The number of men who terrorized Mumbai was surprisingly small. Reuters reports that there may have been as few as ten gunmen, though I personally believe that the number was much larger when their support cells are taken into account.
Indian officials have said most, perhaps all, of the 10 attackers who held Mumbai hostage with frenzied attacks using assault rifles and grenades came from Pakistan, a Muslim nation carved out of Hindu-majority India in 1947.
Sebastian D’Souza describes how the gunmen walked through the Mumbai train station platform like a pack of raptors through a kindergarten outing. The photographer stalked the gunmen, dodging among the train carriages photographing them covertly and watched, horrified, as the “teenage gunmen” dealt out death like lollipops.
Sebastian D’Souza hears the gunfire at Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus from his office across the street at the Mumbai Mirror tabloid. He follows the sound through the sprawling station, slipping unseen through parked trains. When he first catches sight of the young men, he doesn’t realize they are the gunmen. They look so innocent. Then he sees them shooting. “They were firing from their hips. Very professional. Very cool,” says D’Souza, the newspaper’s photo editor. For more than 45 minutes he follows as they move from platform to platform shooting and throwing grenades. Often, D’Souza isn’t even 30 feet away. The few police at the station are either dead, in hiding or had long fled.
The routine machinery of the great city fed more victims into the maw. Trains filled with new passengers disgorged yet more victims into the line of fire. Later D’Souza would reflect upon the blind panic which paralyzed the beat cops. Perhaps we shouldnt be too hard on these Mumbai flatfeet. They had probably never encountered something that shot back with an automatic weapon. In its own way the Mumbai event underlines what the NRA has been saying for years. Guns don’t shoot themselves. People are needed to pull the trigger. Without anyone willing to open fire, the police pistols which stayed in their owner’s holsters might as well have been bouquets of flowers.
But what angered Mr D’Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. “There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything,” he said. “At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!’ but they just didn’t shoot back. … ‘I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.’”
Most people will naturally flee from danger. Only time, training and conditioning — a form of brainwashing — can reliably forge bodies of men who will instinctively do the unnatural. Re-read the embedded journalist’s accounts of events in Iraq and note the descriptions of soldiers or Marines who deliberately move toward the sound of firing or as it was more quaintly put in the old days, “to march to the sound of the guns”. During the First World War thousands of men would rise out the trenches to walk into machine-gun fire. The ordinary crowd at a shopping mall simply can’t be expected to do that. Maybe the most important effect of the Second Amendment is that it it implants the germ of the idea that resistance is a viable option. It’s a germ which must be nurtured by a little training. The gun is an easy thing to find. It’s is the making of a shooter which is harder.
When whole populations come under siege, as is the case in Israel, the unnatural instinct to resist eventually becomes part of the culture. The instinct to fire back supervenes over the natural inclination to flee. My guess is that the transformation will come more easily to the Third World than to civilized Western societies. The only time I saw a civilian crowd run towards gunfire was in the vast Tondo Foreshore slum, an unimaginably squalid place where life was cheap. Some bankrobbers had fled into the slums and were pursued by cops with automatic weapons. I can never forget how the kids climbed poles to get a better view of the action and a play-by-play was passed back among the onlookers. But then this was a population used to gang violence and hard living. Among the better class of people, the transformation takes a little longer. In Mumbai, once over the initial shock, the hotel staff at the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi manfully helped the guests to escape and evade, some losing their lives or coming to hurt in the process.
Prashant Mangeshikar, a guest, said that a hotel worker, identified only as Mr Rajan, had put himself between one of the gunmen and Mr Mangeshikar, his wife and two daughters.
“The man in front of my wife shielded us,” Mr Mangeshikar said. “He was a maintenance section staff member. He took the bullets.” For the next 12 hours, before Mr Rajan was finally taken out of the hotel, guests battled to stop the bleeding from a gaping bullet wound in his abdomen. It is not known if he lived.
Eventually the worm turns. But in the golden hour of the first shock, in Mumbai as over American skies on 9/11, evil will have its own way. One day, when Mr Rajan enters his Valhalla, his first act may be tell Todd Beamer what “let’s roll!” is in Hindi.
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67 Comments
1. Doug Miller:“I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.”
Someone from the mass media I can finally respect.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:07 pm 2. Josh:They did not fire … did they report?
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:13 pm 3. Contrarian:This guy should get the Pulitizer for news photography. The terrorist in the photo is the one that was captured alive according to the Times of India. His partner was killed and he suffered a gun shot wound to his hand allowing for his capture. He is apparently spilling the beans on support from Mumbai local muslims, naming five who provided various forms of logistical support. Here is the link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_locals_helped_us_terrorist_tells_cops/articleshow/3774106.cms
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:14 pm 4. twobyfour:@ 3. Contrarian:
This guy should get the Pulitizer for news photography.
He’ll never get it, it is nowadays awarded for cowardice and con-job excellence, and the proper “objective” detachment.
So I am not sure he’d even want it. He seem to be honest to god reporter as god intended them and a human being too, as opposed to modern journalists that used to be human.
The police not shooting back aspect is really puzzling.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:23 pm 5. Mike Sylwester:If Indian citizens maintain their civic discipline and do not indulge themselves in retaliatory massacres against their fellow citizens who are Moslems but were not involved in these attacks, then their careful restraint will be a praise-worthy achievement. India should respond to these attacks as a democratic country that protects the legal rights of its own Moslem minorities.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:25 pm 6. Richie:All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good people not to do anything.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:33 pm 7. Contrarian:TwobyFour, you are probably right, but nevertheless, he certainly deserves the recognition. The station cops were probably poorly trained and poorly paid. As Richard says in his essay, trained police and soldiers march toward the battle, untrained run away.
The great lesson we can all learn from this attack is the broad vulnerability of cities everywhere. I think those who planned this are extremely pleased with the results and we can expect to see variations on the theme in the coming year. That 10 terrorists can wreak such death and terror over three days in a major city should give us pause.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:34 pm 8. ledger:I agree but the total number was still quite small.
The real problem, as Wretchard has noted before, is this style of terror operation is easy to duplicated and was very successful. Ten to twelve people killed almost 200 people, wounded 350 more, and caused tremendous economic damage including burning famous hotels.
