113 Comments

1. Charles:

Book ends.

The Saudis get it. (if this means what I think it means)

The saudi sunni religious conservatives came to power at the same time as the iranian shia religious conservatives in the 1970’s on the backs of the spike oil prices. high oil prices represented the first time in centuries anyone in that part of the world had anything like real power and the religious authorities wanted a piece of it.

now I think they understand–if US stated goals of oil independence are to be believed — that oil pricing power may be down for good. that part of the blame has to be put at the feet of the mullahs.

Feb 14, 2009 - 2:58 pm 2. Walt:

I posted this near the end of the previous thread, but since it’s St. Valentine’s Day I am posting it here again.

Daughters are special. Having a daughter makes a man feel like he accomplished something. I wrote this for my daughter a few Valentine’s Days ago, and offer it here to all Belmont Clubbers fortunate enough to be fathers of daughters.

TO MY DAUGHTER, ON SAINT VALENTINE’S DAY

The dawning paints the night sky pink
With rose and amber hue
To look at it I have to think
The morning loves you too.
The rising sun climbs in the sky
Too bright for us to view
Another reason I know why
The noontime loves you too.
As sunset draws the curtain low
And sky turns dusk from blue
I ken full well that this I know
The evening loves you too.
And as I trundle off to bed
I think always of you
And count the thousand times I’ve said
Your father loves you too.

Happy Saint Valentine’s Day
Walt Erickson

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:05 pm 3. Tony:

Speaking of savants, I imagine my Bizzaro World self as a liberal who could carry on a logical, friendly argument. My regular world self would ask, “Do you still think it would have been a good idea to surrender in Iraq in 2007?”

Bizzaro T sez: “Oh yes, the world would be much more fair now.”

Regular T: “No, I mean, today, now that Obama says the Iranians have a nuclear weapons program, and they just put a satellite in orbit last week.”

Bizzaro T: “Yes, of course, it is only natural that Iran would need ICBM’s whether or not we had surrendered in Iraq, they need them to protect themselves from US. You see, we would now enjoy a natural rivalry in the sand, because Al Qaeda would now be ruling Iraq. And Al Qaeda would, rightfully, be in possession of all of the chemical, biological and nuclear weapons scientists and technicians and designs from Saddam’s time. You remember them, the Duelfer report describes them. So, it would be a neat sort of chess match, with Saddam and the Iranian mullahs facing each other down with WMD’s right now. Don’t you agree?”

Regular T: “No.”

Bizzaro T: “Ahh, you are such a square. If one country has nuclear weapons, ALL countries should have nuclear weapons. Same for Chem/Bio, it’s only fair. Why are you such an imperialist bastard?”

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:45 pm 4. NahnCee:

Interesting that Abdullah feels strong enough to move against the Wahhabi’s — if that’s what’s really happening, and it’s not just the Saudi version of forced retirement and putting deadweight out to pasture.

I wonder how the King feels about Gitmo releasees flocking back to the Kingdom, going through good Muslim re-education programs, and then gathering in the south 40 of Arab desert to start planning on how to blow shit up again. As a leader and a father, it seems logical that he’d start getting a little testy about their ingratitude.

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:16 pm 5. blert:

Just perhaps this is some blow-back from over-financing the Jihad into Pakistan.

All of that NSA wire-work may have fingered these clowns as being the venture capitalists for the shadow army.

They would certainly be pretty tight with the Crown Prince — the ex-Defense Minister.

So perhaps this has elements of a power play.

This is an event worth following….

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:30 pm 6. Dan:

What’s unusual is that these actions saw the light of day.

I should think something like this would normally happen out of view of the press, no?

The question to me is; what signal is being sent, and to whom?

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:42 pm 7. RWE:

I suspect that this is a reaction to the recent Iraqi election and the general trends in Iraq.

Saudi Arabia may look rather backward compared to the rest of the nations in the region, but next to the new Iraq it looks like a bunch of clowns in funny suits. Abbot and Costello run a country with the Three Stooges as technical advisors and the Marx Brothers as the religious leadership.

And that the Iraqis have overcome tremendous challenges and chosen a secular and democratic approach is emphasized by the predominantly Shia population and its Sunni minority. It’s bad enough that some Sunnis next door finally seem to be getting their act together but that they have done so alongside a Shia population must make it especially gaulling.

Recall that Shia believe that Islam should be led by descendants of Mohammaed while Sunnis think that the leader should be selected by the people. So Shia have decided to select a leader and Sunnis have voted for the same leader. Admittedly, this is a national leader and not a religious one but the two tend to be seen as closely linked in Islamic countries.

So maybe the House of Saud saw the handwriting on the wall – there is a revolution coming and it ain’t a Whabbist one. At the very least try to keep from looking like fools and at worst be careful to not P.O. the people next door, who appear to be thoroughly disgusted with the traditional ways of the region.

Finally, the election of Obama in the U.S. and the Iranian satellite launch may have the Saudis fearful of the U.S. entering a 1973 style “Who gives a damn they are all just a bunch of gooks anyway” approach to Middle East foreign relations. They need new friends.

Feb 14, 2009 - 5:29 pm 8. PA Cat:

2 Walt

Thank you for posting that. I hope your daughter won’t mind that you shared it with the BC. May you have many more Valentine’s Days to celebrate together.

Feb 14, 2009 - 5:30 pm 9. Insufficiently Sensitive:

The saudi sunni religious conservatives came to power at the same time as the iranian shia religious conservatives in the 1970’s on the backs of the spike oil prices. high oil prices represented the first time in centuries anyone in that part of the world had anything like real power and the religious authorities wanted a piece of it.

Uh, Wahhabism has been official Saudi policy since al-Wahhab himself at the end of the 18th century, and was part of the Saudi conquest that captured Mecca as late as 1926.

I should think that if King Abdullah’s confrontation of his religious coterie is really a housecleaning (and if indeed some ‘moderate’ Sunnis have been admitted to some power, it is), he’d better double the palace guard. Some of his Salafist scholars may try to put more than doctrine into his noggin.

We need to see what happens next. If the process, by which the lovely old mosques of Bosnia have been replaced by oil-financed concrete hulks straight from Riyadh, can be abated or reversed, may it really is Valentine’s day. But more likely there are some further murky factional doings yet to be manifested in scenic downtown Riyadh.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:01 pm 10. NahnCee:

Arabs are feeling the global economic downturn too. I know the Emirates are concerned about their US real estate holdings, so I wonder how rich your average Arab named Saud is these days. Let alone your run-of-the-mill terrorist-funding cleric.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:29 pm 11. Jim Nicholas:

Walt,

Happy Valentine’s day, and all the other days, to you and your daughter.

Jim

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:52 pm 12. whiskey:

Hasn’t anyone here read Lawrence Wright’s “Looming Tower?”

The Wahabbists have always been uneasy rivals to the Kingdom’s royal family. At times suspected of plots and ambitions of their own. Including the 1979 takeover of the Mecca Mosque.

What this dismissal likely signals is that the King got wind of a plot, and so dismissed the man at it’s center. He would have preferred something else but the King is weaker than people think. The KSA exists as a complex tribal network of loyalties, payoffs, patronage, kinship, and rivalries.

Moreover, if this is Wretchard or Tigerhawk posting this, the idea that Muslims can be reconciled with the Western notions of love is as laughable as making a Great White shark into a cuddly pet.

