131 Comments

1. trangbang68:

And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouths.

-Zechariah 14:12

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:07 pm 2. PithyMe:

“Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it” (Zechariah 12:2-3)

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:33 pm 3. wildernesscalling:

Although I have high regard for Mr. Pager and enjoy and agree with much of what he has said before I find the last part about Israel not true, Israel does not live to hate its neighbors, though under it last 50+ years of existence it has a good reason too, it is unlike the Muslims who’s religion demands it hate and kill the Jews more so then the infidel!

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:49 pm 4. wretchard:

I honestly don’t think the average Muslim hates the Jew, except as a convention. It’s apparently true that most of Muslims live outside the Middle East and I’ll wager many have never seen a real Jew in their lives. How many Jews are there in Indonesia? In the Philippines, for example, there are about 500 Jews in a population of 80 million. You’ll get struck by lightning before you meet a real Jewish person. You may never in your whole life. If I asked every Muslim rebel in the Philippines how many Jews he’d met the answer would be zero. (BTW I once asked a Leftist “fighting American military imperialism in the Philippines” how many American soldiers he’d seen killing Filipinos. The answer was zero. Then I asked him how many informers the New People’s Army had executed …)

Now the thing about hatreds that aren’t personal, but simply doctrinal is that they can be dispelled if you discredit the doctrine. Nobody’s got a real personal beef with the Jews. Personal hatreds, formed by communities which have lived in close proximity and despise each other, I think, are harder to quell. So maybe I’m overly optimistic, but I think there’s hope for Muslim-Jewish relations. This hatred is a sick fantasy purveyed to people who may never see each other in person.

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:59 pm 5. jaymaster:

A few years back, I was interviewing a Muslim engineer of mid-eastern descent for a senior level engineering job, here in the US. Six figure salary range, so it was pretty serious business.

About halfway through the interview, I was explaining to him that our company is privately owned, by one man. I was taken aback when he asked, “Is he Jewish?”

I responded with “Hell if I know”, which was (and still is) the truth. He seemed puzzled by that response.

He didn’t get the job, BTW.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:05 pm 6. trangbang68:

Hate to argue with the boss, but I think Jew hatred goes beyond doctrine . I think its demonic and as such irrational and can’t be proven away any more than Julius Steicher could be converted to ecumenicism . I fear there is no cure for it,but the blood of the haters.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:08 pm 7. Fred:

The hate would go on whether there are Jews or not. They may switch to beheading Christian school girls or fall back on the old standard of killing muslims who aren’t exactly the right flavor of muslim.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:16 pm 8. MarkJ:

Interesting fact: When Stalin died in 1953, even many zeks in the camps cried.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:18 pm 9. rab:

Wretchard said….

“So maybe I’m overly optimistic, but I think there’s hope for Muslim-Jewish relations.”

The only hope for Muslim-Jewish relations is if there are no Jews left. In the event that is not true all other Muslim-infidel groups will have to reach parity before any attention will be made to the Jews.

As vanderluen said Hama Rules need to be applied.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:23 pm 10. Vivictius:

I think the bigger problem with it is that it takes so long for the anti-Semites to destroy them selves. Think of how much less scrolling past we would have to do with out C4 and his giant blocks of text.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:27 pm 11. Peter Boston:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Jew hatred is built into Islam as basic doctrine. For Muslims to abandon Jew hatred they would first have to abandon the Koran.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:49 pm 12. Insufficiently Sensitive:

The only hope for Muslim-Jewish relations is if there are no Jews left.

Tell us, please, why it was that the Jews who left Spain in 1492 or whenever were welcomed into the Ottoman Empire, and remained largely unmolested and prosperous until Hitler rounded them up 450 years later?

Also, please consider the difference between the disproportionately funded Wahabi sect, and the considerably less extreme Muslims such as the Bosnians who could and did coexist with Jews. Asserting that all Muslims believe and behave as Wahabis isn’t particularly useful to a rational discussion.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:50 pm 13. Demosophist:

Well here’s the thing. This is obvious. Indeed, it’s too obvious to deserve much comment.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:03 pm 14. Peter Boston:

Even the sanitized Wikipedia entry is not complimentary.

The argument being made is that because the Ottomans didn’t slaughter the Jews for a period that they had it good. Jews were ghettoized, made to war distinctive clothing, and paid the infidel tax. Also, any “good” treatment was entirely dependent upon the personality of the Muslim ruler. There was no institutional requirement within Islam or within Ottoman jurisprudence that Jews (and other infidels) had even a basic right to life.

If you consider beneficent slavery a good deal then Rah Rah Islam.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:08 pm 15. ADE:

When you’re tribal, you need to demonstrate that you’re part of the tribe, or else.

What better way to demonstrate your loyalty to the tribe than a ritual hatred. Better than tartan, finger signs, etc.

’sides, when you live a brain-dead culture that’s been by-passed by many other cultures, you need something to get you out of bed in the morning. Why not a little hate?

ADE

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:25 pm 16. Staring In Disbelief:

Doggone it Vivictius, your C$ shot beat me to it!

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:50 pm 17. Morton Doodslag:

I think the notion that hatred ultimately destroys the hater is a comforting, romantic, and neat little literary device that doesn’t necessarily pan out in the real world. The Muslims have indulged in nearly 1400 years of non-stop Jew hatred, along with hatred of all non-Muslims in their midst. Of course some might say “And just look at what that hatred has gotten them!? Islamic nations are the sewers of the world, backward and retrograde in every way!” This is true, in part. But it ignores the fact that there are now more than 1 billion Muslims in the world — and their birthrate is gaining momentum over nearly every other group on earth.

Islamic hatred hasn’t destroyed Islam — it has nurtured it, insulated it from reformation, and held Muslims together through good times and bad. The newest Jihad is a function of three main things:

1. Undying doctrinal Islamic hatred of all things “un-Islamic” …
2. Unfettered and out-of-control birth rates — helped primarily by the generous humanitarian aid, money and medicine flowing from the unwitting foolish West …
3. The influx of several trillion dollars from the West into Muslim coffers over the last 3-4 decades.

Jihad, which is the impulse mandated by Islam to subjugate or destroy the entire non-Islamic world, is designed solely to usher in the era of Islam Uber Alles. All Muslims, the murderous filth who massacre innocents, or the pious family raising soldiers for Jihad, ALL of them are engaged in the same endeavor to annihilate the non-Muslim world and give it all to Allah. Their hatred doesn’t destroy them — it makes them cohesive, determined, focused on the mission which Muhammad set them on 14 centuries ago.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:50 pm 18. Insufficiently Sensitive:

Jews were ghettoized, made to war distinctive clothing, and paid the infidel tax. Also, any “good” treatment was entirely dependent upon the personality of the Muslim ruler. There was no institutional requirement within Islam or within Ottoman jurisprudence that Jews (and other infidels) had even a basic right to life.

And the same applied to every non-Turkish culture that was conquered in the building of the Ottoman empire. Oh, and you forgot the conscripting of boys from the infidels too – and the fact that some of them became Grand Viziers themselves. By comparison with the autocratic rulers of Western Europe at the time, the Ottomans were no worse than some, and better than others, toward their captive peoples.

No one’s perfect, but in the real world the perfect is the enemy of the good, and all the ‘rights’ one can name weren’t even invented yet. Life with the Ottomans was certainly better than with Ferdinand and Isabella. Was there a better place they could have chosen at the time?

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:53 pm 19. Morton Doodslag:

I’d also like to add that the infamous Jew hatred of the Nazis isn’t what destroyed them — that’s are a highly inaccurate and even detestable distortion of history. Bombs, guns, guts, sweat, billions of dollars, millions of lives — that’s what destroyed the Nazis. To suggest it was their Jew hatred is a grave disservice to the millions who died to destroy them.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:57 pm 20. Alexis:

One complicating matter in talking about anti-Jewish hatred is the fact that many Jews do hate. I’m not just talking about the occasional Jew who dreams of nuking every European city. I’m not just talking about the story of the girl who cried “Jew hater”. (Her brother cried “Wolf”.) I’m not just talking about a subculture of Jews who talk one another into a frenzy, lashing out at every outrage Muslims have committed lately, to the point where the latest atrocity is not so much of a reason to get angry but rather a pretext to vent rage. I’m not just talking about Kahane supporters. There are Jews who reflexively hate people of English ancestry, assuming that “Anglos” or “WASPs” have all the privileges. There are Jews who reflexively sneer at supposedly inbred people from Arkansas, never mind that cousin marriage in Arkansas is illegal while Jews have a specific exemption to practice cousin marriage (and uncle-niece marriage) in Rhode Island. There are Jews who hate other Jews they have never met with a passion that one would normally expect from a Nazi.

Jews are hardly the only group that has ever been hated in a virulent manner. And it’s not as though occasional Jews have never hated other people in the manner they are hated by Jew haters. It’s not as though Jew haters have a monopoly over self-pity.

Such hatred is self-defeating, not merely for Jew haters, but also for Jews who hate and for Jew hater haters.

The real reason why the State of Israel continues to exist today is because of Fatah and Hamas. If Israelis were left to themselves, they would likely have descended into a civil war long ago. Jew haters have almost certainly done more to promote the continued existence of the State of Israel than anybody else on the planet, certainly more than any “Zionist conspiracy” ever has.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:01 pm 21. exhelodrvr:

I’m sure that provides a lot of comfort to the Jews.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:06 pm 22. fred:

Peter Boston has it right. It’s essentially a doctrinal thing.

There’s a reason for it. When Muhammad went into exile from Mecca to Yathrib (Medinah)that part of Arabia was dominated by Jewish tribes. They rejected him as the definitive prophet or even as a prophet at all. The insult burned within him, and he got his sock puppet to pronounce curse, invective, and revenge upon the Jews.

By the time Muhammad was finished in Yathrib, all the Jews were either killed, driven into exile, or enslaved.

Jew hatred is DOCTRINALLY hard-wired into the theology of Islam.

Why is it that there is this stubborn persistence on this blog of people who find ingenious ways to excuse Islam of its defects and atrocious history?

This is the reason why I want Robert Spencer to be a guest on this blog. To set people straight and get them to finally pay attention.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:22 pm 23. fred:

Robert Spencer would tell you – and you all would probably take him more seriously if he says it – that there is a reason why not all Muslims behave as the Arabs do. They don’t know Arabic, the language of the Qur’an. Specifically, classical Arabic. So, most of the world’s Muslims do not know what’s in the Qur’an. The folks are told that the Qur’an is the literal, eternal, uncreated, perfect word of Allah. They just don’t know much about what’s in it, unless their clerics know classical Arabic and have studied it. And seen fit to tell their flocks.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:45 pm 24. fred:

Our objective has never been to wipe them out. It has always been to stop their advance or to stop them from killing more of us. But at some point, in the time of WMD proliferation, they are going to over reach and a moment will be reached where we can no longer suffer their presence anymore.

The ball has always been in their court.

I’m not optimistic that this can be resolved with them finally leaving us alone. They cannot do this, because the words of the Prophet urge them onward, seeking our submission or destruction.

Nothing gets me hotter under the collar than the suggestions that we are the cause of this and that we make them what they are.