This operation must be taken very seriously and strong punitive actions should be taken. All of terror enablers should be punished.
That would range from those who transported the terrorists, gave them plans and weapons, those who gave them communication implements (cell phones, satellite phones, web sites and so on), those who gave them money or provided bank accounts or bank credit cards, those who sheltered and cheered them on.
The Indian authorities have the bodies and know who they their names. The authorities should start to question the family members and associates.
There are computers and cell phones to look at. This job took quite a lot of abettors. They are not invisible. They can be found. The quicker the better.
The time to investigate the chain of perpetrators is of the quintessence.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:42 pm 9. Leon:Civic discipline, legal rights… Yeah, maybe…
Pakistan expelled most of its hindu population long ago… India didn’t do the same.
Now one of the (Pakistani) terrorists captured is saying that “Mumbai locals helped us”. What are these locals, muslims or hindus? Wanna bet?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_locals_helped_us_terrorist_tells_cops/articleshow/3774106.cms
Jihadists have an advantage over us, they don’t care about democracy or minorities, they don’t care about human rights, they are adaptable in their operations, they are not afraid to do whatever it takes, and they keep their eyes clearly on the objective (kill infidels, cause terror in infidel lands, expand Dar-al-Islam).
While we worry about their well-being, their sensibilities and their legal rights.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:43 pm 10. Mike Sylwester:The radical Moslems in Pakistan are being decimated by the Pakistan government. The radical Moslems control less and less territory. They have fewer, smaller, more vulnerable safe havens. These bombings of tourist hotels are the last gasps of the radical Moselm movement in Pakistan.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:46 pm 11. Ruby:Mike Sylvester, they’ve been saying “last gasps” for 14 centuries. The revivalist nutters will always be able to crank it back up again.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:49 pm 12. Gordon:People talk about ‘flight or fight’ but the actual sequence is freeze-flee-then fight if cornered. In the latter event the animal or person will commonly fight fiercely and even perhaps to the death.
Yes, the policemen were indeed frozen, unable to think rationally or take action because they’d had no prior training or experience like this. Thus, their normal mammalian mid-brain instincts took over. Probably most people are like this although some, like the photographer, are different as in everything else.
With training and especially a group response, this can indeed be overcome. As mentioned above, Marines are trained to move toward the threat. A friend was a Marine infantryman in Viet Nam and told me later how inwardly surprised he was that, at their first ambush in the bush, they all did indeed leave the trail as trained and charge the enemy. He also said the Viet Cong were so stunned that they were all killed where they stood. They, of course, expected the Marines to either hunker down or flee.
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:52 pm 13. Contrarian:Well, this attack is a tactical victory for Al Qaida and the jihadist wing of the Pak government. And it may have strategic implications. The NY Times is reporting that the Pak military may shift forces from the western border east to the Indian boder, thus undermining a key element of US policy objectives in the Afghan war. Here is the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/world/asia/30pstan.html?ref=world
Nov 29, 2008 - 5:54 pm 14. twobyfour:@ 11
Conditions for forgiveness and participation were stated in the other thread. Make one (1) post only, stating your new nick (anything else than ruby and red will do).
Then f**k off for a week.
This is the last friendly warning.
—————————
To all, please ignore completely any post from ruby/ruby red/ruby redinger until the above conditions are fulfilled. Thx,
2×4
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:00 pm 15. Terry:“”1. Doug Miller:
“I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.”
Someone from the mass media I can finally respect.”"
Sorry Doug, but I don’t swallow his posturing as easily as you do.
Like most journalists, D’Souza would probably be the first to play judge, jury and executioner if the police opened fire and accidentally hit civilians (even though such a method would have been the best course of action).
There is another thing to consider:
D’Souza himself never did anything to stop the carnage.
Sure, he got pictures and a name for himself (his 15 minutes of fame);
Where does he get the self-righteous arrogance to question why nobody ELSE stopped them.
“He didn’t have a gun” is an excuse; it does not change the FACT that he did NOTHING to stop it.
And it does not change the fact that it is people like him who have contributed the most to demonizing and denigrating those who might have otherwise stopped it.
If you want to blame someone, start with the faux-outraged, finger-wagging crowd beginning with D’Souza.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:02 pm 16. whiskey:I am more pessimistic and paradoxically, sanguine about what will happen.
First, yes this attack which now seems to have been around 20-40 attackers WILL be replicated. The police cannot stop it, even better trained ones. Though training is important. Even an armed populace is not a guarantee against this type of attack, as the various bulldozer-gunmen rampages in Israel give proof.
No, the only EFFECTIVE way to combat this is through ethnic-religious cleansing. Eventually, that will happen. In India, either through communal violence as retaliation, or through government purges. If there is no support network, the attacks become much more difficult to stage, and thus well trained police and an armed populace can deal with them.
Second, Modern Western Society depends on cooperation and non-violence. People don’t kill each other in the street over cabs. But non-Western nations filled with polygamist violence DO in fact kill people over trivial matters. Have ENOUGH of the attacks and Western tolerance, “diversity” and commitment to open-ness will disappear, and in it’s place a fairly Calvinist attitude towards people who don’t look or act or seem like the majority will make it’s re-appearance. Along with a great heaping dose of personal violence at the ready. These are the fruits of globalism, that the mores of the slums of the great Third World sinkholes become the lowest common denominator, at least for violence. Since there will be enough of it spread around.
We will also see more poverty and less urbanism. The great Western cities are large wealth generators, particularly LA, NYC, Chicago, etc. Enough violence in those areas and we will see a return to global sprawl, if nothing else it will deter these types of attacks. More private cars, less mass transit. Terrorism killing the Green Fantasy right dead.
The social changes, i.e. a West under virtual siege by armed non-Western, Muslim gunmen, empowered by PC and Multiculturalism, are obvious. Women, gays, the “creative class” and the various elites lose power, and soldiers, marines, cops, armed men of all types, and the few women willing to become shooters gain power. If the dominant issue is “who can protect me and mine?” then for both men and women the community activist or important Harvard Lawyer is less attractive than the seasoned Marine combat vet with a personal firearm concealed (lawfully) upon his person.
