218 Comments

1. Outboard:

Careful wretchard, or you’ll force Ruby Red to post yet another smarmy, italics ridden, screed.

We. just. can’t. risk it.

Nov 28, 2008 - 2:38 pm 2. sirius_sir:

If I described myself as holy, a prophet or a messiah I’d be laughed out of town.

Hey, there’s an idea.

Nov 28, 2008 - 2:44 pm 3. Herb:

I must disagree with Taheri.

Islam cannot change. Allah hisownself gave it to Mohamet and it has miraculously come down to us today unchanged. I dont think the jihadists are particularly radical. I think they may be better muslims than the rest.

When he set up his shop in Mecca or Medina or whatever town he stared in the people that were in that part of the world were pagan, Christian or Judean. When the muslims were done in the 1200’s they had each been presented a choice: Islam or death. Still at it. See what Zawahiri said today.

Nov 28, 2008 - 3:07 pm 4. Bob W:

Deadly terror attacks in the East, shopping stampedes in the west, and yet there is still reason to Hope this season, no?

The actions taken by many of the hotel staff and guests to resist, and to help one another during the attacks in Mumbai, is something to take note of.

Nov 28, 2008 - 3:28 pm 5. Bonzo:

I no longer believe radical Islam is the problem. Leftism, socialism, communism, state-ism, spoiled-brat-ism is the problem. Green on the outside yet red to the core.

Totalitarians never give up power politely. It is not too late but it is darn close to being too late.

Nov 28, 2008 - 4:53 pm 6. Ruby Red:

Wretchard said, “the Mumbai attacks were aimed at any possible easing of tensions with India, which Barack Obama hopes to build upon to get Pakistan to crack down on al-Qaeda.”

If everyone realizes that, then the solution is obvious: work to defuse tensions between India and Pakistan. Don’t call for mobilization and for India to turn into Bush’s America circa Dec 2001. But we won’t see that. It’s too womanly. Adrenaline addiction and cable TV war footage trumps cool diplomacy every time.

“Today it is often enough to describe oneself as holy, a prophet or a messiah to blind the world to the true character of banditry.”

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden’s stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians

Nov 28, 2008 - 4:59 pm 7. Tony:

The obvious anomaly for a water-borne attack is the huge amounts of ammo (and troops?) that the attackers have deployed over the past 2.5 days.

Wretchard MUST be correct on this Involved in the operations were men who had placed explosives at selected points.

There’s no way water-borne infantry could have carried enough ammo and grenades on their backs to sustain this assault for this long.

Scary implications of deep penetration into soft, free societies, again.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:07 pm 8. Andrew X:

Ruby, you are a stone freekin idiot, and I very rarely get personal in these forums.

Bush did not say he was told by God to invade Iraq, idiot dickweeds like you SAY that he said that, and keep repeating it until people believe it. The BBC said that Bush said what you said he did to the Palestinians. Then the Palestianians said “What the hell are you (BBC) talking about, he never said that.” The White House said he never said that, and all of a sudden the BBC story disappeared down the memory hole, never to be mentioned by them again, but never apologized for or corrected, so now it stands, discredited but beleived and propagated by the members of society with 2 digit IQ’s.

Bush never said that. You are lying. You have nothing to add here. Go away.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:13 pm 9. JFSanders:

I really shouldn’t reply to your agitprop RR. But I will this time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html
“In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.” And “now again”, Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, “I feel God’s words coming to me: ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.’ And by God, I’m gonna do it.”"

I don’t think you have a direct quote of Mr. Bush saying this. Just a couple of questionable people who said he told them. That my dear is hearsay and to use it like it is true is just like telling a lie. But what else would we expect of you.

@Tony,

I think in one of Wretchard’s previous posts someone posted a link to an article stating that the “Baby faced jihadis” had command and control rooms at the Taj and the Obrie (sp?) hotels that most likely contained resupply ammo and weapons.

Jim

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:32 pm 10. Andrew X:

JF, just to clarify, the Palestinian Authority clearly and specifically said that Bush never said any such thing, as did the White House.

It simply did…. not…. happen.

But that will not stop the idiot brigades in their laughable “reality-based community”.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:35 pm 11. JFSanders:

Andrew beat me to it. Dagnabit..

Jim

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:37 pm 12. hanoi paris hilton:

Yo, Ruby…

Quite apart from the content of your postings, I believe the convention is to put the quotation in italics and to put your original response in plain (Roman) text. That alone would make your participation on this board at least a hair less obnoxious.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:38 pm 13. JFSanders:

You are quite correct Andrew.

Tony it wasn’t in a previous article it was in this one. Attributed to Bill Roggio.

My apologies for the misdirection.

Jim

See how that works RR? Now you try it.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:40 pm 14. Ruby Red:

Bin Laden declared a jihad against America, her citizens as well as her soldiers. In response, Bush declared a crusade against the terrorists and any nation or group which harbored them or supported them. “Every nation in every region has a decision to make,” he said in a speech to the nation laying out the Bush Doctrine. “Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.” And he predicted certain victory because “God is not neutral” and America was the promoter of “infinite justice”. Which means divine justice. In fact, Operation Enduring Freedom was originally called Operation Infinite Justice until some Christian clergymen warned Bush that he was committing the sin of presumption. Until Bush the internationalist new world order interventionist “trilateral commission” type discourse was always rejected by conservatives. His achievement was to slap a Protestant eschatological whitewash on it and make it palatable to the rapture-ready set.

Nov 28, 2008 - 5:55 pm 15. All Credit To Their Bravery But…. » The Ethereal Voice:

[...] to the Indians, the killers seem to have pretty good command and control. According to Bill Roggio (h/t The Belmont Club) they had command and control rooms set up ahead of time. So that gave them an [...]

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:01 pm 16. Cannoneer No. 4:

Keep in mind, the hostages were not taken for negotiating leverage. They were taken 1.) because they were American or British in (terrorists’) best case scenario, and 2.) to prolong the siege on Mumbai to occupy multiple entire global news cycles with hot ongoing ops with the destructive power of a few dedicated suicidal maniacs on every television screen.

This was a Global PSYOP executed locally with live ammo. With Dead Indians and (intended anyway) American, British (and others) and Jew hostages to ensure prolonged Global exposure. — Steve Schippert

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:12 pm 17. NahnCee:

Can we agree that everyone of the babyfaced gunmen were the equivalent of a suicide bomber? That they went into the operation knowing they were going to die?

Have the Indians captured any teenaged terrorists to ask questions of? I’ve heard that they’re finding dead terrorist bodies, but none captured alive. I’m betting that they off’d themselves rather than be taken alive.

I wonder why they morph’d from dynamite belts to AK-47’s. How many people could 20 terrorists with dynamite belts have killed?

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:23 pm 18. twobyfour:

RR, during the 20th century, there was a meme promoted by the left that

1. US is supporting dictator bastard in other countries because they are “our” bastards, which then was pointed out that it leads to all sorts of cans of blowback.

It is wrong, left said.

So, Bush changes the tack, and decides that

2. the best way to get a country stable and non-threatening is to replace a totalitarian dictator with democracy.

It is wrong, left says.

3. Bush could have done nothing.

It is wrong, left would say.

Conclusion: If any of these 3 actions were elected by a Democrat, it would never be wrong.

Left was never interested in non-intervention. They just object when someone else is doing it because it is always for the “wrong” reasons. Lefty reasons can justify intervention because they are the correct reasons.

Hypocrisy is leftism’s middle name.

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:30 pm 19. Doug:

Has anyone pointed out yet that with the
Walmart Stampede of Death®
we have now matched and exceeded our Muslim Brothers (with their yearly religious stampedes) in Absurdity, if not in Magnitude, of Tragicomic Human Folly?

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:37 pm 20. JFSanders:

Nahncee, They have a couple of them alive. According to a British paper they are British citizens of Pakistani descent. They are claiming that they are members of LeT.

Jim

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:38 pm 21. lc:

“…Pakistan’s new president, Asif Ali Zardar, practically threw away…”

How very, very neat; and what bizarre timing.

The attacks by that well-trained, well armed (and highly motivated) group of murdering savage bastards certainly required lots of lead time….

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:38 pm 22. Doug:

Better yet, sirius_sir:
Act really serious when you do it.

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:40 pm 23. CPT. Charles:

I second Roggio’s instincts on the matter. I KNOW how much ammo weighs, and how quickly you go through it. There is NO way in hell an individual can carry enough munitions to conduct a 20+ hour op.

No kiddies, this was a first-rate op…more so because they copied every major aspect of how we do it.

My gut instinct: they had multiple TOC’s [tac ops centers], pre-positioned logistics points, OPs [Observation Points] sited at every major target. They went straight for the crisis leaders and struck their primary and secondary targets with flawless timing, maximizing the amount of ‘defusion’ by the local security assets. Please note that there was NO effective counter-attack until additional assets had been imported. Also note that shutting down the cell phone network didn’t slow the bad guys down…I suspect they had secondary lines of communication set up thru the internet.

The good news is that this op isn’t cheap or easy to set up [not to mention 'data-mining' this model could help as a counter-measure]. The bad news is that the bad guys now have a perfected working model to go with. The US and EU would do well to study the Mumbai op as though their lives depended on it. This time they used AKs and grenades, next time they might ‘plug-in’ something nastier…a lot nastier.

Just my two cents, for what it’s worth. Oh yeah…dittos to Andrew X’s stance on RR…

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:47 pm 24. Andrew X:

Doug – How DARE you compare crazed, nut-case idiot stampeding Hajists with crazed, nut-case, stampeding Wal-Mart shoppers? It’s a WHOLE different thing! The Hajists are doing it for some crazy religious thing, and the Wal-Mart shoppers are doing it for, um….y’know…. X-Boxes and I-phones and HD-TV’s and…..um…. cool stuff….y’know…. things……and stuff….

Way different, man. I’m totally offended…. and stuff…. =:-O

Nov 28, 2008 - 6:49 pm 25. RAH:

The raid was executed with skill and ability. The question was what was their goal? Pure disruption? Propaganda coup with Jewish, British and American Hostages?

Whar was the long term goal, to disrupt the rapprochement of India and Pakistan?

The raid ultimately failed. No hostages to use for propaganda a la the Iranian hostage taking during Carter’s administration.

The Indian military decided no negotiations, just kill the raiders. I have to agree with that tactic.

This is not a tactic that would work well in the US. Most ports have a lot of burly dock workers that fight back very fast. Security and American natural response to fight back from the civilian population.

Many US civilians are armed all the time. If a shootout occurs they take cover and shoot if needed or let the police handle it. We do have a good security response.

This worked becasue it came into a tourist port with low security and complacent people.

The question is was this operation sucessful from the raiders point of view? Maybe if the terror and disruption of 4 days is the goal. Otherwise I would say no.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:05 pm 26. ledger:

I would say well orchestrated. It make you go hum, who would do this?

[The Australian]

‘The Intelligence Bureau, India’s domestic spy agency, said it had detained a Muslim militant, Abu Islami, found to have checked into the five-star Oberoi/Trident hotel four days before the rest of the attackers landed in Mumbai by boat.’

‘”He used the room to store explosives” including 40 hand grenades “and weapons for a prolonged operation”, a top Intelligence Bureau official told AFP on condition he not be named. “We are asking him who supplied the weapons, the explosives, the Chinese-made grenades. He came in much before the main body of the terrorists landed by boat” on Wednesday evening, he said.”‘

See: Mumbai weapons stashed before attack

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24724263-12377,00.html

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:05 pm 27. JFSanders:

Andrew just remember these are Long Islanders. Pretty much the same people just different clothing (some of them anyway) when they go stampeding. And if you ever saw them camping out in front of Frye’s to get the first edition of WOW Death warrior upgrade and went up close you could see the same fanaticism in their eyes.

Jim

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:07 pm 28. Doug:

Andrew Obviously has nefarious ties to Malcom X!

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:08 pm 29. whiskey:

The problem with this operation, which has Pakistan’s ISI all over it, is that it is likely to escalate conflict beyond what Muslims have anticipated.

India has so far reacted with restraint. As I’ve noted in previous threads, there are powerful forces urging Indian leaders to be done with restraint and inflict a “permanent” solution to the Pakistan problem. Which is simply killing about half of Pakistan.

It would be expensive. It would cost many, many Indian lives, much money, and much capital in the Pakistani reaction. HOWEVER, from the point of view of the Indian leadership, it has many powerful attractions. Not the least of which is the pain would be minimized over time, outright war of destruction of the enemy would prevent embarrassing questions being asked over what measures the Congress Party failed to take, and giving the opposition the ability to vault into power over the weakness and appeasement of the Congress Party towards both Pakistan and internal Muslims. Add to it the certainty that the attacks WILL be repeated only “worse” and that the repetition of the attacks will cause massive fleeing of Foreign Direct Investment, and outsourcing money and a massive collapse of India’s economy (driven by FDI) and the idea of a short, violent war to kill about half of Pakistan and ALL of it’s infrastructure is attractive.

The Mohammed tactic of constant raids only work when the enemy has limited resources to retaliate. It failed against the Mongols, who simply wiped out whole cities or regions. Tamurlane stacked around 125,000 skulls outside of Baghdad. Against the US military, who did not resort to brutality but DID give back even more focused, violent responses to the raiders, this tactic also failed. India has about a billion people, a large military, with reasonable effectiveness and the ability to conduct a defeat of Pakistan. The raids are likely to create not merely a rising tensions but a catastrophic defeat of Pakistan which has an Army that cannot even fight against the Taliban inside it’s own country.

As for Muslims, conflict with them is inevitable, until they cease being Muslims, i.e. polygamists. The violence seen in the Muslim societies is because of the problem of “surplus men” caused by polygamy. It is the polygamy that drives the violence and creates the cadres of violent young men seeking to either die as martyrs or gain glory, and the rise of planners like polygamists Zawahari and Osama who wish to become Caliph themselves with an exile Army.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:10 pm 30. Doug:

re:
“the attacks cannot be understood as as simply some “teenage gunmen” letting off some fanaticism.”
—
Obama arrived in Chicago as a radical ideologue and set out finding the people he needed to find and get to know, to move his agenda and vision forward.
It was Obama who found Ayers.
Now, it may well be that Ayers got his career going by hosting a fundraiser in his house, but it was Obama who found these people. It was Obama who found Jeremiah Wright. Obama’s not the innocent little guy who’s been corrupted by these leftist radicals.

He is one of them, and you will hear it all as Stanley Kurtz explains it.
A lot of these radicals have blended and modified their outward appearance so that they could go unseen but they held fast to their radical views: unadulterated socialism, the overthrow of capitalism.
Now, remember, journalists and academics live in a world of zero quantitative measurement.
They spend their days contemplating their navels, resenting the achievers.
They teach each other this.
It’s a mantra they keep saying to themselves. Bill Ayers is as radical as he ever was! Obama, I don’t care if he says he was only eight when Ayers did this stuff, he’s known Ayers all of his life! He shared an office with Bill Ayers and ACORN, I think, for three years. Do you think sharing an address, they might have run into each other in three years?
So here’s the Ayers sound bite.
– Limbaugh

AYERS:
“I considered myself partly an anarchist then and I consider myself partly an anarchist now. I mean, I am as much an anarchist as I am a Marxist, um, which is to say I find a lot of the ideas in anarchism, you know, appealing and I’m very open about what I think, nobody here surprised by what I think. The struggle over various religious fundamentalism it’s jihad being, you know, the most visible.
But the religious fundamentalism of the Christians and of the Jews is equally troubling.
Is one of the regrets that I took extreme measures against the United States at a time of tremendous crisis?
No, it’s not. I don’t regret that.”

Now, keep in mind:
seven days later, after this, Ayers appeared with Obama on a panel.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:10 pm 31. Andrew X:

Doug – Brother Malcolm was a Stampeder.

(Now there’s a word to make the rounds!)

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:12 pm 32. Brock:

“One of the biggest obstacles to dealing with this mutating beast is the Western intelligensia’s perverse inclination to assign altruistic or holy motives to what are purely criminal or political aims.”

How about we stop caring aims entirely and only care for what people do? I know, not a new concept, but hey, it brings a whole bunch of clarity. Are you behaving like a thug – then you get the big stick right between the eyes. We don’t ask “Why” around here.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:19 pm 33. twobyfour:

@ 23. CPT. Charles

Definitely looks like a test run to get chinks out. ISI, LeT and AQ participation. Each gets their briefing.

