178 Comments

1. F:

I guess the sincerest form of flattery is for terrorists to adopt our small unit tactics. Too bad they didn’t pick up any of the professionalism and discipline that goes with our tactics. But then that would keep them from doing exactly what they did. Next question: how do we defend against terrorists who adopt our tactics? F

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:06 pm 2. whiskey:

Drain the seas.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:15 pm 3. ledger:

If this Marine is correct then there were some military trainers involved with this terror operation. That is called State Sponsored Terrorism.

One would assume the most likely suspect would be the Pakistanis. One could test this idea by disseminating a rumor that a terrorists or terror enabler was caught and was naming Pakistani military officials. The idea would be to make true suspects nervous to the point of revealing themselves.

Then you would monitor the movements and communications of said officials to see any usual activity. If there is usual activity then you can be fairly sure the Pakistani military was involved.

Next take necessary actions to insure that this type of state sponsored terrorism is stopped cold.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:29 pm 4. NahnCee:

If they’re shooting from the hip in a spray pattern that negates my theory that they were using guns (rather than bombs) for more precision killing and to avoid shooting Muslims.

Agree with the Marine’s message, however, that the terrorists are using tactics they’ve observed from American troops. Monkey see, monkey do.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:31 pm 5. Leon:

In Brazil a couple of years ago the criminal gang PCC used a similar method to terrorize São Paulo:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/1518341/Brazilian-gang-kills-30-in-wave-of-attacks-on-police.html

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:34 pm 6. NahnCee:

Don’t we think that American soldiers in AFghanistan also use this pairing technique, as well as in Iraq? Wouldn’t it be possible for Pakistani’s to observe it and bring it back home to teach to their maddrassah graduates, in addition to Al-Queda refugees from Iraq spreading the word as they run away run away?

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:34 pm 7. Starling:

Wretchard, thanks for posting these comments. I found them very informative. As a management theorist with a specific interest in organization structure and design, the discussion about the merits of decentralization and team/group composition certainly resonates.

One of several comments that caught my eye was this one: “The Fire Team is now the smallest doctrinal unit of maneuver in the US military. In the Marine Corps, it is led by a Corporal, includes an automatic rifleman with a Squad Automatic Weapon, and two more riflemen.”

Knowing nothing whatsoever about military maneuvers and tactics, I had assumed that a sniper team was the smallest “doctrinal unit”, i.e. a spotter and a shooter.

Again, thanks for passing along the observations.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:36 pm 8. wretchard:

The Marine infantry officer adds in a subsequent e-mail:

There’s another big tie in here with deception: you did a post not long ago about the need for the military to wear uniforms, etc. (you’ve done more in the past I know). Here, we have terrorists with no uniforms, and still of unknown and unconfirmed origin, asking for the damned passports of innocent people. And yet our military must wear uniforms or else void international law. Something isn’t right here.

One advantage that terrorist buddy pairs have is that they can confidently fire on anyone. The odds they will engage another terrorist buddy pair are almost nil. And if they kill man, woman or beast it simply adds to their tally. One problem facing a response team is that they have to have postive ID on the enemy. A blue on blue or accidental killing of a civilian is a definite, it not a probable contingency.

My own guess, and I am not an infantryman, is that defensive tactics should aim to nullify the maneuverability and relative invisibility of terrorist buddy pairs. If they are immobilized, or at least localized, then the buddy pairs can easily be overmatched. Their advantages are also their disadvantages. They have limited stocks of ammo and a relatively low rate of fire.

A terrorist buddy pair’s greatest killing potential is either in the first few minutes and when they have gained a position (such as in the Taj Hotel) in which the urban terrain favors them. At all points in between they will be dead meat for a professional police or military force in platoon or greater strength. Of the two windows of opportunity, the most deadly is the first few minutes. Imagine a school, a shopping mall or a stadium. In the first twenty minutes, a number of buddy teams assaulting inward from the entrances could trap most people in it. By the time a response team got there, they would have segued to defense.

But if they can be contained, then at least they can’t move on to the next hotel, the next building, the next mass killing ground.

There are only two long term defenses I can imagine, as a layman. The first is subsidiarity. The second is intelligence. Subsidiarity will mean the existence of enough armament at the grassroots level to create uncertainty for the terrorist buddy pairs. This is the concept upon which the air marshal idea relies. The possibility you may encounter an armed man in the first minutes when you are supposed to enjoy surprise could ruin everything. Instead of losing one terrorist per hundred casualties, the terrorist might be killed after only shooting two or three. Intelligence is the other defense. The Mumbai attackers had support cells. They had to train somewhere, be transported somehow, set up their resupply points in some fashion. All of these activities have signatures.

Ultimately, our relative safety depends on knowledge. What purpose, I was asked at recent party, did US troops serve in Afghanistan? I said intelligence. Their chief utility was that they could pick up something. The rumor of war. If you broke contact with the enemy you gained a certain degree of safety but only at the risk of losing information. Now there are many ways to gain intelligence, not all of them having to do with putting infantry in far away places. But the principle is the same. We must always know what the bad guys are up to and that means getting close to them in some way.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:36 pm 9. Mad Fiddler:

As atrocious as the terrorists are, the greatest tragedy in my estimate is that the entire class of alleged journalists are conspicuously incompetent at providing information of any detectible utility.

This incompetence is most acute recently in their persistent refusal to state the obvious Islamic identity of so many terrorists. They are instead deemed to be “south asian” or “disgruntled youths” or “angry dissidents” but almost NEVER as Islamic Jihadists.

Of course terrorists have arisen from other cultures. But it takes a breathtaking obstinacy to deny the ubiquitously Islamic agression that has been going forward against all their neighbors and even their co-religionists around the world in the last decades.

When news organizations consistently withhold information critical to making sense of the patterns of events, you have to conclude that those organizations are themselves part of the problem.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:41 pm 10. DanM:

Now if we could only keep the secret of our “buddy pair” counter-tactics… Nah, too simple..

Maybe dis-information? Maybe, give them the real tactic and use “plan b-z” when engaged?

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:42 pm 11. Paul from Florida:

I’m really interested in the mental aspects of these guys. It takes some good training, or something else, for these teams, to show up, and maneuver to their destinations. We are talking SF type mental attitude. Not to credit these murders, but they did their evil, real remarkably.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:49 pm 12. Josh:

The tale of armed Indian police on the scene who took no action, is very damning. Why try to analyze what else to do, when that fails? Ten years ago when LAPD had to contain two crazed bank robbers with automatic weapons and body armor, they got the job done – and are better prepared now than then.

I’d say the Indian special forces did a creditable job, once they got down to it. Faster response is about the most crucial change. I’ll ask again, if those non-shooting police, at least called in the alert.

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:52 pm 13. Cannoneer No. 4:

Could Militia Pistoleros Defeat Jihadi Spetnaz?

Nov 29, 2008 - 7:58 pm 14. whiskey:

Well, Wretchard, enough carnage from the buddy pairs and most societies will sooner or later become a place where there are no Muslims.

People will do anything to survive. Anything.

Suppose India was suddenly absent of all Muslims (they were rounded up and deported into Pakistan).

NOW the ability to position arms, money, passports, clothing, water, ammunition, etc. becomes nearly impossible. Every person looks for a Muslim, and every hand and eye is against them. Instead of a safe haven the territory they must enter is incredibly hostile. They must pass “tests” of booze, pork, etc. as part of a lifestyle adopted by Non-Muslim societies.

Societies free of Muslims and very hostile to any entering Muslims (who would be arrested summarily if found out) make this sort of attack so much harder. At best you get the North Hollywood shoot-out instead of Bombay.

That is certainly one way to shape the information battlefield, deny the enemy the ability to move without drawing attention. It’s going to come to that because it’s both obvious (drain the sea) and effective and the escalation of violence available to the enemy with modern technology and weapons means the death tolls will just continue to rise until the people demand changes and effectiveness.

As for the other part of defense, I imagine most societies will have to move to arming a good portion of their populace. Perhaps with carbines, perhaps not. Making the target much more resistant to that sort of attack — with the attendant sacrifices an armed society requires (politeness, less status-mongering, restraint, etc.)

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:00 pm 15. whiskey:

As for response teams, the new camouflage material that offers near-chameleon like abilities to blend in with the background is likely to be pushed forward even more.

But the response teams are merely the last line, not the first line of defense.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:02 pm 16. DanM:

HT – Drudge:

Plan was to kill 5,000.

….highly trained in marine assault and crept into the city by boat….

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:03 pm 17. Starling:

Excerpts from a short, but telling, article in the Times of India on why it took Indian commandos over 9 hours to respond:

Why did NSG take 9 hrs to get there?

The terrorists strike Mumbai at 9.30pm. Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh is in Kerala. He is briefed about the attack on the city’s prime locations. By the time Deshmukh grasps the enormity of the situation, 90 minutes have gone by.

He rings Union home minister Shivraj Patil at 11pm and asks for NSG commandos. “How many men?” Patil asks. “200,” says the CM. Patil calls NSG chief J K Dutt and tells him to send 200 battle-ready commandos to Mumbai.

Most of the NSG men have to be roused from sleep. They don their uniforms, strap on safety gear, collect ammo and firearms. It is discovered that the only plane that can take 200 men, the IL 76, is not in Delhi but Chandigarh. Precious minutes are ticking by.

The IL 76 pilot is woken, the plane refuelled. It reaches Delhi at 2am. By the time the commandos get in and the plane takes off, four-and-a-half hours have elapsed. Experts say that unless a response is mounted within 30 minutes of an attack, the enemy can assume key defensive positions.

It takes the aircraft almost three hours to land at Mumbai airport. Unlike the Boeing and Airbus, IL 76 is a slow plane. By the time the NSG commandos board the waiting buses it is 5.25am.

The buses take another 40 minutes to reach the designated place in south Mumbai where the commandos are briefed, divided into different groups and sent out on their mission.

By the time they start their operation, it is 7am — in other words, nine-and-a-half hours after the terror strike.

Many lives might have been saved had this delay not happened. The obvious question is why is the NSG stationed only in Delhi. When Indian cities are vulnerable to terror attacks, why is there no commando force like the NSG, or its units, in every city?

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:06 pm 18. cjm:

identify the dead terrrists, find their families, execute the families, post videos.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:06 pm 19. wretchard:

Why did NSG take 9 hrs to get there?

This is why subsidiarity is important. In a country as vast as India — or the United States or Australia — it can take hours to fly a terrorist response team to a given location. That concedes the first deadly minutes to the enemy. They have to be shut down and contained within an hour. We know how to contain many types of dangers, fire for example. Buckets of sand, CO2 extinguishers, etc, building evacuation plans, etc are there to provide a subsidiary response until the fire company gets there.

Unfortunately it has become the tendency to centralize responses to violence ever more. Hardly a week passes without a story about some hapless Briton being hailed before the judge because he conked some house-breaker on the head. You’re supposed to wait and not provoke the house-breaker until the proper policemen came. While this allowed the politicians to gather the powers of life and death into their hands and prevent “abuse” this also lengthened the response times. Today we shudder at ROTC training on campus. We take, as an indice of civilization, the proliferation of “gun free zones”. Those zones are “come and get it” dinner bells for Mumbai-style terrorists.

There was at one time, the idea of a “well-regulated militia” to span the distance between vigilanteeism and waiting for help which might take too long to come. If the Indians had a number of local counter-terror teams it could help them response more quickly next time.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:19 pm 20. F:

The idea of personal self-defense still exists in the US: many of my friends have concealed carry permits, and I applied for one myself a month ago (it takes around 3 months to be issued in Nevada). Of course the next question is, would I draw and use a weapon, especially after the emphasis placed by my instructor on all the legal and personal safety reasons NOT to use my firearm.

That said, I barely avoided being in the Japanese embassy in Lima when it was stormed by Shining Path guerrillas in 1997. Several of my colleagues were there, though, and recalled seeing many of the guests in attendance (mostly diplomats or aid personnel) ditching their personal weapons in the bushes rather than using them against the handful of terrorists who had scaled the back wall. If only 3-4 of the armed guests had successfully taken down a terrorist in the first moments it would probably have stopped the attack immediately. Perhaps with a little loss of innocent life, but as it is the embassy was held for several months and finally stormed by Peruvian armed forces (who managed to kill all the terrorists without loss of innocent life.)

