86 Comments

1. Annoy Mouse:

“Now maybe if Israel just withdrew from Gaza”

You beat me to it W though I think some blame can be attributed to GWB in there somehow.

Nov 26, 2008 - 3:59 pm 2. sirius_sir:

I just hope the Indian authorities don’t violate the civil/human rights of these alleged terrorists. Innocent until proven guilty, you know. And really, who’s in a position to determine guilt anyway?

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:00 pm 3. Casca:

God is in a position to judge; let him sort those we send out.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:04 pm 4. sirius_sir:

President-elect Obama has released a statement referring to the regrettable toll on “innocent victims”.

Hah, innocent victims. What a rube.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:08 pm 5. AZM:

Good news:
India (and China) will not be constrained by Western “niceties” when things like tis happen. Expect some serious damage to the individuals and — if history is any guide –to members of their family, their village, their network. The West may have moved away from collective and summary punsihment. Other parts of the world have not.

Bad news:
More and more “educated” Indians in the U.S. (esp. in California and NY) are offering up the notion that the problem is not Islam, but rather “virulent right-wing Hinduism” and that what we see here is an unfortunate reaction. In other words, it’s the Hindus’ fault. Almost all of the Indians who do offer this argument are Hindus. It is bizarre for those who know the facts. Entire volumes of pro-Islamic myths are being created by the activist crowd.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:30 pm 6. AZM:

Sorry for the typos.

tis = this
punsihment = punishment
myths = myth

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:32 pm 7. RWE:

“My guess is that the “the Deccan Mujahideen” is one of those Saturday-night special terrorist groups, good for one or two operations only…”

Probably. They very likely just shot their bolt. But a terrorism expert on Fox News just said that India has 175 known terrorist groups. That’s GROUPS. If each one does only 1 or 2 ops, well, that’s still a lotta dead people.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:42 pm 8. AZM:

Obama — he of the one-President-at-a-time-but-not-really school — will soon have a chance to sit down and discuss the grievances of the world with erudite and empathetic Islamic terrorists.

These ill-understood ambassadors of Eastern civilization are going to be so, like, totally swayed by Obama when he uses cool phrases like “root causes” and “legitimate concerns” and “audacious hope”.

Where’s that tingle when you need it?

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:44 pm 9. dan:

Damnit we need more intel! ISI-linked? What’s up in Kashmir?

Perhaps the US should rethink its classification policy. We should just tell Everyone, Everything. The game would be up for many, many actors, I’d think.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:50 pm 10. wildernesscalling:

AZM, The fault is Western Academia and secular elitist, they are the purveyors of “NO JUDMENT” in other wards there is no right and wrong, it started (late 18th Century) when Western civilization decided to rid itself of Christ, Christ is why Western civilization became the dominate culture and it was when they forgot how they got there (freedoms Christ brought to the people, thru expected high morals and standards which built the trust that great civilazations must have to excel) that they started the slide, it will end with the lions return.

Nov 26, 2008 - 4:54 pm 11. sirius_sir:

AZM, I concur with your observation about India not being constrained. I’m glad we are allied. It could be a very liberating experience watching them deal with these people, even though pc requirements forego–at least for now–our direct participation.

Nov 26, 2008 - 5:52 pm 12. fred:

If you guys want an idea of what Muslims and Islam have done in India, get and read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Jihad.” A good size section of the book describes what jihad did in India. Horrific. The British arrived just in the nick to time to stop more of the slaughter of Hindus by Muslims.

Just another dramatic event brought to you by the religion of piss.

Nov 26, 2008 - 5:52 pm 13. what is occupation:

islamic terrorists need to be shot in the head (if not dead) and then stitched into a pig skin and feed to the croc’s.

HUMILIATION of all terrorists alive and dead…

it’s time for pork rinds for allah…

disgrace the terrorists remains…

Nov 26, 2008 - 5:54 pm 14. Joe P.:

I like it (the pork skin thing).

The day is coming when the West may have to target their holy sites. What would these camel turds if Mecca was radioactive?

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:02 pm 15. wretchard:

Here is where we ought to be careful to separate the guilty from the non-guilty. It isn’t right to blame all Muslims for these acts, but it is correct to blame certain radicals for it. It’s important to make this distinction, otherwise you can’t make alliances with the innocent against the guilty.

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:12 pm 16. NahnCee:

I take it that the Indian public don’t habitually pack heat in order to defend themselves. Is it illegal in India if people suddenly decide that it might be a good idea?

Do Indian cops get to carry guns? Or are they as impotent as the British and the French?

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:20 pm 17. SeanLA:

fades into the mists of deniability

Mr. Fernandez I love your writing. Your sense of irony and ambiguity is always thought provoking, plus you have a good sense of humor!

Thanks!

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:23 pm 18. noprisoners:

Since the terrorists are demanding passports, so that they can kill or take Brits and Americans hostage, I believe that this should be considered a direct attack on the U.S. and England. Then, what to do? I’m not sure. However, I think that it should be recognized for what it is. Any ideas?

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:31 pm 19. cjm:

is that like making a distinction between good nazis and bad nazis? could the bad muslims exist without a sea of “good” muslims to provide them with cover and succor? where is the evidence of islam peacefully co-existing with others?

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:37 pm 20. wretchard:

I believe that this should be considered a direct attack on the U.S. and England. Then, what to do? I’m not sure. However, I think that it should be recognized for what it is. Any ideas?

Yes. Hunker down and survive. The War on Terror is over for the moment, as a practical matter, and my guess is that lots of other things are over too. It used to be that the future was bounded; the variance small, that things were predictable. Now all the boundaries have fallen away. We may sail through the next ten years right down the middle, everything normal. But if we zoom off to uncharted territory, there’s no telling where it will go. What’s changed is that things are really voltile now.

Nov 26, 2008 - 6:44 pm 21. noprisoners:

Wretchard,
I’m going to reread the “Three Conjectures”. You may be right that we should let it pass rather than open a new can of worms. However, I am afraid that, if we let this go, like we did with our embassies in Africa, there will be no deterrent effect.

This is the best blog that I know of. I look forward to your thoughts, and the comments, as an important part of my day.

Thanks!

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:06 pm 22. exhelodrvr:

wretchard,
“It isn’t right to blame all Muslims for these acts, but it is correct to blame certain radicals for it.”

But they can be blamed for providing a safe haven for the terrorists to operate in/out of.

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:08 pm 23. Barack Obama:

This is all just a big misunderstanding. Thank heavens I will be President in a couple months and can straighten everything out. Now Muhammed, you be nice to Raj. Raj, you be nice to Muhammed. Okay, all fixed now. See how easy this is? Uh. What was that Hussein? BOOOOOMMMM!

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:17 pm 24. enscout:

islam will always spawn these types of terrorist organizations. Its ‘holy books’, the koran & hadith, encourage it – and the society that results fosters development of angry, anxious young men.

Most ‘good’ muslims are simply unaware of doctrine of violence contained in these writings. They simply go through the motions of their religion. But they are trapped like a newborn that comes into a nightmare world infected with HIV/AIDS. Escape is almost impossible with no hope for the future.

A fastidious adherence to the islamic religious doctrine results in the cult of death we have witnessed recently. These extremists have always existed in islam – now their activities are enabled and magnified by globalization and petro wealth.

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:30 pm 25. enscout:

http://prophetofdoom.net/

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:38 pm 26. Agoraphobic Plumber:

“The War on Terror is over for the moment, as a practical matter, and my guess is that lots of other things are over too. It used to be that the future was bounded; the variance small, that things were predictable. Now all the boundaries have fallen away. We may sail through the next ten years right down the middle, everything normal. But if we zoom off to uncharted territory, there’s no telling where it will go. What’s changed is that things are really voltile now.”