Reality check: polygamy and suppression of women is as incompatible with romantic love and free choice as endless, hedonistic status couplings are. Neither form the foundation of a humane and decent society.

Muslims can no more adapt to Western romantic love of one man to one woman, freely, than Great White Sharks snuggle up to you as a household pet. Nothing about Muslims or Islam is compatible with Western notions of love, romantic, familial, or divine. In that Pope Benedict and myself are in full agreement.

Feb 14, 2009 - 8:01 pm 13. ledger:

Happy Valentine’s Day:

“A New York Muslim leader has… beheaded his wife. Muzzammil Hassan was a community leader and a so called “moderate” Muslim. He was the founder and Chief Executive of Bridges TV a show started to help combat the negative perceptions of Islam and also to build bridges to the non-Muslim world. Does that include beheadings?”

See: Moderate New York Muslim Leader Beheads Wife
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/02/moderate-new-york-muslim-leader-beheads.html

Feb 14, 2009 - 8:43 pm 14. Dave:

Whiskey: Equestrian Excrement! You have just said that the biologically rooted capabilities of human beings are genetically altered by what religion they belong to.

Were that the case, there could be no such thing as natural (God-given) rights, or natural law, or natural liberty, nor anything else that enables what we know as Western Civilization.

Under your scenario, to believe would be the same thing as to create. And that does exceed what H. Sapiens can accomplish.

And BTW: Have you paid a lick of attention to what Benedict XVI has been up to? Ever notice how he has gotten a whole bunch of non-Arab, non-Persian, Muslim leaders to cooperate with his goals? Some Saudis just may have gotten the glimmer of a pending Divine Revelation to clean up their act. Time will tell.

There can be no such thing as a human culture completely devoid of love or any of the other virtues that enable species survival. Else, huge swaths of humans would have long since made themselves extinct and in doing so removed the survivial capabilities of others.

And now for a final and theological note: Ever hear of a Jewish Carpenter that preached
a little over 2000 years ago? Had a message about universal love and salvation. Offered quite a bit of proof that such existed. Nobody has EVER been able to contradict him, either.

Feb 14, 2009 - 9:04 pm 15. Heh:

I think Whiskey #12 is right. Already in 1869 Mark Twain observed in “The Innocents Abroad” that the Muslims (or Mohammedans, as they were called then) did not know or understand the concept of romantic love. You need a monogamous oriented society for that, among other things. In Islam, women generally are property or currency to buy and sell, and that’s it.

Feb 14, 2009 - 9:35 pm 16. Jamie Irons:

Walt,

Your daughter is lucky to have a father like you.

Blessed with four fine sons, nonetheless I do miss having had a daughter.

Jamie Irons

Feb 14, 2009 - 10:07 pm 17. Lifeofthemind:

Osama conceived as Al Qaeda as the Salafist opposition to the House of Saud. The original Saudi campaign against the other tribes of present day Saudi Arabia including the Hashemites of the Hejaz relied on the Salafis Ikhwan movement. They were broken as an independent force in 1930 but represented the continuing dream of a true Islamic army that had the God given right to live as bandit parasites off of their presumably degenerate neighbors. Remember the original vision of Islam was for only a minority to convert and the majority to live as dhimmis to support the believers. Believers would also be driven farther afield to find new communities of unbelievers to pillage. For a few years the Americans did the House of Saud a favor by consuming the true believers in Iraq. This was analogous to the role that the Russian Front in WW-II served for Francisco Franco. He was able to ship the real fascists off with the Blue Division to where they conveniently got killed. Spain was a rather peaceful and non-ideological country after WW-II, which greatly aided the subsequent transition to democracy. Saudi Arabia probably would need a far deeper shock to truly break the Salafist grip. The House of Saud is itself of dubious legitimacy without the support of religious extremists, having evicted the true descendants of Muhammad from the Hejaz, and facing declining oil revenues. They are not all fools but they face an uncertain future.

Feb 14, 2009 - 10:33 pm 18. twobyfour:

The king changed the makeup of an influential body of religious scholars known as the Grand Ulama Commission. Its 21 members will now represent all branches of Sunni Islam, instead of the single strict Hanbali sect that has always governed it.

That is very significant. Did the contract with al-Wahhab expire?

And yes, seems that a substantial number of Salafis was killed off on their Iraq expeditions… or they moved to Western Europe.

Feb 14, 2009 - 11:04 pm 19. NahnCee:

“…or they moved to Western Europe.”

i.e., Paris and London.

Feb 14, 2009 - 11:16 pm 20. Peter Boston:

The only term in the political lexicon more repulsive than House Democrat is Saudi Royal. There are far too many of each, and the world is worse because of it.

Feb 15, 2009 - 12:51 am 21. USpace:

.
St. Valentine’s Day came from a priest named Valentine who was imprisoned in 270 AD for marrying women with Roman soldiers, thereby supposedly ‘weakening’ them, so the Government was against the soldiers getting married. He fell in love with his jailer’s daughter and signed his last letter to her “From Your Valentine”.

It’s good to see that love and the market are stronger than unreasonableness. Since many Islamic clerics condemn it as a non-Muslim Holiday, and say that Muslims may not celebrate a Christian (or Pagan) holiday; and since their ‘Religious Police’ enforce this, it’s pretty safe to say that Sharia Law is against this. Not all Muslims of course, just the Law governing them in Saudi Arabia and other countries.

India’s radical Hindus are rabidly against V-Day too. There will be goon squads out looking for cuddly couples, who if caught will be taken to a government office and forcibly married.

How very enlightened and civilized.
.
here’s an absurd thought -
your Supreme God says
outlaw Valentine’s Day

confiscate ALL red roses
keep men and women apart

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
Valentine’s Day is evil

it just reminds the people
about Christianity

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
destroy ALL Valentine’s cards

remove items colored red
from all the store’s shelves

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe fears
a Christian minority

even though they may not build
or repair their churches
.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.

.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:23 am 22. Karen Yvonne:

“…we shall harness for God the energies of love.” Not as long as Islam stands in the way.

The Saudi King’s appointment of a female deputy minister – she’ll be deputy of girl’s education – along with the other shakeups are meant to soften the image of brutal bloody barbarians that the civilized world sees. They are not insensible to the way we view them. And they may be sincere in wanting to tone down the harshness. But it won’t change anything about Islam at its core, which has nothing to do with love, no matter how enthusiastic Beirut gets over Valentine’s Day. Whiskey is 100% correct to say that Islam is incompatible with Western notions of love, whether romantic, familial or divine. And no, Dave, that doesn’t contradict natural law. Individual Muslims have the same capacities as anybody else – as evidenced by Muslims who convert or become atheists – but Islam actively works against any realization of their God-given rights, as we understand them.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:09 am 23. Melissus:

Tony:

Your Bizzaro T may be an imbecile, but I fear he is probably also a prophet. We shall sooner or later wake up to a world in which every nation has its own stock of nuclear weapons. We can slow it down, maybe, I don’t think we can stop it.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:06 am 24. Al_Batross:

I agree we should avoid reading too much hope into any news from the KSA, but anyone interested in this subject may want to read Rajaa Al-Sane’s “The Girls of Riyadh”:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_of_Riyadh

Personally, I did not find it hugely entertaining, but it does offer some insights into the lives of the more fortunate young women and more thoughtful young men of the KSA.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:14 am 25. Don51:

Superiority of western romantic love? Bah.

