74 Comments

1. Lifeofthemind:

Around 15 years ago, give or take, I spent a few Summer weeks on active duty at a house the US Navy owns in the very best part of Munich. It is across the street from the Shakespeare Park where I was told Adolph and Eva used to take their evening constitutionals. The house had been owned by a Jewish beer baron around the turn of the last century. Come 1933 they had left town rather suddenly and the place became the property of a cadet branch of the former royal family, the Hohenzollern-Emden, named for WW-I naval heroics. About ten years later it became the property of the SS and therefore became the property of the United States when we occupied that part of Germany at war’s end. Having completed my assigned tasks in a fraction of the alloted time I was asked to take inventory of government property, really as busy work. Going into the non-descript basement, a weight room had been set up, I could not help knowing what had happened down there within living memory. It makes sense that we develop rituals like exorcism to tame the memory of evil that can attach to victims and places after horror descends. The ghosts linger within the walls and within us.

Dec 28, 2008 - 9:55 pm 2. Dymphna:

Lifeofthemind–

Even more important than exorcism (though I agree it feels like a needed ritual in that basement) is some kind of statement, a plaque perhaps, screwed into the walls of that cellar, telling what happened.

I cannot imagine lifting weights in such a place…

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:19 pm 3. Alexis:

Terrorists flourish whenever they can take advantage of a moral double standard that lets them play “Heads I Win, Tails You Lose”.

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:24 pm 4. Lifeofthemind:

@Dymphna,
In a side room, the furnace room down there, I found a box of old maps waiting to be destroyed. The bosses said everything was way past declassification and I was welcome to take what I wanted. There were US Army map service, field maps from 1944 of southern Poland. One showed Auschwit and Birekenau and the rail ine. We knew, during the war we knew, and we never bombed that rail line. Another map of the Adriatic coast of Albania had operational markings. My belief is that was used as part of the first post war operations by the US into Eastern Europe as the old OSS was transitioning into the CIA. The liaison between the American and British intelligence organizations was Donald MacClean, who was a member of the Cambridge Ring (with Kim Philby, Anthony Blunt, Guy Burgess and John Cairncross) of Soviet spies. Every man who was sent into Albania on those missions died.

Every hierarchical bureaucracy is subject to defect and abuse. Government organs are particularly vulnerable and that goes triple for the police or security services. The problem is that the insecure, the abusive, and the deranged are drawn to it. They are protected and then they are promoted. Malignant but cunning mediocrities like Ahmadinejad or Himmler or Che Guevera are drawn to it. For those of us who reject both selfish and ultimately defenseless anarchy as well as the choice of totalitarian submissions it is always hard. To many choose to believe that the only way to fight one mindless thuggery, such as Hamas and its agents is to surrender to another. We need police and armies and we need them to be staffed and lead by people who understand the virtues of our civilization. Who fight the hatreds of Gaza and of Dachau not only because they are ugly and foreign but because they are wrong. Because we know that we stand for something better.

Dec 28, 2008 - 10:57 pm 5. NahnCee:

Wretchard – in Iraq, we saw terrorists’ victims learning the lesson that they need to stand up for themselves and fight back. If people will not fight back, what is the West (for example) supposed to do about it?

Many people seemed to get a little irate about the idea of bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq, so what, exactly, are those in charge of civilization supposed to do about the terrorists in North Korea, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Iran and Venezuela if the presumed innocent people there refuse to be responsible for their own fate, and to all intents and purposes, prolong that fate by playing along with their tyrant’s demands?

Indeed, aren’t we told in some case like Saudi Arabia that to interfere at all would be trampling upon their proud cultural heritage which they have no intention of giving up, and how dare we call them terrorists to begin with, fallen World Trade Center towers to the contrary?

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:02 pm 6. Bobal:

The problem is that the insecure, the abusive, and the deranged are drawn to it.

That’s got a ring of truth to it.

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:05 pm 7. wretchard:

To many choose to believe that the only way to fight one mindless thuggery, such as Hamas and its agents is to surrender to another. We need police and armies and we need them to be staffed and lead by people who understand the virtues of our civilization.

This is the core dilemma of any one acting in the world. Whether you are a rebel against some totalitarianism or an agent in authority hunting down some terrorist, the problem is to walk the fine line between belief and becoming a True Believer. I know that some people coped by making fun of things, including themselves. Irreverence and casting oneself as the outsider is sometimes not only a defense against others, it is a defense against yourself. But as you have already observed, not getting with the program is a career self-limitation. Everything has a price, including the ability to look yourself in the mirror.

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:06 pm 8. Alexis:

An American tourist goes into a bazaar. He looks at a rug and falls in love with it. He tells the merchant, “I just love that rug. It is so beautiful. How much money does it cost?” The merchant had been willing to sell the rug for $100, but he had been planning to quote $500. But hearing this American, he replies, “It’s a cherished heirloom of my grandmother. It’s difficult to part with, but because my beloved son needs back surgery, I might be willing to part with it for $10,000. But just for you, I’ll bring it down to $9000. The American replies, “Oh no, I’ll pay the full ticket. Your son needs the money. Here’s $10,000.” The merchant then accepts the money with a mixture of disbelief and contempt.

That’s the problem that calling the Levant “The Holy Land” brings. The more an outsider wants “peace”, the higher the price the bazaar merchants will demand. And remember that in Arab culture, everybody haggles. According to underworld lore, even the prostitutes will haggle over their own price.

There are those who take the view that Americans must bear some variety of “The White Man’s Burden” to guide the “Holy Land” into a promised kingdom of mutual respect, true justice, and everlasting peace. Perhaps they forget the importance of tough love. When a parent caves in to a child’s demands in exchange for a momentary respite from quarrelling, even if such a desire for peace comes only occasionally, the effect is to teach the child to become a spoiled brat.

Terrorists exist for a reason. There may be an internal cultural component, but the main reason why terrorists act the way they do is because their tantrums often succeed at getting them what they want. Calling the Levant “The Holy Land” ensures that every spoiled brat in the region can get all the attention he wants if he acts out and threatens the peace of mind of every devout fool who is willing to pay any price to achieve “Peace in the Holy Land”.

When outsiders ram “peace” down the throats of people who don’t want peace, peace is not the result. Not real peace. Real peace happens when those who actually live with the consequences of “peace” want peace more than any outsider, whether he is an American or a Swede.

The “peace process” has become yet another form of rental income collected by grifters who fleece the unwary traveler. The “peace process” has become a cow for those who milk the conflict for power, influence, and money.