Yes. One of my predictions panned out for this year…it was pretty plain to me last January that we’d have the start of an economic meltdown at some point this year.

I’m just as nervous now as I was then, but I don’t have anything concrete to pin it on. Back then, I sold 1/2 of my 401K and bought gold. Then this summer (just before the sh*t hit the fan) I sold the other half and paid off all my non-mortgage debt. Next week or the week after I’ll be ready to list my house, and when it sells we’ll move into a house with a much smaller mortgage, which will be paid off in a year or two, God willing.

I’ve got contingency plans to start my own business if necessary, and I’m trying like hell to reduce my financial exposure to uncertainty. Next I’ll start accumulating gold physical coins/bullion, store up enough money for a year of expenses and maybe start keeping several months of food and medicine on hand. I keep taking these steps, and my sense of foreboding keeps growing as I watch events unfold. I don’t plan on changing course until I see a reason to.

On the bright side…it’s really starting to look like Obama IS a liar after all. No Change so far and diminishing Hope. His cabinet picks are like a combo of what Hillary and McCain would have done. I had visions of Kucinich as SecDef, Harry Belafonte as SecState, and so on. Turns out he’s likely to be the least experienced member of his own administration. That’s gotta be a historical mark of some kind.

But it doesn’t mean we’re going to dodge the stuff flying out from the fan any better once it really hits.

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:45 pm 27. Kinuachdrach:

There must be some poor reporting here. Terrorists (sorry, gunmen) focusing on people with US passports?

Since everyone loves the US now that the Big O is in place (or so the media tell us), the only reason for ‘gunmen’ to target holders of US passports would be so they could join hands & sing.

Unless the media line about the world now loving Obama & the US is simply a projection of what is in their own heads.

Nov 26, 2008 - 7:48 pm 28. fred:

wretchard,

Jihad comes right from the example of the Prophet, the Qur’an, and ahadith. It is central – CENTRAL – to the cult of Allah. Islam most certainly is the problem. Most Muslims do not confront this central tenet of the cult they belong to. If they did, they would be a lot more aggressive in denouncing it. But they don’t. Either they fear the jihadis or they silently approve of it.

They are not our allies and never were. The ones who do not actively take part in the jihad support it through the zakat. You never hear Muslims protest the maltreatment of dhimmi peoples living in their lands. You never hear Muslims in the West protest the maltreatment of dhimmis in Muslim lands. They do not demand religious freedom – only demand extra “respect” and a privileged place for Islam. The truth is, they look down on us and most are smart enough to keep quiet about that prejudice.

In terms of specific acts, technically your admonition given earlier in the thread is legally correct. But if fails to account for the wider support given for the jihad and the mission to convert or subdue all those who are not believers.

I understand that in the wider policy community here in the U.S. it is getting harder to criticize Islam without admonition and ostracization. That’s why the Defense Department, the CIA, the State Department, and the FBI (the entire Homeland Security apparatus)blacklists and attacks people like Steve Emerson, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Andrew Bostom, Bat Ye’or, Ali Sina, Brigitte Gabriel, and Walid Shoebat. All of them criticize Islam and unequivocally put the onus on Islam and Muslims to stop the jihad and the violence of their cult of Allah.

India’s Muslims are among the most militant and violent in the Muslim world. The incidents of Muslim violence in India is under reported in the media and it’s partly the fault of the Indian government. It fears an escalation in the violence, and this is exactly the result the jihadis want: to make Indians thoroughly dhimmis in their own land.

Nov 26, 2008 - 8:15 pm 29. whiskey:

No Wretchard, if anything this points to the War on Terror EXPANDING.

WHAt will India do? Well after they’ve rounded up the terrorists, very likely fingers will point to Pakistan (they are already) and India might just figure the heck with it and launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Pakistan. Followed by full-out War.

With a massive dose of ethnic-religious cleansing. Regrettable but inevitable given the numbers of the respective groups and the anger of the vast majority Hindus. Classic over-reach. Also indicates massive Pakistani stupidity — in avoiding an all-out war with America they have got one (this attack has ISI all over it) with India.

It matters little what is said or done in the US, the primary actors will be the Indian military, public, and politicians. I suspect that the politicians will not be able to react to the public outrage with anything less than War. Which means a nuclear War. With millions dead.

India must of course contemplate a “sneak attack” via nuclear-commandos into their sensitive bases. This attack, which resembles Tet in it’s surprise and initial effectiveness, probably scares the hell out of everyone in India in the military and political circles. Since it’s easy to pencil in the substitution of AK-47’s with say, shipping container nukes. India has a substantial police force that is active and has confronted mass-casualty terror attacks before.

Nor is America out of this — the Muslim attackers singled out AMERICANS and Brits and ISRAELIS. So much for Barack HUSSEIN Obama.

Now Obama has a choice. Be more Catholic than the Pope in fighting terror, particularly Muslims, and adopt explicit anti-Muslim attitudes and language and policies regarding Jihad, or be called out as “soft on terror” and “a secret Muslim.”

Mickey Kaus has his “Feiler Faster” principle in which the internet and modern age speed up the pace of political events. I think this is generally true. Obama must face before inauguration the threat of Muslim Terrorists killing AMERICANS abroad. If he does not adopt a 100% anti-Muslim attitude, Republicans can and will attack him at will for being “soft” on terror and again, a “secret Muslim” quite likely with the modern equivalent of Nixon’s “whispering campaign” against Helen Gahaghan Douglas. Bonus — the Media is so in the tank for Obama no one listens to them any more and they have no credibility to check a “whisper” campaign conducted beneath the media in internet e-mails, phone calls, anonymous websites, the like.

Moreover, with the threat against the NYC Subways, and threat of nuclear Iran, we get the perfect storm: huge security threats that could kill millions of Americans by Muslim terrorists combined with economic meltdown. The model of GWB — throwing expensive military equipment and a few men at the Jihad problem, has been shown to be a massive failure.

Inevitably, we are inching towards, the “parking lot” solution. I think this conflict escalates, with Pakistan’s ISI fractured and factionalized and seeking to widen things by assisting AQ with nukes to attack the US.

Obama and Dems CANNOT afford to lose a city, that makes them a party as politically dead as the Whigs. The NEXT Republican will not shy away from “Hussein” and dead Americans at the hands of Muslim Jihadis as an issue, believe me. Because it would win him the Presidency (or her).

In short it’s not 1993 any more, and Obama does not have the Clintonian luxury of just focusing on the economy.

Nov 26, 2008 - 8:30 pm 30. whiskey:

Regarding Muslims, yes many innocents will die. This has always been the tragedy that could not be avoided except by “moderates” willing to use extreme violence to quell their extremists. Failure to do so, which was inevitable given the decentralized tribal structure of Islamic Society, guarantees a blood bath sooner or later. A tragedy, but inevitable.

Because eventually there is always a Poland. A concession too far.

As for Muslim conflict itself, it’s the polygamy. It makes every society that has it terrifically unstable, violent, and only able to function by committing some sort of violence and conquest towards an enemy. This is always the case when a few men have four wives and most have none (and no hope of any either).

What? Men killing other men over women? Since when is this not the human condition? Answer: only in the West, and then only recently, with Christianity.