Needless to say, Obama who ran on hope, change, Unicorns and Rainbows now has to deal with an America shocked at bodies trundled out of Bombay after a mass casualty Muslim assault. Since he is on record in his autobiography as choosing to stand with Muslims over America in the case of terrorism, he has to be more Catholic than the Pope when the terrorists hit here as they do. Otherwise Republicans will quote his own words he wrote himself against him and openly argue that he is on the side of the enemy.
This tactic makes it clear. There is only a time for choosing sides and survival. Nothing else.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:05 pm 17. twobyfour:@ 15. Terry
“At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!’ but they just didn’t shoot back. … ‘I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.’”
Now, Terry, tell us what else would you do, that SOMETHING, if you were in his place?
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:11 pm 18. Ruby:Gordon: A friend was a Marine infantryman in Viet Nam and told me later how inwardly surprised he was that, at their first ambush in the bush, they all did indeed leave the trail as trained and charge the enemy.
That training was born in blood and fire in places like Iwo Jima and Okinawa, but the Vietnamese didn’t have a Bushido code of bravery to match them. And today our Marines, honed by that long fighting tradition, are up against walking anti-personnel mines and non-uniformed guys who shoot at them from inside schools, mosques, and hospitals occupied by human shields while the media screams the Marines can’t shoot back during the month of Ramalamadingdong because it will inflame the Iraqi “Street.” It’s almost dishonorable to send our Marines in to clean up that trash, it’s just like permanent latrine duty.
And 2 by 4, what the heck are you rambling about now?
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:16 pm 19. twobyfour:@ #18
FW from Thread: Symphony of Blood
163. twobyfour:
Troll, there is only one thing you can do to redeem yourself and be forgiven.
Okay, one thing means a package…
You tell us your new nick. Has to be different than any variation on the troll name. Then you would take a week long sabbatical from posting on BC. You promise that you will never again troll not only here, but anywhere. When you return, you will be allowed to speak your mind, but only as you, not as imaginary entities. This is pending on general agreement here with the package and Richard’s forgiveness, ultimately.
Don’t try to weasel out of it, else I can tell you that my local voodoo priestess has definitely her mojo workin.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:22 pm 20. wretchard:No, the only EFFECTIVE way to combat this is through ethnic-religious cleansing.
I don’t think ethnic cleansing is the answer. It wasn’t necessary in Iraq. What was necessary was to wage ideological warfare against extremism and protect those who fought against it, whether Sunni or Shi’a. I am fairly sure that in this case there Muslims in Mumbai who are afraid to come forward with what they know because of a well-founded dread of reprisal. Even in Israel, much of the Arab population is held in the involuntary servitude of fear of reprisal from fellow Arabs.
Now if a Muslim knows he will be given a hard time, innocent or guilty, then what is his incentive for coming forward? When being innocent or guilty makes no difference, may as well be guilty. Only by increasing the contrast between innocence and guilt can innocence be made to pay off. The first step in Iraq was to assure all those Sunnis who were willing to turn on al-Qaeda that they would be protected. General Pershing put it bluntly nearly a hundred years ago. Nothing too good for my friends; nothing too bad for my enemy. Every law-abiding, decent Muslim should be treated like a king. Every terrorist who acts in the name of Allah should be hunted down.
Political correctness acts to reduce the contrast by portraying terrorists as innocent Muslims acting out of a legitimate sense of grievance. The PC people want us to believe there is no innocence or guilt. Or that all the guilty are innocent. They aid and abet the process whereby the evil hide behind women and children. To engage in ethnic cleansing means to accept the clouding of our minds. Why is it so hard to call a murderer a murderer? Why is it so hard to label a photograph of a man with an AK-47 as as a “gunman” rather than an “alleged gunman”? Because of all the noise PC is pouring into the signal. Our first task isn’t ethnic cleansing but mental hygiene. We should clear out our minds of this leftist claptrap because if we don’t then the bad guys are going to multiply like rats in the sewers and finally we will find ourselves torching the whole city to be rid of the plague. Mental cleansing. Not ethnic cleansing.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:25 pm 21. Mike Sylwester:In November 1997, six radical Moslems massacred 63 people, mostly tourists, at the Luxor archeological site in Egypt. That incident marked the end of active radical Moslem movement in Egypt.
[quote]
The massacre, however, marked a decisive drop in Islamist terrorists’ fortunes in Egypt by turning Egyptian public opinion overwhelmingly against them. Organizers and supporters of the attack reacted with denial. The day after the attack, Islamic Group leader Rifai Taha claimed the attackers intended only to take the tourists hostage ….
The terrorist groups lost the population’s support and had nowhere to seek refuge or establish bases of operations in Egypt. Although 1,200 people, many of them foreign visitors or residents but also many hundreds of Egyptians themselves, were killed by terrorist attacks in the preceding years, terrorist activity in Egypt almost completely ceased in the several years following the Luxor attacks.
[unquote]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1997_Luxor_massacre
In recent years similar consequences for radical Moslems followed massacres of tourists in Indonesia and Morocco.
Even though last week’s massacre happened in India, the economic consequences will be suffered mostly by Pakistan. Investment and tourism in Pakistan will fall from their already low levels, while India will continue to prosper.
Pakistan now must and will crush its active radical Moslem movement mercilessly and completely. The job will be done in about one year. Pakistan will do in 2009 what Egypt did in 1998.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:31 pm 22. twobyfour:@ 20. Richard
Agreed. A tough one proposition with a tight timeline. Because getting a rid of PC is not that easy and events may get ahead before all said and done.
But as a starting point there may be nothing better. It is truly the confusion brought by PC that is the primary killer of us, on the mental landscape.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:35 pm 23. Ruby:Wretchard, your comment above is, as usual, worthy of being a topic in its own right. You rightly criticize the leftist impulse of muddying the difference between the good and the evil, but on the other side you say we need to treat the law-abiding decent Muslim as a king. Not in this country. It is enough to treat them as American citizens on the same level with everyone else. No special treatment. No reparations. Then there won’t be resentment on the non-Muslim side, nor will there be cause for American Muslims to enlist with the jihadis, unless they are of a socialist bent with an entitlement mentality that expects to be treated as a king.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:41 pm 24. twobyfour:@ 21. Mike Sylwester
Pakistan now must and will crush its active radical Moslem movement mercilessly and completely. The job will be done in about one year. Pakistan will do in 2009 what Egypt did in 1998.