There may be a couple more ops with somewhat different objectives, maybe again in India or someplace near, before activating the sleepers in the West.

They’ll go for assets that have a local high value. In Mumbai, it was the biz district hotels with foreigners. In US it may be an upgrade of the Beslan model combined with another very high value target.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:23 pm 34. Andrew X:

Brock – That is so staggeringly simple-minded it is actually brilliant.

Well said.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:24 pm 35. rc:

14. Ruby Red:

Whatever, you tool…

BTW, Wretchard, I think RI is starting to learn from it’s own backward mistakes…a single, suicide bomber can cause considerable damage in a certain place, at a certain time…but the effect is similar to the V2 during WWII…not a strategic game-changer, but a localized terror weapon. RI is facing the reality that it lost that battle…but a tactical-strategic revolution could put them back in the game. I think new people are taking hold of the old Caliphate-lovers and, as with Iran’s soon to be had, nuclear arsenal, they realize that the technology, weapons, tactics and strategy of the West are their only hope..which is both very sad a very frightening. I’m afraid the war is entering a new phase, and, as usual, we aren’t prepared for it.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:27 pm 36. Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » The battle for Mubai continues:

[...] Amir Taheri: Mumbai attacks: the terrorists’ tactics As India burns, Amir Taheri examines how radical Islamists may be changing their tactics to inspire home-grown jihadists, via Richard. [...]

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:36 pm 37. Doug:

I request that twobyfour be banned for going far beyond mere political incorrectness with his vile and offensive characterization of our Chinese brethren.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:37 pm 38. twobyfour:

@ 32. Brock

But that would collapse the whole “behavior is the reflection of the societal root causes” stratagem!

[Okay, I remember when I was in the 6th grade and there was this repetent that was twice as big as me. For some reason, he picked me, a scrawny bespectacled kid, as an object to his torture. I really did not care what his societal pressures were, it just bugged the hell out of me until a break point. I waited in front of school for him. I did not care whether I'll get a black eye. I attacked him with a fury. Turned his nose into a pulp. He crouched down and cried like a baby. Maybe 60 kids saw that. I got my black eye. But from that day on, he did not bug anyone anymore. Ever. Did his societal pressures changed? Well, he had definitely a nasty pressure in his nasal area for a couple of weeks. A pressure replacement, so to speak.]

Hey! Let’s start today!

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:40 pm 39. ledger:

“Mumbai, Nov. 28: They were all sleeping in the safe confines of their homes when urgent calls were made at midnight to form a crack team of the elite commandos of the Indian Navy- MARCOS, to tackle the terror attacks unfolding at the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels here. By two in the morning, 40 heavily armed Naval commandos had arrived at the scene. The team was divided into two with one being sent to Oberoi along with the Explosive Ordinance Demolitions (EOD), while the other to Taj. A Mauritius national’s identity card was recovered from the rucksack of a terrorist who escaped from a hotel room, he said, adding the recovered rucksack also contained Chinese made hand grenades, seven ammunition magazines, 400 spare rounds of ammunition, seven credit cards of different banks, dry rations and USD 1,200 and Rs 6,840. n PTI”

See: The Statesman
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&theme=&usrsess=1&id=233295

How many terrorists were captured or killed?

Is the fighting still on going?

[Bill Roggio November 28, 2008 12:31 AM]

“Almost two days after terrorists…attacked the Indian financial hub of Mumbai, the military is still working to root out the remnants of the assault teams at two hotels and a Jewish center.”

[Debka November 28, 2008, 10:20 PM (GMT+02:00)]

“On Day 3 of the assault on Mumbai, the terrorists mounted a second attack on city’s main rail station already hit Wednesday. DEBKAfile reports that the fresh attack indicates terrorists remained on the loose outside the primary three hostage locations seized Wednesday and may be preparing a second wave of outrages in India’s financial center.”

Terrorists are still shooting at the train station 3 days after the start of the terror operation?

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:41 pm 40. Doug:

Sam said…
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Israel’s Channel 1 TV that the bodies of three women and three men were found at the center. Some of the victims had been bound, Mr. Barak said.
“All in all, it was a difficult spectacle,” he said.

CNN reported the government had cut off their live transmissions from the scene in Bombay.

Authorities have asked not to show live broadcasts of the battle because they believe the gunmen were monitoring the news.

160 Dead

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:45 pm 41. Mongoose:

Rah: If the goal was to disturb or distort rapprochement between Pakistan and India, or to put pressure on the USA and India relationship, then it is much too early to say that “ultimately” it was a failure (I do get your point about immediate tactical success as regard the hostages). An indirect challenge to the USA seems to be certain in their scheme; if we not adroit in our response this will starkly show US vulnerabilities in terms of influence. resolve and capabilities, and not just regionally.
We could also assume they were testing the waters with a new approach.
It may be that some combination of all of these were a part of their calculations.

We should gauge how this impacts all the other gathering probes, feints and challenges: Russia in the Caucuses and E. Europe, Russia and China in the central Asian CIS nations, Iran and even challenges in Latin America.

It matter not if this is any coordinated with a broader effort or merely opportunistically adding more chaos were part of the designs of this attack. Other actors will wrest what they can from this.

So far the USA looks impotent, but who knows what is moving behind the curtains.

…..

BTW, besides committing real boots to the WOT, India could open up another front in Central Asia, this one for their own regional interests. This would be an economic one challenging Russian and Chinese investment, management and market share in the area. It would be a smart strategic move for them (though it could work against the USA in the long term).

It may be a tad tangential, but so far no one has mentioned the China is dramatically building road, rail and air transportation bridges to this area and both they and Russia is ramping up economic efforts there as well. This does affect the political mechanations in the subcontinent.
It surely must be part of the considerations in New Delhi.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:50 pm 42. whiskey:

Let’s remember that this tactic is not new. In Andrew McCarthy’s book Willful Blindness, and his columns at NRO, he recounts how the Trinidad and Tobago plotters with about 100 armed gunmen who took over Parliament and the TV station, had ties to various groups in and around the Blind Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman.

So, it’s about 18 years old. Yes, that old.

Of course, inevitably, there will be “counter-hostages.” There are many Muslims in the West or places like India. EVENTUALLY it will occur to a people under seige that counters to hostage taking and terrorism lie to hand. ENOUGH provocations, ever-larger, eventually slip the bonds of PC and multiculturalism and restraint. That moment in the movie “Silverado” where Linda Hunt tells Kevin Klein that Brian Dennehy’s character cannot hurt her if he is … dead.

In that sense, India’s 170 million Muslims are also hostages themselves. Should the Indian people be angry enough. Sadly, I’m sure it WILL come to that.

Nov 28, 2008 - 7:56 pm 43. Mongoose:

Whiskey: I do not get you Timur reference. He was Turkic (or at least considered himself Turkic, not Mongol), had heavy Persian influences, and was a devote Muslim. He practically destroyed the Golden Horde (and the Middle Eastern Muslims too). Seems to me he was attempting to build an empire — rebuild the Mongol empire, really — not responding to raids form the Middle East peoples, who after all were coreligionists.

Nov 28, 2008 - 8:10 pm 44. fred:

For some reason Wretchard’s blog during the past few years has been experiencing a revolving door appearance of Leftist, militant homosexuals who are here to carry the water for our enemies. They are here to mock us, demoralize us, annoy us, deceive us, turd on us, and finally to denigrate the country we love. The best thing I guess we can do is to not engage the troll. Which is why I won’t refer to it by its nom-de-guerre, just in case it is using some kind of automated search to see if its name has been addressed on the blog. It contributes nothing to the quality of the discussion.

They are sore winners, these militant Leftists. They aren’t just content to bask in la gloire of Obama’s and the Left’s victory. They have to rub it in and have to hector us at every turn. All we are trying to do is to engage in a good discussion about the issues and events of the day and to support one another in a world that is becoming more hostile towards the things we hold dear.

Muhammad’s sock puppet told him, when he settled in Medina (Yathrib)that he should take a different road towards getting converts. The sock puppet told him to raid the caravans, kill the men, and sell the women and children into slavery. From that point on he began to gather in “converts” to Allah by the bucket. Loot, women, and slaves were all acceptable, according to the sock puppet. So, Muhammad attracted the criminal class of Yathrib and the disinherited younger sons of Arab families.

This is Islam: it is founded on violence, rapine, and spoliation. Justified by Muhammad’s sock puppet. Islam is not, I’m sorry to contradict you, a movement in search of the numinous. It’s a lot more base and savage than that.

Nov 28, 2008 - 8:23 pm 45. Mongoose:

Fred: That is a pretty fair description of Leninism too. Perhaps that is the answer to you question about “sore winners”.

Nov 28, 2008 - 8:36 pm 46. Brock:

twobyfour @ 38: I had a very, very similar experience during my formative years. Looking back my only regret is that I hadn’t acted earlier.

whiskey @ 42: Muslim citizens of India and other non-Muslim controlled countries make very bad “counter hostages.” The terrorists really don’t care about saving Muslim lives (witness their actions in Iraq). Attacking otherwise peaceful co-citizens of a secular nation is a pointless act of violent frustration.

fred @ 44: That may be a fair description of Islam, but who cares? KISS: They make the bang-bang, they get the BANG-BANG-BANG. Keep whacking with the “Stop it!” stick until they do.

Nov 28, 2008 - 9:01 pm 47. J-Rog:

Ledger cited a news article above describing the personal effects of a “now in paradise, where are my virgins?” Terrorist.

The perp had seven credit cards and plenty of money on his person. I assume it’s a fair bet that they at least had an “exit strategy” for getting away alive. More evidence that the hostages were incidental, not fundamental to the goals of the operation.

Also more evidence that they weren’t necessarily on a suicide mission, or that their superiors gave them false hope.

This is conjecture and could be wrong, if the terrorist in question had actually been in country for some time.

Nov 28, 2008 - 9:34 pm 48. J-Rog:

Oh yeah, and this also happened right before Thanksgiving. Coincidence?

Nov 28, 2008 - 9:36 pm 49. Wadeusaf:

The offer then with drawl of the Pakistani Intelligence chief to assist India in its investigation shows that there is allot to sniff out in Islamabad. If the ISI is involved the Pakistani Civilian Government must not only condemn but call upon other authorities to root out and eliminate the extremists in their midst. Something easier said than done. If a serious and honest undertaking of this sort is embarked upon now, Pakistan may save itself as a nation. If the extremists are so entrenched in the military and Government that a serious effort is impossible, war is, IMO, all but certain.

The ties of India and Pakistan to both Iran and to Russia as well as the treaty obligations each has with one another make the waging of war certain to escalate to a hemispheric rather than a regional conflict.

I look forward to Islamabad’s further response to requests for information and investigative assistance. I think a huge shake up in the offing in Pakistan. Perhaps we may even witness a coup attempt to salvage the lives and bank accounts of Islamists within the Pakistani government.

May God have mercy on all Islamists and their supporters, for I believe no one else will.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:06 pm 50. Dave:

@Fred, your #44: In recent weeks I have noticed a sameness in trollish commentary
not only here but in other parts of pajamas media and elsewhere.

Not only have there been new trolls, the existing trolls have altered their screeds.

Words like “New World Order”, “trilateralist”
“interventionist”, and other pejoratives associated with the right have replaced
the usual leftist-associated words.

Palin-trashing now seems to be done by alleged Republicans. So forth and so on.

Various and sundry forms of Christian-bashing
have at least partially replaced anti-semitic commentary.

Can’t be any form of singular mastermind giving out talking points. In other words, no master conspiracy. However, there probably are a whole bunch of little conspiracies, each of which tries to make us feel doomed. And are too dense to know that they are failing.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:11 pm 51. Alexis:

There may come a time when the United States must choose between supplying our troops through Pakistan or making nice with Putin. I hope it doesn’t get to that. Although there are ways to supply our troops in Afghanistan that don’t go through either Pakistan or Russia, our military and political leadership apparently lacks the brains to figure out how it can be done.

I could patiently explain exactly how we can supply our troops without a supply train that goes through Pakistan, and I have done so on several occasions previously on this blog. However, I am increasingly coming to the opinion that powerful factions want the United States to stay dependent upon Pakistan for supplying our troops in Afghanistan while Pakistan allows the Taliban to raid both Afghanistan and American convoys in tribal regions. Why certain posters here would desire American troops to be dependent upon a Pakistani supply line is something they really need to explain.

People who think that India’s acquiescence to Pakistani provocation can be bought forever by American subsidies are deluding themselves. India’s political leadership may have more than its share of corrupt incompetent demagogues, but no sane Indian politician wants to become a prostitute for a foreign state. Indian cooperation with the United States is one thing, but expecting India to subordinate its national security to the American State Department’s religion of “Stability” is sheer lunacy.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Leftists have made this complaint frequently against the military, but this comment about hammers is even more apt with America’s diplomatic corps. It seems as though American diplomats are so devoted to Stability that they don’t realize they are getting scammed over and over and over again. Good diplomacy requires a mammalian worldview that doesn’t see everything as a reptilian balance of power. A good diplomat realizes that solid positive progress is preferable to the complacent stagnation whose name is Stability. In the halls of power, Stability is the mind killer.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:16 pm 52. Dave:

Kindly remember that right after 11Sep01, terrorists everywhere thought they were about to reign supreme. And do so in short order.
And do so by staging ever bigger and nastier events.

Everything they have done since then has instead been in reaction against what the
Man From Midland put into action. Not to minimize the seriousness of what they have done and might do, but they have definitely been on the defensive.

Lots of dead jihadists out there to prove the point.

“Oh, they might have went on living,
But they made a fatal slip,
When they tried to match the W
With the Big Iron on his hip”.

When it comes to being Commander-in-Chief,
Barack Obama has some damned big boots to fill. Little Ruby slippers just won’t cut the mustard.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:19 pm 53. Dave:

@Alexis #51:

Problem with Foggy Bottom (along with other folks as well) is that they have no idea of
what the PURPOSE of foreign policy is.

It is, or should be, “To maintain and perpetuate the United States of America as a
free and independent federal republic”.

Wonder how many Obamaroids can stomach that truth?

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:22 pm 54. Uncle Jefe:

“Today it is often enough to describe oneself as holy, a prophet or a messiah to blind the world to the true character of banditry.”
OBAMA, to the core.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:35 pm 55. whiskey:

Mongoose, my mistake. I meant Hulagu Khan. Believed to have killed about most of Baghdad, perhaps about 200,000 or more. The city was depopulated for centuries.

Brock: it doesn’t matter if the “counter-hostages” are not particularly effective. Make the war a matter of war and a tribal affair, as this incident just might have done, unavoidable, and people will come to it. The idea that Muslims cannot make trouble if they are all dead, and no new ones allowed in your country, certainly appeared to the Serbians as a workable solution. Men like Radovan Karazdic did not appear like dragons teeth magic — they had the whole-hearted support of the average Serbian who was fed up with Muslim onslaught for centuries and felt no compunction or compassion.

There is very little of Christian belief in India, a vast majority Hindu nation. The Indian people are quite capable of wiping out most/all of the Muslim co-religionists at the village level if provoked. The history of South Asia is quite clear on this. Even fewer “brakes” in other words than in Serbia.

Nov 28, 2008 - 10:45 pm 56. twobyfour:

@ 50. Dave:

Words like “New World Order”, “trilateralist”
“interventionist”, and other pejoratives associated with the right have replaced
the usual leftist-associated words.

What is funny about it is that it is a projection. NWO (and associated think tanks like CFR and others) is conceptually a statist and potentially a totalitarian framework and meshing rather nicely with the lefty screed.

It seems that the taking point were recently modified to include this vocab. It usually reflect what is the current thinking in the lefty circles. The purpose is to accuse others from what you self are after.

Nov 28, 2008 - 11:23 pm 57. peterike:

I wonder if the guys behind the attack don’t quite understand the American electoral system and they thought Obama was already President.

Anyway, on the subject of RR. I went to check out her blog. Lots of tedious psycho-babble about Lesbianism, none of which I could care less about, but more power to her if she wants to write such things. But she also posted a little “poem” that was an offense against the English language it was so trite and stupid. So I posted a comment saying just that.

She deleted the comment. Not only that, she posted a comment that she deleted the comment, suspecting rightly that I found my way there via Belmont, which she referred to as a “fascist blog.”