Nov 26, 2008 - 8:34 pm 31. M. Simon:

Just heard O discussing the World with Bawbwa Wawa and he is still “Iraq was a mistake and a distraction” and HE the man is going after Osama and Al Q because once we whittle them down – why most of our troubles will be over.

Now the question is: does he believe it? Or is he lying.

One good thing: “my job is to keep the American people safe” – I don’t think he has a clue.

But you know? I’m beginning to hate him already.

Nov 26, 2008 - 8:41 pm 32. Tom:

Fred and whiskey

You both seem to have a handle on the situation. Well said.

RedStateInfidel

Nov 26, 2008 - 8:43 pm 33. Mike Sylwester:

Get away from it all. Vacation abroad.

People who sneer at the ideas that the USA must act to some extent as “the world’s policeman” and that we have had to fight a “war on terror” have no idea travel abroad might become very dangerous if the USA retreats into isolationism.

Young Americans and Europeans have grown up thinking that they can travel everywhere, the only limitation being their personal money. Furthermore, they must travel and study abroad in order to consider themselves to be educated persons. Do Ivy League colleges even accept applications any more from high-school students who have not traveled abroad? Remember the contemptuous astonishment that many people expressed when they heard that Sarah Palin had become a state governor and then was nominated for Vice President even though she had not traveled abroad.

The young people who voted so enthusiastically for Barack Obama because he promised to surrender in the War on Terrorism as quickly as possible might live to see a time when travel abroad again becomes very dangerous, especially for Americans.

Nov 26, 2008 - 9:03 pm 34. AZM:

If the “peaceful” ones will not show timely courage in policing and reforming their own communities (think of millions of “ordinary” Germans who unquestioningly morphed themselves into the industrial and military stock of Nazi Germany) they must necessarily bear the shameful and bloody burden of being policed and destroyed from the outside. This is not blood lust. This is tragic common sense.

It is not a man’s brutality alone that dehumanizes him. It is his unwillingness to know and confront evil that dehumanizes him too. This is true for everyone.

Nov 26, 2008 - 9:08 pm 35. coisty:

whiskey: I suspect that the politicians will not be able to react to the public outrage with anything less than War. Which means a nuclear War. With millions dead.

The Indian elite is reportedly as PC on Islamic extremism as western elites and it is also as committed to suppressing Hindu nationalism as Europe’s elite is to combating ‘fascism’.

Nov 26, 2008 - 9:23 pm 36. whiskey:

But that leaves Coisty a “gap” between the elite and pols who will seize the moment.

Lets review: India has been shown helpless to a surprise attack of significant scale. Imagine the same thing except nukes in place of AK-47s. I am sure every populist pol can.

Make that statement, and push it as hard as you can. Instant power.

Nov 26, 2008 - 9:28 pm 37. what is occupation:

15. wretchard:
Here is where we ought to be careful to separate the guilty from the non-guilty. It isn’t right to blame all Muslims for these acts, but it is correct to blame certain radicals for it. It’s important to make this distinction, otherwise you can’t make alliances with the innocent against the guilty

I stated:

Islamic TERRORISTS.

This has NOTHING to do with non terrorist moslems…

This has EVERYthing to do with captured islamic TERRORISTS.

Their bodies must be humilated

Nov 26, 2008 - 9:28 pm 38. heather:

I’ve listened to a good part of the mumbai tv coverage of these events. Some 10 or 11 different places were attacked; at least one car drove around shooting people at random on the street; a couple of people, at home in their own apartment, were killed as bullets buzzed around; it seems that the bad guys came into the city from the water side in boats; they have an amazing amount of ammunition, including RDX; the city was literally a warzone for much of the night, with bullets, grenades, bombs and fires in the heart of the business district.

Quite the show for what some people described as ‘very young’.

They attacked a hospital and a railway terminus, but also large hotels and a club popular with foreigners. But they weren’t shy about killing off Indians. They managed to kill a number of policeman, including some high status ones.

Nov 26, 2008 - 10:06 pm 39. fred:

No one wants to talk openly about the elephant that’s been in the room for 1,400 years. Remarkable, given the size of the dung piles that have been accumulating during that time.

Today, across all nations it is the political, economic, and cultural elites who don’t want to talk about it. Lots of ordinary folk want to, want to probe where it comes from, and with enough evidence of what the beast wants want to haul in the 50 caliber sniper rifle to kill the beast.

Between the Stealth Jihad and the openly military one, I figure that the recent election has the enemy convinced that Americans do not have the stomach for this fight. There’s some truth in that; you can’t blame the enemy for drawing the correct conclusions about the mood and mettle in the West.

Nov 26, 2008 - 10:07 pm 40. Wadeusaf:

Fred,
What are you going to do about 85 million elephant feeding people? It is a step by step inch by inch process, unless we just nuke everything…including ourselves.

Pakistan’s ties to the pigheaded sausage for brains gunmen in Mumbai lies not finding the political will to remove the fanatical. KSA’s ties lie in not hog tying the extremes, encouraging the spread of the wahabbi sect beliefs to our and their own detriment.

Pakistan’s past policy toward India in fact encouraged extreme thinking along Pakistan’s eastern borders, fed by the fanatics perceived successes against the Soviet Union.

So now human beings of Pakistan will have to face the extremes inhabiting it borders east and west and the extremes of its citizens. India to gain the greatest advantage of this sorrowful day, must insist that the human beings in the Pakistani government and the human beings of Pakistan rid themselves of these vile extremes.

Nov 26, 2008 - 10:39 pm 41. fred:

wadeusaf,

It would appear the primary targets of this attack were not Indians themselves, but the Westerners, specifically American and British citizens, in the posh hotels of Bombay. I don’t think this is primarily to do with India vs. Pakistan.

Wahhabism IS the original and pure Islam practiced by Muhammad and his immediate successors. It’s not a bastardization of Islam. It is traditional Islam. I know this goes against the grain of the template you have, but there it is.

Believe it or not, eight years ago I used to think the way you do on this matter. However, the more I delved into Islamic scriptures, theology, and traditions the more I realized that we’ve been scammed by the traditions spawned by Edward Said and now carried forward by his best disciple, John Esposito of Georgetown U. I’ve met Prof. Esposito before, many years ago when he was on the faculty of The College of The Holy Cross at Worcester, MA. I was a young Jesuit novice attending an ordination of the newest Jesuit priests. I met Prof. Esposito at a social function. There was something “wormy” about the man I could not put my finger on. And today, lo and behold, he gets lots and lots of dough from the Saudis to defend Islam against its critics here in the U.S. He’s a scumbag and an academic whore.

Nov 26, 2008 - 10:56 pm 42. marymcl:

The breaking news ticker at the Times of India claims “US intelligence officials” are among the dead at the Taj.

Nov 26, 2008 - 11:10 pm 43. Captain Ramen:

Is this the manufactured international crisis Joe the Gaffer was blathering on about? One nuclear armed country incredibly pissed off at another nuclear armed country, with the latter teetering on the edge of bankruptcy? God help us if the ISI’s fingerprints are all over this one.

Nov 26, 2008 - 11:25 pm 44. NahnCee:

I’d like a few more details but really, so far as has been reported, I just don’t see where this is any more of an outrage towards America OR England OR Israel OR Australia than the Bali bombings were five or six years ago.

If the terrorists were asking about passports, couldn’t they just as easily be doing a quick census trying to decide the best place(s) to use up their limited bullet supply? After all, one dead American tourist must be worth – what? – 10 or 20 dead Hindu Indian natives in the headline factor.

Or that blown-up hotel in Egypt, frequented by Israeli’s and British. Or the other blown-up hotel in Morocco. Why is it a shock that these lunatics are targeting places that white people frequent?