Expressing my doubts. Egypt is a more or less homogenous culturally and ethnically (even with its Coptic minority). Pakiland is a mess. ISI is so wormed through by jihadist elements that to untangle it would be a miracle, and let’s not forget that the PM’s lifespan is mostly determined by ISI’s jihad wing.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:43 pm 25. rkb:It’s telling that Mike Sylwester is more concerned about the possibility of harsh feelings towards Muslims in India than he is for the actual dead who suffered at Muslim hands.
It would be laughable were that not the kneejerk response of far too many who sit comfortably away from death and the vicious hatred that spews it about.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:45 pm 26. twobyfour:@ 25. rkb
Noticed that too, eh?
It is the atheist principle of invisibility: The dead do not exist anymore, so they are of no concern.
Nov 29, 2008 - 6:54 pm 27. Contrarian:Another major difference with the Egyptian scenario is that Egypt was not facing a powerful enemy on it’s border. The Paks not only have India on their border, they have a bitter hatred for the Hindus dating from partition and the loss, in their eyes, of Kashmir to a non-muslim state.
A lot depends on how the Indian government reacts. The ruling Congress party has been perceived by many Indians as weak on terrorism. Their main opponent is the hindu nationalist party, the BJP. If the Congress party appears to placate the Paks, then the BJP will eat their lunch in the next election. So Congress must be aggressive or lose. Not a good recipe for turning the other cheek so to speak.
The Paks, if faced with increased threat levels on their Indian border, will shift their military forces away from the Tribal Areas, undermining our (the US) goal of having the Paks actively suppress Taliban-Al Qaida domination along the Afghani border. If Zardari, the Pak president, does not go along, the ISI will do to him what they did to his wife and father-in-law.
This may in fact be what the objective was in carrying out this attack in Mumbai. Destabilize the developing rapprochement between the Paks and Indians, pull the Pak military away from the Territories and bring down Zardari’s government. Time will tell if it is successful.
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:03 pm 28. More on the Bombay/Mumbai Terrorists: “Economy of Force” at Belmont Club at Traction Control:[...] Read the whole thing . [...]
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:07 pm 29. Fletcher Christian:I hope Mr. Rajan has an honour guard to precede him into Valhalla. A billion or so should do.
Islam and its adherents have no place at all on an Earth that has problems only soluble by technology, and that is around 80% non-Muslim. They are not welcome, haven’t been for 1350 years, and should be ejected – forcibly, and permanently. As permanently as were the worshippers of Baal that used to live in what was then Carthage.
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:07 pm 30. Herb:Right or wrong the Hindu street will do what they think necessary.
Pakistan and India will do likewise.
That’s the stage this will play out on.
We can only hope that the Hundu street will develop Tolerance.
Any takers?
This is two steps from really ugly.
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:10 pm 31. NahnCee:“The radical Moslems in Pakistan are being decimated by the Pakistan government. The radical Moslems control less and less territory. They have fewer, smaller, more vulnerable safe havens. These bombings of tourist hotels are the last gasps of the radical Moselm movement in Pakistan.”
Seems to me this is a pretty potent last gasp. But if they have to recruit bodies from Britain, maybe you’re right that their ranks have been decimated.
Couple of things bother me: what did the terrorists expect to achieve? Demanding the release of their little terrorist buddies seems like an after-thought.
I don’t believe there were only ten of them, but why would the Indian government lie?
The captured kid acted initially like he thought he would survive, live to fight another day. Maybe it was *not* set up as a suicide run, that they were told they’d be in and out, or a James Bondian helicopter would swoop in and rescue them, or some dumb damned thing. In which case, I wonder how many billion dollars they were promised each to do it.
We’re surprised that the Indian cops froze. But why should we be? We’re Americans and we lead the world in everything including training, responsiveness and leadership. We can see from the hero’s in cummerbunds who led hotel guests to safety that individual Indians are brave, too, but they were leading AWAY from the gunmen, not toward them. We forget that other countries, no matter how sophisticated they may be technologically, simply aren’t as good as we are at ANYthing (including Russia, Mike).
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:26 pm 32. whiskey:Wretchard — you and I both agree that reprisals and ethnic-religious cleansing is a horrible thing that would be best avoided if it could.
But … it cannot. IT WILL HAPPEN. If there are no Muslims in India, and none tolerated to enter, the sea the fish swim in will be dried up. Sooner or later this will happen.
As you note, extremists always have the violence advantage. This is due to the tribalistic, polygamist nature of Islam which resembles that of 19th Century Mormons (also prone to schismatic violence and violence against others). Your prescription ONLY WORKS when there are ONLY Muslims.
When there are Muslims mixed in with non-Muslims, this does not work, any more than Mormons and non-Mormons could work. After the Civil War the Union forces under Republican Presidents made clear to the Latter Day Saints that any repeats of their massacres of non-Mormons would precipitate Union forces into massacres of the Mormons, backed by a robust military. Eventually, Mormons had to ditch polygamy for admission into the Union.
Ethnic — religious cleansing is the only way to deal with Muslims inside a non-Muslim society. Because the hard men desiring violence will always have sway, and treating Muslims like “kings” makes them think they SHOULD rule. Excessive deference and lack of realistic retaliation to Muslims who support Jihad even passively (by not openly opposing it) creates a dynamic where there is no check on Jihad.
ONLY when Muslims are more afraid of being massacred for someone not turning in a Jihadist will the support dry up.
I am afraid you don’t understand what happened in either Iraq or Bombay. In Iraq AQI was a direct threat to existing tribal structures, that killed locals and provided no huge military advantages. There were no non-Muslims. Only direct self-interest. PC played no role. In Bombay Muslims actively supported Jihad because they think JIHAD WILL WIN, and let them rule non-Muslims as a master over slaves.
No Mormons suddenly had “revelations” that polygamy was bad. They wanted instead to avoid being ruled by the Union forces in a military occupation. Betting on peace, love, understanding is like waiting for unicorns. Healthy fear of the majority and a clear understanding of the limits would be best but sadly that will never happen.
Instead good fences will make good neighbors by the ugly but proven means of ethnic-religious cleansing. It’s quite clear that India cannot live with the Muslims inside it. I don’t like this, clearly using government force to punish those suspected of aiding Jihad would have been better. But that did not happen and India must take Muslims as they find them.
