101 Comments

1. Doug:

This item is NOT brought to you by Ben-Gay

The American Family Assn. is a Christian organization with a website called onenewsnow.com. It filters out the word “gay” in online reports and replaces it with “homosexual.” That sort of editing doesn’t usually get much attention. Those who might be offended aren’t likely to frequent the site. But it did create a stir when U.S. sprinter Tyson Gay won the 100 meters at the U.S. Olympic trials.

The Associated Press story, as reported on onenewsnow.com, read: “Tyson Homosexual was a blur in blue, sprinting 100 meters faster than anyone ever has.

“His time of 9.68 seconds at the U.S. Olympic trials Sunday doesn’t count as a world record, because it was run with the help of a too-strong tailwind. Here’s what does matter: Homosexual qualified for his first Summer Games and served notice he’s certainly someone to watch in Beijing.

“It means a lot to me,” the 25-year-old Homosexual said.

Sports dummies 2008 What were they thinking

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:05 pm 2. NahnCee:

I hope all of the raggedy old SOB’s die of heart attacks from their efforts. I think this is a *horrible* idea, especially when you compare it to efforts to educate girls in Afghanistan. So you will have a culture that believes in two things simultaneously: that’s it’s OK to encourage a 60-year-old “WAR Lord” (what does that tell you about his level of civility?) in his life-style of rape, pillage and plunder… and don’t you dare tell me that all those multiple harems and wives agreed to the marriage deal in the first place or are panting in excitement now that Achmed is erect again.

While the other thing the culture is supposed to believe in simultaneously is that educated girls is a good thing.

With all the masculine snickering and high fives going on, I’m pretty sure which part of this emerging culture is going to be encouraged the most.

I repeat, why can’t Afghan women be introduced to the joys of birth control without it being dependent upon goats like this war lord, plus are there women serving as soldiers in Afghanistan who can serve as role models to these poor benighted females?

And if we can’t give the poor women birth control pills, then maybe cyanide capsules can be slipped into Mr. War Lord’s gruel when he gets too frisky and demanding.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:14 pm 3. NahnCee:

P.S. I got so irate over the idea of imported viagra that I forgot to mention that I’ve never seen Pakistani’s trying to put down Indians here in the United States — that any prejudice seems to be left behind once they land in America. Or maybe Homeland Security is just doing a really good job of letting in only “good” Pakistani’s.

Yeah.

Right.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:17 pm 4. Herb:

Wretchard said: “The process through which a culture is able to believe two contradictory things at once is called syncretism.”

I beg humbly to differ. That’s the process by which a more powerful set of ideas (Roman Empire, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Western thought, Christianity,) adapts itself to local mores by absorbing local concepts and practices and therefore becomes a compatible part of the local culture. (See Santa Claus and the timing of Christmas, The timing of Easter, etc.) Smart major ideas sublimate that which does not matter (dates and festivals) in the local custom in favor of the Really Important (Grace, Salvation, the Divinity of Jesus, etc) The issue is the advancement of the fundamental idea, because it overwhelms the existing primitive scheme.

Islam’s argument with the the West has to do with the concept of God vs. the concept of allah. The two cannot work together. Every time, God wins in a fair fight. The mission of the Army and the USMC (as supported by the Navy and USAF) is to set up said fair fight.

It worked 1939-45 and in 1946-89.

This aint necessarily PC, but it is supported by my observations and readings of the last 20 years.

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:58 pm 5. elby:

Wretchard tells us, “The Times of India describes how the foundations of enmity against their subcontinental neighbor has been laid, deep and unshakeable, by the Pakistani policy of indoctrinating children from their earliest years into regarding the Hindu as only slightly less evil than the Westerner.”

Isn’t this what has been happening with the American educational system also? They spend years telling young children that Americans, especially white Americans, are only slightly less evil than, say, Gengis Khan (pronounced ‘jengis’ for maximum authenticity).

One time, as a child, I was taken to a zoo on a class field trip. I went through an exhibit that told us all about an animal that caused the most terrible destruction, in great gory detail. The identity of that horrible animal was kept secret until the end of the exhibit, where you came face to face with a mirror.

With an educational system like that indoctrinating generations of American children is it any wonder that so many Americans either don’t understand and won’t defend what it is that makes America unique and good?

Dec 26, 2008 - 7:59 pm 6. Doug:

“Isn’t this what has been happening with the American educational system also?”
—
Yes.
Great example.
The NEA/Democrat Machine is a Criminal Conspiracy.
Our son never spent a minute in their miserable classrooms.

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:04 pm 7. ledger:

I will grant India the right to retaliate against Packistan for sheltering terrorists. Now, take this information with a grain of salt. Debka reports 5,000 targets have been marked for destruction.

“Wednesday, Marshal P.K. Barbora, air officer commander-in-chief of the Western Air Command, commented that India’s air force had marked 5,000 Islamic terrorist targets in Pakistan.”

I would believe 500 targets or even 50 targets – but 5,000 targets would take a very large air force. It looks like Debka is dishing out more agi-prop but, who knows.

See India marks targets
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5796

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:42 pm 8. ledger:

India has about 1,430 aircraft and Pakistan has less than half that number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_size_of_armed_forces

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:43 pm 9. Anonymous:

I must confess that I could not read beyond the offering of four blue pills to the aged patriarch. Poor women. We are always the booty, always the focus of suppression. Whether it is to impregnate us or restrict us from choosing our sexual partners, we are the focus of men’s struggle to make their penis and sperm paramount against other men’s. Poor women, we hover in men’s eyes between cattle to be sown with seed and demons who wish to bear the seeds of other men.

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:49 pm 10. Leo Linbeck III:

“My fellow Americans, why are we giving Viagra to Pakistani warlords, while our own citizens are denied access to this basic need? It’s time we took care of our own, and stop spending our dwindling resources on those who cannot stand against the forces of evil. Let us not help to stiffen our enemy’s guided missile, but rather stiffen our resolve to launch guided missiles at our enemy.”

Creating dependency through pharmaceuticals. Isn’t that what nationalized health care is all about?

L3

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:52 pm 11. Gordon:

#9–

Sounds about right.

Dec 26, 2008 - 8:57 pm 12. Michelle Renee:

Wretchard reports that Islam (according to some scholars says Wikipedia) is a syncretal mish-mash of Judaism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism. But the same Wikipedia article on Syncretism, and another article on Christianity and Paganism, suggests that Christianity itself developed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, leading an underground existence as an illicit mystery religion until it underwent a syncretism with the Roman Imperial cult and Hellenistic philosophy in the 4th century. If one is able to rise above the conceit that one’s own beliefs are the very same doctrine handed straight from Jesus to the Apostles pure and undiluted, such as we find in the assertions of every denomination from Roman Catholicism to Five Corners Good Book Baptist, then syncretism is revealed to be a good thing. It was the mechanism by which the principles of Judaism were incorporated into a proselytizing force that evangelized the Western World, much to the good.

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:06 pm 13. Dave:

Hey Doug: Can you imagine American Family Assn writing about my Grandmother’s family reunion?

You see, the family name was Gay. So how come Alabama authorized Homosexual marriage in the late 19th Century? And how did the Homosexuals manage to produce all those Homosexual children who proceeded to produce
elebenty-eleven jillion grandchildren? Many of whom still carry on the Homosexual family name.

And BTW, what was the name of that Japanese
city visited by the Enola Homosexual? Paul Tibbets named his aircraft after his Mother who was a Homosexual you know.

(That is why God invented washcloths. To scrub the egg off faces.)

