47 Comments

1. MG:

The SF Gate article’s author either has a very narrow sample of Republicans, OR is engaging in a heap ‘o projection.

As for the gap ending? Not likely.

Apr 9, 2009 - 12:30 am 2. vanderleun:

If the opposition to amnesty gets really serious it will start running ads against illegals taking American jobs on inner-city African American radio stations.

Apr 9, 2009 - 12:57 am 3. blert:

It will take some transcendent externality — like losing your job, career and buddy network as your news desk melts down — for such a Manichian self-exultation to implode.

As long as such a mentality gets steeped in the j-room groupthink there can be no emersion from its totality.

It is notable that uber-libs ALWAYS assume that conservatives are heartless, retro-moral, ditto-heads with all the guilt for the nature of man. After all, uber-libs are the only ones actively seeking a reformed, perfected man and society.

Imbued such a self-congratulating conceit it is impossible to cast off the pious narcissism: it generates such a recurrent flood of endorphins — it really is an addictive mechanism for facing the world.

To show how addictive a group-think passion can be: there were members of the Fuhrer Begleit Brigade who still believed in total victory as late as May 4, 1945 — even though the ‘valorous’ death of Hitler was on official broadcast! Having been coddled throughout the war with the best men and most favorable engagements ( Hitler was this unit’s effective Colonel — they were his own boys — and staffed his HQ ) this formation lived an alternate military reality. That shows just how extreme reality denial can stretch.

The journalist-brigades are as imbued as any Leftist in any regime at anytime anywhere.

They will leave their bubble sobbing and screaming only after Sauron blinks.

Apr 9, 2009 - 1:00 am 4. cellec:

The debate over immigration in the U.S. is unusual in that it’s less a debate between Republicans and Democrats than a debate between the general populace and the political class.
To be sure, Liberals are marginally less concerned about the border then conservatives, but the broad and largely bi-partisan consensus amongst the populace seems to be: Establish real control over the border and get serious about enforcing the existing laws before creating new “paths to citizenship”.
The political class on the other hand seems unanimously in favor of some form of amnesty, with even the conservative Wall Street Journal giving a thumbs up to George Bushes failed “Shamnesty” bill of a year or two ago.

Apr 9, 2009 - 1:28 am 5. whiskey:

The SF Gate writer is the typical status mongering SWPL. However, the breakdowns are with one exception, classically American in that they have been a pattern of American life since the Jamestown settlement.

Elites who have land and power want land to remain expensive, labor cheap, and their own political, social, moral, economic, and cultural position unchallenged. By any serious competitors, which generally means working/middle class Whites.

GENERALLY allied with the elites have been Indians, Mexicans, and at times, Blacks.

Populist Labor unions in the West for example sought to exclude both Chinese and Blacks from union work to prevent union and wage busting, what today we see with Affirmative Action, H1-B Visas, ethnic nepotism, and Illegal Immigration.

Obama is both SWPL culturally, and a man who drank deep of anti-White hatred and excuse making. The collapse of Black culture and creativity caused by “White Racism” or a “White Man’s Greed Causes a World in Need” to quote his pastor.

Thus his aim is to erase and subdue his natural enemies: Working and Middle Class White guys. No less than Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy “What’s the point of being rich if ordinary people have nice things too” Obama hates Joe the Plumber and men like him. Sarah Palin too, both of whom have drawn his and those around him ire. It’s Tina Fey or Eminem or what have you.

Blacks, Hispanics, and macho-posturing White Teens (though not so much any more, emo is now in) listen to Rap. White male teens are now more “emo” and listening to say, the Killers. White working men, listen to Country Music.

There is no cultural cross-over. Dividing lines are growing culturally because the divisions socially, economically, and politically are growing.

The kicker is the male-female divide. The Gallup poll has a 16 point spread between men and women on gun control and gun bans. Women favor both by that much over men. Single Women voted 70-29 for Obama over McCain. About 82% of the job losses since September have been male.

Women have not suffered much from layoffs, and since for the first time in US history most US women are single, male unemployment is a matter of utter unconcern to women.

Obama’s secret weapon is Women. By a large margin, women approve of his job performance more than men. Women find his bowing and scraping to the King of Saudi Arabia perfectly acceptable, while men despise it as weakness and kow-towing in the President.

Women oppose any military action wrt Iran’s nukes, while men are in favor of it. Women opposed military action in response to 9/11, and by a large margin oppose any military response if the US were to be nuked, men hold the opposite views by large margins.

Obama is likely to get his Amnesty, since women will lose nothing by it, be able to stick it to male competitors, and indulge in feel-good moralizing. Women favor Amnesty over men by large margins.

Women are Obama’s secret weapon. As long as he remains “Rockstar in Chief” no matter what he does, women will support him to the bitter end.

The ONLY thing that could impact that is widespread layoffs for women, but Affirmative Action and Obama’s cultural allies preferring women in employment make that extremely unlikely.