As for why the Indian policemen didn’t shoot back, I was stationed in India in 1965-67, and in those days (and presumably today) policemen were not routinely issued ammunition. F

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:50 pm 21. Paul S.:

John Lott’s “More Guns, Less Crime” is relevant.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:52 pm 22. Eggplant:

cjm said:

“identify the dead terrrists, find their families, execute the families, post videos.”

Then the families also become holy martyrs for Jihad and surviving family members are motivated by vendetta (try to get into the Middle Eastern mindset).

A better tactic is to capture as many of the terrorists as safely possible, extract all useful information and arrange for them to confess their sins on al Jazeera (do a “Winston Smith” on them). Then quietly dispose of them after they’ve lost their utility (sending terrorists to rot at Gitmo is a mistake because eventually moonbats get to feel self-rightous releasing the misunderstood freedom-fighters through a blanket amnesty).

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:56 pm 23. jaymaster:

Not to minimize the heinous nature of this attack, but the only thing that surprises me about this “buddy system” tactic is that people seem to think it’s something new. It goes back to at least WWI.

It was popular with terrorists in the 1970’s, and I even practiced it as part of a local “shooting club” back in the 90’s. It is the preferred way to advance against a non-organized opposition.

It’s just suppress and advance distilled to its absolute minimum. A couple hours on a paintball field and most anyone of average intelligence can figure out how it works.

That being said, it DOES take some folks of above average intelligence and knowledge to plan such an attack, and to figure out how to get the attackers into position at the right time, undetected.

Nov 29, 2008 - 8:59 pm 24. Cannoneer No. 4:

If only 3-4 of the armed guests had successfully taken down a terrorist in the first moments it would probably have stopped the attack immediately.

But did any of the armed guests know that other guests were armed, and might back their play?

If ten terrorists pulled AK-47’s out of rucksacks and started blasted away in Penn Station, how many bystanders might be armed? Of those, how many would be willing to be the first one to draw his pistol?

Psychologically, each armed citizen thinks he is the only armed citizen in the crowd. He could have 50 other potential comrades in arms in the crowd, all unknown to each other until somebody with big brass ones unlimbers his artillery. Fifty pistoleros could conceivably defeat ten Kalashinikov gunners, but I don’t recall ever hearing of such an outcome.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:02 pm 25. fred:

I have some nagging doubts in my mind about the alleged military-like way of operating these jihadis exhibited. They had to know that they would be operating in an environment where it was extremely unlikely that any of their targets would be carrying weapons. They had to know that the Indian police would be confused and ineffective during the initial stages of the assault, which is when most of the casualties were inflicted. Why would they need to employ a buddy system of fire and maneuver? Fire and maneuver presumes an environment where hostile fire is to be expected to stand between one and one’s objective. They had the element of surprise as well as being able to grossly outclass their targets in terms of firepower.

Reading the lead-in article only causes me to have more questions about the jihadis, not fewer. Still, they show some exposure to military training. Plus, it would appear that they were were well armed and logistically supported. If this was six months in planning, then the greatest worry the Indian government has is the presence of logistical support cells within the target society. And all of us here know that support cells are THE hardest of the Islamic nuts to crack. The enemy designs it that way. Combatants are cannon fodder. Expendable. But the logistical support cells are critical and must be protected at all costs. It is that end of the operation that gives the enemy the ability to project terror well beyond the deaths of the gunmen.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:08 pm 26. Cannoneer No. 4:

Buddy System

Pair every youth with another in the same ability group. Buddies check in and out of the swimming area together. Emphasize that each buddy lifeguards his buddy. Check everyone in the water about every 10 minutes, or as needed to keep the buddies together. The adult in charge signals for a buddy check with a single blast of a whistle or ring of a bell, and call “Buddies!” The adult counts slowly to 10 while buddies join and raise hands and remain still and silent. Guards check all areas, count the pairs, and compare the total with the number known to be in the water. Signal two blasts or bells to resume swimming. Signal three blasts or bells for checkout. — Boy Scouts of America Safe Swim Defense, in use since before 1968.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:11 pm 27. James:

Buddy pairs may be maneuverable but what happens if you have armed opposition? If one of the pair is hit the other is left with very few choices and none of them are good. A two man team may work well when things are going well for you, but in the worst case scenario situation, you’re both dead.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:11 pm 28. Kinuachdrach:

Also worth thinking about what the Mumbai terrorists did not do — no “secondary explosions” targeting the Indian response; no attacks from the outside of the perimeter on the backs of the Indian squads around the hotels.

The absence of such obvious tactics may suggest that the attackers really did put all their resources into a single roll of the dice. Maybe they simply lacked the resources to plan on attacking the inevitable Indian responders?

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:13 pm 29. Brock:

defensive tactics should aim to nullify the … relative invisibility

Paint grenades? Maybe if for some reason you can’t shoot the buddy pair you can at least paint them bright pink? Having zero military experience I’m not sure how dumb that is.

subsidiarity

As you mention elsewhere, we need subsidiarity of fighting spirit before the weapons will do us any good. Indian special forces engaged the enemy, but the PD apparently couldn’t bring themselves to.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:18 pm 30. JD:

#8 wretchard:

“The possibility you may encounter an armed man in the first minutes when you are supposed to enjoy surprise could ruin everything.”

I’ve had a CCW for quite a long time but did not in the past carry most days. It was only after 9/11 and other terrorist acts that I asked myself…”What if I could stop a terrorist from inflicting casualties and didn’t have my weapon with me?”….

As a former Marine and Vietnam veteran, I have no qualms about shooting bad guys. Nor would I hesitate to put the red dot on any such target.

Myself and others who carry on a regular basis may be the deciding factor on the final body count. Hopefully more of them than us.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:19 pm 31. ledger:

[Money to fund terror attack from UK?]

“…banned Islamic terrorist group funded with cash raised in British mosques is believed to be behind the Mumbai attacks. And intercepted telephone and radio communications before and during the latest attacks apparently suggest a link.

Indian officials say at least one of the gunmen captured after the attacks is part of a Lashkar network… earlier this year another group, the Indian Mujahideen, which has links to Lashkar-e-Taiba, sent an email to Indian police warning it was planning an attack in Mumbai.

The message read: ‘We are keeping a close eye on you and just waiting for the right time to execute your bloodshed…Let the Indian Mujahideen warn all the people of Mumbai…You are already on our hit list and this time very, very seriously.’ It is accused of being behind a series of train bombings in Mumbai in 2006, which claimed almost 200 lives…”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1090565/Mumbai-terrorists-funded-cash-raised-UK-mosques.html

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:22 pm 32. ledger:

[Counter Terrorism blogs thinks Dawood Ibrahim financed the Attacks]

“…the attack was well planned and organized, and that requires reliance on a sophisticated network for recruitment, logistics, training and financing. Some Indian terrorist experts suggest that Dawood Ibrahim may well be linked to organizing and financing this attack just as he did for the 1993 Mumbai stock exchange terrorist bombings… According to the Treasury Department “Dawood Ibrahim, an Indian crime lord, has found common cause with Al Qaida, sharing his smuggling routes with the terror syndicate and funding attacks by Islamic extremists aimed at destabilizing the Indian government. He is wanted in India for the 1993 Bombay Exchange bombings and is known to have financed the activities of Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (Army of the Righteous), a group designated by the United States in October 2001 and banned by the Pakistani Government…” See also Treasury Fact Sheet on Dawood Ibrahim…”

See: Dawood Ibrahim
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/11/dawood_ibrahims_name_again_sur.php

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:27 pm 33. wretchard:

This excerpt from the Telegraph details information taken from the sole surviving terrorist. The attack team was gathered in “a remote mountain camp in Muzaffarabad, in Pakistan- administered Kashmir … During the months of training they were taught the use of explosives and close quarter combat. It was ingrained upon every man that ammunition would be in short supply and therefore every bullet should count.” They were then taken to Rawalpindi, the military heart of Pakistan, where they met with another team of six trained in another camp. They referred to each other by assumed names, which SOP for clandestine ops. At Rawalpindi they received an intel briefing and sandtabled, as it were, their attack. They launched from Karachi and were nearly turned by the Indian navy.

Here the team improvised. They hijacked a fishing boat, the Kuber and killed the crew. Using the fishing boat they made their way past the Indian coastguards. All in all, they were challenged more frequently than the 9/11 attackers but their initiative and training won them through. In close combat inside the hotels with the premier Indian counterterror force, they proved formidable.

Major General RK Hooda, the senior Indian commander, acknowledged the group, the Deccan Mujadeen, were better equipped and had a better knowledge of the battleground than India’s soldiers.

After the battle, one member of India’s National Security Guard, who led one of the assault groups against the terrorists occupying the Taj Mahal hotel, said they were the “best fighters” he had ever encountered.

He said: “They were obviously trained by professionals in urban guerrilla fighting. They used their environment and situation brilliantly, leading us (the NSG) on a dangerous chase through various tiers of the hotel which they obviously knew well. Their fire discipline too was excellent and they used their ammunition judiciously, mostly to draw us out.

“It was amply clear they came to kill a large number of people and to eventually perish in their horrific endeavour,” he said. “Negotiating with the Indian authorities or escaping was not an option for them.”

While the attack team only consisted of ten men, there are many other implied components. The men who recruited and trained them. The men who recruited and trained the Team B. The intel briefers. The providers of the Zodiac boats. The men who coordinated the whole shebang. So it was, despite appearances, an expensive operation, though considering the damage it inflicted, very cost effective.

The best time to intercept this type of operation is to detect it in its training stage. Once the attack team had landed, then luck, tactical skill, the availability of local response and numerous other circumstantial factors would determine its outcome.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:28 pm 34. raff:

Buddy Pairs. Taught to me in battle school in canada in the early 80’s. Use of buddy pairs demonstrated quite nicely in the film HEAT.

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:33 pm 35. F:

Cannoneer #4 (#24): Actually, in the Lima dip corps of the nineties, probably more of us carried than not. Urban terrorism was winding down, but was not completely gone and car bombs still rocked the city now and then. As for “backing their play,” that’s a bigger “if”. When you’re standing at a long table of hors d’oeuvres with a drink in one hand and a sandwich in the other, chatting with a colleague, the thought of drawing and shooting, especially when a handful (and it was only a handful) of bad guys are shooting AK-47s into the air, is probably pretty alien. But if one of my fellow dips had made the first play he probably would have found himself in good company. Now whether there were any sober shooters in the party, well that’s another issue.

In the 27 years I was in that line of work I carried only about 5 years (but I did carry in Lima). Only once was I threatened in a way that could possibly have lead to me using my heat. I didn’t, and a very drunk French cooperant walked away alive as I shook my head in slow amazement at how stupid he had been and how I close I had come to completely (and tragically) misinterpreting his actions. The lesson I took away from that will probably slow my draw if the situation ever presents itself again. As Jeff Cooper used to teach, you need to know you’re prepared to use your firearm before you strap it on the first time. F

Nov 29, 2008 - 9:47 pm 36. exhelodrvr:

“It was ingrained upon every man that ammunition would be in short supply and therefore every bullet should count.” ”

That doesn’t go with shooting from the hip.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:04 pm 37. The Anti Jihadist:

Another commenter remarked on the North Hollywood shootout ten years ago. It’s not a coincidence that the two perps–a buddy pair–in that incident were not taken down until they split up. Perhaps they should have watched ‘Heat’ a few more times (in that movie’s big set-piece shootout, the buddy pair escape whilst the lone ‘gunman’ goes down).

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:49 pm 38. Wadeusaf:

What sole surviving terrorist?
I for one, am not convinced that this is the testimony of the unmartyred one. It smacks too much of earlier speculation by journalists and not at all like the probable preprepared screed to be expected from pre-ordained bullet catchers.

That is unless his drugs wore off wa-a-a-a-y too early.

As for the non issuance of ammo-I certainly hope that the fellow who decided on that course of action has had plenty of time to die peacefully in his bed. Were he alive that would haunt him as much or more than the vision those policemen will revisit nightly, unable to do anything unable to even think of anything to do. It is not a position I envy anyone.

Nov 29, 2008 - 10:51 pm 39. what is occupation:

collect the bodies of the terrorists, stitch them into pig skins with the entrails, dump them into the river to be eaten by crocs

tape it, and put on the web…

make it policy…

any islamic terrorist that is captured while committing terror shall be killed and fed to the croc/sharks….