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:08 pm 14. twobyfour:

Aged patriarch… old goat…

I smell a bit of sexist, ageist and cultural imperialism!

Soo, so it would be okay for wiminz to decide their sexual partner (or partners thereof), but the moment the men have this choice it is a signal to voice… no, to shrill an outcry?

WTF, I may ask.

I am 5 short of 60, a monogamous male presently without a female. Monogamous because to handle more than one female at the same time is beyond my pay grade. You know… like… ahm, relationship-wise. I don’t need viagra, in fact I am looking for a monoandrous female with a voracious sexual appetite. Like every second day. Every third would do it too, am not greedy. Of course, raising about two sets families already, I may be a bit weary about the idea of waking up to a toddler’s cry every night. So, the female should have that segment of life behind her or nearly so, as well. 35 and above, thusly. What about 25 years old? In principle, I would not object, I love them all! But she would probably have this ageist image of an old goat, she would be a bit immature to my taste, and I would have to fall in love head over heels to accept a role of a poop-checker.

Am I a horrible critter or what?

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:20 pm 15. Dave:

Anonymous and Nahn Cee: Would the two of you please be good enough to answer a few questions?

Do you think viagra should be verboten or
do you think that it should only be available to males of whom you approve?

Is it permissable or impermissable to persuade Afghan warlords to be on our side?

If permissable, what form of gifts would meet with your approval?

If impermissable, do you have any objections to our enemies winning the Old Boy to THEIR side?

Last, but not least, how would you prevent the other side from passing out viagra?

Inquiring minds want to know. Thank you very much.

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:21 pm 16. twobyfour:

I hope that my outburst in #13 is understood as a first hand example to curb the sweeping generalizations. I did not confuse BC with a dating site!

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:31 pm 17. Doug:

…always worth a try, tho.

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:34 pm 18. Pete:

Viagra, did any of you ever consider how cold it is up in the mountains in the morning and so the old boy is getting up to water the trees and it’s cold and he needs to find that thang, it’s easier with viagra

Pete

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:39 pm 19. wretchard:

Does “winning hearts and minds” mean, in its most fundamental sense, cultural imperialism? Getting another society to see things our way. Or does it mean empowering people to go on as before? Facilitating the fulfillment of their deepest aspirations, even when those aspirations mean acquiring a harem? If “there is no right answer” to the question, does it imply faith in the proposition that given enough time and dialogue all values converge; that the lion will discover he is really the lamb and a little child can lead them?

If at bottom all men want the same things; if we are all innately noble beings trapped in a savage shell then “winning hearts and minds” is ultimately achievable by trying to get along. This is the ‘we are the world’ kind of hearts and minds outcome. But if “winning hearts and minds” really required the acquisition of a healthy fear of each other and a respect for boundaries then its first fruit should be a renunciation of all programs of hate indoctrination toward the neighbors. This is the “don’t tread on me” school of winning hearts and minds. Under this metric, the measure of success isn’t how much one is loved, but how much one is genuinely respected. The objection to the indoctrination of children is obvious; that to handing out viagra is more subtle. When you give an old man the blue pills you indicate what you really think of him; by taking it he shows what he really thinks of you.

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:44 pm 20. twobyfour:

@ 17. Pete

That is what night warmed up by fireplace and romantic candles are for.

Besides, they don’t grow trees there but poppy, and you don’t water fields in the morning, due to mountain dew.

Besides besides… no. I have to remember BC is not a dating site!

Dec 26, 2008 - 9:48 pm 21. Fletcher Christian:

Dave #15 – I am neither of the two people you are asking, but I believe that the only gift the West owes Moslem warlords is sunshine. Buckets of it.

#4 Herb – I seem to remember a military maxim (I think from the USMC) something like “If you find yourself in a fair fight, you’ve messed up”. The enemy doesn’t fight fair, and neither should we. There are many ways, other than the suggestion above, to arrange for the fight not to be fair.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:00 pm 22. Michelle Renee:

Wretchard, when the CIA guy hands the Muslim Warlord a handful of blue pills, he’s saying, “I’m not sitting in Christian judgment of your tradition of maintaining a harem, in fact, this will facilitate your enjoyment thereof.” When the Muslim Warlord accepts the blue pills he’s saying, “I’m not judging your culture’s mastery of biotechnology to be an affront to Allah the all-knowing.” Thus both of them are able to overcome their religious/cultural background to say, like Rick at the end of Casablanca, “Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.” And that, in turn, leads to the accomplishment of each man’s deeper goals.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:03 pm 23. SpeakEasy:

Passing out Viagra could have the opposite effect if the war lord in question “went out with a bang.” How could you ever convince the tribe you did not merely poison the old goat? Risky business indeed.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:11 pm 24. twobyfour:

@ 19. wretchard

Does “winning hearts and minds” mean, in its most fundamental sense, cultural imperialism?

Of course not. Even the most culturally static societies are fluid to some degree, incorporating ideas from other cultures, albeit in a more gradual and subtle form. This anthropologist’s dream about preserving pristine cultural groups (you know, cuz all cultures are equal) is a construct that has a little to do with human interaction on societal level.

But another extreme–to push your ideas how society should be, regardless of traditions in the targeted niveau, is smacking of cultural imperialism.

The “winning hearts and minds” means to introduce ideas that may be considered with a potential of working ultimately better, without overturning the societal order into an utter chaos in the meanwhile.

It is a fine line to walk, and it has a bit of fuzzy borders. One would and could not tolerate Thuggees, for instance.

As you say, it should be based on an exchange of “respects”.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:12 pm 25. twobyfour:

@ 22. Michelle Renee

Yep, something of that sort.

The potentially targeted female has an option to bash her warlord with a pan over his head, literally or figuratively. I hope.

The girls in school thing, though, that would be my line in sand.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:26 pm 26. Subotai Bahadur:

#2 NahnCee

With all due respect, I think we have to disagree on tactics, albeit I think we agree on strategic goals.

1) I think we both can agree that the traditional Islamic culture is incompatible with both the modern world and with our concept of the treatment of all individuals regardless of gender. I have to note that I have both sons and daughters, and more daughters than sons. I do not tolerate those who try to limit what my daughters can do. I am known for a certain bloody-mindedness on that and indeed a bunch of subjects.

2) Like it or not, our intitial encounters with the culture that supports the enemy have to take place in the context of that culture. We are neither able to apply the Scipio Africanus solution from the get-go, nor do we have the magic wand that instantly solves all problems that Hussein Pasha’s regime seems to think is hidden in the White House and which they will wield like Sauron and the One Ring.

3) Given that, our greatest tool is the exposure of the Islamic culture to a larger world; and that the greatest force to break down the barriers of the Islamic culture is the success of women. If we can get TWO generations of successful women [you need time to have those generations raising generations of men who are used to the idea of successful women, and to have them viewing attacks on women as attacks on the mother that raised them] we have a chance at establishing a culture that can resist the inevitable reactionary counter-attacks. No one said that this was going to be easy, fast, or even guaranteed to succeed.

4) If you view this as a long term war, then tactics such as these which convince the local power centers not to resist what will eventually be an introduction of that wider world, are acceptable. In the absence of the use of these particular inventive means of bribery, there would not be an improvement in the conditions of the people in these cultures that can be weighed against the use. There are no suggested alternative tactics. In the absence of an alternative to bribery [in a culture where bribery is the norm that alternates only with threats in all political interactions], we must use the most effective means of bribery. This actually is one of the more effective means I can think of. One of the strongest holds on someone is their libido.