Of course, socially you have a large pool of permanently unemployed and unemployable (wrong skin color) White guys who previously held jobs, and are now discriminated against minorities in their own country, suddenly, with Amnesty a done deal and majority non-White in a few years. But hey, what could POSSIBLY go wrong with that? I ask you. /sarcasm.

Apr 9, 2009 - 1:40 am 6. wretchard:

There are any number of apocalyptic scenarios one can reasonably imagine. It’s not hard to do that. But it isn’t too much, is it, to want to find the way forward that doesn’t involve some kind of Cold Civil War or people running amuck in the streets. Rupert Brooke, before he went off and died from a mosquito bite was positively thrilled at the prospect of a quickening spot of Armageddon. He wrote:

Now, God be thanked Who has matched us with His hour,
And caught our youth, and wakened us from sleeping,
With hand made sure, clear eye, and sharpened power,
To turn, as swimmers into cleanness leaping,
Glad from a world grown old and cold and weary,
Leave the sick hearts that honour could not move,
And half-men, and their dirty songs and dreary,
And all the little emptiness of love!

From “swimmers into cleannest leaping” to septicemia by mosquito bite. Bad luck. People are ornery. It’s a wonder they can live together for any period of time.

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:34 am 7. JenLArt:

Obama is making another bad mistake: given the less than enthusiastic reaction to his proposed budget, even from his own party, he is insane to try and tackle immigration now or perhaps ever!
He’s counting on the fact that everyone who voted for him and the Democrat Party in general, including their voters, will stand with him to pass this bill and they won’t.
I don’t think that amnesty for illegals is a straight Dems/Pro-Reps/Con issue.
There are quite a few Democrats and Independents that won’t care for an immigration bill like he envisions one bit, especially with so many citizens losing their jobs right now when this bill would make illegal workers “legal.”
Hide and watch.
0bama seems to be trying to commit political suicide and doing so early in his 1st (and dare we say only?) term.

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:47 am 8. Rob:

But, who is going to pay the taxes needed to run this bloated system? We know the rich, especially liberals, have creative ways to avoid paying and don’t feel much of an obligation to do so, just look at Obama’s cabinet. The middle class is getting smaller and smaller, especially as being rich in this country is now being redefined down to around $100K/yr., and they’re going to be strangled by higher rates. And the poor don’t have to pay income taxes. At a certain point, there’s not much left.

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:48 am 9. Charles:

California’s financial problems are the result of hispanics looting the state (by way of remittances/too many state employees/state services to illegals) and wealthy americans running away and taking their money with them.

Obama’s amnesty policy would ensure that California’s model gets mapped over onto the rest of the USA.

California right now is not deemed to be a good model for success.

Therefor Obama’s amnesty policy bodes ill for the USA.

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:05 am 10. Lifeofthemind:

whiskey,
You have a point about the alliance of elites and outsiders against the working class. The Roman Emperors from Augustus on employed the Equestrian class against the Senatorial class and championed the cause of the Plebeians. Caesar was a leader of the Populares. Successful English Kings allied with the Commons against the Lords.

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:11 am 11. Habu:

6. wretchard:

But it isn’t too much, is it, to want to find the way forward that doesn’t involve some kind of Cold Civil War or people running amuck in the streets

Unfortunately the answer is no The history of mankind is the history of war ,not peace. Peace is an interstitial anomaly. There is war somewhere on Earth all the time. Those who are prepared the best for it enjoy the longest interstitial space. Those who are weak invite attack,defeat, and death,or enslavement.

This is engraved in the history of mankind so to waste time working on a way forward is, yes, a waste of time. Prepare for war, always.

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:30 am 12. Lifeofthemind:

Both George Bush and John McCain expended enormous political capital seeking to build an alliance with hispanics. Certainly in McCain’s case that effort was wasted and he has expressed some felling of bitterness. It will demand enormous discipline, not their salient feature recently, for the Republicans to assert that they are both for immigration and for the rule of law. The hypocrisy that has allowed loopholes to be created, or enforcement to be curtailed, for commercial interests must be stopped. At the same time real resources must be devoted to doing the level of investigation needed to verify an applicants eligibility for a visa. Right now our system is so broken that it is often irrational for a legitimate applicant to apply within the system as compared to a person who would in the normal course of business be rejected but who stands a better chance of gaining permanent residence by entering illegally and then establishing a presence such as a family.

Anyone who Enters Without Inspection (EWI) should be banned from ever gaining citizenship. No child of an EWI should be granted citizenship. The only exception to that should be if that child was conceived by an American mother as a result of an act of nonconsensual sex, that is to say a rape, that has been reported and certified in a legal proceeding. Customs and Border Protection Officers have less than 30 seconds to evaluate an applicant who does report for inspection at an entry port. Fraud such as providing false information at that point should invalidate the entry and subject the alien to immediate removal and a permanent bar on reentry.

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:32 am 13. Lifeofthemind:

Feeling, feeling, cue music.

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:34 am 14. hdgreene:

“For all of his hopes about bipartisanship, Barack Obama has the most polarized early job approval ratings of any president in the past four decades.”