I suppose the irony of this “fascist blog” letting her comments stand, as written, while her “liberal blog” immediately deletes criticism won’t phase her. I posted there again, to make that point. I suspect that will get deleted as well.

Nov 28, 2008 - 11:39 pm 58. twobyfour:

@55. whiskey

All the phases of Islamic conquest of India form 1000 to 1700 resulted in 80 million dead Hindus, Sikhs and people of other local religious screeds.

The figure is based on demographic estimates and supported by muslim authors of the time that considered killing infidels a pious activity and hence did not hide the counts and rather bragged about it. One report described obliteration of 200,000 souls in one valley by a sword or sawing in half within span of 3 days.

Yes, it happened centuries ago. But the ideology responsible for this barbarity exists still today in an unaltered form. I see karma in works.

Nov 28, 2008 - 11:49 pm 59. NahnCee:

OK, here’s my latest epipheny.

What has Al-Queda been criticized repeatedly and by everyone for? Killing too many Muslims in their suicide bombings. Not necessarily killing women and children and puppies but killing other Muslims. Not good jihad.

What caused Iraqi’s to turn against Al-Queda and start to help Americans? AQ was killing too many Iraqi’s in their suicided bombings, and hardly any Americans. Too many fellow Muslims getting blown up by mistake.

So if you have a terrorist organization that has just lost one major battle in one country and it wants to learn from its mistakes and reconstitute itself, what should it do? I submit that it should learn how to target its suicide missions so that there’s a higher percentage of dead Westerners (preferrably Americans and Jews) and a lower percentage of dead Muslims.

I wonder statistically when all the bodies are counted, if the terrorists were shooting specifically at everyone *but* Indian Muslims. And if so, whether the world’s Muslim population will start to cheer Al-Queda again as being freedom fighters and defenders of the Ummah.

Nov 28, 2008 - 11:52 pm 60. Contrarian:

Regarding the stories of the terrorists caching arms in the hotels prior to the attack, I wonder if they also have some safe houses scattered around Mumbai. It is a city of over 12 million, certainly many of whom are Indian muslims. The story of the follow-up attack on the train station suggests that some of the attackers are sheltering outside the hotels. It will be interesting to see if it really is over as the Mumbai authorities are saying, or if there will be another wave of attacks soon.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:03 am 61. Beverly:

Here’s a little history, by way of DanielPipes.org.

Will Durant, the famous historian, summed it up like this:

“The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”

Koenraad Elst, the German historian, writes in “Negation in India”:

“The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindu skulls.

“Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the ‘Hindu Kush,’ i.e., Hindu slaughter.

“The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on.

“As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention that the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between A.D. 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate).”

Eighty million dead. Brought to you by the Religion of Peace[TM].

“It’s the religion, stupid.” Yep, a horrible thing to face. There are so damned many of them. And no sane person wants a religious war. But the enemy is determined to force one on us.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:20 am 62. twobyfour:

@ 60. Contrarian

I bet another wave’s in cards. With a bit different modus operandi and probably at another city, Mumbai is becoming rather too crowded by police/spec. commandos for jihadis–their supply of human material is not unlimited.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:20 am 63. Doug:

peterike:
“I suppose the irony of this “fascist blog” letting her comments stand, as written, while her “liberal blog” immediately deletes criticism won’t phase her. I posted there again, to make that point.
I suspect that will get deleted as well.”

Huh? What irony?
All systems normal.
Liberal Fascism creates an
Irony Free Zone™

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:22 am 64. Doug:

Got a heck of a blogroll, Peter.
More “Poetry” here:
Militia Etheridge
(gotta love that name!)

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:20 am 65. heather:

It will not be a pretty sight, watching Obama send in American soldiers to (finally) hunt down Osama Bin Laden and therefore end Bush’s war. And, as Ruby says, get back to that old time police work, with no worries about all those foreigners…

That is why Ruby’s contributions are useful. It is always well to know just how really stupid it is possible to be.

Anyway, I am a Canadian, and I have decided that the smart thing for all Canadian soldiers to get out of Afghanistan. I have supported our troops up to now, but I am afraid that Obama’s way will be a disaster for the soldiers on the ground.

And as far as Islam is concerned, given its track record since 1948, compared to those of the Japanese, the Chinese and the Indians, its proper place is at the bottom of humanity’s totem pole. It is becoming clear that a nuclear war will be necessary to bring that about.

I think India just may be the country to do that. Certainly, given Obama’s power, the USA has taken itself out of contention as a world leader.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:36 am 66. mouse:

I try to imagine the jihadi mindset…

A-hunt’n-they-will-go, disembarking from their boats full-loaded with gear, for a few hours of adrenaline kill’n, –and then applause and pleasure forever. Killing would be intense for a man of any faith, but for those to whom it promises elysium it’s got to be a blast.

There is the minor incidental of dying, but since dying is intended, it’s in fact not incidental but the best death of all; and while, true, it might be painful, well then, it might instead not be painful at all, “but as a slight prick”; and anyway you wouldn’t know until you find out and if you’re of the optimistic sort and in high spirits as you sashay on your way, perhaps you don’t give it even a thought.

Of course, to be of this mindset you have to first believe in this pleasure-forever and forever-applause at having slaughtered for Allah. Some do, and in light heart and sturdy resolve go pleasantly to their deaths.

This is not the Western way of thought, I would fear judgment, and if not that, nothingness. But that doesn’t seem the jihadi way; they seem to have things worked out.

I’m at the moment speaking only of the Mujahideen of death, the men who, to fulfill their life’s high purpose, need only an episode and an opportunity, not the men who use them, who plan and finance such large operations, who do have goals, political and pragmatic. Who knows their emotions? I’m only saying that they do seem to have ready instruments at their disposal. Those instruments don’t need an argument or a geopolitical purpose. They only need a party. Anywhere.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:39 am 67. Doug:

Party on Dude!
The Dude abides.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:52 am 68. OldSalt:

The “Jihhadies”, a.k.a. Muslims-faithfully-acting-out-Allah’s-will-as-stated-in-the-Koran, should add fresh relevance of why their were Crusades between 1096 and 1270. They remind me of the Borg (i.e. Star Trek villains). They are consistent, relentless, and you will be assimilated or annihilated, if you don’t fight and defeat them. I am looking at the world in more “black and white” terms than every before, and as a Christian, it’s disturbing. I do not want to hate people, but simply hating the evil these people do is not enough. Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know. If there was a “peaceful Islam”, it’s adherents would be scouring the earth for the impostors who kill innocents, rape women, and enslave children in the name of “Allah”.

Islam gives it’s young men a rifle, a bomb, a knife or sword, and a target to attack, but it can’t give them life. It can’t give them hope. What kind of mind does it take to kill a 13 year old girl, or any of the other innocents that died in India, and not be revolted by the act. It is a pathological mind, made that way by a pathological religion.

I will grant no quarter to any Muslim, except perhaps those few who are in uniform fighting their fellow Muslims in the name of a greater national good (US, Iraqi, whatever). Christianity did not teach me to hate Muslims. My American culture certainly did not teach me to hate them. Every negative thought I have about Islam, and Muslims, originated within Islam itself.

I am certain that the cost of peace will ultimately be millions of dead Muslims. Muslims as a whole have really not been harmed by the actions of their “radical” brothers. There hasn’t been a Muslim nation state or city decimated in the manner of say, Berlin or Hiroshima. It will take such a shocking reversal to convince Muslims that Allah or Jihad is a lie. Pakistanis had better fear the consequences of harboring these murderous Muslims, and encouraging a Muslim culture. The Jahhadies may be hard to pin down, but Pakistan is sitting pat with a rather large, vulnerable target on it.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:42 am 69. bob:

It strikes me as highly unlikely that Obama would order – it’s a terrible thought, him giving orders – the army to march into Pakistan looking for Osama bin Laden. I really doubt that’s going to happen. It’s more likely he’ll pull us out of Iraq too fast, putting the gains there in jeopardy. This keeping Gates around is just cover.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:54 am 70. Roland THTG:

If there was a “peaceful Islam”, it’s adherents would be scouring the earth for the impostors who kill innocents, rape women, and enslave children in the name of “Allah”.

Well put.
If it comes to blows, we would best be advised to stand back and hold the coats.

But there would be a window, some might see, to go clean out the NWFP. But, there be dragons, I think.

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:27 am 71. Ruby Red:

Well, at least anonymous has a name now, “Peterike”, though I had to go through a third party to get it. I’ll talk about Peterike indirectly in a passive-aggressive voice because Peterike is afraid to put a name on his comments. Maybe if Peterike put his name on the first post I wouldn’t have considered it graffiti and deleted it. I’ll leave Peterike’s post this time, because he is not really just a hit-and-run vandal.

So if everyone is done talking about me, let’s return to the slow-motion train wreck that is B.C. commentary on the Mumbai attack, already in progress…..

Old Salt, your #68: “What kind of mind does it take to kill a 13 year old girl, or any of the other innocents that died in India, and not be revolted by the act?”

The answer is a mind devoid of empathy. The same kind of mind which says:

1. “Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know.”

2. “I will grant no quarter to any Muslim, except perhaps those few who are in uniform fighting their fellow Muslims in the name of a greater national good

3. “And as far as Islam is concerned, given its track record since 1948, compared to those of the Japanese, the Chinese and the Indians, its proper place is at the bottom of humanity’s totem pole. It is becoming clear that a nuclear war will be necessary to bring that about.”

4. “Islam is not, I’m sorry to contradict you, a movement in search of the numinous. It’s a lot more base and savage than that.”

5. “”Nothing cows the jihad quite like military defeat. And a defeat at the hands of the pagan Hindus would be very humiliating indeed for the Muslims. I’ll be laughing about it.”

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:42 am 72. Buck Smith:

This is not a tactic that would work well in the US.

Depends on what part of it. I am thinking many of the liberal coastal enclaves might be easier pickings for Haji than the heartland.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:17 am 73. JFSanders:

That is so magnanimous of you to consent to leave his post…

You are correct that Old Salt is wrong in his statement:

1. “Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know.”

That dubious honor would more rightly go to “liberal Fascism” and the Left.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:19 am 74. JFSanders:

Buck Smith,

Operational strategy would almost guarantee a large urban center strike. And the fact that almost all “LUC” are placid and flaccid in terms of ability to respond both by the general population and the sheep herders.

I would tend to see the next target being a more tourist oriented location. Although the jihadies show a definite affinity for financial districts. Atlanta or Boston and at the outside San Fransisco I would think.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:26 am 75. twobyfour:

RR, you definitely need to take a course in logic. Basically, if you build your premises on garbage in, you get garbage out as conclusions.

Islam is not a person! It is a political ideology wrapped in a religious narrative!

In order to understand what Islam is, you need to study it, as well as hadiths (interpretation) and its jurisprudence–shari’a.

Once you go through that, you’d realize that Islam is “the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, satanically inspired system of thought that I know”. I’d add suprematist.

As a lesbian, if you lived in one of the places where they apply Islam as intended–especially its jurisprudence, you’d end up either stoned to death or your head would be severed by a sword (Saudi Arabia) or slowly lifted by a crane with a noose around your neck until your body weight closes your wind pipes (Iran). And other countries slowly fall into the same fold–Pakistan, Nigeria, Somalia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Maledives… And Islam is making inroads in other countries, like Thailand. Inform yourself how it is done. Murder, murder and murder, laced with rape. That is not an accidental bug. It is a feature sanctioned by Islam.

I have no capacity of empathy for these evils. And until Islam is destroyed as an ideology, a quasi-religious system, countless human souls would suffer. I empathize with those.

Islam does not corrupt entirely all those that are nominally muslims because they know very little about its fundamental nature and apply other notions (tribal or cultural) to their behavior or social interactions.

But it corrupts a plenty. Whether it is 10% (according to a Saudi prince) or 25% (according to other sources–former muslims) is not a change in order of magnitude. Somewhere between 150,000,000 to 300,000,000 people. It is a mighty army and sooner or later, we will be confronted by it, whether we want or not, or whether we chose to ignore and whitewash it or not.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:33 am 76. JFSanders:

The funniest part about Ruby posting here is that she gets more responses to her blather than at her own blog.

Ruby, When you cut and paste wholesale tracts of comments and posts by the host. You must give attribution. It is very bad form to do what you have done. Please correct this at once. Oh and using “that other (frankly fascist) blog” is not how you attribute.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:41 am 77. twobyfour:

@ 73. JFSanders:

1. “Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know.”

That dubious honor would more rightly go to “liberal Fascism” and the Left.

No, it has some way to go to reach the same depth. It is matter of means, and despite 100,000,000 deaths attributable to leftist ideologies in the last century, Islam’s potential is far greater once the means of mass slaughter are acquired and deployed.

But with leftist-islamic convergence taking place, you may soon not be able to tell the difference.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:45 am 78. twobyfour:

Errata: In order to understand what Islam is, you need to study Quran, as well as hadiths (traditions and interpretation) and its jurisprudence–shari’a.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:53 am 79. twobyfour:

@ 76. JFSanders

The funniest part about Ruby posting here is that she gets more responses to her blather than at her own blog.

I am not really responding to her, but to the multitude of those fresh from the indoctrination system passed as education that turned their brains into a mush.

Some of them may not realize what has been done to them–those that have been damaged beyond repair by internalizing the programming. But some will be able to discard it, partially or in its entirety.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:07 am 80. JFSanders:

@2×4,

I disagree. The Left and its ideology is a moving target. Constantly reinventing and repackaging itself. Where as Islam is unchanging and static. It is much easier to deal with. Islam is easily discerned in a given population of people. Liberal Fascism has no such face.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:15 am 81. James:

To return to the original topic: early reports said that several of the invaders were British citizens of Pakistani origin, and that some of the invaders carried ID cards or other identifying marks.
In such a carefully planned operation, carrying ID would seem like a major no-no, unless they were expected to be identified.

: If a large fraction of the invaders were Brits who came to Pakistan to join jihad, the ISI chose to use them in order to provide plausible deniability and a ready-made conspiracy: “The Brits did this to rile up the Indians against us.” It wouldn’t be plausible anywhere except Muhammadan countries, but in Pakistan it would be holy writ and help focus anger outwards; away from the government and towards Britain and America.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:19 am 82. James:

Crud. I tried to label the last post to emphasize that the last paragraph was speculation on my part, but it didn’t show.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:21 am 83. twobyfour:

@ 80. JFSanders

I understand where you are coming from. You are correct in pointing out the repackaging aspect. But although that can be considered its strength, it is also its weakness vis-a-vis Islam.

The weakness is due to the fact that an ordinary untrained human mind tends to follow pattern processes. The more the creed transmogrifies to adapt to the changing times, the more dichotomies and contradictions are created. And many, at some point, will have their epiphany.

Islam is a self-contained pattern system, entirely circular and bootstrapping. It damages the human spirit in ways that are almost inescapable from within the system. There are not that many apostates within the islamic countries, and the penalty of death is a powerful motivator.

If you compare how the people living in either system are able to escape it, you’d see I am correct.

The leftist system and regime can be overturned when the discrepancies become too apparent to the majority of population and the power structure that held it in place lost its stranglehold (1989, Eastern Europe).

Show me one country where Islam took a hold and that escaped from its yoke, without outside intervention.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:41 am 84. Tony:

Guys, no biggie, but in my post at #7 I was agreeing with W and Roggio, as CAPT Charles was at #23, that these guys simply couldn’t carry enough ammo to do what they did. Ledger’s post at #26 with The Australian cite seems to confirm, that these guys had replenishment points pre-set.

I still don’t understand how only 10 (?) guys could hold out for 2.5 days. I bet a lot of sappers were already on the scene and slipped away.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:46 am 85. JFSanders:

@2×4,

You are correct in that Islam uses brute force to control. And as such is much harder to overturn and reject. But understand that to eradicate Socialism and its bastard children. You would have to change the genetic makeup of Man. It just happens in some people.

You are more correct that the confluence of Islam and Liberal Fascism/Socialism is a large problem and one that needs our utmost attention.