Dec 2, 2008 - 8:25 pm 25. Alexis:

Fred:

Imagine if you had it within your power to create some document that would either be an edited version of the Quran or (more likely) a book that supercedes the Quran. Perhaps you would allow Muslims to continue to call themselves Muslims, but the holy text would magically change to something else. What should that sacred text be?

I see three long-term alternatives to the present religion called Islam. The first would be mass conversion of Muslims to some form of Christianity. (Don’t laugh. It’s happening in some places.) The second would be some form of the Quran that could perhaps be channeled like the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ. (One version of this is the Bahai religion.) The third alternative would effectively be a new religion based solidly upon Islamic philosophy that would sweep away the teachings of the Quran and Hadith altogether, leaving a very simple unitarian message that rejects all idolatry (including the Kaaba).

There are many messages that would effectively supercede Islam. I think the third alternative, an esoteric unitarian theology, would be the most effective means to replace Islam with something better.

Victory cannot be achieved until the victory conditions are imagined. If Islam is truly the problem, we then need to realistically imagine what the world would be like without Islam. In a world without Islam, Middle Easterners would still be suspicious of Americans, but the political language they use and the theological justifications they use would be entirely different. We need to shy away from the “blame it all on the Muslims” game and instead consider what message would lead Muslims to regard the “Age of Islam” the way Muslims presently look at the pre-Islamic “Age of Ignorance”.

I would like your ideas on this.

Dec 2, 2008 - 8:32 pm 26. fred:

“In a world without Islam, Middle Easterners would still be suspicious of Americans, but the political language they use and the theological justifications they use would be entirely different.”

Two things need to be brought to your attention. First, their problem is not with Americans as such – it is with unbelievers everywhere. They had animosity towards peoples and nations long before there was a United States of America.

Second, how do you know that they would still have problems with us Americans? You are presuming something here, and it needs to be explicit. Your statement, in a very subtle way, still gives them the benefit of the doubt – that somehow there might be something to that grievance thing.

I just don’t accept it.

One last thing. It would never be in my power or your power or our collective power to change their religion or even how they use it. This is entirely up to them. They are the problem. They are the ones who, for 1,400 years, have murdered over 270 million human beings (and counting). They are the ones who have to want to change. We can’t make them change or do it for them.

We have a right to self-defense and self-preservation against what they intend to do with us. The only duty we owe them is our vigorous self-defense. If it means that some of them or even all of them die in that fight, it’s on them not us.

We arrive at moments like these within our kafir discussions about “what to do with them” because some of us truly do not understand the aggressive and violent nature of Muhammad and his sock puppet. We are not the ones who have to change. When they broke out of Arabia just after the death of Muhammad, neither the Byzantines nor the Persians had done any act of aggression towards the Hijaz. If they had stayed inside their sandbox and left everyone else alone, history on down to the present would be very different. But something drove them onwards right at us. To not be curious about that is astounding.

Dec 2, 2008 - 9:15 pm 27. Storm-Rider:

Anti-Semitism has its roots in the fact that God chose the Jews for a special mission – to bring the written word of God and its attendant moral code into the world. Some cultures see this as an affront, and wishing chosenness for themselves, they seek to destroy the Jews. Anti-Semites usually hate both the Jew and the Biblical moral code.

Mr. Prager points out in many of his lectures that during medieval times the Christian religion was contaminated by anti-Semitism and this is still true in Europe to some degree even today. Prager’s contention is that by emphasizing Old Testament study and adherence to both Jewish and Christian morality, i.e.: Judeo-Christian Values; the Christian American colonists transformed themselves into Judeo-Christians; and our culture has therefore not fallen into anti-Semitism. Individual anti-Semitism occurs here, of course; but not cultural anti-Semitism.

Dec 2, 2008 - 9:29 pm 28. Cannoneer No. 4:

Fred, Robert Spencer has his own blog. What’s in it for wretchard to give him band width here?

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:41 pm 29. Lifeofthemind:

The difference between Christian anti-Semitism and Islamic anti-Semitism is that, despite some awkward passages in Matthew and in Paul, hatred and material supremacy in this world is not congruent to the core message delivered by or through Jesus of Nazareth and hatred and temporal supremacy is the core message delivered by or through Mohammed. The synergies between Nazism and Islamism were recognized by leaders in both communities before, during and after the war. On the topic of criticism of Islam the wiki page is a good place to start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:46 pm 30. Alexis:

Fred:

We exist. Certain kinds of monsters will necessarily hate us because we do exist.

Historically, Muslims have been lousy explorers. Instead, Islam has been more adept at conquering civilizations that attain a high level of wealth. Islam’s traditional prohibition against any non-Muslim having a house taller than a Muslim house effectively explains the September 11 attacks. Penis envy.

Let’s say you are correct in all of your statements about Islam. Let’s also say it’s not in our power to change Muslims. Still, how must Muslims change? What must they turn themselves into?

Suggesting that Muslims themselves must figure out what model to use for changing themselves into better people is rather like saying that a wolf must figure out how to become a dog. Islam is self-consciously an infantile religion (given that traditional Muslim doctrine holds that an infant is a Muslim by default), so expecting Muslims to grow up has its obvious implications.

Imagine if reeducation worked on Muslims. (It does, by the way.) If Muslims are to be reeducated, what should they learn? What would be an appealing alternative to a sock puppet? Most Muslims don’t know and don’t care about what is in the Quran; if they could keep their identity in some manner that lets them use some document other than the Quran or perhaps follow some prophet other than Mohammed, wouldn’t that have its advantages?

The Belmont Club has had its share of nay-sayers claiming that it is so difficult to defeat Islamists militarily that reeducation must be a pipe dream. Yet, philosophy is all-important in defeating sock puppets. Call it reeducation, call it propaganda, call it public relations, call it psychological warfare, call it philosophy for all I care; philosophy must be part of the armament of the West just as much as rocket launchers are. Sock puppet prophets have existed ever since the Stone Age, and they will continue to exist in future millennia. Philosophy is a key difference between a religion based upon wisdom, and a religion based upon sock puppet fraud.

If a Muslim wanted to change from being a sock puppet idolater to becoming something better, what should he do?

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:48 pm 31. Lifeofthemind:

@Cannoneer No. 4,
Concur, Mr. Spencer is beig ill served by his disciple, the blog pimping has gotten out of hand and only leads to first the messenger and then the message being ignored. Ultimately it drives people from the blog which is at the least bad manners from any guest.

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:52 pm 32. fred:

Alexis,

The alternative I would offer Muslims is The Golden Rule (it does not exist in Islam)and Christianity. “No one can come to the Father except through me.” I had often wondered about what that meant for many years, and it’s only later on in my adult years that I’ve come to understand what it means. It means that our model for what it means to be a true human being is Jesus of Nazareth. Until his example, something was missing. Judaism was certainly trying to find a way to God and God was trying to find a way to them. So, the key to understanding God is through Jesus. His way of living, loving, acting, thinking, dying…

I would ask Muslims to take a good look at how Jesus lived and compare it with how Muhammad lived. Who was the better human being? It’s no contest, if one is honest.

Jesus of Nazareth would not have been caught boinking a 9 year old girl. He would not be plotting and scheming to steal his son in law’s wife when he saw her naked. He would not be going down a line in front of a trench, lopping off the heads of Jewish males. I could go on and on.

And I have just the person who would be an outstanding missionary to the Arabs: the former Palestinian terrorist and Christian convert Walid Shoebat.

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:57 pm 33. fred:

Alexis,

The Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I meant to put that in just before quoting a saying of Jesus about his relationship to his Abba.

Dec 2, 2008 - 10:59 pm 34. Leo Linbeck III:

I’d like to tell a story. It’s a little long, and only slightly OT, so I’ll beg patience from fellow BCers.

About 5 years ago, I hosted a pre-release screening of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. The circumstances that led to this strange occurrence are not worth relaying in detail, but I was asked in 5 days to assemble an audience and find a location for the screening. At the time, I knew nothing about the film, much less the controversy surrounding it.

I invited about 100 Catholics, Protestants, and Jews. I had a couple of my closest friends work with me on the invitation list – one Catholic, one Jewish – and we were able to get pretty much everyone who was invited to actually show up (apparently, I was pretty much the only clueless person in Houston at the time WRT the movie ).

Before the event, a couple of interesting things happened. First, my friend who had asked me to host the screening called two days before and asked how the invitations were going. I said things were looking good – we were going to have about 100 people, we’d found a place to hold the screening, and I was optimistic that things were going to go swimmingly. He asked about the breakdown of the audience by faith. I said it was about 1/4 Catholic, 1/4 Protestant (mainly evangelical, many blacks), 1/4 Jewish, and 1/4 my family (hey, a guy’s gotta keep his family happy). There was a silence on the other end of the phone. He said that “the producers” really didn’t want any Jews at the screening. My response was, “Sorry, old chum, but they’re coming. Houston is an inclusive place, we don’t do those sorts of things here, and these are my friends, so I’m not un-inviting them.” My friend – who doesn’t have an anti-semitic bone in his body – said, “Well, I guess that’ll be OK. I just won’t tell them.” We both kinda laughed it off, and that was that.

The other interesting thing was that my Jewish friend – one of my closest friends in this world – invited leaders of many of the Jewish organizations in the city. We had the full alphabet soup – AJC (American Jewish Committee), JFH (Jewish Federation of Houston), and the ADL (Anti-Defamation League). He asked me if this presented a problem. I said no, that would be fine. What I didn’t know at the time, however, was that the local Executive Director of the ADL was out of town, and the request went to his #2. This person was unnerved by the invitation – unbeknownst to me, Mel Gibson and the ADL had been at war over the movie. Early versions of the script had been leaked, and the ADL had gone on the attack, claiming that the film was going to be anti-semitic.

Anyway, the #2 took it upon herself to fax the invitation to the New York headquarters of the ADL. The next thing I knew, two members of the ADL staff were on their way to Houston. One of them was the national point-person in the public fight with Gibson. I was, again, clueless. (If you’re noticing a trend here, dear reader, you’re very perceptive.)

So on the appointed day, the crowd assembled at the Museum of Fine Arts Houston for the screening. Everyone had to sign a standard pre-release agreement not to discuss the film with the press – SOP for such events, I’m told. The doors opened, and people took their seats. About 20 minutes later, Mel Gibson arrived, looking tired and disheveled. One of his assistants went to the projection room, and loaded up the film. I made a few comments welcoming Mr. Gibson to Houston and thanking everyone for coming. The lights went down, and the film began.

It was an extraordinarily powerful experience. Shocking in its graphic portrayal of the passion and death of Jesus, but emotionally overwhelming. I found it beautiful and moving. I was in tears at the end, as was my wife (but then again she cried when she saw The SpongeBob SquarePants Movie so it’s not as good of an indicator). The lights came up, and there was total silence in the theater for a good minute (it seemed like forever).

I gathered myself and went to the front with a microphone, and Mel Gibson joined me there to take questions. The first comment was from a Jewish businessman and leader in the interfaith movement. He absolutely excoriated Gibson and the film, calling it offensive, anti-semitic, and hateful. He asked why Gibson would make such a terrible film, a film that would lead to violence against Jews.

