This is the bottom line. Nothing will change until terrorism carries with it a prohibitive price tag for those who support it, be it overtly, covertly or even tacitly. As things stand, we shower the Palestinians with money for engaging in institutionalized deceit. We liberate Muslims from tyranny only so that they may install their own Islamic-approved version of tyranny.

The practice of terrorism, along with shari’a law as well, should both be accompanied by such severe retaliation and sanctions that both are rejected for the morally bankrupt practices that they are.

13. Gary Rosen: It looks like a lot of Arab countries are throwing Hamas under the bus. This is good but not as good as it sounds, because they are undoubtedly doing this for their own strategic reasons rather than from any genuine soul-searching about Hamas’ depravity.

At best, the relative silence of Muslims over Hamas’ well-deserved drubbing is an anti-terrorist sop being thrown towards the West. Nowhere do we see any condemnation of Hamas’ genocidal policy or its refusal to recognize the Israeli state. Those would be substantial changes and therefore they are not to be expected.

28. Mark: Hezbollah and Hamas will retreat/recede when the leadership that most profits loses its life and treasure, resulting in a second tier leadership that prefers to stay alive and rich. The elimination of one prominent Hezbollah terrorist in Damascus did more to silence Hezbollah than a slapdash, large-scale Israeli incursion into Lebannon.

Can we expect to see some high profile disappearances/eliminations?

Targeted killings are one of the only low-level conflict methods of halting terrorism. Practices such as information hoarding, preference and other tribal-based traditions militate against power migration. Power vacuums are toxic to such violence prone types and best serve anti-jihad ends.

Barring targeted killings, the West is faced with massively disproportionate retaliation on a scale that has become repugnant to minds entirely disencumbered from all memories of World War II. One way or the other, Islam must be paid in its own coin.

A far as demographics are concerned, I gota say once more, Are you kidding me? Look at the growth of the muslim population in Europe relative to Christian and Jew. Multiple wives with multiple children per wife.

Oh and, yes, Iraq. Please do a little research into the Iraqi sentiment toward Israel and their reaction to the Gaza counter offensive. I see no evidence of Arab Muslim evolution into modernity.

I will give you this much…there may be a great deal of fear amongst many muslims of their radical counterparts. But then, given the Israeli arab reaction, I wonder if there is a “moderate” muslim.

“Hamas presents itself as a leader of the Palestinians. Its claim is based on its preserving their Honor. Their Honor is preserved by their refusal to be defeated by Israel. Their refusal to surrender is based on their willingness to strike at Israel. The price they pay is not a deterrent to them – on the contrary, it increases their Honor.”

Jonathan’s explanation has a “ring of truth”. Hamas is not actually pursuing a strategy with a rational end point but rather they are attempting to maintain a “state of mind” without regard towards ultimate consequences. Perhaps Israel can create a situation where Palestinians who believe in coexistence can achieve a greater state of “honor” versus Palestinians who have opted for slow suicide.

This thread has almost expired. I’ll pursue this line of thought in a more recent thread.

Hamas presents itself as a leader of the Palestinians. Its claim is based on its preserving their Honor.
Their Honor is preserved by their refusal to be defeated by Israel. Their refusal to surrender is based on their willingness to strike at Israel. The price they pay is not a deterrent to them – on the contrary, it increases their Honor. The higher the price they are willing to pay, the greater their Honor. Their game is “Let me lose both my eyes, so long as I poke out one of yours”.

There is a parallel here with the habit of murdering their daughters for the sake of family honor – the more they are willing to sacrifice to preserve their Honor, the greater it becomes.

To the western mind, used to cost-benefit anaylises, this can only be described as “blind, irrational hatred”.

Richard Landes (theaugeanstables.com) has some insights into this mentality.

1) “There is evidence it works. Emigration of young people preferring to raise families in America is a real threat to Israel.”

The Israelis have Moslem controlled thermonuclear weapons hanging over their heads and are surrounded by savage fanatics. In such an environment, it’s hard to understand why anyone would want to raise a family in Israel. I would argue that people are leaving Israel because they’re afraid of getting nuked (Israel has no future) and not due to random Qassam rockets.

2) “The Europeans and Americans pay the Palestinians to be dysfunctional.”

Agreed. However they’re not paying the Palestinians baksheesh to shoot Qassam rockets at the Israelis. The baksheesh is supposed to discourage this.

3) “The deep and transnational nature of this death cult is an essential feature of it. That is why it appears inescapable to those within it.”

I think I understand the death cult aspect of Islamic fanaticism. The death cult explains the suicide belts, face-to-face murder, etc. However randomly shooting Qassam rockets into Israel does not seem to be consistent with being part of a death cult, e.g. the people launching the rockets are anonymous, don’t see their victim’s terror and live to fight another day.

4) “Finally there is the additional consideration that an Israeli invasion of Gaza could serve the interests of Hamas and their enablers in the Moslem Brotherhood or al Queda and in Syria or Iran because it will serve to weaken other Arab governments.”

I don’t see this. Israel’s invasion of Gaza would just be another iteration of Groundhog’s Day. The Arab governments engage in proforma lip service and nothing more. The Iranians might see an opportunity in Hamas’ activity but that’s another story.

Again, I see no clear strategy behind Hamas launching Qassam rockets. Maybe it all boils down to being part of a death cult but it’s hard to imagine why the Hamas government would sanction this. What’s their desired end point other than being exterminated by the Israelis?

Pardon me if I seem obtuse. Perhaps I’m trying to apply reason to a situation that has nothing to do with being reasonable.

Islam’s goal is world domination by Islam.

That’s the answer to your question.

It it true wherever you encounter Islam.

But don’t believe ME. Learn about it yourself and act accordingly.

Maybe 2 weeks before people started cashing in those Hamas “foodstamps” to the Israelis?