@James,

I think you are over thinking the British angle. Islam seeks no such diversion they are proud of their actions and use them to incite a larger feeling of “yey! we killed the infidels!” And use that to make themselves feel better about the mud hut they live in and the fact that most of them will never have a wife let alone a beautiful one. And therefor their only chance at immortality is to have it written in a book about their daring and holy attack on the infidel.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:54 am 86. twobyfour:

@ 81. James

I would attribute it more to expendability (using fodder from other countries keeps your local assets intact and ready for other ops), although the pointers to other places than Pakistan were probably considered by ISI as an additional benefit.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:54 am 87. JFSanders:

84 @tony,

We got you. I suspect that there were a sizable portion of advance assets. Most likely set up months in advance and put there by people that worked in the targets. As for the 3 day length. Unless the Indian commandos had orders to strike hard at all costs it would have taken this long to pin them down and kill them.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:00 am 88. bob:

Show me one country where Islam took a hold and that escaped from its yoke, without outside intervention.

I’ve wondered about that question. Nothing comes to mind, though I don’t know the early history of the dreary religion very well. Until someone can point out an example, I’ll figure there isn’t one.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:03 am 89. JFSanders:

Spain had the Moors and kicked them out.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:08 am 90. JFSanders:

And no that is not where the Mormans came from…. LOL

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:10 am 91. A Conservative Teacher:

Great post. You really understand the nature of the beast that we are dealing with. Radical Islam is a scray thing… I wonder though, if there is any truth at all in the idea that Islam itself is the problem- not to be un-politically correct, but could the entire religion just be a sham?

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:12 am 92. Mongoose:

It is, or should be, “To maintain and perpetuate the United States of America as a
free and independent federal republic”.

Well my friend, you are confused. The purpose of foreign is “To maintain and perpetuate our Ivy league, Laa-Dee-Laa butts as free and independent from the federal republic. Oh, and to get invited to some just delightful dinner parties too”.

Really if we ever get our Republic back from the Unholy Democrat Filth, the first thing we should do is clean out that stable.

History may never know what damage State has done and continues to do to the country.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:19 am 93. Mongoose:

foreign = foreign policy.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:20 am 94. twobyfour:

@ 85. JFSanders:

Brute force is used by any totalitarian system. Socialism/Communism inclusive, just a matter of degree.

But understand that to eradicate Socialism and its bastard children. You would have to change the genetic makeup of Man. It just happens in some people.

Don’t confuse naivité that is a part of the growing up with the actual leftist indoctrination. The indoctrination just feeds on the natural phase of human maturing process and ventures to expand it, rendering the victim in a state of a permanent neoteny and attempting to close off the potential for maturity and growth.

I went through the indoctrination as a kid, growing up in “workers’ paradise”, and by age of 10 I started to notice the discrepancies between the screed and reality, and by age of 15 I had a fairly good idea about how the system operates and how to counteract its imprinting.

It is harder to deal with it as an idea, because one does not have a referential direct experience. People would fall for it until they experience it and then it would take best of them (or a few generations) to correct the aberration.

So, that presents a dilema that I am unsure how to resolve.

Leftist-islamic convergence, though, is giving me willies. It does not mean that the ideologies will get fused. Islam would ascertain it’s primacy once it uses it’s allied capital, as can be documented by Iran’s Islamic revolution. The leftist allies were disposed off within 4 years, and by “disposed” I mean terminally, not just removed from the power structure and access to it. It simply boils down to expansion of the assault forces by using leftist tools. There is really nothing to suggest that the context changed and that leftist creed would be somehow incorporated into Islam, after all’s said and done.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:33 am 95. twobyfour:

@ 89. JFSanders:

Spain had the Moors and kicked them out.

Not really accurate. There was no Spain. Al Andalus, vs Castille/Catalonia/Leon and Portugal.

The reconquista was from without, not from within.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:41 am 96. Dave:

I have finally gotten an accurate translation of the Quran.

In the hereafter, all jihadists get to spend
eternity with 72 Ruby Reds.

Justice at last!

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:01 am 97. twobyfour:

@ 91. A Conservative Teacher:

adical Islam is a scray thing… I wonder though, if there is any truth at all in the idea that Islam itself is the problem- not to be un-politically correct, but could the entire religion just be a sham?

Yes and no. Many religions are a response to events transpiring eons ago and to basic human existential questions. But they, to various degrees, incorporate a “golden rule”, and thus are a positive factor. Religion can be misused, and readily is, but then what philosophy is immune to misuse?

I would have to venture to discourse about the origin of religions to elucidate, but that is beyond the scope of the discussion here and would require volumes.

The difference between practically all of the modern religions and Islam is that the second is a death cult while the others are life philosophies (can be cultish too, but not detrimental to human spirit in their nature). Islam is an analog of Thuggee religion, the difference is that Thuggees were exclusive, strictly tribal, Islam is global in it’s reach.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:04 am 98. Dave:

Hey Mongoose: True, Foggy Bottom is a sewer.

But that is not so much by concious design as by the fact that its employees get paid
to do the wrong thing.

Right now I am trying to brainstorm a procedure that will shake things up in a corrective manner.

Wish me luck, would you. Will keep you posted if any success.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:05 am 99. JFSanders:

@95 2×4,

I believe you are splitting hairs my friend. Also did not the Romans refer to the Iberian peninsula as “Hispania”. The northern kingdoms of Aragon and Castile reconquered the peninsula. And to do that they had to have ruled it before the Berber/Arab army took it from them. And as such is not from without.

Jim

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:06 am 100. twobyfour:

@ 99. JFSanders

No splitting hairs.

1. Hispania was a geographical moniker, not a designation of a kingdom or a state, until Ferdinand II used the designation for his new unified state.

2. The Emirate of Cordova was reconquered from areas that were not under muslim control, thus from without.

Once a land is conquered by Islam and not challenged by intervention from without, it stays islamic.

My challenge stands.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:25 am 101. buckets:

This is purely anecdotal, but all of my Indian-American friends are from Left-of-center, see Bush as a war-monger, and indirectly champion the cause of the Islamists. They come from traditional Indian families and get married in the traditional Hindu way, but are seemingly divorced and apart from the Indian-Muslim conflict.

They laugh at and mock U.S. anti-terrorist efforts, seemingly oblivious to the campaign of jihad that has been waging against their ancestors for time immemorial. From what I can see, their parents understand the problem but never passed on the views to the children. I hope my experience is somewhat unique, and I’ll try and chalk it up to membership in the young-urban-educated-wealthy demographic.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:35 am 102. Peter Boston:

It’s difficult to ascribe the actions of a group of individuals to a belief system rather than the usual list of grievances, but upon reviewing the organized and deliberate assaults on civilization made by Muslims over the past 10 years, it becomes more difficult not to, and impossible after you have learned the foundational underpinnings of Islam.

One should read the Koran in conjunction with the biographies of Muhammed to get an understanding of what Muhammed was doing and saying when specific sections of the Koran were “revealed.” Many provisions of the Koran are entirely self-serving and advance Muhammed’s personal aggrandization of wealth, power and women.

Many say that the core beliefs of Islam are misused by the so-called radicals. Such is ignorance and displays a lack of research on the part of the speaker.

The foundational core of Islam is absolute obedience to a deity that requires total control over the life of every human being. Islam is a collective. There are no individuals. Life has value only when serving the deity. Each and every Muslim is obligated by core principles to expand Allah’s dominion over the earth.

Any Muslim who says otherwise is lying to you.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:36 am 103. bob:

I think the reconquest of Spain got a little help too from the Franks, but not sure how much.

could the entire religion just be a sham

Mostly a sham, except maybe for some of the higher reaches of the Sufism, some philosophy, and a few saints. That fellow who got crucified in Baghdad for instance, what the heck was his name?

Violence and oppression is at the heart of it. The odd thing is though, they really need a few dhimmis around, to pay the tax. Otherwise they got to work, raid caravans, or, these days, sell oil.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:44 am 104. bob:

There Is Nothing Wrapped In My Turban But God

For this statement, and others like it, al-Hallaj got crucified in Baghdad.

Best to keep your mysticism to yourself, in Islam.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:00 am 105. twobyfour:

@ 101. buckets:

Goes to show that socialism as ideology corrupts [and socialism in power corrupts absolutely].

Some will grow out of it. Younger ones are prone to peer pressure fashions.

Parents are partially to blame.

My daughter was fed all sort of crap at school (Canuckistan, BC). One day, when she was 17 and in her last year of high school, I started a 4 week long lecture (structured as discussions), covering about 2-3 hours per day. The original purpose was to prepare her for graduation which I did, but that did not prevent me from sneaking in what I considered a necessary balancing correction.

History, philosophy for the most part, although covered hard science gaps too (she had gobbled up the entire man-made GW scam). Also covered potential trends and described what it would be like if Islam would reach its ultimate goal.

Any vestiges of lefty indoctrination were gone by the end of the lecture.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:01 am 106. Mongoose:

Dave: I think the only way out of the problems at State is to stop recruiting from the Ivys, and any other institutions or programs that seek to emulate them (Berkeley foreign service studies programs, Georgetown U, etc.). It is essential to also completely do away with any connections between State and NGO’s and “policy think tanks” like the CFR. There needs to be someway to break the spell of the UN on state too (I am all for pulling out of the UN myself).

Do not hire people with a degree oriented toward “foreign service”. If we must hire academics, hire them from state universities. Do not hire people with trust funds. Do not allow members to be in a union.

Hire people with business experience in the regions involved.

Do not court the local eq1uivalent of our Foggy Bottom and Langley Ivy, Liberal, blue blood mafia. Court the oversea business interest and middle classes.

And move people around. Do not let them set up fiefdoms. Have more political appointees and less career people.

We need to stop making it a country club for the liberal rich or lurching fellow travelers on the far left.

State need to be “democratized”. It needs to respond to the voter via the elections of the President, and he needs to have the authority to fire anyone at state at his leisure, not just can political appointees. It should neither be a social club, a gravy train or a platform for sedition. It should be a workaday organization to service american interests and inform and execute the diplomatic side of policy (but not set it).

(Also, State needs to really provide better services to US citizens oversea, particularly business people. It is a scandal now, if you ask me).

Anyway, off the cuff, that is my two cents.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:01 am 107. Alexis:

I think one effective means to simulate Islamist behavior is to imagine a video game when the player gains points for acting in certain ways. The “high score” would be the number of virgins one gets in paradise. All you need to do to change behavior is to shift the necessary conditions for getting points.

It must be understood that terrorists act like adventurers in a role playing game or a video game, racking up points with each human sacrifice they commit. Once one realizes that Islamist behavior isn’t much different from what one would expect in an Aztec death cult, the proper responses become self-evident.

As a rule, the number of points a terrorist thinks he racks up is a multiple of the body count and the amount of press attention he receives. Subtract from that score the effect of any reports that the terrorist decided upon blue suicide after getting punked by his madrassa teacher or after spending his youth in London as a transvestite hooker.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:02 am 108. Mongoose:

Oh and Dave, good luck on that.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:03 am 109. NahnCee:

I wonder where the Muslim Somali’s who went missing from Minnesota / Michigan ended up … if the Mumbai gang were importing terrorists from UK, could they also be importing them from America.

Or maybe they are hunkering down in preparation for their own strike here in the United States.

Story a couple of months ago that immediately disappeared off the radar screens about some Iraqi’s brought into America by the military to do training, and who had immediately joined up with the trouble-making Muslims in Detroit, and started making threatening demands and noises promising lawsuits. Makes me sort of wonder / hope who’s keeping an eye on Iraqi’s freshly landed for asylum and not assimilated yet (if Muslims can ever be truly assimilated).

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:16 am 110. Pajamas Media » A Symphony of Blood in Mumbai:

[...] Read the entire story here. [...]

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:21 am 111. bob:

I don’t think muslims can be assimilated. We had a guy in my home town that ran the bus station for years. Everybody knew him, treated him right. His daughter was even voted President of the University of Idaho student body one year. I used to sit with him and watch election returns on election night sometimes. He voted republican. When the first Iraq war came around, he said to me one day, “I’ve always hated America.”

Well, leaving is a good option.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:26 am 112. twobyfour:

@ 109. NahnCee:

…(if Muslims can ever be truly assimilated)

Secular (nominal) muslims, yes. But it is hard to discern them. A litmus test… redirect some conversation towards Israel. Indifference or general acceptance (minor rational reservations fine) indicates is a secular/nominal muslim.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:28 am 113. fred:

There is a very, very robust and active alliance of convenience with various Marxist/socialist elements in the West with the recrudescence of Islamic jihad. I have yet to see any valid refutation of the thesis in David Horowitz’ book “Unholy Alliance.”

Check out the book review of Robert Chandler’s book, “Resurgent Russia, the Global New Left, and Radical Islam.” I just ordered the book from Amazon at a substantial discount from the list price. The review is kind of long, but it gives one a flavor of Chandler’s thesis. Should be very interesting.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/shadow_world_resurgent_russia.html

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:32 am 114. fred:

I guess the jihadis who pulled off this commando raid were not expecting to be martyrs. It is believed that those recruited were told they had a good chance of going in, killing Westerners, and getting out alive. Moreover, London and Washington are looking closely at the fact that they may have learned special operations techniques from ours or British special forces. At least seven of the jihadis were Pakistanis who were British citizens. The dolt Home Secretary in Britain, Jaqui Smith, made the ridiculous comment that she was not sure about the veracity of these reports. Exactly what one would expect from a dhimmi…

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:36 am 115. phat:

Mongoose,

In order to fufill your fantasy State Dept you forgot one thing. Willing Employees.

I worked with the DoS for many years and I came away with one thought: I WILL NEVER WORK FOR THESE ASsCLOWNS!

I’m a AF officer and to this day whenever I see a DoS peep I look at their shoes. They see me scrutinizing their footwear and ask, ‘Why are you looking at my feet?’

My answer: I just thought clown shoes would be bigger…and red.

I hate bureaucrats.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:50 am 116. OldSalt:

Old Salt, your #68: “What kind of mind does it take to kill a 13 year old girl, or any of the other innocents that died in India, and not be revolted by the act?”

The answer is a mind devoid of empathy. The same kind of mind which says:

1. “Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know.”

2. “I will grant no quarter to any Muslim, except perhaps those few who are in uniform fighting their fellow Muslims in the name of a greater national good.. – Ruby Red

Thank you for your generous moral equivalence. Killers and defenders, they are all the same morally, eh? The man who cuts off the heads of innocents, and the “rough men who stand ready to do violence on their behalf ..” the same? The man who would kill you for holding a Bible, or simply for being in a cafe in India, and the man who defends your God given right to draw any distinction you prefer, regardless of how foolish, wanton, or obscene, these men then, are morally equivalent in your mind? How is it that the Muslim and Christian world views are co-equal, when one results in death and the other life? How is my personal subset of Christian through, which admittedly but reluctantly harbors more ill will towards these barbarians then my Savior would allow, as corrupt as those who openly support the death of innocents at the expense of “Jihad”, at every Mosque in every small town in the world?

Enjoy your fantasy. The problem with your own world view is that it wouldn’t stand up for 15 seconds in a hotel in Mumbai. You’d be looking for rescue from men like men.

There is a such thing as “good” and “evil” as defined in absolute terms, and you have just illustrated that you are corrupt to the point that you cannot differentiate between either.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:22 pm 117. OldSalt:

– repost – (one of these days I’ll get the editing right BEFORE I hit “submit”

Old Salt, your #68: “What kind of mind does it take to kill a 13 year old girl, or any of the other innocents that died in India, and not be revolted by the act?”

The answer is a mind devoid of empathy. The same kind of mind which says:

1. “Islam is the most corrupt, horrific, deceitful, Satanically inspired system of thought that I know.”

2. “I will grant no quarter to any Muslim, except perhaps those few who are in uniform fighting their fellow Muslims in the name of a greater national good.. – Ruby Red

Thank you for your generous moral equivalence. Killers and defenders, they are all the same morally, eh? The man who cuts off the heads of innocents, and the “rough men who stand ready to do violence on their behalf ..” the same? The man who would kill you for holding a Bible, or simply for being in a cafe in India, and the man who defends your God given right to draw any distinction you prefer, regardless of how foolish, wanton, or obscene, these men then, are morally equivalent in your mind? How is it that the Muslim and Christian world views are co-equal, when one results in death and the other life? How is my personal subset of Christian thought, which admittedly but reluctantly harbors more ill will towards these barbarians then my Savior would allow, as corrupt as those who openly support the death of innocents at the expense of “Jihad”, at every Mosque in every small town in the world?