I was floored – I didn’t see any of that in the movie. Gibson was very calm and collected, and answered the question with grace and sensitivity. But I could tell strange things were afoot.

Next came Joanne Herring, of Charlie Wilson’s War fame. She apparently saw a completely different film. She called it beautiful, touching, uplifting, and inspiring. She was effusive in her praise, and when she finished, applause broke out in the audience.

Then came the NYC ADL dude. He also attacked Gibson and the film, but in a much more vitriolic way. Gibson’s response was more pointed, and it turned out that he knew this gentleman from their sparring in the press, but had never met him in person. His response was, again, diplomatic and measured, although somewhat more pointed in his comments.

And so it went on for about 30 minutes – back and forth between Jews and Christians, one negative, one positive. At the end, the NYC ADL dude stood up and started shouting at Gibson, and I brought the discussion to an end. It was an exhausting and emotionally draining experience.

That evening, NYC ADL dude called the press in Houston and New York, and said that he had seen the movie, and his worst fears were confirmed. The Passion of the Christ was indeed anti-semitic, and its release threatened to spark a wave of violence against Jews. The ADL used this press release as the cornerstone of a fundraising appeal, asking their supporters to send money to help the ADL fight this dangerous film. The publicity made Gibson furious, although in retrospect it helped make him >$100M. In Hollywood, no publicity is bad publicity.

But I was mad too. The NYC ADL dude had violated his signed agreement, which reflected on me as the host. Several of the local Jewish leaders were also embarrassed, and made their unhappiness known to the ADL. I later got a sort of non-apology letter from Abraham Foxman, the head of the ADL, thanking me for including them but making it clear that they had a moral obligation to violate their signed agreement. Sheesh.

What happened next, however, was truly remarkable. That night, I called a small group of my friends who had been at the film, and they were also disturbed by the vast difference between the ways Jews and Christians saw the film, and by the fact that there was still a lot left to say. So we organized a series of “coffee klatches” where the folks who were at the screening came back together to talk more about the experience.

Throughout the klatches, the theme the Jews kept hitting on is that this film was dangerous, this sort of stuff had touched off waves of violence in the past, and they were frightened. The Christians, on the other hand, were shocked by these expressions of fear, and talked about why the film touched them so. The Jews described all of the anti-semitic elements of the film, and the Christians were surprised at these element – most of them weren’t even aware of the references, and many were so fleeting that it would have taken a very savvy viewer to pick up on them.

Well, as it turns out, many of the Jews had met before the film, and the ADL had provided them with a briefing of all of the anti-semitic references they identified from the script they had allegedly stolen from Gibson. There were prepped on what to look for, and when they saw the references they confirmed their fears. And, in a similar way, all of the Christians were very familiar with the passion story, and they saw the story they expected to see.

So, by the end of the discussions (one of which, coincidentally, was attended by Dennis Prager), it became clear to all that this had been one huge exercise in confirmation bias. Each group had come in with preconceived notions, and saw the parts of the film that confirmed their expectations. The Jews saw the anti-semitic references, and missed the overarching storyline of Christ’s sacrifice. The Christians saw the storyline, but missed the anti-semitic references.

Of course, most folks know how the story ends. The movie made a fortune. There was no outbreak of violence against Jews. The audiences were moved by the film. The ADL raised a lot of money. [Ed: a bit of a cheap shot, don't you think?] Everybody wins!

Thus endeth the story.

A final thought:

Cultural identities are built upon a foundation of cultural narratives. The story of Jesus Christ is a critical cultural narrative for Christians. The story of the pogroms (including the mother-of-all-pogroms, the Holocaust) is a critical cultural narrative for Jews. And there are, of course, many others. But these narratives shape our understanding of ourselves, our society, and our world, and we are, to a large extent, captives of those narratives. We tend to see what confirms our narratives, and ignore apparent countervailing evidence (often, BTW, for good reason, but ignored nevertheless).

When cultural identities clash, they can do so peacefully (through words) or violently (through arms). In Houston, the clash between narratives was peaceful; in Gaza, not so much. But the results of those clashes form new narratives that help adapt and protect those cultures. Over time, the ability to adapt and develop our understanding of our narrative increases the likelihood of its survival.

Robust cultures have to be able to mobilize both kinds of defenses – words and arms – or they will not survive.

L3

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:01 pm 35. Giya:

It is very hard, if not impossible, to kill a religion. Individuals, people, even entire races have been killed off in the past, but I cannot think of a major religion that has been destroyed. Certainly entire civilizations have been torn asunder but their beliefs still exist in some form or fashion. Considering how infectious Islam is and our troubles with proliferation, “some form or fashion” probably won’t cut it.

Plus Islam is not really a civilization it is also not really a religion. How do you rid yourself of a metastasized cancer infecting your entire body? Surely there are extreme and horrific methods, but I don’t think our society is ready to make that call yet. Unfortunately I believe that Western society will never be ready to make that call until our hand is forced.

I agree with Fred and Wretchard – the ball is in their court and if they continue in the way they are today, it will be their undoing. Change must come from within Islam itself if there is to be any real lasting change. Otherwise I see no other outcome than extreme and horrific methods. In many ways I hope that neither I nor my grandchildren live to see that day. But in other ways I hope they can live in a world without that threat. God forgive the brave souls that may ultimately make that decision.

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:47 pm 36. Lifeofthemind:

@Giya,
Sorry if this sounds blunt but the answer is No.
Just look at the wiki article on religions and you can find 30 extinct forms of polytheism. Civilizations die and religions die. Greek or Roman Olympian religion is dead, finito, kaput. Neo-pagan revivalism does not mean the old religion is really still around. The ancient Egyptian religion is gone and if twenty people meet in a basement to revive it after renting The Mummy that does not change anything. The Celtic, Norse, Sumerian and Babylonian religions are gone. Being included in a Dungeons and Dragons Guide is not a sign of continued existence. These were major civilizations and fully developed living faith systems.

Islam survives on inertia, when it is perceived as a failure then it will implode. Poverty is not what leads to a perception of failure. Control over people and territory and failure by the terms it uses to challenge other communities count. When Islam can be safely ridiculed, as other religions are safely ridiculed, then it will wither away.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:12 am 37. ADE:

L3

“Cultural identities are built upon a foundation of cultural narratives.”

True. And if your narrative is that “you are the best of people”, and you find that you are the “sewer of the world” (to quote Morton, and your narrative is “who will rid me of this troublesome woman” and somebody does rid him, you get to the present Islamic violence.

There is a third possibility to words and arms – sidestep. Put forward a different narrative. No discussion, no fighting, just a sidestep. The West has been doing this (putting forward a different narrative) for the last 100 + years. This is what is killing Islam.

Here’s a sample of a sidestep: Dolly Mag discussing the important points of bikini selection.

As a narrative, I quite like it. So do the Arabs, and that is what the Imams don’t like.

Incidentally, Giya, religions (aka as a narrative) are not killed, as you correctly state. They just become irrelevant, boring, and fade away, such as the Egyptian, Greek and Roman Gods.

And, you’d have to say, Christianity.

C’mon Isalm, hurry up. Just die.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:27 am 38. whiskey:

Wretchard, never have you been so absolutely, demonstrably wrong. Wrong on everything you’ve written on this thread.

Of course all Muslims hate Jews. Most Germans had never met a Jew, and yet worked wholeheartedly with all their passion, along Frenchmen and Belgians and Norwegians and Dutch and Poles and nationalities to exterminate Jews.

Your average Muslim if he could would bash a Jewish five year girls head in. They certainly honor the man who actually did it — who is a hero to all Muslims across the globe.

You don’t understand Muslims, Wretchard. They did not wake up in the morning like a “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” character and say, “let’s be evil today.”

No, they are a seething mass of conflict, hatred, envy, violence and brutality because of the polygamy and Big Man system that underlies the Society. Which needs s convenient enemy and scapegoat. As long as Muslims are Polygamists they will be brutal, violent, depraved, and poor. Mohammed could descend from Heaven, and give lectures every day performing miracles on the need for peace, brotherhood, and toleration plus good treatment of Jews. It would make not a bit of difference. Meanwhile if you could turn a switch and make all Muslims suddenly have come from a monogamous, non-Big Man society, even with all the stuff in the Koran, they would not stir themselves to go hurt Jews, even if they did not like them much.

It is the POLYGAMY that is the key here, as it was the frustration of crushed middle class aspirations in Europe (seeking a sadistic outlet) that led to mass murder. Even there it required the organizing genius of Hitler, without him there would have been no Holocaust because no one else hated enough. But the Muslim world is filled with HATE. Because of the polygamy — a whole class of male losers and the winners raised by angry, beaten, resentful sex slaves all rivals against one another.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:54 am 39. Peter Boston:

fred brought up the curiosity issue and it is something worth pursuing a bit further.

That we are discussing Judaism in 2008 is an historical phenomenon. Judaism today is substantially the same as Judaism of 3,000 years ago. When you consider that Jews have never proselytized, and were never a significant economic, political or military power, and were battled, conquered, and enslaved upteen times by much more powerful civilizations the overwhelming historical probability is that we should not be discussing Jews at all.

Judaism “should” have disappeared by assimilation into Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian or Babylonian culture hundreds of generations ago. If you were handicapping gods in the Mediterranean back in the 1st millennium BC your clear font-runner would have been Ba’al. You would not have given Jehovah a 10000:1 shot of surviving anywhere for more than a couple generations.

Regardless of the conclusion you may reach, if you are a thinking person, you have to wonder why Judaism could possibly have survived substantially intact for hundreds of generations when simply being Jewish was a death sentence for many of those generations.

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:24 am 40. ADE:

Oh Peter

Judaism survived because it was hated.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde (”there is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that not being talked about”), there is only one thing worse for your religion than being hated, and that is being ignored.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:34 am 41. ledger:

Dennis Prager asks why the Mumbai attackers would waste precious manpower, ammunition and operational planning to kill and torture a handful of Jews. –Wretchard

Why would a terrorist group of Islamists from Pakistan whose primary goal is to have Pakistan gain control of the third of Kashmir that belongs to India and therefore aimed to destabilize Indians major city devote so much of its efforts — 20 percent of its force of 10 gunmen whose stated goal was to kill 5,000 — to killing a rabbi and any Jews with him? –Dennis Prager

It’s simply numbers. It would be doubtful one hirabi terrorists could ensure the killing of all in the Jewish House.

One would be too little two would be the minimum (remember the “buddy system”). The rest Hirabi were paired and sent to do as much damage to India as possible. The Jews were just a bonus.

As for some “news outlets” explaining that the captured Hirabi said he tried to target “Jews and whites” I have my doubts. That’s just taqiyya used for Middle Eastern consumption and a method of trying to save his skin. The gang was in India to destroy it or destroy as much as possible.

Unfortunately, they proved quite successful. It’s is doubtful that Indians will have the stomach to fight back in any meaningful fashion. They will probably suffer more losses as time passes while its enemy grows stronger.