I just think it’s ludicrous to be talking about an act of war on America.

Nov 26, 2008 - 11:36 pm 45. M. Simon:

44. NahnCee,

Consider this a probing attack. Obama issues “regrets”.

Before his 4 years are up we will be in a full scale shooting war. It is not certain where. Likely Pakistan. Where Obama promise to go after….

Nov 27, 2008 - 12:01 am 46. whiskey:

ISI’s fingerprints HAVE to be all over this one. An ISI-backed attack to kill Americans and Westerners? In India, along with top anti-terrorism Indian officials?

The scale, scope of it, reminding a lot of people of the Dashiell Hammett story “the Big Knockover,” can only point to ISI.

Who else could stage over 100 gunmen, with total surprise, and deadly effect? Weapons and ammo had to be moved, the gunmen staged into the area, targets surveyed and habits and locations of top anti-terrorism police in Bombay noted. This is not the hallmark of AQ, it is the hallmark of ISI.

In case Obama missed it, Pakistan has in effect declared War on the US through the ISI. Or significant parts of it. I expect supplies through Khyber Pass to be shut off next.

Nov 27, 2008 - 12:38 am 47. Wadeusaf:

The question IMO, is not whether ISI has its fingerprints all over it, to me it is whether ISI is truly representative of the government of Pakistan or the Pakistani People. That makes a huge difference in responding with effect.

Fred,

I am not at all disagreeing with your take on the fundamentals of the problem. But just as alternative sects to that wahabi religion arose, and it is a matter of interpretation, so must any reformation occur. I disagree with your approach to a solution, and favor one which will not resort to mass murder.
They believe one thing you another, how do you propose to reform them. You cannot, they must reform themselves or we can never trust the result. It is very much a counter insurgency operation, Iraq writ large and will take a tremendous amount of wisdom and good sense on their part. Leadership and example especially in performing such a radical surgery is more favorable to imposing a system of beliefs or ideals. We are not talking about evil people, just evil choices.

I know you can see the difference.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:00 am 48. bob:

This is not the only thing going on in India. Alas, while Hindus have a general reputation for tolerance, in one Indian state, sorry forget which one, there has been some severe persecution of the local Christians going on for some time. They are hiding in the forests, the Hindufundis threatening to cleanse the whole place. There seems to be some Marxists in the area that have killed some Hindus, and in turn the Christians are getting blamed. But, you don’t hear much about all of this, though the casualties have been much higher than the current subject. Voice of the Martyrs and other Christian outlets have the story.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:03 am 49. bob:

Somehow I’ve changed from Bobal to Bob but that’s ok.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:04 am 50. Wadeusaf:

“It would appear the primary targets of this attack were not Indians themselves, but the Westerners, specifically American and British citizens, in the posh hotels of Bombay. I don’t think this is primarily to do with India vs. Pakistan.”

Just like the insurgency in Iraq had little to do with Sunni v. Shi’ah? Don’t kid yourself, if the host country cannot provide for the safety of foreigners a great deal of business goes elsewhere. India suffers perhaps more especially if a wedge can be driven between the Indian government and the US or India and the Brits. Cooperation and collaboration are made difficult when Hindu’s can be made to act like the Spanish and it is not a given how the people of India will react to this terrorism. Some Indian citizens interviewed on NDTV blame the Indian Government. It is truly amazing how twisted the logic seems to my ears.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:12 am 51. Son of Max:

Sorry to butt in – I usually lurk and learn…

No doubt more information about the attackers will emerge over the next days, but to me it doesn’t have the smell of Pakistan/ISI.

I would hazard that many of the attackers will be local (non-Kashmiri)Indian moslems, with training and material from LeT or one of its bastard offspring.

Any ideas about the change in tactics from hit and run bombings? Something reminds me of Tet but I can’t see the motive. It’s a message. What’s the code?

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:13 am 52. Subotai Bahadur:

Granting that this is purely conjectural. ISI involvement is not proven at all yet. But allow me to throw out a thought to ponder. We have the possibility of war breaking out between India and Pakistan. That war may include a nuclear exchange, in which case the Subcontinent’s own version of the math in the Three Conjectures comes into play. Indeed, if this is not the specific provocation that leads to war, there may be another a little farther down the road.

This war will have as a primary motivator, religion. It will not be purely the nation-state of Pakistan -vs- the nation-state of India. There will be a primary component of Hindu -vs- Muslim; especially after a nuclear exchange.

What would be the most effective target if the Indians wanted to destroy Islam? Islam is a geographically centered religion dependent on Mecca. Indeed for many Muslims it is an article of faith that Allah will not allow anyone to attack Mecca. The loss of that city would be shattering to Islam.

I looked at what data was available on the Indian nuclear arsenal. It is, as can be readily understood, optimally configured to deal with Pakistan, with the beginning of an ability to deter China. The longest range operational missile in the Indian arsenal is the AGNI III. With the new pattern warheads developed after 1995 [total payload weight 500 kg -vs- the previous design payload of 1000 kg] Mecca would just barely be out of range from Indian territory.

However, it turns out that India has another launch capability not normally considered. At Sriharikota north of Madras is the Indian equivalent of Cape Kennedy. There the Indian Space Research Organization launches satellites and space probes. Their standard launcher is the well tested Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle. A variant of that just recently launched India’s first space probe to the moon. The Chandrayaan-1 weighs 1380 kg and was launched into an initial orbit of 255 x 22860 km. If you can launch a payload equivalent to your warhead and RV weight to an orbit of 250 km perigee and pick the orbit, you have a functional ICBM with sufficient accuracy to hit a city sized target. The Indian 200 KT payload is 500 kg.

It is possible for the Indians to reconfigure one of their space launch vehicles to carry a warhead to destroy Mecca. For the very first time the adherents of Jihad may have provoked someone who both has the ability to destroy their religion AND who does not have moral scruples about it. Indeed,someone who has an active incentive to do it.

I have to note, that if they did so, it would have an effect on our own struggle for survival. I realise that with a new occupant in the White House whose autobiography states that he would “stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”, the United States would not do so; but it would even be to the advantage of any nuclear country who is dealing with internal Muslim insurgency to perhaps add their own warhead to the mix if there is a Pakistani-Indian nuclear exchange. Not at all likely, but it shows that the Jihad and the survival of Islam hangs by the thread of the tolerance of the enemies they are attacking.

This piece probably destroys any misconceptions anybody has that I am a “nice” person.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:34 am 53. wretchard:

This piece probably destroys any misconceptions anybody has that I am a “nice” person.

I knew a lady once who ran a shelter for battered women. She told me something I’ve never forgotten: that a significant percentage of battered women keep going back to be battered again. Some kind of mental condition. I’ve realized since that the human race is no less irrational. There’s no use getting started with the tough talk because if anybody were serious enough to start hitting back precisely at the bad guys — not indiscriminately, mind you, but with precision — once you had the terror masters on the ropes then all kinds of guys would step forward to save their miserable hides. Lawyers, politicians, you name it. They’d call it off. Then things would go quiet for a spell. There’d be another outrage and there we’d go again.

So while the logical and humane thing is to fix this thing so that only the guilty, not the innocent, are prosecuted, I’m beginning to believe the world is too stupid for something so simple: that we’re just going to blunder living through one Groundhog Day after the other until some day some truly horrible events drive people berserk and we through a mindless spasm where innocent and guilty alike suffer. When you think about it, the history of warfare is the history of collective insanity. The logical thing would have been to string Hitler up in 1937 or 1938. But no. The way humanity really solves its problems is through stuffing people into gas chambers, incinerating cities, sending armies of million of young men who’ve never met each other in their lives into mortal combat. Nice ain’t got nothing to do with it.

