Francis Cianfrocca looks at all the “moving parts” in the Chrysler bankruptcy and tries to figure out where they are all headed. His first problem is to understand the game, which on the face of it doesn’t make sense, until you look at it from a certain angle.
I have at least two very big questions, one of which is public and the other isn’t … The public question relates to Fiat. Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne, focused as he is on overtaking Volkswagen, has been very emphatic that he will put no cash into Chrysler in return for Fiat’s stake, which starts at 20% and could go as high as 51% by 2016. Fiat is giving nothing but access to small-car technology. That can only mean that the government intends to dictate Chrysler’s production mix. That in turn means that the government has chosen to enter the auto business in a forthright and unprecedented way.
The private question relates to the current owner of Chrysler, which is Cerberus Capital Management, one of the most powerful, most wealthy, and most feared private equity groups in the world. They easily have access to billions of dollars they could invest in Chrysler. As of a month ago, they had gotten more than $5.5 billion from the feds. The fact that they simply don’t want to invest their own money tells you that Chrysler as a company isn’t worth investing in, and ipso facto the taxpayers are flushing money down the toilet.
In short, it’s a hell of way to run a business. If you were running a business. So what, Cianfrocca asks, is going on here. The first thing to observe is that the taxpayer money flushed down the toilet really doesn’t go to waste. There are people willing and able to stand between the drain pipe and the septic tank and strain out all the bills, ready to sponge them dry. They don’t mind the odor and in fact may think it lends a certain character to the proceedings, the object of which is really to transfer dollars from one set of pockets into another, the real purpose of the underlying game. Cianfrocca writes:
The real import of the story, of course, is that President Obama is picking sides. Bankruptcy proceedings are adversarial, and the goal is for an impartial judge or trustee to balance the competing claims in light of the rule of law, the existing contracts, and the ultimate good of all the parties. … As it seldom has before, the US government under Barack Obama is directly superseding private contracts, ex post facto. They can change the rules on anyone, anytime, for reasons they only have to explain through a cowed and uninquisitive press.
The Business Insider (hat tip: Hot Air) alleges that a second source (Lauria being the first) in the negotiations has alleged that the White House been using strongarm tactics to make the cards come up their way.
The sources, who represent creditors to Chrysler, say they were taken aback by the hardball tactics that the Obama administration employed to cajole them into acquiescing to plans to restructure Chrysler. One person described the administration as the most shocking “end justifies the means” group they have ever encountered. Another characterized Obama was “the most dangerous smooth talker on the planet- and I knew Kissinger.” Both were voters for Obama in the last election. One participant in negotiations said that the administration’s tactic was to present what one described as a “madman theory of the presidency” in which the President is someone to be feared because he was willing to do anything to get his way. The person said this threat was taken very seriously by his firm.
The White House has denied the allegation that it threatened Perella Weinberg.
If the accounts cited by the Business Insider are true they would suggest that whoever is doing the shaking down has done it before because it’s an acquired skill; one unlikely to be taught in the polite halls of academia or in genteel salons, and more likely to be learned in the political world of Chicago. But how could that be, after all the assurances by the blog-free zone press that this was going to be the most ethical administration in history, led not by an ordinary man but by a transcendent figure fit to stand alongside Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Gandhi? Did they get that part wrong? Well now’s the time to for the uncowed and inquisitive to ask questions. Because if not now then why bother?
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143 Comments
1. watcher:I seem to remember, when we studied Marxism in school, something about the workers (UAW) taking over the means of production (Chrysler). I wonder how far this will go. I wonder how Obama’s successors will ever undo it.
May 5, 2009 - 6:03 pm 2. Kinuachdrach:From the article: “First, he [Obama] doesn’t want to see massive layoffs at Chrysler and its network of suppliers and dealers.”
Maybe, maybe not. Obama happily sentenced 90,000 workers to the unemployment line by canceling the F-22. I guess a fair number of them were unionized too.
Most of what Obama has done in his first 100 days can be completely explained by either of two competing explanations — (1) he is not very smart, and rather naive with it; (2) he is deviously pursuing an undeclared agenda.
I have been searching for an action that would break the tie by clearly favoring one or the other explanation. The Chrysler situation may be it — (1) is now in the lead.
May 5, 2009 - 6:10 pm 3. Ashcat:Kinuachdrach:”I have been searching for an action that would break the tie by clearly favoring one or the other explanation. The Chrysler situation may be it — (1) is now in the lead.”
To me, the willingness to bust heads and blatantly ignore contracts suggests explanations more consistent with #2 than #1. How do you see such willingness as evidence of not being smart/naivete?
May 5, 2009 - 6:25 pm 4. JMH:Maybe Obama is doing us a favor by opening the can-o-worms about prosecuting former adminstration officials. His administration appears to be one big RICO operation.
Like some of us figured it would be.
May 5, 2009 - 6:26 pm 5. joe buzz:“it’s a hell of way to run a business”……..
May 5, 2009 - 6:32 pm 6. Armeggedon Rex:and an even worse way to run a country.
I seem to recall an Acorn assisted voter from Illinois after voting in Ohio saying something about wanting to see Obama get his “thug thizzle on”. Well wino pundit aint have long to wait.
I am sure that Benj will be along shortly to explain in 15 paragraphs or more that these bondholders have misinterpreted the good faith negotiations.
This really is the end for U.S. owned large scale automobile manufacturing.
This Chrysler “deal you can’t refuse” will wind up being the template for the eventual G.M. disposition. The G.M. shakedown may differ somewhat in the details, but rest assured, the chief benefactor and controlling interest will be Obamassiah’s allies, the unions.
With two major domestic auto manufacturers in thrall to unions, Ford will be faced with an insurmountable adversary the next time contract negotiations take place.
The unions will pour all their now tax payer backed resources into breaking the private ownership of Ford.
The timing I haven’t figured out yet is when the Obammunists will slap a tariff on the European and Asian owned auto makers to ensure the over priced, quality challenged, union manufactured, and inferior American cars are at least marginally competitive in the marketplace.
The other question is if the imminent collapse of Pakistan and possession of nuclear weapons by the Taliban and / or Al Qaeda in the very near future will render all this hand wringing over auto production silly in retrospect.
May 5, 2009 - 6:38 pm 7. Stan:Start with the assessment that Obama has a pretty thin “real world” and historical knowledge base. His acceptence of Andrew Sullivan’s Churchill anecdote and mis-understanding of JFK’s mtg w/ Kruschev and his willful abandonment of the US’s image in exchange for his own says he is ahistorical. He has had no business background or real job experience except early on as a business news/analysis aggragator for a short time. On what is he basing his unprecedented initiatives? Who is his foreign policy guru? Summers appears to be on the economic side…
Simply stated: apropos of (1) in item #2 above he doesn’t have the knowledge base to understand what he is doing. Who is he listening to? And, where do they think they are taking us? Or, is their sole agenda a narrow political one: be in charge (as Dems) regardless of what the USA looks like?
Is this the flip side of the Rovian pursuit of a permanent electoral majority?
May 5, 2009 - 6:38 pm 8. E. Nigma:Comparing him to Lincoln is also somewhat amusing. Lincoln was first and foremost a lawyer; a railroad lawyer. He frequently represented the railroads, and one of the premises of the new Republican Party in the late 1850’s was “internal improvements”, such as a (drum roll), a transcontinental railroad.
Of course, the end of slavery and the emancipation of the Black African as a slave in America dissolved more capital than all the railroads and banks in the country were worth at the time, but I am beginning to believe that certain sorts of capital are illusions anyways. So frankly, the comparison to certain aspects of Lincoln may be more apt than many think on first or second glance.
Back to Obama.
No, he is not stupid or clumsy. But he has a world view that it decidedly different than many Americans (Democrat or Republican), and even now, we are only beginning to discern the outlines of it, as if through a glass, and darkly.
Clues, we’ve got clues.
Francis Cianfrocco’s insights, the Lauria anecdote, and much, much more.
The “ends justify the means”, “spread the wealth around”, 20 years of Rev. Wright and “positive rights” are just more little clues as to nature of the riddle of the Sphinx that is Barack Obama.
Just calling Obama a socialist, communist, collectivist, Alinskyite, etc. doesn’t really get to the root of just what his endgame is. Just what DOES he see as his “endgame” for America? And how much will he gamble to get it? He has apparently won the gamble with re-structuring Chrysler, but in the process he has revealed more of himself and the warning lights are flashing the minds of some of those that so recently applauded him.
May 5, 2009 - 6:41 pm 9. Stan:The forces of economics and foreign policy are greater than individual politicians and even parties ultimately. Obama is running head-long into immovable objects: Trillion dollar deficts HAVE to be financed or paid by somebody, Al-Qaida and other strongmen around the world (NK, Iran, Sudan, Putin, Chi-Coms) have to be opposed or they get their way at the EXPENSE of those around them. Submitting to them is not a fair bargain.
Lincoln and Ghandi are interesting cases. Lincoln ultimately had to resort to force of arms… Ghandi could only have succeeded against The Brits and maybe the US. If he had been in ’s Germany or Stalin’s Russia, or Kim Jong Il (Sr.)’s Korea or Mao’s China he and many of his early supporters would have died painfully and early.
May 5, 2009 - 6:57 pm 10. Paul Milenkovic:I have always wanted a Stow-n-go Minivan as a second car. Do you think this is a good time to buy one?
Yeah, I have a personal, mercenary reason for asking this question. But I think it goes to the heart of what is happening with the economy. I am wondering if even people who can get credit or have saved some money are reluctant to make major purchases.
On one hand, the answer may be “Go for it!” The Web page of the local Chrysler dealer has the owner on a video pleading with potential customers to come in.
On the other hand, maybe the reason Chrysler is in the tank is that they cannot offer big enough discounts to get people off their couches to go off and expose themselves to the sales associates at the local dealership. If the plan is to shortchange the senior bond holders, maybe the plan is to not offer much in the way of concessions to the car buyer either.
It has been said that an auto company is a system for paying for some retiree’s health insurance. Maybe if I go to the dealer, I will be disappointed in what I would have to pay for the minivan as there is not much bargaining room on the price.
Maybe I should buy this thing now because when the economy recovers, these things will get a lot more expensive. And then there is the inflation bomb to consider.
Maybe I should wait. When the government gets tired of supporting the domestic auto companies, perhaps I can buy a Kia or Hyundai minivan or perhaps a Chinese minivan for less money. This has worked with TV’s.
If I had a clearer picture of where things are going, maybe I wouldn’t be sitting around at home and not buying anything.