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:30 pm 40. wretchard:

An email comment from the contributor of this post says, “I’m sure the concept [of the buddy pair] has been around a long time. But it is only in the past few years that it is being consciously spread throughout standard regular infantry units. Just a clarification, don’t know if it’s worth noting.”

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:34 pm 41. Chiral:

I recall reading that the North Vietnamese believed 3-person teams were best at fighting. More than two, less than four. Three.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:36 pm 42. Tim:

” If I may presume: the terrorists have learned fire and movement from us, from watching us, and from reading our manuals, which are posted online. But our tactics are not geared toward indiscriminate slaughter.”

While the analysis is good, overall, I question this. People use “indiscriminate slaughter” a lot, but the term is meaningless. They’re not “indiscriminate” at all – they’re trying to kill *people*. The fact that it happens to be any and all people is irrelevant – a more meaningful comparison would be “indiscriminate destruction” – and they’re clearly not much interested in shooting vending machines and light fixtures as opposed to people.

Our troops have tactics which are designed with the goal of (1) destroying the enemy and/or reaching/seizing the objective (in other words, completing the mission) and (2) staying alive, in that order. The terrorists’ task is no different, they simply have more and poorer armed/trained targets.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:38 pm 43. NahnCee:

I’m confused about mathematics. If you have two shooters moving forward in a three-dimensional space with a whole bunch of other people all around them, doesn’t it ever occur that those other people can do a mass pile-on and take both shooters out?

That doesn’t seem to have happened here, either in the train station or the hotels, but I am positive I’ve heard of people doing that here in America upon occasion. Like when there’s a beserk teenager shooting up a school, I’m seeming to remember a couple of times when teachers and jocks just jump him and sit on him.

Hell, that’s essentially what the passengers of Flight 93 did.

It might be a good idea if the various authorities and governments around the world put the word out for people to take more responsibility for their own safety rather than waiting 9 hours for the cavalry to arrive from New Delhi.

Nov 29, 2008 - 11:58 pm 44. Kirk Parker:

“Use of buddy pairs demonstrated quite nicely in the film HEAT”

Maybe so, but–annoyingly–it’s also Yet Another Instance of being able to expend at least 100x as much ammo as you can actually carry.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:17 am 45. ledger:

The sheer amount of ammunition, hand grenades, car bombs and incendiary bombs is of grave concern. It also smacks of state sponsored terrorism. I believe it would be unwise to forgo punitive raids on those who trained and facilitated this slaughter of innocent men, women and children.

The Indian authorities are going to have to find the training facilities and trainers and destroy them. This could include covert “action teams” akin to the ones that were authorized by Prime Minister Golda Meir to find and assassinate those individuals responsible Munich attacks.

[Fox news]

‘The scene Saturday night inside the Taj Majal hotel was one of unimaginable carnage in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist onslaught across Mumbai.Two Indian commandos told FOX News that 150 bodies still were inside the hotel, and dead victims were found all over the hotel, on all five floors. The terrorists used incendiary bombs, or grenades thrown on gas or fuel canisters, indicating they had access to the Taj hotel in advance, though the Taj Majal hotel denies any staffers were involved.’

‘The commandos also said they were surprised at how much ammunition the terrorists had. There still was a lot left, even after the attack. “Terrorists are far more advanced today. We didn’t realize that they had satellite phones for communication or that they would be so advanced and use incendiary bombs,” one commando said. The siege was particularly troubling because “they didn’t spare women or children.”’

See: Bodies on all five floors
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459245,00.html

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:20 am 46. Morenuancedthanyou:

Nahncee,
“doesn’t it ever occur that those other people can do a mass pile-on and take both shooters out? … I am positive I’ve heard of people doing that here in America upon occasion”
—
Aside from Flight 93, you may be remembering the end of Kip Kinkle’s spree at Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon:
“When his rifle ran out of ammunition and Kinkel began to reload, wounded student Jacob Ryker—recognizing from his own experience with guns that Kinkel was out of ammunition (and understood[sic] that this was the best chance to stop Kinkel)—tackled him”

Anyone who takes the above as evidence I support early training in firearms handling is, well, right on the money.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:04 am 47. E. Nigma:

If I were to predict the actions of the incoming Obama administration to this in terms of domestic action, I think the following will be tried:
1) increasing restrictions on gun ownerships, especially “assualt weapons”, such as some “look alike” semi-autos, etc.
2) Try to get Federal law to overrule state concealed carry permits.

This would seem to fly in the face of common sense in the nature of a “well-regulated militia”, i.e., an armed citizenry, but as whiskey has so often explained regarding those who wield power (”feminists” and feminized men), they are more afraid of the appearance of these and other weapons in the public domain wielded legally by American citizens (men mostly) than the possible deterent aspect of the presence of an armed and trained citizenry. I can already hear someone like Barbara Boxer intoning her own special brand of logic on this matter.

If one team was trained, I wonder how many other teams are ‘ready to go’? Perhaps there has been a subtle diplomatic communication from a sector of the Paki government (ISI sympathizers in the foreign ministry?) that has tied new demands on India/US to the possibility of a few more of these teams set loose.

Blackmail?
Mutually assured terrorism?

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:14 am 48. whiskey:

E. Nigma — that is quite true. I am sure Obama and Company will use this to try and ban guns. At any rate the feminists and feminized men share a common enemy with the Jihadis. Us. We are Obama’s enemy too.

I don’t think it’s possible to get intel on the terrorist teams. That would require people in place which is not possible in a tribal, Muslim society.

The converse is that if you remove ALL Muslims from non-Muslim society THEY cannot have logistics teams either. Stalemate. I’m sure it will come to that. Simple logic demands it.

What Wretchard wants — intel on the terror teams training and preparing, is not humanly possible. Ever. Removing ALL Muslims from non-Muslim societies IS quite possible. So it will happen, one way or another, eventually. I don’t like it. Not one bit. But I can see it coming, eventually. Everywhere Muslims are not the majority.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:11 am 49. Shaan:

Starling & Wretchard,
It did not take 9 hours for the commandos to move in. The Indian navy’s commandos called ‘Marcos’ who are stationed in the Mumbai naval base were the first commandos to engage the terrorists even before the NSG. They started to move in and engage the terrorists at 2.30 am, 5 hours after the terrorists had started their killing spree. http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=639683

The encounter started in the following order: first the Mumbai police’s Anti Terrorism Squad entered the hotels and sustained heavy casualties – 14 of its men. Meanwhile ATS chief and his men who arrive at the Cama hospital are ambushed by the terrorists, the ATS chief is killed. At around the same time Mumbai police’s ‘encounter specialist’ Mr.Vijay Salaskar guns down 2 terrorists before he is killed by the terrorists. Then the state Chief Secretary asks help from navy on realizing the gravity of the situation.

On the buddy pair tactics: Most probably the terrorists had received training from army elements in Pakistan, who may have observed the Iraq conflict. Or even the Pakistani army may have received training on this from the US army as part of counter-terrorism training. Counter-terrorism training being used for terrorism – an irony but a definite probability.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:43 am 50. 2164th:

There appear to be 300 dead in Mumbai, killed by five two-man killing teams using mostly hand weapons. Government could not protect them before hand, while it happened, and will not be able to protect others, or you, next week or next year.

Like the police, governments can investigate after the fact, but rarely intercede and protect unless there is a controlled environment such as an airport. An airplane suicide attack such as 911 is unlikely. Another Mumbai is practically guaranteed.

In the Telegraph article, they describe the training and motivation of the killers. It was formidable.

From my experience in Central America, I can assure you that private security guards are practically useless. They are poorly paid, predictable in their placement and habits, obvious to identify and easy to intimidate or in this case kill. Most will simply flee at the first sign of a serious challenge. That is our natural instinct, flee and stay alive. Your reaction and that of most others would be the same. However, there is an important difference.

If a person trained with a private weapon cannot flee, is armed and finds themselves trapped on a restaurant floor such as in Mumbai, they become highly motivated to survive. Five or six others randomly seated and scattered through other parts of a hotel radically changes the math.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:50 am 51. Tim san:

I am pretty certain that the whole “buddy pair” concept came from close quarter battle (CQB) training. Every CQB trained team member knows when they come to an open door or hallway the point hesitates until he gets a “bump” from behind ensuring he has a wing man for the dynamic entry. Conversely going in alone was considered nothing short of a mortal sin. Back in 96 – 98 time frame only Force Recon (Marine Corps) and the SF community trained in CQB – you had to have a clearance to attend the assault breacher course and the whole bag of techniques and procedures was considered classified. Today Close Quarters Battle drill is standard infantry training and also most likely the source of buddy pairs – although in CQB it is not always the same buddy backing you up when you run a house.

I would like to think that armed Americans would be able to disrupt a similar attack if it were perpetrated in a Red State with shall issue CCW laws. Last year and off duty police officer went up against a lone rifle wielding assailant in the Trolley Mall of Salt Lake City with a favorable outcome. Of course that was a single assailant – fighting in buddy pairs makes that a lot harder to do. But in similar circumstances I would not hesitate to do the same even against 2 or more armed assailants – at the distances these shooting are averaging a good pistol fighter is not significantly at a disadvantage against marginal riflemen because the riflemen tend to spray on full auto which from the hip is not well aimed fire and off the shoulder is defacto anti aircraft fire after the 3rd round. Nobody wants to find himself armed with only a pistol at a proper gunfight but it is better than nothing and with a little luck and some solid training I would think the average CCW holder could stall an attack like this very early as it unfolds. Those who do not rush to the sound of gun fire and hold up with others would be very problematic for terrorist gunmen to run down too. Trapped people, like trapped animals, tend to fight (well some do many just accept their fate) and if you have mothers with children included they can fight very well – especially if they have a pistol and a clue how to use it. Terrorist expected to walk into hotel rooms facing unarmed people who can do very little to stop their attackers. In the United States that scenario would be true only if the terrorists picked a city where the population has been disarmed – Washington DC, Baltimore, Chicago, San Francisco….those types of places with entrenched Democratic machines who, provided cover by a clueless and compliant media, never have to answer for the carnage in their streets when compared Red State cities like Salt Lake.

It is a matter of time before we see a similar attack in America. The group who planned this operation can obviously plan well – like so many Muslim extremist groups their execution was piss poor. Ten guys, total surprise, three days of active shooting, unlimited ammo, and cops who go to ground or run at the sound of gunfire and the total tally is maybe 300 KIA? That is a bad execution of what appears to be a solid plan. But still an attack or two or even more like that launched simultaneously across the country would bring huge amounts of stress to our complacent population and our fragile economy – even with piss poor execution. But one thing all if us can count on is that the planners know where armed Americans are and where they are not. If you live in a Blue State with restrictive CCW laws you are at a much greater risk from this sort of event than I am.

These kinds of attacks are coming and in the aftermath of the first wave it will be very interesting to see what our elected betters choose to do about it. There are a lot of options to include encouraging CCW holders to carry instead of discouraging this healthy habit. I doubt Cannoneer #4, myself or any of the other regular commenter’s here will be lucky enough to see a “buddy Team” of young terrorists pop up in front of us at the local mall or hotel (I carry a full size Kimber .45 when in CONUS just in case I do get lucky) but I promise you if we did those boys would not escape our tender mercies without a few leaky holes in their torso. Sheepdogs aren’t sheepdogs because they enjoy the title – they are sheepdogs because they cannot be anything else. Our country still produces far more than our share because unlike most people around the world we remain free men. Free to own firearms if we want, free to say or publish what we want, and most importantly free to protect ourselves, our families, and any stranger in need – with lethal force. I work with former military men from around the globe and the Brits, Aussies, Kiwi’s, Canadians, all of them know that they no longer come from lands where men can be called free. All of them have a single goal it seems and that is to live in America (I already told them that Ted Kennedy has ruined their chances because they are not poor, illiterate or from the third world) because there a man is still free. And free men don’t let ten teenagers run amuck for 72 hours shooting people in the largest city of the land. Only serfs or slaves would tolerate that.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:56 am 52. Mongoose:

Wretchard: There is a third element: A good offense. Preemptive direct action against the terrorists’ various networks must logically follow from your other two points.

The three of these together seem to me to nicely sum up the Bush administrations vision of the WOT, BTW.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:29 am 53. Starling:

Watching the excerpt of “Heat” I recognized the underpass where Denzel Washington’s character in “Training Day” met his demise at the hands of the Russian mafia. This led me to recall that the word “training” is one of the most commonly used words in this comment thread.