We’ve had serial polygamy and polyandry since no fault divorce took hold over 40 years ago. We on our second and third generation of children being raised by adults who were not their progenitors, if there is even a two adult family at all. One of the major intractable factors in poverty is single female head of household. So much for ‘love will keep us together’.

And dishonorable ancient practices? Tell that to the male who the state dictates must support a child even though DNA clearly shows the child not to be his and that the female had clearly engaged in adultery, bearing false witness and conspiracy is not to be held accountable, but rewarded.

We have some house cleaning to do as well, as we’re pointing fingers.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:23 am 26. Doug:

You left out single female with new octuplets.
Luckily BHO, Harry, and Nancy have reversed Welfare Reform.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:41 am 27. Doug:

AMERICA AND ISLAM
HEADLESS BODY IN GUTLESS PRESS
[Mark Steyn]
Just asking, but are beheadings common in western New York? I used to spend a lot of time in that neck of the woods and I don’t remember decapitation as a routine form of murder. Yet the killing of Aasiya Hassan seems to have elicited a very muted response.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:41 am 28. Wadeusaf:

Announced were a female deputy minister of Girls education, a new minister of education and a new head of the ministry of information, in addition to replacing the head religious cop and the diversification of the the Grand Ulama Commission, King Abdulah has shuffled the Consultative Council.

It is a new day in KSA, of that there is no doubt. Given the time required to make and implement the changes I am certain that these selections were made with care and a nod toward permanence. We will see if the House of Saud has the horsepower to keep the changes. I believe it may.

Hey Usama, ya wanna be Saudi Valentine, how do you like them apples?

Feb 15, 2009 - 6:03 am 29. Peter Boston:

Doug

That was domestic abuse. The usual stuff.

Feb 15, 2009 - 6:07 am 30. marymcl:

Doug @27 – you beat me to it. And this guy is one of those moderate Muslims we’re always hearing so much about.

http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/578644.html

Feb 15, 2009 - 7:28 am 31. Jay:

I read the link to the buffalonews. Even the creative folks who write the Onion probably could not come up with that “worst possible domestic violence”.
When you go to a family doctor there are posters about signs of family violence. We should print a poster that says something like this: If you bring your wife in for treatment without her head we will report this to the appropriate agencies.
Of course that would be “racist”.

Feb 15, 2009 - 8:03 am 32. geoffgo:

Jaime,

Don’t be sad about that chromosony-thingy. Now you can get it fixed and have a daughter, or 8, or 64 on our dime. 8^)

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:24 am 33. buddy larsen:

i think it’d be cool to splurge & hire one a them surrygate mothers to have nine identical clone daughters and then raise ‘em ’til they old enough to make a softball team. then you take ‘em on the road, county fairs, parties, the borscht belt, heck a guy could clear hundreds of dollars a season –and that’s net, baby !

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:55 am 34. Gary Ogletree:

The Wahabi sect came into power around 1800 in central Arabia when Al Wahab married the Saudi king’s daughter and converted the clan to his strict interpretation of Islam. The Saudis lost power to the Hashemites who allied with Lawrence to oust the Ottoman Turks. Naturally the Saudis used Jihad to rally the overthrow of the “apostate” Hashemites. Just in time for oil to be found in abundance. I doubt if there is any period when the Wahabis were anything but conservative and certifiably insane.

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:55 am 35. geoffgo:

All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.

I beg to differ adamently. Without the right to own and dispose of that which one produces; ie, individual property rights, one can be forcefully starved to extinction. (see History)

While important to liberty’s maintenance freedom of speech is impossible to attain absent individual property rights.

All taxation is a direct infringement on individual property rights. If it wasn’t, the citizenry would give willingly.

When you’re free to speak, talk is cheap and everyone gets to do it; no matter the level of logic or reason or lack thereof.

Focus first on the property rights (and gun-ownership) issues, cause otherwise you’ll be “screaming truth” from a cell.

Up to Jan. 20th, our worst enemies could never have dreamed of getting us in this weakened state, and yet they could not have planned it any better. Pure coincidence?

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:59 am 36. Insufficiently Sensitive:

Naturally the Saudis used Jihad to rally the overthrow of the “apostate” Hashemites. Just in time for oil to be found in abundance. I doubt if there is any period when the Wahabis were anything but conservative and certifiably insane.

What’s left out of the story is some two-headed British influence. Lawrence’s alliance with the Hashemites in Mecca was supported by the Foreign Office, and at end of WW I was torpedoed despite the FO by the Sykes-Picot agreement. But the India Office put its weight behind King Saud, and with such help his army conquered the territory, including Mecca (evicting the hereditary Muslim Hashemites, who were certainly not ‘moderates’ – they didn’t allow Christians into Mecca). Al-Saud’s campaign might have been a ‘jihad’, or just naked conquest, like much other Muslim expansion into weaker territories no matter who ran them.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:10 am 37. buddy larsen:

always good to remember that of all the existing tribes, only the Hashemite predate the great schism and stands “acceptable” to both Sunni & Shiite.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:25 am 38. Dave:

@Karen Yvonne #22: Conceded that the brainwashing prevalent in certain areas is incompatible with love.

It is also possible that the religion called “Islam” is incapable of promoting love.

However, to say that “no Muslim” is capable of love is to put the mouth in motion without putting the brain in gear.

Being able to distinguish between paragraph (1) and paragraph (3) above is rather critical to our survival.

BTW: In the early XXth Century there was a mini-caliphate forming on Mindanao. Those behind it recieved a Divine Revelation.

The new cry was: “There is no authority but Pershing and John Browning is his armorer.”

Those abrogation verses Ibrahim discusses would seem to be a bit of key terrain. If they suddenly get interpreted as means of defense rather than as license to loot, that which defines Islam just might be fit for polite company.

Again, we gotta wait and see.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:32 am 39. steveaz:

One thing to add to RWE’s analysis…

The Arabian Peninsula’s ruling classes understand that the Kingdom has a long mercantilist past. Even before its consolidation, the population and the economy revolved around “Dhou (’dow’) Commerce.” These ancient mariners participated, pioneered and profited in an Indio-Pacific prototype of today’s trans-oceanic order, so the Kingdom understands the big three, which are, the importance of long-range trade among varied peoples, stability at the bazaar, and capitalism.

I think this cosmopolitanism predisposes the coastal-ized, trade-oriented sectors of Saudi Arabia’s economy to respond overwhelmingly to Iraq’s new model. And the wave appears to be washing up finally in Riyadh.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:36 am 40. geoffgo:

Buddy,

Save a little in the upbringing expenses.

Eddie Feigner – “The King and His Court” fielded a 4-man softball team that beat everybody they faced.

http://www.kingandhiscourt.com/

His daughter now has a 4-girl softball team that pretty much beats everybody they face. She throws at over 75MPH from 45′ feet away, and has 2.5′ curveball – pitcher, catcher, 1st base and outfielder is all they need.