May 5, 2009 - 7:06 pm 11. Walt:Walter Chrysler built his cars
May 5, 2009 - 7:14 pm 12. Gordon:With care and keen attention
To see that style and detail mars
Got hardly any mention
In feedback from his customers
Who liked the product mostly
There were of course the few demurs
But grievances were ghostly
Until that is the union halls
Took over car production
With worker rights and work rule calls
And quality reduction
But times were fat so no one cared
That wages were a-soaring
And no one in his right mind dared
To think of underscoring
The risks of competition from
The Japanese and Germans
Get beat? they smiled, they’re just too dumb
Those Takeos and Hermans
Now Walter Chrysler, resting good
Looks down so sad and wonders
How guys as smart Reuther could
Have made so many blunders
Start the movement: “Don’t buy GM!! Don’t buy Chrysler!! Trade your Jeep!!”
(as if people need to be told)
May 5, 2009 - 7:23 pm 13. joe buzz:Ah walt….could you not have worked in “Dodge Dart” or at least “slant six” just for old times sake?
May 5, 2009 - 7:30 pm 14. maineman:“Just what DOES he see as his “endgame” for America?”
What part of “God Damn America” is so difficult to understand?
May 5, 2009 - 7:34 pm 15. NullificationNow:In Lincoln’s first few months in office he looted the treasury, giving millions to dubious military equipment and service providers. Lincoln may have been naive but he wasn’t a thief, the Kenyan is a thief and he is steeling us blind. The parasite UAW have no idea what’s in-store when they produce auto’s that no one will buy, this is going to be a real mess. In the long run, good car professionals will buy off the brands and start anew but what a colossal waste of good will, time and money.
May 5, 2009 - 7:34 pm 16. joe buzz:thwart, fix and government pricks……….you are on your own with hemispherical though!
May 5, 2009 - 7:38 pm 17. Annoy Mouse:Do not expect the press to begin a thoughtful introspection anytime soon. They are in it for the win and having their side in the halls of power is what they live for. They are not watch dogs of democracy they are coconspirators in a soft-coup. They have been predicting the loss of freedom and liberty for so long they have a vested interest in seeing it through. It is the law of attraction and the press will be hallowed for their participation in improbable destruction of America which they call progressivism.
Our children have been reprogrammed against their parents, the schools preach a religion of hatred against the tax payer, the teacher unions use the children to attack the populace with their hate filled rhetoric, and they have all of the skills to debate their motives with such winning arguments as, you’re a Nazi, racist, homophobe, and rejoinders like “I know you are but what am I”. Jeanne Garafalo, Al Franken, Bill Maher, and John Stewart are not the symptom they are the problem.
The government has been taken over by leftist exetremists who do not respect open debate, they are ready, willing and able to act in every way that they accused George Bush because it is in them to do what they accuse others of doing. The war against the two party system has been won and this never could have happened without Hollywood, the media, the press. They do not believe in checks and balances, they believe in one party rule. They believe in denigrating everything this country ever stood for and they will hasten its’ demise because a house divided against itself shall not stand. Not if it is not dome through voting. Democrats do not want you to vote, they want you to die, and do it quietly with dignity, and please, turn the light off and leave the key under the mat. The new masters have arrived.
Your government hates you and wants you to die. Faster please.
May 5, 2009 - 7:42 pm 18. RWE:Neil Boortz explained the significance of how the Chrysler bankruptcy was handled. Normally the “creditors” – bond holders and so forth – are the first to be paid. But the Obama Admin instead told the creditors that they better play ball and take what they would give them. When they demurred to this honor, the White House told them “Too bad.” And then gave the unions first dibs on the pickings, in defiance of all law and precedent.
Boortz said that this could only mean that the financial industry would have to weigh carefully the impact of influential unions in deciding loans and very probably decide that when the unions had bought the politicians involved that the loan was too risky. And you can see where that will lead. Strongarm political tactics will be applied when the unions need some financial help for the companies they have preyed upon. “Nice little bank ya gotcha here. Be too bad if sumthin’ was to happen to it. Like the IRS, fer example. Or maybe some ACORN demonstrators was’ta bust in. Really be too bad.”
This is beginning to look like the sequel to “Johnny Dangerously.”
May 5, 2009 - 7:43 pm 19. oMan:What is Obama’s endgame? Look up “Mugabe” and you’ll have a clue.
May 5, 2009 - 7:45 pm 20. noprisoners:I’m not sober enough to do any of Wretchard’s posts enough justice. It’s a pity because he deserves credible commentary.
May 5, 2009 - 8:11 pm 21. Annoy Mouse:Who will buy the Obamautomobile? Don’t fret, once the means of production have been aquired “tough new standards” will be enacted. Visualize the EPA, OHSA, Homer Simpson designed car. If that doesn’t work, certainly trade protection will against democracies. Don’t think it will work against China though. We owe them too much.
May 5, 2009 - 8:11 pm 22. Kinuachdrach:Ashcat asks: “How do you see such willingness as evidence of not being smart/naivete?”
Agreed that this can be looked at in more than one way. The evidence for Obama’s lack of smarts/naivite is that he has apparently forgotten that the “rules” protect him as well as constrain him.
Once people start to realize that the President has said that a signed contract & established case law mean nothing (forget the rule of law, we are back to the rule of men), then others also will no longer consider themselves constrained. There are other kids in the sandbox, and some of them carry big sticks. As head of the lawful government, Obama has most to lose when the law itself is discarded.
If Obama was pursuing an undeclared agenda, he would not have thrown away his main advantage over something as insignificant as Chrysler. On the other hand, the “not very smart & quite naive” explanation still works.
Of course, he could be not smart, quite naive, and still be pursuing an undeclared agenda. It’s a toughie.
May 5, 2009 - 8:14 pm 23. Aristide:Is this the new GM (Government Motors) Chrysler?
May 5, 2009 - 8:30 pm 24. Ashcat:Kinuachdrach @22: thanks for the clarification.
You said: “Once people start to realize that the President has said that a signed contract & established case law mean nothing (forget the rule of law, we are back to the rule of men), then others also will no longer consider themselves constrained.”
Many will be constrained by fear–already are constrained by it–fear of the full force of government to ruin its enemies, with media complicity, even cheering. Read the courage and fear in this letter by a hedge fund manager (sorry if already posted here, but I don’t think so):
May 5, 2009 - 8:31 pm 25. Habu:http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-this-hedge-fund-managers-not-afraid-of-big-bad-obama-2009-5
19. oMan
You’ve nailed it, or him.
The focus should not be on the machinations of dollars and accounts but the now very plain thuggish manner in which obama is conducting the US.
In foreign policy with the only democracy in the ME he is a thug. In the dealings described by the people involved in this Fiat/Chrysler deal obama is a thug. These are but two of many, many examples in just the first 100 days plus of his brass knuckled approach to governing.
I would remind the contributors and readers that he has promised down the road an internal armed force prepared to enforce his ideas, be they legal or not. He can draw from the Farrakhan NOI thugs to form the core and recruit from there.
I have mentioned many times that a hard rain is gonna fall and all indications are that obamas reach will one day exceed his grasp, crossing a line with his thugs that will get a revolutionary push back. He already has his Homeland Secretary setting the battlefield by attempting to identify normal Americans as potential threats. It’s Alinsky rule number 10. The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition
obama is attempting through Alinsky rule 8. Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions and utilize all events of the period for your purpose. and rule 11. If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside. Once again setting the battlefield, on HIS terms
So far he is winning BIG. We here understand and Joe Sixpack, who made a Faustian deal with obama for a “tax” break and a ballon of air is beginning to see the ugly side.
After all, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, or if it’s going to rain.
May 5, 2009 - 8:34 pm 26. Stan:A friend of mine called the newest organization:
Obama’s Motor Group… OMG, how fitting.
May 5, 2009 - 8:36 pm 27. Walt:Joe Buzz @13
Had a ‘68 Dodge Dart, slant six, $2,800 new. Great car.
Aristide @23
No, Chrysler is not the new GM (Government Motors. GMC is still GMC.
Now that GM means Government Made
We all feel so much better
To know best plans are being made
To add another letter
You see the guv’mint can’t exist
With acronyms a twosey
Three letters please, they do insist
And they’re not even choosy
GMA or GMZ
It really doesn’t matter
What counts is that it counts to three
That’s how they climb the ladder
You think a man with pride would take
A job with just two letters?
A laughingstock would him do make
With his G-15 betters
We need good men for jobs as large
As building cars like lemons
‘Less Barney Frank put him in charge
And then he’s building wemons
So GMC it is, your dough
Has bought it, it’s a wrap
And GMC now stands, you know
For just more Government Made Crap
With apologies to Thomas W. Crapper, inventor, who dreamed of immortality in the sanitary business, but the gods of immortality are sometimes cruelly playful.
May 5, 2009 - 8:41 pm 28. Lifeofthemind:Rahm Emmanuel, the Judas Goat of this administration, told 300 major contributors to Jewish organizations that Israel had better acquiesce to the Palestinian state, or else. The “or else” being an Iranian nuke. There has never been thuggery like this from the White House. No matter what you thought of Andrew Jackson or Lincoln or FDR or LBJ or Nixon or any of them, this is violence and theft in broad daylight. My Father once said of someone, “He has the nerves of a Burglar.”
May 5, 2009 - 9:01 pm 29. Lifeofthemind:The government is a beast that can and will simultaneously tax gasoline and tires and raise highway and bridge tolls to subsidize mass transit while raising other taxes, thereby crippling the businesses and individuals who would use the mass transit systems, in order to subsidize the UAW that can’t support itself by building automobiles for the market.
Most people believe that rent control works. Most people will believe in anything that shifts the shell hiding the costly pea.
May 5, 2009 - 9:14 pm 30. Robohobo:Kinuachdrach @ 22: “Of course, he could be not smart, quite naive, and still be pursuing an undeclared agenda. It’s a toughie.”
He is stupid, his handlers are not. I heard him speak extemporaneously today and it was a complete hash. Unintelligible doublespeak. Since as Annoy Mouse says @ 17: “Democrats do not want you to vote, they want you to die, and do it quietly with dignity, and please, turn the light off and leave the key under the mat. The new masters have arrived.” Sorry, not going to go quietly like the denizens of the Warsaw ghetto. Because that is what these guys are, just another form of National Socialist. They are what they have accused us of being.
Habu @ 25: “I would remind the contributors and readers that he has promised down the road an internal armed force prepared to enforce his ideas, be they legal or not.”