Enjoy your fantasy. The problem with your own world view is that it wouldn’t stand up for 15 seconds in a hotel in Mumbai. You’d be looking for rescue from men like me.

There is a such thing as “good” and “evil” as defined in absolute terms, and you have just illustrated that you are corrupt to the point that you cannot differentiate between either.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:24 pm 118. fred:

Old Salt,

The problem with responding to the kind of arguments you are commenting about posted by your interlocutor is that we’ve seen that kind of reasoning probably thousands of times in our lifetimes, here and elsewhere, and we’ve easily refuted them in many different ways. I don’t know about you, but I get tired, after awhile, of seeing drivelous argument like that and now I am inclined to pass it by, since it’s unlikely that our counterarguments are not likely to have much effect.

You are dealing with a FAITH, not a rational, systematic thought. Cultural Marxism has made deep inroads and is the glue that holds together the various subcultures that people like your interlocutor are quartered with. Whenever I see tu quoque argumentation, I know I am in the presence of an intellectual adolescent and it is beneath my dignity to rebut it. RR is a cutout of a type we’ve seen here at Wretchard’s blog for awhile. Very similar background as the prior incarnation. They have a network – hell Obama’s world of socialist kids and young adults – that is organized. They have a singular purpose: to insert themselves into conservative conversations and be pests in order to discourage us. They want to enhance our experience of discouragement. They know they can’t win the argument, much less understand how one does win a rational debate. But they do want to fulfill their roles in The Borg.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:40 pm 119. Mongoose:

Phat: it was not my fantasy, it was just my notion of what it would take to turn it around, based on my interaction with Foggy Bottom mandarins.

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:43 pm 120. Subotai Bahadur:

# 37 Doug:
I may be missing a tag, but as the only Chinese currently present here [to the best of my knowledge], and as on who definitely takes umbrage when the “c word” is used as a personal description; I have no problem with twobyfour’s use of it. And the points he makes are dead on. This is just a warm up and test of concept. Keep your codpieces buttoned, it is going to get real active. By the way, I keep hearing rumors of rumors about a Beslan type strike from sources in the preparedness field. That matches up.

I do note that if they hit our schools and kids, I don’t care what the leader of the incoming regime said in his autobiography about “standing with the Muslims” in political ill winds. It will be on. And woe betide any politician who gets in the way.

#109 NahnCee:

We have missing Somalis in Michigan and Minnesota? Do you have any more data on that?

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 29, 2008 - 12:49 pm 121. Josh:

Let’s not overthink this. The multiple, coordinated attack is a hallmark of modern jihad. As is nihilism and immediate pointlessness. If it has roots in the Koran, whatever. The general idea that chaos destroys enemies and leaves space for Sharia law and Islam, is how the Taliban took Afghanistan, but note it hasn’t actually worked anywhere else in the world I can think of in the last thousand years.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:07 pm 122. buddy larsen:

moral equivalence:

I must kill you
so that you must kill me
so that there is no evil
only nature

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:19 pm 123. Captain Ramen:

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. -Matthew 25:40

fred,

And yet we must soldier on. Maybe no possible combination of words, no matter how well thought out, can save a complete degenerate. Maybe they won’t ever get it, even when their skin is melting from a 20kt blast – but perhaps they can help a lurker out there, someone who is starting to question his retarded leftist beliefs in the wake of this atrocity.

Every human being is capable of knowing the truth. So we should never grow tired of trying to open their eyes

#95 twobyfour,

Lucky you, it took 9/11 to make me finally start questioning the indoctrination I had received until then.

They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they’ve done.-Picard, First Contact.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:42 pm 124. Ruby Red:

Bob, your #111: Leaving is not a good option, it never was. The only viable option is to stay within the Republic and work to change the political leadership (who are really our servants) so that they work to carry out the will of the American people rather than the will of a narrow band of oil interests who use a microportion of their historic profits to buy “access” and set (in secret meetings) US energy and defense policy. This we have done. Politicians think only of winning their next election and how much money they need to do it. But the Internet has come of age, and now all of us silent little people with our ten and twenty dollar donations, in aggregate, are a stentorian force to be respected.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:46 pm 125. OldSalt:

They want to enhance our experience of discouragement. They know they can’t win the argument, much less understand how one does win a rational debate. But they do want to fulfill their roles in The Borg. – Fred

Of course, you are correct. RR is not here the learn anything, or teach anything for that matter. He’s here on a mission so righteous that any ends justifies his means, i.e. and the most he can do here is irritate.

However, if he reads my remarks, and actually processes the words, they pose a moral dilemma for him. Words giving life and words giving death can’t be morally co-equal, if he has a life in this world he/she cares about. Again, as I referenced in my remarks to him, the place where these fantastic new-age-try-peace-to-each-according-to-his-ability-to-each-according-to-his-needs philosophy fails is life, where the rubber meets the road. At the end of a barrel of a gun, or at starvation, the difference between good and evil becomes undeniable.

This may be a waste of time, but you never know, even hard-core Marxist eventually have to deal with reality. Russia did. They went from the flowery rhetoric of Marxist/Leninism to todays “We want it because we want it, we’ll take it because we can, and if you try to stop it, you’re dead”. Russia’s perspective is refreshingly forthright, compared to the 80 years of lies that proceeded their curent philosophy.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:47 pm 126. Mongoose:

Fred: RR is fairly representative of younger hipsters in our large cities, NYC is full of them. You obviously have got their number, but I will add that Cultural Marxism is designed to manipulate their weakness, the chief two being youthful arrogance and fear of the world and their place in it. The way around it is to force them to work at real jobs and to meet high standards of education and comportment, or else pay a real economic and social price.

So it is a matter of fixing the schools, shoring up the family, drying up the welfare, NGO and non-profit swamps and not indulging their agitprop.
Oh, and forcing them to face their own personal limitation.

Somehow returning to a sense of shame, perhaps through their families, will also be called for.

And of course, it would mean a turning back to the Judeo-Christian heritage in both the home and the square.

Even then, only a portion will see a change of heart.

(And here I would like to lightly chide you, if I may, for implying that either Judism or Christianity lack rational underpinning and are somehow “irrational”. I would suggest that scientism, logical positivism, scientific materialism, and all of the other modern intellectual vices — Freud, Netchize, Dewy, etc. — are less rational when the totality of the experienced of being is honestly faced in all its mystery. Scientism, our current vice is about as crude of superstition as one can imagine. The faiths of the West certainly have a much richer intellectual and creative tradition — and incidentally have longer track record of thoughtful apologetics — than do our current “spiritual” vices.)

Anyway, this all might sound like a pipe dream, but sooner or later the matter of this cohort has to be dealt with — there is just not enough money out there to sate these people and they add so little that is productive. In the end Obama’s communist project will fail. Along the way it might well wipe out our wealth and end us as a power, but it will fail, either of its own accord or by outright rejection. This may take time and cost much, but it will happen for it cannot work.
Yet these people, with all their programming, will still remain.

Marxism surely is a parody of faith, but it is not truly a faith, it does not seek the eternal for its adherents. It does not seek the light for them for it places man at the center, and that man is a disfigured man, a purely economic man, a man lower than an animal, for it denies all but the gross material world. It views man as merely a collection of appetites to be satisfied, thereby manipulating him. In denying God, in in proscription of all but the material, it denies man’s true nature and his true world.

It seeks to destroy much more than just political systems: It is a profound sin against the Spirit,

So, we will need to find a way to deal with these sort, though granted the forum to interact with them is not here at BC.

BC requires too much culture (in the best sense), knowledge, education, good faith, humility and yes, even honor.
It requires, oddly enough, a sense of shame.

And RR does not even bring in information, not even as a clinical example.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:47 pm 127. Mongoose:

Netchize=Nietzsche (Freudian slop there, teehee)

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:52 pm 128. Mark E:

@109 Nahncee, @112 Twobyfour et al

Perhaps the current generation (= immigrants to the west search for a better life) can be assimalated.

But what about the 2nd & 3rd gens?

As I recall, the 7-7 Terrs in Brit were children or grandchildren of ‘asians’ who had settled in Britian before & slightly after the breakup of the Empire.

The evidence seems to suggest that,unlike the waves of immigration to the US where the later generations are more ‘Americanized’, the islamics follow the opposite trend, becoming more radical.

Nov 29, 2008 - 1:53 pm 129. fred:

“(And here I would like to lightly chide you, if I may, for implying that either Judism or Christianity lack rational underpinning and are somehow “irrational”’ Mongoose at #126

I think you may have misunderstood what I had written. I don’t think getting away from Christianity is a good thing. Never have. We may have different locations on the theological spectrum (I’m neither a Leftist Catholic nor a conservative one), but it does not mean I am reflexively critical of tradition – think I’ve explained that a bit on another thread. You would be amazed at how much I’ve shifted to the right of where I was theologically thirty years ago. But I have my reasons for THAT too, and I think they are well thought out. I think you and I should call a truce on this topic. If you think I’m some sort of deviant/heretic, then just shout it from the rooftops and be done with it. That way the other members here can then neatly put me in my appropriate pigeonhole and move on.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:01 pm 130. OldSalt:

And yet we must soldier on. Maybe no possible combination of words, no matter how well thought out, can save a complete degenerate. Maybe they won’t ever get it, even when their skin is melting from a 20kt blast – but perhaps they can help a lurker out there, someone who is starting to question his retarded leftist beliefs in the wake of this atrocity. Every human being is capable of knowing the truth. So we should never grow tired of trying to open their eyes – Captain Ramen

We’re pretty much on the same page.

Since we’re quoting scripture, I’d also mention that the Bible indicates the first thing sin does to a man or woman is corrupt their reasoning ability. So, the convoluted reasoning of the dedicated atheist/Marxist is no great surprise to a literate Christian. But words can enlighten as well as corrupt, and we have to try.

“For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures … For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator …And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind” – Romans 1:21-28 (excerpted)

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:06 pm 131. twobyfour:

buddy, your #122 is a total lunacy mush.

Not that moral equivalency is not a lunacy and mush, but your descript takes cream as lunacy goes!

Did you get it from those loonies for “world without human beings”? [which for some reason do not produce an example to all others by offing themselves upon signing for membership... puzzling!]

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:06 pm 132. Kirk Parker:

Subotai,

Doug was joking, based on a pun or, perhaps more accurately, two completely different meanings of the word “chink”. But 2×4, in turn, I think used a malapropism: although there is a phrase “chinks in the armor”, “chink” is never used in isolation in that way. If I were his editor, I’d suggest that what he really meant to write was “get the kinks out”, i.e. work out any bugs or flaws in their new procedures.

FWIW.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:07 pm 133. Mongoose:

Fred: I meant no offense, I am in fact giving you credit for serious formal study of your faith and it traditions — something all too rare these day. How does this translate into a need for “a truce”.

How does articulating the richness of our traditions translate into decrying you as “a heretic”> Why do you assume hostility on my part?

As to my post, when i read:

You are dealing with a FAITH, not a rational, systematic thought

I take that to mean that by implication you hold the Judeo-Christian tradition in the same light. I (along with Aquinas) disagree. How is this personal?

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:13 pm 134. Mongoose:

Oldsalt: Great quote! That one often haunts me these days.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:18 pm 135. fred:

Mongoose,

The scientific and intellectual side of me looks at the world and wonders at how certain things can exist. Evil and suffering have an organic basis. There are things in existence we have no control over. They are there and we did not bring them into existence. And they are far-reaching in their significance, so one does wonder how they fit into God’s plan and if there are flaws in the blueprint. It’s not a perfect world or a perfect universe. Per our prior discussion about this on another thread I laid out my case for why I am hesitant to take the Bible as the final say in the matter of a certain deviancy. In my mind I wonder about its scientific explanation, since it is observable across species. IS there in fact some point of it all? WHY does it exist? WHAT caused it?

When I was a Jesuit seminarian a certain number of fellow Jesuits in training had this orientation. Living with these men and being so close to their lives, naturally I had a lot of questions about how they became what they are. BTW, all were, as best I can tell, living their vow of chastity quite well. Every one of them had a certain amount of pain in their lives because of who they were. None of them made an explicit, deliberate choice to be this orientation. And so, if that is true and the case, I am left with the questions as to how this came to be. I think my curiosity and my questions are legitimate ones and I find it a bit unfair that because I ask those questions and I speculate about the issue that I am somehow less of a Christian than you are. In fact, I find it insulting. But I have no control over your attitude. I’m not asking you for an accounting of why you think the way you do.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:22 pm 136. twobyfour:

@ 132. Kirk Parker

Yea, a contraction of chinks in the armor and getting kinks out.

Sometimes happens that I am unsure of certain idiom’s specific use and get playful. Just wait until I don’t know any better and interject a full blown literally translated Czechism! Then the fun will begin!

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:37 pm 137. Insufficiently Sensitive:

Many US civilians are armed all the time. If a shootout occurs they take cover and shoot if needed or let the police handle it.

Yeah? Picture the dilemma faced by the local police when they see blokes all over the place behind cars and trees and stone walls, pointing their muskets this way and that, looking for Bad Guys to shoot.

Lots of dead patriotic blokes would be created very quickly since the cop’s vision of guy+gun=target would be smartly acted upon.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:40 pm 138. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Insufficiently Sensitive
RE: Good Point

Yeah? Picture the dilemma faced by the local police when they see blokes all over the place behind cars and trees and stone walls, pointing their muskets this way and that, looking for Bad Guys to shoot.

Lots of dead patriotic blokes would be created very quickly since the cop’s vision of guy+gun=target would be smartly acted upon. — TO: Insufficiently Sensitive

That IS an issue.

So. I guess the best think to do is clean up the mess and put the bad-guys into ‘dirt nap’ mode BEFORE the ‘local yokes’ come out and screw everything up.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The best way to survive a near ambush is to immediately and violently assault directly through the attacking force.]

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:46 pm 139. Ruby Red:

Old Salt: I’d also mention that the Bible indicates the first thing sin does to a man or woman is corrupt their reasoning ability.

Does it lay out exactly how this happens, or does it just make a bare assertion which we are supposed to accept, ironically, on bare scriptural authority?

And when Paul says long hair for men is unnatural what sort of reasoning does he use for that? Surely not the sort that is based on observation. If a man lets no blade touch his head, he will naturally grow long hair so why would it be shameful to him?

1Cor.11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Josh: …chaos destroys enemies and leaves space for Sharia law and Islam, is how the Taliban took Afghanistan, but note it hasn’t actually worked anywhere else in the world I can think of in the last thousand years.

Then why fear Sharia overtaking Europe if it only takes root in places without an infrastructure, without a culture, without reason, without hope? You’re right, Sharia doesn’t work. Seventh Century Islam doesn’t work. They are being pounded daily by the influence of Nikes and iPhones and Madonna videos. We fought the Vietnam War to keep Ho Chi Minh from imposing his unworkable Stalinist model on the South, and we lost, and he imposed his model, and it failed as predicted, and now after a reverse domino effect Vietnam is a model of wild west capitalism as they struggle to keep up with uber-capitalist China. The Cold War was a colossal waste of time, money, and lives. Ditto the Long War.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:47 pm 140. Peter Boston:

Speaking of Czechisms – isn’t Havel as President of the Eurps a hoot?

A yin and yang. Obama the Leftie CEO of the Rightie ‘Mericans and Havel the Rightie CEO of the Leftie Eurps.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:50 pm 141. twobyfour:

@ 137. Insufficiently Sensitive

Your point? You present an utterly improbable scenario and consider it a valid point for a discussion?

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:51 pm 142. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Ruby Red

Interesting, isn’t it….

….that these cretins just ask question and never provide answers.

Typical devilishness on their part.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Progressive is a one-word oxymoron.]

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:52 pm 143. twobyfour:

@ 140. Peter Boston

Havel? Nope. [Besides, Havel is somewhat an idealist of a slight-lefty streak]

Vaclav Klaus, a Thatcher disciple. Else all the rest is correct. Yea, he is making eurolefties cross themselves! LOL!

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:56 pm 144. Peter Boston:

Oh well. Right continent.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:57 pm 145. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Insufficiently Sensitive
RE: Additionally

Maybe we ought to start taking the wives to ‘paint ball’ competitions. With settings involving urbanized terrain?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Be prepared. -- Boy Scout motto]

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:59 pm 146. buddy larsen:

i agree completely with old salt #125. the russians are much better as is than as was. Putin is not even an unadmirable adversary –sure, he’s on the on the other side, but there’s no horsesh*t to him, and he accepts the consequences of his actions. If he was using the old USSR ”peace” and ”worker’s paradise” propaganda, he’d suck as bad as brezhnev & co.