When my USAF team played an exhibition game against Eddie and crew back in 1963 at Plattsburgh AFB, he struck out our best hitter (.460ish), pitching from second base. He no-hit a team that went to the Air Force finals. Our pitcher was MVP of the All Service tourny. We thought we were pretty good softball players.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:39 am 41. buddy larsen:

geoffgo @ 35, re jan 20th zone-flooding, that’s doctrine –expressing Lenin principle “worse is better”. Behind the the maestro’s hurdy gurdy bleating ‘we are your friends, we will not hurt you’ in the dancing colored spotlights and whooshing jets of fog, a dozen ninja teams broke from the calliope van and disappeared into the root beer and cotton candy woozied crowd.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:50 am 42. buddy larsen:

oh, hell yes –the king and his court –they did exhibitions everywhere –even Lafayette, Louisiana –where i saw em as a kid. they were literally unbelievable –nobody could hit the guy.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:59 am 43. Morton Doodslag:

Good Lord! Nearly 8 years after their demon spawn massacred 3,000 in the U.S.A, after their vile Islam raped America and bludgeoned Americans to death, after countless calls for our death, after countless celebrations when we died at their filth covered hands, the scabrous serpent king of Saudi Arabia fires a couple hatred spewing clerics, a mere driplet out of thousands of similar driplets, and posters above, (including, apparently, Wretchard himself) gaze into the Devil’s eyes and wonder if “change” is finally taking root in Hatred’s Kingdom…

This shows me that terror works, that Islam is working — and that its victims become so utterly desperate for reform that the slightest gesture on the part of these hideous enemies will be enough to grasp at for some.

Wake up. Grow up.

This enemy is more entrenched, and more vicious today than he was yesterday. This enemy is winning. The latest downturn in oil may slightly hamper Islam’s rampaging Jihad, but only slightly. Remember, they accomplished most of their advances for Islam while oil hovered under $30/barrel, it’s approximate current price. This gesture by this blood stained King of Saudi Arabia represents nothing.

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:09 am 44. steveaz:

@41 – LOL.

I think Lenin said “woozier is better,” too. He wasn’t a dumb man.

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:13 am 45. geoffgo:

OT

Hillary leaves for Asia. To meet with finaciers and negotiate new “rewards” programs?

Chris Wallace asked her spokesperson/apologist “What with all the Presidential envoys already sent to places of importance, is Asia all Hillary has left to her? Answer: adabadabadaba…Oh no, Asia is of utmost importance.

Go Chris!

He asked if the 0 admin had made errors in appointing all those folks with issues. The answer was “Well they’re not really mistakes, because the problems were uncovered during the vetting process.

Here Chris missed it. He’s a centrist.

I would have asked “Does that mean that the adminstration knew they were all tax-cheats and appointed them anyway?

But, that’s just me.

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:21 am 46. Tony:

#23 Melissus – Mmm, not too worried about EVERYBODY getting nukes. In ancient Greece, Athens navy was the equivalent of nukes, and over the past few millennia, not everybody got navies.

Yo Buddy, I saw the King and His Court, playing at Mitchell Elementary School in Philly, on cement. He pitched from second base, I think he had three fielders, and they were girls!

I would like to ask our Democratic leaders, Kerry, Hillary, Biden, Reid, Schumer – just how things would be if their vote to withdraw from Iraq by April, 2008 had come to pass. Something like this:

Ms. Secretary of State, you voted for the authorization of military force in Iraq, and then in 2007 you voted for the 16 month withdrawal of all American military forces in Iraq, to end in April, 2008. Since the Surge that won the war hadn’t started at the start of the withdrawal you voted for, and wasn’t finally successful until after the withdrawal you voted for, what would be going on in Iraq right now if your vote had carried the day? And, since your Democratic colleagues often say that fighting Al Qaeda brings them new recruits, what effect would it have had on Al Qaeda recruiting if we had withdrawn from the battlefield that bin Laden had declared the center of their world war against the West, as you voted to do?”

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:58 am 47. Wadeusaf:

Well Morton Doodslag,

In the Inn at Saudi Arabia, at least We know they can change the sheiks.
Whether to trade a heartless sheik,
For the heart of a sheet-less sheik,
Is determined(pardon tongue in cheek)

…between the sheiks.

Feb 15, 2009 - 12:02 pm 48. exhelodrvr:

9) “I should think that if King Abdullah’s confrontation of his religious coterie is really a housecleaning (and if indeed some ‘moderate’ Sunnis have been admitted to some power, it is), he’d better double the palace guard. ”

The most dangerous time is when dictatorships ease up a little. The current group in power thinks you have gone too far, the group benefitting from the changes think you haven’t gone far enough.

Feb 15, 2009 - 12:13 pm 49. Mark:

Arabs live in, as Bernard Lewis wrote, a ‘closed circle.’ The same can be said more generally of Islam, which looks to the Arabs for religious guidance. Cycles of loosening and constriction occur in Islam, as for example in the history of Andalusia. Maybe a major loosening could occur that resulted in a salutary breaking open of the circle, but don’t bet on it.

We can always hope that the poetic contagion of Rumi will overcome religiosity.

In the meantime, Valentine’s Day, via W.B. Yeats, if memory serves well:

“Wine comes in at the lips,
And love comes in at the eye.
That is all we know for truth
Before we grow old and die.
I raise the glass to my lips.
I look at you, and I sigh.”

Feb 15, 2009 - 12:46 pm 50. whiskey:

Muslims are incapable of love in the Western manner, because they are Muslims, specifically they hold to the tenets of Islam which are:

*Polygamy.
*Lack of free choice by women.
*Lack of freedom by women.
*Tribalism.
*A god who demands submission rather than love.

It is on this last point that Benedict wrote famously as a Cardinal that there was no theological agreement: Muslims hold God can demand they worship idols, suddenly and has no limits on himself, including rationality and consistency. Christians and Jews hold the opposite, that God must be consistent and Rational.

Yes, Muslims are human beings, but they are very different human beings. They do not and cannot by their very culture and belief system love in the way that Westerners love. When you have 57 children as Mohammed bin Laden did (Osama’s father), love for one’s children is a shadow of that in the West. When you have 22 wives as Mohammed bin Laden did, love for one’s wife is a shadow of that in the West.

Women are not free to choose whom they will marry, or marry at all, making relations between husband and wife more akin to that of master and slave, a metaphor that permeates Islamic life (God as the stern slave-owner, Muslims as his slaves). Children are not a precious gift from God given to each couple (think Sarah and Isaac), but rather belong solely to God for Jihad.

Any system oriented on polygamy, tribalism, and the like cannot offer love as we understand it, which is quite recent, and a solely Western development.

Western notions of love are quite revolutionary, offering each man a chance at one woman, who will love him, and each woman the true love and devotion of a single man. It has it’s weaknesses as noted, and is failing in much of the West. But in Asia, in parts of Latin America, it has made great headway due to the advantages it offers most people (as opposed to the other system of polygamy in any form that benefits the Big Man and a few favored wives).

Monogamy and the nuclear family are the exception. They are a recent (Western Europe, around AD 1000 or so) invention, as any historian and sociologist will tell you. Most hunter-gatherer and agricultural and pastoral societies practice some form of polygamy. Stronger in the Agricultural/pastoral societies, weaker in the hunter-gatherers.

Muslims cannot love as Westerners do unless they cease being Muslims (a point Ayaan Hirsi Ali makes). They must reject absolute obediance, to God and his lieutenants on Earth, tribalism, and polygamy. Rejecting any of those makes them no longer Muslim, as Islam demands adherence to ALL precepts, not a buffet from which one can pick and choose.