Heh, to be met by 80 million armed citizens. Ever read “Empire” by Orson Scott Card? I recommend it. Card is asked to set up the conditions for internal revolt in the US and how it might be begun and by who. Very interesting read. http://tinyurl.com/yusn3f or http://tinyurl.com/cssgdu
From Hatrack.com (Card’s site):
“The American Empire has grown too fast, and the fault lines at home are stressed to the breaking point. The war of words between Right and Left has collapsed into a shooting war, though most people just want to be left alone.”
“The battle rages between the high-technology weapons on one side and militia foot soldiers on the other, devastating the cities and overrunning the countryside. But the vast majority, who only want the killing to stop and the nation to return to more peaceful days, have technology, weapons, and strategic geniuses of their own.”
“When the American dream shatters into violence, who can hold the people and the government together? And which side will you be on?”
What is the endgame?
Us, in chains.
May 5, 2009 - 9:33 pm 31. Robohobo:“One Party Rule Forever!” By Orson Scott Card – February 16, 2009
http://tinyurl.com/depumk
Money quote: “And Obama has set himself up to rig all future American elections, not through any democratic process, but by fiat. Just like a dictator.” . . . “Remember how, when the Patriot Act was passed, we were flooded with outraged stories in the press about how Americans’ rights were going to be trampled on?” . . . “None of it came true.” . . . “But now we have a genuine attack on the roots of the Constitution and the principle of counting only people who can be proven to exist when apportioning the House of Representatives. It’s a naked grab for power. It’s a coup d’etat.”
And this is from a lifelong Democrat!
May 5, 2009 - 9:44 pm 32. Cowboy:30/Robohobo
They tried putting in estimated numbers in 1990 and 2000 as well. A lot of academics support the move, claiming their statistical models are scientific.
They no doubt are scientific, but after the estimate method gets in the door who is to say if the methodology isn’t adhered to or rather gamed by the political players?
No doubt exists that the libs will keep pushing this idea relentlessly. By 2010, or by 2020, or until however long it takes.
May 5, 2009 - 9:55 pm 33. pharmaguy:I think I want my investments with that hedge fund guy CS Asness…
As a former employee of Chrysler back in the mid and late 70s it’s sad to see this proud company, whose mid levels back then were full of real car guys, sink so low. I hope some of the bond holders file suit and maybe delay this thuggery.
Let’s hope folks wake up quick. I have already seen the “Don’t Blame Me, I Voted for McCain/Palin” bumper sticker. Maybe the “Whatever was I Thinking??” and a BHO and a circle with slash will be seen soon.
May 5, 2009 - 9:55 pm 34. Annoy Mouse:‘lected leader for life and the legions of leftist ‘lectioneers. ACORN has the power because they have stolen the legitimacy of the office and they will not be giving it back any time soon.
FDR wouldn’t go away.
Truman went away.
Eisenhower went away.
JFK, well., went away.
LBJ went away.
Nixon went away.
Ford went away.
Carter wont go away.
Reagan went away.
Bush I went away.
Clinton is the gift that keeps on giving.
Bush II went away.
The leftier the less likely to go away.
Obama will be organizing his minions into the next several generations. It is going to be a long century.
May 5, 2009 - 10:00 pm 35. Lifeofthemind:Robohobo,
And this is from a lifelong Democrat!
One tactic the MoveOn Democrats and their media coconspirators abused was the testimonial condemning Bush that always started “I am a loyal lifelong Republican but…” It was so overdone and was so obviously fake that it became a running joke in the blogosphere. Since the purpose was to establish a trail that could be referred back to later when feeding a story to the rubes the ridicule it received from the initial audience was unimportant. The technique might have roots in the old Soviet trick of planting a story in the New York Times, caring only incidentally about the Americans who might be gullible enough to swallow it but knowing that the ability to point it out later in the Third World would be priceless. “You do not believe me Comrade? My source is The New York Times.” I expect that deception is not the case with Mr Card, who probably really exists, but the use of the line on our side does make it all the better.
The Census I believe is remaining under the Commerce Department but I have no confidence in how it will be conducted.
May 5, 2009 - 10:07 pm 36. Robohobo:Lotm:
Card is real. I have most of his books. He teaches at West Virginia U. He is a practicing Mormon. (I have many LDS members in my family tho’ I am not a member.) He is one smart guy and an astute observer of the nation and culture.
May 5, 2009 - 10:26 pm 37. Cowboy:Wow, the NYT is reporting that the White House is considering leaning on state bar associations to get Bush administration lawyers disbarred for torture opinions.
Wow.
Forget trials or due process, just “fix” them!
Remember that “chill wind” we were supposed to fear?
This amazes.
May 5, 2009 - 10:38 pm 38. Annoy Mouse:“Of course, as liberals move from the Rust Belt to the Sun Belt, …But this is not enough for the Democrats.
Remember, the Democratic Party is the one that tried to steal the 2000 presidential election“…
Most Democrats don’t refer to “liberals” and those “Democrats” in anything other than glowing and enlightened terms. I am a tad skeptical.
May 5, 2009 - 10:38 pm 39. geoffb:An American form of internal exile, financial rather than physical though the physical will follow de facto.
May 5, 2009 - 11:10 pm 40. Bob Murphy:Anyone else notice the similarities between what is happening to our auto makers and what happend to Leyland in the UK in the 60s?
It became a government owned workers paradise, quality control went to buggery, it acquired its former competitors, tore them down to its level, fell hopelessly behind foreign rivals in technology and eventually fell apart.
It made cars, trucks and buses that were REAL turkeys for years.
Today there are no Leyland buses, virtually no UK designed and built trucks and a dead car industry.
Leyland heavy vehicles got so poor they couldn’t even sell to their former colonies which were almost captive markets.
Idiots, and now we’re doing the same thing.
May 5, 2009 - 11:25 pm 41. JMH:With two major domestic auto manufacturers in thrall to unions, Ford will be faced with an insurmountable adversary the next time contract negotiations take place.
This is a quesiton I’ve been asking since these deals to give the UAW a big stake in GM and Chryler went public. How in the hell do you let a union with an ownership stake in one company represent workers in a competitor? If the DoJ Antitrust division doesn’t raise a stink about this, then there’s no point in having a DoJ Antitrust division.
Of course, they won’t raise a stink, because, as has been pointed out here, Obama is basically a thug and the UAW is part of his thug brigade.
I still pray that Habu is wrong, but that’s not the same as believing he is wrong. Every day with the Obamistration seems to be a step closer to proving Habu right. Any X-Files fans here? Remember the episode where Peter Boyle played an insurance salesman (Clyde Bruckman) who’s pshychic “gift” was to see how people would die? He hated it, made for a depressing life. I’m beging to understand how he felt.
May 6, 2009 - 12:19 am 42. twobyfour:Seen on the net:
HOW TO START EACH DAY WITH A POSITIVE OUTLOOK
[0. Empty the Recycle Bin]
May 6, 2009 - 12:37 am 43. twobyfour:1. Open a new file in your computer.
2. Name it ‘Barack Obama’.
3. Send it to the Recycle Bin.
4. Empty the Recycle Bin.
5. Your PC will ask you: ‘Are you sure you want to delete ‘Barack Obama’?
6. Firmly click ‘Yes.’
Arlen Sphincter got his butt kicked to the end of the line by his new friends, who categorically insisted on “seniority your ass!”. Instant karma!
May 6, 2009 - 1:01 am 44. Paul Anderson:I think the appropriate name for this organization post bankruptcy is: The Twentieth Century Motor Company.
Any bets on long it will be before the new UAW ownership schedules an annual meeting to divide the loot (oops, I mean “revenue”) according to need?
May 6, 2009 - 1:05 am 45. Doug:No Joke, Paul:
May 6, 2009 - 3:45 am 46. Doug:UAW ended up with 55%, but they are reportedly interested in selling that interest to fund their healthcare/pensions!
—
ACORN Could Be Eligible for $8.5 Billion This Year
Now He Has the Hammer
Barack Obama plays whack-a-mole with the wingnuts.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I’m currently working on yet another sequel to The Manchurian Candidate and I’ve come up with this crazy notion that, seven years after 9/11, the American people elected a man they had not even heard of a few years before, a man whose campaign was handled by a red-diaper baby, a man who was part Arab-African, the son of a Muslim, the circumstances of whose nativity are still unclear, whose college applications and transcripts have never been seen, who appears to have no friends from his days at Punahou, Occidental, Columbia, and Harvard. Heck, Hussein even went to Georgetown and made them cover up Jesus. And yet the enchanted Washington press corps finds Michelle’s bare arms and the Obamas’ new puppy — oddly enough, named BO — of far more journalistic interest. Talk about the dogs that don’t bark in the nighttime, the daytime, or any time!
Or, to put it another way, if BHO II actually were the nutbag Right’s worst nightmare, a crypto-Muslim Marxist bent on the destruction of the Principal Enemy, as our friends the Soviets used to call us, how would he act any different?
One of the things we progressives have long relied on is conservatives’ sheer stupidity. In your effort to reach across the aisle and find bipartisan compromise, you literally cannot credit the evidence of your own senses — which is that, basically, we hate you and everything your country used to stand for, and we intend to effect “fundamental change,” just as Obama promised during the campaign. The president has realized that as long as he and his teleprompter make soothing centrist noises, there is literally nothing he can’t get away with, even when it directly contradicts the words coming out of his mouth.
May 6, 2009 - 3:47 am 47. hdgreene:The Democrats are not bossing a business, they are bossing the entire nation.
The Auto bailouts illustrate what I call “Tinkle on” economics. Tinkle On is when the nations money, power, and capital gets gobbled up by the Capitol and digested by the political system. Then, after the nutritious values have largely been removed, it is excreted back onto the citizenry in the form of permission slips and patronage (mostly lavished on loyal political clients). This is The Democratic Congress “D.C.” Tinkle On Economics. Hiring lobbyists and renting politicians is like trying to buy an umbrella in a hurricane. At least the butt kissing sycophantic press corps is happy (sic ‘em)! And who thought that would ever happen?
May 6, 2009 - 4:08 am 48. JFSanders:“The unions will pour all their now tax payer backed resources into breaking the private ownership of Ford.”
If there is 1/10 of Henry Ford’s genes left in the Man now running the Ford Co. He will shutter the doors and go watch the ducks fly by his house on the lake. Or maybe better, he will sell the Co. with the proviso that the name be changed, to OMG. And then go watch the ducks fly by.
I already by Fords. But now it will be exclusively. Unless it would be a Honda for the wife.
Jim
May 6, 2009 - 4:15 am 49. Habu:40. JMH
Why am I so sure it will happen? Because Obama has never actually “worked” within the constitutional framework of a state or federal government. Has he ever submitted a bill that he initiated while a Senator?
All he knows is community organizing methods out of the Alinsky School of tearing down long established institutions and that’s what he’s going with….what he knows.