It would not be wise to sell one’s soul in exchange for “Peace in the Holy Land”.

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43 pm 9. Lifeofthemind:

@wretchard,
The good intelligence officer, like the good Bishop or the good Colonel or the good Professor, can sit on the edge of his desk and offer you something to drink while laughing about how absurd it can sound. The English aristocracy have developed the trick of self deprecation, doing amateur theatricals and imitating accents. It takes the sting out of power. Since power remains the ability to get other people to do things the fact that it works means that give up nothing by doing so. Unfortunately the penchant that the bureaucracies have for promoting the defective can as you point out drive out the reflective. Paradoxically the more formal and regulated a system is then the worse the problem. The more informal the system then more likely that the man with the mirror and the gift for sitting on his desk will survive. Merit is promoted by the less ostensibly meritocratic aristocratic system than by the more regulated alternative. The House of Lords was more democratic and given to free thought than the machine of the Commons. Practically speaking Chicago will not be cleaned up by imposing more administration and regulation. It will be cleaned up by the masses getting tired of being taken for chumps and supporting the sane people when they start arresting and firing people. The corrupt enact Civil Service and other rules to protect themselves from that happening.

Dec 28, 2008 - 11:49 pm 10. Steve Skubinna:

You can apply that axiom to the Vietnam War, when even today America bears tremendous stigma, mostly wrongly, for civilian deaths in South Vietnam. While there were obviously some atrocities, nobody is concerned about the huge numbers of civilians deliberately murdered by the VC and NVA, a number that eclipses the collateral damage US forces inflicted.

But again, it’s like black on black violence in Africa. If anyone expresses concern for the slaughter in Rwanda, it’s usually as a prelude to damning the US for not stopping it.

I’d say the last vestige of the good old fashioned colonialist racist is the concerned Western leftist, who really can’t concern himself with what the bloody wogs get up to amongst themselves, so long as they don’t interrupt the Post-Modernist Anti-Zionist Conference.

Dec 29, 2008 - 12:02 am 11. what is occupation:

Notice the lack of actual violence in islamic countries about the gaza situation…

Compare and contrast the to cartoon riots…

interesting….

Dec 29, 2008 - 12:02 am 12. Josh:

Very nice, Alexis #8.

Along the same lines, I’d suggest Hamas fails in our expectations because it is not even approximately what a westerner expects of a modern government, it has no expectations to be so, it has other priorities and goals. Preservation and benefit to its individuals, are low to nonexistent priorities. In this week when Samuel Huntington passed away, let us remember his basic concept, that there are different civilizations, with no reason to see them growing together.

Dec 29, 2008 - 12:39 am 13. Gary Rosen:

“Notice the lack of actual violence in islamic countries about the gaza situation…
Compare and contrast the to cartoon riots…
interesting….”

There are probably a few things going on here. First, when I hear about the “Arab [or Muslim] street” rising up in anger I always wonder if it is really widespread or if it’s just the MSM selling news/peddling an agenda like when they take those shots of sparsely attended antiwar demonstrations made to look like there’s a big crowd. And when there actually is a crowd rioting in that part of the world I wonder if it is really a great upswelling of popular sentiment or just some local imam stirring up some yobs for his own purposes.

It looks like a lot of Arab countries are throwing Hamas under the bus. This is good but not as good as it sounds, because they are undoubtedly doing this for their own strategic reasons rather than from any genuine soul-searching about Hamas’ depravity.

Dec 29, 2008 - 12:55 am 14. Ledger:

This situation is similar to Fallujah 2. Although air power can soften up the terrorists, I believe that boots on the ground with armor will be required to eliminate the enemy.

The top terrorists are dug in deep. They must be flushed out or entombed. The tunnels that transport and hide militants and munitions must be destroyed.

Israel is on a roll and it must not stop until the enemy is liquidated and his supply lines are destroyed.

Dec 29, 2008 - 1:19 am 15. whiskey:

I disagree. Egypt could have stopped Hamas had they wanted, and Gazans themselves could have stopped Hamas had they wanted.

They did not and could not.

Largely because terror as Wretchard points out is a good business, but also because there are ironically little tribal structures threatened by outside terror groups. Here the tribal structures ARE the terror groups.

As for the Western nations and media and such, they are essentially bystanders. If Israel REALLY were willing to pay the price for peace, they would take proportionally large casualties to kill half of Gaza and the West Bank and South Lebanon. They are capable of doing it, but cannot bear the price politically, not the least of which would be the deaths of so many Israelis in such a small nation.

So we get … this. Like the Balkans spinning out of control in 1911-14, the danger is that Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, the US, Russia, will all get dragged in by various actors. There is no guarantee that Obama would not intervene … to rescue Hamas. Wright, Khalidi, Obama’s own Muslim heritage make that fairly probable as does Susan Power, his close advisor.

I am quite comfortable with the notion that Obama would agree with the aims and means of Hamas, because it’s “authentic.” But the problem is not Obama. It’s Israel’s inability to come up with the price of peace, and Gazans and Palestinians unable to muster a social structure that is capable of opposing Hamas.

Hamas is the tribal structure in Gaza. No wonder there has been no Iraq style uprising.

Dec 29, 2008 - 1:32 am 16. Ledger:

Carl in Jerusalem has some interesting footage of secondary explosions at Hamas rocket depot.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2008/12/video-iaf-strikes-on-gaza-weapons.html

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:07 am 17. wretchard:

What would be the strategic point of Israel re-occupying Gaza after so painstakingly withdrawing from it? Geography, in this case, is secondary to condition of the human terrain. The social framework of the 1.5 million inhabitants has been wrecked by 60 years of international development aid and terrorist organization. It’s the toxic byproduct of the unending confrontation with Israel.

In an ideal world, Israel would leave Gaza and the town fathers would dutifully turn it into Singapore or Dubai. But there’s a fat chance of that ever happening until a) security can be provided for a new and constructive social network to arise and prosper; b) the inhabitants can rebuild their civic society. Somebody has to hold their hand while they rediscover their humanity and grow up. But I don’t think Israel can afford the investment necessary to unscramble the egg. It will sadly prove cheaper to wall it up, like some real world version of the dystopian Manhattan depicted in Escape from New York. And of course, keeping Gaza a hell hole is in the best interests of the Iran, and several other parties besides. When you really come to think of it, whose interest is it in, beside Israel’s, to have the Gazan kids grow up normal?

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:19 am 18. Andrew:

The Gazan kids’.

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:47 am 19. Andrew:

Which means destroying Hamas.

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:49 am 20. Derek:

The Gazan kids are expendable.