I’ll go further: the success of the West 1000 AD -1965 was based on the foundations of Romantic Love and the Nuclear family, which spread resources wide and deep throughout society, making the West technologically superior and resource superior. Collapse of same under extreme individualism, consumerism, and women’s unbounded pursuit of “weak/soft” polygamy and the Big Man have allowed the “hard” polygamy of Islam, along with the AK-47 and nuclear weapons, to threaten the West credibly.

Lesson: all people are not the same, how they form families and relate to each other in the family creates their society, and the chances for peace or war with other societies.

This is a hard lesson for utopian Liberals like Dave to learn, yet it is fact.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:18 pm 51. fred:

I’m with whiskey on some of his observations, all the while understanding Dave @14’s rebuttal. Culture is a very, very powerful and defining feature of human life. If you train children to be a certain way and think a certain way, it does tend to warp the contours of the emotional life. If Islam reduces women to chattel – and it most certainly does – then they think of themselves as chattel and the men treat them as chattel. They become nothing more than closely guarded sex objects.

I like his analogy of The Great White Shark being forced to be a cuddly toy. Islam does not understand the Christian concept of love or The Golden Rule. Frequently, the defenders of Islam are people who are least theologically and scripturally literate. Why? Because they cannot grasp the incredible contrast between the expansive humanity opened up to us in the Gospels and the vicious, mean, and small idea of the human being described in Qur’an, Sunnah, and Sira.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:29 pm 52. Doug:

Sad that we’re partway there ourselves, with our Pop-Culture Porn, “Sex Ed” and Parental Abdication.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:38 pm 53. Doug:

A Chamberlain Moment
Geert Wilders is deported from England for daring to tell the truth about radical Islam.
More>

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:39 pm 54. blert:

Is it Peak Oil or Peak Islam…?

The cultural inflection point seems to be Ras Tanura… 1968…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/03/saudiarabia.oil

BTW Ras Tanura seems maxxed out as an export terminal: not enough room and the Ultra Large Crude Carriers have too much draft for the Gulf.

The typical American well gets a life extension via water flood. But it has to be pretty much fresh water: salt screws up the bearing layer.

Aramco does not have access to cheap fresh water, and never will. So her production curves are unlikely to track with conventional experience.

Don’t be shocked to find out that Iraq completely displaces KSA within one generation as the world’s swing producer.

Iran at least can drain the Shat to flood her fields. But that is an expensive proposition and so Iran is destined to have profit margins as impaired as Venezuela.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:45 pm 55. Doug:

Islamic Terror and Sexual Mutilation

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:49 pm 56. Doug:

Teresa Heinz Kerry’s Radical Giving
jow Teresa funded the 2004 Democratic National Convention, anti-American radicals, and pro-pedophile gay film festivals.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:52 pm 57. twobyfour:

@ 43. Morton Doodslag

Good points. But is is like preaching to converted. I consider myself a hard-line anti-islamist.

The thing is, the KSA change is not just a gesture, or rather that is not much a part of the picture. There is no outside pressure that would force Abdullah to do this.

Yes, it is a drop in a bucket, and whether it is significant drop or not has yet to be seen.

But that does not mean it should be dismissed. As the enemy watches our every move, we need to do the same, and dissect it with a clinical approach.

Feb 15, 2009 - 1:54 pm 58. programmer:

Whiskey says:

Western notions of love are quite revolutionary, offering each man a chance at one woman, who will love him, and each woman the true love and devotion of a single man.

programmer says:

Whiskey, I don’t always agree with your view of the world, BUT damn, you express it well. Having just read your post #50 after having watched the trailer for God of War III, I will make this offer for today and today only. If you want to go to war with someone, let’s do it. I ain’t as mobile as I used to be, but I’ll dig a hole, bag in my 700 Rem 280 with hand loaded 160 grain boattails, Leupold scope and keep the Orcs off your back until I run out of ammo or you run of Orcs. Of course, tomorrow I will be back on my meds and all about tending my garden, but today, bring on Ragnarök!!

Western romanticism and love is damned well worth fighting for. Maybe that is how we will win. The enemy (both foreign and domestic) choose to die for their god, we choose to live and die if we must to protect our loved ones. And our God walks beside us, through the darkness, casting light before our feet, bracing us against the tumult and storm. But for Him to help us win, we must choose to fight. Fight and destroy the Enemy, not from hate and anger, but for the love of family, home, and the good earth upon which we stand.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:00 pm 59. marymcl:

whiskey @50 – Agree with everything up to the conflation of romantic love with the nuclear family. Not that one has nothing to do with the other, but ‘romance’ covers a lot of ground. Denis DeRougemont wrote about this in “Love in the Western World”, using the Tristan and Isolde myth as a starting point. It’s been a few years but IIRC his idea was that romantic love is inextricably bound up with passion (which means ’suffering’, lest we forget) and thus, despite the best intentions of all concerned, works at cross-purposes to marriage.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:11 pm 60. programmer:

you run of Orcs = you run out of Orcs

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:12 pm 61. marymcl:

BTW – I posted this link as a valentine of sorts to the Belmont Club at the far, far end of another thread, and as this seems to be the official St.Valentine’s Day thread here it is again, with regards to all

http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/mythopoeia.html

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:21 pm 62. steveaz:

Morton @43,
I admit to engaging in some wishful thinking in my comment above. I’ll always err on the side of rewarding any liberalization in the Kingdom with the obligatory, positive comment or two.

It’s something about being seen rewarding good behavior.

That said, as I cut my sandwich at lunch today, I tripped over the point that you make so well: that the Kingdom’s shifts appear insincere, as usual. The reprimands and personnel changes seem to be targeted to appeal only superficially to Western progressive iconography (in this case, feminism) without Riyadh committing to real democratic governance, freedom of religion and cross-checked, representative government.

The more I mulled it over, it’s probably just more window-dressing.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:43 pm 63. steveaz:

blert @54
“Don’t be shocked to find out that Iraq completely displaces KSA within one generation as the world’s swing producer.”

Heh! Oil’s gonna be king for a long, long time to come. That’s just the way of it, folks, doubly so if we find ourselves in a fighting war anytime soon.

Iraq always mattered, it’s just that the Democrats wanted to do it – something about getting the credit for it while helping “Friends of Oil-For-Food,” I guess.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:57 pm 64. NahnCee:

Nevertheless – ABdullah did something harsh to the clerics and he did it in public. That is huge.

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:58 pm 65. peterike:

This is off the Islam topic, but it’s on the Valentine’s Day topic. And I just KNOW the folks hereabouts will find this amusing/appalling.

It’s a great read on how Great Leader spent his Valentines with a little psychoanalysis of Her Fangness (aka Michelle) thrown in for good measure.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/obama_delays_signing_urgent_st.html

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:13 pm 66. Peter Boston:

Mark #49
Cycles of loosening and constriction occur in Islam, as for example in the history of Andalusia.

Small point but it’s the time to correct all historical revision about Islam and it’s so called Golden Age. There were short periods following the Mohammedan conquest of Spain when Jews and Christians were treated as well as second class citizens – if you consider paying confiscatory taxes and stepping aside and lowering your eyes to make room an acceptable as well as.

These moderate periods existed during the caliphate of specific individuals from one or two families only. I do no recall the family names but they originated from Morocco and not from the Arabian peninsula.