Nov 29, 2008 - 2:59 pm 147. Foul Harold:

@RR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZkYWdt4yqg&feature=related

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:00 pm 148. buddy larsen:

peter boston @ 144, whichever is the one who so regulary and comprehensively savages Al Gore, is the one whose name to keep straight. I’d tell you which one that is but i er ah have to um shovel the lawn right quick –

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:04 pm 149. twobyfour:

buddy @ 148

That’d be Klaus.

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:24 pm 150. Dave:

Buddy #146 and Old Salt #125

I would like to add that the capabilities of the old USSR were based on a massive infusion
of Western (primarily American) industry during WWII.

In contrast, Putins’ capabilities are based on peddling hydrocarbons at inflated prices.
In certain ways he has better reflexes than his predecessors but he certainly lacks their mass of muscle. He can be a problem, but not on a scale as before.

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:29 pm 151. Mongoose:

Fred: But I am articulating a position, I am certainly not saying that I am “more Christian than you.” You might consider the notion that you may be casting onto me a role of interlocutor your own internal arguments, frustrations and doubts.

I have hardly been unfair in putting forth an honorable position (orthodox or not), and to call that unfair on my part does me a disservice. I should think it unfair for me not to put forward my position, and condescending to withhold it — to do otherwise is to say that I do not take you seriously in the most serious of matters.

Again, there is no hostility and no condescension. I do not see why you are taking it that way. I take no offense.

We where discussing the issue of imps like RR and what to do about them, not homosexuality. I am willing to discuss it but it seems directly appropriate to this thread. So your reference back to that discussion puzzles me.

But as to that other discussion so far as it involves the notions of the “imperfections of the world”, circumstances “beyond our control”. and how we live in such a world with free will, there are several traditional and well thought out answers.

You seem not to be open to a discussion of them so I will not irritate you with them, but there are out there if you seek them out.

But I must say when I hear phrases like:

The scientific and intellectual side of me

and

You are dealing with a FAITH, not a rational, systematic thought

I have to speak out because I feel that you are not affording yourself the fullness of the Judeo-Christian heritage, which is rich in intellectual observation and argument about it’s beliefs and doctrines — they are hardly arbitrary, irrational, or based on bigotry,ignorance or superstition. They are in fact based on at least 3 millennia of exacting and brutally honest of observation of this word and mankind’s place within it. IMO, no other faith has anything at all approaching this, and that includes many secular “faiths” that are held to be epitomes of “rationalism”.

I fear that you are misusing the term “scientific” (”inquiring”?), verging toward scientism and not opening up your intellect to the fullness of our tradition.

(None of my business, I know, but nonetheless…)

As you no doubt well know, these things have been pondered before and by people with all of our capabilities, capacity for observation, doubts and questions. It behooves to avail ourselves of what it has to offer, and to do so as deeply as we can. We will not get out of this mess we are in without it.

This is the delusion of our times, that we are the first people to look mankind fully in the face. This is far from the case. In fact, with the myopia of scientism (and not science) we miss a great deal indeed about our true nature.

Pointing this out is part of being a Conservative.

Again I meant no offense, but was seeking the truth of things in my way. That is what this forum is for as far as I am concerned.

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:35 pm 152. Dave:

BTW Old Salt: I understand you are of Russian descent, so have been meaning to ask you something.

Russian, that is Great Russians or White Russians, are distinctly caucasian.

Does this not lead Americans to ass-u-me that they are “like us” culturally when in fact they are culturally well removed from us?

I suddenly recall George C. Scott as Patton stating that Russians were “asiatics”. That is probably not the right descriptive word but it might well illuminate a few things.

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:36 pm 153. NahnCee:

Posting Try Number Two – as a link got snagged in Try Number One:

“Yeah? Picture the dilemma faced by the local police when they see blokes all over the place behind cars and trees and stone walls, pointing their muskets this way and that, looking for Bad Guys to shoot.”

Then the Mexicans had better put on their sombrero’s toot sweet, because anyone with brown skin is going to be looked at *real* closely both by the cops and by Real Americans, perhaps through a sniper scope. After 9/11, a friend of mine with Egyptian parents was hyperventilating about all the poor picked-on Muslims in Los Angeles, and how lucky she was that she could pass for Mexican. We are rapidly reaching the point of “shoot first and ask questions in Spanish later”.

///

Subotai – November 25-26, it was reported in various places that 15-20 young Somali men had gone missing from their families in the Twin Cities area. Just Google “missing Somali’s” and you’ll get an overview of the stories.

At that point, it was conjectured that they had returned to Somalia to kill other Muslims in their internicene battles there, but now I’m thinking it would be much more fun for an aspiring teenaged gunman to head to Mumbai, or maybe to try to duplicate the same operation here in America. Somali’s have a very distinctive look. It’s fairly easy to pick them out of a crowd, which makes me wonder how it would be so easy for them to wander away from their families and become lost … unless they had someone waiting to scoop them up and help them.

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:37 pm 154. Mongoose:

honest of observation of this word=honest observation of this world

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:38 pm 155. Ruby Redinger:

Buddy Larson, it is kind of pathetic and sad to see Putin kicking around with his last buddy, Hugo Chavez. Soon they won’t be able to cash in on Bush Derangement Syndrome and what will they have left? A sustained period of $30 oil ought to make these “strongmen” irrelevant and embolden their people to come up with retirement plans for them. Let things get a little worse and the choice will come to stepping down easy for a long term retirement, or “immediate” retirement with a bullet to the head.

(My sincere apologies to everyone who got hacked off by me goofing off around here the last couple of days. I’m not really a loony lefty lesbian Obama supporter, I’m a center-right Bob Barr voter who has been posting on the BC since 2006 when it was on the OLD old blogspot site, before Richard moved it. I’m through trolling now. Thank you.)

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:49 pm 156. twobyfour:

@ 155

Apologies? Your apologies?

You need to grovel with uncanny sincerity for about a week and lick all of our toilet bowls by your tongue for this!

Nov 29, 2008 - 3:58 pm 157. Ruby Redinger:

I don’t know, 2 x 4, I didn’t have a lot of friends before I diddit, and I don’t think I made a lot of friends when I diddit. Same thing happened over at the Elephant Bar. I can’t help that, but I do fit in a lot better here when I post what I really think. So I’ll try that for a while.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:03 pm 158. twobyfour:

@ 155

OTOH, your actions are an equivalent of spam.

And I shoot spammers. On sight. They are on the same level as jihadis as I am concerned. You are soooo lucky that I can’t send a bullet through the wires!

My only hope is that you’ve acquired a really nasty karma. May you live in interesting times!

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:08 pm 159. Peter Boston:

Not to say such behavior is also weird.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:10 pm 160. Alexis:

Mongoose:

For over a decade, I have thought about how one would go about shifting the mindset of America’s diplomatic corps. One reason why I didn’t join the diplomatic service is because I knew I would be surrounded by a corporate culture hostile to my personality.

I’m not so sure that locking out Ivy Leaguers would be a good idea. (After all, that would lock out Richard Fernandez!) Instead, I think we need a meritocracy where merit is defined differently than it has been for the past sixty years. If we are to continue using a civil service exam, the Foreign Service Exam needs a dramatic overhaul.

We need to recruit diplomats from state universities, and not merely graduates with Political Science or International Studies degrees. We also need to promote a better curriculum for those interested in foreign policy. We need more history and less fluff. More hard science and less pontification. More theology and less indoctrination. More languages and less “ethnic studies”. We need better faculty who are more interested in accurately describing reality than in creating utopia.

The key is not merely increasing the quality of our diplomats, but also bringing them into the Foreign Service in sufficient numbers so the Foggy Bottom corporate culture can’t root out the younger and smarter people.

Is this possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. I don’t think it’s utopian, but I do think it is difficult. And it would require a major shift in America’s domestic balance of power.

Also, it may be wise to shift the capital of the United States of American from Washington DC to a city (preferably with plenty of water) in the middle of the country. This geographical shift will probably shift America’s foreign policy in a radical way because discussions of a nation’s foreign policy are frequently dominated by the parochialism of a nation’s capital.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:23 pm 161. Storm-Rider:

Ruby Red said: “Bush declared a crusade against the terrorists and any nation or group which harbored them or supported them… And he predicted certain victory because “God is not neutral” and America was the promoter of “infinite justice”. Which means divine justice…His achievement was to slap a Protestant eschatological whitewash on it and make it palatable to the rapture-ready set.”

President Roosevelt declared a crusade against Nazi Germany, and any nation or group which allied with them. President Roosevelt stated that our war against the Nazis was “righteous”, and “they fight to let justice arise”. President Roosevelt led the American nation in prayer to God, saying “I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer…let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts…” President Roosevelt continued his public prayer “Oh Lord, give us faith; give us faith in Thee, faith in our sons, faith in each other, faith in our united crusade…With Thy blessing we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country…Thy will be done, Almighty God.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUy1ejRq9RE

I have news for you; God really isn’t neutral in the struggle of people to defend their God-given rights to life and liberty over the political and military forces of tyranny and evil. There is such a thing as infinite, divine justice. Red Robin, you appear to be an anti-American Marxist agitator and deceiver, and an anti-Protestant bigot. President Roosevelt was Protestant, and so was George Washington, Thomas Jefferson (unorthodox Protestant), Patrick Henry, John Adams, Samuel Adams and most of the rest of our founding fathers. Protestants established the United States and wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:26 pm 162. whiskey:

137 — We have examples of that as recent as the UT Bell Tower shooting. Cops and citizens cooperated to pin the shooter down to mount an assault on the tower.

Current police doctrine now says fight the bad guys immediately, to get inside their decision loop, no more Columbines. More likely a “Raise your right hand” impromptu drafting of civilians to confront the bad guys.

Quite likely we will see this in NYC given it’s geographic uniqueness and large amount of Muslims for support. The only people carrying guns in NYC are rappers and NFL players. A different environment.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:26 pm 163. twobyfour:

No, I won’t tell how I really feel.

Troll, there is only one thing you can do to redeem yourself and be forgiven.

Okay, one thing means a package…

You tell us your new nick. Has to be different than any variation on the troll name. Then you would take a week long sabbatical from posting on BC. You promise that you will never again troll not only here, but anywhere. When you return, you will be allowed to speak your mind, but only as you, not as imaginary entities. This is pending on general agreement here with the package and Richard’s forgiveness, ultimately.

Don’t try to weasel out of it, else I can tell you that my local voodoo priestess has definitely her mojo workin.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:28 pm 164. Tony:

It went on too long, it wouldn’t have gone on this long in Miami or Vegas or Manhattan, and this meme that just 10 guys can do this kind of op is very destructive.

And most likely not true, just a ruse that enemy KIA comprise all and every suicidally dedicated hero.

Consider the Indian response and compare to the NY FD, PD and New York Port Authority response to 9/11 – Americans poured into the breech, as natural as breathing. They ran into burning skyscrapers, words fail to describe their valor….

Consider: 76 Queens firefighters, 37 Port Authority police officers and the 23 other members of the New York City Police Department died on 9/11.

With hundreds of civilians dying, this Mumbai attack took too long to quell, with all due respect to our Indian brothers and allies.

I can imagine the AR-15 toting cops at St. Patrick’s Cathedral roaring over to Times Square if this happened here, and all their city, state and fed brothers and sisters charging into the breech to beat them there.

This took too long, it’s a global media Tet Offensive, a classic psy-op, as other Belmont Clubbers have noted. Imvho – Once the bad guys are killing civilians like this, everything-we-got is the only appropriate response.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:29 pm 165. fear Obama:

Don’t ever give up right to bear arms-

It is the photograph that has dominated the world’s front pages, casting an astonishing light on the fresh-faced killers who brought terror to the heart of India’s most vibrant city. Now it can be revealed how the astonishing picture came to be taken by a newspaper photographer who hid inside a train carriage as gunfire erupted all around him.

Sebastian D’Souza, a picture editor at the Mumbai Mirror, whose offices are just opposite the city’s Chhatrapati Shivaji station, heard the gunfire erupt and ran towards the terminus. “I ran into the first carriage of one of the trains on the platform to try and get a shot but couldn’t get a good angle, so I moved to the second carriage and waited for the gunmen to walk by,” he said. “They were shooting from waist height and fired at anything that moved. I briefly had time to take a couple of frames using a telephoto lens. I think they saw me taking photographs but theydidn’t seem to care.”

The gunmen were terrifyingly professional, making sure at least one of them was able to fire their rifle while the other reloaded. By the time he managed to capture the killer on camera, Mr D’Souza had already seen two gunmen calmly stroll across the station concourse shooting both civilians and policemen, many of whom, he said, were armed but did not fire back. “I first saw the gunmen outside the station,” Mr D’Souza said. “With their rucksacks and Western clothes they looked like backpackers, not terrorists, but they were very heavily armed and clearly knew how to use their rifles.

“Towards the station entrance, there are a number of bookshops and one of the bookstore owners was trying to close his shop,” he recalled. “The gunmen opened fire and the shopkeeper fell down.”

But what angered Mr D’Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back.
“There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything,” he said. “At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!’ but they just didn’t shoot back.”

As the gunmen fired at policemen taking cover across the street, Mr D’Souza realised a train was pulling into the station unaware of the horror within. “I couldn’t believe it. We rushed to the platform and told everyone to head towards the back of the station. Those who were older and couldn’t run, we told them to stay put.”

The militants returned inside the station and headed towards a rear exit towards Chowpatty Beach. Mr D’Souza added: “I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.”

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:34 pm 166. Ruby:

Storm Rider: God really isn’t neutral in the struggle of people to defend their God-given rights to life and liberty over the political and military forces of tyranny and evil.

Respectfully I must disagree that liberty is a God-given right, because Paul said in Colossians 3:22 (NASB) “Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.”

And there are other verses in Romans and one epistle of Peter which mandate the divine right of kings over the rights of their subjects.

As a libertarian I hold liberty to be a virtue, of course, but it is something asserted by man, not granted by a supreme being.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:48 pm 167. twobyfour:

@ 164. Tony

9/11 structures were a static target type. This was a dynamic op, planned to exacerbate the confusion. Makes quite a diff. Indians did the best they could, given that they had no idea about the scope. You are probably disregarding some logistic issues that we are not aware of, as well.

Someone that monitors jihadi forums concluded that an op planned in US will be executed in 3-4 different locations at the same time (think spread like Seattle, LA, NYC, Atlanta), with each location having a different scope, target and mode of execution, and dragged to the max time frame for max demoralization, with expected minimum duration of 5-7 days.

Imagine if Beslan v2.0 is a part of the package, then it may as well take that long and be fustratingly paralysing.

Nov 29, 2008 - 4:57 pm 168. twobyfour:

@ 165. fear Obama

The police at the terminal not shooting back… that is an interesting detail. Not sure how to interpret it. Bad RoE? Breakdown of chain of command?

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:09 pm 169. twobyfour:

@ #166

Read #163.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:14 pm 170. Wadeusaf:

Terisita? I agree, you make a piss poor lib’ral, but you do tend to piss folk off. It is a gift, I think it is. You pose a much better greater mental challenge stating and asking questions in your own voice. This Ruby Redinger in just irritating nonsense, as well an insult to the Redingers I know.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:15 pm 171. DanM:

Ruby Red – Hey Teresita, howya been?

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:21 pm 172. DanM:

Wade beat me by a minute or so…

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:22 pm 173. marymcl:

@155 “My sincere apologies to everyone who got hacked off by me goofing off around here the last couple of days. I’m not really….etc”

Your “sincere” apologies, huh? I can imagine how this works for you in real life.

Here’s the deal. It doesn’t matter who you voted for or how long you’ve been doing this. It’s a matter of trust, civility, mutual respect and a presumption of good faith.

Think about it, Wormtongue. Trust is like water – easy to squander, hard to get back. Try getting anywhere without it.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:26 pm 174. Ruby:

WadeUSAF, my husband of 19 years is a Redinger, which makes me one too.