It does give a new twist on a classic axiom of the Vietnam War.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:29 pm 27. Dave:

twobyfour: Mountain Dew? I thought they were tee-totalers. What is next, Stump Water or White Lightning?

And in respect to our host, do not forget the libations of lambanoc and tuba.

BTW: In World War II both Manobo and Moro women were noted for keeping Americano guerillas well-supplied with what they were fighting for.

Those who do not approve of dealing with Afghan Warlords were preceded in history
by those who heartily disapproved of Ranald Sliddell McKenzies’ use of Tonkawa scouts
who were noted for dining on dead Commanche body parts.

And were duly horrified when Filipino alsa masa vigilantes ate a dead communists’ liver.

Welcome to how wars are really won——or lost. If a little hard-on assistance makes an SOB into OUR SOB, thereby making THEIR SOBs deceased, then rising to the occasion
if the proper course of action.

Dec 26, 2008 - 10:41 pm 28. twobyfour:

@ 27. Dave

Lambanoc?
Lambanog, no?

As for mountain dew, meant then real thing, not the knock off!

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:01 pm 29. trangbang68:

I wonder if PETA is up in arms over the viagra distribution considering that goat abuse will spike considerably.

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:17 pm 30. twobyfour:

@ 29. trangbang68

Now that’s a twist on the goat thing! LOL!

Dec 26, 2008 - 11:57 pm 31. whiskey:

NanhCee — Let us both agree that we find the culture of polygamy and Muslim dominance of women repugnant, disgusting, and something to be changed.

How then can we accomplish that? How can we change a society where polygamy is in fact a tradition that far predates Islam itself and is embedded in every tribal and religious aspect of people’s lives?

Female moralizing, preaching, social ostracism, and other weak things that women in the West look to (because it works VERY well in the West, where men compete over women so far under lots of implicit rules, and thus female power is very strong)?

This way has been tried and has FAILED EVERY TIME. Neither sharply worded letters of regret, nor protests, or Obama’s “charisma” or anything will do the trick.

If you you TRULY want to change things in Afghanistan, you must change the fundamental culture of people in Afghanistan, and also Pakistan. As a practical matter this means …

KILLING about 70% of the men/boys age 10 to 80.

That’s about what it will take. Islam and the cement it provides for tribal structures makes it VERY resistant to change. Many have tried, all have failed. Only mass casualties on a horrific scale will change the polygamist, male dominated culture.

Since Women in the West would recoil in horror at the idea of killing people, let alone killing that many, we can say that the system of male domination, and harems, and polygamy in Muslim lands is not only HERE TO STAY, but will EXPANDED in the WEST, and Western Women will just have to don the Hijab in increasing numbers, as is already the case in Muslim areas of European capital cities.

The Oprah generation rejects violence as “male” and thus GUARANTEES the victory of whatever male non-Western force is willing and able to use violence in greater effects. At any rate women generally like or prefer some sort of polygamy. Single Women voted 70-29 for Barack Hussein Obama, who if he is not a stealth Muslim has gone on record to express his sympathies for Islam, and is the result of a polygamous father. Obama has written in laudatory language of his father’s polygamy and extended family, in his own book. This was no secret.

Women in the West are the “dog that did not bark in the night-time” ala Sherlock Holmes “Silver Blaze” story. Women in the West are not demanding that US troops go out and kill great masses of polygamous men, heck whenever a polygamist Muslim man is killed or captured Women in the West form the principal objectors. Icky “Non-cool” White old guys like FLDS polygamists are of course the exception.

Per Wretchard’s “Hearts and Minds” comment, the best way to win both is to kill so many of the enemy that the very idea of continued fighting produces horror. Not one brick was left on top of another in either the Reich or Imperial Japan. Nearly all of the young men were dead. Many women and children and elderly were left dead too. Everyone faced grinding poverty and starvation. This led to a permanent change. As did the marches of Sherman through Georgia and South Carolina, and the loss of some nearly 40% of the men aged 14-40 in the South.

If you want peace, there is only one proven way to get it, and only one proven way to change society. That’s to kill most of the enemy.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:17 am 32. Lifeofthemind:

@Subotai Bahadur,
Forgive me if I do not congratulate you for nailing it.

We either guide our policy by the most abstract level of technical power manipulation, as postulated in Realist theory or we admit that cultural and political values are part of the equation when we determine who we will fight against or for. Every culture has three possible states, the admirable, the intolerable and the tolerable.

The admirable evidence conditions that foster creativity, prudence, prosperity and tolerance. It is here assumed that those societies, by happy accident, comprise the United States and its chief allies. We fight to protect them and it is in our best interests to do so.

The intolerable societies are those who practice and propagate behavior so offense that we feel an obligation to isolate them and eventually eliminate their ability to freely conduct themselves. Now there may be practices that we find so abhorrent that we would invade an isolated and harmless place to force their people to change. What those practices are is hard to say with conviction. Slavery is condemned but if you practice it at home we shall possibly deny you a visa to enter America. Polygamy will not stop you from visiting but in theory will stop you from gaining permanent residence. There is evidence that ritual advocacy of human sacrifice and genocide will not assure a hostile intervention. However if you export your obnoxious practices there is some increased chance that we will intervene.

The third category covers the vast majority of humanity. While we do not condemn Tibetan Lamaism and even will send actors and cash to preserve its monuments and extol its beauty but no troops are going to follow. The same applies to Chinese peasants and the unfortunate farmers of Zimbabwe or the weavers of the Andes. We wish them no ill but unless they can show a value beyond the anthropological they will face threats on their own.

We do not approve of the Old Goats, we deal with them.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:28 am 33. NahnCee:

I would say that if it were me, I would make viagra verboten to Afghan men until they have a 50% literacy rate (including among females), have done away with the practice of polygamy, and can afford to buy it with their own money which they have worked honestly to earn.

I also hereby apologize to all gentlemen readers of Belmont Club in the 60-year-old range whom I most certainly did not mean to include in the overly broad description of “old goat”. The description of the war lord described him as looking older than his 60-years and with a creased face. It would surprise me if many Western men other than Clint Eastwood would have attained that sort of weathered effect at the relatively young age of 60.

Finally, I do understand the psychology involved and the attempt at political and strategic manipulation. I just think that any manipulation that involves further planned degradation of 50% of Afghanistan’s population cannot possibly be a good idea either in the near nor the far future.

As Abigail Adams wrote her own husband, President John Adams, “Remember the Ladies.” Surely the CIA would do well to do the same thing in their tactical efforts.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:34 am 34. twobyfour:

@ 31. whiskey

…you must change the fundamental culture of people in Afghanistan, and also Pakistan. As a practical matter this means …

KILLING about 70% of the men/boys age 10 to 80.

No. You must kill Islam. Not muslims. Only those that take arms of various kind, be it a sword or a pen, they declared a war and it is fair to fight it out with them and kill them in the battle field or in the realm of ideas. But not the others. Maybe you could live with it, but I couldn’t. You are talking about human beings, even if severely damaged by their culture, as some kind of pests.

Kill Islam. Figure out how. That would be the fundamental change you seek. Once that scaffolding is removed, the culture will change too. It may take a while, but change it will.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:34 am 35. old goat:

@ 33. NahnCee

Apology accepted.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:40 am 36. Lifeofthemind:

Genocide is not the answer. Conflict that might cost hundreds of thousands or even millions of lives may happen but twobyfour is correct. Islam was a declining faith a hundred years ago. Defeated and humiliated it was in retreat. Two things revived it.