For most of the Mohammedan period Jews and Christians were treated like dog meat. The Golden Age prevaricators always fail to mention the 4,000 Jewish families that were ripped from their homes and slaughtered in the streets of Granada at a whim, or the similar massacres that occurred in Cordoba and many, many other Jewish and Christian settlements.

The occupation was several hundred years and it’s more complex than I describe but treating your slaves well from time to time is not Golden.

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:25 pm 67. steveH:

Buddy @ 42,

My father played a pickup touch football game with Eddie Feigner in the late ’40s at Walla Walla, WA, where my dad was finishing up a pre-med degree in chemistry.

Just him and Eddie against five other guys. My dad, a little guy, would hike the ball and run for all he was worth, and put his hands up when he was in the clear.

The defenders would all aim to pile on Eddie, but before they could reach him, he’d already fired off the ball straight in my dad’s hands. And about the sum total of his playing the game.

Fun for a lazy afternoon.

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:43 pm 68. Karen Yvonne:

Dave @38: However, to say that “no Muslim” is capable of love is to put the mouth in motion without putting the brain in gear.

Dave, I said no such thing. Where did you get that? I’m puzzled. With all due respect, I don’t think that I’m the one who’s putting the mouth in motion et cetera et cetera.

What I said @22 was: Individual Muslims have the same capacities as anybody else… but Islam actively works against any realization of their God-given rights, as we understand them.

Our natural God-given rights as, for example, set forth in our founding documents – Dave, can you explain to me how Islam might, in any way, be able to inspire anything even close to that?

Judging from some of the responses here, I fear even some at BC are eager to be appeased.

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:52 pm 69. Lifeofthemind:

OT but heartwarming I offer a little slice of a CSM sharing the love in Iraq.

Feb 15, 2009 - 4:24 pm 70. Karen Yvonne:

I’m still waiting to hear how “Muslims have the same capacities as anybody else” can morph into “no Muslim is capable of love.” I’d like to hear that explanation.

Feb 15, 2009 - 4:47 pm 71. twobyfour:

@70. Karen Yvonne

What on urdth? It can morph? How so?
Are you sure you are not using a tad wide brush?

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:10 pm 72. twobyfour:

OK, I see what you mean, Karen.

Maybe it was something contextual?
I don’t know. You explained what you’ve meant and then rhetorically ask whether Islam is capable of something similar to founding documents, then all of the sudden you switch almost into calling people appeasers.

Odd approach, to say the least.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:28 pm 73. Karen Yvonne:

I dunno, twobyfour, I guess I just don’t like being misquoted.

The basic issue as I see it from the title of this thread – Stop in the Name of Love – might love reform Islam?

Maybe it can. On the other hand, all these family member beheaders – in Ledger’s link to the report of the moderate Muslim chopping off his wife’s head, remember she was divorcing him – these family member beheaders may, for we know, love their victims (after a fashion anyway) but in the Islamic scheme of things “honor” trumps love by leaps and bounds, by miles and miles.

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:40 pm 74. Karen Yvonne:

for we know = for ALL we know

Feb 15, 2009 - 5:41 pm 75. Alexis:

Medieval ideas of courtly love actually came from Islamic culture and Arab poetry. However, such love poetry typically expressed the passions of adultery. The main innovation of western canon law and religious culture from the late Middle Ages was the idea that romantic love was appropriate for marriage, as opposed to the earlier ideal of unconsummated courtly (read: adulterous) love in the context of arranged marriages.

Feb 15, 2009 - 6:22 pm 76. ledger:

“The shake-up…included the appointment of a female deputy minister, the highest government position a Saudi woman has attained.”–AP

Call me skeptical if you will. But, the AP has been less than truthful in the past. Further, one would think males in Saudi Arabia don’t change their strips over night.

I would ask:

1)Is this women “deputy minister” a figure head?

2)How much actual power does she have?

3)Is she married and to whom?

4)Does she drive a car?

5)Is this story a load of taqiyya?

Until a reliable source provides those answers I am very doubtful of any major shift in human rights in SA.

Feb 15, 2009 - 6:50 pm 77. Doug:

NO HEAD, NO HEADLINES

Feb 15, 2009 - 7:24 pm 78. Peter Boston:

Medieval ideas of courtly love actually came from Islamic culture and Arab poetry.

Read some Greek and Roman history. There’s plenty of it. Where do you think the word Erotic originates from?

Feb 15, 2009 - 7:28 pm 79. Leo Linbeck III:

Abdullah the new king of Saud
Thought his mullahs were hopelessly flawed

So his whip he did crack
Ere he gave them the sack

And replaced one old goat with a broad

——

Is Abdullah for real or a fake?
Did he choose the Wahhabis to break?

Only he knows for sure
(He’s a savvy old moor)

But until confirmed, please stay awake

——

L3

Feb 15, 2009 - 7:34 pm 80. Doug:

Ms Valentine Sweetheart 02-14

Feb 15, 2009 - 7:52 pm 81. Karen Yvonne:

twobyfour @72: you switch almost into calling people appeasers.

I’d never call people names. But if I inadvertently did in this case, considering the context @68, they’d be appeasEES, not appeasERS.

This hope of the possibility of some meaningful change in the Muslim world is sort of like the post-election hope that Obama would govern as a centrist.

Feb 15, 2009 - 8:20 pm 82. Walt:

Leo Linbeck III @79

Damn good! Keep it up and I’ll have to hang up my word processor.

Cheers, Walt

Feb 15, 2009 - 8:29 pm 83. Wadeusaf:

Okay, this is from (Cough) the guardian, but only a few hours cold,

“The reshuffle was broadly welcomed in the Saudi press, with the Saudi Gazette calling it a “boost for reform” and al-Hayat describing the changes as “bold reform”.

“Saudi schools have long been criticised as breeding grounds for extremism, and the monarchy’s western allies are likely to claim the reshuffle as a sign that the kingdom has the capacity to reform itself.

“This is the true start of the promises of reform,” said Jamal Khashoggi, editor of al-Watan newspaper. “They bring not only new blood, but also new ideas.”

The story also contains a quote from the new womens ed deputy minister.

The NY Times, LA Times and Radio France have original copy as well as Mid East Youth dot Com. The significance is beginning to sink in as well as editors looking for copy to bury the fact that the president won’t sign the bill until Tuesday, cause he had to go to Chicago. Must not a been that important huh?

Feb 15, 2009 - 8:41 pm 84. twobyfour:

Karen, I don’t make that distinction. There is a concept of appeasement and one side always ends up as suckers. Ex.: Chamberlain as appeaser and British public as second hand appeasees. Suckers, both of the lot.

This hope of the possibility of some meaningful change in the Muslim world is sort of like the post-election hope that Obama would govern as a centrist.

Of course. But with a little help, mountains can be moved. It is just a question where that help should be applied most efficiently. I’d suggest a deicide. Must be entirely natural (wink).

Feb 15, 2009 - 8:46 pm 85. Doug:

He’s surrounded himself with centrists, Karen.
Clinton, Solis, Samantha Power…

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:04 pm 86. Dave:

Utopian liberal? Moi? As a founding member
of RSR (Rednecks for Social Responsibility—-
thePALEOneoconconspiracydotcom) I find said attempted pejorative a source of mirth.