Much of western Europe, most of the north american left, and everyone else would cheer if Israel was destroyed. They are Jews. They are the cause of the problem. The final solution to all the worlds instability is to get rid of them, let Hamas have it’s way.

As for the radioactive remains, how dare they have fought back.

Bah. The madness runs very deep. This is going to end poorly.

If you doubt the madness, in Canada a Human Rights Museum is being built, and one of the advisers on the guiding principles is a 9/11 truther who blames the jews.

Derek

Dec 29, 2008 - 4:12 am 21. twobyfour:

@ 20. Derek

Madness… In think the moniker is justified in more ways than is apparent.

When you read “human rights”, “peace process”, “Nobel Prize”, and so on, it leaves a taste of a debasement. As time goes by, more people are aware of it. That sort of provides a degree of hope–the process may be bad, but not the end.

Dec 29, 2008 - 4:58 am 22. Blindman:

Israel has learned the lessons of the predators. You kill the political terrorists where they are. Who they hide behind no longer matter. The quicker the terrorists are dead the sooner their controllers will show their hand. Then you can decide if you really want to have a war.

Dec 29, 2008 - 5:44 am 23. robertl:

Not to be picky; but your “CSN” (Love the one you’re With) quote is actually from the first Stephen Stills solo album. Attribution, please….

Dec 29, 2008 - 6:10 am 24. cdor:

Sadly, I don’t see how Israel can survive as a liberal secular country with its current incongruent territorial limitations and population mix.

First, they must change their constitution. Only a Jew can be a citizen. No matter what happens outside their boundaries, the arab muslims currently living as citizens in Israel will become the majority in 50 years. That fact alone will be the demise of the country.

Second, they must consolidate their territory to include Gaza and the West Bank to the Dead Sea, Judea, and Samaria. There were no Palistinians, there are none, and there will be none.

And what are the chances of either of those two things happening?

Dec 29, 2008 - 6:56 am 25. swingin:

It is true that “terrorist group” is an unfortunate name. The first Russian anarchist groups aiming at assassinating the Czar and causing – magically – the collapse of the society were true terrorists, in that their theories were so hopelessly incohate. But it appears that these terrorist groups of the 20th and 21st centuries have always, or nearly always, been the vanguard of a new state, which such wonderful tutors as the USSR and Third Reich and the more obnoxious revivalist variety of Islam have provided a very sophisticated, cunning, patient road-map. But it is no wonder such groups must first inspire by fear – that, after all, is the primordial prerogative of any state or clan. First comes power, then – if you’re lucky – comes justice. The Palestinian problem has been as much about incompetence with respect to power as it has been perversion with respect to justice. Arab societies seem particularly averse to ordinary sentiments of national feeling, probably thereby dooming them ipso facto to the most vicious variety of statecraft. Elie Khadouri’s chapter “The Kingdom of Iraq” in The Chatham House Version is instructive in this regard. There will be no modern Arab state until the tribes are denatured, as in Cleisthenes’ Greece. The Jews have gone out and come back, but, in large part because of Islam, Arabs seem not have learned much but “not Islam” when they have gone out. Nota bene: I realize these are individuals, but it is difficult to avoid referring to “the Arabs,” no matter how closely you look, even down to the level of families. Discouraging.

Dec 29, 2008 - 8:12 am 26. Staring In Disbelief:

Wretchard nails it in #17. There is no strategic point to an Israeli reoccupation of Gaza. If I were an Israeli I would be applauding the strikes but would want no part of a ground-based follow up. The rocket-inflicted casualties were way too low to justify a ground invasion. Israel’s best play here is to pound Hamas infrastructure where ever it can be clearly identified, as the world’s protests are pointedly weak (i.e. “go ahead an bomb the Hamas animals”) and continue to treat Gaza as the radioactive cesspool the Palestinians have made it. The stupid animals have to clean up their own mess.

cdor @ 24: The Arabs living inside Israel probably don’t want their animal Hamas or corrupt Fatah brothers running the country they live in anymore than the Israelis do, given the societal carnage they would wreak. They may pay lip service to “The Cause” but I bet they would rather be non-citizens in a safe, prosperous, well-governed Israel than full citizens in a Hobbesian criminal society run by Hamas drowning in a sea of blood. Either way they don’t have the vote, and their chances of getting it are way higher in an Israel run by Israelis than in a Palestinian state run by Hamas.

Dec 29, 2008 - 8:55 am 27. slade:

RE Alexis@8 comments. Immediately after 9/11, I and many of the people I knew (all of whom lived in “flyover country” geopolitically, if not geophysically) rushed to educate ourselves about this new threat from Islam. We read history, religion, politics, Huntington, Berman, news articles and analyses – trying to reach the “smart” informed – and of course – “fair” opinion. And now we’re back to basic human psychology – child psychology at that – filtered through the prism of tribalism. I have been thinking for a long time that none of these groups deserved the study we (my buddies and me in flyover country) gave them. Anyone who has raised kids knows that there comes a time when the only answer that works is “because I said so” followed by a slow but determined descent into deep “do not disturb” thought. The western world is being played like a fiddle, not by the “all turbin no camel” terrorists, but by the financial groups behind them (I am convinced that Clinton’s failure was caused by the money behind Arafat pulling out at the last minute) and the rising power of transnational progressive political groups for whom armed conflict is not even an option (Cedarford elsewhere: “Give war a chance.”) I’m sticking with basic pattern recognition in conflict resolution, which includes follow the money and grow up or else.

But it’s probably too late for common sense. More likely is that a decision will be made to wage a full-blown conventional war(s) leading to millions of deaths rather than “risk” a nuclear war leading to billions of deaths. That seems to be the current calculus.

I’ve listened to violence coming out of the Middle East my entire life – more than half a century. I don’t see it ever stopping without major loss of life.

But then again the list of things I didn’t see coming is getting longer than I would have thought.

Dec 29, 2008 - 9:07 am 28. Mark:

Staring In Disbelief writes: “Wretchard nails it in #17. There is no strategic point to an Israeli reoccupation of Gaza.”

The goal for Israel should be neutralization and delegitimization of Hezbollah and Hamas. How to do this? By increasing the costs associated with supporting the terrorist organizations. The Saudis and fellow travellers have figured out that the costs (especiall via-a-vis Iran) are too high and are, as a result, withdrawing support from Hamas. Iraqis already, thanks to Saddam, have experienced the costs associated with Palestinian mercenaries and bid them farewell.