I view the United States as close to being a one party state, and that Party is the DC Power Party. They seek to centralize more power, not just in Washington DC but in the hands of a Credentialed Aristocracy. This Aristocracy is not yet hereditary, but it is headed that way. You notice the groups that are the biggest boosters of “Affirmative Action” don’t mind nepotism (think Hollywood and Politics). Those who rant the most about “conflicts of interest” don’t think the concept applies to them and their close family members. Andrea Mitchel married to the Fed Chairman? What could be wrong with that? And what is wrong with a Senator bequeathing his seat to his daughter or his son? Even affirmative action, in practice, favored the daughters of this emerging order over the sons of sharecroppers.

When President Obama speaks of bipartisanship, he speaks of uniting this Aristocratic group into a permanent governing class. Of course Republicans cannot totally go along because they represent the “pockets of resistance.” These are folks who see themselves firmly on the other side of the divide and whose children will be out of favor in the credential hunt. They would not object to an aristocracy of merit and accomplishment — which is attacked as greed and selfishness by the Credentialed, since this would give upper middle class kids a leg up (especially if the parents instill drive and ambition in their kids). Interestingly, they would have a leg up on the poor and working class kids but be a threat to the Patrician class, who would like to flow into power the way the river flows to the sea.

As long as this Aristocracy could acquire more power it could grow and welcome new members (in fact, offering membership was a tool for acquiring power). But now they are reaching their “limits to growth” and they will need to cement their leadership in place and pull up the bridge behind them. A situation of low growth and controlled growth will help them — so society itself much reach its “limits to growth.”

In the latest economic crisis we find the relationships among the various actors obscured and the causes portrayed as beyond our understanding. More and more we will find that the actors in the various dramas are in some sense related. And being a part of the same Aristocratic Class will not be a reason for recusal. Why be a member of a select class and give up the advantages?

In this Credentialed State, a lot of power accrues to the gate keepers of entry into the Aristocratic class — those who will grant “The Patents of Nobility.” Demanding that the novice display Fidelity to the emerging order by signing on to some rather bizarre ideas makes a lot of sense: it shows they are willing to suppress their individuality in the service of the new class (early in the process this looks like a “counter culture” of free thinkers and then emerges as the autocratic PC of the narrow minded). Of course, you are expected to do more than mouth these ideas, you are expected to believe them.

What infuriates liberals (read progressives) are arguments that make these ideas look as nonsensical as they are. Hence the new cliche, “Shut up, they explained.”

Apr 9, 2009 - 5:52 am 15. Alexis:

President Obama’s seeming lack of caution concerning immigration is strongly suggestive of a desire to massively polarize the American electorate while seeming to float above the fray. The question is whether he can ram it through.

This issue needs to be one about obeying the law as opposed to legalizing illegal behavior merely because it is so pervasive. Immigration advocates talk about “twelve million people already here”. They don’t talk about twenty-four million people using marijuana on a regular basis. If the pervasiveness of an illegal behavior were any recommendation for its legalization, one wonders why the Obama administration wouldn’t also promote “amnesty” for those who would buy or sell marijuana, cocaine, or sex.

It looks as though the Obama administration would like to smear all opponents of amnesty as George Wallace supporters, “cherry picking” the opposition to ensure that no legitimate voice of dissent ever gets heard above the rants of Roger Taney. It sadly looks as though excellent arguments against amnesty for illegal immigrants may very well get drowned out by those who would advocate in favor of the vicious false logic of the Dred Scott decision.

Apr 9, 2009 - 6:32 am 16. Mark:

cellec writes: “The debate over immigration in the U.S. is unusual in that it’s less a debate between Republicans and Democrats than a debate between the general populace and the political class.”

A case in point is the unions, which should be protecting their (American) members but actually will benefit, politically, from organizing a new wave of jobless immigrants.

Most Americans, like Lifeofthemind above, would like to see sensible, liberalized, lawful immigration legislation, especially favoring hemispheric neighbors (with special restrictions on, say, Somali immigration).

In Mexico one sees mariachi (!) music videos with politicized lyrics such as “we’re coming for your jobs, we’re coming by the thousands, fences can’t stop us,” etc. The irony is that most Central American countries have their own immigration concerns, with Nicaraguans prominent on the don’t-you-dare-cross-my-border list. It’s absurd that every country has immigration laws, but the very same countries think the US should have no laws or borders. And US radicals, and even liberals, agree with those countries.

Ora pro nobis. When people’s pocketbooks start getting bare, look out. Maybe there are still enough swing voters in 2010 and 2012 to bring real change to Washington.

Apr 9, 2009 - 7:53 am 17. RWE:

To use a quote I have used multiple times before, someone said in 1988 “The problem in Washington DC is that is the Democrats proposed a bill to burn down the US Capitol then the Republican counter-proposal would be to accomplish the arson in series of small fires instead of one major one.”