An examination of thread further reveals that the large majority of the uses of “training” and related words centers on that which the terrorists had and where they got it. The rest pertains to training that the Indian police, military, and guards should have had but didn’t. This leads me to wonder, from where will the Indian’s get the training they so sorely need?

If I am Erik Prince, CEO of Blackwater, have I already made a call to pitch my services? Conversely, has Erik’s phone been ringing off the hook this Thanksgiving weekend? Has Blackwater’s switchboard been lit up like an Xmas tree? If not theirs, then whose? The world has watched this bloody spectacle unfold and many a police chief and head of internal security the world over must have known that Mumbai’s nightmare could be their own.

There would seem to be a pressing need at this moment for advisors- private sector or military- who can abstract the lessons of this attack and help governments improve their chances of preventing or fending off such an attack in their streets and towns.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:46 am 54. Ruby:

cjm: identify the dead terrrists, find their families, execute the families, post videos.

Maybe that’s what the followers of Jesus would do, but it’s not what their own scriptures tell them to do:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mad Fiddler: This incompetence is most acute recently in their persistent refusal to state the obvious Islamic identity of so many terrorists. They are instead deemed to be “south asian” or “disgruntled youths” or “angry dissidents” but almost NEVER as Islamic Jihadists.

Everyone is just following the leadership on that issue provided by our current Commander-in-Chief at the very beginning:

“Islam is peace. These terrorists don’t represent peace. They represent evil and war. When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that’s made brothers and sisters out of every race.” – GW Bush, 9/17/2001

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:03 am 55. Peter Boston:

A discussion of terrorist tactics is interesting. Perhaps we can use the information to add Fire and Maneuver to our grammar school curriculum. Is that what we want?

Mumbai, Bali, Belsen, London, Madrid, New York, are just a few places that we have experienced attacks upon civilization in just the last few years.

The Mumbai assault, like the others, is an assault upon the idea that human beings should live together in an ordered society and resolve conflicts and their many differing interests by reason and discussion.

People can differ by defining a just society in terms of opportunity or outcome, and those debates can become heated, but in a civilized society one side does not influence the debate by acts of random slaughter.

The perpetrators place themselves outside the cone of legal protection erected by civil society and should be, must be, removed from this life so they can do no more harm. The perpetrators are not only the trigger pullers but anybody who has remotely enabled or encouraged or knew of the plot and did nothing to prevent it or warn the possible victims. Guilt extends to each individual who has given a penny to any “charity” which so much as provided a drink of water to the person who transported the ammunition.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:04 am 56. Limpet6:

The buddy pair is hardly rocket science. For a start you have unarmed civilians outgunned. So you don’t need anything more than a one-man team so long as you are firing. The problem is the firing gaps. So you have to riflemen work together to cover the gaps.

They didn’t need much in the way of “borrowed tactics.” This was like a bank job.

Walk through it the scenario and a deserted area and the problems would come to you.

Don’t ascribe great things to these bullies. Their advantage was training with self-loading rifles and a supply of grenades.

By the way, Underwater Demolition used the buddy pair as the basic tactical element in WWII. I don’t think these Pakistani punks stole it from them.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:18 am 57. Starko:

I haven’t followed this closely in terms of the Indian response, but so far my impression is that it took actual military commando units to clean this up.

What amazes me is the apparent lack of a proper SWAT team for a city the size of Mumbai. Granted, there probably aren’t a lot of guns floating around like there are in say, LA County (where LAPD has a full-time SWAT team), but even in western Europe, there are counter-terrorism or other units that can deliver a SWAT-type response.

No one can say what the result would’ve been, but the response was so amazingly poor that things are going to change very quickly, in India and around the world.

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:07 am 58. steveaz:

#9, Fiddler,
“But it takes a breathtaking obstinacy to deny the ubiquitously Islamic agression[…”

Or, a paid obstinacy, too, Fiddler. If a million euros had just been cached in a Dubai bank under my wife’s name, and if I had been promised a Rhodes Scholarship and a slot at Oxford for my soon-to-graduate-high school daughter, I could find it in me to be just as obstinate.

Media = the new King-Makers! Which means unaccountable, super-wealthy, foreign players and unelected “journalists” have found a way to hot-wire Granddad’s T-Bird.

I hope they know how to drive.

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:14 am 59. geoffb:

The “buddy pair” reminded me of the tank tactic of “Overwatch”.

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:31 am 60. Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » ‘I was told to kill to my last breath’: Was the Mumbai attack a probing attack?:

[...] All carried out by a small number of personnel, organized into buddy pairs. [...]

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:49 am 61. Cascajun:

Starling (#7) – sniper teams are smaller than a fire team, but they are not maneuvering units.

Here is a documentary on the LAPD shootout with the Bank of America robbers in 1997.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:51 am 62. Peter Boston:

This is a long piece but it does have underage sex and bestiality in it. So enjoy!

Steyn Online

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:07 am 63. lucy:

I just hope the instinct for survival will kick in soon because it seems like right now a vast number of people in the west would be perfectly happy to die (the opposing of FISA, Patriot Act, electing President Narcissus, leaking of secrets, UK accepting muslim demands weekly, and many more examples of the progressive weakening of our societies) and are getting in the way of the rest of us protecting ourselves.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:18 am 64. whit:

The BBC has still not opened a commentary thread about the Bombay attacks.

BBC Have your say

I suggested a thread addressing the questions of:
Are Islamists a part of Islam? Are violent jihadis a part of Islam?

I doubt we’ll see that discussion topic there.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:29 am 65. geoffgo:

WIO:

any islamic terrorist that is captured while committing terror shall be killed and fed to the croc/sharks….

Must they be killed first?

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:29 am 66. whit:

56. Limpet6: hit the nail on the head. We’ve seen two similar incidents in the States. One was the L.A. bank job where two desperadoes with automatic weapons and body armor held off the lighter armed police. Another was an incident in S. Florida where a lightly armed FBI team attempted to apprehend two bank robbers armed with a Ruger range rifle.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:34 am 67. veracious:

36. exhelodrvr:

I could image that their shooting from the hip, may have been a phase in the assault. The goal may have been to scatter anyone who might dare to intradict their advance, terrorize as many as possible (bullets flying in ones direction do this) and misdirect the official response teams, posing as inexperienced hacks.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:35 am 68. steeple:

55 Peter Boston. So well said, as is typical of the quality of your posts. Many thanks.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:36 am 69. Insufficiently Sensitive:

When news organizations consistently withhold information critical to making sense of the patterns of events, you have to conclude that those organizations are themselves part of the problem.

Not only that: you have to conclude that any ‘news’ transmission you see or hear has been deliberately purged of some information which would be important for you yourself to know.

Defend that, ‘journalists’.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:38 am 70. Lifeofthemind:

The German army in WW-I developed small team tactics that could break through the trench war stalemate. It came to late in the war to save them. Twenty plus years ago in the Navy we practiced shipboard security drills with two man teams, shotgun and .45 going around doors one high and one low, for clearing the inside of the ship.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:50 am 71. Insufficiently Sensitive:

The siege was particularly troubling because “they didn’t spare women or children.”’

Particularly troubling? The whole point of terrorism is to terrorize EVERYBODY, and the deaths of innocents ‘just like me’ is the desired objective. The more the better.

Hence the economics of shooting from the hip – the targets were probably clumps of civilians. No need for precise targeting, just spread murder and mayhem as widely as possible. The MSM will finish the job of spreading the fear.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:53 am 72. fred:

Apparently some photographer was an eyewitness to the carnage that was going on at the train station in Bombay. He said he saw plenty of police, who had sidearms, refuse to pull ‘em out and snuff out the gunmen – and they could have done it with stealth, since the photographer got within 30 feet of one of the Muslim terrorists undetected.

I’ve got a 9mm Smith & Wesson pistol. If I were carrying it (assuming I eventually get my permit to do so)and if I were in a situation like that, and I have a clear shot (and the terrorist doesn’t even know I’m there), you can bet I’m going to empty half my clip into the guy. The larger point being that their 2-man, “buddy” assault tactics are no good to them when fire comes from and unexpected position from an unexpected armed civilian. Equals one dead terrorist and his buddy now has to face unknown threats to his very mission and life with no backup.

We have to get away from this mentality of ourselves being too civilized to fight back. Kafir societies have too many lawyers who are advocating for the scumbags.

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:19 am 73. programmer:

Not exactly OT question:

Any Marines on here remember or were involved with small two(?) man teams assigned to villages in Viet Nam (I Corps, mostly I think). They were called CAT teams or some such. Seemed to be very effective. My “remembering ticklies” are triggered by the fact that my artillery units (Army) were tasked with rapid response to their calls for supporting fire.

Note:

I googled, but haven’t found anything. Is old age finally winning?

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:34 am 74. MIke Reynolds:

Peter, I think you mean Beslan instead of Belsen. (dreadful as Belsen certainly was, we can no longer call it recent)

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:35 am 75. Lifeofthemind:

@fred.
Here is the tactical test question. You are a civilian with a CCW and right in front of you is a two man team, one terrorist with an automatic rifle, sidearm and grenades and one lawyer. Now comes the test question…..

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:35 am 76. nelson:

Mumbai proves that Bush’s decision to attack Itaq after 9/11 was the right one.

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:41 am 77. Lifeofthemind:

Good PJM thread by Soeren Kern, HT Instapundit,
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/russia-tightens-europe%e2%80%99s-energy-noose/

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:49 am 78. fred:

@74 LifeoftheMind,

The test… well, I aim primarily at the terrorist in a rapid spray pattern. If stray rounds happen to hit the lawyer joined at his hip, well…

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:55 am 79. Lifeofthemind:

@fred,
No rapid spray with a handgun. Two to the body and one to the head, 4 seconds.

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:00 am 80. Quig:

@fred,

Two double taps. And drop the shyster first!

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:14 am 81. JW:

If I recall, the idea of buddy teams was in Clancy, “Clear and Present Danger,” which came out (was writen in?) 1989 (?).

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:39 am 82. fred:

I guess what I meant was that I rapidly empty my clip in the tight area of said mujahadeen and his lawyer. My clip holds ten rounds, so about five double taps should do it.

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:42 am 83. njcommuter:

If I may presume: the terrorists have learned fire and movement from us, from watching us, and from reading our manuals, which are posted online. But our tactics are not geared toward indiscriminate slaughter. The question is, will they develop any tactical innovations that allow them that advantage?

One of Bobbitt’s observations in Terror and Consent is that in every age the barbarians seeking to destroy civilization have stolen the tools developed by civilization and turned them against civilization. They are doing it now, with the internet, international currency exchange, small-unit tactics, even turnkey delivery (think A.Q.Kahn). Yes, this has happened before, in other ages.

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:47 am 84. downtowndubai:

hey

can you get a weenie lefty like FARID ZACHARIAS to make sure the terrorist captured get his full human rights !!!! you know koran, prayer mat, full dental plan-implants and smile improvement optional, compass to local mecca…ya dig.

oh nevermind….

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:52 am 85. aaron:

I believe our western attitudes adversely influence our judgment.

In a tribal or clan society there is no individuality, personal rights, etc. The family owns you and all you do. If you get ahead, the clan shares the wealth. If you screw up the clan ostracizes you (banishment=death or worse).

We need to hold their clans responsible and destroy their seed. Publicly. Visibly. In a way that leaves no doubt.

Brutal? Yes, but that’s the point.

If the jihadis knew that inevitably after martyrdom every single member of his family would be hunted to the end of the earth and killed, maybe their mothers would not encourage them to be a shaheed. In fact, odds are good they’d drown the cursed foolish child the day he expresses such ambitions.

(This would have to be backed up with a will and determination that’s rare these days.)

They have to understand that their deaths will not advance their cause, as it does now, but will blight their tribe for all time.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:18 am 86. Cannoneer No. 4:

fred, everybody who can pack, really ought to start packing, pretty much all the time, as a patriotic duty. The lack of a governmentally-recognized CCW should not be the excuse for shirking this duty. My CCW expired while I was overseas and I haven’t got a new yet, but really it only served to make me feel better about packing and less paranoid about being made. Well, I should be paranoid about being made, and pack better, and even though the state I’m living in requires no training, they still want $18.00 and fingerprints to enter me into a data base that I can’t trust them not to turn over to the BATF next year.