When Edward Murrow was taken through a death camp, he met a French writer he knew from before the war. Murrow said, “you’ve got a lot to write about”. The Frenchman replied, “in the first year you think you have a lot to write about. In the second year you don’t want to write anything any more.” The saddest thing about the human condition is that we know that we don’t have to be battered, yet keep going back for more. Until one day we snap, like some battered woman, and knife the malefactor in a homicidal rage and go to the chair for it. It doesn’t have to be that way, even now. There’s still time to wise up and go after only the bad guys. How I wish history worked that way.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:51 am 54. Wadeusaf:

“Any ideas about the change in tactics from hit and run bombings?”

Chechnya. Seattle, and Argentina(?). Israeli citizens were also targeted in the Mumbai attack.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:51 am 55. L:

The problem is not “radical Islam”. The problem is Islam, period.
The problem has been Islam, period, since the Battle of the Yarmuk River in 636 AD.

Islam has been exposed to the tolerance and the science of the modern West. Islam has not undertaken any kind of Reformation of itself.

Islam can not be persuaded. So Islam must be defeated, through war. If that takes the form of genocide, so be it. Islam has not shown mercy to others. Islam is not a religion of mercy. So let no mercy be shown to Islam.

The West can choose death to itself, or death to Islam.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:58 am 56. Son of Max:

Wadeusaf

To enter open combat with the authorities is to send the message that you no longer skulk. That you have the manpower and materiel to win on the streets. As in Chechnya.

Not necessarily an honest message, of course. But why send it now?

Wretchard, thank you for your usual clearsightedness. And poetry.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:59 am 57. Son of Max:

Let’s hope that this isn’t true.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_attackers_may_be_Pakistani_nationals/articleshow/3764564.cms

Nov 27, 2008 - 2:11 am 58. Wadeusaf:

L,

the best reform would be…Christianity.

Nov 27, 2008 - 2:14 am 59. Wadeusaf:

Argh, not Chechnya…Nord-Ost, theater by Chechnyans. My bad on specifics.

I am praying now that you’re right about LeT. That leaves room for hope.

Nov 27, 2008 - 2:27 am 60. Manny C:

Wretchard –

According to CT blog, Deccan Mujahideen is Lashkar e Toiba/SIMI who have recently called themselves Indian Mujahideen.

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/11/indias_financial_hub_mumbai_un.php

Nov 27, 2008 - 3:23 am 61. what is occupation:

Since we are not nuking mecca…

Take the terrorist bodies, stitch them into a pig skin…

feed them to the crocs…

use what the moslems fear….

do not attack the noncombatant moslems…

take the terrorists and humiliate them in life and in death…

Nov 27, 2008 - 7:17 am 62. fred:

Wade at #58,

Christianity is NOT the problem. Are you a Christian? A practicing one? One who has a modicum of theological and biblical learning under your belt, and who daily rededicates himself to The Golden Rule (Islam does not have this and mocks it)and the Ten Commandments. If you are, surely you understand how, for example, my Church (Roman Catholic) has undergone quite a few transformations over the centuries – most mainly for the good of the Church and humanity. We’re not perfect.

We don’t teach, and never could it be pinned back to, a Gospel of “Slay the unbelievers, wherever you may find them (Surah 9:5).

We don’t have a Dhimma, whereby non-Catholics are second-class citizens at best, subject to a crushing and humiliating jizya.

We don’t call Jews “apes and pigs.”

We don’t espouse an ethics of expediency and the double standard of living under sanction for our deeds done to each other, but whatever we do to non-Catholics (or non-Christians) is fine.

We’re a long way from the religious wars with the Protestants. We still have our differences, but the overwhelming policy is for us to emphasize the much that we have in common.

We are not hostile towards modern science. We embrace it. The Vatican actually has a lively, active group of scientists and thinkers from diverse backgrounds and traditions, sharing and discussing their views and discoveries.

We have a tradition of the Just War Doctrine which places limits on how we are to wage war. For example, we DON’T have the view of “there are no innocents” as the Muslims have. Non-combatants are, for the most part, supposed to be left out of the equation of battle metrics to be achieved. We did not practice this strictly, because the conditions of war do have their own dynamics. We could bomb German and Japanese factories and other infrastructure necessary for war. In fact, if by the rest of your non-de-plume here (usaf) you are somehow connected with the U.S. Air Force (proudly, I have a nephew who is going on down to Lackland at San Antonio in February)you surely know that we got stuck with the daylight raids over Germany to bomb military and industrial targets, suffering horrendous losses in order to try to achieve precision bombing. We took appalling losses to our airmen until we got the P-51 for escorts later in the war. Muslims – and their clerics/scholars give sanction to this – deliberately target civilians in order to spread terror and to demoralize us. Unlike Muslim armies, when we enter conquered enemy territory we don’t start building mountains of severed skulls (as the Muslim Tamerlane did in India).

Warts and all, Christianity has brought far, far more good to the earth than bad things. But our post-modernist academic rot likes to construct a narrative that is exaggerated and one-sided, in order to slander and diminish Christianity.

We are a faith that is always in reform. We are open to the Holy Spirit, speaking to us in new insights throughout history. And it’s a DIALOG, not a dictation. Most of Christendom considers its scriptures divinely inspired, NOT a divine dictation.

So, if you want to know what Muhammad’s sock puppet deity, Allah, dictated to Muhammad’s brain, go read the Qur’an in its entirely. Thence to some English translations of ahadith.

Islam IS the problem. It is true that only they can reform themselves and we cannot impose it upon them. However, we are under no obligation to tolerate their jihad against the kafir. Our preference is for, as wretchard would like, precision operations to try to pry the guilty away from the innocent. But this may not always be possible and if the existential threat from their warrens is huge and urgent, we may not be able to bring in the surgeons. We might need to be butchers. I prefer the former and not the latter. But there is something to be said for collective guilt, when the corruption of the enemy is so pervasive and not excised by their tribe.

Nov 27, 2008 - 7:50 am 63. programmer:

Wretchard reflects;

The saddest thing about the human condition is that we know that we don’t have to be battered, yet keep going back for more. Until one day we snap, like some battered woman, and knife the malefactor in a homicidal rage and go to the chair for it. It doesn’t have to be that way, even now. There’s still time to wise up and go after only the bad guys. How I wish history worked that way.

programmer grumbles:

We are constantly bombarded with tradition, custom, parables, koans, advice, etc. that teach, no, not teach, actually demand that we believe that every human has equal intrinsic value; that even the darkest heart contains a small bright spot of good that with proper nurture and understanding can blossom into a wondrous gift to mankind. We are taught that we must seek to forgive and understand in the face of overwhelming grief. Our rational minds struggle to cope with the evidence of our senses and the contradictions of our taught (and expected) responses. We are constantly pounded with “facts” that our own observation time and time again proves to be untrue. How do we remain sane? Wretchard, if you figure that out, would you let me know?

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:00 am 64. marymcl:

The problem with separating people out from the choices they make is it avoids any real confrontation with the problem at hand. The more evil the choice, it seems, the greater the likelihood that no-one will be held accountable in any way.

I see this all the time at work. Nurses, social workers, counselors of all kinds are trained to focus on behavior as if it were something only incidental to the actual person, like a basketball or favorite piece of clothing. What Wretchard says about battered women is true. I would add that oftentimes those women who leave their partners find themselves a different relationship with the same dynamics. The children are the real victims in these scenarios.