Which is a violent set of polygamists.
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:44 pm 33. Leon:I don’t believe there were only ten of them, but why would the Indian government lie?
Because some of them escaped.
Nov 29, 2008 - 7:49 pm 34. cjm:in fact there was ethnic separation in iraq; and many sunnis fled the country — voluntary cleansing.
Nov 29, 2008 - 8:11 pm 35. narciso:That example of Luxor doesn’t reassure me too much. Gamaa Islamiya rapidly became incorporated into AQ the following years, and many of the operation planners like Mustafa Atef (Abu Haf al Masri)Seyf al Adel
Nov 29, 2008 - 8:37 pm 36. Mike Sylwester:(Colonel Mohammed Mokkawi) were of that pattern. This is very old school terrorism, reminiscent of nothing more than Munich and the Lot operations. Which don’t take as much
planning as a 9/11, a Madrid, the TLondon tube bombing.
Contrarian:
“Another major difference with the Egyptian scenario is that Egypt was not facing a powerful enemy on it’s border. …. The Paks, if faced with increased threat levels on their Indian border, will shift their military forces away from the Tribal Areas …. ”
———-
Egypt was facing Israel on its border.
So far, it looks like India will not blame the Pakistan government for the Mumbai attacks, and it looks like Indian Moslems will not be subjected to collective punishment.
If the Pakistan Government continues to crush the radical Moslems in Pakistan, then India will not cause problems.
Pakistan will continue to be the home of fundamentalist Moslems, but the terrorist fantasy will evaporate. The young generation of Moslems has watched Islamist terrorists fail for two decades. Israel, the USA and now India have not been intimidated at all.
The mullahs have been discredited, because they preached that terror would succeed. Young people now understand they need to go to school and learn from real teachers and get real educations and then real jobs.
I live in Hackensack, New Jersey, and the local newspaper interviewed some local Indian and Pakistani immigrants about last week’s events in Mumbai. One of the interviewed immigrants called the attackers “a bunch of nerds.” Thus the mullahs and their terrorist disciples are increasingly dismissed by the young generation as socially retarded losers.
Nov 29, 2008 - 8:45 pm 37. Brock:whiskey, not all Muslims are like the attackers on 9/11 or now in Mumbai. Most aren’t. We have sizable Muslim populations in the USA and India without regular attacks of this nature, any more than we suffer from regular attacks by Mormons any more. The Muslims in the EU would be far more integrated if the EU could manage to employ its immigrants, but even so attacks are rare there.
There may be a “cleansing” but it will be within Islam. A smallish but violent sect will be destroyed. We’re simply not going to start killing the 1 billion or so Muslims around the world just to get the several thousand who prefer death to the modern world. That’s just stupid. Smart is tougher and multi-factorial, but we did it in Iraq. It can be done anywhere.
And what’s with you and polygamy? That’s an odd fixation. The fix to that is easy – allow women to have jobs and allow migration within a country or region. A woman who can move about the country and support herself isn’t going to end up wife #3 unless she wants that, and women who do want that are rare. The problem will self correct.
Nov 29, 2008 - 9:01 pm 38. Mike Sylwester:narciso:
“That example of Luxor doesn’t reassure me too much. Gamaa Islamiya rapidly became incorporated into AQ the following years, and many of the operation planners like Mustafa Atef (Abu Haf al Masri)Seyf al Adel
(Colonel Mohammed Mokkawi) were of that pattern.”
=========
Some radicals fled from Egypt to Afghanistan in 1998. Then they fled from Afghanistan to Pakistan in 2001. Now they will have to flee from Pakistan to new refuges — perhaps Somalia.
Once the Iraqi Sunni sheikhs decided to exterminate Al Qaeda in Iraq, the extermination was completed in about a year. Hundreds of Al Qaeda members were literally stabbed in the back. Those who didn’t flee from Iraq were hunted down and murdered mercilessly. The same process is already underway in Pakistan. The USA has been collaborating with its Predator missile strikes, which are guided by superb information.
Nov 29, 2008 - 9:04 pm 39. twobyfour:@ 38. Mike Sylwester
Hundreds of Al Qaeda members were literally stabbed in the back. Those who didn’t flee from Iraq were hunted down and murdered mercilessly.
Thai s a funny way to put it. Using words with negative connotation describing a positive outcome.
It’s as if you are ambivalent about it and sorry that no one read them their miranda rights before sanction.
I would use simply “killed off”, because in my view it was an act of self-defense and self-reservation.
Nov 29, 2008 - 9:58 pm 40. Ruby:Whiskey: When there are Muslims mixed in with non-Muslims, this does not work, any more than Mormons and non-Mormons could work.
Utah is on the cusp of being majority non-Mormon. It works okay. Someday the United States will no longer be majority Protestant. The flag will still wave.
After the Civil War the Union forces under Republican Presidents made clear to the Latter Day Saints that any repeats of their massacres of non-Mormons would precipitate Union forces into massacres of the Mormons, backed by a robust military.
Before the Civil War even Democrats like Stephen Douglas (of the Lincoln-Douglas debates) had to denounce polygamy to save the states’ rights defense of slavery. After the Civil War the transcontinental railroad brought large numbers of “gentiles” into Utah, which was the real cause of the steady decline of Mormon autonomy there.
Nov 29, 2008 - 9:59 pm 41. twobyfour:Ignore the Ruby troll until it properly repents.
Directions follow:
——————
FW from Thread: Symphony of Blood
163. twobyfour:
Troll, there is only one thing you can do to redeem yourself and be forgiven.
Okay, one thing means a package…
You tell us your new nick. Has to be different than any variation on the troll name. Then you would take a week long sabbatical from posting on BC. You promise that you will never again troll not only here, but anywhere. When you return, you will be allowed to speak your mind, but only as you, not as imaginary entities. This is pending on general agreement here with the package and Richard’s forgiveness, ultimately.
Nov 29, 2008 - 10:23 pm 42. Pat Patterson:One of the things I noticed on one of the videos from DNA was two policemen trying to shoot into the Taj Mahal Hotel with WWII vintage Enfields. And both times they tried to fire it was obvious the rifles had jammed and the policemen might have well been throwing rocks at the upper floors.