He voted present the entire time in the Ill. legislature and followed that with a similar act in the U.S. Senate (unless it was ultra liberal/Marxist).
It’s the best club in his bag and he’s striking the ball rather well …and crushing the Constitution.
Don’t ya just love the idea of ACORN and Farrakhan’s NOI being his “enforcers” domestically? Coming soon.
May 6, 2009 - 4:32 am 50. RWE:And he ain’t done yet.
Can’t have unions forced to report how they spend their dues money, can we?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124157604375290453.html
May 6, 2009 - 4:36 am 51. Doug:Don’t know where the notion that BHO is either Naive/stupid, or following a hidden agenda came from:
His agenda is spelled out by his actions for all to see:
Paying off his constituencies, whether the UAW, NEA, or ACORN.
Having no shame in supporting the NEA, even if it means eliminating the opportunity for poor DC children to attend the same school HIS girls do, he signed legislation which does just that.
In the Chryler Deal, his union supporters end up with 55% of the Company!
Nothing naive, stupid, or hidden about that!
—
AND:
– UAW Chief Says Union Will Sell Its Chrysler Stock
STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. — The United Auto Workers union has no intention of keeping its 55 percent stake in the new Chrysler and will sell the shares to fund a trust that will take over retiree health care costs next year, the union’s president said Monday.
May 6, 2009 - 4:37 am 52. Lifeofthemind:This morning’s news picture. Links avoided to keep out of moderation, please forgive the lengthy quotes.
Once the fish is hooked you keep him from paying the principle. He exists to cough up the vigorish.
It is inconceivable to me that all this lightening fast special handling to grease the system for Fiat by the Chicago crowd and European politicians could occur without massive corruption. What are the payoffs? The KGB used to insist that assets take money, even if the sums were small. A documented corrupt traitor was more reliable to them than an ideological enthusiast.
Kazakhastan pulling out underlines that the effort to create a Northern supply route for Afghanistan is probably unsustainable in the face of Russian or Chinese opposition.
Now for the Pièce de résistance
May 6, 2009 - 5:12 am 53. twobyfour:LotM,
The Chrysler deal… yea, think so too there is a substantial payola going on somewhere. Wealth redistribution as it were. Likely not the last.
May 6, 2009 - 5:41 am 54. anton:Not particularly a good feeling about it. Seems to be a precursor of other, more serious crap.
I guess the real question would be; Who will buy Chrysler stock? And at what price? How are you going to be sure the government won’t step in again and screw you?
I certainly wouldn’t invest cash, and I sure a heck wouldn’t be borrowing money to make the deal.
It is interesting that the UAW has no desire to own the stock. Mayhaps they have memories of the union takeover of McLouth Steel here in lovely Detroit. The company staggered along for a few years after it became an “employee owned corporation” and died an ugly death in 1995, at a time when steel demand was going up.
I have heard for years from UAW guys that the “management is the problem” yet they have no desire to run the company. Odd.
May 6, 2009 - 5:51 am 55. Tcobb:I guess the real question would be; Who will buy Chrysler stock? And at what price? How are you going to be sure the government won’t step in again and screw you?
My guess would be that our new nationalized banks will do it at the direction of the Dear Leader. Another possibility is that the law pertaining to 401(k)’s could be changed, requiring in the interest of the common man, that the investments be diversified among certain categories, one of which would be domestic automotive companies.
There’s a lot of wealth bound up in 401(k)’s. Don’t think the sharks haven’t noticed.
May 6, 2009 - 6:43 am 56. Cascajun:A year ago if someone had told me an Obama administration would nationalize the US banking and auto industry I would have laughed and asked them where I could buy my own tin foil hat.
May 6, 2009 - 6:53 am 57. Subotai Bahadur:Habu
Sorry to go OT, but I asked for your comments on something at #72 in the “Why should they worry?” thread, and you have not been back on that thread since. If you would, I would like your feedback. Thanks.
Subotai Bahadur
May 6, 2009 - 6:57 am 58. Richard Aubrey:I’d be surprised if many O supporters admitted, even to themselves, that they’d made a mistake.
May 6, 2009 - 7:03 am 59. Lifeofthemind:The problem is not that they will have to admit ignoring red flags. They’ll have to recall the vicious way they treated those on the other side.
To admit those others were actually right would be a huge emotional sacrifice, enormous in terms of self-image.
It is said that Stalin and Saddaam forced their supporters to do horrid things, like shooting other supporters. After that, the supporters had to convince themselves that Stalin–or whomever–were right, and so were they.
Otherwise…despair and suicide.
I see the O supporters having a much milder case of the same thing.
Given what they did in support of this guy, they can’t admit they were wrong.
Michigan is rapidly becoming the American Lebanon. There are four interest groups in play and three of them are acting against the interests of the nation. The majority of the state is still a productive blend of small and large communities populated by a mix of assimilating immigrants and the descendants of the settlers of the 19th century. Traditional midwestern culture is productive. The problem is in the confluence of the other forces. There are the coddled elites of the left wing university enclaves MSU in Lansing and UM in Ann Arbor and their satellites form a significant power bloc with about 100,000 students and associated faculty and other stakeholders. The Automobile and other industrialized industries are but a shadow of their former selves but were the crucible in which a dysfunctional proletarian subculture developed over decades. This being America marginalized racial minorities became caught up in the trap of high wage semiskilled factory labor. Now there are concentrated pockets around Detroit of several hundred thousand people with expectations completely divorced from what the market would offer them. Michigan is also home to a large and growing Islamic community, particularly around Dearborn. Which unlike earlier immigrants from the Middle East, who were largely Christian, show little sign of assimilating and who may interact with other groups to reinforce mutually radical elements.
May 6, 2009 - 7:12 am 60. NullificationNow:Richard Aubrey – When my ox is gored theory. He’s gonna make my car payment and mortgage payment, not happening, thus my ox has just been gored. There is no more anger than a welfare recipient being rejected by the system all hell breaks out. The maid ask, what’s all this tea party stuff, it’s about paying to much tax’s. Well then I’m for the tea party.
May 6, 2009 - 7:21 am 61. Mark:Wrichard writes: “Well now’s the time to for the uncowed and inquisitive to ask questions.” Like the old question, “Who sent him?”
Fiat, eh? There seem to be many players in the Obama drama who are quite practiced in making the kinds of offers that can’t be refused.
Now, let’s see, have any notable people in Chicago had dealings, recently and in the past, with crime organizations that have connections to Italy? Inquisitive minds might want to know, but they may want to think twice before asking. –signed, your friend in Chicago, F. Nitti
May 6, 2009 - 7:21 am 62. Lifeofthemind:Fiat has a Chicago ring to it.
May 6, 2009 - 7:26 am 63. Blindman:Fix It Again Tony.
CAFE standards
Nobody gets it. The government avian virus that oh so slowly killed the goose. On top of all that the unions securitized the golden egg. They were not aware enough back then to hedge the bird bond with CDS swaps.
Jenkins,WSJ, 5/6/09:”Chrysler would be in deep yogurt in any case amid the market collapse, but its other problem is a decent franchise in Jeeps, muscle cars, minivans and pickups — and nothing to meet Congress’s stiff new “corporate average” fuel economy rules, and nobody to supply the billions to develop such vehicles and (inevitably) bribe customers to drive them off the lots.”
They thought that in the end the politicians would just get rid of the CAFE standards. Viola! Chrysler returns to a profitable but smaller franchise, thank you very much.
Now back to Washington DC- CAFE standards or taxpayers’ dollars. You should replace the “madman theory of the presidency” with the “mad people theory of the left wing of the democratic party”. BHO can recycle the mantra of the new age-”we are willing to hold true to our ideals, even when it’s hard, not just when it’s easy.” …
Even the laggard knows to substitute expensive for hard and cheap for easy. The White house is gambling that the public won’t add the phrase as “long as we use other people’s money.”
May 6, 2009 - 7:42 am 64. Habu:Subotai Bahadur, please accept my apology for not responding earlier.
As I mentioned earlier on this thread I believe obama is playing with fire. DC isn’t Chicago and their are some very hard men in DC.
So as not to finesse the question out of existence, do I think obama is breaking the law with impunity and using physical threats against those who oppose his programs? YES..
I do not believe he is a legitimate US citizen, that his commitment to this country is shallow, born of no early life attachment to it. His early experience in observing governments were not even close to ours…they were thuggish.
He has 98% of the black community supporting him plus the backing of the Islamic world including I am confident AQ cells in this country. He probably has never come close to contact with them but you can bet the farm that he knows people who have..this would be a prime time for another Venona operation and in fact the NSA has the capability and most likely all the traffic from obama…they simply can’t play the card. It will have to be leaked, which it eventually will. But then what?
If he continues to have the Congress at his back who would challenge him? That leaves open rebellion as one avenue, and I understand that there appears to be a widening ,by the people, of the lanes of that avenue.
I had a favorite scenario that I thought he would play out earlier and that was obama enlarging SCOTUS to 23 judges and 3 Chief judges. All would be young (30’s)radical and left. That legacy would last for generations for they could piece by piece legally dismantle the Constitution. I still think he’ll try it, especially if he maintaines a supermajority in the Senate. He would position the dilation of the courts using the demographics angle which is reasonable.
YES, obama is a clear and present danger to this country.
May 6, 2009 - 7:46 am 65. Jrod:Jeeze this thread is so one-sided I wish somebody *coughBenj* would please set everybody straight.
May 6, 2009 - 7:49 am 66. Richard Aubrey:null
May 6, 2009 - 7:52 am 67. michael hoskins:Yeah, but they only voted for him, if that.
Problem is the larger movers, if only those who wrote letters to the editor, blogged smears of Palin, insisted that unsealing divorce decrees was perfectly okay, foreign money was not an issue, reneging on public financing didn’t happen and there’s nothing wrong with it.
And those who opposed O were morally evil ignoramuses.
Then there were the folks who thought Jon Stewart and SNL were actually straight news (”I can see Russia from my house.”)
Then we move up to journalists and writers….
Jrod @ 64. Invoking the Benj is not a good thing. He is so self absorbed and scattered that his “straighting out” efforts are…well…silly.
May 6, 2009 - 8:19 am 68. Jrod:michael hoskins–agreed and I did have reservations, but after reading #57 Richard Aubrey’s comment it got me to thinkin’ is all.
May 6, 2009 - 8:29 am 69. ash:Well, it seems the holdout creditors are not faring too well with their “Rule of Law” arguments in front of a judge who actually gets to rule on law (h/t balloon-juice):
“The judge overseeing the bankruptcy of Chrysler on Tuesday took a significant step toward allowing the sale of most of the automaker to Fiat, approving the bidding procedures advocated by the company and backed by the Obama administration.