First was the infusion of Trillions of dollars in oil wealth to, especially to the Wahabis. This was transformed from a potential nuisance to a real threat when the West meekly allowed the assets to be expropriated by Kings, Emirs and Colonels who should never have been recognized as legitimate sovereigns and allowed into the UN.

The second condition that worked to liberate Islam for a new age of expansion was decolonization. The policy itself was defensible and entered into with good intentions. Like many of Mr Wilson’s good intentions Self Determination, unless proceeded by genuine Democracy and cultural transformation, has proven to be a broad highway to Hell. The West entered into an extended bout of self-flagellation that was not only unjustified but crippled its ability to respond to emerging threats.

The protracted focus on the struggle with Sovietism distracted from paying attention to seedy madrases and many other problems but to some extent that was an excuse. We ignored them because some of us were bought and more of us did not care.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:00 am 37. Bobal:

Abigail went on to warn her husband John that the ladies might just might mount a revolution. Those two seem to have had a wonderful relationship, something like Ron and Nancy Reagan perhaps.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:11 am 38. twobyfour:

@ 33. NahnCee

I just think that any manipulation that involves further planned degradation of 50% of Afghanistan’s population cannot possibly be a good idea either in the near nor the far future.

Planned? Sigh. No one is shipping there Maersk or Hyundai containers full of viagra.

You don’t know his women. You don’t know whether they would feel degraded. You just presume, imposing your cultural prejudices on relationship between Afghan men and women. He may be a warlord, but he’s no taliban. You don’t know whether his women genuinely love him or not.

4 pills, 4 nights. “You want more? Well, ok, but girls have to go to school, that’s the deal.”

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:13 am 39. Doug:

Goat things come pre-twisted.
I thought you knew.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:23 am 40. Bobal:

I’d like to know what Jeremy Bentham might say about all this.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:36 am 41. twobyfour:

@ 39. Doug

Do dey?
I learn something new every day!

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:50 am 42. ledger:

The people in the CIA are not angels and have many flaws. They do things for sheer expediency. Maybe the CIA operative got some information that he needed to find some terrorists. Or maybe he is just stupid.

As for the out-dated film clip of the “history of Pakistan” I can’t even remember an East and West Pakistan (there is Pakistan and Bangladesh).

Unfortunately, because Pakistan is steeped in an an old religion, it’s economy has sunk to lowest common denominator. It traffics in drugs and is ruled by warlords. They export drugs, weapons and suicide terrorists.

I doubt that they will change their ways of life until something catastrophic happens to them.

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:20 am 43. Doug:

Dave:
“Enola Homosexual”
—
Easily Wins the most hilarious comment award.
LOL

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:40 am 44. Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » “Pak textbooks build hate culture against India”:

[...] Richard Fernandez, on the other hand, explores syncretism. [...]

Dec 27, 2008 - 5:10 am 45. Gary Ogletree:

Japan teaches that Pearl Harbor was all our fault. French academia teaches the US Army were the bad guys in WWII. Saudi clerics say we slaughtered Muslims in the Balkans. Meanwhile we pick open every scab in our history and proclaim our guilt to the world. I still prefer this tradition of self criticism to the others’. In all cases the indoctrinated young may eventually discover the truth and learn not to trust everything they are told. Big Brother is having trouble policing unacceptable information coming from the internet. Even with all the garbage, the sharper minds can sort out that which rings true. I expect that is the case for young people in Pakistan where, a couple years ago, an anti-jihad video went platinum as far as downloads go.

Dec 27, 2008 - 7:34 am 46. Lifeofthemind:

Meanwhile Hamas explores the syncretism of 7th century religious values and 21st century media manipulation while Israel reconciles sophisticated moral and ethical teachings with high powered explosives and equally advanced delivery systems.

Finally Israel responds and they should not stop until Hamas is incapable of threatening anyone.

Dec 27, 2008 - 7:35 am 47. programmer:

Nahncee sums up:

As Abigail Adams wrote her own husband, President John Adams, “Remember the Ladies.” Surely the CIA would do well to do the same thing in their tactical efforts.

programmer researchs the web and finds that our trusty scientists are working on “something for the ladies.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/science/10wome.html

************
Studies in rodents demonstrated that the drug not only gave male rats spontaneous erections, but also fomented sexual excitement in female rats, prompting them to wiggle their ears, hop excitedly, rub noses with males and otherwise display unmistakable hallmarks of rodent arousal.

Importantly, the females responded to the drug only under laboratory conditions where they could maintain a sense of control over the mating game. Take away the female’s opportunity to escape or proceed at her preferred pace, and no amount of bremelanotide would get those ears to wiggle. In other words, Annette M. Shadiack, director of biological research of Palatin, said, “this doesn’t look like a potential date-rape drug.”
**************

Dec 27, 2008 - 8:15 am 48. newyorkdude:

There’s something not right about the news reports that Viagra ™ is being used as a tool. The Indian equivalent of Viagra, Panegra, is available all over India in pharmacies at the equivalent of about 25 cents a pop, as opposed to Viagra, which sells in the US at 10 or 11 dollars a pop. Panegra is easily available, it’s nothing new, and surely men in India and Pakistan know about it. What’s the big deal about Viagra when Panegra is easier to obtain and much cheaper?

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:17 am 49. slade:

There’s something not right about … – newyorkdude

The Legacy of 2008. Take this Joke and Shovel It. I ain’t working here no more.

That’s about right.

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:25 am 50. Alexis:

MR:

As a rule, all (or nearly all) religions are syncretistic. I have some respect for those Muslims who recognize that their religion is in fact syncretistic. However, certain religions (and this very definitely includes Islam!) do not recognize the syncretistic aspects of their own religion, acting as if their religion had no elements of paganism in them whatsoever.

Muslims who criticize Christians for celebrating Christmas (which is a Christianized version of Saturnalia) usually fail to take notice of how kissing the Black Stone or dressing up the Kaaba in women’s clothing are practices that are not only pagan, but downright idolatrous.

I think most Christians will readily accept that most Christmas traditions have pagan elements to them. Muslims who accept that Islam does in fact have pagan elements (beyond perhaps the Satanic Verses*) appear to be few and far between.

*I’m not referring here to the famous book by Salman Rushdie, but rather to certain verses in the Quran that refer to Allah’s daughters.

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:50 am 51. John V:

“The process through which a culture is able to believe two contradictory things at once is called syncretism.”

No, I think that would be liberalism, or socialism … The belief that we can all be free, prosperous and equal while being completely under the control of incompetent, uncaring, dictatorial government.

To try to win the hearts and minds of the Islamic Neanderthals with Viagra and trinkets is far less effective than killing large numbers of them.

The throw-backs in Afghanistan only understand violence and fear and they are not about to buy into Western pop culture … Which by the way, has become so ridiculous that a lot of Westerners are abandoning it.

Consider that Western pop culture has been completely hijacked by street Negroes, rich blond air-heads and Hollywood’s Al Gore/Hugo Chavez fan club.

Dec 27, 2008 - 10:52 am 52. rrpjr:

#9 – Isn’t it, rather, that “women hover in ISLAMIC men’s between cattle, etc.” Let’s be clear about the status and treatment of women where and by whom. I don’t see many seraglios in my neighborhood. To the contrary — I see a lot of whipped men.

I think doling out some Viagra to gain cooperation and goodwill in the larger struggle to liberate millions of people and improve the lives of Afghans (which includes women, I believe) is pretty clever. Sounds like we’re finally getting the knack of this “hearts and minds” thing by adding a little “loins” nto the mix. And I’m not sure if it’s a given that the Viagra is accompanied by “high fives and masculine snickering”, a rather male-ophobic assumption (I don’t hang around men who do either) if you ask me. I can’t help but think that at least some women might also be gratified that their patriarch is performing at his best.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:00 am 53. vanderleun:

“Which approach will emerge triumphant — indoctrination or drugs — is something history will eventually reveal.”