A CCW should be a laminated card with the text of the Second Amendment printed on it, reciprocally recognized in every state, territory, and commonwealth of the Republic.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:28 am 87. NahnCee:

I would love to see an attack like this go down in Berkeley. And in the spirit of helpfulness, would be willing to wait for commando’s to be flown in from New Delhi to put a stop to it.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:33 am 88. Ruby:

NahnCee: I would love to see an attack like this go down in Berkeley. And in the spirit of helpfulness, would be willing to wait for commando’s to be flown in from New Delhi to put a stop to it.

What are you talking about you would love to see an attack in Berkeley? I have an uncle there, and the parents of my sister-in-law lives hard by. That’s US soil. Jesus!

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:44 am 89. bob:

I almost said, I’ll see your Berkeley, and raise you a San Francisco and Vegas, but thought better of it.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:45 am 90. NahnCee:

Bob – how about Vermont?

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:47 am 91. NahnCee:

Ruby, well you know it’d not happen like Mumbai because the two Marines in that recruiting station your uncle and parents and sister-in-law have been trying to run out of town would have it all under control in a couple of hours.

Why am I totally not surprised that Ruby comes from a Berkeley background.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:49 am 92. fred:

Cannoneer,

My hesitancy to obtain the CCW here in New Hampshire owes to the fact that I really don’t want to be in the federal data base, in case the party currently in power want to start confiscating. That long-legged mack daddy has a legislative record for gun grabbing. I want to stay under the radar in every possible way. And yet I do feel it to be responsible to carry and conceal, but feeling funny about doing that without the permit. I rather suspect I’m not alone in having these thoughts and feelings about it.

I haven’t been able to get to the range in awhile. I injured my right knee back in October and have been pretty much staying sedentary until I have my FOURTH right knee arthroscopy on December 10th. Torn meniscus (again!).

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:50 am 93. bob:

I quess I’m neutral on Vermont. Never been there. Don’t they have the socialist Congressman? Anyway, they have maple syrup, can’t be all bad. I’ll stick with my aforementioned.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:51 am 94. fred:

Ruby,

The underlying problem that NahnCee is referring to: Moonbats have a thoroughly unrealistic worldview, especially when it comes to Islamic terror/jihad. My experience with libs/socialists is that many honestly are clueless about the nature of the enemy. They really do believe that if we give them what they want and appease their grievances they’ll leave us alone. Well, there’s a history of this sort of thing going back throughout the 1,400 year jihad history. Peoples in Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Hindu, and Buddhist lands tried to appease the Muslims by sending tribute and ceding territory in exchange for “peace.” Well, concessions and jizya don’t work. And Islamic doctrine teaches that the only peace the kafir can have with Islam is the tactical “hudna” that so many are completely ignorant of.

Besides, Beserkeley is Ground Zero of the Movement encapsulating everything most of us here are against. Maybe a good beat down at the hands of the Ummah would cause those people (the socialists) to wake up and smell the coffee.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:59 am 95. Kirk Parker:

Tim san,

“in a city where the population has been disarmed – … San Francisco”

Actually, San Francisco is not like the others. While California’s discretionary-issue concealed-carry regimen continues to be a problem, the SF ban itself was overturned.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:02 pm 96. JD:

#72 programmer:

That was the CAP.

http://www.capmarine.com/cap/data.htm

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:18 pm 97. Insufficiently Sensitive:

What are you talking about you would love to see an attack in Berkeley? I have an uncle there, and the parents of my sister-in-law lives hard by. That’s US soil. Jesus!

Well, finally. A lefty is finally exposed, expecting some sort of privelege to extend to its family and itself, – the sort of privelege which plenty of modern lefties refuse to consider in places like Gaza and the West Bank, where such terrorism is considered righteous indignation.

So Ruby would be distressed were such acts to be committed in Berkeley <That’s US soil. Jesus!, the home of the enlightened? Welcome Ruby to the ranks of the terrorized. And what would Ruby do to prevent such an event there?

(Hint: perhaps GWB had the right idea in toppling the regime in Iraq – you know, one of them state sponsors of terrorism?) Nearly the whole US Congress voted in favor of it, if one hasn’t banished that inconvenient fact from memory.

And the steady race of Congressional members to repudiate that commitment wasn’t even safe to participate in until the MSM had had a couple of years to pour constant deafening defeatism over the heads of the public as a softening-up measure, in the longest sustained political attack campaign aimed at the 2008 elections.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:19 pm 98. JFSanders:

San Fransisco PD would do a very good imitation of Mumbai PD.

As for Berkley, It would only harden the mindset as they could not see reality. It would always be distorted by their rose colored glasses. They would blame western civilization.

Ruby, So it is ok in your book for it to happen “over there” Says a bunch about you.

Jim

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:20 pm 99. Mongoose:

Bob: First things first: Georgetown and the Upper West and Upper East Sides.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:23 pm 100. Cannoneer No. 4:

I doubt Cannoneer #4, myself or any of the other regular commenter’s here will be lucky enough to see a “buddy Team” of young terrorists pop up in front of us at the local mall or hotel (I carry a full size Kimber .45 when in CONUS just in case I do get lucky) but I promise you if we did those boys would not escape our tender mercies without a few leaky holes in their torso.

You are a true warrior, Tim, and a real man-at-arms.

I’d really rather not be so lucky, but it would be even worse to be so tested and found wanting.

I’ll have to upgrade my firepower from a 5-shot snubby. What is your opinion of Commander-size 1911’s? I wanted a Star PD when I was young. Don’t see too many of those anymore.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:26 pm 101. Mongoose:

JD: Did not the army have a similar program? PRU?

Think it was after ‘68>

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:31 pm 102. 3Case:

Limpet6, Are you a retired Seal?

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:38 pm 103. Mongoose:

C4: nice article.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:41 pm 104. Leon:

According to the BBC, it was “celebrity terrorism”. Not even once the glaring fact that they were Muslims or that the attack was planned months in advance in Pakistan is mentioned in this “brilliant analysis”:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7755684.stm

What is wrong with journalists?

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:43 pm 105. Pascal:

Time out NahnCee, bob, IS.

That looks too much like a self-parody on the part of “Ruby” to get worked up about. In fact, I’ve yet to see any reason to take anything he has said seriously, including his apology (2×4 sees that anyway).

It would be spam were he not so provocative. Certainly he shows he knows how to push buttons around here. I’m beginning to see all he does is as counterproductive, since it sure takes up a lot of band width and dilutes the meatier parts of the discussion.

It’s an “of course” that Beserkeley deserves to be hit first, so why argue over it? It’s also not likely. The terrorists only want to give the impression they are crazy. They are not so crazy as to hit the seat of one of their strategic allies except by accident.

I’m with 2×4. Please ignore the troll.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:43 pm 106. fred:

Wow. What a weapon the M-14 DMR is! Nice artile, Cannoneer. Sounds like a great weapon for light infantry tactics.

Nov 30, 2008 - 12:51 pm 107. DJMoore:

Let me also recommend the “buddy team” training video marketed as Christopher McQuarrie’s The Way of the Gun (recommended to his class by my tactical shooting instructor; I’d pay good money for a class consisting of nothing but a scene by scene analysis of this film, possibly followed by re-enactments on the range). It presents excellent demonstrations of one- and two- man tactics in the face of sometimes overwhelming enemy fire through a wide variety of easily followed, realistic scenarios.

It does not shy away from presenting the kinds of mistakes that can arise in the heat of action, such as the failure to adequately recon intended cover occurring at about the 4:50 mark in this clip.

Note the obsessive attention to tactical reloading at every opportunity, even when there is, apparently, no longer any threat.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:03 pm 108. Insufficiently Sensitive:

It’s an “of course” that Beserkeley deserves to be hit first, so why argue over it? It’s also not likely.

Can’t agree that any particular place ‘deserves’ to get hit first (unless perhaps ISI headquarters), but you’re right it’s not likely. Terrorists with long-range goals in mind would prefer less anti-American populations, since an attack in Berkeley would bring the real world to at least a few ‘innocent families’ of the activist cohorts, and start a process of opinion change.

That change would swing away from the mindless coddled urban leftism of the ultra-Bluestate knowitalls, and toward a more sober appraisal of the need for a balanced approach to ‘civil rights’. Where the ‘rights’, say, of the Guantanamo sufferers must be balanced against the rights of American citizens (even including Berkloids) to live without jeopardy of released terrorists (captured non-uniformed combatants) being released smirking, by Court order, among us.

Such a swing would shrink the sea that the anti-Americans now so confidently swim in.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:11 pm 109. JFSanders:

106:

IS, Then why the attack on that bastion of liberal thought in New York?

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:23 pm 110. Ruby:

Fred: Beserkeley is Ground Zero of the Movement encapsulating everything most of us here are against. Maybe a good beat down at the hands of the Ummah would cause those people (the socialists) to wake up and smell the coffee.

I was in uniform in Reagan’s Navy from 1984 to 1990, and in civvies from 1990 until today. For almost twenty-five years I have been working to keep attacks from American soil, and then I come here on an allegedly pro-US blog and see a post where someone would “love to see” an attack on a part of that sacred soil that happens to be the site of a college whose students took a leadership role in dissent pertaining to optional wars like Vietnam or Iraq. Have any of you been there? It’s not a giant commune, it’s a city in the East Bay with stores and churches and schools and husbands and wives and children. One hundred thousand good folks. What if an earthquake leveled it, would we see the laughter of schadenfreude overflowing on the BC? I thought I saw everything, but I guess not.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:27 pm 111. Peter Boston:

I saw another article recently on the M-14. For sale at Springfield Armory for about $1,600 a pop. Nice weapon.

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:28 pm 112. NahnCee:

I was thinking from a tactical strategic point of view: is there any place in the whole entire United States *less* likely to have either guns at hand to fight back, or the will-power within their ivory-towered souls to stand steady, OR the intelligence to do anything except sit still while they’re being mowed down.

Granted it wouldn’t cause the uproar of taking down a financial center, but damn, from a terrorist point of view, what a good target-rich environment. Can you say, “soft underbelly”.

(They even go so far as to wear nice concentric tie-died t-shirts to better enable accurate target-shooting.)

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:42 pm 113. Ruby:

From a terrorist point a view a rich target, Nahncee. I see. That explains why you would love to see it get hit. Check.

I don’t have a terrorist point of view. I am about defending every square inch of this country from attack. That is why I work for the Department of Defense. And I would never allow my name to be attached to a post calling for an attack, or even wishing for an attack.

By the way, “Hello NSC!”

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:54 pm 114. JD:

#100 Mongoose:

http://www.groups.sfahq.com/pru_rvn.htm

Nov 30, 2008 - 1:54 pm 115. Insufficiently Sensitive:

It’s not a giant commune, it’s a city in the East Bay with stores and churches and schools and husbands and wives and children.

And nestled among those ideological ‘noncombatants’ is a major concentration of intensely transnational progressives, with all the support facilities of a major University. In my younger days it was more like the above bucolic description, but on my return from a 2-year Army hitch in 1965 it was already obvious that wearing a uniform there would jeopardize the wearer to spiteful abuse or worse. And two weeks ago it was the fountainhead of the intensely antidemocratic movement to nullify the popular vote for Proposition 8, by means of mob actions and personal attacks against those who contributed funds in support of it.

IS, Then why the attack on that bastion of liberal thought in New York?

Because it had an iconic symbol of American achievement called the World Trade Center, wherein a lot of perceived capitalists were productively working. By comparison the Campanile is a toy.

I saw another article recently on the M-14. For sale at Springfield Armory for about $1,600 a pop. Nice weapon.

Agreed. After basic training with the classic M-1, we were issued M-14s at Fort Bragg. I always wondered why they were replaced with those glorified .22s which jammed at the slightest acquaintance with dirt. But that price sure isn’t cheap.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:01 pm 116. Charles:

I think that US successes at taking out terrorists on the west side of pakistan plus the recent life threatening attacks on Pakistan’s government by AQ– has lowered the tolerance for all kinds of terrorist activity in Pakistan.

If I were a betting man, I’d wager that the Lakish group responsible for the Indian attack — is going to suddenly find itself decapitated. They won’t see it coming because they will have thought the ISI had their back.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:15 pm 117. whiskey:

Anyplace with lots of single women and/or gays will have the social attitudes seen in Berkeley. New York, Austin, Minneapolis, Seattle, all have the same clueless Yuppie worldview and they will not change until the Yuppie society changes.