The decision by the federal bankruptcy judge, Arthur J. Gonzalez, is a setback for a group of Chrysler creditors who have argued that liquidation of the company or some other transaction could yield greater value. These lenders, primarily investment firms, have said that the plan for the Fiat transaction ran afoul of bankruptcy law and would chill efforts by others to produce competing, potentially higher bids.
But Judge Gonzalez disagreed, saying, “The court concludes that the bidding procedures are appropriate and necessary.”
The judge’s decision was a victory for Chrysler and the government, which together argued that a speedy sale was the only way to protect tens of thousands of jobs and help along the American economy.
“It’s a very big first step,” said Howard Seife, the head of the bankruptcy practice at the law firm Chadbourne & Parke. “It’s clear that the company is moving down the road to a Fiat sale.”
The judge’s decision was the second blow dealt to the holdout lenders during a marathon hearing on Tuesday that began mid-afternoon and ended at 11 p.m.
Judge Gonzalez earlier ordered the disclosure of identities of the Chrysler creditors, who had said making them public could lead to retaliation. A lawyer representing them claimed that the creditors had been harassed, and some had even received death threats.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/06/business/06auto.html?_r=1&hp
May 6, 2009 - 8:42 am 70. Jrod:Having owned both Italian (fickle, temperamental) and German (will run 300km with a hole in the crank case) motorcycles, I fail to see what sort of synergies Fiat thinks they can realize with Chrysler that the Germans could not; I mean other than getting free money from the Canadian and US governments.
May 6, 2009 - 9:11 am 71. twobyfour:Jrod/69
Right. It is rather odd and makes little sense.
Free money is icing on the cake. Otherwise it is smoke and mirrors. I suspect that it involves something that in other circumstances would be called money laundering op. Question is for what purpose?
May 6, 2009 - 9:26 am 72. ash:sheesh, get the tin-foil out, “money laundering”
“MARCHIONNE’S VISION FOR FIAT AND GM EUROPE
May 5, 2009
Fiat chief executive officer Sergio Marchionne is trying to put together an automotive empire that combines the Italian group’s core car business with the European operations of General Motors.
Including Fiat’s planned takeover of U.S. car maker Chrysler, the combined group would be the world’s second-largest auto maker with about €80-billion ($106.3-billion) in revenue and annual sales of six to seven million units.
Here is how Fiat and GM Europe line up:”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090505.RAUTOSIDE05ART1939/TPStory/?query=fiat
”
ERIC REGULY
From Monday’s Globe and Mail
* E-mail Eric Reguly
* | Read Bio
* | Latest Columns
May 4, 2009 at 7:15 AM EDT
ROME — ereguly@globeandmailcom
When Fiat boss Sergio Marchionne predicted late last year that only six big auto makers would survive, he was treated as a doomsday prophet, an alarmist, even though he was stating the obvious.
The industry sucks, he said. Too many car companies are chasing too few customers. Car development costs are about to go from the painful to the outrageous as fuel economy requirements rise, as governments slap tight controls on carbon dioxide emissions and as spoilt, fickle customers demand the best in performance, safety and style.
Mergers designed to save fortunes in development and procurement costs and open up new markets are the only solution, he said. Mr. Marchionne, thanks to Mr. Marchionne, has so far been proved right. Last week, he sealed a deal to form a transatlantic partnership with Chrysler. Last night, he confirmed that his next target is Opel, the effectively bankrupt German subsidiary of effectively bankrupt General Motors.
The Fiat-Chrysler-Opel combo would operate as a separate, publicly traded company and produce more than six million autos a year – as much as Volkswagen and second only to Toyota – the minimum output required to avoid road kill status, according to the Italian-Canadian fix-it artist. On its own, Fiat produces 2.2 million cars.
But a single three-way merger does not a trend make, and there are no immediate signs that, Opel aside, another car company will duly conform to Mr. Marchionne’s merger mania theory. Could he be wrong?”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090504.wrreguly04art1939/BNStory/Business/
May 6, 2009 - 9:32 am 73. michael hoskins:@70. Yep, follow the money. One might also note that the UAW already has experience with German management. Italian labor relations are a different thing…can you say “Red Brigade”?
May 6, 2009 - 10:38 am 74. oMan:Not many choices here, folks. The fix is in. Unions will run Chrysler, and run it badly, and drain the taxpayers for big bucks for years. Seems to me the available choices are: vote with ballots and vote with bucks. (A) Vote with ballots: throw the authors of this mess out of office as soon as possible and then privatize it. If it succeeds on its own dime, good show. If it fails, let it go through the purgative fires of bankruptcy. (There might be a few criminal prosecutions for embezzlement and the like, along the way? One can hope). (B) Vote with bucks: don’t buy what they make. Even if by some chance it is otherwise competitive. Because it’s not: it contains a hidden subsidy. It is in a sense “stolen goods,” built with assets from which investors’ claims were wrongly stripped. Never mind the moral dividend of boycott, one also avoids the likely shaky build quality and heavy reliance on the Obama Warranty (as honorable as all his promises!). And the loss of one’s custom hastens the day when bankruptcy can restore a little justice to this atrocity.
May 6, 2009 - 11:01 am 75. michael hoskins:@ 72. Agree. For the record, I am carefully avoiding both GM and Chrysler, including any and all subsidiaries I can identify.
I would announce same on T-shirts etc. but as Habu said the other day, I have a living to make, a family to feed…and I work in the District of Corruption.
May 6, 2009 - 11:25 am 76. buddy larsen:“…justice to this atrocity”
Which one? The unions and congress/greens destroying the car companies, the Democrats destroying the economy, the administration destroying the banks, or the mob busting out the equity-holders?
May 6, 2009 - 11:25 am 77. Annoy Mouse:“I fail to see what sort of synergies Fiat thinks they can realize with Chrysler that the Germans could not”
The original Chrysler bailout was in the middle of a totally different economic dynamic. It was the reckoning after the 1974ish oil embargo for the big three that put the kibosh on the muscle cars of the time and labor issues and seemed to blend with cheap plastic to produce a mediocre product. This was in the days when the big three meant something.
Why Fiat?; not sure but maybe because Fiat makes small, reasonably priced, fuel efficient cars that it fits in with the administrations goals of producing a low-carbon foot print vehicle. And remember, there is a precedent for the government to develop new cars, though usually by starting a new company;
A Car for the People
“Adolf Hitler had a keen interest in cars even though he did not like to drive. In 1933, shortly after taking over as leader of Germany, he teamed up with Ferdinand Porsche to make changes to his original 1931 design to make it more suited for the working man, thus founding Volkswagen.” (wiki/Volkswagen)
“In January 2002, Gaddafi purchased a 7.5% share of Italian football club Juventus for USD 21 million, through Lafico (”Libyan Arab Foreign Investment Company”). This followed a long-standing association with the Italian industrialist Gianni Agnelli and car manufacturer Fiat.” (wiki/Moammar_Gadhafi)
Once upon a time Moammar Kadafi decided to build the Islamic car, I don’t recall exactly how this turned out. The fact is a lot of tyrants start automobile companies.
May 6, 2009 - 11:49 am 78. twobyfour:Annoy Mouse/75
A strawman…. that 0 is involved in automobile company does not mean he’s tyrant.
Wait….
[tongue firmly in cheek]
May 6, 2009 - 11:58 am 79. ash:buddy, you seem to be blaming everyone but the car companies themselves. Don’t you think they are at least somewhat culpable for the predicament they find themselves in? I mean, who negotiated those contracts with the unions, who allowed the management rot to grow, who propagated such a byzantine dealer network, who designed their current breed of car?
You lend money to corpses and you take your chances…seems to me the whining is part of the game…
Isn’t it somewhat poetic justice the employees are gonna be the majority owners? Good luck with that business boys and girls.
May 6, 2009 - 12:06 pm 80. Annoy Mouse:Lada
“The common Lada sedan/estate, sometimes known as the Classic in the west (Signet in Canada), was partly based on the 1966 Fiat 124 sedan, and has become one of the most successful cars in history. The keys to its success were: competitive price as an export, simple DIY friendly mechanics, unpretentious functionality, and lack of competition on its USSR home market” (wiki/Lada)
“The Perla is the first model jointly designed by Fiat and Nanjing Fiat Automobile, a joint venture established by Fiat and Nanjing Automobile Group in 1999. Nanjing Fiat will also be the manufacturing plant for the new model, and 90 percent of the Perla’s components will be sourced in China.” (edmunds)
We are a perfect fit for state partnership with Fiat, no comrade?
May 6, 2009 - 12:07 pm 81. Jrod:Annoy Mouse–thanks for your thoughts. With any luck, Chrysler/Fiat will be turning out Yugos. Now that’s synergy. Yugos for Utopia! I can see the billboards now.
May 6, 2009 - 1:04 pm 82. buddy larsen:you’re right, ash –add ‘em in –
May 6, 2009 - 1:16 pm 83. buddy larsen:“See The USA, In A Yugo, Hey!”
May 6, 2009 - 1:18 pm 84. ash:From my #71 post which seems to be still waiting on moderator approval:
“ERIC REGULY
From Monday’s Globe and Mail
When Fiat boss Sergio Marchionne predicted late last year that only six big auto makers would survive, he was treated as a doomsday prophet, an alarmist, even though he was stating the obvious.
The industry sucks, he said. Too many car companies are chasing too few customers. Car development costs are about to go from the painful to the outrageous as fuel economy requirements rise, as governments slap tight controls on carbon dioxide emissions and as spoilt, fickle customers demand the best in performance, safety and style.
Mergers designed to save fortunes in development and procurement costs and open up new markets are the only solution, he said. Mr. Marchionne, thanks to Mr. Marchionne, has so far been proved right. Last week, he sealed a deal to form a transatlantic partnership with Chrysler. Last night, he confirmed that his next target is Opel, the effectively bankrupt German subsidiary of effectively bankrupt General Motors.
The Fiat-Chrysler-Opel combo would operate as a separate, publicly traded company and produce more than six million autos a year – as much as Volkswagen and second only to Toyota – the minimum output required to avoid road kill status, according to the Italian-Canadian fix-it artist. On its own, Fiat produces 2.2 million cars.
But a single three-way merger does not a trend make, and there are no immediate signs that, Opel aside, another car company will duly conform to Mr. Marchionne’s merger mania theory. Could he be wrong?””
May 6, 2009 - 1:20 pm 85. buddy larsen:four models, the Igo Coupe, the Yugo sedan, the Wego Wagon, and the Theygo Limo.