I once again dutifully recommend the Raymond Ibrahim two-parter on deceit. If it has vanished from pajamas media, I reckon the Hanson site will carry it.

IMLTHO, that bit about abrogation does point the way towards towards the sort of Divine Revelation needed in Islamic countries. In
both Arab and Persian cultures there are some flickers of indications that such is at least starting. Among non-mideastern Muslims, indicators would appear to be stronger.

I’d say that we got us a fighting chance.

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:13 pm 87. ledger:

Wadeusaf: “…this is from (Cough) the guardian, but only a few hours cold…”

It’s a start. But, Al Guardian is, as you say (Cough), not well regarded.

I would as my original five questions – but let’s cut it down to one:

Does she drive a car?

If the answer is No than I think the measures are superficial at best and there is no real human rights reform in SA.

Let’s face it. Money controls the MSM. The Muslims have plenty of oil money. They can buy MSM reporters (or MFM reporters).

To Muzzammil Hassan’s case. It should be premeditated murder or Murder 1. From what little we have heard he planned it and carried it out.

Now, from here out the MSM they will be fed bread crumbs from Hassan’s lawyers. The MSM will eat them up without a probing the ugly side. Nothing derogatory will be said against Islam. In fact, Hassan may have been lawyered-up before he sawed-off his wife’s head.

This is a brutal murder, it is in the USA, involving a Pakistani (or a Muslim) and it deserves more coverage (assuming some reporter has the guts to publicize it).

Feb 15, 2009 - 9:51 pm 88. Alexis:

Peter Boston:

As a rule, did Roman and Greek love poetry refer to adulterous love? Arab love poetry emphasized the illicit nature of the emotion.

My point is that love poetry does historically exist within Islamic society; it just doesn’t correspond to the morality of later medieval (and Puritan) Christianity.

Feb 15, 2009 - 10:23 pm 89. Karen Yvonne:

twoby, great. I could go along with a deicide, PBUH.

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:02 pm 90. NahnCee:

Actually, it’s my understanding that the only Saudi’s who drive themelves are the young men in the pursuit of racing and picking up stray females. Everyone else hires small brown people from other countries to be their drivers. So perhaps the question should be, “Does she drive a car when she gets to leave the country and go someplace else?”

Feb 15, 2009 - 11:51 pm 91. buddy larsen:

Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss’d
Of the Two Worlds so learnedly, are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter’d, and their mouths are stopt with Dust.

Oh, come with old Khayyam, and leave the Wise
To talk; one thing is certain, that Life flies;
One thing is certain, and the Rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out of the same Door as I went.

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour’d it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap’d -
“I came like Water, and like Wind I go.”

Into this Universe, and why not knowing,
Nor whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing:
And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not whither, willy-nilly blowing.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

And that inverted Bowl we call The Sky,
Whereunder crawling coop’t we live and die,
Lift not thy hands to It for help – for It
Rolls impotently on as Thou or I.

–Omar Kayyam, 11th century Seljuk Shiite mathematician & poet

Feb 16, 2009 - 12:04 am 92. Doug:

Taliban and Homosexuality

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — Now that Taliban rule is over in Mullah Omar’s former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions, kites and razors which have begun to emerge.

Visible again, too, are men with their ashna, or beloveds: young boys they have groomed for sex.

Kandahar’s Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for na�ve young boys. Before the Taliban arrived in 1994, the streets were filled with teenagers and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationships.

Kandahar is called the homosexual capital of south Asia. Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy � locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior � that the rape of young boys by warlords was one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising the Taliban.

Fox News 2002

Feb 16, 2009 - 12:22 am 93. CRT:

#2 Walt,

Hope you don’t mind being sort of a stand-in ideal Dad for a few daughters who have lost their own fathers. Thanks for writing.

Feb 16, 2009 - 12:54 am 94. twobyfour:

An interesting letter posted to an Israeli government website.

Shalom From Turkey
Dear Sir or madam,
I am a 31 years old Turkish man
I do not want to take a risk or maybe advance my self by not showing my identity. So i am not posting via email. I just want to express my feelings.

All my life, there was always some hate to Israel in me. But i dont know why? In my country, it was always like a duty that everyone should hate Israel and their religion without any reason

Everyone hates israel here, but no one knows why. As usual, i grow up with this meaningless hate in me.

But i think, Turkey is not the only country like this. Most of non israilian people talks dirty against Israel. Its very common in all around the world.

But this is your fault. Because, when i hear the word “israel” always that scene comes to my mind. The scene that israel soldiers killed the son and his father on the wall.

And this year, god bless youtube (its banned in turkey) i see that it is a fake video. But i think only one in a million in Turkey knows this.

This is your goverments fault. You have to show the truth to the other people.

From my childhood, everynight i see an israel soldier beats a palestanian in news. Or shoots civilians etc etc. I realise the truths lately. But im sure millions of Turkey still dont realize

When the big earth quake disease happened in Turkey, i remember that israel helped alot to us. People did not talk dirty that time. That gave me the wonder. Could an israil people have a good heart??

Last summer, i met a group of Israel people in Turkey. We chatted and spend time alot. And i had my questions about israel answered. And i got shocked that israel people are as human as we are.

I met a man from Greece. That country is full of orthadoks cristians. And that guy, in a secret and “with a little shame in himself” weared your sion star. And i understand, he belives your religion in a secret.

He was a great friend and his philosophy of life was very similiar to me. So i ask my self “if your religion could not be that much disgusting that all the people talks like”.

People can born and change their religion to your religion. So that religion must have something good in it.

For all those and much much things make me to ask my self “why and where did i get this hate to israel from”. Now i know the answer, thats not because israel people are bad. Thats because you dont advertise your self good.

In Turkey no one knows and cares about the beggining of the war in Gazze. Everyone protests Israel, but when i ask, “do you know how this war starts”..

None says “yes”.

None cares. Its always free and pleasure to protest Israel in Turkey and in all over the world.

No one knows that Palestane rockets cuts the peace.

All the media is against Israel. Its usual, its free.

None of the media talks about civilians in Israel side.

Everyone is shouting against israel and no one talks about the Palestanian rockets

Everyday im getting “anti israel” emails. Even mobile phone sms’es.

People came for the big meeting from all around Turkey to protest Israel.

Big economical crisis is happening here. People are loosing their job everyday. But they dont protest the economy.
People gave money to help Palestin. Even the children In PRIMARY SCHOOOLS.

Now please tell me. Are Israel or Palestine is winning the war?? You only killed 1200 terrorists. And now millions are against you.1200 people are not called terrorists in Turkey. They call 1200 Civilians.

That war was a sly plan of hamas. Now you make 1200 hamas soldiers as a ” islamic heroes”. You are making Tayyip Erdogan the biggest muslim cihad leader. You are loosing. Terrorism is wining.

I am muslim. But i am not stupid. I got my own brain. Even all the media and all the Turkey says one thing, i will belive my own feelings.

I watched the Davos conversations. Mr Peres was amazingly sattisfied the people about the truths. He talked reasonable. No one could disagree to his words. So our primister “with his 47% votes with his pocket” ruined everything.

He is uneducated and rude man. If was just enough educated to be a prime minister he would speak any other language than Turkish. I am sorry to have that kind of prime minister to my country. What a militant politician. Uneducated slums boy.