Nov 29, 2008 - 10:31 pm 43. Contrarian:36. Mike Sylwester:
“Egypt was facing Israel on its border. ”
Granted, but the Muslim Brotherhood was not an arm of Israel. My point really is that because the jihadis in Egypt were suppressed by the Egyptian government, one cannot simply extend that example to the Pak-India situation. Significant parts of the Pak government, especially the ISI, is deeply involved as patrons of jihadist organizations that threaten India’s vital national interests.
It is far to early to say what the Indian government will do. This will unfold over the next several weeks. Because of the political situation in India, the Congress party is between the proverbial rock and a hard place. As I suggested previously, if they placate the Paks, the BJP will likely defeat them in the next national election. If they become aggressive towards Pakistan, then the Paks will act accordingly, which undermines our policy goals in the region.
Nov 29, 2008 - 11:11 pm 44. Beverly:Military men could probably give us the statistics, but low firing rates have always been a problem for commanders, even in regular armies. You might have as few as 8% or 10% of your men actually firing their guns in an assault: 17% in some battles has been considered good.
Confederate soldiers in the Civil War were more effective because most of them were accustomed to handling and firing guns at living targets (game). The Yankees, many of them, were city boys who didn’t have that experience, and were hampered by the type of inhibition that the Indian police showed. Hence, lower firing rates and less effectiveness in the Union army. (Worse generals, too, but that’s another factor!)
I wonder how much practice shooting the Indian cops get?
Nov 29, 2008 - 11:13 pm 45. ledger:Eagle Speak has a nice map of the possible route taken by the terrorists. Some of the reports are conflicting but here is what Eaglespeak found out:
“…India’s intelligence services had delivered at least three precise warnings that a major terrorist attack on Mumbai was imminent… On November 18, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) intercepted a satellite phone conversation, in which a so-far unidentified caller notified his handlers that he was heading for Mumbai along with a certain cargo.”
“RAW analysts, however, rapidly determined that the apparently innocuous call was made to a Lahore phone number known to be used by the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s main military commander for operations targeting India, who is known only by the code-names ‘Muzammil’ and ‘Abu Hurrera.’ Mumbai Police investigators have determined that the call was made from a satellite phone that was eventually found abandoned on the Porbandar-based fishing boat Kuber, hijacked by the terrorists mid-ocean, most likely on November 19. The satellite phone also contains records of several other calls to Lashkar handlers in Pakistan. Government sources said the RAW warning sparked a full-scale hunt for the merchant ship on which the terrorists had sailed from Karachi. The hunt was led by the Indian Navy and the Coast Guard. India’s coastal defence forces used global positioning system coordinates from the intercepted call to locate the general area in which the ship was located…Based on the testimony of arrested Lashkar terrorist Ajmal Amir Kamal, investigators believe the terrorists hijacked the Kuber in order to avoid detection after they saw Indian patrols closing in on the area. Kamal, the sources said, has told investigators that some of the terrorists tied red ceremonial threads on their wrists to appear like Indian fishermen.”
“Mumbai Police sources said, the continuing interrogation of arrested Lashkar terrorist Ajmal Amir Kamal had allowed them to put together a coherent account of the mechanics of the assault. Kamal has claimed that the Lashkar assault team, which trained in boat-handling tactics at the Mangla Dam reservoir on the border between Pakistan’s Punjab province and Pakistan-administered Kashmir, was trained to locate their targets on a high-resolution satellite map. If Kamal’s account proves to be correct, it would suggest there was no local support team in place to guide the attack — a decision that may have been made in order to ensure secrecy.”
[Fate of crew]
“The militants killed four members of the crew and threw their bodies into the water soon after taking control of the vehicle but kept the captain alive so that he could help them in navigation until reaching Mumbai’s shores where they slit his throat, the sources said. “The officials have recovered four bodies of fishermen suspected to be crew of ‘Kuber’ from high seas, while the body of its captain was found hand from the boat seized by Mumbai Coast Guard,” they added. The captain’s hands were tied behind his back. “Terrorists departed from some locations in Pakistan by vessel ‘M V Alpha’. We don’t know the exact locations from where they started their journey from that country but the route of the trawler started from Pakistan,” Customs officials…”
See: Eaglespeak
Nov 29, 2008 - 11:22 pm 46. NahnCee:http://www.eaglespeak.us/2008/11/terrorism-from-sea-mumbai-terrorists.html
I don’t believe there were only ten of them, but why would the Indian government lie?
Because some of them escaped.
Ohhhhhh, good observation. To where?
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:03 am 47. USpace:Let’s hope India leads a more successful investigation than the USA’s pathetic investigation on 9/11. They should of arrested 50+ people I imagine. I bet India will pin it on at least some terrorist sympathizers, as long as they aren’t Muslims. We all know that it is the Hindus who want to kill all the Jews. In NY these scum-terrorist monkeys would have been blown away by the NYPD long before they killed 10 people probably.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
call yourself a policeman
if you are afraid of thugs
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:14 am 48. tehag:and refuse to put them down
.
I hope I never, ever have to face anything as fractionally dangerous as this. I’m not brave. I don’t think fast. But:
“I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.”
Didn’t the police officer next to him have one? Couldn’t he have asked to borrow it?
A quote from another context: “You can’t be brave at your policeman’s expense.”
tehag
Nov 30, 2008 - 5:27 am 49. OldSalt:The police not shooting back aspect is really puzzling. – twobyfour
Not puzzling at all. Multiple shooters, a coordinated attach (fire, maneuver, reload, cover your buddy while he reloads), high power rounds exploding into walls, creating exploding debris, high power rounds snapping by your ear. Shock and aw.
One man with a handgun against those trained shooters is a suicidal response. A highly trained combat shooter in an advantageous position might drop a few, maybe a half dozen quickly, but he’d be done as soon as he exposes his position by firing.
This is why there are SWAT “teams”. The instinctive reaction of most law enforcement officers is reactive, defensive, and to some extent, to apply measured force. The instinct of a Marine in Fallujah for example, is to maneuver, attack, advance, and utterly destroy the objective as quickly and violently as possible. It’s a big difference.
Nov 30, 2008 - 6:20 am 50. bvw:People who shoot from the hip are not trained shooters. Trained terror spreaders, yes. Trained shooters no.