May 6, 2009 - 1:23 pm 86. oMan:Buddy @83: excellent, you are hereby elected Vice President of Model Names. May I suggest, for the high-performance line (stripes, scary spoilers and an EPA-approved 2 hp upgrade), that you call them the “Gottago” models?
What a pathetic playpen the government is constructing for the driving public.
May 6, 2009 - 1:36 pm 87. njartist:Annoy Mouse @75 & 78
May 6, 2009 - 1:53 pm 88. blert:You just told us that Fiat has deals with Moammar Kadafi and China; you have just told us why the Usurper chose Fiat. Nothing certain but two points do make a line.
The fundamental problem is that the world wide auto industry ( ex-China & ex-India ) has been actuarially defeated.
The same phenomenon afflicted other classic heavy industries. As employment recedes the lagging pension overhead ( the entities ‘cash-flowed’ their pensions or fatally self-invested pension retentions ) compounds away against the active workforce, union and management.
Here’s the math for the typical unionized mega-manufacturer:
Circa 1950 troop count = 1,000,000
Pensions (typ. injury related) = 50,000
Circa 1960 troop count = 950,000
Pensions = 100,000
Circa 1970 troop count = 850,000
Pensions = 200,000
Circa 1980 troop count = 650,000
Pensions = 350,000
Sales lost to imports; investment returns terrible.
Cash flow burden to pensions really bites in.
Circa 1990 troop count = 450,000
Pensions = 500,000
Circa 1992 Barrons publishes article by CPA-Actuary detailing the horrific trend noted here; predicts inevitable collapse of the Big Three within a generation no matter what they do.
Circa 2000 troop count = 300,000
Pensions = 700,000
Man-hours are being stripped out of assembly as robots displace union workers time and again. This capital investment generates ever more early retirees. Medical expenses for the pension fund sail out of sight. Massive imports from nations with a younger demographic can’t be held off.
Circa 2005 troop count = 200,000
Pensions = 850,000
The industry is being run for the retirees, union and management. Demand is pulled forward from the future by zero cost credit. Management is in the death grip of no-cut contracts. To lay-off the line workers produces virtually no savings at all. The imputed pension overhead per man-hour is now pricing the product out of the market. Only American exclusive product lines can be sold for a profit. The Big Three are now niche producers in their home market.
In the NOW: the industry’s business model has collapsed. It will now be Obamafied.
End state: Detroit cedes the auto industry.
The UAW folds into AFSCME as the troops are placed on various State and Municipal payrolls.
May 6, 2009 - 2:03 pm 89. buddy larsen:oMan, oh man, are you ever right –just over the horizon, some way to force us into these products of mngmnt/labor/gov’t incest. The Asian & Euro models are gonna be pulling away so fast that we will surely see tariffs or punitive regs somehow applied –to domestic open-shop plants too. wait, the trial balloons’ll be floating by Labor Day.
…and the do-it-yourself home assembly model comes, parts in a box, the new “Yugo Screw Yourself”.
May 6, 2009 - 2:07 pm 90. buckets:ash,
I believe the Judge ruled on the 363(f) sale, and whether it should go forward or not. Most of these sales go forward despite creditor objections. 363(f) sales are basically liquidation sales of the entity, without having to go through the complicated re-organization process. So even though this is being called a Ch. 11 re-organization, if the 363(f) sale happens there really won’t be an actual re-organization.
While 363(f) sales don’t require the approval or votes of dissenting creditors, it does require “good faith” by proponents of the sale. I don’t know the specifics of the Judge’s ruling, but its pretty clear that the “smoke-filled room” collusion between the Obama administration and other interested creditors is strong evidence of bad faith. Especially given that many of the voters like JP Morgan were/still are receiving gov’t money, the whole thing stinks like hell.
This 363(f) sale is being done without dissenting creditor approval. If, instead, the court had denied the 363(f) request to sell, Chrysler would actually have to put together a re-organization plan, which would then need to be voted on by all creditors. Given that JP Morgan and other TARP recipients are basically in the government’s pocket, it’s possible that their votes would not be counted at confirmation. If the TARP whores’ votes weren’t counted, the dissenting creditors could actually de-rail Obama’s plan.
The egregious “bad faith” part of the whole thing is that the Obama plan absolutely screws secured lienholders at the expense of the unsecured UAW; the secured creditors would almost certainly get more in a BK than they will with the 363(f) sale. What’s more, this whole 363 sale is being done to prevent the dissenting secured creditors from being able to meaningfully vote on the Obama plan. And if moonbats have no problem with the Executive Branch colluding with favored interest groups to make private companies “offers they can’t refuse” by threatening future discriminatory action, investigations, IRS audits, harrassment, etc… then liberty is fighting a losing battle.
Despite what the moonbat blogs are trumpeting, this whole thing reeks of “bad faith” and collusion: because most of the “votes” for a Ch. 11 plan confirmation are controlled by entities who have gotten TARP and bailout money, they are not disinterested and will vote for the gov’t plan with a wink and smile. There is ample Court of Appeals case law saying this collusion shouldn’t be condoned by BK courts, as it operates as an “end run” around bankruptcy law to screw certain non-compliant creditors.
I may not be correct with my understanding of the process, but Ash certainly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. This guy does know what he’s talking about:
May 6, 2009 - 2:17 pm 91. ash:http://www.bankruptcylitigationblog.com/archives/bankruptcy-in-the-news-chrysler-bankruptcy-analysis-part-iii-will-the-absolute-priority-rule-kill-the-sale.html
blert, the big political question is do you just let it implode now or try to patch the sucker up (government helped mergers)? The current climate (Bush too) seems to propel the politicos to try save everything. Unfortunately I think the invisible hand will (eventually) have the final say.
May 6, 2009 - 2:17 pm 92. ash:well, buckets, it is in the courts and they rule on law. Your points about the TARP influenced players is true but, no matter what happens, the conflict applies. Does it constitute bad faith to upset the legal apple cart? I’m sure the lawyers will argue that, and, the judge will rule. Rule of Law, no?
May 6, 2009 - 2:20 pm 93. ash:of course, the judge will rule, and appeals can be filed. Still, Rule of Law.
May 6, 2009 - 2:21 pm 94. Stan:Blert: excellant! And how close does that progression track to Western European Industry on the aggragate? Indeed, how close does our(US)progression lag behind Europe in terms of Soc Sec and workers compared to beneficiaries.
Separately that demographic analysis has been applied to China and Japan with chilling conclusions. At least they have a legacy of respecting their elders… in our culture – not so much. With so much of healthcare exp in the last months of life and the gov’t rationing healthcare it won’t be a good time to be old.
May 6, 2009 - 2:35 pm 95. Stan:Will these previously owned cars be called
May 6, 2009 - 2:51 pm 96. Armeggedon Rex:“used togo’s” ?
Stan #92
Paging Logan’s Run….
Doctor Logan’s Run, Please call the Treasury Department…
Socialized “health care” is just around the corner.
They’re not even trying to hide their plan….
Doctor assisted suicide is a human right, didn’t you know?
May 6, 2009 - 3:03 pm 97. Annoy Mouse:May I submit the “S” car.
See the s-car-go, but don’t step in it.
May 6, 2009 - 3:07 pm 98. jr:My comment about,Obama’s (wether he said it or not He is just another person that came from tv radio,computer,paper)I dont really know him,Is that his encougment of (fighting)the taliban al-quada will lead to more violence(JIGSAW) our forces have killed over 10,000 al-quada members (If the news tells the truth)You guys know what i mean(SEE A CORPSE)There never was a tusanmi (someone lied)(120,000 dead was a scam) anyways.I am against violence and do not support fighting.We need to bring them to trail. and hear there side .How about the earthquaqe in bam Iran (it never happened no one died)
May 6, 2009 - 3:08 pm 99. blert:Chrysler needs to go through Chapter Seven.
Her only winners are Jeeps and Ram pick-ups.
Her autos are nice, but not money spinners.
Chrysler needs to trim her dealer network.
Oddly enough, the viable pieces of Chrysler would be good fits for Toyota or Honda. Their sticking point would obviously be the UAW contract.
Holding Chrysler up for air can only mean that GM and Ford take a beating.
So the best outcome might well be just to break up Chrysler.
The FIAT deal doesn’t pass the smell test. Lashing two cripples together does not make for a strong swimmer.
In all of this never forget that Toyota, Nissan and Honda are bleeding like stuck pigs, too!
BTW, Nissan was saved from bankruptcy be the Japanese and French governments.
Mitsubishi Motors would be belly up without its parent, it has lost money for years and years.
If these two had stopped exports, things might be different for Detroit. (The Renault-Nissan axis has been particularly effective against Detroit.)
May 6, 2009 - 3:16 pm 100. Annoy Mouse:The whole idea of a service based economy reeked to me 29 years ago when I read Megatrends by John Naisbitt. But there were stranger economic factors too. Recently I was schooled on the FIRE economy at the club. All new stuff to me. And now the strangest trend of all. We are a nation of 300 million people and our economy is largely driven by crappy low end service jobs selling foreign goods on one end and buying houses every few years and brand new cars every year on credit. I wondered how so many people could be induced to buy a car for a significant portion of their income and lose half of its value driving it home. Einstein apocryphally noted that “interest was the most powerful force in the universe.”
But I must admit, I am a bit odd, a conservative who likes riding bicycles and public transportation.
May 6, 2009 - 3:23 pm 101. buddy larsen:compound interest…said Einstein. Someone said a dime @ 5% 2000 years ago would be worth greater than the planet’s weight in gold. I have’t checked this out –could be from gold’s cheaper era –
May 6, 2009 - 3:40 pm 102. jr:Also I know that the playstion 3 Started a fight between my boys. wal-mart brought needful thing.
May 6, 2009 - 3:40 pm 103. Captain Ramen:I too grow tired with the ‘it’s all the UAW’s fault!’ Capital and Management couldn’t stand up to them? Did the UAW force GM to sink money into the GM Volt?
Reagan once said ‘There is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don’t care who gets the credit.’ The inverse is also true… you can’t get anything done if all you care about is who gets the blame.
May 6, 2009 - 3:50 pm 104. Captain Ramen:Annoy Mouse @98,
The situation will rectify itself eventually. The dollar will come down. Our manufactured exports will become competitive again. The only question is: will the transition will be orderly or chaotic?
May 6, 2009 - 3:57 pm 105. noprisoners:Captain Ramen @ #102:
Fearfully, I vote for chaotic as the most likely outcome. I, in my 59 years on this earth, have never seen the tension between interest groups this high. I don’t know where the tipping point is; but, I fear it is closer than we want to believe.