This sounds like “There’s not a nickle’s worth of difference between the two parties.” to some and a heart warming example of national unity for others.

If you oppose the plans of the Inside The Beltway crowd you are always going to look radical. The increasing polarization is good news, not bad.

Apr 9, 2009 - 7:54 am 18. Annoy Mouse:

Interesting take Whiskey. “and are now discriminated against minorities in their own country” but here is where your wrong. It is not your country. It belongs to your overlords and they will dispense it as suits their enlightened benevolence. You will begin to except it entirely after you admit that guns are the priviledge of the state.
Your government hates you and expects you to go quietly into the night. Please die. The earth will be better without your carbon footprint.

Apr 9, 2009 - 8:28 am 19. Habu:

16. Mark
When people’s pocketbooks start getting bare, look out. Maybe there are still enough swing voters in 2010 and 2012 to bring real change to Washington.

I have little doubt that by 2010 our economic situation will look anything but more bleak .. there are still two perhaps three percentage points to be added to unemployment … according to RealtyTrac the banks are sitting on close to a million additional foreclosed homes they are not marketing in an attempt to keep further deflationary pricing. Major power China is deflatioary as are the Swiss, along with other. The ugliness is already deep and wide and we haven’t even got to the swimsuit competition.
The Resident will have choked on several more gaffes, ahd to handle rocket exchange at minimum between Israel and Iran by that time and so far his learning curve is not impressive.
He’s weakening our military which will by then have filtered down to the lowest common denominators in our society…not good.

The hope is to gain enough Rep seats to thwart any more of his nefarious work.

Apr 9, 2009 - 9:33 am 20. Dave the Kapampangan:

The 2004 SF Gate article reeks of “Sinner, I am holier than thou.” Could it be, after 2000 years, we are meeting the Pharisees?

Apr 9, 2009 - 9:59 am 21. Zim:

Obama has no intention of “ramming” through immigration. This is simply a way to stir up the hispanic community to come out and vote for the Dems. in 2010.

Apr 9, 2009 - 11:01 am 22. Armeggedon Rex:

With the multi-billion dollar funding of A.C.O.R.N. secure, Obama moves to ensure single party, socialist, control of the U.S. Government for the next several generations.
Here are 12-30 million (depending upon whose numbers you believe) additional reliable socialist voters who will be added to the rolls if this succeeds. These are people who were raised expecting overwhelming government intervention in their lives, sham elections, government controlled media, nationalized healthcare, subsidized food and shelter, and are so accustomed to corrupt government they don’t bat an eyelash at insignificant things like high officials failing to pay taxes, not that failure to pay taxes has been an issue for Obama appointees or anything…

I’ve always seen this development, along with attempted confiscation of semi-automatic firearm as the two most likely trip wires the FedGov would trigger that would cause the public to take Patrick Henry’s, and Sam Adams words to heart.

Nov. 13, 1787 “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” Thomas Jefferson

Apr 9, 2009 - 11:06 am 23. NahnCee:

“…to want to find the way forward that doesn’t involve some kind of Cold Civil War or people running amuck in the streets.”

I’m starting to think it’s a Darwinian evolutionary step. One side or the other needs to die off like the dinosaurs before humanity can progress. I just don’t see the liberals ever getting a clue and since they all are so naive and blind, I’m betting that after the Apocalypse — whatever it turns out to be — the libs will be the extinct 50%.

BTW — “amok”.

Apr 9, 2009 - 11:10 am 24. Mike Sylwester:

A US President probably could achieve a compromise of an amnesty in exchange for future enforcement of immigration laws, but no administration will commit to pay for either the administration of the amnesty nor for the future enforcement.

Everyone understood a couple years ago that President Bush did not intend commit the necessary funds, and everyone will understand in the coming years that President Obama will not commmit them either.

The budget of the Immigration and Naturalization Service (or whatever its called now) should be raised significantly merely in order to pay for current operations. If an amnesty and real enforcement were to be added to the agency’s mission, then the budget should be doubled, at least.

So, the Republicans’ immediate challenge to Obama’s proposals should be “show us the money” for the administration and enforcement.

Of course, we all know further that the Democrats never ever will enforce immigration laws effectively. That’s a given. After the immigration reform is signed and then the first sob story is published about some poor immigrant being subjected to an enforcement action, the Democrats’ resolve to enforce the laws will collapse completely.

Apr 9, 2009 - 11:43 am 25. NahnCee:

I could get behind an amnesty program that charged the little darlings for the privilege of becoming an American citizen and having sucked for free off the American teat for years.

If they can afford to pay a coyote thousands of dollars to get them here in the first place, then it seems to me that paying thousands of dollars upfront for every year they’ve been here would be equitable.

If you’ve been here illegally for ten years and you paid $3,000 to get smuggled in, then $30,000 would buy you citizenship. And that $30,000 would then be applied towards building the Mexican border fence or hiring more agents to patrol the border.

Also, I would like to see immigrants who are becoming citizens vow and swear that they will not be sending any more money “home” from America. If they’re going to be Americans, then America is “home” now.