Tony, #164, global Tet Offensive? One hopes. Tet was a failure that cost the North Vietnamese battle deaths in the ratio of 30 or 40 of their troops to every one of ours and failed to inspire a general uprising in the south. If you are thinking about the way the American people turned against the war, that has already happened in the case of the Long War thanks to the diversion in Iraq. Since the terrorists have already won the battle of the media, the only thing left is the body count. And we can step up for that.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:34 pm 175. Wadeusaf:

Police training makes a huge difference. In the US and other places the police are really expected to have to use the irons on their hips. I don’t think most police in Asia put in that much time thinking it through. That little girl shooting in the U-tube clip has probably more experience now than any ten of the cops at the train station. And even training is no guarantor that a fellow will actually be able to pull the trigger on another human being, even one who is actively engaged in cold blooded murder.

It does make me wonder what kinds of things those cops were practiced at doing.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:35 pm 176. twobyfour:

@ 175. Wadeusaf:

It does make me wonder what kinds of things those cops were practiced at doing.

Bribetaking?

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:43 pm 177. marymcl:

@162 “The only people carrying guns in NYC are rappers and NFL players.”

Not true – it just depends where you are. Manhattan is ultra-liberal and gets all the attention, but I grew up in Queens and you’d be surprised how many ordinary working people have guns. You just don’t hear about it because they’re not out shooting anybody with them.

Nov 29, 2008 - 5:49 pm 178. Mongoose:

Alexis: First to the three main matters:
1) If you are suggesting that we draft R. Fernandez to take over State, clean out the stink and set things right, I am all for it, but must ask what will the rest of us do while he is there? Talk about Augean Stables — there will be no time for BC, none at all. This is something to consdier. Still, pair him with Bolton and the world will never be the same again. They could call him the “Conjecture Czar” or something.
And as to him attending the Ivys, well, I doubt that this is what formed him — neither necessary or sufficient in my book. I prefer to think of our host as a force of nature, and the fact he made it out of there with all his gifts intact just goes to show how right I am about this.

2) About moving the Capital to a Midwestern city near a body of water. Well, i am all behind this too and get your point, but let me point out that this would clearly put Chicago in the running, in fact in the lead and, given current events, this gives me pause. I urge caution here.

3) As to a career for you at the DoS: I travel a bit and know a lot of people at Foggy Bottom. I always look forward to your posts here and you are right, you would not last long at Foggy Bottom. Maybe a month. Too intelligent and have way too much command of English. You also have consider opinions that ou have formed on your own. You could probable fake you way in though.

But seriously…

I basically agree with everything you say. I guess I was being a little glib about the Ivys (I went to them too, BTW). I do think that they are one of the roots of the problem over there — and at Langley too for that matter. It has to do with an elitist sense of entitlement that is completely unearned and a truely scary sense of superiority, also unwarranted. Then there is this matter of being completely detached from reality altogether. On top of that, it does sseem to me that in many fields the quality of the degrees from them have actually gotten much worse than the rest of the schools in the country. Folks seem to come out just soaked in PC cant and self righteousness, a near psychotic arrogance and seem to lack even basic knowledge of their field (not to mention the sort of knowledge of our civilization –or even the English language — that we used to expect out of high school students). With all the post-modernist/deconstructionist idiocy in their brains, some cannot even think straight. So I have really lost faith in them has representing the best and the brightest in many fields (Obama’s HLS experience notwithstanding). Think GM and Toyota. (I do understand that things are not exactly rosy in the state universtiy systems either).

As you say, what we really need is a real meritocracy and one that defines “merit” in some way other than it is now. Certainly you are right here too, better a philosophy major with a solid foreign language then some one in “African Lesbian studies”. Someone with a brain might help too. The point is we do not want the Ivy academics, think tanks etc. to define what this merit is or having a say in who get hired. It just all becomes a sort of labor union otherwise.

And sure, you are are right as well about the taming the bureaucracy. This is why I suggested moving people around and hiring more “political” appointment. I guess there needs to be a way to take people in at various stages in some other career and then release them back to that career. I think we need more business people and people with real and practical skills and knowledge (e.g., engineering, medicine) but would not rule out the odd poet or pianist. It would be nice to have everyone have at east a cursory knowledge if Western civilization and American history.

A core problem is the notion of “career foreign service bureaucrats”. This leads to sclerosis that you rightly point out. We need to find a way to manage this. We will always have this element; they need to be balanced somehow.

But I quite agree with you.

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:00 pm 179. buddy larsen:

i dunno much about Hindu, but that it greatly values the life in living things –could be those cops under stress just fell back on an early childhood-inculcated aversion to killing. but, y’know. training –if that happened, then it’s the training. decidedly inadequate. As to the length of time it took to end it –that building is not just huge but is a huge warren of separate little boxes –and full of hostages, too.

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:16 pm 180. Mongoose:

Oh they just freaked out — the gunmen where running around in backpacks; they looked like college kids, computer programmers. Who has trained for this? Standard security personnel? It is like shooting at your kid brother. They froze. They are hardly Delta Force operators, I’d bet that the vast majority of them never shot a person, never had a real human being in their sites. It is one of the most difficult things in the world to do, shooting dead another human being.

Not the next time though.

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:43 pm 181. Mongoose:

sight*

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:44 pm 182. Storm-Rider:

Ruby: “Respectfully I must disagree that liberty is a God-given right, because Paul said in Colossians 3:22 (NASB) “Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth”

Sorry, Ruby, but Paul lived before the dawn of political human liberty. It took our founding fathers with enlightenment philosophers such as John Locke to formulate a superior political system which acknowledged the sacredness of human rights and a rational means of securing the same. Paul may have been a founding father of Christianity, but he was not God. Paul’s religious teachings are fine, but they are sometimes contradictory and sometimes anachronistic for our time; and his political philosophy can be safely ignored. Speaking of Paul, he also wrote this: “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

Ruby, you contradict Thomas Jefferson and John Locke, so I must choose their political philosophy and not yours our Paul’s.

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?” Thomas Jefferson

“Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.” Thomas Jefferson

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:47 pm 183. Storm-Rider:

Ruby, You’re ideas on human liberty contradict those of the founding of the United States.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…” Thomas Jefferson

“I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” Thomas Jefferson

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:51 pm 184. Wadeusaf:

@176. twobyfour:
“Bribetaking?”
Not what I was thinking, but there is probably always a little of that. Is the weapon a decoration for the policemen involved? I wonder if they had any bullets in them, seriously. Because even with the religious issue, and that is a very astute observation Buddy, and even if the training was piss poor, I would hope that at least one of the cops, perhaps would have acted to defend the public. But they did not even draw their weapons, at least that is what I am gathering from the reporters account.

Nov 29, 2008 - 6:56 pm 185. NahnCee:

Agree that three days was too long. Read something somewhere else that the commando’s were held up waiting in their helicopters to fly in from New Delhi while VIP politicians rushed to the airport to arrive at the same time. Politicians must have a much longer shelf-life in India than they do here, if they do stuff that stupid very often.

Ruby refers to lying, cheating and disrespect as “goofing”. I wonder what it would take for Ruby to take something seriously — and how you’d know. I still vote that she/he/it be banned by management as being too icky to be around and bringing absolutely nothing to the party.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:11 pm 186. Storm-Rider:

twobyfour: “I went through the indoctrination as a kid, growing up in “workers’ paradise”, and by age of 10 I started to notice the discrepancies between the screed and reality”

You are in good company on this point – that Marxist Socialism contradicts reality and is based on irrationality.

“But how to understand a teaching which in its ideal version includes both an appeal to freedom and a program for the establishment of slavery? Or how to reconcile the impassioned condemnation of the old order and quite justified indignation at the suffering of the poor and the oppressed with the fact that the same teachings envisage no less suffering for these oppressed masses as the lot of whole generations prior to the triumph of social justice? Thus Marx foresees fifteen, perhaps even fifty years of civil war for the proletariat, and Mao Tse-tung is ready to accept the loss of half of humanity in a nuclear war for the sake of establishing a socialist structure in the world. A call for sacrifices on this scale might sound convincing on the lips of a religious leader appealing to a truth beyond this world. But not from convinced atheists. It would seem that socialism lacks that feature which, in mathematics, for example, is considered the minimal condition for the existence of a concept: a definition free of contradictions.” Igor Shafarevich

http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html

“World socialism as a whole, and all the figures associated with it, are shrouded in legend; its contradictions are forgotten or concealed; it does not respond to arguments but continually ignores them–all this stems from the mist of irrationality that surrounds socialism and from its instinctive aversion to scientific analysis…. The doctrines of socialism seethe with contradictions, its theories are at constant odds with its practice, yet due to a powerful instinct–also laid bare by Shafarevich–these contradictions do not in the least hinder the unending propaganda of socialism. Indeed, no precise, distinct socialism even exists; instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something noble and good, of equality, communal ownership, and justice: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach…. The author also convincingly demonstrates the diametrical opposition between the concepts of man held by religion and by socialism. Socialism seeks to reduce human personality to its most primitive levels and to extinguish the highest, most complex, and “God-like” aspects of human individuality. And even equality itself, that powerful appeal and great promise of socialists throughout the ages, turns out to signify not equality of rights, of opportunities, and of external conditions, but equality qua identity, equality seen as the movement of variety toward uniformity…. It could probably be said that the majority of states in the history of mankind have been “socialist.” But it is also true that these were in no sense periods or places of human happiness or creativity.” Alexander Solzhenitsyn

http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:32 pm 187. Storm-Rider:

twobyfour: “I went through the indoctrination as a kid, growing up in “workers’ paradise”, and by age of 10 I started to notice the discrepancies between the screed and reality”

You are in good company on this point – that Marxist Socialism contradicts reality and is based on irrationality.

“But how to understand a teaching which in its ideal version includes both an appeal to freedom and a program for the establishment of slavery? Or how to reconcile the impassioned condemnation of the old order and quite justified indignation at the suffering of the poor and the oppressed with the fact that the same teachings envisage no less suffering for these oppressed masses as the lot of whole generations prior to the triumph of social justice? Thus Marx foresees fifteen, perhaps even fifty years of civil war for the proletariat, and Mao Tse-tung is ready to accept the loss of half of humanity in a nuclear war for the sake of establishing a socialist structure in the world. A call for sacrifices on this scale might sound convincing on the lips of a religious leader appealing to a truth beyond this world. But not from convinced atheists. It would seem that socialism lacks that feature which, in mathematics, for example, is considered the minimal condition for the existence of a concept: a definition free of contradictions.” Igor Shafarevich

robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html

“World socialism as a whole, and all the figures associated with it, are shrouded in legend; its contradictions are forgotten or concealed; it does not respond to arguments but continually ignores them–all this stems from the mist of irrationality that surrounds socialism and from its instinctive aversion to scientific analysis…. The doctrines of socialism seethe with contradictions, its theories are at constant odds with its practice, yet due to a powerful instinct–also laid bare by Shafarevich–these contradictions do not in the least hinder the unending propaganda of socialism. Indeed, no precise, distinct socialism even exists; instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something noble and good, of equality, communal ownership, and justice: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach…. The author also convincingly demonstrates the diametrical opposition between the concepts of man held by religion and by socialism. Socialism seeks to reduce human personality to its most primitive levels and to extinguish the highest, most complex, and “God-like” aspects of human individuality. And even equality itself, that powerful appeal and great promise of socialists throughout the ages, turns out to signify not equality of rights, of opportunities, and of external conditions, but equality qua identity, equality seen as the movement of variety toward uniformity…. It could probably be said that the majority of states in the history of mankind have been “socialist.” But it is also true that these were in no sense periods or places of human happiness or creativity.” Alexander Solzhenitsyn

robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:33 pm 188. Alexis:

Mongoose:

I don’t want Chicago to be the capital. I was thinking more along the lines of Oklahoma City. (Oklahoma has many water reservoirs necessary for creating a federal capital.) In my thinking, any city with a deeply entrenched street gang problem should be ruled out. Any city with a labyrinth of ethnically based lobbies that function as domestic arms of foreign embassies should also be ruled out.

The idea of political appointments makes sense in theory, but I am worried about their actual effects in fact. Territorial New Mexico had a horrendous problem with bad schoolteachers because teaching children wasn’t nearly as important as having the right connections to a local political boss. (Nepotism within New Mexico’s prison system was a key factor contributing to the infamous 1980 prison uprising.) I’m also worried that political appointments would merely replace Foggy Bottom’s present hiring practices with some Soros-funded thinktank with a license to stack the diplomatic establishment with its flunkies. I do think we need to increase the proportion of political appointees in diplomacy, but I’m not sure that politicizing the problem will necessarily solve it.

I agree with you about the need to root out the kind of stuffy elitism that draws oxygen out of a room as soon as the bureaucrat walks in the door. We need people with various areas of expertise, especially “Renaissance men” who know how to hold a civilized conversation. We need to imagine what an “ideal diplomat” should be and what an “ideal diplomatic corps” should be, and I think this can be done.

I think we need a semi-political shift in the qualifications to become a diplomat. It would be “political” in the sense that elected officials who are accountable to the public must set the criteria for hiring any new employee. It would not be “political” in the sense of letting thinktanks stack our diplomatic corps with their minions. Hiring of new employees should be taken away from the State Department, but it should also be taken away from the thinktanks. Perhaps a bipartisan and geographically diverse committee established by Congress could hire people based upon the Foreign Service Exam Score, previous work experience, and key skills he or she could bring to the State Department. (One of the reasons why the military hasn’t succumbed to the same ideological pressures as Foggy Bottom and Langley is a geographical state-based quota for people getting into prestigious military academies.)

I hate to use quotas of any kind, but if the Ivy League’s dominance over Foggy Bottom and Langley is too entrenched for a new meritocracy to dislodge, one might consider assigning a maximum number of slots for each college or university for hiring purposes. For example, there might be a limit of twelve slots for Harvard graduates and two slots for any one major from Harvard. The result would either open up the diplomatic corps to graduates of state universities or (more likely) geographically disperse families that historically dominate the Foreign Service. Given the Ivy League’s embrace of affirmative action and its historical quotas against Jews, such a collegiate quota system for diplomacy and espionage would be highly ironic.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:36 pm 189. marymcl:

Here we go – a report the Mumbai terrorists hijacked a ship at sea

http://www.eaglespeak.us/

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:41 pm 190. fred:

Mongoose,

I was responding to a prolonged exchange between us which began with you calling into question my standing in the Church because I have a position that does not square with orthodox teaching in a certain matter. And it is true that you are standing on solid ground, as far as being in agreement with the doctrine is concerned. I felt that I had to at least explain why I have doubts about the doctrine and why I do. I have no vested interest in the doctrine, since I am not gay. But I do have questions. I don’t succumb to “scientism.” I never have, since I am not a physicalist reductionist. But there are defects and oddities in nature THAT WE DID NOT BRING INTO BEING. Homosexuality, whether it be human or animal, is quite outside the norm. But many people, on both sides, talk about it in terms of a lifestyle choice when the gay people I knew were not making a lifestyle choice, as if they have some kind of erotic menu in front of them. I was never aware that I had a menu in front of me which I could choose from and decide who and what I was going to be. I’ve never been attracted to other males and I can well imagine that my experience is overwhelmingly descriptive of how most people come into their sexual identity. They don’t make a conscious choice. It’s just the case that they are being who and what they are. I’ve talked with a fair number of these people; they tell me they’ve always been this way. And so, I ask myself the question, “If that is so, then what exactly is it about these people?” Now I can well imagine ancient Jewish rabbis asking themselves questions about human sexuality and what it is that God expects, and looking at gay people and saying, “This is just so outside of the norm and offensive to us that it has to violate some law of God.” And as a general observation at the time, it made sense. But no one around in those days was asking the questions about human identity that we are asking today, since we’ve learned that at least some aspects of who we consciously and unconsciously are have an organic basis. Evil has an organic basis. There really are people out there who have been, from childhood onward, BAD TO THE BONE. They have no conscience, no empathy, and no desire to conform to some kind of social constraints. They care nothing about who they hurt and how much. Most normal people do have a sense of guilt, in some degree. But there are monsters who do not. And we are learning that there well may be an organic basis for this evil. Just as there is disease of all kinds, so too do exist outliers of human cognition and personality that defy our understanding. God only knows why this exists.

All I do is ask reasonable questions about these things. I pray about them too, as well as intellectually ponder them. At least I’m honest enough to know that there are things we don’t know and understand. So, Mongoose, all I’m doing is defending the right of my conscience and intellect to ask questions about our traditions and doctrines. Some people may not be comfortable with that. I cannot help their discomfort.