Hezbollah and Hamas will retreat/recede when the leadership that most profits loses its life and treasure, resulting in a second tier leadership that prefers to stay alive and rich. The elimination of one prominent Hezbollah terrorist in Damascus did more to silence Hezbollah than a slapdash, large-scale Israeli incursion into Lebannon.

Can we expect to see some high profile disappearances/eliminations?

Israel is playing with fire, however, in seeming to extract the cost of support for Hamas from civilians.

Thanks to Ledger for the link to the video of secondary explosions.

Dec 29, 2008 - 9:44 am 29. John Work:

“When you really come to think of it, whose interest is it in, beside Israel’s, to have the Gazan kids grow up normal?”

Maybe this is exactly the point, and the reason Israel should try a new approach – nation building in Gaza to create “the Palestinian State”. The current Gaza situation IS the Manhatten in Escape From New York. Israel has already begun working with Fatah in the West Bank. Maybe the lessons learned from that and the War in Iraq and the “Surge” could be applied by the Israelis in Gaza. A large and complex task without a certain outcome (like most real world problems), but what are the superior alternatives? Certainly not more of the same stew of combat and diplomacy that have failed for fifty years and more. And as the Arab population grows the situation only gets worse for Israel. Re-occupation of Gaza and the beginning of a thorough program to create a Palistinian State under the adult supervision of the Israelis might be a more effective answer than more of the same old, same old. And as for “it can’t be done by humans”, how do we know until it’s tried? How many were predicting disaster in Iraq and how many pundits expected the current outcome? As far as “Israel can’t afford it”, what can they afford – continuous warfare and probably their ultimate destruction by nuclear neighbors? Or perhaps they should just put their trust in Obama as we have done?

Dec 29, 2008 - 9:59 am 30. Roderick Reilly:

Don’t Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, Egypt and Jordan want Israel to clobber (and perhaps subdue) Hamas?

Granted they aren’t open about it, but it’s in their best interest for organizations like Hamas to be exterminated, and who better to do the job than the hated and well-armed Jews?

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:10 am 31. twobyfour:

@ 29. John Work:

We haven’t (here in BC), and neither should they.

I presume that your question was really meant to read: “Or perhaps they shouldn’t just put their trust in Obama as we haven’t done?”.

And if you meant it as it is, then who is “we”? Americans as a nation? No, not entirely, and already the buyers’ remorse is setting in. And in not so remote future, it would be more and more apparent for those that did… how considerable mistake it was.

They shouldn’t put their trust in anyone but themselves. Obama or Nobama.

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:22 am 32. twobyfour:

@ 30. Roderick Reilly

Well, not just Hamas (or Hezbully), “Half-Irans removed is nice, but the Whole Iran is even better”, they mutter under their breath. Egypt is rather vocal about it, Soddy less so, but you can bet the feeling is as intense.

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:29 am 33. cdor:

#26, Staring

Point of information: The arabs in Israel are citizens, 100% full voting rights and representation in the Knesset. That is exactly the problem to which I referred. In 50 years they will be the majority vote and the Jews in Israel will be just like the Jews in any other Arab country…they will cease to exist.

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:34 am 34. NahnCee:

Re: the Gazan kids — studies have shown that they are irremediably damaged by age 5 by their upbringing and parental teaching.

“The function correctly classified 81 % of subjects as antisocial, or not. at age 11, and 66% of subjects as delinquent, or not, at age 15. Having preschool behavior problems was the single best predictor of antisocial disorders at age 11.”

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119366513/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

This was from a study done in New Zealand but I’ve seen the same results published here in the United States. The shrinks can look at the parental units, the lifestyle the kid is growing up in, the past history of the family and predict with quite a bit of certainty who will end up in prison when that person is five years old.

I haven’t seen any studies on whether a whole population of brainwashed 6- to 11-year-olds could be saved by intervention, but I sort of think there’d be an even greater out-cry if anyone tried to step in and scrape them away from their parental units who have been dressing them in grenades, dynamite belts, and AK-47s.

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:50 am 35. Tony:

Wrong provenance or not, chillingly accurate description of Al Qaeda and all other terrorists: when you can’t kill the one you hate, then kill the one you’re with.

How are we to have sympathy for the Palestinians? No one can really believe the people themselves are not all in favor of blindly killing Jews and Americans wherever they can be reached.

Islamofascist terrorism is cancer in the body of humanity, it kills because it can, it’s what it does.

And yet I hear my blinkered liberal friends saying “The Jews treat the Palestinians worse than Hitler treated them.” Disgusting, illogical, factually opposite the truth – and therefore completely liberal and P.C.

Here in the US, the Muslims who are most anti-American are American born ‘black Muslims’ who are converts to the RoP.

Dec 29, 2008 - 11:33 am 36. RWE:

Lifeofthemind: I am reading a book that addresses the issue of the bombing of Auschwitz. I had already concluded from my analysis – and the experts in the book agree – that it was not possible for the Allies to have bombed the rail lines leading to Auschwitz. The only force capable of getting there was heavy bombers and they could not hurt rail lines without blasting a city that they ran through.

As for photo intelligence data, there is no evidence that the Allies ever sought to find out what Auschwitz was in detail. They did have reports from agents, some of which came quite early and were fairly accurate.

There is argument about the ability to destroy the crematoriums or even the entire camp, but of course that would hardly have saved the prisoners there. The most earnest and condemning arguments about Allied inaction come from people more interested in symbolism than real military effectiveness.

Dec 29, 2008 - 11:35 am 37. Lifeofthemind:

@RWE,
Sorry but that is nonsense on stilts. We were bombing rail lines all over Europe. We were bombing the factories next to Auschwitz and had to fly over the camp to do it. People were begging the Air Corps to bomb the camp even at risk of the inmates, we were destroying urban areas to interdict rail and road lines. My Father watched the Navy destroy an inhabited Italian village to bring the rubble down on a road. It sickened him to see it and it was one of the few things from the war he talked of 60 years later.

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:32 pm 38. RWE:

We were bombing rail lines with fighter bombers at ranges much much less than it took to get to Poland. The fighters could not get that far carrying bombs. We were bombing rail lines at longer distances simply by obliterating the cities they ran through. We even used the cathedral in Munster as the aiming point for attacking the railway yards there.

Pick which Polish or Hungarian cities you want to wipe out in order to stop those trains temporarily. And in order to be effective we would have had to do that day after day after day, hitting all targets required to cover alternate routes.

We did bomb the IG Farben factories near by, and given the best accuracy ever demonstrated in Europe by heavy bombers if we went for the gas chambers or ovens closer to the camps we would have killed at least hundreds of the prisoners.