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:53 am 42. wildernesscalling:

WOW, great thread, ADE you need to listen to your soul, there is a reason Judaism and Christianity have last so long and spread so wide, it’s never too late for you…

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:54 am 43. wretchard:

The HP programmable calculators were distinguished from their cheaper competitors by a stack. A stack is a last in, first out structure where you can push things in at the top and pop things up as you remove the uppermost layer. The HP 9100 had a three level stack with registers X, Y, and Z. The cheaper calculators had a stack of depth 1. Memory Store and Memory Recall. Once you overwrote what was in memory it was gone, replaced by the last value.

Some people and cultures are like that. They remember only the last thing they hear and in consequence, their consciousness is externally imposed. Things are as last described to them by some demagogue, trusted person or show on TV. They get up every day with a new program in their heads. They don’t have a register where they can compare the latest value to something in their stack and decide whether to push the new value — or a derived value — in.

I used to think that cultures with a stack depth of 1 were pitiable; that they were tools of demagogues. But I also began to realize that having a deep memory store has its own perils. Hate requires memory, either personal or institutional. A goldfish can never write poetry or create mathematics, but a goldfish can never hate. We recognize the perils of memory abuse in our garbage collection programming routines. When the objects we create in memory have no further we know it is good practice to destroy them. Otherwise they use up resources and can corrupt other processes. Poor memory management is one reason why bad operating systems crash. The reason Ctr-Alt-Del helps is it erases the current memory.

Some cultures have almost no institutional memory. The Philippines for example has completely forgotten the depredations of the Imperial Japanese Army. Sixty years ago a Japanese man could not walk 150 meters without being set upon by bolo wielding civilians. Today he is greeted with the friendliest, and unfeigned smiles. The old men have died. The young men don’t remember. Sad you say; but good in this: the goldfish cannot hate.

But in contrast, no institution remembers things better than the major religions. Christianity, Judaisim, Islam and Marxism remember the rivers of Babylon; what Cain did to Abel; what happened in Golgotha; what Columbus found in America. Islam dreams of the Alhambra; it dreams of al-Quds. And while memory permits knowledge, the downside as I have taken the pains to argue, is that it hosts corrupted objects; it lets uncollected ideas from yesteryear haunt our consciousness. All of these human memory machines endeavor to remember; what we should also understand is that they know how to forget. In the Catholic Church, the censor lirorum is to the institution what confession is to the individual; while forgiveness is not the same as forgetting, they work to the same end. Institutional hatred can be extirpated; group memory can be blanked. The canon is purged of apocrypha. Nothing can survive in the individual human heart that can make a young Muslim man travel thousands of miles to torture and kill a family he’s never seen. That kind of hate survives only in ideology; in the corrupt fireside tales kept alive by omission. Islam must manage its memory before the world goes Ctr-Alt-Del.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:01 am 44. Barry Meislin:

Please, please, PLEASE ignore us.

(Pretty please?)

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:05 am 45. ADE:

wilderness

I know. I like Christianity. The above line was a challenge to the Arch Druid, Rowan Williams. I think the Catholics will win. I will rejoice, even though I don’t believe.

Thanks.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:13 am 46. ADE:

Great follow-up, W

“Islam must manage its memory before the world goes Ctr-Alt-Del.”.

Islam cannot do this. Memory management in Islam is death for Islam.

What does Ctr-Alt-Del look like in the Islamic world? Girls driving cars, the sound of girlish laughter, music, jokes, happiness, sadness, humanity.

Is this so terrible? The Imams think so. Because they die too.

So they enlist the “a young Muslim man [who] travel[s] thousands of miles to torture and kill a family he’s never seen.

The new White Man’s Burden? Managing the demise of Islam.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:01 am 47. wretchard:

I don’t think it is possible to manage the memory of a billion or more people. They have to do this themselves. What we have achieved — and are on the verge of forgetting we achieved — is helping the people of Iraq manage their memories. The success has not been complete, but I think Petraeus’ core idea is correct. We infidels cannot tell the Muslims what to think; but what we can do is provide shelter for thinking Muslims. I argued in an earlier thread that a “Political Warfare Executive” for the GWOT would resemble nothing so much as a witness protection program.

If you think about it, Wahabism is a meme cleansing (or meme corrupting) organization. Their job is to hunt down dissent within Islam with oil money, tame imams and thugs. They insinuate themselves into every Muslim community and overthrow the easy-going traditions (as in Kosovo) and replace them with their memory store. They upload themselves. They are like a virus that destroys hostile code. The best way to counter them is not to send missionaries — although we can do that — but to enable their dissenters to survive.

This is exactly what the Surge did. It provided security for the guys who resisted al-Qaeda. The results speak for themselves. If we can do this in the field of ideas, many Muslims will decide to stop hating the Jews on their own. And that is a far, far more effective way than exhorting them to do it.

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:19 am 48. Peter Boston:

I think that awareness of ideas, how they develop, how they propagate, and how they hang around long enough to shape a culture, or a civilization, is the most fascinating aspect of being human.

One answer to the question I posed previously is that Judaism, or more specifically the totality of the Hebrew Bible, has survived the millenia intact because it contains the blueprint for just and peaceful human civilization. Even if one chooses to view the Hebrew Bible only as literature some Big Ideas that stand out are that sentient beings are complicated and prone to act on emotions, life is difficult and requires effort, and that every individual is responsible for his behavior to every other individual.

The Hebrew Bible is not the sole provenance of those ideas but I believe it’s the first package that came with assembly instructions. To continue the analogy, Christianity published those instructions to the world.

Is it merely coincidental that Jesus existed at precisely the only time in human history that the Big ideas of the Hebrew Bible could have propagated so quickly across the Mediterranean? Pax Romana, the infrastructure that made travel possible, the popularity of stoicism and its concepts of virtue only coexisted for the briefest of time.

Is it merely coincidental that Muhammed existed at the only time in human history that nomads from the Arabian desert could have survived outside that enclave? The Mediterranean Roman Empire had fragmented into warring tribes, the Byzantines and Persians had fought each other for 200 years to the exhaustion of each. There was no opposition.

The Judeo-Christian tradition prospers because it touches the human desire to live peacefully. Islam prospers because chaos has preceded it. Nothing has changed.

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:20 am 49. ADE:

Some things are too easy:

Peter B
The Judeo-Christian tradition prospers because it touches the human desire to live peacefully.
Complete confusion of cause and effect. The human desire to live peacefully causes the Christian (Judeo dliberately ommitted) tradition to prosper.

Some things are too hard:
W
I don’t think it is possible to manage the memory of a billion or more people.

We don’t have to. They want to be where you are, Wretchard. They’ll remember you. too

Just as the Russians wanted denim, the Islamics want to be modern. Not the gobshite Imams, but the drop dead gorgeous Iranians in their mini skirts (no ref available, but I remember, I remember).

As for our own Ctrl-Alt-Del, remember, we have won.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:45 am 50. ADE:

Peter

Apologies I was a complete prick. You were right.

“The Judeo-Christian tradition prospers because it touches the human desire to live peacefully” is of course correct.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 4:08 am 51. winslow:

There have been several references to culture in this thread. Culture is the key. The analogy of the computer “stack” is excellent. My view is that various cultures engage in Darwinian competitiveness. Whatever cultures now exist are the result of successful evolution.

Jewishness and Judaism constitute a conspicuously successful culture. As such, unconsciously to their members, other cultures are threatened by the existence of Jews and their religion. The evolutionary success of those other cultures has been enhanced by antisemitism.

It is not personal.

Dec 3, 2008 - 4:59 am 52. OmegaPaladin:

A religion is defined by doctrine, practice, and history. Of these, by far the most important to non-believers is practice. How does the man live out life as a Hindu, Jew, or Muslim? If the Quran was absolutely pacifistic, yet Muslims still killed, would that make Islam a religion of peace? Obviously not.

Islam is as it does. If Muslims want to live in peace with their neighbors, then the doctrine will be emphasized accordingly. Sufi mysticism and Balkan Islam is much less influenced in practice by the sword verses than Malay Islam, which is much less influenced by those verses than the Saudi Islam. Encouraging non-violent Muslims is a goal worth pursuing, because it is nigh-on impossible to contain a missionary religion.

For those advocating excluding Islam as a whole, consider what would occur if we utilized a horrible purge of Muslims and strict laws against Islam in the rest of the world. Aside from the sheer immorality of extermination, how exactly will you determine who is a Muslim? What of secret Western converts? I hear over and over about the deceptive nature of Muslims. How do you know someone is NOT a Muslim? This is the same thought process used by anti-Semites, and not even a totalitarian dictatorship could achieve the complete extermination of an idea without sending us into a dark age. The only guaranteed solution is to eliminate humanity entirely. No humans, no Muslims.

I think the reform approach is a better option.

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:29 am 53. Storm-Rider:

We don’t need to outlaw Islam, just outlaw the totalitarian legal/political system of Islam – Sharia. Also, while we are at it, outlaw totalitarian legal/political systems of all stripes – Fascist, Nazi, Marxist, Communist, etc. etc.

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:47 am 54. Leo Linbeck III:

I love the memory management analogy.

We all need memory management, because we all need memory. Memory is important because it enables pattern matching, and without pattern matching we would have great difficulty distinguishing good from evil (i.e. virus detection), which is critical to long-term survival.

Garbage collection is the core of any memory management system. And the first part of any garbage collection system is garbage identification.

In the clash of words, garbage collection is performed by a range of mechanisms. In the Catholic Church, for example, memory management modules range from the individual conscience to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Papacy itself.

In the clash of arms, garbage collection is performed by a range of mechanisms. In the United States, for example, memory management modules range from the individual firearms to powerful, well-trained military forces and the Presidency itself.

I’m afraid as a society, we’ve paid too much attention to building capacity of arms, and too little to building capacity of words. Our institutions of learning were infected by a virus about 40 years ago, and our operating system failed to identify the virus as garbage. So it has stayed resident, and continued to grow.

Time to take out the garbage.

L3

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:48 am 55. Spindok:

Old Jewish joke:

In the days of the Cossacks a rumour began in one Russian village that a Christian girl was found murdered in the nearby forest. Fearing the inevitable pogrom, the Jews quickly gathered at the synagogue to pray and await further developments. Suddenly the doors burst open and the rabbi came rushing in and cried out “Everybody I have wonderful news! The murdered girl was Jewish!”

One could write a doctoral thesis on that alone I think.

Spindok

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:06 am 56. ADE:

Our esteemed host forgot what happens after Ctrl-Alt-Del.

There is a reload of the operating system.

Now here’s the question: has the new operating system any values or is it aethestic?

Well you know the answer to this. It’s just an operating system.

Welcome to the abyss.

ADE

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:07 am 57. Ruby:

Whiskey: Because of the polygamy — a whole class of male losers and the winners raised by angry, beaten, resentful sex slaves all rivals against one another.

At least in a system of polygamy, men do not need to be unfaithful to their wives; if they get tired of one they just take up with the other’un. In the West most divorce can be attributed to one or the other partner getting some action on the side, and divorce causes untold damage to the lives of children. And if the bottom line of your theory is true, that women are at a premium because a certain percentage of the good ones are taken off the market by wealthy polygamists, then we should see China demonstrating the same social pathologies that we seen in Muslim nations, because they have practiced gender selection there under the “one child per couple” rule and there’s a big shortage of females. But when’s the last time 10 Chinese terrorists hit a hotel in Japan?