The point is just because people don’t realize what they’re doing doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for it. I don’t care what the lawyers say – either way, the victims are still victimized, the dead are just as dead.

Speaking of not realizing what’s what, yesterday when this news was first breaking, I mentioned it to my boss and another co-worker. As we were looking at the computer screen and seeing the first accounts coming in, they both started clucking away ruefully about guns. If only they didn’t have the guns. Too many guns in the world, oh dear me. That kind of thinking scares me more than anything.

In the run up to the election Obama gave out with a lot of tough talk about Pakistan, didn’t he? Well it’s front and center now, precious.

One last thing about choices – one thing I’ve learned from the many Muslims I’ve encountered through work is that these people are as fatalistic as they come. Everything, and I do mean everything, is the will of God, or so they tell me. Which is another way of saying they’re not personally responsible for anything.

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:15 am 65. marymcl:

I almost forgot – Happy Thanksgiving everyone

http://tinyurl.com/56ox5j

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:27 am 66. RWE:

“I’ve realized since that the human race is no less irrational.”

Well, it isn’t really the whole human race, just the “reasonable men.” I said on 9/11/01 that our problem would not be defeating or enemies but dealing with the “reasonable men.” The ones who would say “Come now, be reasonable, you can’t just invade a sovereign nation just because they present a big problem for you.” Or “Come now, be reasonable, you can’t just round up people from around the world who look suspicious to you and incarcerate them without even a trial.” Or “Be reasonable, you can’t just ignore the desires of major nations of the world when they oppose your plans.”

In the 1930’s the Reasonable Men were horrified when the British Military and the German General Staff suggested assassinating Hitler. They thought it quite reasonable a few years later to burn Dresden to the ground.

The Reasonable Men said in the 1920’s that “Gentlemen do not read other gentleman’s mail.” By 1945 they thought it quite reasonable to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It’s not really the whole human race that is irrational, but instead those who think themselves paragons of reasonable rationality.

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:42 am 67. fred:

I, too, forgot something. HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYONE.

Watching the Macy’s Parade on t.v. No terrorist incidents. A very good day, weatherwise. I’m the cook this year and got all under control.

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:45 am 68. Mongoose:

As I said on anther thread,

Happy Thanksgiving to all at BC.

Nov 27, 2008 - 9:03 am 69. fred:

Evil is both a quality and sinful act. All of us are sinners. Every one of us, but there are degrees to which each person, culture, organization, cult, and every sort of human organization can be given over to evil. And there is such a thing as a person and an organization that can be characterized as thoroughly evil. Most of us here are men and women of some experience and education, having lived long enough on this earth and interacted enough with humanity to understand this. We’ve all had the unpleasant experience of meeting some person who one can easily detect the stink of corruption thoroughly pervading.

I think there are more saints in this world than ones who are given over completely to the other side. But the evil ones sure do a lot of damage, don’t they?

Nov 27, 2008 - 9:05 am 70. Wadeusaf:

Fred,

First happy thanksgiving, in the spirit of the tradition from which it comes.

Second, (scratching my head on this one) I think you misread my response re: reforming Islam. Christianity is a good alternative, IMO. The Pope still moves with the grand march of humanity.
The Abraham Lincoln Quote of the day, “I destroy my enemies when I make them my friend.” It is not always possible, but it is doable. There comes a time when for us forgiveness is the better part of valor, at the very least giving hope to those who are hopelessly lost in their bad choices gives us a wedge a weapon and an opening to destroy the vile thing. That thought can only excuse actions is true enough, but actions can be moderated by thought, planting doubt, inserting fear, diminishing confidence. Take away the perceived moral high ground of the terrorists will reduce the effectiveness and support for terror pigs. Forgiveness is a tool it is not an excuse for inaction. Fatalism is not an excuse either.

Nov 27, 2008 - 9:08 am 71. Peter Boston:

I wonder if Socrates would still say that people do not willingly do evil if he had known about Islam?

Nov 27, 2008 - 12:07 pm 72. NahnCee:

fred – you mis-read Wade. He’s saying that Christianity is the solution to Islam, not a further problem. THat we need to get out and proselytize and convert and then the whackadoodle Muslims would self-heal.

Although after reading Christian responses to the issue of Prop 8 and homosexuality, I’m now firmly convinced that Christianity is just as big a mental defect as Islam is.

Nov 27, 2008 - 12:16 pm 73. fred:

Wade,

Sorry about that. I did misread your comment. But the points I made still stand. Muslims are much better off if they apostacize and convert to Christianity.

NahnCee,

If I had lived in California I too would have voted to keep marriage as defined between one man and one woman. I don’t have a problem with partnership contracts for gay people. None at all. I just think that we are entering a slippery slope now when it comes to marriage. I don’t hate gay people and I still think that we are very early in our understanding about WHAT exactly happens in nature for homosexuality to occur. Since my tradition respects science, even if it remains doctrinally stuck in another place, at some point I think science is going to know a lot more about homosexuality. Here’s my reasoning: if it truly is mainly something hardwired into a minority of people and we understand the mechanism, at the very least we cannot, in good conscience, consider it sin, which is a voluntary act. Therefore… how can a good God create something so “disordered?” It means that there are variants in nature that make no sense to us, but they exist and we have to adjust our understanding of natural law.

I’ve known probably about a dozen gay people. Not one of them chose to be homosexual. Why would anyone choose to be something that society persecutes or looks down on? It makes no sense to me. Every one of these people, in frank conversations, told me that they are what they are and made no conscious choice to be attracted to the same sex. I cannot imagine being so afflicted. But if any of my children happened to be gay, I would never reject them and I would love them all the same. I cannot imagine God behaving more irrationally and more cruelly than we do. Therefore, in His mysterious purposes we need to revise our understanding of natural law ethics and take a different approach to the few biblical references on this matter.

My point, NanhCee, is that we Christians are all over the map in this matter and we’re not the screwballs you think us to be. But right now we think marriage should be anchored to a traditional understanding, because to alter it has far reaching consequences in law that you really, really don’t want to go down the road towards. The traditional understanding of marriage also protects women from all kinds of deviant alterations. Hell, for what it’s worth, given the deviancy of the culture, it would even protect animals. And I’m not going to say any more than that.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:23 pm 74. Mongoose:

Fred: they are right, you are misreading Wade. However, I sympathetically understand how you might be piqued into Catholic apologetics. Happens to me weekly.

I quite agree with your response, it is just towards the wrong accuser.

The mollient of conversion will not happen, however, in the time frame that is useful to us — it would take centuries.

A conflict of civilizations it is, and rightly, you understand that faith is the major source and buttress of both civilizations. If Lepanto is any guide, best we wound them to the point where they implode for another few generations.

In the current global economic order this may not be possible; we may have to seek conquest or actual domination of some fashion or another, or, if America truly is diminished in the world, we will have to contain them in some fashion and bide our time.

It all seems to come down to the American people. Are we the people that we where? Do we wish to be the dominate power in the world? Are we up to our legacy and potential, or do we want to be another province in the New World Order that the socialist tranzis are foisting on us.

We seem to be all that is left of the West as a vital force in this world.

We shall see. Obama and his “backers” will attempt to pull us in another direction altogether.

This is certain: To prevail we must love our civilization and fight for her with all the fervor and valiance of those Christian oarsmen at Lepanto.

Do we have it in us? Events are in the saddle.