As it was, we did hit a V-2 factory that was near the Buchenwald concentration camp and killed over 300 prisoners and wounded over 1000 others without even trying.

We could have obliterated that camp and everyone in it with repeated air attacks but that was all we could have done. Some people think that would have been a good thing but I don’t think it was a credible option.

Dec 29, 2008 - 2:52 pm 39. Charles:

I saw Ron McFarland — advisor to Reagan & Bush I and not known to be overly friendly to Israel. He was on Fox. He said that Hamas is mostly funded by Iran.

Oil went up two dollars today. That was more than the further drop on oil prices that OPEC 4 million barrel cut did a couple weeks back.

A big question people want to know. Why did the Palestinians incite this war. They had to know that they couldn’t shell the Israelis indefinitely without a response. The huge increase in palestinian shelling in the last two months means the palestinians were pushing for a fight right now!

Why.

If they were being paid by the iranians — then the iranians would want something for their money. What would that something be?

War.

War puts a premium on the price of oil. Iran will get a regime change is the price of oil stays low or keeps falling.

Likely too the Palestinians were hoping for Israeli tanks to give them a photo op to top off their donor lists.

They might still get the photo op.

Dec 29, 2008 - 3:12 pm 40. Josh:

Why?

Why did the scorpion sting the frog carrying it across the river – or whatever version of the parable you prefer?

That’s why.

Why at this moment? Because, given their druthers, they never stop.

Have a nice day.

Dec 29, 2008 - 5:06 pm 41. JFSanders:

“A big question people want to know. Why did the Palestinians incite this war.”

The Palestinians have no moral basis with which to decide NOT to incite war. They never learned it as children.

War and death is their culture. It would be best to erase them and start over. Not an easy thing to suggest to be sure.

But it is like living in a box with a wolf. He only does what he does because he doesn’t know better. So you either kill him or he kills you. But there is no in between. He won’t allow it.

Jim

Dec 29, 2008 - 5:15 pm 42. whiskey:

No, JFSanders, the Palestinians have not experienced, ever a “real” War by Western standards. No cities in ruins, women starving and selling themselves for a piece of bread, men coming home in the tens when they left in the thousands, memories of most of their pals being blown to bits. Destruction every where, Not one brick on top of another.

Death and destruction as far as the eye can see.

THAT is what real, Western war is like. Had the Palestinians been exposed to it, suffered it, drank it in all it’s full bitterness, they would have never allowed Hamas to do this, in fact Hamas would itself not have risked War with Israel (though they would have done all sorts of bad things).

The Left (really, the “Gentry” ala the NYT Column) wants to transform people’s minds, ways of living, ways of thinking, while keeping them the same and “colorful.” They think this is the way to peace.

The actual path to peace is through War. Giving those who want War a full dose if it in it’s Western Way of war.

Dec 29, 2008 - 5:52 pm 43. Tony:

Sniper war via bunker buster, that’s what I think I’m seeing on TV now. The tell-tale concrete structures crumpled sharply downward into a seemingly bottomless hole. The signature mini-mushroom-cloud rising in a sharp, 200 foot high t-shape on video, where the camera doesn’t shake even though it’s obviously close.

I would love to see a Wretchard analysis of map terrain and lanes of attack in this Gaza blitz, the way he first attracted me here with his superior overview of First Fallujah.

Dec 29, 2008 - 10:12 pm 44. sfblue:

twobyfour encapsulates the bigger picture in 21. If there is one thing that the advent of the 24 hour internet news cycle has brought about it is the slow lifting of the covers off of the general news consuming public. As the historical controllers of news, NYT, BBC, more recently CNN find their power slipping, there is a tide of understanding founded in the diversity of news sources available over the internet at any moment. As ably demonstrated by NYTCNNABCCBSNBCBBC during the election coverage of the 2008 US presidential election, even ‘trusted’ news sources are capable of cynical agenda pushing. The effect is a general mistrust of any given news source and perhaps a cynical view of ‘atrocity’ coverage in general. The political backlash factor essentially founded by Walter Cronkite during the Vietnam War is waning fast.

An additional and synergistic contributing factor is ‘outrage’ overload. As traditional media tries to stem the bleeding, more and more sensational news is splashed across the pages/screens. As trite as that might sound, it’s real, and may have been poo pooed due to an underestimating of human attention spans. We have, it seems, had less of a problem than predicted with numerous and constant sources of stimulation. But there is a limit, and it is rapidly being overtaken.

Also, as people retrench in the current economic climate, even less energy will be available for ‘outrage’.

As I write this, BBC radio is reporting ‘notables’ expressing shock at the lack of international pressure being brought to bear on Israel to cease operations in Gaza.

Dec 30, 2008 - 2:33 am 45. Warsong:

Something I’ve learned by working in Arabic Countries for more than 30 years: If you must fight Assyrians, fight LIKE an Assyrian, otherwise, you die.

I’m in Baghdad, and, almost every Iraqi I know claims to be descended from Assyrians. Hamas and Hezbollah are of the same psychological bint, and, somehow believe they are descended from “Sargon, the Magnificent,” fighting an eternal war. Their whole philosophy of life is Nihilistic, with no plans for after, only unending war. That’s the reason that if Arabs defeat all their enemies, they look around and fall upon their neighbors, whether he is next door, in the next village, or, another country.

There is no peace except Hudna, no future without death for the Infidels (and, Infidels are quite often those of other Islamic creeds or sects), no shining, prosperous Cities…just war.

Dec 30, 2008 - 2:38 am 46. whiskey:

Israel faces a real problem. It’s enemies have found a way to beat them. Dig in, fortify everything, turn the entire territory into a giant Iwo Jima, and rocket like heck from the territory.

Israel’s tanks are useless against fortified fighting positions, merely big targets. Their air force can drop bombs, but dug in fighting positions fortified by concrete can withstand all but the biggest. And perhaps even that if enough concrete and steel are used.

The rockets are not stopping. They are moved around enough that there is no central place to attack them. Hamas can beat Israel because it can rocket with impunity and suffer no real damage. Probably very few of it’s men are dead. Dug in, behind human shields, Israel’s enemies can attack it with impunity.

What Israel needs is not special ops but Combat Engineering. Hit Hamasistan from the Sea, in a Normandy style landing, and start driving to the border with remotely operated vehicles, like armored bulldozers, etc, cutting a wide swath through buildings, fortified fighting positions, and so on. With coordinated shelling from Israel’s naval and artillery forces, and air support. Grind away and cut through from both sides to meet in the middle and cut Hamasistan in two, avoiding the use of Tanks as fat targets. Using Remotely operated gun platforms wherever possible to take out all possible fighting positions with minimal Israeli casualties.