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:27 am 58. twobyfour:

@ 56. ADE

What is aethestic?

Atheistic? Anestetic? Aesthetic?

It’s just an analogy. The program is Islam and it’s actually a nasty virus. Once it displays green/black screen of death, the only thing you do is to reboot and then remove from the system entirely.

53. Storm-Rider:

We don’t need to outlaw Islam, just outlaw the totalitarian legal/political system of Islam – Sharia. Also, while we are at it, outlaw totalitarian legal/political systems of all stripes – Fascist, Nazi, Marxist, Communist, etc. etc.

The outlawing won’t do much good. It would gain a foothold amongst asocial types. A forbidden fruit as it were. So you would end up with a subculture that would gnaw from within, like these days. I have some ideas how to deal with totalitarian ideologies beside Islam, but that would require serious guts to implement. Let me just hint it as… inoculation.

Islam — There are two possible outcomes concerning Islam (I don’t count the third which is submission and that is utterly unacceptable):

1) Replacement
2) Islam delenda est

I personally like the replacement idea, but events may make it unworkable.

It is not easy. Lemme give you an example.

During 40 years in desert, fellow called Moishe tried replacement and it was an uphill battle. People not only clinged to the egyptian tradition, but also reacted to some circumstances the same way as other peoples at that time (with some exceptions), namely instituting a sacrificial (human sacrifices) religion. Why would take volumes to explain. Moishe went against the grain and decided to institute a religion of life, despite all circumstances around that were in no shape or form cheerful. It took another 300 years within Judea’s proper for the religion really establish itself.

That is along time. Afraid we don’t have that much time. How much is anyone’s guess, but it may be in the range from few years to 3 decades. Then “delenda est” would be the only remaining option on the table.

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:34 am 59. rumcrook:

however you stack it, at the core islam is an evil religion. albeit practiced in a non evil way by millions. in the end its true nature asserts itself all over the globe in little ways such as the terrible treatment of women and the big ways like 911 or Mumbai or madrid or london or bali… it just goes on and on and I dont know how you reboot hundreds of millions of people.

what I do know is that i am sick of hearing how muslims are treated badly and this is thier defense.

its akin to the wife beater who says she made me beat her to death…..

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:48 am 60. Richard Fagin:

“An Israel which killed all its neighbors in a night and a day would lose its reason to live.”

Mr. Fernandez, that statement is ridiculous on its face, and is completely contradicted by Israel’s recent economic success and the most basic commandment of its religion, which is “choose life.”. You imply a complete moral equivalence between peaceful, productive, educated people who act in self defense, and the most vile, racist, dangerous tribes of lunatics on the face of this earth. Israel would like nothing better than to be left alone, free of its need to consume so many of its resources for protection against murderers.

Who’s the Jew hater here, anyway?

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:02 am 61. buddy larsen:

–have to interrupt my thread read-down; just read host’s #43 and need to holler three cheers for a writer who just gets better and better.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:05 am 62. buddy larsen:

do however agree with Fagin @ #60 –the Israelis and Israel-connected of my own personal aquaintance here in Austin are if anything frustratingly unwilling and/or unable to hate anything enough to make sense to/for my own sensibility.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:11 am 63. fred:

OmegaPaladin @52,

The Jews have never waged jihad against the rest of the world. There is no Surah 9:5 in the Old Testament. They are not a constant source of mayhem and death for non-believers. And neither are we Christians.

None here are advocating a campaign of extermination of Muslims. This is not the option we want. But today the margin for error is a lot slimmer than it was in 636 A.D. when Abu Bakr, the first successor of Muhammad, and his armies broke out of the Hijaz. They are gaining weapons of mass destruction and some of them are PROMISING that they will use them against the Jews and Christians. If they use them, our hand is forced. “And the hand of every man shall be against him.”

If the horror of extermination is brought home to dar al Islam, they brought it upon themselves.

As it is, I most certainly do believe we should not allow Muslims in our countries and societies. To allow them to immigrate to dar al Harb was as bad a mistake as we’ve ever made. At the very least, I think we should deport them back to their countries of origin. Mosques should be outlawed, and we CAN prove that Islam is a totalitarian ideology completely inimical to our Constitution.

The Jews are no threat to our existence and Jews have given much to our civilization, as Peter Boston and others have pointed out.

One last point… “Hate” is not, per Aquinas, a bad emotion. What makes it toxic is the object it is directed at. When you attach hate to the wrong object you get corruption. Hate is an appropriate emotion when it is directed at evil and even evil individuals. Hate is an appropriate response to a real and moral threat.

One of the great tragedies of our history has been how Jews have been scapegoated. And just to head off the moral equivalizers at the pass, I am not scapegoating Muslims. I am not putting my projected, vile inner conflicts on to Muslims. They bring it all to the table and have a substantial history of mayhem and murder. If they did not do this, I would no more notice them as I would a dead squirrel on the side of the road as I drive in to work. They just will not live and let live with other cultures and religions. They have a mandate to dominate us.

I for one will not roll over and just let them insert their toxicity and dominance into my world. This is one case where “turning the other cheek” is not an appropriate response.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:24 am 64. Mongoose:

Just an observation, and I don’t have the time right now to go into it, but in this thread folks seem to be commingling _- perhaps even confounding — several immensely critical concepts. The Concepts: Civilizations, cultures (small “c” with mores,etc.), Culture (Large “C”, with codified moralities, institutions, etc.), Nations, and even “race” (in an earlier sense of the term).
Even the notion of “Religion” becomes obscure here if we are not clear.

Perhaps that needs to be cleared up a bit in this thread.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:42 am 65. Storm-Rider:

Fred,
Good discussion on hate – I agree with you. Hatred its self is not evil; hatred of evil is always a good thing, and it is obligatory for good people to actively oppose and hate evil in whatever guise.

“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.” Proverbs

The point is worth elaboration because Jesus commanded us to love our enemies. So, we hate the evil within the enemies of our life and freedom; but we shouldn’t hate the evil-doer him/herself – even as we sometimes must destroy their earthly bodies in war. My father destroyed the lives of his enemies on the Island of Saipan in 1944. Dad pulled the trigger often; but he didn’t celebrate it, and he didn’t like to talk about it. God rest his courageous soul.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:24 am 66. Kirk Parker:

Richard Fagin (#60),

Either you misunderstood Wretchard, or I did. I took him to mean, “If Israel committed that kind of atrocity, it would lose its soul”, and certainly not “Israel lives only to hate its neighbors.”

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:39 am 67. Roland THTG:

The Concepts: Civilizations, cultures (small “c” with mores,etc.), Culture (Large “C”, with codified moralities, institutions, etc.), Nations, and even “race” (in an earlier sense of the term).

The problem lies, for the most part, in Islam’s commingling and confounding of these concepts. You can’t take issue with one facet without you take issue with the whole enchilada.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:50 am 68. Joe the Bumbler:

I honestly don’t think the average Muslim hates the Jew, except as a convention. It’s apparently true that most of Muslims live outside the Middle East and I’ll wager many have never seen a real Jew in their lives.

One minor observation, most rabid anti-semites are people who never saw Jews. In Europe there were countries where there hadn’t been jews for hundreds of years, yet they were hate, they appeared as evil men in several stories, etc.

There’s a reason for that: the distance from the actual object of hatred makes hate increase. If you don’t know it then you exaggerate your fears. If you see your object of hatred/fear up close you’d realize it is actually harmless.

However, I agree that most jew-hatred is irrational and does not have a cause.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:51 am 69. Charles:

Matthew 23:27-37 (New International Version)

27″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33″You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37″O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:58 am 70. Mongoose:

I was talking about our “discussion”, our “ontology” as it were.

The issues here with Islam would be how it “maps” to that, and how this is different than other “mappings”.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:59 am 71. Charles:

36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
……….

This was written +-31 AD. The Temple was destroyed in +-70 AD.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:02 am 72. fcal:

“… Anti-Semites usually hate both the Jew and the Biblical moral code.
Mr. Prager points out in many of his lectures that during medieval times the Christian religion was contaminated by anti-Semitism and this is still true in Europe to some degree even today…
… the Christian American colonists transformed themselves into Judeo-Christians; and our culture has therefore not fallen into anti-Semitism….”

European anti-Semitism was 10% cultural/religious and 90% economical envy. Both (national)-socialists and communists emphasized the latter. See also Marx and Engels, they considered capitalism to be a Jewish disease afflicting society.
A medieval chronicle from Strassburg quotes the following:
“If Jews were poor and our lords and masters were not in their debt, one would not send them to the stake.”

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:15 am 73. fred:

fcal @72

Because Canon and Civil Law during the Middle Ages in Europe forbade Jews from being in the trades and most other occupations, they were herded into banking and retail/importing. And they were hugely successful. Hey, more power to them. But there were kings, dukes, and lords who had borrowed from Jewish bankers and either could not or would not pay the notes. Sometimes their solution was simply to whip up the mobs against the Jews and get it all started.

But, yes, envy of economic success played a very large role in Jew hatred. Today, outside of Islam, Jew hatred is generally concentrated among the collectivists. Oh, and there actually is a significant gathering of Jews who hate Jews too. Typically, those self-hating Jews are collectivists who have swapped faith in Yahweh for faith in Marx and Gramsci.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:20 am 74. Storm-Rider:

fcal,
Good point on envy as a cause of anti-Semitism; and in today’s world that also explains much of the anti-Americanism out there – because we are successful as a nation.

In addition to envy, there is hatred of the Judeo-Christian moral code, i.e.: Theophobia, and all Jews and Christians who adhere to it. Fred is correct; there are some Atheistic, Theophobic Marxist Jews (and non-Jews) who hate the Biblical moral code of their ancestors.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:43 am 75. buddy larsen:

Storm-rider is right. Name a tyranny –i mean a real one –that has not attacked the Jews. It’s a sure sign.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:49 am 76. Alexis:

Although the pogrom is not overrated as a central story for secular Jews, the pogrom is not so important for religious Jews. Religious Jews feel terrorized by the story of Jezebel. The Phoenician princess not only subverted worship of G-d by introducing pagan idols, but subverted the basic trust in one’s own identity that is essential to any religion.

Jezebel’s false accusation against Naboth is a central story in Judaism, for that false accusation of blasphemy (which was an accusation of treason that also essentially meant calling Naboth a Jew hater) cuts to the essence of traditional Jewish fears of intermarriage. The fear of the foreigner is at least partly a fear that the partially Judaized foreigner would proclaim that a blameless Jew is not really a Jew. (This is also why Jews bristle at Paul referring to Christians as “true Jews”.)

There is a reason why Elijah is a central hero for Jewish children. He stood up to Jezebel and he confronted the priests and prophets of Baal. He stood up for G-d fearing Judaism, as opposed to the greedy McCarthyism of a foreigner who resorted to false accusation to get what she wanted.

Take away all the pogroms in the world and Judaism would still exist because Naboth’s martyrdom is still remembered.