Neither. Both are just manifestations of “The Strategy of Grand Dithering.” Both just put off the day when killing people wholesale is what is to be done. Sad really. Either way.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:08 am 54. Alexis:

Polygamy is especially designed to accept high casualties among men and boys. 70% casualties means that the enemy will regenerate itself to the same strength within a generation. Moreover, heavy casualties tend to harden the enemy’s resolve. Genocide is not only wrong, but it usually backfires.

Yes, we need to hit our enemies and hit them hard, but we also need to consider how to win the peace. Hard-hearted viciousness that emboldens the resolve of one’s enemy is the kind of mistake that al-Qaeda makes and it is the kind of mistake we must not imitate. Instead, victory requires a combination of hot and cold, hard and soft. It is at least as important to induce uncertainty and discord within the enemy’s ranks as it is to kill him. After all, the greatest victory comes not from destroying the enemy population, but rather from defeating the enemy in such a manner so that the enemy population may eventually become an auxiliary force.

Remember, the United States refused to bomb Kyoto despite the desires of General Groves.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:17 am 55. NahnCee:

newyorkdude – obviously the difference between a blue pill proffered by a superman American and an easily-attainable third-world pill from India might be ascribed to psychology and the placebo effect.

///

twobyfour – true, I don’t know the war lord’s women. But I’m basing part of my world-view of what’s going on there from reading about them the past few years. The story of the green-eyed girl from National Geographic is instructive for one.

And there’s another book written by an American woman who wanted to start a beauty school there that’s also eye-opening. The American female comes across as a flighty pushy dingbat, but the stories she relates about her students and their culture have a ring of truth. It’s a thinnish little book, prolly take you an hour or two to zoom through — title “Kabul Beauty School” written by Deborah Rodriguez (who married her own Afghan war lord for protection and then left the country for good when he got too pushy).

Read about those girls and their forced marriages and daily beatings and then tell me again what a good idea it is to give some male monster the means to rape them even more frequently.

Dec 27, 2008 - 12:01 pm 56. Subotai Bahadur:

#55 NahnCee

OK, this is not snark or sarcasm. If you have another idea, I’d be glad to hear it. I like inventive forms of physical or psychological mayhem.

Given that using force to wipe them out is neither politically nor physically possible; do you have an alternative tactic within our capabilities given the nature of what we are dealing with? As far as I can tell, there are not perfect solutions that cause no second order problems. Indeed, if the warlords were taken out, I suspect that in the sudden absence of the warlords, many of the women would be fighting for the return of the old system. It is what they know, it is endemic to the culture they were raised in. People are not all identical in thought patterns or their responses to trauma. I do not doubt that the current culture is a constant infliction of trauma, but their first reaction is NOT what ours will be because it is outside their entire experience.

The distribution of “little blue pills” in limited numbers to selected leaders we can influence using sex as a weapon would seem to cause lesser damage than other tactics. Further, sex is a weapon commonly used for espionage and as a mean of influence, even in their culture.

There would be some additional trauma beyond the baseline norm to those of the warlords’ harems who had not accepted their admittedly sad lot. To others for whom the system was the norm and accepted, by their standards there would be no additional trauma. There may be a group in between.

But as part of the longer goal, this is a step, I emphasize a step, towards bringing down the entire system and liberating millions more, and hundreds of millions more in later generations.

*************************************

As a comment not specifically directed at you, NahnCee, but rather at the modern generation in Western culture; there is a dangerous byproduct to our affluence and separation from the realities of life outside our fragile bubble. Westerners seem to believe with a religious fervor that matches the religions they no longer accept that there always exists a single ideal solution that will solve problems with no ill effects on anyone.

It does not work that way. Dealing with human beings, you are dealing with multi-faceted problems within individuals. When you are dealing with nations, with cultures, with religions en-masse, the cumulative facets are infinite. When you change one thing, someone is going to suffer.

We need to try to find the best possible solution that leads to a victory for our side. We try to use the most elegant solution that fits the problem, keeping in mind that we face constraints of our own, including time.

In the end, however; I and many others are “species chauvinists”. And we are “Cultural chauvinists” in that in the main we prefer the Western European culture to survive. Mind you, you can have multiple cultural attractions, as I would really regret the loss of Han Chinese culture being in part from there. And in the main we are “national chauvinists”. If, to survive as a free nation, we have to take anyone else out, they are history as far as I am concerned.

Finally, it comes down to this. I believe in Wretchard’s 3 Conjectures as a reasonably accurate description of our situation. We are in the tail end of the “Golden Hour”. This entire attempt to “spread Democracy” is our attempt to accomplish our survival in this true clash of civilizations short of nuclear holocaust. It may well fail, and we may be pushed to that last ditch.

And I have to note that in History, the barbarians usually eventually win.

So we do what we must, by the means available to us, doing the best we can.

As to the result, only the Great Blue Sky Tengri Nor knows.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:02 pm 57. Lifeofthemind:

The Motto of the US Navy in WW-II was, “The best we can with what we’ve got.”

Rumsfeld was right when he said you go to war with the Army you have.

If the US population was willing to impose a hundred years of colonial rule over Afghanistan more intrusively and forcefully than anything the British tried in India then maybe we could force the changes that the women deserve. Well given who is going to be President in less than 4 weeks that seems unlikely. So we have to play the odds and hope we don’t screw up. We give them toys and hope we don’t regret it. At least we are not handing out SAMs any more.

From Lawrence of Arabia:

ALLENBY
Right. I’m going to give you every
blessed thing I can, Major Lawrence,
because I know you’ll use it.
Congratulations and thank you. Thank you
for your hospitality, gentlemen.

CROWD
Congratulations.

DRYDEN
Are you really going to give them
artillery, sir?

BRIGHTON
I was wondering that, sir. It might be
deuced difficult to get it back again.

DRYDEN
Give them artillery and you’ve made them
independent.

ALLENBY
Then, I can’t give them artillery, can I?

DRYDEN
For you to say, sir.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:24 pm 58. Peter Boston:

India and Pakistan will be at war by June, 2009.

Pakistan is making troop movements that heretofore have only been done before the initiation of hostilities with India.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:30 pm 59. twobyfour:

@ 58. Peter Boston

By June 2009 the Pak-Indo war may be over already.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:44 pm 60. Jim in Virginia:

The Pak-Indo war may be started and over within a week. Pakistan offical said today they did not want to stoke war tensions. But they didn’t move their troops back.

Dec 27, 2008 - 1:59 pm 61. Subotai Bahadur:

#’s 58 & 59

Both India and Pakistan may well be over. If such comes to pass, I sincerely hope that the targeting strategy for India that I have explained before will be used.

I will note though, that if this war breaks out, our efforts in Afghanistan will be over, and we will have a good sized allied force trapped there. I offer for your consideration both the example of General Elphingstone from Kabul to Gandamuk in 1842, and Anabasis by Xenophon.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:10 pm 62. twobyfour:

@ 55. NahnCee

Maybe the Old Goat has also a harem of his own kind, she-goats?

Yes, I’ve read similar stories. And appalled as you are. But though I’d agree they are for most representative, it is not the whole story.