Then reduce each part, slowly, “Roman” style for which Hamas would have no answer. Fortified fighting positions would need various bunker busters, or various other means. Such as tear gas, or even fuel air bombs, or napalm, and such like. Even remotely operated explosive carrying vehicles, to entomb the Hamas fighters.

The great weakness of tribal peoples is that they cannot sustain a “Roman” or Western style of assault, directed without letup, and without mercy. Slowly grinding their fighters and others into red meat. It’s a remarkably ugly way of fighting, but very effective, and requires a very cooperative, high trust network society capable of standing nearly shoulder to shoulder in ugly sustained combat against entrenched enemies. It’s not hit and run, and the weakness of Hamas’s gamble is that they are fixed in place. They can’t run.

If Israel CAN sustain the will to use Combat Engineering to kill Hamas bit by bit in place, and shove the rest of Gaza into Egypt or wherever, they will avoid having Gaza replicated all over their borders.

If they simply bomb impotently, leave Hamas in place, they guarantee the tactic will be used by Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

Dec 30, 2008 - 3:15 am 47. cjm:

israel won’t ever resolve their arab problem. in some perverse way, that i can’t quite fathom, vested interests have grown up around the status quo. in the end it will cost them their country. the bottom line is if they aren’t willing to exterminate the majority of arabs, then they will lose their country.

Dec 30, 2008 - 3:24 am 48. Lifeofthemind:

@whiskey,
You have the essentials right on this. My only refinement is to point out that given Gaza’s shape it makes sense to begin at the far Northern tip at Zikim and advance exactly one sixteenth of a mile per day, The arabs have an institutional memory from their Soviet training so for maximum psychological impact Israel should line up the artillery, at least 200 tubes, Zhukov style. Grind and advance while allowing the civilians to escape. If they sue for peace and release the prisoner then accept it but no truces. Never return land that is captured this way. Either a real peace or the toothpaste gets squeezed from the tube. Mubarek is desperate not to have 2,000,000 Philistines dumped into Egypt. If Israel started today they could advance to the border of Gaza city by the 20th. If it goes on until the end of march then Gaza would be completely, and I mean completely, destroyed and retaken. To completely scrub the strip clean would take a year. No hurry, just be methodical. As you put it, Roman methods.

Dec 30, 2008 - 6:45 am 49. programmer:

whiskey advocates Götterdämmerung:

programmer asks:

Do you think the rest of the world would stand by and watch? Just saying…

Dec 30, 2008 - 8:37 am 50. RWE:

The factor that no one is mentioning here is Fata, AKA the PLO.

I believe that Israel is simply destroying Hamas in order to enable the more tractable Fatah to take over.

There is a Fatah reform effort underway, with new elections being planned. Supporters of Fatah will be able to point to the destruction that resulted from Hamas being in charge.

Fatah has had the experience of having its clock cleaned by Israel more than once. They are still basically corrupt terrorists but probably have a more realistic view than does Hamas.

Dec 30, 2008 - 8:42 am 51. Staring In Disbelief:

33: cdor: Thanks for setting me straight on the voting rights thing, but it makes my point even more – based on the havoc even a small minority can cause in a parliamentary democracy, the arabs in Israel are already behaving 1000% better than their animal brethren on the other side of the wall. Besides which, 50 years is a LONG TIME demographically, and birthrates can change dramatically in only a 5 or 10 year time span (look at our own baby boom drop off). So be careful with those long term extrapolations. Read Ben Wattenburg’s book “Fewer” – it has some fascinating and startling data on birthrates even in the Arab world that cast Mark Steyn’s and your demographic predictions in some doubt. A functioning democracy that delivers the goods societally can produce surprising levels of mutual cooperation across bitterly divided segments of society (The Iraqi’s just allowed Christmas celebrations in Baghdad). I think the stark contrast between Gaza’s Hobbesian Hamasistan and Israel’s Brotherhood of Man (Arabs with voting rights in Israel!) will only grow over time, and only when the people of Gaza realize that it is their political leadership causing their suffering (not Israeli smart bombs) will there be progress.

Our fellow clubbers fantasies about a “Scorched Earth Steamroller” by Israel are not only politically impossible, but the very opposite of smart policy for Israel.

Dec 30, 2008 - 8:49 am 52. cjm:

hahahaha, that’s a good one. yes, the arabs are known for their pragmatism and realism. maybe you could go over there and help the process along.

Dec 30, 2008 - 8:55 am 53. dan:

agreed – israel is attacking hamas in order to eliminate its military infrastructure, which has been bolstered for several years by Iran. fatah is a more amenable enemy, not least because they have had the experience of being betrayed by hamas and hamas’s sponsors, who they now know will liquidate Fatah in the West Bank if HAMAS prevails in Gaza. it is hard to know how hezbollah’s entry into the fight would alter the chess board, but presumably russia’s recent delivery of state-of-the-art mig-29s to lebanon’s air force are meant to serve a purpose, even if only a decapitation strike against israel’s government. with india and pakistan massing quietly against eachother along their border and the upcoming legally-certain USA presidential transition things will be getting interesting in hurry, i’d think. probably not a bad idea to take that sabbatical year in fiji during 2009….

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:04 am 54. tanarg:

The goal of Islam is destruction of anyone and anything that is not Islamic. End of story. Until Islam itself is vanquished, we will have terror — here, there, Russia, China, the United States, Europe — everywhere.

The problem is Islam itself. Islam. Communism and socialism are benign compared to the cancer and evil of Islam. There is no reasoning with Islam; Muslims will fake reasonableness and peacefulness and attempt jihad from within. They are doing it now right here. Right now.

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:13 am 55. programmer:

Rhino, Rhino, Rhino:

When people think of the internet, they are usually talking about the world wide web. This, however, is just a program that rides on top of TCP/IP, using the creaky old HTTP protocol. One of my first essays into internet programming was to write a distributed file transfer program using socket layer communication, using my own protocol layer (it was pretty crappy, but it worked). Simple encryption of the data packets made it difficult to filter the transmissions. Now, as a practical matter, if the TCP/IP protocol were to be taken down or compromised, it is not too difficult to invent your own. Again, as part of an early project for an airline company, I helped invent a competing protocol stack against TCP/IP, however, it just became easier to use what every one else was already using. The point of all of this is, as has already been stated above, but perhaps not to the depth necessary, is trying to monitor and filter the internet is like trying to dam up a river with a fish net. The water just keeps going through. A bureaucrat would be happy with it, a few fish would be caught, but most fish would slip through with almost no effort.