Apr 9, 2009 - 12:13 pm 26. Armeggedon Rex:

NahnCee:

I like some of your ideas, but you set the price for U.S. citizenship far to low. Check out requirements for non-asylum seeking immigrants to Canada, Australia, Singapore, or New Zealand. If you’re a credible banker, doctor, engineer, scientist, or small business owner who is moving the company as well, you’re quite welcome. If you never graduated from high school, are a manual laborer, and have no desired trade / craft skills, you better be independently wealthy.

Most of the folks here illegally don’t meet any of these rather un-egalitarian criteria. If they did, the vast majority would be prosperously living in their country of birth. People with a useful education and / or skills are welcome in most places on earth.

Apr 9, 2009 - 12:25 pm 27. Mark:

Armeggedon Rex writes: “Check out requirements for non-asylum seeking immigrants to Canada, Australia, Singapore, or New Zealand. . . . Most of the folks here illegally don’t meet any of these rather un-egalitarian criteria.”

Yes, this is precisely the problem. We have two standards. Either immigrants have to be rich, in which case we take them. Or they are economic refugees, liberals feel sorry for them, and they want the government to take care of the poor until . . . well, there is no end to the process, I guess.

Unlike Nahncee, I don’t much mind seeing immigrants sending dollars to their home countries. That kind of concern for relatives back home is an indication of fine moral character. And ultimately those dollars are building the livlihoods of people “back there,” resulting in prosperity and less motivation to come here.

Apr 9, 2009 - 12:55 pm 28. Captain Ramen:

Bring most of the Army home and put them on the border with Mexico, augmented by a security fence. If the cartels win, and the government collapses, we are going to have a gigantic humanitarian crisis. It’ll make current illegal immigration look like a trickle.

Meanwhile, don’t use the Army to project force beyond our borders – we can use the Air Force, SpecOps, Marines and Navy for that. Commit the Army overseas if and only if other major powers also contribute large numbers of troops.

Once we secure the border I think we should do what Mark said in @16… America is great precisely because ambitious, hard working people flock here to get the most out of leveraging their talents.

@22, I realize I am going on anecdotal evidence here, but I just don’t see ‘12-30 million … additional reliable socialist voters’ because:
1) most people don’t vote anyway, why would they be any different?
2) Hispanics vote in droves for democrats for the same reason middle class blacks do. They believe the BS propaganda (reeepublicans is racist!) coming from the media. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to some of my younger in-laws, hearing their views, then asking them ‘ok, so why don’t you vote republican then?’ They wrinkle their noses and make an ugly face. Their parents voted GOP this time around, BTW.

Thomas Jefferson said, “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.” The problem with the GOP is that they are doing the opposite. Can anyone doubt this after watching that shriveled up old geezer John McCain, who made his career by sticking his thumb in the eye of the conservative base, blow the election?

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:03 pm 29. NahnCee:

“I don’t much mind seeing immigrants sending dollars to their home countries.”

So it’s fine with you if Somali’s are sending money “back home” so pirate brother can buy a bigger boat, or if Palestinians are sending money “back home” so Hamas can buy more missiles from Iran, or if Nigerians send money “back home” so they can afford the costs to genitally mutilate all their female spawn … ?

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:17 pm 30. Benj:

“Sometimes I think the only function that a blogger can perform is to become a chronicler of the descent into insanity. The issues are no longer Right versus Left; Conservative versus Liberal… ”

That’s from Wretch in the last thread – Sounds good…But it never lasts long with him. Here he is talking up the polarization meme – jumping off (I assume) from a WAshington Post piece by (Bush’s ex-speech-writer) Michael Gerson that was nicely debunked today by Sullivan/Silvers. The #’s don’t add up. GOP identification has shrunk and independeents are still rolling with O (60 percent according to Pew) So it’s not more polarization. Though there is more noise from the Hard Right…

But let’s get to the capper of the argument – W. goes back to 2004 to find a silly self-righteous piece glorifying the supposed history of liberal contrarianism – But isn’t that move just a way of ironizing away the truth that Wretch himself is not exactly a lone wolf. He plays an independent thinker like his right-wing compadres on PJTV. But, since I’ve been reading him closely, intellectual courage is simply not on offer. What distinguishes Wretch’s “line” from Fox or Rush or Weekley Standard apparatchik crapola? Whenever there is some actual argument jumping off on the right, Wretch no see/no hear. (As opposed to No fear, No die!) There’s been a lot of talk lately re cocooning on the right – Wretch makes sure most of the folks in his Club are pretty cozy…

I’ve been reading Whit Chambers’ Witness and I’m guessing it’s been a large influence on Wretch – And not just the Manichean thing – Chambers’ mind is reflected in the Club’s old tagline – “History in the Making” is Chambers’ definition of politics. But, of course, Chambers pretty much incarnated intellectual courage. And not just when he broke with the CP. It’s no surprise that among Chambers’ closest buds were independent radical imaginations like James Agee and Meyer Shapiro. But beyond the personal. I think of Chambers’ famous review of Ayn Rand’s nasty idiocies. Going Galt nowadays?? Chambers would’ve been revolted. Not a word from Wretch though…

Apr 9, 2009 - 2:49 pm 31. Dave the Kapampangan:

“Unlike Nahncee, I don’t much mind seeing immigrants sending dollars to their home countries.”

