newsbusters.org/node/25829?q=blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry.
Interesting notion.
No ratepayer participation in the exercise. No effects on the rest of the economy.
No effects on growth.
Taxes will increase until the economy improves.
Change We Can Believe In.

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:11 am 37. steeple:

at last a topic that I know something professionally about.

BW34 hits in on the head. That Carbon trade is a commodity market, compared to the “hard” markets of metals, oil, etc…, is like the Presidential race was an open and fair debate. Commodity markets work because supply and demand ultimately allow the creation of a value that buyers and seller can live with. There is no natural supply/demand balance in Carbon. Already, Europe has shown that one can simply change the rules of the scheme along the way (oh, we didn’t give you enough allowances? here have some more. deadlines are too tight/lose? pls allow us to change them). forget about whether the science supports global warming or not.

cap and trade would work if 1) govt would adhere to the law and 2) there was no litigation to challenge the law. so i totally support the theory, but i just don’t think it can work given these constraints. this is disappointing to me in that i run a commodity trading group and we would love to be involved. but no way are we going to take any risk unless we could be convinced this is a true market not to be tampered with.

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:30 am 38. mika2k1:

It’s an international wealth transfer scheme.
==

Michael Hudson on debt peonage:

http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/28003

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:43 am 39. RWE:

Think what modern Leftism has wrought.

We have a Politically Correct virus, HIV, in which it is not possible to point out the manner in which it is spread.

We new have a Politically Incorrect basic element, Carbon. At one time Plutonium was Politically Incorrect, and the process was so successful in eliminating that artificially created element that the same approach was applied to carbon. Why? Well, the USA invented Plutonium and is the Carbon Capital of the world, with our coal reserves.

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:58 am 40. slade:

“You don’t make enough money for that to make a difference.” – boghie wheel (35)

There comes a point in every relationship when the IQ (Interest Quotient) must be balanced by the other IQ. I can’t begin to relate the number of stories from average-income people – including my family in a northern climate living on fixed income that was recently cut by a third in Oct before they sold out of their Apple Pie conservative holdings, and likely more when the pension bankruptcy sets in – who got notice that their heating bills would double this winter.

I predict an early stand-off between Obama’s working class platform and the Greens. Detroit is just the beginning.

Nov 9, 2008 - 11:50 am 41. RWE:

Hdgreen: “This is like sending a good $25,000 car to the crusher (forgoing the resale value) to be replaced by a bad $50,000 car that is still on the drawing boards, can’t yet be manufactured and will end up costing 75,000.”

You ever hear of the Space Shuttle Program? You have just described it, except subtract 3 zeros from the end of the number for the promised cost of the Bad Car and add 4 zeroes to the end of the final price of the Bad Car.

Does this happen? Oh, yes, if the Federal Government is involved it does.

Nov 9, 2008 - 12:08 pm 42. lc:

Obama will probably come up with something like Roosevelt’s Tennessee Valley Authority to help strangle, compete against (on a totally distorted playing field) and then replace coal-based (others too???) power generators. O and N(ancy P) are, after all, out to save the world.

I wonder….if I held my dog’s head under water long enough, will she grow gills?

Nov 9, 2008 - 3:37 pm 43. Unsk:

3case-

I don’t have the articles to reference, ( I think from Astute Bloggers) but:

A I believe scientists have determined the tropical rain forest grew much faster since 2000 as a result of the increased levels of CO2.

B. Similarly, some scientists believe one of the reasons dinosaurs were so big is that because CO2 levels were then were several times today’s levels, and that as a consequence vegetation on earth was much taller and plentiful.

Nov 9, 2008 - 10:15 pm 44. Tom Holsinger:

Congress will use this as another source of income, just as they did with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

With the same results for taxpayers.

Nov 10, 2008 - 10:50 am 45. aaron:

As a biochemist I’m appalled at the success of the AGW scheme. It’s success is entirely dependent upon ignorance of our world and the life in it.

In elementary school i remember learning about the carbon cycle. Now they don’t teach it, but show video’s such as Al Gore’s instead. Also in grade school I learned about photosynthesis. In college and grad school I learned even more of the details. But these are all ignored in the propaganda.

I had an aquaintance at a party raging about “all these people destroying the world” and cursing and screaming about it. I asked her what trees were made of. She didn’t know, but she guessed, “dirt”? I told her they were made out of carbon dioxide, which is converted to sugars, which are then used to build polymers, such as lignin and cellulose. Then I was the one cursed.

If CO2 were a real problem (I doubt it is…) then the solutions are obvious. 1) plant trees 2) kill people.

Unfortunately I think we’ll see more of #2 tried to remedy this issue. I’ve already seen reports from China on emission reductions achieved by executing prisoners.

I’ve been exposed to enough thermodynamics to understand that heat comes from some where. In this case the sun is the source of our warmth. Lots of people can’t fathom this idea and are mislead into believing that CO2 causes heating.

But why so much effort to promote dis-/mis-information?
Wretchard hit it on the head: MONEY.

I believe that it is an attempt, and not a clumsy one, to prevent the emergence of new resources and industries. Unless, they can afford the buy in…

This type of regulation will prevent severing natural resources, since most refining and processing requires heat/fire/fuel. This will prevent poor people and developing nations from harvesting their own resources, which can of course then be had by those who can afford the buy in.

This will prevent industrialization and development of the 2nd and 3rd world. With the spoils divided by the 1st.

It will also prevent people from heating their own homes, clearing their land, etc.

In my opinion the AGW scare is all about dominion, domination, subjugation, and a new twist to the age old practice of conquest.

But when I talk to the true believers, i try to convince them that option #1 is a better idea than option #2.

Nov 10, 2008 - 11:04 am 46. Jay:

I agree with Aaron about the goal to dominate.
Steeple, The mathematical models used to price derivatives will be used to price the carbon permits. The models are based on wrong assumptions about the stochastics. These models failed in the credit crisis and will fail more spectacularly in the permits market since the spikes in electricity demand are driven by weather and equipment outages.
The developing countries will ignore Kyoto. We will become impoverished by this scheme. Our strained economy can not handle the conversions.

Nov 10, 2008 - 2:03 pm 47. Ms. Know:

Well the left-wing illuminati here in the US wants to mess up our free trade, and he and his team of liberals will do so.

Nov 15, 2008 - 9:19 am

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