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:24 am 56. programmer:

whoops,
Wrong thread!

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:41 am 57. NahnCee:

“Do you think the rest of the world would stand by and watch? Just saying…”

NahnCee asks when the “rest of the world” ever actually did anything except flop and mewl and squall and pass UN resolutions?

So yes. I do think the “rest of the world” will stand by and watch, while making lots of noise.

Dec 30, 2008 - 10:46 am 58. programmer:

Nahncee responds succintly:

So yes. I do think the “rest of the world” will stand by and watch, while making lots of noise.

programmer responds:

When you put it that way…..Past performance does seem to predict future non-action!

Dec 30, 2008 - 1:03 pm 59. twobyfour:

Even in most repressive and screwed up societies, there are bright people

Unfortunately, they are exceptions.

Dec 30, 2008 - 2:44 pm 60. NahnCee:

Headline in one of the dinosaur media that Bush and Rice are on the phone with Israel, trying to get them to call it off.

Do we believe that? I don’t.

Why on earth would the dynamic duo try to get Israel to back off, unless it’s camoflauge and misdirection so that Iran won’t notice when we fly in to bomb them back to the cradle of civilization?

I think, rather, that media is making up lies as headlines again, trying to make the American public *think* that the administration is anti-Israel.

Dec 30, 2008 - 3:49 pm 61. RWE:

Nahncee: TV just showed a White House spokesman saying they did not want a cease fire, given what Hamas will do if one occurs.

So I think in reality Bush and Rice just said to Israel “Fire for effect!”

Dec 30, 2008 - 4:59 pm 62. Tony:

I’m reading a book called “Sniper One” right now about a British sniper platoon in Al Amariya fighting Sadr’s loonies. It’s the longest, sustained description of how these crazy people fight that I have read. These people are insane. They seem to have endless supplies of weapons and suicidal murderers. And Western forces and Israelis are the ones constantly being put on the leash. The hell with this.

Dec 30, 2008 - 8:10 pm 63. Eggplant:

I have been trying to understand what Hamas’ strategic objective is but I’m having some trouble.

For months, hundreds of Qassam rockets have been launched from the Gaza Strip into Israel. The Qassams are primitive homemade rockets that represent a cost of about $200 a rocket and are dangerous to make. Someone in the Gaza strip has invested thousands of dollars and risked several people’s lives to support this activity (the people in the Gaza Strip barely have enough money to feed themselves). Given the cost and that this has been going on for months, it’s safe to say that the Hamas government is sanctioning this activity. Hamas must have a motivation. I’ve been going through some possibilities:

1) Hamas hopes to make life so miserable in Israel from constant random bombardment that the Jews will give up and leave.
2) Hamas desires an Israel over-reaction that will trigger a response by European and/or American moonbats.
3) The people behind the rockets are motivated by blind irrational hatred. Hamas shoots Qassams into Israel because they can, regardless of the consequences.

Explanation 1) is ridiculous. Long before the Israelis would throw in the sponge and leave the Middle East, they would invoke a scorched earth tactic against Hamas. Triggering such an Israeli reaction is obviously not a clever strategy.

Explanation 2) is not reasonable. Nobody counts on moonbats to do anything except make fools out of themselves. Did the moonbats save Saddam Hussein (they sure wanted to!)? Nobody with any intelligence counts on moonbats coming to the rescue.

Explanation 3) is a reasonable explanation for individual Palestinians who have gone insane with hatred but this is not a reasonable explanation for an entire government.

I know the answer must be obvious but I can’t see it.

Dec 30, 2008 - 9:02 pm 64. Lifeofthemind:

@Eggplant,
This disappoints me slightly.
1) Your explanation number one is worth investing in on some level for Israel’s enemies. THere is evidence it works. Emigration of young people preferring to raise families in America is a real threat to Israel. This is a long term strategy to damage morale, inhibit investment and encourage political and social fissures.

2) The Europeans and Americans pay the Palestinians to be dysfunctional. In fact Uncle Sam just agreed to send them another $86 million. Further just because Saddam miscalculated doesn’t mean that the entire premise is sure to fail. The last 5 years have been a universal agreement to bury the evidence that justified the invasion of Iraq and a series of confirmations, to our enemies, that we have lost the will to confront them and may be induced to protect them. The Americans did vote, maybe a majority did, for Obama. He has advisors who seriously want to use the US military to defend the Palestinians from Israelis.

3) The deep and transnational nature of this death cult is an essential feature of it. That is why it appears inescapable to those within it. The people of Gaza may be at risk but those who desire this conflict do not hesitate to expend them. Many of them are willing to expend themselves, not all are cowards, They have been taught for years to seek and glorify death. Do not cheapen that by refusing to take it seriously,

4) Finally there is the additional consideration that an Israeli invasion of Gaza could serve the interests of Hamas and their enablers in the Moslem Brotherhood or al Queda and in Syria or Iran because it will serve to weaken other Arab governments. The thrones in Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Egypt (Mubarak’s effort to make it as hereditary as North Korea hangs by a thread) are tottering. The potentates hate Hamas more than they hate the Jews but they fear the mobs.

Dec 30, 2008 - 11:24 pm 65. LFMayor:

No need to crawl cellar to cellar or advance past each destroyed strong point one at a time. Why not just seal the supply lines? The small area involved coupled with the population density makes starving them into submission a real possibility. I’d even post listings of the various Hamas leaders who are now in hiding with a chart of culinary delights that each is worth. Have the ELINT and PSYOP troops override all media inbound and pipe in Food Network 24/7.

Maybe 2 weeks before people started cashing in those Hamas “foodstamps” to the Israelis?

Dec 30, 2008 - 11:46 pm 66. tanarg:

Eggplant,

Islam’s goal is world domination by Islam.

That’s the answer to your question.

It it true wherever you encounter Islam.

But don’t believe ME. Learn about it yourself and act accordingly.

Dec 31, 2008 - 12:33 am 67. Eggplant:

Responding to Lifeofthemind’s comments:

1) “There is evidence it works. Emigration of young people preferring to raise families in America is a real threat to Israel.”

The Israelis have Moslem controlled thermonuclear weapons hanging over their heads and are surrounded by savage fanatics. In such an environment, it’s hard to understand why anyone would want to raise a family in Israel. I would argue that people are leaving Israel because they’re afraid of getting nuked (Israel has no future) and not due to random Qassam rockets.

2) “The Europeans and Americans pay the Palestinians to be dysfunctional.”