Me, neither. If an immigrant has already been vetted and is on the short list for citizenship, it shouldn’t be assumed that they are sending money to criminal enterprises.

If, on the other hand, you CAN make a blanket assumption that they are sending money to pirates and terrorists, then they shouldn’t be on the citizenship short list in the first place. The kind of citizens you want send money overseas to put their kid brother or sister to nursing school, or help their invalid dad, who doesn’t get workman’s comp after accidents in the third world sweatshop. It’s what any decent family member would do.

The reason why Silicon Valley keeps clamoring for H1-B visas permitting overseas types to work here is because immigrant wannabes work like horses (in comparison to me-generation local hires who are products of the US education system) after being starved for a fair shake in their home dictatorship, didn’t like it much there, and beat the competition just to get here to these shores for a chance at the race. It’s a real sweet deal for any employer to get folks who work twice as hard, voluntarily, who don’t have the privileged attitude of, “You owe me, man” or “Doesn’t this job allow web surfing?”

Apr 9, 2009 - 3:21 pm 32. Armeggedon Rex:

Dave the Kapampangan #31:

Show me a H1-B high tech worker in Silicon Valley who doesn’t surf the web at work…

If they don’t surf occationally, they probably aren’t worth much and are running like a rat on a wheel trying to keep their head above water.

Most scientists and engineers use the internet for occational reference work, and must keep in touch with co-workers, suppliers and / or customers vie email, twitter, facebook, etc.

Are the H1-B workers of your aquaintance working in a soldering assembly line sweatshop in East San Jose or what?

Apr 9, 2009 - 3:34 pm 33. Al Reasin:

The 1986 amnesty also promised to close the border so that illegal
immigration would be controlled and the Democratic congress wouldn’t, so now we have 12 million plus llegals. Why should I or anyone else trust the government again? Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Apr 9, 2009 - 3:45 pm 34. blert:

In the Silicon Valley I know the H1-B visas seem ever destined for India.

And so we import their privileged ‘princes’ who typically are so arrogant and lazy that ‘co-workers’ wonder how they earn their keep. Sure enough, they’re off down the road to victim enterprise number two. Eventually time runs out and they run home.

Sure, there are some very bright high output Indians — take a look at the ownership of hot shot tech firms — but we get a ton of fluff, too.

The number one reason that H1-B is so popular is it cripples the negotiating power of native born programmers. Period.

The number of turfed out software engineers in their late thirties, early forties is legion.

It’s the Patricians versus the Proletarians; and H1-B is the stick they use to keep the boolean boys at their tables and all one.

Apr 9, 2009 - 4:01 pm 35. mac:

Of course he’s going to attempt to get an immigration bill slammed through Congress. He knows damned well that the majority of the people are going to be extremely unhappy when they realize what this huge spending bill will really mean in terms of their taxes. Many of the 43% of whites who voted for him will repent of that error. Consequently, his effort to counter that cognitive dissonance will be to import and legalize enough votes who won’t care about high taxes (since they don’t pay taxes anyway.)

Bottom line: Obama hates this country and hates whites. He’ll do what he can to hurt them and swamping them in a tide of brown and black immigrants would be his favorite way to do it. If you’re white, the government is not only not on your side, it actively injures you, and you might as well recognize that fact.

Apr 9, 2009 - 4:04 pm 36. Armeggedon Rex:

blert #34:

You nailed it. Electronics and computer engineers from Shanghai fill a similar roll in those fields, but many of them are very hard workers. Because of language, and educational background difficulties they often must work twice as hard to contribute their share to the project they work on. One of the most difficult things in high tech seems to be interfacing with the customer and discerning (sometimes it seems like magic) what they really want, as opposed to what they ask for. Most immigrant engineers and scientists who speak English as a second language exacerbate this problem mightily.

Apr 9, 2009 - 4:17 pm 37. winslow:

This is probably the wrong place to introduce a new point of view. An organization of people, whether capitalist or socialist, requires a common cultural stream. Civilization is fragile Itis built on the past. Immigration disrupts the existing cultural stream. Successful immigration adapts to the existing cultural stream. Obama’s masters are determined to destroy our successful cultural stream, in any way possible. Immigration reform is only one avenue.

Apr 9, 2009 - 6:13 pm 38. NahnCee:

Mexico’s economy is totally based upon remittances from Mexicans living in, and mooching off of, America. That is just wrong. And should not be allowed if they want to be legal citizens of the United States of America.

Apr 9, 2009 - 10:24 pm 39. Wadeusaf:

Benj, do you just visit here to expunge those tin foil demons? Wow dude, OT and way out there. Getting kinda sad, if you know what I mean.