May 6, 2009 - 4:07 pm 106. oMan:Blert (@86): you nailed it. No arguing with demographics. But does this represent an implosion that precludes the rise of a new US auto biz? Can we not apply new (as in game-changing) technologies of design, manufacture, power train, control systems; plus eager new generation (I hope they are there, if not nothing will work…) to start over with PTU’s (personal transport units) that avoid the overhead and accreted mistakes and CYA and regulatory reactive patch jobs etc that afflict the current crop of automakers? Don’t just try to fix a K-car chassis with a painfully Eco-emasculated gas engine; give me a carbon-fiber skateboard with a lithium-ion/diesel generator hybrid. Don’t assume I will throw it away after 3 or 4 years, partner with me to support it for 25 years with 99% recycling at end of service life.
I overstate the contrast to make the point: that the system doesn’t go to zero, it re-sets. Some kind of Phoenix comes out of the ashes.
Doesn’t it? (or is that optimistic cast of thought just ’cause I’m an American?).
May 6, 2009 - 4:40 pm 107. veracious:Back to Stan.9 XOR Habu.25,
Habu has it, Stan. 0bama does the Alinsky play with a double down on chaos. The more chaos the better. It doesn’t matter what the final cost is to Chrysler, to USA to the bankers, he _is_ going to change the system as we know it.
I see a brand new politik, where momentum is everything; smashing through every norm is pivotal to destroying key components within the enemy. The outcome is _guaranteed_ to be a alteration of the entire system. No man made system, esp. large ones can exist without solid foundations. Foundational components are being smashed, with a vengance; as fast as possible. As the mighty system stumbles, he’ll smash it again. The more chaos he introduces, the more legitamite he is appears for stepping in, supposedly to address the problem, but actually to smash another supporting stone. This is a rolling stone leading to an avalanche.
May 6, 2009 - 4:47 pm 108. Annoy Mouse:CR – ” The situation will rectify itself eventually. The dollar will come down. Our manufactured exports will become competitive again.”
Maybe so but I wonder how it might be that we go from buying cheap, non-union stuff from Walmart to building our own televisions and toasters again. This offset by million dollar homes, million dollar educations, million dollar health care and one hundred thousand dollar cars. I think after being terrorized by their own government in the panic of September ‘08, a lot more people are going to be looking at getting off the grid, off the gravy train, and off of the merry-go-round. A micro, carry your wealth with you, I-Pod and mobile phone wandering, sleeping in the park itinerant work force looking for soup kitchens and handouts where the less productive are perfectly ready to take by force of numbers their sup. Those who planned ahead have a nice view…. down a long arm protecting theirs. Not me mind you, I’ll be too busy paying my house down to its worth circa 1976 and have spent my whole life working and know no other way.
May 6, 2009 - 4:54 pm 109. oMan:Veracious @ 105: scary. Why do I have such trouble objecting to your characterization? What kind of weird animal magnetism, what combination of beyond-audacious BS and I-can’t-believe-he-said/did-that system confounding behaviors, what set of Alinsky-trained instincts and what cadre of well-rehearsed fellow wreckers, is enabling what we see? Simply unbelievable. Yet true.
May 6, 2009 - 4:54 pm 110. Annoy Mouse:Veracious – It will go down all the more smooth once the first structural earthquakes show some success. This can only be achieved when the trickle down comes in torrents to the dispossessed, the so called disenfranchised, and the One must deliver big here or there will be only Chaos though I think the seeds of destruction were already sown when we devalued work and elevated unscrupulous scheming by a clever academics so many years ago. Theys gots MBA’s theys gots to be smart.
May 6, 2009 - 5:00 pm 111. oMan:Annoy Mouse @106: “I’ll be too busy paying my house down to its worth circa 1976 and have spent my whole life working and know no other way.” This is unintentional poetry. From the heart.
Thanks. Take care.
May 6, 2009 - 5:05 pm 112. buddy larsen:veracious is right –there’s been at least three major layers of this gov’t creating a condition or a problem that then indeed DOES for a FACT require extreme gov’t intervention, or else the system crashes. “mark-to-market” –still barely tinkered, mainly only in the atmospherics –is in the first layer, tho not repeat not in the front edge of it.
This latest, first of all, TARP doesn’t even ALLOW car company intervention –the text of the law specifically applies it ONLY to financial institutions –the ’special’ sector bec so much flows from it.
Secondarily, one could make the case, strictly on the facts, that since the payments to VEBA and ERISA match at 10bb apiece with the dissolution of equity value, the gov’t has just used Chrylser to transfer 10bb from equity property owners to union pension funds.
When the gov’t, there to enforce the Constitution, does the same sort of end run as say a good Genovese law firm would do, then there’s nobdy left to protect the United States in its iteration as the Constitution.
This is new ground, folks –and bad, real, real bad. You’re in the third world, baby –that’s what makes the diff –if the law is always up for grabs or for sale, that’s it, the end of America in its traditional being.
May 6, 2009 - 5:09 pm 113. veracious:The same agents of Chaos, will likely find his _solutions_ from the Presidency, now rippling around the globe, can _only_ be delt with by him again. Making him Secratary General of UN, with new emergency powers granted for never before seen global chaos.
[Agents of Chaos, harkens back to the Get Smart show. This interesting joinder brought me smiles within, over the past few days.]
May 6, 2009 - 5:09 pm 114. Damon:I think many commentors here are ignorant about Fiat and its current cars. Fiat is making good profits again, and good cars. The last experience the USA had with Fiat was more than 20 years ago. It is true that in the past Fiat made has cars with either poor design, poor construction (or in a few infamous cases, both…), particularly in the ’70s.
However, the current range is as good as anything in the matching price range.
I have an Alfa Romeo 147 (part of Fiat, uses a common platform with Fiat models), and its quality is as good as any other car I’ve owned.
However, I fully understand the criticism about how many Americans will buy Fiats (notice I didn’t say “Will Americans buy Fiats?”, but “How many Americans will buy Fiats?”)
Just some thoughts…
May 6, 2009 - 5:12 pm 115. buddy larsen:Don’t forget maxwell smart’s tag line, “Missed it by THAT much….”
May 6, 2009 - 5:17 pm 116. Annoy Mouse:Sorry about that chief!
May 6, 2009 - 5:35 pm 117. buddy larsen:LOL
May 6, 2009 - 5:40 pm 118. heyyoukidsgetoffmylawn:“Uh. gee, sorry…hope I wasn’t out of line.”
May 6, 2009 - 6:27 pm 119. maman:111 veracious @5:09pm
That would be your Prez as Sec Gen UN AFTER our Aus PM (K Rudd) has made the position his own!
Rudd, when asked on ABC Local radio 774 this past week, whether he had aspirations to the UN, calmly said he was focused on the current crisis – and then giggled hysterically! It was Beautiful!!
Your man will just have to wait in line.
ps All Aus Embassies have copies of Rudds diatribe in “The Monthly” 02/09 magazine – if you are interested in collecting a souvenir
May 6, 2009 - 7:04 pm 120. Old Soldier:http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/index.htm?postversion=2009050603
We just got taken for $7.2 Billion.
May 6, 2009 - 7:27 pm 121. buddy larsen:old soldier, that’s just the public side. The investors and lenders, many of whom are the ‘little people’ retirement fund participants (aka widows and orphans), just got robbed of an even greater amount, not even discounting foregone future income streams, usually counted upon for living expenses in retirement.
May 6, 2009 - 7:38 pm 122. Doug:Always did suspect them widows and orphans.
Now our president has confirmed that they are nothing more than greedy ingrates.
—
Mexico’s Bigger Problem
Gregor Macdonald
Reluctantly I’m going to briefly cover Mexico today. Your RSS newsreader and your Bloomberg however are already, no doubt, filled up with reports from Mexico’s Flu Zone. Or Quake Zone. Or both. Instead, I lightly suggest you turn your attention away from these acute conditions, to something more chronic:
the relentless crash in Mexico’s oil production.
It is nothing less than astonishing that Mexico’s oil production collapse is not one of the biggest stories of the decade, especially for the United States.
The trajectory here is on pace to take Mexico’s output from 3.4 Mb/day as recently as early 2005, to 2.4 Mb/day perhaps as soon as this Fall.
That is not only a huge percentage for Mexico, but it’s a large percentage of total North American supply.
May 6, 2009 - 7:52 pm 123. Doug:If you believe as I do that geography is going to reassert itself in the years ahead, these declines are fated to unleash an even greater impact.
Are You an Obama Winner Or an Obama Loser
The Chrysler Bankruptcy Pt. 1:
From the Rule of Law to the Rule of Politics
Winners: The United Auto Workers
Loser: The Rule of Law
Bankruptcy was once a legal process in which an insolvent company, an impartial judge and creditors voting in good faith worked together to make the best of a bad situation.
Under the Obama Administration, the Chrysler bankruptcy has become a political process in which government has bought off some creditors, demonized others, and predetermined a favorable result for an important political constituency.
What happened last week with Chrysler was an unprecedented case of executive branch involvement in a bankruptcy proceeding. The Obama Administration bullied smaller investors to fall in line with TARP-funded creditors in a deal that ultimately benefited the union bosses who bear so much of the responsibility for Chrysler’s downfall to begin with. In the end, the losers weren’t just the secured creditors and the taxpayers who have footed the bill for all these bailouts, but the rule of law itself.
The Chrysler Bankruptcy Pt. 2:
America, Get Ready for the “Model O”
Winners: The People Who Are Evading Responsibility for Chrysler’s Bankruptcy
Losers: Consumers Who Want to Buy Good American Cars
The end result of the rigged Chrysler bankruptcy is that two political entities whose priority is winning votes (the Federal Government and the UAW) now have majority ownership of a commercial entity whose priority should be making good cars.
Cap and Trade:
Punishing Americans With High Energy Taxes
Winners: Government Favored “Green Industries”
Losers: Anyone Who Heats a Home, Drives a Car or Has a Job
Closing Gitmo:
Terrorists from Guantanamo Coming Soon to a Neighborhood Near You
Winners: Terrorists and Anti-Americanism Worldwide
Losers: The New Neighbors of Terrorists and The American Tax-Payers
Picking a New Supreme Court Justice:
Playing Favorites Through the Courts
Winners: Anyone the President Deems Deserving of Judicial “Empathy”
Losers: Everyone Else
Demonizing Wall Street:
Putting Talent and Resources Where Washington Wants Them
Winners: Professional “Community Organizers” and Other Government Activists
Losers: Young Americans Who Want to Chose Their Own Careers
- Gingrich
May 6, 2009 - 8:04 pm 124. twobyfour:Damon/112
Everything’s fiat noawadays it seems. Currency and rule by, sure… why not cars?