Which if this stuff goes on long enough, it will.

Drudge reports that the plan was to kill 5,000 people. Something that could be achieved at a major shopping mall, stadium, and so on.

The anger at the government has caused the resignation of the Interior Minister. The hostages, were tortured. The Jewish ones the most in such horrific manners that the pathologists used to dealing with bomb mangled bodies could not describe it.

It has begun.

Obama’s first move will be to ban guns. Dems are already talking about that. However it won’t fix the problem, and even India has it’s limits. A few attacks here, there, with 500 to 5,000 dead, randomly, in places like the Mall of America, the Empire State Building, downtown Chicago or Seattle, etc. and the terrorists will get their wish — a total confrontation.

But that will only happen when the whole of PC-Multiculturalism is collapsed. As it is collapsing in India. Indian papers are already calling for WAR with Pakistan (hint: they already have it, but only Pakistan is fighting).

And just as terrorists adapt our two man teams, we will end up adapting terrorist tactics. The failure of the states across the West to stop this tactic and others, and the female-gay-yuppie and non-White alliance to appease and encourage Jihadist attacks at every turn, will simply provoke a counter-response of tit-for-tat. A mall slaughtered and 4,000 dead in a Western nation (during the holidays), and various vigilante groups will spring up and burn down Mosques. With or without Muslims inside.

The sort of “anarcho-tyranny” where governments imprison people for the wrong trash in the Wheelie bins or fighting back during criminal attacks (as in the UK) is not sustainable when terrorist campaigns show up how the electoral alliances are explicitly against the White working-middle class majorities. A situation like that is GUARANTEED to produce a vigilante reaction, often in concert with criminal organizations that face being pushed off the street and turf.

I could not for example imagine a policy more designed to push Britain into the hands of native organized crime figures than the current wave of PC appeasement of the terror campaigns there along with PC appeasement of Sharia/Jihad (a prominent Lawyer has called for Sharia to be REPLACING elements of common law and to be the law of the land). While opposition members of parliament are arrested for reporting on the Brown government’s policy of having illegal aliens do security work, instead of native Britons, in a depression, including Parliament!

When leadership abandons the fight, the people turn to whoever will fight. That’s going to be criminals. And they will copy terrorist tactics.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:50 pm 118. Ruby:

Insufficiently Sensitive: And two weeks ago [Berkeley] was the fountainhead of the intensely antidemocratic movement to nullify the popular vote for Proposition 8, by means of mob actions and personal attacks against those who contributed funds in support of it.

I see. Then we must agree to disagree. For another fifteen years I will continue to turn around torpedoes which defend our boomers which in turn defend every city in the United States. You may continue to defend people who would love to see one of our American cities fall under terrorist attack because the politics of some of the people who live there differs from your own.

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:54 pm 119. fred:

I don’t like places like Beserkeley. And it was a lame defense of its value put up there on #108. Not likely that the Islamic terrorists would hit a place like that anyway, because that’s where their allies are. The enemy isn’t stupid, ya know. They understand perfectly the value that their allies the Western socialists bring to the struggle against us capitalist pig dogs. Beserkeley is an American microcosm of what exists in Western Europe. Viva la revolucion! Viva Che!

Nov 30, 2008 - 2:57 pm 120. chipper:

Perhaps someone has already advanced this idea, but what if AQ strategists wanted to raise the stakes at a time when their backs were against the wall, why would they not set out to throw fuel on the India-Paki tender? Perhaps this is not Paki supported but AQ fertilizing the seeds of paranoia between the two cultures.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:05 pm 121. Wadeusaf:

Given the deeply intrenched anti-indian and anti western sentiment withing not only the Pakistani Armed forces but within much of the civilian population I think all of Pakistan will be at war with itself in short order. I sure hope that we have those nukes on a short leash. If so we can use the Afghan pak border as an anvil with Indian/Chinese or other forces as the hammer. Iran, KSA, Syria and Russia, take note please.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:12 pm 122. NahnCee:

oh, hell, if we’re going to get into conspiracy theories, the thought crossed my mind to wonder if the CIA had trained and sent in the kidlet terrorists in order to give India an excuse to go after Pakistan.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:15 pm 123. Ruby:

Fred: I don’t like places like Beserkeley. And it was a lame defense of its value put up there on #108.

A lame defense? I’ve see people say “nuke all the muslims” on the BC all the time, and I shrug it off as bluster, but I never thought I’d see people actually calling for the terrorists to hit an American city. Are you really so ignorant that you conflate the University with the whole city? Has anyone even been out here to the west coast? Berkeley looks like any other place in Cali, with parks, churches, schools, and shops. But it has a university with students who don’t fit the BC profile, so Nahncee says, “I would love to see an attack like this go down in Berkeley,” presumably the BART station, and her retinue of supporters rush to defend her rather than the frikken country. Talk about a lame defense. And it hacks me off because I’ve given 24 years of my life to the United States Department of DEFENSE.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:18 pm 124. Wadeusaf:

Ruby,

You’re a kick. A tweek in the noggin. Is that you’re voice on the audio clip?
Please, keep your sense of humor in tact. (If not more tactful.
I preserve your right to your opinion, but I’ll read it with the sly eyed edge with which I savor my children’s POV.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:24 pm 125. Insufficiently Sensitive:

For another fifteen years I will continue to turn around torpedoes which defend our boomers which in turn defend every city in the United States.

What are you smoking???

You may continue to defend people who would love to see one of our American cities fall under terrorist attack

And you may practice weird rhetoric all you want, but if you want communication you might attempt some recognizeable use of the English language. Projection of your own fantasies doesn’t accomplish that.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:24 pm 126. Captain Ramen:

Ruby, how does the fact that you served (and I sincerely thank you for your service) negate the fact that places like Berkeley, Los Angeles, New York City, and other densely populated urban centers are full of people that at the very least, wish to see GWB fail in the GWOT, and at most, hate America and everything it stands for? Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of decent people in Berkeley (if you need proof go to zombietime and look at all the locals that came out to support the Marines). But you cannot also ignore the fact that these same areas are going to be the most likely targets of a terrorist attack.

The most target rich environments are the same places that wealthy urban elites live, work and play. I realize this is a tactless thing to say, but red counties are far less likely to have brown people that are not of hispanic origin. A Paki terrorist ain’t gonna blend in very well in Kern county.

I think NahnCee and the others are more commenting on the irony of an attack there – well, it would be ironic if it weren’t so goddamn predictable and even expected.

Whiskey, IS that scenario inevitable? I have a hard time seeing that happening in small town America. I would think that local law enforcement would be in contact with, and even reliant on, the local militia.

Large urban centers are another story. How many of us living in a big city know who our local cops are? I am concerned that law abiding gun owners in Los Angeles would be reluctant to get involved in stopping an attack, if only for fear of getting hit by blue fire. How do we identify ourselves as good guys to the cops?

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:31 pm 127. Unsk:

Whoa guys- there are moonbats everywhere. To single out places like Berkeley or New York for a terrorist attack just because there are a significantly higher percentage of moonbats there, is un-American. I also know moonbats in small towns of the American Heartland- does that mean they should be singled out too?

I’m frustrated too with the results of the last election and the vile politics of the left. The fact is that the Republican party leadership, men like Bush, McCain, and a whole lot of prissy Senators like Hagel, Warner and Lugar, did a wretched job of defending the cause of liberty politically. They wilted and cowered in the face of aggressive attacks and arguments from the moonbat left. If our political leadership won’t stand up to the arguments of the moonbats, the moonbat’s arguments will hold sway just as they have for many years in places like Berkeley and New York where the moonbats have run amok.

For instance, in a recent thread Rumcrook posted the story of Ahmed Shakir, an Iraqi embassy intelligence operative that escorted two of the 911 bombers to a pre-planning meeting of 911 in 2000. Shakir was caught red handed twice just after 911 linking him, and Iraq to both the 1993 World Trade Center bombings and 911. Ever since Stephen Hayes wrote this story many years ago, the Republican and conservative leadership class and many a conservative pundit has run away from this story. Except for typical fear of media ridicule, can anyone tell me why they ran away from this story? This story should have been repeated endlessly, yet it was dropped down the rabbit hole.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:36 pm 128. Wadeusaf:

Nancy re: #120,

See Bill Roggio’s latest. From about three minutes ago.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:37 pm 129. kaba:

Even my small city of 15,000 population has a “Special Response Team” now. These guys are specially trained; carry their equipment in their personal vehicles; and are on a 30 minute response time. They probably wouldn’t have been able to stop an attack like this but could certainly have slowed it down and reduced the number of surviving threats.

And I don’t leave my door without my CCW. I pray I’ll never need to use it but I will not be a helpless victim.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:51 pm 130. Ruby:

Captain Ramen: Ruby, how does the fact that you served (and I sincerely thank you for your service) negate the fact that places like Berkeley, Los Angeles, New York City, and other densely populated urban centers are full of people that at the very least, wish to see GWB fail in the GWOT…

Number one, there’s only seven weeks to go for GWB to fail in the GWOT. I think everyone has moved on.

Second, my service it negates nothing, it signfies nothing, it is what it is. My father became a US citizen under a 1947 agreement that is still in force that allows Filipinos recruited into the US Navy to become citizens after three years. But there was not enough money for me to go to college, so I enlisted too. My primary motivation was to have a career. But I developed a deep pride in America. Can you imagine how cool it was to be on active duty under the Gipper?

Or alternatively how much it sucked to work in the DoD under Slick Willie?

I realize this is a tactless thing to say, but red counties are far less likely to have brown people that are not of hispanic origin. A Paki terrorist ain’t gonna blend in very well in Kern county.

I am a brown person not of Hispanic origin. Please don’t tell me that makes me a terrorist suspect.

I think NahnCee and the others are more commenting on the irony of an attack there

Nope, NahnCee said she’d love for it to happen, and she’d prefer the Mumbai police to respond. Pascal says “of course Beserkeley deserves to be hit first”. It’s all in black and white forever because you can’t delete your posts on pajamas media. And the true irony is that they are calling other people moonbats.

Nov 30, 2008 - 3:57 pm 131. trangbang68:

FYI, Those who are confused. “Ruby the Red” and
“Ruby” are not one and the same (other than sexual proclivity)Ruby is long time Belmont contrarian Teresita while Ruby Red is a new Lesbian in town.
Berkley is not a likely target of terrorists because it wouldn’t be spectacular enough. If they ever decide to activate suicide bombers and terror cells here, NYC, DC ,Chicago and LA are far more likely, especially the national shrines in those places.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:17 pm 132. Pay Attention:

Ruby –

Ignore the troll.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:29 pm 133. pst314:

“One hundred thousand good folks.”

Yeah, sure. Pull the other one, why don’t you. I suggest you save such an obvious falsehood for people who have spent the last 40 years in a cave.

And no, it’s not just the university, vile as so many of its professors are.

I don’t want a terrorist attack anywhere in the US, but that doesn’t mean I have to pretend that Berkeley is populated by normal decent patriotic Americans.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:30 pm 134. Captain Ramen:

I am a brown person not of Hispanic origin. Please don’t tell me that makes me a terrorist suspect.

So am I. Don’t be pedantic. You and I both know that someone that even LOOKS arab or indo-iranian is going to stick out like a sore thumb in Kern County, and is therefore going to have a hell of a harder time maneuvering into position than say at the Glendale Galleria.

Don’t you agree that a terrorist attack is much more likely in densely populated urban centers? And that those same areas have the highest number of America haters per capita? That is an empirical fact, and the presence of a few leftist nutters in red America doesn’t change it.

There is a line of reasoning out there that says that if only president Bush was not hamstrung by the far left, he would have brought all forms of US power to bear on the Jihadists, and we’d be a lot more secure today than we are. I suppose there is no way to tell for sure if this is the case; even if Multiverse theory turns out to be correct, there is no known way of observing the other outcomes.

There is however a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence. How many movies have come out portraying any heroic action by the US military in prosecution of the GWOT? It is not as if there aren’t any examples out there. Sure, we’ve seen a few movies where FBI agents get into street battles with islamic terrorists. But for the most part Hollywood has produced crap like in the Valley of Elah (which tanked at the box office).