Nov 27, 2008 - 1:47 pm 75. Mongoose:

Fred: The prohibition against homosexuality is not a matter of interpreting some “obscure” biblical passages or “revisiting” natural law. It is clearly articulated as a sin in the bible, and is a unambiguously proscribe by the Magisterium of the Church throughout the Christian millennia (a fact that has been reaffirmed by the current Pope). It is not merely a matter of situational or pragmatic secular ethics. Doctrines on sexuality are key to the understanding of mankind’s relationship to God as mirrored through the relations of the sexes toward each other, particularly in marriage.

No one is “rejecting” homosexuals anymore than are alcoholics, fornicators or adulterers rejected by the Christian community. What is being rejected is the sin, the natural propensity toward it on the sinner’s part notwithstanding. To countenance their sin would be the true cruelty (and sinful in and of itself).

Surely as a former seminary student you understand this.

Christianity, BTW, is the wellspring of the West and the source of most of her blessings and finest accomplishments. Our departure from it is the chief reason that our civilization is in such disarray; we will have to find a way to return to it if we are to prevail against Islam. Christian faith requires no apology.

Nov 27, 2008 - 2:36 pm 76. fred:

Mongoose,

I am fully aware of the Church’s doctrinal position on homosexuality. I’m not saying I’m wiser. All I am saying is that I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS HAPPENS IN NATURE. It has been observed in other species as well. Purely from a scientific viewpoint, I would like to see if we can learn more about WHY this happens. Look, I never consciously wired myself to be attracted to females. I am who I am. It just is. There was no moment of choice and no rational discourse within myself whereby I deliberated, “Well, Fred, what do you find more attractive and what will you pursue?” It’s just ridiculous to probe beyond that. Personally, I’m grossed out by depictions of homosexual sex. My wife is too. But that is who we are.

I think my scientific curiosity about this is part of my overall personality and my intellectual bent is a gift from God. So, to ask these questions, to my way of thinking, is no affront to God. If God IS rational and our order is suffused with rationality (but it seems not completely)our seeking to understand is not a bad thing.

So if homosexuals are people who simply find themselves as being what they are, then why does this exist? People of faith do not have to abandon rational inquiry into these things. What the Bible says about something is not necessarily the final word about it. Some Catholics and Christians think so, but I’m not one of them. That does not mean that I’m one of those people who thinks that one should easily throw out traditional teaching willy nilly. I have too much respect for tradition and doctrine to think that way. Being generally a Thomist in my outlook, I respect scientific inquiry and it has its proper place.

Nov 27, 2008 - 7:45 pm 77. Ruby Red:

Mongoose said, “The prohibition against homosexuality is not a matter of interpreting some “obscure” biblical passages or “revisiting” natural law. It is clearly articulated as a sin in the bible, and is a unambiguously proscribe by the Magisterium of the Church throughout the Christian millennia (a fact that has been reaffirmed by the current Pope).”

Okay, good luck with your plan of going to heaven by means of never having sex with someone of your own gender. I hope you don’t have plans for this Saturday. One time in Exodus a guy was picking up sticks on Saturday and he was stoned to death. It’s a sin clearly articulated by the bible, you see.

Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Nov 27, 2008 - 8:11 pm 78. Dave:

@Subotai Bahadur Your #52

I will definitely concede that India has the potential to hit Mecca with an ICBM. However,
turning potential into achieved capability is not a given. The system you descibe would need to be set up and tested with dummy warheads several times to assure reliability.

And for the operation you describe I would definitely want two or even three missles
on the way in short order. Just to make sure.

Failure is not and cannot be an option here.
Try to hit Mecca and fail and the other sides’
sense of invulnerability will escalate to unbelieveable proportions.

Which leads us to the other consideration.
Are you sure, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a successful hit will in fact either eliminate or transform Islam?

What I said about the consequences of failure
is, I think, actuarily certain. Miscreants have always gotten too big for their britches whenever they have escaped deserved retribution through no talent of their own.
This has held true both individually and collectively since time immemorial.

There are certainly examples of PSYOP strikes having the desired effect on enemy actions. Doolittles’ Raid comes to mind. However enemy transformation is not so confirmed.
After both Hiroshima and Nagasaki only about half of the Japanese movers and shakers were willing to call it quits.

If you are right about Mecca being THE nerve center for aggression, then nuking the place
might well be the thing to do. The “collateral damage” would be acceptable if the act prevented another 1000 years of strife and bloodshed. Or even 100 years.

But would it? The $64 question.

Your thoughts sir?

Nov 27, 2008 - 9:31 pm 79. fred:

This is but one more episode among tens of thousands of acts of organized jihad during the last 1,400 years of Islam’s history. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what THEY understand perfectly well. Yet large swaths of our civilization simply refuse to gaze upon the truth and draw the proper conclusions from it.

The problem will remain in place until we face the truth and know that we have to aggressively contain the Ummah and try to impress upon it the disastrous consequences of their intransigence.

Nov 27, 2008 - 9:37 pm 80. NahnCee:

“So if homosexuals are people who simply find themselves as being what they are, then why does this exist?”

Personally, I think they’re the evolutionary next step after we get past the necessity for gender-based reproduction. Which we have.

Nov 27, 2008 - 11:36 pm 81. Subotai Bahadur:

#78 DAVE

I apologise for the delay in answering. Our Thanksgiving gathering was across the state, and we only got back early Friday morning.

At the risk of further damaging whatever “nice” reputation I might have, I will agree that an ideal strike package would be more than one shot. I would envisage 4 specific targets inside the KSA; ground burst, jacketed, and designed to make the targets unsurvivable for humans for generations. Multiple payloads per target would be desirable, but already you would be dealing with problems of fraticide, which more payloads would complicate. Three of the 4 targets are, however, in close enough proximity that any one detonation would suffice as none of them are in any way hardened.

I am assuming a certain mininal standard of competence for the Indian armed forces, especially their planning staff. I do not know how to say “SIOP” in Hindi. But I assume that their equivalent of our Joint Staff does. Indian planners [and their Pakistani counterparts] are operating in a strategic pressure cooker. They are, and have been, engaged in what is for them a strategic nuclear stand off, with minimal to non-existent warning time from a hostile launch; whereby their nation could be destroyed in a matter literally of a very few minutes. Their planners have to be placing an amazing level of priority on anything that would enhance a deterrent effect. Every additional deliverable payload, every additional kilometer of strategic reach; is a matter of national survival. Keep in mind that both Indian and Pakistani personnel do not lack dedication to that goal.

I think that it is reasonably certain that some bright Indian staff officer has noted existence of the ISRO’s boosters as a strategic asset. Approaching the problem from the other side, I am sure that they have looked, and are looking, at possible Pakistani targeting strategies. Once again, their Joint Staff personnel assigned to ponder what the Pakistanis might be considering in the way of a counterforce strike have to have considered that from the Pakistani point of view,ISRO is a strategic threat and have targeted Sriharikota for destruction. Thus, if Indian planners are earning however many Rupees they get per day [and in fact I am sure they are as very few things concentrate the mind more than the imminent prospect of being on the receiving end of a nuclear strike] the use of the launch assets of ISRO has already come under consideration.

If such has come under consideration, IF it has not been rejected [not a high order of likelihood there] further planning to take advantage would not be either apparent or easily detectable. The Indians already have a standard single warhead delivery bus design. While there is some talk of an Indian MRV, that is not confirmed. They have constant access to the design specs and known flight parameters of the space boosters. It would not take a huge project to create a modification of the design of the bus and guidance package since most of the design problems would have been already solved. Fabrication of one or two such packages would not be impossible or too costly. The trajectory, targeting, and launch parameter calculations could proceed both as part of the planning process and discreetly.