Dec 3, 2008 - 11:20 am 77. Eggplant:

Wretchard quoted:

“The question echoes one from World War II: Why did Hitler devote so much time, money, and manpower in order to murder every Jewish man, woman, and child in every country the Nazis occupied?”

The timing of the Holocaust is interesting. Hitler initiated the invasion of the Soviet Union (Unternehmen Barbarossa) on 22 June 1941. Unternehmen Barbarossa was seriously bogged down after the Germans lost the Battle of Moscow. Hitler essentially gave up on his own general staff when he removed Walther von Brauchitsch as his commander-in-chief on 19 December 1941. Hitler then assumed personal command of the Wehrmacht thus assuring Germany’s utlimate defeat (all doubt was removed after Germany’s defeat in the Battle of Stalingrad on 2 February 1943). The decision to bring about the Jewish Holocaust occurred at the Wannsee Conference on 20 January 1942 (a Nazi policy towards wholesale murder was ambiguous before that time).

Note that the formal decision to exterminate the Jews happened when Germany’s victory was in serious doubt but Germany’s fate was not yet sealed.

My analysis of this timing is that Hitler decided to promptly exterminate the Jews through industrialized murder only after it became clear that he might not be able to slowly destroy them within a triumphant Nazi empire. Also, Hitler’s decision to initiate the Holocaust meant there could be no turning back from WW-II, i.e. Germany had to achieve either total victory or total defeat. This was a remarkable decision given that Germany’s prospects for victory were very much in doubt at that time.

Leo Linbeck III said:

“my wife … cried when she saw The SpongeBob SquarePants Movie…”

That really pegs the “Oh Wow” meter. I guess she found that scene where SpongeBob and Patrick got out from under the lamp an emotive experience.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:09 pm 78. wildernesscalling:

I think most today over look or don’t even realize that the early hatred for Jews grew from the fact that Jews hunted down and murdered many of the early believers (they were not yet called Christians,) Paul is a good example of the early extermination dealt by Jews of the early believers (who were them self’s convert Jews), just think how bad it was in those first few decades and even later, Christians were considered lion food, Jew were everywhere but I do not hear much of Nero feeding Jews to lions in large numbers as he did the Christians, in the middle East Christians were persecuted by Jews long before Christians had the upper hand to return the “HP Memory stack” favor as Wretchard called it. This “returning the favor” is not a Christ teaching so one can say those that did those things to the Jews were not being Christians even if they sat in Rome surrounded by priest and pregnant nuns (yes that is a slap at Pope’s of that era) though Pope John and now his successor have greatly improved my view of the Catholic Church (I was raised in a German Roman Catholic family, I still have “Hail Mary” programmed into me, when I go to pray and eat I still make the sign of the cross) Just trying to say when hind sight is used to contemplated the past one needs to remember the nuance’s that help shape the events of those days.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:12 pm 79. dan:

a society saturated with anti-semitism should probably be destroyed or otherwise shocked out of its wits. the whole middle east needs a big goddamn shock. lets have CIA bomb the Ka’aba and frame the Chinese. if we could just have the national gaze directed somewhere besides this gigantic squalid islamic ghetto that’d be nice enough; i’m getting tired of these absurd people…

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:13 pm 80. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"”"Also, please consider the difference between the disproportionately funded Wahabi sect, and the considerably less extreme Muslims such as the Bosnians who could and did coexist with Jews.”"”"”"”

Michael Totten has written on the dramatic difference between Muslims in the Balkans and the fundamentalists.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:14 pm 81. Charles:

The fear of the foreigner is at least partly a fear that the partially Judaized foreigner would proclaim that a blameless Jew is not really a Jew.

……………..

A post that hasn’t been done well yet is the one about how barak and the msm snookered McCain.

First there were a barage of articles in the leftist media. Even the new york times ran front page speculations about McCain’s eligibility to be president.

Then came the senate resolution in the spring that made McCain eligable for president but made it conditional on several premises that included the definition of “natural born” as being uncertain. Followed by the line that obama inserted that included the outright lie that “wheras” some presidents were foreign born.

The drift of the resolution made McCain’s citizenship contingent on Obama’s citizenship. That is, if McCain called Obama’s citizenship into question—his own citizenship status could be called into question.

Obama’s citizenship was never questioned.

Yet Obama was born in Kenya. When he went to Pakistan in 1982 he was not traveling on a US passport as there is not record of his passport at that time and Pakistan was off limits to US citizens.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:15 pm 82. dan:

those’re interesting observations eggplant. i think i remember that the evolution of the idea had something to do with the einsatzgruppen SS using too many bullets to execute jews and bolsheviks and the development of mobile gasing units out in the western USSR in autumn 1941? that sound right?

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:18 pm 83. Eggplant:

Off topic: Interesting commentary on T-bills:

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/138413/Treasuries-The-New-New-Bubble?tickers=TLT,C,HPQ,CAT,ED,PST,UDN

Key quote:

“Put another way, all the talk about how “cheap” stocks are relative to Treasuries has done very little to compel big money to make the leap out of the “safety” of government debt, thus far.”

We are so screwed….

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:19 pm 84. NahnCee:

“a society saturated with anti-semitism should probably be destroyed or otherwise shocked out of its wits.”

B. Hussein and his leftist moonbats are anti-semitic, and I think “saturated” would be a pretty good way of describing the phenomenon. I’d love to destroy them, but maybe they’ll be shocked out of their wits at the same time as war comes to America … although equally it would be totally logical for the liberal left to blame the Jews and Zionists when Muslims finally get around to nuking NY.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:25 pm 85. Spindok:

@ Dan “those’re interesting observations eggplant. i think i remember that the evolution of the idea had something to do with the einsatzgruppen SS using too many bullets to execute jews and bolsheviks and the development of mobile gasing units out in the western USSR in autumn 1941? that sound right?”

High psychological morbidity/casualties among the einsagruppen had something to do with it. Sondercommando in death camps were expendable slave labor. SS units were highly trained assets. The SS were needed elswhere.

See Himmlers speech to the SS October, 1943 for further refernce.

Spindok

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:35 pm 86. Eggplant:

Dan asked:

“I think i remember that the evolution of the idea had something to do with the einsatzgruppen SS using too many bullets to execute jews and bolsheviks and the development of mobile gasing units out in the western USSR in autumn 1941? that sound right?”

Heinrich Himmler didn’t like shooting Jews because he thought it too messy (he preferred gassing). Prior to the big extermination camps at Birkenau and Treblinka, the murder process was relatively informal. Rudolf Hoess (commandant of Auschwitz) didn’t use the Zyklon-B method of murder until 3 September 1941. One could argue that Hoess’ success with Zyklon-B demonstrated the Holocaust was technically feasible thus enabling the Wannsee Conference on 20 January 1942.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:35 pm 87. dan:

speaking of obama’s birth certificate:

if there is anything to this story, which i doubt, and anything to the Leninist theory of Obamamania, consider:

what if he is ineligible for the presidency. they unveil his ineligibility just before the inauguration. bush is forced to extend his term. the left goes crazy. the big 9/11 hits. chaos & pandemonium! dogs & cats living together!

ha. if nothing else, this is an entertaining way to waste time at work, i tell you what.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:40 pm 88. Charles:

We are so screwed….

………..

I have heard the suggestion that part of the reason for the economic recovery under Reagan in the early 80’s was that the Saudi’s jacked up oil production in order to kill the alternative fuels industry in the USA. They succeeded. The alternative fuels industry collapsed. However, that excess production that collapsed the cost of gas — also spurred the economy because cheap gas is more economically stimulating than a tax cut.

Anyhow, so goes the reasoning.

Cheap gas prices then may be analogous to cheap–and getting cheaper– gas prices now.

Dec 3, 2008 - 12:44 pm 89. Charles:

speaking of obama’s birth certificate:

……….
American Thinker
Why the Barack Obama Birth Certificate Issue Is Legitimate

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:13 pm 90. Mark:

Leo III writes, after his wonderful account of the film screening:

“Cultural identities are built upon a foundation of cultural narratives.”

Wrichard notes that Western culture knows how to forgive and even forget.

Anti-semitism has deep roots and far-reaching roots in Christendom. But it has always existed to some extent in spite of the Christian message, not because of it. Christ is a Jew. The New Testament, in spite of the efforts of Marcion and others, exists in continuity with the Old.

Great writers in English have recognized the inherent stupidity and self-interest that drives anti-semitism. Chaucer’s irony drips from his portrayal of the cloyingly stupid Prioress and her telling of the tale of the murder of poor little Hugh of Lincoln by the perfidious Jews. In the Shakespeare’s ‘Merchant of Venice,’ Portia enters the courtroom and asks “Which one is the Jew?” Indeed, which of the two merchants, based on greedy behavior?

I am not surprised that anti-semitism has diminished so much among Christians. Christianity is a Jewish offshoot, and it’s full meaning depends ultimately on a study and understanding of the Jewish bible. Christianity’s meaning does not and can not depend on a hatred of Jews.

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:25 pm 91. Eggplant:

Charles said:

“I have heard the suggestion that part of the reason for the economic recovery under Reagan in the early 80’s was that the Saudi’s jacked up oil production in order to kill the alternative fuels industry in the USA. They succeeded. The alternative fuels industry collapsed. However, that excess production that collapsed the cost of gas — also spurred the economy because cheap gas is more economically stimulating than a tax cut.”

Charles comment has a “ring of truth”. Energy costs are the foundation of the economic pyramid. I believe the recent collapse in energy costs was due to our imploding economy. The price of petroleum along with other primary products like metals dropped due to lack of demand. However this collapse in petroleum’s price has one very unwelcomed side-effect in killing off alternative energy schemes. The people who bought into the tar sand developments in Alberta are having their pants pulled down. Solar and wind energy schemes were probably baloney from the start but that is now almost irrelevant (valid or not, solar/wind energy concepts are toast due to low cost fossil fuels).

We all know that Middle Eastern petroleum is a dagger pointed at our throats. We really need to come up with alternatives to fossil fuels. Supposably Obama took significant campaign contributions from Exelon (they provide most of America’s nuclear energy). I know it’s probably fantasy but I wonder if Exelon was the puppet master behind Obama’s election.

It occurs to me that Iran must really be sweating right now. Their whole economy was based upon selling expensive petroleum and even then they were hanging on by their fingernails. Their economy must now be in free-fall. Pursuing military adventures maybe their only politcal/economic option.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:12 pm 92. Eggplant:

Wildernesscalling said:

“I do not hear much of Nero feeding Jews to lions in large numbers as he did the Christians..”

The ancient Roman government persecuted the Christians because they would not acknowledge the Imperial cult, i.e. emperor as a living god. The Jews of the Roman Empire simply saw the emperor as another pharoah or Nebacanezar. Claims of godhood by the emperor was (correctly) seen by the Jews as a sick joke. The ancient Jews did what they always did which was hunker down and try to work within the system. It didn’t help them much given the whole scale exterminations that happened during the Second Temple Uprising and the Bar Kochba Revolt. At least they survived.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:32 pm 93. buddy larsen:

eggplant, a big difference –now vs the early 80’s oil price collapse –is, currently the mkt is still strongly ‘contango’, with futures higher than ’spot’, and then it usually ran the opposite, or’backwardizing’. A quick and broad interpretation might be that unlike 80s, when we were coming off the long Carter-Nixon-Johnson demoralization and regarded the nascent recovery as a (Reagan personality-driven?) blip, now we’re just the opposite, regarding this downturn as a blip.