As Gerson wasn’t raised as a link for the article here, I have problems with your use of it to attack the thinking of the thread lead. Did you read the SF Gate article. No? Am I Surprised? Yes. Finding those Converse chewy? I suggest boiling good old cow leather next time you seek to insert your foot.

I see the main threat to any talk about immigration reform is not the “Bush” suggestion of a path to citizenship but in the fact that the promises made in the Last Comprehensive Reform Bills titles, sub titles and supposed intent, was nothing at all like the actual legislation contained there in. The effort and folly in attempting to bamboozle the American voting public has made any effort at bipartisanship to be suspect at best. The smell wafting from the legislative process of late is not pleasant to say the least. The continued farce of passing legislation that works against the best interest of the majority while selling it as a valuable gotta do just doesn’t hold up when folks get the opportunity to read the bill, the executive order, the campaign promise compromised. It also does not bode well when all that is there for weeks on end is the promise of a plan.

The polarization shows a lack of leadership, an inability to defend against slander and the unwillingness to go on the offensive against lies and distortion. Just what is it on which folks agree with the President?

Oh yeah, it was Bush’s fault?

Apr 10, 2009 - 3:36 am 40. weSwinger:

Comes Benj once again to mount one of his patented scathing attacks on our host. Vague accusations are followed by whack after whack with a straw man, in this case Whittaker Chambers. Does Wretch measure up to Mr. Chambers? Woudld such comparisons matter to an intelligent critic? As a card-carrying member of the Ivy League elite, of course Chambers did not get Ms. Rand, just as Benj doesn’t. But flail away Benj, reveal your ignorance.

Or better yet, stick to your own website and fever swamps. If you’re going to make a case, write a piece for Pajamas, provide cites, build something, see if they’ll take it. Otherwise you’re just another troll.

Apr 10, 2009 - 3:43 am 41. Dave the Kapampangan:

#34 “H1-B (visa) is so popular is it cripples the negotiating power of native born programmers. Period.”

“H1-B visas seem ever destined for India. And so we import their privileged ‘princes’ who typically are so arrogant and lazy…”

#36 “Electronics and computer engineers from Shanghai fill a similar roll in those fields”

Oh I get it. Indian and Chinese immigrant job seekers are actually a management conspiracy to “cripple the negotiating power” of natives, “period.” And these newcomers are typically “arrogant and lazy princes,” and therefore noncompetitive when compared to the skills of real job seekers, so it all must be a corporate negotiating ploy to undermine native employee power.

Maybe. But here’s an alternative explanation for the presence of immigrant competition for software jobs:

What percentage of your software programming classes in college were ESL speakers? That same percentage probably stuck around after college to try and find a job.

That seems simpler.

Any person who feels threatened might point to the absolute worst examples of a population and paint the entire race (read Indians and Chinese) with the same brush. They could tar all immigrants with the “lazy and arrogant” brush or blanketly portray all multilinguals as “unable to communicate” adequately in English and therefore uncompetitive as job seekers.

But in reality there are skill distributions. And within the curves there is overlap. Just as some natives and multilinguals could be poor or reluctant communicators, there are also some percentage of communicative and talented multilinguals within the bell curve– those who thrived in an English-immersion roommate environment and would make decent and hardworking new hires if they stuck around after college.

The small community of first tier native speaking job seekers is quickly snapped up by the higher paying employers. Within the second tier there is overlap between talented multilinguals and native speakers. Within the third tier are many companies with tight budgets who are tempted hire cheap or outsource.

That’s how I view the job situation. But some would rather believe that no percentage of immigrants could possibly be competent; therefore, it’s all a management conspiracy to hire incompetents to “cripple the negotiating power of natives, period.” Well, it’s a free country; they’re entitled to their opinions.

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:03 am 42. Unsk:

Lifeofthemind:

“Anyone who Enters Without Inspection (EWI) should be banned from ever gaining citizenship. No child of an EWI should be granted citizenship. ”

Here! Here! but add “and should be denied all welfare payments” .

The real driving force in this immigration debate is that the Democrats think through the granting of amnesty and citizenship to illegals they can change the demographics of the voting population so it will be permanently overwhelmingly Democrat. Without the allure of getting millions of new ignorant and willfully left victims/voters, the desire for immigration reform for the Democrats would surely die quickly.

Apr 10, 2009 - 8:27 am 43. blert:

Dave @41…

Sounds like you’re talking theory and faith from the outside.

I’m speaking from my own lying eyes and ears.

BTW, H1-Bs are not normally issued to resident aliens sitting in American classrooms with English their second language. Instead, Microsoft, et. al. send recruiters overseas to free-ride on the best and the brightest of India and China. Because of the Indian caste system many of their best and brightest are at the top purely by nature of birth status. They live the life of little princes and in every way believe that they are better than anybody else. Plainly you have never met such H1-B ‘workers.’ They are not rare.

AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, we do get some really top performers. However, to a striking degree they quickly step out and start up their own outfit. This is not quite what their employers have in mind! So the motivation of the EMPLOYER is to cram down the wages of the intellectual elite.

It is of note that IBM is laying off 5,000 ish in the US while is hiring 5,000 ish in India. That’s our TARP money put to good use!

At the end of the day, many an employer regrets the shift to India as the performance downside finally kicks them in the head. I rather suspect that some similar stimulus would be required for you to climb down from your perch of piety and realize that you are reading ground truth — not bigotry.

Regards.

Apr 10, 2009 - 12:33 pm 44. Dave the Kapampangan:

Blert@43

I worked Silicon Valley for four years before moving to my current job (startup went under). So don’t presume I’m talking from the outside and that “plainly” I have never met such H1-B workers simply because I have had different experiences than you.

Just as you are, I’m merely reporting what I’ve seen at work in Alameda, whether or not it coincides with what you’ve seen. Another valid piece of the data pie.

And what I’ve seen is a distribution of various different types, not a blanket picture. For the record, I am no more pious than anybody else.

I actually agree with you on two points.
1) As you mentioned, you do get occasional top performers, as well as need to screen out many worthless performers when hiring.

2) If employers perceive more downside to shifting to India, they’ll stop doing it.

If employers don’t like incompetent employees with princely attitudes, arrogance, and laziness, simply don’t hire them; they’re obviously a bad deal. This is logic, not bigotry.

My point, I reiterate, is that employers should not assume an attitude problem in a particular job seeker solely on the basis of last name, race, or skin color.

If IBM and others have ridiculous hiring policies destined for disaster, or they exercise very poor judgment in hiring because they either have stereotyped Indians an unadulterated good or an unadulterated evil, that is a problem they need to address before it brings the business down.

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:55 pm 45. veracious:

Wr,

The lords and common took vows to create and live under our Constitution and the fundamental individual rights from on high. It was well established that USA was to be a nation of _laws_ not of men, like no place in history.

One side vacates those vows and redefines them on a daily basis. These vows are merely sandbags keeping them from eating pie in the sky.

We all agree human life is far from perfect. Sky pilots imagine that forcing US to abandon solid ground will transform clouds into pie. Land lovers understand, motives which corrupt shall _never_ die, but by Adonai.

Allowing millions of law breaking foreigners to become citizen is like allowing criminals to do as they please. Currently, only the righteous are held to the law, no matter how alien they become.

HD,
Totally agree there is one party, the DC_dudes staffed with _harvard_boys_. All funded by China and OPEC.

Apr 10, 2009 - 4:40 pm 46. Benj:

WAde – this thread is dead so I figure this is just between the two of us – a couple days ago (?) I noticed you mentioned in response to another poster (not me) that you’d taken a quick look at a FIRST piece on David Horowitz and reparations. You were non-commital. Didn’t sound like the piece had spoken to you particularly – maybe you got zip from it – but the point is you’d tried it on. So much so that you could reference it months later…Truth-to-tell, you strike me as MUCH more intellectually curious than your boy Wretch. And you’re not the only one at the Club. Though there’s a lotsa folks who aren’t here to think…If that means (as that smart nazi Hiedegger once said) “coming into the nearness of distance…” –

Buddy and I “solved” my Wretch problem – I thought (for a hot second back in the day) W. was an indenpendent thinker – and lines like the one I quoted show how he’s still a tease on that front. I’ll keep tabs on him because I got into the habit of marking him when he talked an enormous amount of scurilous nonsense during the campaign. Nothing obsessive – I read fast! – and I get grist – a couple peices so far! But the main reason I pay attention to Wretch now is because I know folks like you do. And you deserve a LOT more…As a great man once said – How do I know what I want until I know what there is?

Apr 10, 2009 - 10:41 pm 47. Wadeusaf:

As I try to be square, I found the circular motion in all of this surprisingly comic, if not for the seriousness of it.

In 2003 or 2004 I was discussing a similar theme on a different forum, and either came across or was referred to the O’Brien article published at first of the Month Club. I did not recall its opening paragraphs (that did not then and still do not sing to me), and when in seeking out another reference when we were discussing the similar argument (to quote O’Brien “Wasn’t this where we came in? Or have we been here at all?”) skipped past (the now obvious) it. It being the Salon Article of 2000 entitled “The latest civil rights disaster” in which Horowitz detailed his ten points.

http://archive.salon.com/news/col/horo/2000/05/30/reparations/index.html

Pot-kettle, kettle-pot. Damn,

Come to think of it, I recall similar difficulty finding the stupid Horowitz piece in 2003/4 because folks on that forum kept referring to it as an advertisement lifting the reference directly from O’Brien’s 2001 article.

Man this is de javu, all over again.

My point is still the same, I believe Horowitz is still an idiot for treating Mr. Robinson’s book in the manner he did.

I owe you an apology, and the other fellow as well. I believe, not surprisingly, that is also how my first discussion ended.

Apr 12, 2009 - 6:18 am

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