Meanwhile, bestselling game Call of Duty 4 features an Anglo-American alliance fighting Muslims and Russians, about as non-PC as you can get (one scene has your Captain execute a captured terrorist after he gets the information he needs).

As far as I am concerned actions like that do not strengthen this nation against terrorism – they only serve to weaken it and make such an attack against me and my family that much more likely. And thus anyone who engages in such activity is my enemy. I may not wish to see people in big cities get hurt by such an attack, since I am one of them. But don’t expect me to have any sympathy either.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:37 pm 135. Limpet6:

3case

What makes you think that?

The press is puffing these guys up to superman level. They had the right hardware and a basic notion of how to use it.

A free society in peacetime is sadly easy to turn into a slaughterhouse.

Pakistan whats peace? Then it must authorize a raid by India to clean out the losers Pakistan can’t control…or turn them over to India on a plater.

Pakistaniis financially broke and administratively broken. The best idea may be to break it up. Pashtunistan to Afghanistan, Kashmir to India…the Tribal territories to themselves…

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:44 pm 136. Mongoose:

There are plenty of conservatives in NYC, they are just not too many up on the upper east and west side — at least not out in the open. Go out into the other boroughs and there are working class neighborhoods. They do tend to vote Democrat, but they are hardly moonbats. There is a substantial minority of conservatives in the business community of Manhattan too, they do have to lay low, but they are there. A lot of that nonsense is to separate themselves from us peasants, particularity up there on the Upper East Side. We should work at giving them some other outlet for their snobbery as a group, they are hardly committed radicals. (Bridge? Peanut farming? we need to think of something.)

I once taught at Berkeley, and I can tell you that not everyone in Berkeley is a moonbat. There are some strong DoD, DOE and Intel community connections, and also connections to many large industrial think tanks, R &D labs, etc. They have LLL and LBL labs there (or nearby) and havea long history of managing Los Alamos (Sandia too IIRC). There are connections with all the national labs, and Armed Services labs like the NRL, as well as service research offices like the ONR, DARPA, etc.
A great many of our nukes were designed in conjugation with the University. The science and engineering faculties have their share of right of center people, though not a lot of the farther right — more Libertarians and fiscal conservatives. There are many there that are what we used to call “honorable democrats” ranging from the politics of Scoop Jackson to Patrick Moynihan (more of the latter than the former). I had several good friends there that had served in some pretty intense military units.

The political intensity varies there from decade to decade; it is pretty lefty now, but for much of the 70’s and 80’s most of the real moonbats were hangers on from the 60’s and most were not connected to the University at all. One did not have to encounter the hard left much on campus all that much if one just went about one’s life. Granted, this is not the case today, but there is no reason to think that this cannot change in time. Of course, the faculty issue is mostly spurred by the 60’s crowd actually gaining power. What will happen as the Boomers retire is anyone’s guess. Berkeley sure made a conservative out of me, I can tell you that. Many have this experience.

For the current locals it is a lot like Marin county was 30 years ago — Berkeley has gone upscale and a lot of the people that live there now have nothing to do with the University. I am not sure how deep their commitment is , when they start losing bucks they will vote their pocket books. The East Bay is no more leftwing than Westchester County in NY State.

The really noxious elements are local hangers on, some faculty (mostly in the humanities) and their grad students. The undergrads are like all undergrads everywhere in that there is substantial pressure to posture as young lefties. Often this business evaporates after they leave, get jobs and figure out who is paying for all that nonsense.

It is no worse than any other Ivy class state university (Berkeley had historically was at a ultra high academic level, really better than a lot of the Ivies in some areas), and certainly no worse than Stanford. Berkeley has relaxed standards a bit so it is not quite the place it was in the past — this bring in a certain element. It is not so far gone that this cannot be fixed.

When I was there it was an stunning place intellectually. Something like 36 Nobles on campus (and not just in science), as well as some Wolf prize and Fields medal winners.

Nothing to shake a stick at.

I saw John Searle rip Jacques Deridda apart there, and for those of us that detest all that deconstructionist mumbo-jumbo, it was a joy to behold. (too bad not enough people were listening though).

So I think we can salvage Berkeley. Anyway, best to keep the moonbats concentrated til the revolution, I say.

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:47 pm 137. Mongoose:

Nobles= Nobels )many more would be nobles though)

Nov 30, 2008 - 4:51 pm 138. fred:

As long as our government, academic institutions, the educational system, many of the churches, and most of the media continue to enforce the politically correct code of not calling the terrorists jihadis or naming it as Islamic terrorism, we are in deep, deep trouble. Think about it. We are essentially consigned to the role of dhimmis when there is pressure to not use an accurate description of what went down in Bombay.

We are paying the jizya in blood and treasure by allowing this enemy to continue to wage war against us on every continent.

I comment on this because it is only today that I finally noticed that almost every news network, newspaper, and even some web sites will not not say that these were Islamic terrorists who did the deed.

Just remember: Islam does not mean “peace.” It literally translates from Arabic to mean “submission.” They want us to be like dogs and get on our backs, showing our bellies and necks.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:21 pm 139. Pascal:

Fred. If you ever get an inkling on how to cure all our institutional rot, please don’t keep it to yourself.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:33 pm 140. Bonzo:

Ruby said:
A lame defense? I’ve see people say “nuke all the muslims” on the BC all the time, and I shrug it off as bluster,

———-
All the time? GMAFB.

Bullshit. You’ve never seen that in any significant number here. We might think it but never is that stupidity put in words ‘all the time’.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:37 pm 141. Mongoose:

Pascal: Drying up the government funds for these jerks, better review and regulation of research grants, reigning in NGO’s and fixing how nonprofits handle their funds would go a long way to curing all of this.

When people actually have to earn an honest living perspectives change a bit.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:44 pm 142. trangbang68:

I think the bastions of the affluent may be easier targets than places where people scrap for a living. It seems nearly all the school shootings were in white upper middle class suburbs. My son said they used to joke at his urban gritty high school that if someone pulled a gun all the other students would pull theirs.
I’d like to see Johnny Jihad try to get frisky in Alabama or West Texas. I don’t think anybody would be cowering in fear.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:45 pm 143. Mongoose:

trangbang: Well, they might get a real shock in parts of The Bronx, Brooklyn, Newark or Queens too. You would not believe what some folks there pack.

It may yet come to that.

Nov 30, 2008 - 5:54 pm 144. Benj:

An Aside: Noticed the marine invoked SLAM’s “Men Under Fire” – figure he and other folks at the Club might be interested to know that Marshall’s famous book, which argued that most soldiers lack all any inclination to fire at an enemy even when under fire themselves has been thourougly debunkned. A Brit named Spiller and a American named Fred Smoler did the bulk of the work back in the 80s and early 90s. Marshall’s stuff still gets cited even in the Times and by all accounts he was very good writer but the evidence uncovered about his faked persnal history of combat (and faked stats on the “ratio of fire”)indicate he was a fabulist. BTW – this is not about politics, jsut the facts. There’s a terrific piece about Marshall’s work and how it’s been taken up by Lt. Dave Grossman (who basically suggest video games have turned American kids in the moral eqiv of the SS) by Smoler reprinted in FIRST OF THE MONTH: 2008. If you google Smoler and Marshall, you’ll come up with other stuff that may be of interest…

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:19 pm 145. programmer:

JD,

Thanks. That’s what I was looking for. I never got to meet any of them, but I talked to them in the wee small hours of the dark when they were calling in fire missions to protect the villages they were assigned to. They were Marines (I tried to think of a supernacular word or phrase to describe their actions and courage, but after much thought I realized Marine says it all).

Anyway, what drove this trip in the way back machine was a simple thought. Seems like the Indian government could do worse than look at something like this. Maybe divide large urban areas into grids and assign “CAP” teams to each grid. Just a thought.

As long as I’m using up bandwidth, a joke that make the rounds while we (the artillery units I was associated with) were supporting these guys goes as follows: (Beware! What follows is military humor.)

An NVA regimental commander was called in by his political officer and given a mission to destroy a small village in northern I Corps which had recently come under American influence. The political officer told the NVA CO that there would be no problems because the only armed person in the village was one American soldier who had been sent to protect the village. So….., some time elapsed and the NVA regimental CO came dragging back in looking like death warmed over. His unit had been shot up and beaten until they were no longer combat worthy. The political officer screamed at the CO, “What went wrong?”. The CO responded in a faltering voice, “Bad intelligence.”
”
First, the American soldier was a Marine.”
”
Second, there were two of them.”

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:20 pm 146. Pascal:

Mongoose, those are fine WHATS. But, with all due respect, we need HOWS.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:27 pm 147. whiskey:

Captain Ramen, I was thinking of Italy. How the Camorra and various government agencies moved against the Gypsies first. And now seem to be moving against Muslims in Naples.

The Camorra are of course awful. They make Tony Soprano look like a saint. But they are the only force on the ground in Naples who offer protection from Muslim intimidation and rule. If you are a Napolitean, what else is there? Nothing. The same is occurring on a lesser scale in Britain.

Ray Winstone’s Daily Mail interview shows even rich actors are fed up with the dissolution of Britain into Pakistan North. Along with the social acid of modern post-Christian life. If one does not want to live under Sharia rule in Britain, the only force capable of stopping it is a criminal network. That’s it.

But then the deeply feminized body politic, which is dominated by the concerns of the hard-left cannot fight real enemies, only middle class politicians like say, Gert Wilders or Pym Fortune.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:31 pm 148. Pascal:

And you know what programmer? I think my request is a bigger joke than yours.

Nov 30, 2008 - 6:32 pm 149. NahnCee:

Mongoose – your pink feathery memories of the way we were at Berkeley back then are counterproductive. What have they done for America recently? Besides vote to impeach Bush, try to shut Marine recruiters down, and voting to boycott Chevron to prevent drilling for oil.

Berkeley is NOT cute little moonbats. It’s an enclave of Marxist anti-American traitors feeding off the wealth and heroism of real Americans and – really – I don’t care how many Nobel prize winners they had back then. Now, they are America-haters and we really don’t need them as part of the United States of America.

I repeat, I would love to watch their lazy-assed anti-Americanism come around to bite them in the ass, whether it’s by having their federal funding yanked from their schools and labs, or being unprepared when war comes to the USA.

Besides, have you been paying attention to who gets Nobel prizes awarded to them any more? That is not the status symbol it once was either.

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:02 pm 150. 3Case:

Limpet6

What makes you think that?

I’ve a colleague on a private bbs whose address includes “limpet” and whom I know to be a retired Navy Seal Captain and, as all military types know, Captains in the USN are O-6s. That’s what.

Nov 30, 2008 - 7:29 pm 151. Ruby:

Last week’s attackers reportedly sneaked into the city aboard rubber dinghies launched from a hijacked fishing trawler.

“Mumbai has 15 patrol boats, and none of them are used for patrolling,” said lawyer and former Mumbai policeman Y.P. Singh…

Mumbai has no equivalent of a SWAT team. It took hours to decide to send in the nation’s rapid-response National Security Guards, based in New Delhi…

On reaching Mumbai, the guards were driven to the hostage sites by bus — there were no helicopters — then briefed. By the time they took up positions, many hours had passed….

Government forces lacked hotel floor plans, although the militants seemed to have had them…the commandos lacked an effective command structure or a good communication system…whereas the terrorists reportedly used BlackBerrys and GPS devices to navigate and monitor news coverage…A night counterattack was nixed, reportedly because it was too dark: The attackers had night-vision goggles, the police didn’t…

Nahncee: I don’t care how many Nobel prize winners they had back then. Now, they are America-haters and we really don’t need them as part of the United States of America.

Who needs America-haters from Berkeley when we got people right here in the Belmont Club pointing out to the terrorists which US cities are soft, defenseless targets?

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:16 pm 152. 3Case:

The logical flaw in the idea that the jihadis would attack Berkley is that it is already pacified for them or, put another way, it is inefficient to slaughter the sheep before one has eliminated the guard dogs. On September 11, the sheep portions of the cities struck were not touched…directly, at least…the strikes were at the guard dogs.