On the topic of memory (ht maggies farm) see this fascinating report –before you forget –on what ‘perfect’ memory is like for those few savants stuck with ‘em.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:36 pm 94. dan:

so does anyone have a great explanation for that massive spike in oil prices now? did that have anything to do with tipping the economy into this collapse? please point one out if you could – i was persuaded by the rising india/china thing, but if that were true…?

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:37 pm 95. newtland:

After “WWJD”, the wisest Christian bumper sticker is the one that states:

“Christians aren’t perfect. Just forgiven.”

It’s why slavery has largely disappeared in the Western world.

It’s why anti-Semitism amongst Christians has diminished.

It’s the weekly (bi-weekly, at Easter, whatever) reminder that all have fallen short but that’s ok as long as you’re still trying that drives Screwtape bat guano and keeps America Whoville when you’d least expect it.

And makes me think that Something is up as re: this whole Israel reconstituted thing.

From Hamen to Hitler to Hamas, the hatred of the Jews stems from a single source. I’m told (and believe) that source loses in the end.

In the meantime …

Allah has some weeds in his garden. He either weeds them or we will.

Simple as that.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:38 pm 96. Charles:

He stood up for G-d fearing Judaism, as opposed to the greedy McCarthyism of a foreigner who resorted to false accusation to get what she wanted.
//////////////
agree to slam on Jezabel however imho its an unfortunate analogy to link her to McCarthy as he was neither greedy or wrong. His famous lines “are you or have you ever been a communist” are the sort of things that are standard on questionnaires for anyone looking for a security clearance to work for government. (Obama could not get a security clearance on his profile.) When NSA & KGB files were opened in the 1990’s they showed that the US government in the 1940’s had several hundred communist spies.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:48 pm 97. fred:

Allah, being Satan, has a vested interest in the propagation of the weeds in the garden. That’s why, in extremis, if they use WMD’s, we may have no choice but to burn the entire lot.

Dec 3, 2008 - 2:58 pm 98. steeple:

Charles, I believe that the thoughts were that Reagan got the collapse of the Soviet Union as part of the bargain as well of lower oil prices in the mid 80’s. He had to sacrifice many independent exploration and production companies, a lot of Texas real estate and banking and the Alternative Fuels business as part of the bargain.

Eggplant 91, couldn’t agree more. There are two swamps that need to be drained:

1) Taking Energy profits away from the tinpots like Chavez, Dinner Jacket, Putin, and the Saudis who are keen to hurt us. We can do this via a combination of Pickens Plan stuff as well as conservation. Unfortunately, we can’t do it all ourselves given the oil demands coming from others, primarily China.

If Obama is in tight with Exelon and can put together a plan to get nuclear power moving in the US, I’m all for it.

2) Do the same on illegal drug trafficing. We have to find a way to legalize in the best moral way possible before we end up having the equivalent of Northern Waziristan on our southern border.

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:08 pm 99. Eggplant:

buddy larsen said:

“On the topic of memory (ht maggies farm) see this fascinating report –before you forget –on what ‘perfect’ memory is like for those few savants stuck with ‘em.”

It’s a blessing/curse. That demon has a “spell of dismissal”. Tell yourself: “The only person who remembers is me. Everyone else has either died or forgotten.”

Dec 3, 2008 - 3:16 pm 100. steeple:

Dan 94, we have a saying in our trading business that the Market will take you to your highest treshold of pain. That’s what oil price had to do in order to get supply and demand back into balance. Fortunately, that price action has caused demand to drop and thus has led crude oil to fall by 2/3rds in price. Reminder to all of those who don’t believe that markets work.

It really doesn’t matter if the spike was cause by hedge funds, passive investors like pension funds, Chinese buying for the Olympics. The answer is likely yes to all.

One of our other overused industry sayings is that the best cure for high prices is high prices.

Dec 3, 2008 - 4:36 pm 101. steveaz:

#67. Roland THTG:

“The problem lies, for the most part, in Islam’s comingling and confounding of these concepts. You can’t take issue with one facet without you taking issue with the whole enchilada.”

This is where Islam overlaps perfectly with collectivist movements, like modern “Progressivism.”

Both conceive of “Culture” and “Society” as overlords that both Ummah and Dhimmi are beholden to obey. Because of this, both play at poetics and institute fatwas, or dogma, in order to define culture in such a way that power accrues to them, the attendant headmasters.

Neither awards individuals their rights to full determination. In fact, both presume that we Hellenic, liberated citizens in the West have chosen to join their respective confines.

Sharia assumes this, and so do Progressivism’s social engineers. Nancy Pelosi meeting Syria’s Assad makes a lot of sense if you make this apt comparison.

Both are Baathists, technically, but only one had put on a scarf to prove her fielty.

Dec 3, 2008 - 4:54 pm 102. bob:

If the Lord remembers all, He must have a heavy burden.

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:23 pm 103. wildernesscalling:

Eggplant, the faithful Jew as with the faithful Christian could not and would not worship the emperor, Please read Ruth, Daniel and other Old testament books. My point is true believers (Christians) could not persecute the Jews and be faithful, so in reality it was the human “Memory Stack” factor and as always the charlatans that profess the faith but only as far as it gets them what and where they want to go, this is also why many crimes are done under nearly all the flags of religion.

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:49 pm 104. rab:

<>

I always instructed my sales force to price our product to test what the market would bear.

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:03 pm 105. bob:

Some military or national guard folks should file against Obama, as their potential commander-in-chief. They’d have standing, no more screwing around about standing. Though the deeper question is about natural born citizen, not birth certificates, important as that may be.

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:05 pm 106. bob:

On the other hand, we shouldn’t forget Deuteronomy 7:1-6: Deuteronomy 20: 10-18: Joshua 6: 21, 24: Joshua 8: 22, 25; Joshua 10:40 and Isaiah 60: 10-14 (”
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste.”)

The Israelites wanted an empire too, but being squeezed, they weren’t able to pull it off.

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:40 pm 107. Charles:

so what happens when you have low oil prices, low interest rates and extremely loose fiscal policy balanced against the profoundly deflationary force of banks crunching their loans to assets ratios back from +30-1 to historical levels of 12-1

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:57 pm 108. Ruby:

Storm-rider: In addition to envy, there is hatred of the Judeo-Christian moral code, i.e.: Theophobia, and all Jews and Christians who adhere to it.

I’m a Theophobe.

Theo -> God

Phobia -> Fear

Theophobia -> Fear of God

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 1:7).

Charles: Obama was born in Kenya.

Take a good look at Barack Obama’s birth certificate before you waste any more of our time with this right-wing moonbattery.

He was issued a passport from the State Department based on that document right there.

The Honolulu hospital sent a birth notice to the local paper and this was uncovered by a Republican digging for dirt on Obama.

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:12 pm 109. fred:

Ruby, that’s not a birth certificate. That’s a certificate of live birth. Not the same thing. Sorry, it no work…

The actual birth certificate is now sealed by the Governor of Hawai’i, I presume awaiting a court order to release it.

If he has nothing to hide, the lawyers would have told him to allow them to produce it and shut the rest of us up. I’m from Missouri…

That photo is not proof. All of us want this matter settled, one way or the other. He needs to be forthcoming, and his pattern throughout his political career has been to not be forthcoming.

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:42 pm 110. Storm-Rider:

Ruby,

Theo = God

Phobia = Irrational fear

Theophobia = Irrational fear of God.

By inference theophobia also means hatred of God – both irrational fear and hatred of God.

Thanks for Prov. 1:7 – good and healthy fear of God.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:31 pm 111. Charles:

Take a good look at Barack Obama’s birth certificate before you waste any more of our time with this right-wing moonbattery.
………….
You need to keep up with the research when you talk on this matter.

Judge Thomas is bringing it up before the Supreme Court on Friday. If four justices agree that the matter is important enough for further deliberation then they will bring the matter up to the full court. If it were any other justice I would say the matter was too radioactive. They won’t touch it But not Judge Thomas. This would be a matter of honor to him. I trust everyone can understand honor in this context.

So let’s try again. Consider

American Thinker
Why the Barack Obama Birth Certificate Issue Is Legitimate

The documented that you posted is not even accepted by Hawaii as a legal birth certificate when one is called for. Why? Because at the time of Obama’s birth — people could be born in another country and still obtain some version of a birth certificate. Hawaii has three.

“Certification of Live Birth” that you linked to is an abbreviated version of the birth record on file with the Hawaiian Department of Health. The root document(s), could be: a) a true “Certificate of Live Birth”; b) a “Late Birth Certificate” with or without modifications; or c) a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.”

Sun Yat Sen for example had c) a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.”

Sun Yat-sen was born on 12 November 1866, to a peasant family in the village of Cuiheng, Xiangshan county , Guangzhou prefecture, Guangdong province (26 km or 16 miles north of Macau).

However, he is on record as having a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.” The “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth” was issued March 14, 1904. Dr. Sun applied for and received the Certificate, claiming he was born in Hawaii on November 24, 1870.”

Lets review the point again from above. The “Certification of Live Birth” is an abbreviated version of the birth record on file with the Hawaiian Department of Health. The root document(s), could be: a) a true “Certificate of Live Birth”; b) a “Late Birth Certificate” with or without modifications; or c) a “Certificate of Hawaiian Birth.”

Tha Hawiian official not only did not say that Obama was born in hawaii but he fuzzed over exactly the kind of original document that Hawaii has on file.

These are his words:

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

(notice again he doesn’t say exactly which of the three records he has on file and he doesn’t say that obama was born in Hawaii.)

To be distinct and precise in terminology, there is no official document called a “birth certificate” in Hawaii. The term is loosely used to describe a certificated proof of birth. (In fact, if you take a look at your “birth certificate” that you may have tucked away in a safe place, it probably says, “Certificate of Live Birth” at the very top of the form.)

The “Certificate of Live Birth,” sometimes called the “long form,” or “vault copy” birth certificate shows details such as the hospital, doctor or midwife’s names, witness signatures, etc. This, by the way, is what John McCain released earlier in the year to the general public:

So you have to ask why would the obama campaign spend $800,000 to avoid the release of a $10 “Certificate of Live Birth,” sometimes called the “long form,” or “vault copy”.