The forced marriage in that area is something that has been there from times before Alexander the Great. The people know nothing else. In fact that was the prevalent mode everywhere before the age of romanticism took a hold in Europe. If you asked the women in Afghanistan about marrying someone they love, they would not understand, there would be no overlap between your notions and theirs.
Only women that would get it would be those that had an exposure to western culture (even in its Russian subset). The concept of date rape or marital rape is again something they would not find making sense. The only factor you may have score a point is beatings. I am sure they resent the hell out of it.

The articles you and I’ve read are written through a prism of western culture. They describe the reality as we see it, but there may be very little correspondence with reality as they see it.

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:21 pm 63. Jim in Virginia:

Subotai Bahadur- I missed your targeting strategy, can you direct me please?
My gut tells me that an Indo- Pak war, or an Iran- Israel war, if either goes on very long, will go nucular, with similar outcomes in either case. One side will suffer massive casualties but survive as a culture and a nation state, the other will cease to exist as either.
I hope and pray neither happens, and fear a cascade of crises if either does.

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:24 pm 64. Subotai Bahadur:

#63 Jim in Virginia

This got wordy. Sorry.

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/11/26/stranglers-in-paradise/#comments

#’s 52, 78, 81

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/12/02/decommissioning-the-human-weapons/

#’s 20, 24, 26, 28, 29

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:37 pm 65. twobyfour:

@ 61. Subotai Bahadur

I think we can work something out with Turkmenistan (Herat route), Uzbekistan or Tajikistan (Mazar-e-Sharif route), for supply purposes, short term–which is likely the case.

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:37 pm 66. Subotai Bahadur:

#65 twobyfour

I hope so, but have my doubts. Our influence in the “stans” has peaked from what it was in the aftermath of the invasion of Afghanistan. We have the new “Soviet” Russian Empire led by Tsar for Life Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin that has extended Russian influence again, and which wishes American defeats. The price exacted from Russia to allow this, if they would, may be beyond paying.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:43 pm 67. Subotai Bahadur:

#66 above

Should read “price extracted BY Russia”. Short circuit between the few remaining brain synapses and the typing fingers. Bugger!

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 2:47 pm 68. NahnCee:

Taliban and al-Queda threatening to kill girls who are sent to school. *They* understand the value of education, even if the CIA doesn’t.

I think if India and Pakistan get into a nuking war it might spill over into AFghanistan which might solve many of these war lord difficulties. India is probably worth saving. The rest of them in Afghanistan and Pakistan — men and women — I can’t see bringing a whole lot to the party of humanity, and we’d be better off without.

Anyone here want to take a stab at what Pakistan is hoping to accomplish by stirring an already bubbling pot when they must understand that any sort of ground or air confrontation with India does not bode well for their future health?

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:22 pm 69. twobyfour:

@ 67. NahnCee

You are unusual and cruel:

On one hand, you decry the treatment of Afghan womenfolk, but then you readily turn them into dust.

It’s puzzling to me, to say the least. If I were to make a sense of it, I’d say that you’ve soaked up someone’s agenda without thinking it through.

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:32 pm 70. twobyfour:

@ 66. Subotai Bahadur

Invoked a mild dyslexia to translate the first incarnation, and understood as intended, not as typed.

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:35 pm 71. Peter Boston:

When India-Pakistan go at it the US will open supply routes to Afghanistan through Iran. The deal will be no attack by USA/Israel.

Iran does not have nukes. Aminiwhackjob will be gone in a few months.

New Year predictions.

Dec 27, 2008 - 3:39 pm 72. Subotai Bahadur:

#71 Peter Boston

!!!???!!!

Bloody speechless.

Even with Hussein Pasha siding with Iran, I can’t see it. We shall see.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 4:06 pm 73. twobyfour:

@ 71. Peter Boston

Hunch? Nightly shrieks of eagles? Chicken liver? Pray tell!

Dec 27, 2008 - 4:12 pm 74. Lifeofthemind:

The Army can not be extracted to the North. Where would they go, to the Caspian or over the mountains to China? We are not the Czechs and this is not 1919. They will need to get out either by going due South through the desert to Karachi or due East through the Khyber to India. The argument in favor of strike East is that a friendly army may be waiting to help them. The argument against it is that the mountains will be full of the enemy and there may be a nuclear war going on in front of them. The great diplomatic coup would be if we could bring China onboard to isolate the Pakistanis. If they felt that India wasn’t threatened from behind then maybe they would return to guarding the supply routes. If the Pakistanis do not then we have no use for them.

Dec 27, 2008 - 4:20 pm 75. tanarg:

Herb,

Easter is in the spring because Passover occurs then. Santa Claus is a North American mythic figure based on St. Nicholas, a very real person.

Dec 27, 2008 - 5:06 pm 76. Cannoneer No. 4:

Subotai, twobyfour, Lifeofthemind, All roads lead out of Afghanistan

. . . the US has begun developing an altogether new land route through the southern Caucasus to Afghanistan, which doesn’t exist at present. The US is working on the idea of ferrying cargo for Afghanistan via the Black Sea to the port of Poti in Georgia and then dispatching it through the territories of Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. A branch line could also go from Georgia via Azerbaijan to the Turkmen-Afghan border.

The project, if it materializes, will be a geopolitical coup – the biggest ever that Washington would have swung in post-Soviet Central Asia and the Caucasus. At one stroke, the US will be tying up military cooperation at the bilateral level with Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.

Furthermore, the US will be effectively drawing these countries closer into NATO’s partnership programs. Georgia, in particular, gets a privileged status as the key transit country, which will offset the current European opposition to its induction as a NATO member country. Besides, The US will have virtually dealt a blow to the Russia-led Collective Security Treat Organization (CSTO) and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). Not only will the US have succeeded in keeping the CSTO and the SCO from poking their noses into the Afghan cauldron, it will also have made these organizations largely irrelevant to regional security when Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, the two key players in Central Asia, simply step out of the ambit of these organizations and directly deal with the US and NATO.

What hits Russian interests most is that if the Caucasian route materializes, the US would have consolidated its military presence in South Caucasus on a long-term basis. Ever since the conflict in the Caucasus in August, the US has maintained a continuous naval presence in the Black Sea, with regular port calls in Georgia. The indications are that the US is planning a carefully calibrated ground presence in Georgia as well.

Another dramatic fallout is that the proposed land route covering Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan can also be easily converted into an energy corridor and become a Caspian oil and gas corridor bypassing Russia.

Dec 27, 2008 - 6:15 pm 77. programmer:

Nahncee asks:

Anyone here want to take a stab at what Pakistan is hoping to accomplish by stirring an already bubbling pot when they must understand that any sort of ground or air confrontation with India does not bode well for their future health?

programmer goes against the current and opines:

What a great way to get the Pakistan military, ISI(?), et al. out of the hills, facing the other direction, creating an opportunity for NATO forces (is there anyone left in Afghanistan except Americans?) to move into northern Pakistan and loose the dogs of war. Just a thought.

Dec 27, 2008 - 6:22 pm 78. Dave:

Cannoneer: Well, if you haven’t had too much Artillery Punch, said roadbuilding would be the way to fly.

Dec 27, 2008 - 7:42 pm 79. Lifeofthemind:

@Cannoneer No. 4,
The idea of drawing the Central Asians out of Russia’s ambit or armpit is appealing but and a secondary supply line is certainly a good thing. That does not mean that we could use it to maintain an Army in Afghanistan in the teeth of Russian hostility on one side and Pakistan exploding on the other. Every one of the bilateral relationships this route depends on is also a vulnerability. A series of four or more possible vetoes with intrigues and interests of their own. The energy angle is brilliant and I’d love to see it all come off. Perhaps we can even get the Chinese to view the Americans as the guarantor of their security. Does this mean that we can safely increase our troop levels in Afghanistan to 50,000 or more? Your lips to God’s ears. Now that you have put the route to Georgia back into play may we expect a host of old friends from the FSB to return to the Belmont Club, tanned rested and ready to entertain again?