So please, i beg you, please do very very much of advertising your people and your religion. And make sure any more people instead of me here in Turkey would please understand why you are fighting for.

Tell about the terrorist attacks in your country. Tell about the rockets

And please, know that, all the media and almost all the people are fooled and “armed” against your country, there are people like me , that have their own brain and own heart with you

Even we dont share our religion, i belive that we pray for the same rights to same god.

I love you my Israil brother. Please show all the world the truths. You can not win this war, only with the guns. Please advertise and propoganda about the truths.

Please, make Mr Peres read this. Not all the Turkey are blind! All my best wishes and my muslim prayers for all my Israel brothers

Allaha emanet olun ( May god be with you)

Feb 16, 2009 - 1:32 am 95. ledger:

Good post 2×4. It’s clear that radical Islam is deep into brainwashing.

The western world should start a project like the Manhattan Project or the code-breaking project of WWII to counter the propaganda that is taught in Islamic schools and mosques.

Back tracking to my last post. I do want to make clear why I ask the question, “Does she drive a car?” The reason is obvious.

If a Muslim woman can drive a car without out a male escort she is less likely to be under surveillance. The same is also true of Muslim wives.

Further, if a Muslim female “deputy minister” can drive a car she is more likely to escape male violence and intimidation. The same is true for Muslim wives.

The question still remains: Can the female deputy minister drive a car?

Feb 16, 2009 - 2:44 am 96. Wadeusaf:

Ledger, while I think the question has some merit, you are setting the bar way high for a beginning. (It could kick start some economies however if they’d allow their females to own and operate. Perhaps that question should be asked as a goal or even as a ‘benchmark’ to borrow a phrase worn unwell. But as a measure of a start of change it is a pretty daunting measure by which to poo-poo everything.

C’mon Ledger, have a heart.

Feb 16, 2009 - 7:31 am 97. buddy larsen:

wade, i’ve become very critical of food. in fact, i poo-poo everything.

Feb 16, 2009 - 10:38 am 98. buddy larsen:

jeez –tough room –

Feb 16, 2009 - 1:02 pm 99. marymcl:

@65peterike

OK, just for laughs, sob-sister soap opera meets conspiracy theory –

The Obama’s little Valentine tryst reminds me of John Edwards telling the world he “never loved” whatshername. You just know his wife made him do it. Or Else. (whatever that might be.)

Likewise there’s not a doubt in my mind that Michele has been planning this little getaway for many, many moons. And down to the last detail. Reality threatens to intrude all the time – but He reassures Her, nothing will go wrong. (I love that line about “hearing the lamentations of his women” – Michele probably meant it when she told those kids “They let us out!”)

Anyway, back to MY fantasy world – Imagine the arguments, the compromises she’s forced to make. As the day itself draws near, the necessary PR is ready, everything’s budgeted and planned and all set to go but if the stimulus bill doesn’t pass in time, he’ll have to bring that damned Blackberry and she’s not having it!&^%#!! It’s The One Thing and He Promised.

I said last weekend there was something weird about the way the bill had to pass by the end of the week. Why this particular week? Why not Tuesday, let a few staffers get familiar with the index? People thought I was just distracting the conversation away from the real issues. Doesn’t look like it now, huh?

This is the crisis Biden was trying to warn us about last fall. If we can figure out why the One is so afraid of crossing her, we’ll be well on the way to a Manchurian Candidate of our own.

BTW did you see this?

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/01/the-idiossey.html

Feb 16, 2009 - 1:47 pm 100. sprat:

you goofs supported Bush-brain’s inclusivist approach to the muslim enemy. you get what you wish, asswipes.

Feb 16, 2009 - 2:14 pm 101. buddy larsen:

Actually, sprat, most of the people who hang around this blog did not support Bush’s approach to the muslims at all, in any way. go look at the archives, hot shot.

Feb 16, 2009 - 3:13 pm 102. buddy larsen:

mary, pelosi had a 10 day trip thru europe –itinerary planned –she’s meeting with the pope (and probably marlon brando too but that’s just speculation). so, maybe THAT was the rush –pivot human history in time to catch the plane.

Feb 16, 2009 - 3:17 pm 103. twobyfour:

Sigh, some canning is in order.

BTW, Czech spratek (-ek: masculine suffix) translates to a tiresome brat.

Feb 16, 2009 - 3:25 pm 104. marymcl:

buddy – funny you should mention Pelosi, now that Mr. Heiress is heading overseas on our behalf, I’ve been wondering who her hosts and minders were on that little junket to Damascus.

Feb 16, 2009 - 3:45 pm 105. buddy larsen:

mary, me too, wondering. but at least with the both of them over there, the hair care industry in the USA can take a short break and get some much needed rest.

Feb 16, 2009 - 3:58 pm 106. steveaz:

I’ll give Obama one more chance to prove me wrong.

Tomorrow, he could return from his romp with Michelle restored and all aglow with confidence and toss a big bomb into American politics.

Obama could return on Tuesday and confound every expectation we’ve seen written by VETO’ing the Spendulus bill with a note attached recommending it be sent back to Congress to enlist more Republican support.

Imagine it, guys: in one felled swoop he would impress most of BC’s commentariat with his combative inclusiveness, and restore tens of millions of productive Americans’ faith in his ability to carry out the duties of his office.

We live in an age of surprises, and Obama wants to be a Star. By tossing Pelosi some cooked crow tomorrow, he could actually become one.

Feb 16, 2009 - 4:36 pm 107. buddy larsen:

It’s a beautiful thought, steveaz, for sure. it would save the world, is what it would it would do.

Feb 16, 2009 - 5:41 pm 108. twobyfour:

@ 106. steveaz

Well, be my guest. If he were not a pompous sociopathic narcissist and a puppet, I’d give it some chance too. He is constricted, though, by the interests that facilitated his position and more so by his perception bubble that reflects his distorted worldview. Chances on the scale 1 to 10… 0.

Feb 16, 2009 - 9:03 pm 109. peterike:

I love the veto scenario! Though the only way I can see it happening is he vetoes the bill and says “it’s not enough money. Add another few hundred billion and then I’ll sign.”

Feb 16, 2009 - 9:58 pm 110. Doug:

Werewolves Of London

Feb 17, 2009 - 7:40 am 111. Doug:

Sorry, wrong thread!

Feb 17, 2009 - 7:41 am 112. marymcl:

It must be contagious – I just posted this somewhere I didn’t mean to!

Anyway, he’s gone campaigning

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_090217.htm

Obama Promoting Agenda In Key Battleground States

Media reports are casting President Obama’s trip to Denver (where he’ll sign the stimulus bill this morning) and Phoenix as an attempt to boost popular support for his economic agenda. Moreover, says the Los Angeles Times, the tour “reflects a decision by the president to escape the Beltway and touch base with the rest of the country at least once a week” and a recognition “that congressional Republicans were gaining traction in the debate.” The Politico says that “in turning their fire on the capital’s process-and-power-obsessed political class,” Obama’s aides are “actually indulging in a time-honored Beltway tradition.” Both Arizona and Colorado “are…key to Obama’s reelection strategy,” notes The Hill

Feb 17, 2009 – 8:01 am

Feb 17, 2009 - 8:10 am 113. Doug:

The One will say he read it,
leaving him to be truly
THE One
who has.

Feb 17, 2009 - 8:40 am

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