It should be noted that while there is that notice in the newspaper of obama’s birth–no hospital in Hawaii has a record of him being born there. The hospital that obama references in his memoirs as being his birth place had not been built in 1961. That came two years later in 1963

Why Kenya? Why do people say that obama was born in Kenya? Several of Obama’s family members are on record including his grandmother as saying he was born in Kenya. The Ambassador from Kenya is on tape as having said it is common knowledge in Kenya that Obama was born in Kenya.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:37 pm 112. buddy larsen:

Charles@107, don’t forget the truly insane “mark-to-market” FASB-thru-Sarbox self-immolation. because nobody can tell the emporer he’s naked, i guess must be the reason, this accounting standard, which could be suspended in a trice, is instead valuing banks’ long-term loan assets to the latest transaction (likely a fire sale or foreclosure auction at extreme mark-down) in their class –which means in a falling market that bank portfolios keeping devaluing, meaning ever more new capital needed to meet solvency standards. That’s where the bailout money is going, that’s why it’s never enough, because the banks can’t lend into the same deflation that’s already killing ‘em, meaning more demand destruction, meaning more asset deflation, meaning more runs on ‘marked-to-market’ solvency, meaning more bailouts, meaning less and less confidence as consumers begin to speculate on what these future federal debt levels mean for not only the future value of that new house that may’ve been otherwise contemplated, but also the future value of the currency, and the future value of labor (”Will I –or anyone –still have a job?”).

The alternative is to use the so-called “discounted cash-flow” model, which is standard valuation 101 anyway, but is now expressly forbidden by Sarbox (meaning Enron is finally “Enron” –the beast that ate Earth). Like i said, a phone call could stop the bleeding and run the DJA back up two thousand points in a week.

There’s something crazy going on.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:48 pm 113. Micha Elyi:

“In the West most divorce can be attributed to one or the other partner getting some action on the side,”

Either America is not part of your “West,” Ruby, or you’re just plain wrong. Pick one.

“and divorce causes untold damage to the lives of children.”

True, but until people like you get your heads straight about who is likeliest to initiate that home-wrecking divorce and why she chooses to do it, you’ll keep aiding and abetting the commission of “untold damage to the lives of children,” Ruby.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:58 pm 114. Charles:

Clarification:
Hawaiian law, at the time of Obama’s birth, allowed for FOREIGN born (i.e. outside of Hawaii) baby’s to be registered in Hawaii via a ‘Certificate of Live Birth’: [§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State…

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:10 pm 115. bob:

I used to think Obamer was born in Kenya, now I think maybe Canada, son of Malcolm X. Prove me wrong!

Leo Donofrio’s case is up to bat on Friday.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:10 pm 116. bob:

The mother going to the University of Washington at the time, and Malcolm being in town nine months earlier.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:13 pm 117. Storm-Rider:

Ruby,
Obama’s certification of live birth is a digitized fake.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_Xn_O-mM2sFk/SFFallFWDvI/AAAAAAAABiw/stmU2bPjvL8/s1600-h/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg

Read more here, and watch this video to get to the truth.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82503

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:33 pm 118. NahnCee:

Malcolm was “high yeller”, so with a white mother, a child would have probably been very pale indeed.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:53 pm 119. twobyfour:

While tangentially on the issue of religion….

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/12/russia-to-saudis-respect-is-two-way.html

Russia has one thing going for it–they give a birdie to the PC crap (granted, they intentionally obfuscate where appropriate from their POV, but that is natural, while PC was a KGB-invented device that was intended for turning a western brain into a mush and the bearer into a maleable jello–it is interesting how this is a really viral condition; while the original impetus is gone, it is on autopilot continuing the corrosion).

Dec 4, 2008 - 2:19 am 120. twobyfour:

Re Hussein and the BC issue…

Here is a wacky scenario that is being “entertained” in some circles–NWO kinda stuff.

1. SCOTUS won’t make a decision in time for FEC to decide the validity/invalidity of the election result, thus FEC would tend towards “the tribe has spoken”.

2. Shortly before inauguration, a detailed report with some hi-fi proof of Hussein inelibility would be “leaked” to the NME (also called MSM). It would create a constitutional crisis, but the Constitution needs to be upheld for a bit to facilitate certain steps, so the issue of Constitution being falsified will be put on a backburner, in fact, some form of committee may be established with agenda spanning months and months.

3. Biden would not take the job (he’s ok with VP presuming a light load, but POTUS is above his pay grade and he hates the idea of premature aging)

4. The next in line is Speaker of the House, which is… Pelousy!

5. She would create an interim caretaker government with her stooges (like Raid).

6. Soros will introduce another set of variables (machinations) that would result in a thorough financial crash in late February.

7. Civil unrest would result and martial law will be declared. Now the Constitutional crisis will get its proper play and in conjunction with martial law, it will be suspended indefinitely, a more “with-times” replacement pending. Posse comitatus will be a part of the package (suspension), but some issue may be resolved by asking for “help” and introducing UN “peacekeepers” that may have little or no prerogatives to mow down the scary rioting Americans.

8. Three categories of people will be introduced, with color coding orange, blue and yellow (a jump suit you will or may have to wear under certain circumstances).
If you are designated orange (the most dangerous enemy of state type of a criminal), you will be hauled right at the beginning of the martial law to a very special camp (about 140+ of them throughout the US, empty but ready, with barb wire facing inward and with industrial type of facility in the middle of it and connection to a railroad) and that would be your last 24 hours.
As a blue (also dangerous follower of the oranges), you will be done with as with an orange, but within the next 2 to 6 weeks, as it take time to “process” a substantial number of people populating this category.
As a yellow, you are a verifiable sheep, but that does not mean you are above the “law”. Any misstep (like not relinquishing your guns when nicely asked by your local comissar) would earn you a terminal treatment. Since the recommended size of the population thought of by involved “think tanks” a “good and sustainable figure with a low carbon footprint” is about 30 million for US (1/10 of 330 million), something has to be done. Presumably the oranges and blues numbered about 30 million, which would mean that there is still about 270 million to go through, before achieving the desired “good” figure. That would be achieved by decimating yellows the quick way (missteps) and by simply wreaking the economy to such a degree as to introduce the slow way–starvation. By the end of two years, the desired goal would be achieved.

That is the “plan”. Wacky? Yewbetcha. One thing though, there is really such a scenario in existence–w/o some details in the #1 to #7 (may not be Soros)–that was produced in one of these “think tanks”. Of course one may point out that in order for this to “work”, the crisis would have to be worldwide and the same “engineering” applied, else US would be seen as a snack for anyone with a moderate military might. I am almost sure that this has been “forgotten” by the scenario proponent(s) — undoubtedly convinced that other nations are inherently peaceful as opposed to evil USofA. Of course, the “plan” hopes to export the modus operandi to Canada and Mexico in a short order, but still, that does not cover the whole world.

A question may be put forth… is this a hallucination of a feverish progressive librul mind and thus impossible?

I’d have to say as the impossible part is concerned, no. Someone may attempt something similar, at some point. But several factors seem to be potent enough to make it fold shortly after the inception–there is enough of people that would create a credible resistance (including a chunk of military); and the general level of ineptitude inherent in progressive adherents makes it unlikely to sustain even if it was initially pulled off.

Dec 4, 2008 - 4:11 am 121. Ruby:

Charles: Clarification: Hawaiian law, at the time of Obama’s birth, allowed for FOREIGN born (i.e. outside of Hawaii) baby’s to be registered in Hawaii via a ‘Certificate of Live Birth’:

It was the Honolulu hospital which sent a notice of the birth of B.O. to the local newspaper for printing in Vital Stats, not a Kenyan hospital. Move along folks, there’s nothing to see here. Next time send us a real conservative to vote for. Someone who doesn’t take a $700 billion giveaway bill and ladle another $140 billion of pork on top of it.

Dec 4, 2008 - 5:15 am 122. twobyfour:

@ 119. Ruby

Actually, no. The notice can be posted by a private party, since there may be births outside hospital. I can announce a birth of my fictitious son tomorrow in my local paper and it WILL GET POSTED.

Second, NO Honolulu (or other HI) hospital has any BHO birth record and you can verify that by calling them.

You can deny, deny, and prompt for move along, but that won’t change the facts.

Dec 4, 2008 - 5:58 am 123. Ruby:

In 1961, the hospitals would take their new birth certificates to Vital Records. At the end of the week, Vital Records would post a sheet that for the news paper to pick up that contained births, deaths, marriages and divorces. The Advertiser routinely printed this information in their Sunday edition. This is not a paid announcement that his grandmother could arrange. This is information that comes from Vital Records – we know this because this particular section reflects those records. They didn’t have a provision for paid, one sentence announcement that would be included in the Vital Records.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:54 am 124. M. Simon:

The real reason why the State of Israel continues to exist today is because of Fatah and Hamas. If Israelis were left to themselves, they would likely have descended into a civil war long ago. Jew haters have almost certainly done more to promote the continued existence of the State of Israel than anybody else on the planet, certainly more than any “Zionist conspiracy” ever has.

When Jews celebrate the festival of Purim (Queen Esther in Persia – which is now Iran. And in Iran they still remember Esther, even if the current regime is not Jew friendly) they are commanded to get so drunk that they can’t tell the difference between Mordecai and Haman.

Any why is Haman given such an honor? Because his hatred solidified the Jewish community an prevented it from assimilating.

Jews recognized a long time ago that their survival as a culture depended on the hate of others. Ironic huh?

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:15 am 125. twobyfour:

@ 121. Ruby

“because in 1961 these announcements came directly from the Vital Statistics Office as reported by local hospitals, according to the researcher who found this information.”

Does not change the fact that no hospital has a record. Even if it came direct from vital statistics, “according to the researcher who found this information”, I can imagine 100s of creative ways how to get it in there. It is also possible that COLB was included in the lists, if it has been issued before the date of publishing, Aug 13th.

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:01 am 126. Storm-Rider:

Ruby,
Obama’s certification of live birth is a digitized fake.

bp3.blogger.com/_Xn_O-mM2sFk/SFFallFWDvI/AAAAAAAABiw/stmU2bPjvL8/s1600-h/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg

Read more here, and watch this video to get to the truth.

wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82503

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:07 am 127. M. Simon:

If Muslims are to be reeducated, what should they learn?

They should watch pornography on their cell phones. Drink liquor at the corner tavern. Eat pork from the Chinese take out.

The first is already well established.

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:10 am 128. M. Simon:

Wretchard,

A reverse Polish guy? Bravo. Dual stacks forever. (well maybe triple for floating point).

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:33 am 129. buddy larsen:

M Simon –doesn’t that skate perilous close to ‘circular reasoning’? –as in, to observe that Hitler forced into being (modern) Israel and the superpower status of USA & USSR. To attach import to such hazard is to nullify ‘intent’ completely, and let only the ‘what’ matter. ‘Spose that would for sure clean up all that insoluble ‘why’ mess –but it do make ‘objectivity’ subjective enough to become yet another academic toy.

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:53 am 130. Brett Blatchley:

It looks like most everyone has missed the real reason for anti-semitism:

Satan is real and he hates God’s Chosen People. He has tried to pervert and/or destroy them many times in history.

The insane jews vs. everyone-else conflict can only be understood in the context of God vs. Satan. Read the bible for this — Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, the Gospels and Revelation are especially relevant these days.

Dec 4, 2008 - 2:47 pm 131. Charles:

in the end you have to ask yourself “why does obama spend $800,000 to avoid issuing a $10 long form birth certificate. This is something everyone has to do from time to time. Its standard operating procedure. Even Hawaii doesn’t accept as legal tender the short form that Obama issued — in cases where a birth certificate is called for.

Dec 4, 2008 - 3:54 pm

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