Dec 27, 2008 - 9:18 pm 80. Lifeofthemind:

PIMF
Meant to say “appealing but risky” and add a reference to Market Garden. Hope it all works. Time to read the Anabasis again.

Dec 27, 2008 - 9:21 pm 81. Subotai Bahadur:

боже мой!
#76 Cannoneer #4

Would that it were so, it would be one hell of a diplomatic coup. And it would be a major reverse to both the Russian expansionist movement and to the Islamists. However, this cannot happen unless there is a firm and consistent policy from the US that is willing to piss off both Russia and Europe over Georgia AND the Islamists. In a matter of 3 weeks, our foreign policy is going to be overturned. I don’t see anyone who would be willing to risk offending any of the principals whose ambitions would suffer either in Foggy Bottom or the White House come January 20.

Indeed, the first impulse is going to be to conciliate Russia, Europe, Iran and probably the Taliban/ISI in Pakistan at the expense of American interests. They likely would be willing to offend the Indians, because they are a democracy and they chose to align with us during the hated Bush regime. This limits the directions that an American army [and the NATO contingents with us] could march.

In retrospect,in addition to Elphingstone and Xenophon, I might add Generalfeldmarschall Friedrich von Paulus to the reading list.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:23 pm 82. NahnCee:

Programmer – good. I like it. So who gave the orders to do so, and why are ISI following those orders when they must understand that they’re leaving their flank open?

It’s almost as if Mr. Bush bought someone off and is calling in his IOU’s in the last few weeks of his administration.

Dec 27, 2008 - 11:30 pm 83. Subotai Bahadur:

#77 Programmer and # 82 NahnCee

I think that Wretchard has part of the reasoning in the first part of this article. Muslims and Hindus have hated each other since before the Moghuls conquered India. Pakistan and the Taliban are caught up in the extreme Muslim supremacist mode. Jihad is the conquest of the rest of the world for Islam. Islam once had India, and it must be defeated and reconquered. The infidel [with the implied subtext of being sub-human]has to be punished. Reality testing is not the strong point of the Ummah. Neither is calculating the costs. To their way of thinking, their own deaths will be worth it to destroy India and Hinduism.

In between the postings above, I have been discussing the matter with an acquaintance with some knowledge of the field and we agree. You have to understand that in the absence of a survivable second strike capability [i.e. the ability of sufficient parts of their nuclear forces to survive a nuclear first strike by their opponent] both India and Pakistan are impelled to be willing to launch first before being hit. Launch on receipt of a warning of an enemy launch is not feasible because neither side has a real early warning system to detect such launch reliably, and in any case the ranges are so short that the flight time is a very few minutes. Not enough time to launch after the other side does. If hostilities commence, the imperative for both sides is likely to be to go nuclear before being hit.

I personally think that combining the aggressive intent of an Pakistani government under ISI influence, with their beliefs of innate superiority and the realization that they are on the short end of the strategic and nuclear calculus will make it far more likely that Pakistan will launch first,with no warning.

He who shoots first, laughs last.
General Aleksandr I. Lebed

A maxim that I think is being studied in Islamabad.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 28, 2008 - 1:48 am 84. twobyfour:

@ 83. Subotai Bahadur

He who shoots first, laughs last.
General Aleksandr I. Lebed

Especially when “нас много” is considered as a parameter, he’s after all a Russian. But place a speaker at 3 or 6 o’clock from you position, broadcast “boo”, wait till opponent wastes ammo and then shoot an laugh. Hmmm, did not Zhukov use a similar stuff at Kursk? I take back the “Russian” quip.

Now, how to apply a similar tactic to nukes, that is the question.

Or something else… Do Indians have a bunch of satellites up there? I think they can pretty much monitor Paki nuke sites/silos in a nice resolution. On the first sign that the preparations for firing (15-20 minutes frame?) are taking place, I’d launch. The silos first, other structures in the second volley.

Dec 28, 2008 - 6:57 am 85. Andrew:

What makes you guys think the Viagra is for use with women, and not little boys?

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:46 am 86. NahnCee:

I thought we had given/sold India some kind of Star Wars system that would enable them to shoot incoming missiles / rockets / bombs out of the sky before arrival. So that, hypothetically, India should be able to wait the extra beat for Pakistan to shoot first before annihilating them in return.

Which makes Paki troop movement even more undecipherable. Although, you know, I remember the Iraqi’s seemed to have total faith as American soldiers were marching into Baghdad, that literally the clouds would open in the skies and the hand of Allah would come down and crush all American forces, thereby saving the day for Iraq and Islam. Maybe the ISI think they have a hot-line to that same crushing hand of Allah.

///

Of *COURSE* the Viagra is also for use with little boys. Does that make it any better in practice to be distributing it to really bad guys?

Dec 28, 2008 - 12:15 pm 87. Subotai Bahadur:

#84 Twobyfour

Detailed data is not easy to come by. India does have a constellation of satellites; both launched by itself, and some launched by the French out of Guyana. When counting Indian satellites, like counting every country’s satellites, you have to deduct those which have spiralled in already. After doing that, India still has a number of satellites up there. Most are not military recon capable. Keep in mind that it is a priority for India to spread mass communications, and that is easier from space [and totally controlled by the government]. So they do a lot of ComSats. They do have some “earth imaging” resource satellites. Some have resolutions down to 1 meter, but most run from 4-6.5 meters. This might serve dual purposes if they were real time, but they apparently store on board and burst transmit down. Due to orbital mechanics, there can be one hell of a lag between image acquisition and reception. Then there is the matter of interpretation. What they have, to the best of my knowledge, is good for some degree of strategic warning, but not good enough for real time warning.

Pakistan does NOT use fixed position silos. Their missiles are either launched from pads, or from TEL’s, which are mobile. If the satellites see the TEL’s disperse, that can constitute strategic warning but not an immediate launch implication. They could detect heightened Pakistani readiness, but not the moment of launch. Such warning would tend to make the India’s trigger happy. Much of their arsenal is aircraft borne, and it would be possible to launch before detection.

While there is talk of creating a joint satellite image interpretation center, which would have both the military and civilian users getting immediate access to the imagery for interpretation, that has not yet been done as far as I have seen. Even then, the lag would be far too long to use for a launch warning.

#85 Andrew

The mechanics of influence on Afghan warlords would remain the same, regardless of the choice of targeted orifii. It would, however, totally remove any of the objections posted in #’s 2,3,33,&55. I assume that therefore the tactic would become acceptable. Even PETA, which could be assumed to object to the hazards to the local goat population would be silent. Not because they would agree, but because Leftist groups never complain about the actions of those who might fight back and hurt them. Thus they felt perfectly safe from 2000-2008.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 28, 2008 - 12:27 pm 88. Subotai Bahadur:

#86 NahnCee

To the best of my knowledge, we have not given India the type of phased array radar of the power, range, and computing capability to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles. I am not sure, but I think that we may have given their navy something along the line of our PHALANX system which is short range, designed for low level attacks at transonic speeds only, and for which the weapon systems are gun range. We like them [until January 20], but not that much. No AEGIS AN/SPY-1 system, no COBRA DANE, nothing like that.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 28, 2008 - 12:37 pm 89. Mongoose:

Gee, does this mean that Bush and Cheney were right when they started pursuing missile defense upon taking over the White House? You mean the Democrats were wrong? Who knew?