Agreed. However they’re not paying the Palestinians baksheesh to shoot Qassam rockets at the Israelis. The baksheesh is supposed to discourage this.

3) “The deep and transnational nature of this death cult is an essential feature of it. That is why it appears inescapable to those within it.”

I think I understand the death cult aspect of Islamic fanaticism. The death cult explains the suicide belts, face-to-face murder, etc. However randomly shooting Qassam rockets into Israel does not seem to be consistent with being part of a death cult, e.g. the people launching the rockets are anonymous, don’t see their victim’s terror and live to fight another day.

4) “Finally there is the additional consideration that an Israeli invasion of Gaza could serve the interests of Hamas and their enablers in the Moslem Brotherhood or al Queda and in Syria or Iran because it will serve to weaken other Arab governments.”

I don’t see this. Israel’s invasion of Gaza would just be another iteration of Groundhog’s Day. The Arab governments engage in proforma lip service and nothing more. The Iranians might see an opportunity in Hamas’ activity but that’s another story.

Again, I see no clear strategy behind Hamas launching Qassam rockets. Maybe it all boils down to being part of a death cult but it’s hard to imagine why the Hamas government would sanction this. What’s their desired end point other than being exterminated by the Israelis?

Pardon me if I seem obtuse. Perhaps I’m trying to apply reason to a situation that has nothing to do with being reasonable.

Dec 31, 2008 - 1:28 am 68. Jonathan Levy:

Eggplant:
To us, it’s definitely #3. To them, it appears differently.

Hamas presents itself as a leader of the Palestinians. Its claim is based on its preserving their Honor.
Their Honor is preserved by their refusal to be defeated by Israel. Their refusal to surrender is based on their willingness to strike at Israel. The price they pay is not a deterrent to them – on the contrary, it increases their Honor. The higher the price they are willing to pay, the greater their Honor. Their game is “Let me lose both my eyes, so long as I poke out one of yours”.

There is a parallel here with the habit of murdering their daughters for the sake of family honor – the more they are willing to sacrifice to preserve their Honor, the greater it becomes.

To the western mind, used to cost-benefit anaylises, this can only be described as “blind, irrational hatred”.

Richard Landes (theaugeanstables.com) has some insights into this mentality.

Dec 31, 2008 - 1:38 am 69. Unfettered Blather » Blog Archive » Obsessions over the less than innocent:

[...] of the US for strikes that kill, but nobody seems to shed a tear when you notice the kind of misery you bring upon yourself when you embrace thugs and murderors as your civic leaders and [...]

Dec 31, 2008 - 10:16 am 70. Watcher of Weasels » Year End Weasel Watching:

[...] Submitted By: Cheat-Seeking Missiles – Belmont Club – The People of the Shadows [...]

Dec 31, 2008 - 10:44 am 71. Eggplant:

Jonathan Levy said:

“Hamas presents itself as a leader of the Palestinians. Its claim is based on its preserving their Honor. Their Honor is preserved by their refusal to be defeated by Israel. Their refusal to surrender is based on their willingness to strike at Israel. The price they pay is not a deterrent to them – on the contrary, it increases their Honor.”

Jonathan’s explanation has a “ring of truth”. Hamas is not actually pursuing a strategy with a rational end point but rather they are attempting to maintain a “state of mind” without regard towards ultimate consequences. Perhaps Israel can create a situation where Palestinians who believe in coexistence can achieve a greater state of “honor” versus Palestinians who have opted for slow suicide.

This thread has almost expired. I’ll pursue this line of thought in a more recent thread.

Dec 31, 2008 - 11:11 am 72. Cheat Seeking Missiles » Wednesday Reading - 2008/2009 Edition:

[...] Submitted By: Cheat-Seeking Missiles – Belmont Club – The People of the Shadows [...]

Dec 31, 2008 - 11:38 am 73. cdor:

#51 Staring
Are you kidding about being disruptive in the Knesset? Click this tiny url. It is a link to google search page. Read a few aricles about how the Arab members of the Knesset reacted to Israel’s decision to attack Gaza: http://tinyurl.com/7j4pfq

A far as demographics are concerned, I gota say once more, Are you kidding me? Look at the growth of the muslim population in Europe relative to Christian and Jew. Multiple wives with multiple children per wife.

Oh and, yes, Iraq. Please do a little research into the Iraqi sentiment toward Israel and their reaction to the Gaza counter offensive. I see no evidence of Arab Muslim evolution into modernity.

I will give you this much…there may be a great deal of fear amongst many muslims of their radical counterparts. But then, given the Israeli arab reaction, I wonder if there is a “moderate” muslim.

Dec 31, 2008 - 1:40 pm 74. Zenster:

8. Alexis: Real peace happens when those who actually live with the consequences of “peace” want peace more than any outsider …

This is the bottom line. Nothing will change until terrorism carries with it a prohibitive price tag for those who support it, be it overtly, covertly or even tacitly. As things stand, we shower the Palestinians with money for engaging in institutionalized deceit. We liberate Muslims from tyranny only so that they may install their own Islamic-approved version of tyranny.

The practice of terrorism, along with shari’a law as well, should both be accompanied by such severe retaliation and sanctions that both are rejected for the morally bankrupt practices that they are.

13. Gary Rosen: It looks like a lot of Arab countries are throwing Hamas under the bus. This is good but not as good as it sounds, because they are undoubtedly doing this for their own strategic reasons rather than from any genuine soul-searching about Hamas’ depravity.

At best, the relative silence of Muslims over Hamas’ well-deserved drubbing is an anti-terrorist sop being thrown towards the West. Nowhere do we see any condemnation of Hamas’ genocidal policy or its refusal to recognize the Israeli state. Those would be substantial changes and therefore they are not to be expected.

28. Mark: Hezbollah and Hamas will retreat/recede when the leadership that most profits loses its life and treasure, resulting in a second tier leadership that prefers to stay alive and rich. The elimination of one prominent Hezbollah terrorist in Damascus did more to silence Hezbollah than a slapdash, large-scale Israeli incursion into Lebannon.

Can we expect to see some high profile disappearances/eliminations?

Targeted killings are one of the only low-level conflict methods of halting terrorism. Practices such as information hoarding, preference and other tribal-based traditions militate against power migration. Power vacuums are toxic to such violence prone types and best serve anti-jihad ends.

Barring targeted killings, the West is faced with massively disproportionate retaliation on a scale that has become repugnant to minds entirely disencumbered from all memories of World War II. One way or the other, Islam must be paid in its own coin.

Jan 4, 2009 - 9:30 pm

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