You would only need one or two, because ISRO would only have that many boosters at most in a state where preparations for launch could be rushed. It would not be an ideal strike, but you go to war with what you have, rather than what you wish for. From the Indian point of view, it would be another weapon to grasp at the last extremity, even if it was not an ideal strike package.

Do not underestimate either the ingenuity or the intensity of Indian military professionals at that level. Americans get their impressions of the nature of Indians from Bollywood and “The Simpsons”. These people operate under the pressure of a threat to national survival that easily matches that of US nuclear forces in the 1950’s.

I also have to note that the dynamics of the Indian-Pakistani nuclear standoff are such as to place a premium on a counter-value first strike, as neither has a survivable second strike capability to deter the other, or a sufficiently large enough arsenal to depend on counterforce. That tends to encourage thinking outside the box; especially when both national and religious survival is at stake.

The matter of the effects of a successful strike on Mecca is of course conjectural. I have to note that there is a sociological difference between religions that view a discrete location of a Diety as being critical, and those who view a Diety as having passed through a discrete location. Historically, if you destroy that location; with a religion of the first type, the religion tends to fail; q.v: the power of the Druids after their sacred groves were destroyed by the Romans, the Aztec religion after the Spanish destroyed their temples, or indeed innumerable cases where the temples of the local gods were destroyed by conquerers. Conversely, if Muslims conquered Israel and destroyed the Tomb of the Rock or the Church of the Nativity, it would not invalidate Christianity in the eyes of its believers. The ‘exception that proves the rule’would be the Hebrews after 73 AD. However, they had a degree of cultural and religious coherence and identity that a very divided and fractious Islam cannot match.

Of the “5 Pillars” of Islam [the Haj, Prayer 5 times a day towards the Kaaba, Ramadan, alms,and the Shahada]; the first 3 are Mecca dependent.

The matter of what happens if the strike fails is something that would not concern Indian planners. Before such a strike is launched, India would believe itself to be at the metaphorical last ditch. The survival of the nation and the Hindu religion would be at stake. Just as they would not be considering the collateral benefit to the West if militant Islam were to collapse; they would not care if Muslims became more arrogant if they failed. It would not matter if they were dead. We have to take ourselves out of the geopolitical mindset left over from the Cold War, and realize that they have their own dynamics driving their actions.

I mentioned in passing another nuclear power taking advantage of an Indian-Pakistani nuclear exchange to do that strike itself. That got me thinking further on the concept of false flag operations in this venue. We have been concerned, at least those not on the political Left in this country, about the problem of a nuclear terrorist strike in this country with no one taking credit. The set of actors who fail the cui bono test would be so large as to completely paralyze our soon-to-be-installed regime into inaction. However, as I noted, the strike on Mecca would have a similarly large set of actors which would possibly tempt nuclear powers to take advantage of an Indian-Pakistani nuclear exchange.

Let us consider possibilities. All of the non-Muslim nuclear powers have ongoing domestic Muslim insurgencies at different levels of activity; and therefore a motive. However, Russia and China are actively supporting the existence of Islamic nuclear weapons, and external Islamic terrorism against the West. The US to be blunt, has neither the Machiavellian mindset nor the will to do something like that, especially with the incoming regime. Israel may have the will, but lacks the ability to do it covertly. The launch of a ballistic missile is detectable by radar and satellites. The only non-ballistic means available to reach that target with an Israeli weapon would be by one of its few cruise missile capable submarines launching a POPEYE TURBO cruise missile. Getting one of those submarines on station in range, and maintaining it there would be an extremely non-trivial problem. Not feasible. The Brits are merely waiting for conquest. They lack the heart to resist anyone; and the sole contest will be whether they are conquered by Islam or the EU before they cease to exist. Submission to one or the other is in their future.

That leaves the French. They have both the capability AND they are sufficiently A-moral to do something like that if it occurred to them.

False flags are not solely an American problem.

I will close with this thought for the reader. While I have no knowledge base to operate from here; is it not possible that to an Indian planner pushed to the last nuclear ditch, that a Shia Iranian Muslim nuclear capability is as much a danger to whatever remains of India after the exchange as a Sunni Pakistani nuclear capability? I offer the concept of the 1500-1800 mile range circles of the Indian AGNI-III missile with the 500 kg payload, laid over a map of Iran showing its nuclear research, political, and religious centers. And I add the concept also of false flags to complicate the issue.

These are not discrete world problems. What happens there has the potential to affect us in a deadly fashion.

I apologise for the length of this. I am a wordy bugger, and I felt that I needed to get all this out if I was to answer Dave’s questions. Wretchard, I do not know if this busts some sort of bandwidth/length limit you might have. Feel free to delete it if it does.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 28, 2008 - 12:45 pm 82. Dave:

Thank you Subotai.

I was just wondering if you thought that
India—-or anybody else—–could
“Uncle Billy” the Islam problem. Wish there was that in the wings somewhere but does not
seem to be.

You give a good presentation on what might come to pass although we all hope it does not.

The only nit at which I can pick is that I see no advantage in rendering any place unihabitable after the initial radiocatvity wears off. Better to set up an all-religion
academic center and tourist attraction there
just to get the point over that specie survival is, or should be, the universal morality.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:10 pm 83. Subotai Bahadur:

Once again, I’m not being a nice person. The rationale for rendering the place uninhabitable would be two fold. First, it would prevent a resurgence of militant Islam from trying to rebuild and start the whole thing over again. Second, as a object lesson to those who would try to repeat the same tactics against the world. Keep in mind that the area by its nature is not hospitable for being inhabited. Absent certain springs and wells, primarily the well at ZamZam, it is not going to support a population. Seismic shifts post strike stand a good chance of shifting the water flow.

I have to note that it looks more and more like the ISI is involved via a previously outlawed Muslim terrorist group called Lashkar-e-Taiba. Two vessels with ties to Pakistan have been seized and apparently were used to land some of the terrorists and their equipment. Pakistani nationals are among the terrorists killed and captured. There is apparently an effective terrorist logistics infrastructure in place in Mumbai, as it seems that ammunition and explosives were pre-cached in the hotels. Reports that there were only a couple of dozen terrorists can be discounted. The fighting is still going on even after a number have been caught or captured, and the scope and area of the attacks would indicate a much larger number. If it does not appear that they catch or kill a total of 75-100 Tangos, it is distinctly possible that there will be a round 2 of attacks.

If SIOP’s are not being updated now, what do you want to bet that they will be if there is another attack?

I don’t know if Indian public opinion will tolerate this attack without a counterattack. One Indian writer has reached the end of her tolerance: http://southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers30%5Cpaper2946.html

We did not wish to be ‘enemies’, but since we have been constructed that way, should not we take our roles as ‘enemies’ a bit more seriously? I cannot speak the language of peace and love anymore. If the war is forced upon us, we will have to accept it.

A second attack, by this group or another, may have devastating consequences.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 28, 2008 - 8:48 pm 84. Subotai Bahadur:

RE: # 83 above

Hmm. It seems that my HTML italics did not work completely. It should have gone back to normal after “have to accept it”. The sentence following is NOT part of the article quoted.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 28, 2008 - 9:02 pm 85. NahnCee:

Geez, Subotai — does your lack of italics fluency mean that Ruby is more talented than you?

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:23 am 86. Subotai Bahadur:

Depends on which particular talent is the subject of discussion. I will readily admit that my HTML-fu is weak.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:03 pm

Sorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.