We got into this long exchange across two threads about this topic because on the prior thread I felt I was being admonished by you (”as a former seminarian you should know…”). I did tell NahnCee that I was not in favor of gay marriage and I stated what I thought were compelling reasons for me to be against it, while at the same time telling her that not all Christians are of the same mind or same reasoning in these matters.

Your candor and honesty are not unappreciated or disapproved of by me.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:56 pm 191. Someone75:

Andrew X:

As a member of the idiot brigade yourself, are you really in a position to point fingers? You’ve furthered plenty of false claims directed at Obama and liberals in general. It’s funny how selective your memory can be.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:58 pm 192. twobyfour:

Lookee, Obot! And making no sense whatsoever. Atta surprise!

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:17 pm 193. NahnCee:

It’s prolly just Ruby “goofing” again. Off thread, making up shit, and bringing nothing to the party.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:08 am 194. Aethur Nankervis:

23. CPT. Charles:

“… I second Roggio’s instincts on the matter. I KNOW how much ammo weighs, and how quickly you go through it. There is NO way in hell an individual can carry enough munitions to conduct a 20+ hour op.”

CPT. Charles: Have you ever laid out 90 pounds of ammo/ordinance? Its quite a lot. (U.S. servicemen on operational duty carry much more). Movement to targets were by sea and then by acquired vehicles, so there wasn’t much ‘lumping’. Going to die, they would not have carried food, but maybe some water.

“… how quickly you go through it”

Depends on where you receive your training. If they had been trained by the Gurkhas, then it would have been – one shot – one kill. But, like most of those in the lower IQ bracket, they must have been watching and believing, too many US oriented war movies.

“No kiddies, this was a first-rate op…more so because they copied every major aspect of how we do it.”

Other than their moves to their objectives, there doesn’t seem to be much planning behind what they did. By one account, their major objective of inflicting massive casualties in demolishing the hotel (the explosive charges they laid on the hotel’s foundations did nothing but make a noise and shake the place up a bit. So, the most important phase in an attack of this nature, their reconnoissance, failed miserably! Therefore, there is little wonder that all other phases did not go well for them. They were simply left with one option and that was to kill as many as possible with the weapons and ordinance they carried with them and the majority of their victims were unarmed civilians. No great victory there.

“My gut instinct: they had multiple TOC’s [tac ops centers], pre-positioned logistics points, OPs [Observation Points] sited at every major target. They went straight for the crisis leaders and struck their primary and secondary targets with flawless timing, maximizing the amount of ‘defusion’ by the local security assets. Please note that there was NO effective counter-attack until additional assets had been imported. Also note that shutting down the cell phone network didn’t slow the bad guys down…I suspect they had secondary lines of communication set up thru the internet.”

So much crud here, I won’t even try pulling it apart. Suffice to say that barring the obvious nonprofessional approach by some of the Indian military, there is no security force assembled on this planet that could have done it any other way. We have seen military attempts from many of the Major World Powers in releasing hostages and none of them have gone smoothly or as planned. Every similar, future attack on targets like this brings with it a new set of rules and a completely new and different counter-terrorist plan. If you think that the “bad guys” have learned anything from this, then you’d best go back to ‘Counterinsurgency Warfare – Vol 1′. Didn’t see, or note any mention made of laptops or any other device used to access the Internet. I think that both the Islamic terrorist group and the Indian Black Cats can now go away and see where they went wrong, what they can do better, what worked well, put pen to paper, disseminate all information, remember salient points, but not to base any further insurgency or countermeasure on this model.

“… next time they might ‘plug-in’ something nastier… a lot nastier.”

I must agree with this point.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:06 am 195. Fletcher Christian:

Re the post before mine: One of the nightmares of any security organisation is competent – really competent – terrorists. There was a mass-market book, for example, that I recently read that had as a central plot the detonation of a large nuke by a terrorist organisation. Ho hum, you say, isn’t that original? Except that this particular one had an extremely large force multiplier built in; the bomb was to be detonated on Cumbre Vieja, thus causing devastation of global (or at least hemispheric) scale from one nuke.

On a slightly smaller scale, there are many tunnels and aqueducts in various major cities where a relatively small charge could cause an awful lot of damage, running probably into billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. There are all sorts of possibilities, and some of them probably haven’t been thought of yet. (Incidentally, the 9/11 atrocity was anticipated in fiction by 7 years, by Tom Clancy – not exactly an inconspicuous figure.)

Perhaps the various security organisations should have an assortment of thriller and SF writers on retainer, to dream up scenarios that they can then defend against? Some of them might even be patriotic enough not to spill the beans.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:21 am 196. Mongoose:

Alexis: Your notion of “political” appointments is close to what I had in mind. I was struggling for words here. I did not mean it is the sense of patronage, but in the sense that they were accountable to elected officials. This is problematic for it implies that at least some of these people are not “career diplomats” as they come and they go. They are a sort of “citizen diplomatic corp”. Just a notion.

I also had considered that “Ivy quota” notion of your but did not put it out there. Knowing the Ivys as I do, I wonder if this would mutate into a sort of inverted Affirmative Action program for elites. There is no end to their mischief. Too funny.

We do have to do something about all of this if we are to survive as a free republic. I am with you one that.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:21 am 197. OldSalt:

Old Salt: I’d also mention that the Bible indicates the first thing sin does to a man or woman is corrupt their reasoning ability.

Does it lay out exactly how this happens, or does it just make a bare assertion which we are supposed to accept, ironically, on bare scriptural authority? – Ruby Red

Ah, but you missed the entire point splendidly, and are now veering off into some theological debate.

Juxtaposed: Just because that quote was from the Bible doesn’t mean it isn’t truth.

It was more a literary analogy, and you can take it as such. The truth of the text is borne out by your very posts, which was my point. Of course, I believe it represents truth for reasons of both fact and faith, which are the only way one can really know most things (i.e. life’s truths are known though historical observation, can rarely be repeated in a test tube, hence faith applied to facts results in knowledge).

I have no desire to populate the pages of this BLOG with theological or rational debates with a wholly insincere person. Rabble rouse all you want, but not on my time or Wretchard’s dime.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:56 am 198. OldSalt:

TW Old Salt: I understand you are of Russian descent, so have been meaning to ask you something. – Dave

That’s a misunderstanding. I have a bit of Czech in my family tree (as well as German and English) but my family’s American military history goes back to the Revolutionary War. My own experience with the Soviet’s and Russia came as a “cold warrior” pre-1989/91, and to quote a great contemporary philosopher, “and that’s all I have to say about that”.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:04 am 199. 3Case:

“‘target whites, preferably Americans and British’.”

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:19 am 200. fear Obama:

Gordon Brown said yesterday that the attack had raised “huge questions” about how the world should address violent extremism.
Speaking in London, the Prime Minister said: “A great multi-faithed democracy has been laid low by terrorists. It raises huge questions about how the world addresses violent extremism.”

If Mexico allowed 10 Islamic extremists to train on their soil, and then be funded by British mosques.
Then allowed these same terrorists to get on a bus and attack an elementary school killing 500 school children in the USA.
I can assure you America would attack Mexico.

India will now attack Kashmir,
Pakistan and India will probably go to war.

I hope they don’t use nuclear weapons on each other,
but whatever it takes to rid the earth of these Islamsick terrorists scum.
It is sad,

but if we don’t kill them,
they will kill us.

I hope Bambi and the Democrats are up to the final solution.

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:12 am 201. thegre8_1:

Go to Debka.com they report India and Pakistan are prearing for war. It’s about time someone took on those towelheads in Pakistan who have made a disaster out of the world’s national security. India is doing our fighting, taking on pirate ships in Somalia, and now preparing for Pakistan.
Olmert was in Washington speaking to Bush last week. I would like to have been a fly on that wall. TIme is running out with Iran, the time to get them was 3-5 years ago, now may be too late.
The US used to have enough troops for two large wars and one smaller war. Now we don’t have enough for two small wars. What would have our whiney, wimpy crooks in Congress thought about either World War, or the Korean or Vietnam wars? There would be large laundry bills for Reed and Pelosi’s underwear.
At the rate we are going, we will need Obama’s civilian security force to go fight other wars. Gates was going to be McCain’s or Obama’s pick for Secretary of Defense. Go to wnd.com World Net Daily, the civilian security force started with Gates. We must as a free people vehemently oppose this in whatever way necessary.
Where is the Patton, Churchill, Mac Arthur, or Eisenhower of today? Petraeus can’t do it all himself.
Obama is going to have more than a facial tic under his right eye in a very short time from the stress. I guess that comprenhisive one page report from his doctor stating Obama was in great health really explained that issue. What else about his health, citizenship, school records, and a million other things don’t we know?
This is turning into a sixth Bush/Clinton term with all of Obama’s appointments. He is a puppet of Bush and Clinton.

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:37 am 202. NahnCee:

Ohhhhh, I like it. Simultaneous attack with Israel going after Iran, India taking out Pakistan (what about Kashmir? do we care?), leaving the United States to do what? Fend off Russia and China?

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:44 am 203. James:

http://www.seablogger.com/?p=12329

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:08 pm 204. Ruby:

Storm-rider: Ruby, You’re ideas on human liberty contradict those of the founding of the United States.

My assertion has nothing to do with what the founders said about liberty, but what God said about it. Which was: If you’re a slave, tough it out. If you’re a subject, obey the king.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:47 pm 205. Storm-Rider:

Ruby,
God didn’t say that, Paul said that; and he got it wrong. Paul’s ideas on human liberty appear to be inconsistent and confusing because he spoke words with the opposite meaning in II Corinthians: “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”

Thomas Jefferson and John Locke were right because, while Paul was a founding father of Christianity, he was not endowed with infallibility in regards to ideas on human government. Human government as the source of human rights is an un-American, totalitarian idea of Empire, Monarchy, Fascism or Marxism.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:21 pm 206. 3Case:

“…but what God said about it. Which was: If you’re a slave, tough it out. If you’re a subject, obey the king.

Euroweeniespeak, if I ever saw it. Hasn’t got it that the monarchic systems died early last century.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:26 pm 207. Tim H.:

If we replace all the Second Estaters in the DoS with Third Estaters we are still vulnerable to the machinations of the Fifth Column element of the Fourth Estate. This “Cracking Eggs” thing can quickly get out of hand.
If the “militants” got a few quarters of unrelentingly bad and mocking press their stock, like the stock of certain targeted politicians, would be considerably lower. This, of course, would never happen. But a guy can dream can’t he?

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:38 pm 208. harry:

So do any of you think the sole surviving terrorist will be tortured into giving up
the details? Would you agree or disagree to torture in this case?

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:03 pm 209. NahnCee:

I think he should be tortured just exactly as much as he and his cohorts tortured their captives, especially the Jewish ones.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:18 pm 210. Paul M Hupf:

Has anyone considered that the assault on Mumbai may also be an exercise designed to test a plan for a more ambitious assault on a new target. All evidence to date indicates not only that the attackers were well armed, knew how to use their weapons, but had specific targets in mind. They were not engaged in a random exercise of violence.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:57 pm 211. ajacksonian:

Those who commit terrorism or piracy are one in the same, having taken up war on private terms to their own ends. It does not matter if it is done for plunder or power, for religion or avarice, taking up war on one’s own without warrant or commission of any Nation is abhorrent to civilization. As Blackstone examined in the Common Law, so it is to this day and not limited to *just* piracy:

“LASTLY, the crime of piracy, or robbery and depredation upon the high seas, is an offense against the universal law of society; a pirate being, according to Sir Edward Coke,10 hostis humani generis [enemy to mankind]. As therefore he has renounced all the benefits of society and government, and has reduced himself afresh to the savage state of nature, by declaring war against all mankind, all mankind must declare war against him: so that every community has a right, by the rule of self-defense, to inflict that punishment upon him, which every individual would in a state of nature have been otherwise entitled to do, any invasion of his person or personal property.”

That is the lineage of the Common Law in the UK, US, India, Australia, Canada and any of the former Crown Colonies. While the Nations that arose from those may seek to go back further to William for their Admiralty power, the basic understanding of that power that each sovereign Nation has is just the same. Private War is something we agree to give up as an asserted right and liberty given to us by Nature. It is a scourge when practiced, a true evil to inflict war without governance, without setting recourse for accountability, to put on no uniform and be answerable to no one. There is no justification for it when practiced outside of any sanction given by sovereign Nations. By taking up such negative liberty those who do so disdain all civilization and return to being in a State of Nature, red of tooth and claw. For that we have the liberty to defend ourselves as individuals – no government may remove that right as it reappears the moment any individual is threatened.

When we lose this understanding of civilization, those who practice such ways reappear to threaten us, all of us. Now we have pirates at sea and rogue terrorist organizations that will not answer to anyone, to any Nation, to any power save their own. It is not the civilized world that has stepped away from them, but they are the ones who have decided to do this and stand against us all as our common enemy. There is no difference between them, no justification that stands to reason, nothing that allows inflicting war without accountability save by those taking up defense against you.

They have chosen to resurrect the Law of Nature against all mankind and wage war on their terms.

Are we so decadent, in such a high state of decay, that we cannot say this and recognize it? If that is the case we will be known as well as the Hittites were and Roman Empire… who succumbed to rogue forces at land and at sea and could fashion no response to save themselves. They are both dead civilizations… are we next?

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:21 pm 212. JJD:

Ultimately, wars are not initiated with a clear-cut & “air-tight” case. See the Iraq War for example. Provocation trumps evidentiary proof of complicity. Mumbai could very well be a tipping point. Denials from Pakistan not-withstanding, there is now a very good argument in India for war with its problematic neighbor. Of course, there are ALWAYS good arguments against war. It is not so clear those arguments will be given the same sanction after this debacle. Someone has to pay for this. That’s just the way it works. I think over the course of the next several years, it is going to suck to be Pakistan. US troops coming in on one side – Indian troops on the other. It may get to the point that the US has to execute a massive invasion to secure the nuclear facilities. Most of this scenarioe is far-fetched, at this point, and yet, the outline of a military alliance between the world’s two largest democracies suddenly is emerging.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:54 pm 213. Más sobre Bombay y sobre el fracaso de la prensa « Sarah Palin en Español:

[...] También en Pajamas Media, Richard Fernández da en el clavo: [...]

Dec 1, 2008 - 5:48 am 214. myth buster:

Furthermore, in a republic, the rulers are subordinate to the law. Thus, if they overstep their lawful powers, they are acting not on God given authority, but on power they have unjustly seized for themselves. Once they have done this, rebelling against them is not a sin. This is why the American Revolution was just- the King acted on powers that the Magna Carta said he does not have.

Dec 1, 2008 - 11:20 am 215. Byth Muster:

“One of the biggest obstacles to dealing with this mutating beast is the Western intelligensia’s perverse inclination to assign altruistic or holy motives to what are purely criminal or political aims.”

Motive + Method (plan) + Opportunity + Target/victims = terror action.

In a free society, seems like it takes less resource to intercede on Motive, as it is a “War of Ideas.”

Dec 1, 2008 - 1:30 pm 216. Steynian 292 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] SYMPHONY OF BLOOD– “Amir Taheri, who describes radical Islam as a beast with an extraordinary ability to [...]

Dec 1, 2008 - 2:28 pm 217. Storm-Rider:

“One of the biggest obstacles to dealing with this mutating beast is the Western intelligensia’s perverse inclination to…”

Intellegence and wisdom are two different things; something George Orwell understood perfectly.

“There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them.” George Orwell

Dec 1, 2008 - 5:53 pm 218. Storm-Rider:

Ruby: “Respectfully I must disagree that liberty is a God-given right, because Paul said in Colossians 3:22 (NASB) “Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth…”

Also, Ruby, you may not have considered the fundamental truth of the Christian faith that Jesus came not for political revolution but for spiritual revolution – not to repair the prevailing unjust relationship between human government and the governed, but between God and man. Paul’s admonition for the slave to obey an unjust form of human government can be understood in this light.

It fell to our founding fathers to address the issue of political justice, i.e.: just government power deriving from the consent of the governed, and whose purpose is to secure our sacred, essential God-given human rights to life, liberty and (creative) pursuit of happiness.

Dec 1, 2008 - 6:02 pm

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