May 6, 2009 - 8:17 pm 125. Doug:German Opel folks say new partners products will acquire Fiat Quality Control.
May 6, 2009 - 8:38 pm 126. Habu:105. veracious
Yep, exactly. The amazing thing about it is that he told us this was what he was going to do..change…and if anybody took a serious look at his skill sets it was obvious he was going to use the only thing he knew….Alinsky, a philosophy of destruction and more destruction.
I can’t even actually find in Alinsky the old Hegelian thesis, antithesis, synthesis paradigm. It’s all just destruction and then make up the rules later..no set antithesis in mind and thus obviously no thesis recognizable within our existing republican form of government. Just the destruction of the existing order. It’s a great concept for destruction but not terribly healthy for a modern society that simply needs tweaking so it can continue getting better.
When I say obama is a clear and present danger to this country it isn’t just a catch phrase. He is every bit as dangerous as any enemy we’ve ever faced. And it’s going to get worse.
May 6, 2009 - 8:49 pm 127. Habu:Alinsky Rule #3
3. Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear and retreat.
Well, the US culture and institutions are obamas enemy. That is why his opposition is so entirely flummoxed on dealing with him. The “traditional” politician knows the lubricant of our system is the give and take of ideas in order to develop a proper workable model for THE TIMES AT HAND. Alinsky claims to want a model, rule 12. The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. But notice it’s a “price” paid for the attack which is counterintuitive to all the other rules which are centered around destruction…now all his “never letting a crisis go to waste” is manifesting itself in simply printing money with no forethought other than it might do some good. Well, it’s wrecked us so his destruction exists even in his Alinsky “constructive alternative”. It’s insane.
May 6, 2009 - 9:05 pm 128. Doug:Habu,
May 6, 2009 - 9:20 pm 129. JJRedFan:I was impressed in the 70’s of the New Left’s effectiveness, and blown away by their creativity.
Little did I know that the “creativity” came from a textbook, one that they, Hillary, BHO and others immediately recognized as the pathway for taking their personal pathologies out on the World.
What a Devilish Masterpiece.
Friend of mine who teaches at a certain Christian School in Tulsa told me a number of other people on faculty told him they wanted O to win the election. (Hey, I’m a Christian, but unlike some, my idea of witnessing does not involve grabbing people by the lapels and lecturing them with Scripture.)
On one hand, that information reminds us that those Christian universities are NOT necessarily places where Christian robots parade around in lockstep, enforcing the weekly plan for proper Christian thought and speech.
On the other hand – WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?????
I can imagine — I mean I KNOW some people whose faith tells them it’s wrong to wage war, and proper to give alms to the poor – Christ did more than die to save the World; His every act and breath and thought was in service to those around him, to show us a way to live to become what God means for us to be.
Yes. That really grabs me, the more I think on it.
But the exhortation “turn the other cheek” means that ==> I <== may do that as MY choice. It doesn’t mean I’m supposed to stand idle and let someone rape my daughter or my neighbor. That tells me it’s not wrong to send armed troops to wage war against terrorists, pirates, and other international criminals.
So it’s really weird to me that Christians teaching in a private Christian school could convince themselves their country and their schools would be IMPROVED by the attentions of a Marxist ideologue whose only employment has been either mobilizing action in economically-depressed communities, warming a bench in the Illinois State Legislator, or campaigning for the Presidency.
Well, not too many years back the World Council of Churches was funneling money to Communist guerilla groups in Central America – Liberation Theology seems to appeal to some Christians who turn a blind eye to the vicious behavior of the atheists their money supports.
Just goes to show – you can find idiots and Morons in any group whatsoever.
May 6, 2009 - 9:37 pm 130. twobyfour:JJRedFan,
The question is… who is our BC Village idiot?
May 7, 2009 - 1:46 am 131. twobyfour:Now seriously… how can we successfully counteract Alinsky’s manual?
May 7, 2009 - 1:49 am 132. Amused Cynic » Blog Archive » Chrysler: A putsch too far?:[...] Belmont Club: If the accounts cited by the Business Insider are true they would suggest that whoever is doing the shaking down has done it before because it’s an acquired skill; one unlikely to be taught in the polite halls of academia or in genteel salons, and more likely to be learned in the political world of Chicago. But how could that be, after all the assurances by the blog-free zone press that this was going to be the most ethical administration in history, led not by an ordinary man but by a transcendent figure fit to stand alongside Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Gandhi? Did they get that part wrong? Well now’s the time to for the uncowed and inquisitive to ask questions. Because if not now then why bother? [...]
May 7, 2009 - 5:24 am 133. Doug:The Slaying of Master Sergeant Davis
-
Military Advisers at Heart of U.S. Mission in Iraq
Video, NY Times Front Page
May 7, 2009 - 5:29 am 134. Habu:videos now play well @ full screen
130. twobyfour:
Now seriously… how can we successfully counteract Alinsky’s manual?
Probably the easiest way would be infiltration, a cancer to erode/dilute the Democratic Party.
All Republicans register as Democrats, go tho the country meetings and create a confrontational atmosphere by asking hard questions, promoting candidates outside the now Democratic norm and in general use Alinsky tactics 3,4, 8 and 10 to begin with.
Then vote Republican after causing turmoil within the Democratic Party.
In the interim the RNC can develop policies that are similar to the Contract with America.
The Left use to call this co-opting and it worked for them.
ALINKSY’S 13 RULES OF POWER TACTICS
In his book, Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals, Alinsky recommended “power tactics” to solve the kinds of problems that organizers and stewards often encounter. “Tactics are those consciously deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them,” wrote Alinsky.
1. Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have.
2. Never go outside the experience of your people. It may result in confusion, fear and retreat.
3. Wherever possible go outside the experience of the enemy. Here you want to cause confusion, fear and retreat.
4. Make the enemy live up to his/her own book of rules.
5. Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
6. A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.
7. A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
8. Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions and utilize all events of the period for your purpose.
9. The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.
10. The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
11. If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.
12. The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it.
May 7, 2009 - 5:57 am 135. Paul Milenkovic:At first they ignore you, then they mock you (#5, #13), then they fight you (all the other Alinsky rules brought to bear), and then you win.
May 7, 2009 - 6:37 am 136. Habu:134. Paul Milenkovic
We didn’t mention #4 but in infiltrating the Democratic Party at the county level AR #4 (Alinsky Rule) comes heavily into play.
They have procedures and by laws governing meetings etc. Learn them and use them against any meeting you attend. If they use Roberts Rules of Order then constantly tie up the meeting with calls for points of order or one that DEMANDS an immediate vote…a motion to adjourn. use their rules against them
This is also where (and I’ve mentioned this a zillion times) an full understanding of Federalist #10 comes into play. It is not necessary to have an overwhelming number of attendees at any given county meeting. Factions as James Madison pointed out are fatal to governments everywhere and that extends on the micro level to parties. It is also important to understand Federalist #9
by Alexander Hamilton.
Finally from the most unlikely of people we find the best (for the moment) advice Agitiate, agitate, agitate…abolitionist Fredrick Douglas. For too long the Republicans have been passive in guarding the Constitutional Rights granted our nation. Afraid to speak out, afraid to lose their material goods and sterling reputations. I have even advised those with jobs and families to remain stealthy in the cause of protecting what we have, but that doesn’t mean to remain deaf and dumb. DO SOMETHING to disrupt the Democrats in your area.
It is only going to remain a republic if we guard it.
May 7, 2009 - 7:15 am 137. Doug:The Demographic Profile of Los Angeles would seem to make a Conservative Victory there impossible for the foreseeable future.
May 7, 2009 - 7:50 am 138. davod:BUT
Turnout is miniscule.
The last election was 12% I believe.
TWELVE PERCENT!
…thus, a straightforward program to energize the base could easily result in victory.
I cannot wait for the Obamites to force the banks to buy out the Union’s share of Chrylser and GM before they close them down.
May 7, 2009 - 8:15 am 139. Subotai Bahadur:#130 twobyfour and #133 Habu,
In a perfect world, yes that might work. However, we are fighting not just a one front battle with the Democrats, but actually a two front battle with the Republicans on our other flank.
In the interim the RNC can develop policies that are similar to the Contract with America.
That ain’t gonna happen. The RNC is as much at war with Conservatives and Patriots of all stripes as the Obama Democrats.
There are not enough Conservatives and Patriots to fight both fronts within the system, even if the enemy would keep to one set of rules. We know that the Democrats have no respect for laws and rules and will change/ignore them retroactively if they are losing. I myself have seen the Republican leadership do the same in nominating battles.
One can make the rational argument that the situation where we are facing a combination of Alinsky and Pierre Laval is such that no manual of electoral politics or economic theory will prevent our defeat. We must move outside the enemies’ zone of comfort and control, and I suspect that in the end it will require a different text. Perhaps Clausewitz or von Dach.
Subotai Bahadur
May 7, 2009 - 9:55 am 140. CPT. Charles:Actually, the perception of our current ‘problems’ goes back further than you might think…
http://rightbias.com/News/video23.aspx
Watch, and be amazed at someone[s] foresight.
P.S.—this vid should go viral…consider spreading it to as many people as possible.
May 7, 2009 - 1:35 pm 141. johnclubvec:Keith Hennessey is blogging. Why you should care:
===
About Keith Hennessey
I worked as the senior White House economic advisor to President George W. Bush. My job was to coordinate economic policy for the President, including financial market issues, tax policy, energy and climate change, health care, pensions, Social Security and Medicare reform, housing, transportation, technology and telecommunications, and agriculture. I also worked on budget issues and international trade and financial issues.
From August 2002 through the end of 2007, I served as Deputy Assistant to the President for Economic Policy and Deputy Director of the National Economic Council at the White House. In 2008 and 2009, I was Assistant to the President for Economic Policy and Director of the National Economic Council, a position now held by Dr. Larry Summers for President Obama. I spent most of my waking hours for almost six and half years of my life here, based in #19 and then #18.
I’m now taking some time off to recover from 6+ years in the White House.
May 7, 2009 - 2:39 pm 142. buddy larsen:KEITH HENNESSY on the stress tests.
Posted at 2:41 pm by Glenn Reynolds
May 7, 2009 - 4:51 pm 143. Subotai Bahadur:I would like to add grain of salt to Mr. Hennessy’s analysis. It makes the assumption that there is a certain stability in the rules applied by the government. Time after time in the this the first year of the Anno Obama, that stability has been lacking, and always to the detriment of those who have put their faith in the laws and the impartial application thereof.
Subotai Bahadur
May 7, 2009 - 6:08 pmSorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.