Also Marines learned to charge before there was a US. Before there was “bushido”. The historical role a Marine — a soldier among sailors — is to lead the charge when boarding or being boarded.
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:09 am 51. james wilson:Wretchard-
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:09 am 52. ricpic:India will never acheive what the U.S. military acheived in Iraq, however temporarily. Never.
The model of terror and submission is too simple and too strong, of liberty and responsibility too demanding.
The population of Massachussetts in 1787 was literate, skilled, and productive, far more than India or Islam. But Jonathon Smith, a farmer, rose to wittness Shay’s rebellion at the Massachussetts ratifying convention, and spoke in favor of the Union:
“People I say took up arms, and then, if you wanted to speak to them, you had the musket of death presented to your breast. They would rob you of your preperty, threaten to burn your houses, oblige you to be on your guard day and night…poor persons were set in the front, to be kiled by their own friends. Our distess was so great that we should have been glad to snatch at anything that looked like a government. Had any person that was able to protect us, come up and set up his standard, we should all have flocked to it, even if it had been a monarch, and that monarch might have proved a tyrant. So that you see that anarchy leads to tyranny, and better have one tyrant than so many at once.”
As usual the state failed to function in its one legitimate role: to protect its citizens from enemies foreign and domestic.
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:33 am 53. Pat Patterson:Slight correction, the creation of marines, credit to the Romans, had more to do with maintaining order, discipline, subduing mutinies and clearing enemy ships with sniper fire. Every military formation in the world needs units that will, if necessary, use force on its fellow servicemen. Marines were not initially used as assault troops until the 18th Century.
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:38 am 54. Tom Holsinger:A friend of mine said that the Indian police were following a botched standard operating procedure. Allegedly the police had used indiscriminate firepower in past terrorist incidents, resulting in massive civilian casualties from friendly fire, so they were told not to engage terrorists without orders from superiors.
So he says this time the terrorists took out the most senior police officers first and the rest acted like a leaderless herd.
I suppose something like this is possible given poor training, lousy organization and botched orders.
Nov 30, 2008 - 10:29 am 55. j-damn:*This operation must be taken very seriously and strong punitive actions should be taken. All of terror enablers should be punished.*
Blah, blah, blah. Seems to me I heard all of this crap in September of 2001. Yet neither Syria, Saudi, Iran nor Pakistan are piles of smoking rubble.
Until free people remember what a good carpet bombing can do, this kind of crap will keep happening.
Now back to our arcane discussion of the history of the Marines and various quotes from Rev War characters, right back to sleep, people.
Nov 30, 2008 - 12:06 pm 56. Bart Hall (Kansas, USA):India’s best response in the situation will be to send two brigades of their best troops to the A’stan – Paki frontier immediately.
Then, two more brigades in mid-December, at which point they move south, snow and all. Classic hammer & anvil. Make the Pakis move north in response. Concentrate the tangos in the middle and unleash the USAF, its drones, and anything else we have on everything stuck in the middle.
Civilians? Too bad. You chose lousy friends.
Nov 30, 2008 - 3:39 pm 57. Fred2:1. I’d ask if the Mumbai police were in fact unarmed; The guns were for show. That was a problem in the US Embassy in Tehran in the 1979 takeover, the Marine Guards had only show weapons.
2. The purpose of the attack is nearly unfathomable. Perhaps it was to start a war between India and Pakistan.
3. The hard left is going to have a difficult time with this. Those who said of 9/11 that the “Chickens came home to roost” and all that now have to swallow an attack against vegetarian India. Practically against Gandhi himself.
Will they say it’s a result of Indian Imperialism?
Nov 30, 2008 - 4:52 pm 58. Subotai Bahadur:RE: #33 Leon-
I saw where at least some Indians are claiming that the entire terrorist force was only 10 men. I suspect someone in the government is trying to downplay it as the demands for revenge get louder. We know that 3 or 4 terrorists died in the taxicab bombs way up north by the airport. We also know that in addition to attacks on the Main Cinema and Central Train Station, they took and held 5 widely separated locations [Oberoi Hotel and Nahriman House on Nahriman Point, Taj Hotel near the Colaba police station and the cafe that were hit, and the Cama and the St. George Hospitals up north near the Airport.] Each of these captures involved dealing with numbers of hostages, including sorting out Americans, Aussies, Brits, and Jews. Further, these locations were large buildings with multiple access points that had to be defended on a 360 degree threat access, plus against heli-borne assault. They successfully did this for a period of about 12 hours [the hospitals] to close to 4 days against constant attack by trained, equipped, and well motivated military forces. And in the midst of that, they had time to booby trap the hotels and Nahriman House with explosives throughout.
I cannot see 6-7 terrorists doing that. My back of the envelope calculations are 70-100 terrorists actively engaged, and a huge infrastructure for the preparations and pre-positioning of ammunition and explosives. I also note that a number of terrorists were found to be carrying documents for multiple identities and sums of currency in dollars, rupees, and pounds. That would imply both the involvement of a government agency [ISI ?] and planning that included the option of at least some of the terrorists to slip away in the confusion and regroup with the help of the infrastructure.
It was noted in another post here at BC, by a Marine Officer, that the terrorists at the Central Train Station duplicated the two man tactics of the Marines effectively; which would allow so few terrorists to kill so many. I don’t argue with Marines over tactics, if only because I have a nephew who is a Gunny in Iraq right now. The two man teams may have been used effectively in the attacks in the open, but that does not explain the ability to defend large buildings from assault by heavily armed, motivated, and trained personnel for so long. The numbers just do not add up.
I have submitted my calculations to an acquaintance with far more than passing knowledge of, and decades of experience with, specialized small unit operations. He replied agreeing with me, saying his calculations are for 90 active terrorists, plus infrastructure. Right now, unless there are indications of 70+ Tango’s KIA/prisoners; I will assume there is a substantial risk of a second wave of attacks soon from those not neutralized. I will leave it to everyone to consider the reaction in India if that were to come to pass.
Subotai Bahadur
Nov 30, 2008 - 5:51 pm 59. RAH:The ineffectiveness of Indian police was a problem of command and control. The commando raiders took out the head of the police by going after the hard targets first. The attack on the transit station was a diversion and the failure of communications allowed the chaos to expand with more trains arriving with unsuspecting passengers.