Dec 28, 2008 - 12:46 pm 90. Andrew:

>>Of *COURSE* the Viagra is also for use with little boys. Does that make it any better in practice to be distributing it to really bad guys?>>

I makes it worse, no?

Dec 28, 2008 - 12:46 pm 91. NahnCee:

How about listening satellites? If we can see from way up high, can we zoom in a listen to what orders are being given in specific Pakistani nuclear silo’s?

And do we think that the US is sharing these sorts of info dumps with India?

Dec 28, 2008 - 2:46 pm 92. twobyfour:

@ 91. NahnCee

Sheesh! That’s a realy good LOLcat!

Dec 28, 2008 - 3:34 pm 93. Subotai Bahadur:

#91 NahnCee

Electronic surveillance satellites only work if the orders are being transmitted over the air. Everyone in the world knows that if they transmit something on the air, it is likely being picked up by our NSA. Even for the stuff we pick up, there is a queue things go in. If as is likely, it is a code word being transmitted, in the midst of other traffic, we would have no way of knowing until WE see the launch.

And that makes the assumption that they are transmitting, knowing that we are listening. Guess what? They probably are not transmitting. The order will probably go over a dedicated hard line within their own territory. It may be possible that we have it tapped, but I rather doubt it. There are limits to our resources, especially in that part of the world.

Can we see the launch? Surely. We have constellations of satellites that are designed and tasked for that, and they are in real time constant communication with us.

Now, are we going to tell the other side if one side launches? Let us leave aside the political point that doing so would be considered an act of war by the side that launches. Just consider the mechanics. Flight time to target is on the order of under 10 minutes. Give us a minute or so to note the launch, track the trajectory, and then start to notify our National Command Authority [which would be Hussein Pasha]. He then has to decide what to do, and then start the process of getting ahold of the target nation, whichever it is. They are not exactly known for an overabundance of communications resources. Give it time for Hussein Pasha to contact either the Pakistani or Indian NCA. Now by that time, the first warheads have probably detonated. But say they haven’t. The NCA on the other end of the line has to decide if he believes and trusts what Hussein Pasha is saying. Not something that is guaranteed.

Best case, we are not in a position to give either side a reliable warning of an imminent attack, unless we happen to have an intel source within either government that can give us warning. The decision to pass that warning on would be a political one. Keep in mind the Hussein Pasha declared in one of his two autobiographies that he would stand with the Muslims. Further, that India was close to George II Bush, and that means that Hussein Pasha’s regime is not going to be friendly with them.

Would Hussein Pasha be willing to act against the interests of a Muslim nation and support a capitalist country that has pretensions of being a democracy? If I was Indian, I would not bet my last elephant on it.

All of that is academic, however. TV and Hollywood notwithstanding, we do not have all of these neat real time assets that give us the true intel picture instantaneously. Most of the world is out of our control and out of our observation. We do the best we can, but as Hussein Pasha is going to discover, national policy is a matter of improvising with incomplete knowledge. That magic wand or the One Ring really aren’t in the White House. What the Left and the media ascribe to ill will in this administration, they will gloss over in Hussein Pasha’s regime, because they cannot accept that things will not go perfectly under The One.

We are going to be reacting to events, not guiding them.

Subotai Bahadur

Dec 28, 2008 - 3:56 pm 94. twobyfour:

@ 93. Subotai Bahadur

She meant SOUND (acoustics!!!!

Dec 28, 2008 - 4:19 pm 95. NahnCee:

*laughing out loud*

I just watched “Horton Hears a Who”. Forgive me.

Dec 28, 2008 - 6:35 pm 96. twobyfour:

@ 95. NahnCee

Nothing to forgive, ’sokay. Each of us is a diletante in some subjects.

Or perhaps you need to forgive yourself.

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:20 pm 97. Tim san:

Hate to jump in this conversation so late but I have real problems with the Washington Post story about cunning CIA operatives distributing Viagra to 60 year old warlords. The story implies that CIA case officers actually get off the FOBs and meet with Afghan warlords which I do not believe is true. The story also implies that Viagra is something which the Afghans would like to have but cannot acquire on their own and that is complete nonsense. You can buy Viagra at most of the pharmacies in Afghanistan and this country has a ton of pharmacies.

I know guys who are on CIA contracts to provide mobile security for case officers – they have never, not once, ever left the FOB to which they are assigned. Granted my representative sample of case officer MST contractors could be statistically insignificant but I doubt it. When one reads books like Legacy of Ashes and has friends who served briefly in the CIA and left because the organization is too dysfunctional to tolerate than one becomes skeptical about written accounts which make the CIA appear cleaver or competent. They are neither. Year after year after year they fail at their basic mission of providing clear, concise, accurate intelligence to our decision makers. Their record of running agents behind the old Iron Curtain or during the Vietnam War was dismal – 100% of their teams were compromised – most immediately after they were inserted and every bit of information sent back to Langley was Soviet or NVA generated disinformation.

If our Presidents want to read disinformation they have the Washington Post or New York Times which don’t cost the tax payer a dime (yet I mean – we could be bailing them out soon too.)

I have talked with hundreds of village elders over the years and not one had a young wife to service – that is a stereotype better suited for a Flashman novel than a news article. In fact you would need to spend an inordinate amount of time chatting with an elder to even learn how many and the ages of his wives. That is not the kind of information which rolls out in polite conversation – and you will never see a woman while conducting a shura with Afghan tribal leaders.

I know how easy it is to get Viagra and also how popular it is in Afghanistan. My frigging guard force in convinced that New Years Day means they get a case of beer at each post and every man a three pack of Viagra – not from one of the local pharmacies but from Peshawar where the real stuff is kept. The Kiwi’s who ran the Taj before I did started this tradition which I plan to modify but the story is illustrative is it not? Yes – even in the conservative Pashtun belt the boys like beer – didn’t know that did you?

We are seeing reports like this because our press is much more incompetent than usual covering the Afghan campaign. If they got out and about more they would not be so easily fooled by planted stories of cleaver daring-do from the gang that has never shot straight. How hard is it to walk into a Kabul pharmacy and ask if they sell Viagra? Has the 5th estate really degenerated to the point where they cannot figure out how to fact check?

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:58 pm 98. NahnCee:

I’m thinking now “urban legend”. A friend of a friend had a cousin who said, and all that. It pushes the right buttons — in both men and women — to excite interest and plays upon ignorance of the culture and the situation.

I fell for it, and will keep it in mind, but don’t think I’ll go out spreading it as a fur shur story at cocktail parties.

Dec 29, 2008 - 5:31 pm 99. Marchfiddle:

Not to worry. We have satellite imaging systems that can read lips through ten meters of reinforced concrete.

Dec 30, 2008 - 12:39 am 100. Steynianism 302 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] HOW THEY GOT THERE– “The Times of India describes how the foundations of enmity against their [...]

Dec 31, 2008 - 10:21 am 101. Whitehall:

The height of Imperialist arrogance was when Barbara Boxer and Hilliary Clinton declared that official US policy should be to set the terms in the bedrooms of Afghans so that they are acceptable to California and New York feminists.

The case has been made that Islamic sexual relations ARE critical to our cultural clash (polygamy, cousin marriage, etc) as they are deterministic to broader aggressive tendencies.

Better to shift the payoff to monogamy for people in Islamic countries. Their sexual mores are the result of their ecologies much like those in industrial and agarian societies support their environments.

Jan 4, 2009 - 2:06 pm

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