Nov 30, 2008 - 8:54 pm 153. fred:

“Who needs America-haters from Berkeley when we got people right here in the Belmont Club pointing out to the terrorists which US cities are soft, defenseless targets?” @ #149

This dramatic sarcasm is unnecessary, since the target in question is of low value, per #150’s response (among other lines of logic laid out here along the way in this discussion). If I were a jihad leader there is no way in hell I would attack Beserkeley or the Bay Area. It achieves nothing. They already behave as dhimmis. They pay the jizya every time they run interference against their own government and its Commander in Chief. They were harassing the U.S. military back in 1965. It’s become a long tradition with them.

Nov 30, 2008 - 9:02 pm 154. RTO Trainer:

My grandfather was an Army Captain during WWII. Infantry. Company Commander (F Co, 2/10th INF). He described to meone time a “buddy team” that worked for him. One had a BAR and the other a Thompson. Said he could track their progress on the battlefield by sound.

Has anyone considered the similarities between this attack and the March 1975 PLO attack on Tel Aviv (Savoy Hotel)?

Nov 30, 2008 - 10:28 pm 155. Dave:

Programmer and JD: They were originally called CACs for Combined Action Company. Later changed to CAP for Combined Action Platoon.

Originated by then LTC William Corson.
Squad of Marines, Platoon of Popular Force (”Puffs”) Vietnamese.

Remarkably successful. We took NO casualties from mines and booby traps in their AOs.

Do recall one night when my 12-week course in Vietnamese (at Ft Hood) paid off by keeping us out of fight with PFs. Local Cong tossed a frag at our tail-end man and left. Puffs took us in where we met their jarheads and quaffed some Ba Moui Ba.

This CAP was Lima Two slightly south of main airfield at Chu Lai.

BTW: One of CAP (unauthorized) tactics was to
make book with VC in order to keep NVA hogtied.

Better go now. Other memories flooding in.

Nov 30, 2008 - 11:17 pm 156. Could Militia Pistoleros Defeat Jihadi Spetnaz? « Civilian Irregular Information Defense Group:

[...] Lynch left this comment over at TBC: I am pretty certain that the whole “buddy pair” concept came from close quarter [...]

Dec 1, 2008 - 12:03 am 157. Bob Murphy:

We had “Ranger buddies” back in the ’60s. I still talk with mine regularly 40+ years later. You bolster each other and you never let your Ranger buddy down. Ever.
Gunners have been operating in pairs for a real long time. Think back to the time of the wheel gun (revolver) which took awhile to reload leaving the shooter defenceless, and even further back to the day of breech loading rifles. Buddies or pairs are natural, not something special.
I think some of the posters are giving way too much credit for the actual shooters in Mumbai. Once inside a place like the Taj Hotel pairs of terrorists would be able to advance against unarmed guests faster than pursuing police would be able to move after them through the ensuing chaos.
Getting the shooters in there with sufficient ammo and grenades is not that difficult, either. We’re talking very soft targets.
It is not difficult to plan such a raid against an unsuspecting target when there is no concern for force protection or extraction of the raiders.
As for the spray and pray approach by some of the terrorists, the AK defaults to full auto from the safety position. It takes deliberate effort to select semi-auto. Good knockabout rifle but uncontrollable in any more than a 3 round burst.
As for pistol vs AK in that hotel situation, the AK wouldn’t have much if any advantage in room to room over a large calibre pistol.
And someone wielding an AK is far more obvious in a crowd than someone with a pistol held close so the AK shooter is a much better target.
Just some random thoughts.
Cheers.

Dec 1, 2008 - 6:03 am 158. billy-g:

Much easier to kill en masse, when the hunted are guaranteed to not be able to shoot back. In those conditions, a small bit of training can look to the untrained eye like a professional ‘trained team’.

How many civilians have ever had a grenade tossed at them and have it explode — that has got to be a shock to the system of the uninitiated. Not only is the initial reaction unpredictable, but so is the explanation of what actually happened. Most people have not experienced gun fire, much less explosions going off around them.

In this day and age, small team tactics are easy to get an understanding of, especially when you have no one firing back at you. A few citizens with guns, producing even ineffective return fire, the surprise element, and the attacks would have likely fallen apart. It’s only under the stress of return fire, that real training and drill is needed to sustain the attack.

Dec 1, 2008 - 6:03 am 159. Bob Murphy:

Quite so, billy-g.

Dec 1, 2008 - 6:06 am 160. programmer:

Bob Murphy states:

As for the spray and pray approach by some of the terrorists, the AK defaults to full auto from the safety position. It takes deliberate effort to select semi-auto. Good knockabout rifle but uncontrollable in any more than a 3 round burst.

programmer politely asks:

Have you ever done any extended firing with an AK?

Dec 1, 2008 - 7:01 am 161. Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent… » Things Heard: e43v1:

[...] and four models for the WoT, hidden costs, their tactics, and tactics [...]

Dec 1, 2008 - 7:10 am 162. Kirk Parker:

Bob M.,

“The AK defaults to full auto from the safety position. It takes deliberate effort to select semi-auto. Good knockabout rifle but uncontrollable in any more than a 3 round burst.”

Does the typical AK variant have a burst mode, or is it just Safe – Auto – Semi?

Dec 1, 2008 - 8:15 am 163. Shivermetimbers:

The real question though is what is to be done about Pakistan.

I understand that there are decent people living there. But, Pakistan has created an internal monster by tolerating terrorist activities and allowing their military and intelligence services to be infiltrated by them.

Dec 1, 2008 - 8:30 am 164. trangbang68:

agree with Billy-g. In any small unit attack, the key is the first moments. If you can effectively return fire or charge at the assault force, it can throw them off their game
and turn the tide. This is true on the battlefield. An advancing unit when ambushed if they simply go to ground get pinned down and suffer increasing casualties as they try to extract themselves, but if they concentrate fire and attack the ambush they have a reasonable chance of breaking the attack.
We have seen this in psycho shootings. Where the perp had free reign , there were lots of casualties, but where someone shot back or charged the shooter mayhem was reduced.
If even a few of the cops at the train station would have returned fire things might have turned out very differently.

Dec 1, 2008 - 8:32 am 165. NLihach:

Another good movie example is Brave Two Zero. There is an early scene which demonstrates very well how a disciplined Squad-sized element can decimate an enemy ten times its number. The tactics they use in the film are pretty accurate.

Dec 1, 2008 - 9:10 am 166. Dave:

Regarding Bob Murphy #155:

The selector mechanism on the AK goes from Safe to Full to Semi. I have never had one default to full from the semi position but I can see where that could happen. Especially since quality control on many is a bit suspect.

There is no “burst control”. However, on “full” the natural short burst is some 3-4 rounds. Later edictions of the Red Army were told to go to full with their AKMs and fire 3-round bursts in the belief this would increase hit probability.

While the AK cannot be considered real controllable, its vertical dispersion was mild compared to the Automatic Rifle version of the M14 which could have up to 5 feet of muzzle climb at 150 yards.

The AK cannot be considered a real good design by objective standards. However, Kalishnikov deserves full credit for having designed something that could be manufactured en masse by Soviet industry and was a HUGE improvement over the PPSH submachineguns.

Best quality in AKs are the Polish copies.

Best modification of the idea is the Finnish Valmet which was successfully chambered for the .308 Winchester. Military version is just a especially cumbersome AK. However, they also sold a sporter version which had superior balance and handling PROVIDED the firer was a tall man with long arms.

Of the original AK47, 40 million were manufactured in the USSR with 10 million being unaccounted for. Then we have the subseq

Dec 1, 2008 - 10:14 am 167. Dave:

Whoops! Then we have the subsequent models such as the AKM and all the non-soviet copies, chief of which was/is the Chinese Type 56 which was the mainstay of the NVA until they got AKMs in 1970.

Point is? World is not gonna run out of AKs anytime soon. They will pop up all over the place for the forseeable future and then some.

Dec 1, 2008 - 10:17 am 168. Justin:

Before I read the most excellent discussion, I must comment that Heat is by far one of the best movies of all time. More to come.

Dec 1, 2008 - 11:29 am 169. LarryD:

“One fires while the other moves, and then they switch.”

Bounding Overwatch, applied to the minimal unit.

Dec 1, 2008 - 3:41 pm 170. Belmont Club » From readers:

[...] reader submits another “buddy pair” video, this time from a professional training [...]

Dec 1, 2008 - 3:58 pm 171. DrJSW:

I am intrigued by the inclusion of the “buddy-team” you-tube clip from the movie HEAT with this article. I have been showing the HEAT video clip to my law enforcement classes for several years.

Initially my emphasis was solely to demonstrate the fundamental need for precision shot placement, which is the core of my training program. In the clip this is demonstrated by the Kilmer and DeNiro characters initially, then subsequently by the Pacino character on Sizemore. But about a year ago the effectiveness of the disciplined DeNiro/Kilmer “buddy-team” against a numerically overwhelming but disorganized police force hit me like a brick between the eyes. Since then I have been emphasizing to everyone I train that we in law enforcement have an urgent need to train our people for rehearsed as well as extemporaneous “buddy-teaming” because whether the offenders are a pair of disaffected teens, armed bank robbers, or jihadist terrorists, the tactics required to counter the threat are EXACTLY THE SAME.

The final point I would make is that unlike the military, law enforcement personnel face a much higher probability that dealing with an active shooter(s) situation will require them to work with a person who is not their dedicated “buddy-team” partner. This requires some commonality of training within and between agencies such that any two officers responding to an active shooter call can rapidly default to the same base rules of engagement and comms and proceed forthwith.

Excellent article. Thanks for posting it.

James S Williams MD
http://www.tacticalanatomy.com

Dec 1, 2008 - 4:07 pm 172. Bob Murphy:

158. programmer:
“Have you ever done any extended firing with an AK?” Yeah, I was scout in a Long Range Recon Patrol Company and the Soviet Order of Battle Instructor. I had an East Germany folding stock AK as a personal weapon for 18 months and put thousands of rounds of Finnish Lapua ammo through it. My ears still ring.
I also owned a Russian one in San Francisco after discharge.
I liked them. Easy to carry, never malfunctioned, barrels and chambers were chromed, 30 round magazines standard equipment.
Bad things were they used to rust and I had to wipe them down with an oily rag 3x a day in Germany in the field.
Their accuracy wasn’t as good at 300m as an M-16 but in my book the 7.62×39 Warsaw Pact round was a better one.
Utter reliability is important to me in a “working” environment.
I noticed in all that shooting with M-16s in Heat that there wasn’t a single malfunction. Good thing they were shooting in a clean environment.
I never shot the later AKs. I think the AK-74 would have been a very good rifle.
As one of the other posters said, the AK was a huge improvement over the PPsh tommy gun.
They look a lot like the WW German MP 43 and 44 but are very different mechanically.

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:30 am 173. Mumbai and self-defense - Page 3 - INGunOwners:

[...] and made Pervez Musharraf’s life a living hell. The Bombay attacks just seemed more like a planned military operation. Belmont Club has some additional thoughts:The reality, according to an article in India

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:31 am 174. Dave:

Bob: Ammo for AKS 74 was a bureaucrats dream.

Took the 7.62 x 39 shell and necked it down to 5.45 mm. Thus you had US 223 ballistics but still had to carry the bulkier cartridge.

I have read comments by General Kalishnikov
of this subject. He was NOT pleased.

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:37 am 175. Tim:

On another note, I think a lot of people have suddenly learned the difference between fighting effectively and running around with a weapon and no clue how to fight with it (or lacking the motivation to do so).

The outcome of what happened in Mumbai did not come as much of a suprise to anyone trained to fight with long arms – i.e., the military. We’re not talking about anything that isn’t taught in Basic Combat Training.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:23 pm 176. Pros and Cons:

[...] really good observation on the attacks, posted here at Belmont Club. A few relevant snippets, though the whole thing is great, and really pretty short (shouldn’t [...]

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:09 am 177. Shaan:

I had mentioned in my comment (comment no 49), that US counter terrorism training could have been used by the Pakistani military to train the terrorists in the buddy pair tactics.
http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/11/29/a-marine-officer-on-the-mumbai-tactics/#comment-49

Here is an important personality who shares my view – David J. Kilcullen, Special Advisor for Counterinsurgency to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
http://www.securitymanagement.com/news/mumbai-terrorists-must-have-had-commando-training-says-counterinsurgency-expert-004963

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:07 am 178. Kalroy:

Late Post:

Videogames. Recently there was some modest success with “Army of Two” whose entire premise was “Buddy System” combat.

Kalroy

Dec 18, 2008 - 1:30 pm

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