The station security was low grade and probably had been trained not to shoot and was at a disadvantage from a determined enemy.
I do not believe for a second that there were only 10 raiders. According to fisherman 10 came off one inflatable boat and there were four more boats plus two mother ships. This attack had at least 40 raiders and I do not know the reason they say there is only 10. I doubt it is because some got away. There are a lot of bodies and I am sure more of the raiders were killed. The police did shoot back in the streets but ineffectively.
The advantage was training, planning, surprise and speed for the raiders and those advantages were a multiplier effect.
The slowness in taking back a 400 room hotel that was burning and not knowing who was a bad guy and who was a guest will take time and probably a couple of days. The Indian government waiting for military units to arrive before taking on the room-to-room situation.
This is a 9-11 moment for India. Coast Guard apparently had accosted the raiders and the Coasties were invited on board and killed and thrown overboard so another warning was lost. Another problem with communications that the death of two Coast Guards and missing ship was not noticed.
The obvious response is to upgrade training of police to go active and respond to military tactics. Operational procedures before getting onboard a vessel will need to be addressed so I not heard from then superiors know something went wrong.
India is very unlike America and the mindset is quite different. We are steeped in violence and think quickly to fight back. Ten percent of Americans are armed every day in states that allow that. So other than in cities DC, New York, Chicago, there is a percentage of armed civilians that tend to react aggressively to crime. If we perceived a military style attack, our people would fight back very quickly against a perceived foreign attack. India is very passive and controlled or over civilized. There inherent violence of Americans in crowded India would not work. It is the same in Japan, this type of attack would succeed among the civilians but Japanese response would be better controlled and commanded.
But US security is better trained and has better reaction speed. Remember that a lot of Americans after 9-11 did buy guns and prepared for violence on their own since they did not know when another AQ attack would happen in the US. Thankfully none have happened.
I doubt that repercussions will fall against India’s 115 million Muslims, but better intelligence is needed about these groups that perpetuate these attacks.
These raiders are not state sanction groups of Pakistan; they are a criminal military organization within Pakistan. Pakistan did not invade India, but a forceful diplomatic complaint to crack down on this group is legitimate. The US did that for years with Taliban crossing the border into Afghanistan until we finally figured that Pakistan government did not have the ability to crack down in the NW Frontier and it was up to us to take care of the bad guys within Pakistan. But that took years of intelligence gathering to target the AQ in Pakistan with the drones. We did not have that info in 2001 and 2002.
India will have to do the same to gather intelligence of locations and the people within the structure of this group to target them for elimination. This is where the police detective and intelligence work is done. To get names and places to verify the info and then decide how to act.
Nov 30, 2008 - 6:14 pm 60. 49erDweet:Several of Mike Sylwester’s opinion posts on this thread, see #10. and # 36. , for instance, make unsupported allegations that Pakistan is diligently pursuing and rooting out “radical Moslems” from their midsts such as those involved in the Mumbai raid. Googling recent news items fails to support this claim. It would be helpful if MS would provide the links needed to accurately judge the validity of his point of view. As it is, he could just be trying to sway the dialogue – but what do I know?
As to the comparison between Luxor and Mumbia, the Indian secret police [anti-terrorist squad] environment is nowhere near as powerful or effective as Egypt’s – and whether that is a good thing or not is beside the point. Imo.
Nov 30, 2008 - 6:52 pm 61. pm317:The beat police in India are very poorly trained. Their equipment is not up to snuff. I was just talking about this very issue with my brother in India — he was relating a conversation he once had with a policeman. The gist of it is that the cop is made to wear some heavy boots (weighing some I don’t know, 20 pounds and the culprit is barefoot and this cop lugging the 25 lb boot has to chase after that guy? Even though they had guns I do not know how well they were trained to use it. They may also be caught off guard (understatement) and I don’t quite know what was going through their minds — could they be thinking they need orders from higher ups? But all I can say is that they are not trained for this kind of situation. Maybe they should be but it all comes down to resources and India after all its corruption and such, does not have much to invest in infrastructure, I guess.
Nov 30, 2008 - 7:26 pm 62. Dave:Can’t resist this one:
Polygamy? As long as informed consent is freely given I see no reason that a woman cannot have as many husbands as she can properly support.
Nov 30, 2008 - 10:09 pm 63. Dave:As to numbers, I am with Subotai. Support elemnents somewhere around a hundred.
Lack of police response? Somebody had figured out what local habits and official rules were
and moved to take advantage.
Only surprising little factoid: Enfields refused to fire? Funny, the SMLE is unusually reliable. Either the cops had no
Nov 30, 2008 - 10:16 pm 64. Kirk Parker:prior experience whatsoever with manually operated long arms or (more likely) outdated ammunition resulted in ruptured casings/head separation or something similar.
Dave (62),
Some kind of Enfield rifle was the standard police issue in Southern Sudan when we lived there in the first half of the ’80s. They mostly didn’t have ammo, however (usually shot up for hunting purposes shortly after it was issued, despite official prohibitions against personal use.) I have no idea as to the condition of those arms, mind you.
Nov 30, 2008 - 10:29 pm 65. oMan:Thanks all for great comments. My own take? Indians may well go on a deep-rinse spree of Muslims, even if no follow-on attacks should occur. If these follow-ons DO occur, then Katy bar the door: purges by Indian mobs or even govt, followed by Pak demands that its coreligionists not be singled out, followed by (at best) pointless jaw-jaw and (at worst, and ultimately) nuke-swap. Result? Pakistan enters the history books as the place that once was, and India tries to regain its economic and moral stature. Not sure how many nukes the Paks deliver, it may mean a lot of stink for the rest of us. Maybe it will teach us to act more decisively next time we see an unworthy “state” bent upon acquiring toys with too much throw-weight. My impression is that State Depts everywhere and always are more interested in a good lunch and a book deal, than in figuring out how to keep the troublemakers under lock and key.
Nov 30, 2008 - 11:33 pm 66. Gordon:#61–I can’t resist either: that’s called polyandry.
Dec 1, 2008 - 10:00 am 67. Kirk Parker:#65, #62–count me among the non-resistors, too: polygamy at least by its etymology is gender-neutral. The female-specific term you’re looking for is polygyny.
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