62 Comments

1. Wadeusaf:

It must be an ATC thing.

May 17, 2009 - 4:44 am 2. Lifeofthemind:

Maybe Obama can put together an entry in Austrian or Swiss or Lichtensteinian.

May 17, 2009 - 6:13 am 3. Wadeusaf:

Belgium’s is what, Copy cat.
Germany’s swings in”Kiss Kiss Bang”
Wow I am reminded of the Japanese using English words translated for no reason no rhyme and rolled out on tee shirts.

You might be on to something there LotM.

May 17, 2009 - 6:20 am 4. Bob Hawkins:

I was channel surfing and came across an Italian rocker, singing in Italian. Except he was pronouncing it like an American who had never heard Italian spoken. It sounded like American English until you tried to figure out the words.

Even when it’s not in English, sometimes it’s English.

May 17, 2009 - 6:40 am 5. Doug:

OT:
Heads in the Sand

The so-called Sunni Awakening, in which American forces formed tactical alliances with local sheikhs, has been credited with dampening the insurgency in much of Iraq. But new evidence suggests that the Sunnis were offering the same deal as early as 2004—one that was eagerly embraced by commanders on the ground, but rejected out of hand at the highest levels of the Bush administration.

May 17, 2009 - 6:57 am 6. twobyfour:

Yea, many songs there were actually bilingual, if not entirely sung in English. However, most of them were utterly vapid. I saw a comment on youtube about Americans’ musical tastes… What can I say? Feh!

But the fact is English is Linga Franca for the past 60+ years. One reason is music–rock did it’s lion share of propagation of English–as I am da witness. The other is science. Try to write your paper in Azeri–it is like you have put it in a dustbin already.

May 17, 2009 - 7:40 am 7. Aristide:

Doug @ 5

Head in the Sand?

Considering that the article comes from that shining beacon of truth, Vanity Fair, one has to wonder if the background on this Bush bash came from the team of Wilson & Plame!

May 17, 2009 - 7:46 am 8. twobyfour:

Doug/5

One word: Dubious.

Few more words: As I recall, al-Qaeda was only starting to pour over Syrian border at that time. They established their structure early in 2005, adopting and taking over the elements of “resistance”. It took a while for the “resistance” of sunni provenience to realize they’ve been had.

May 17, 2009 - 7:56 am 9. wretchard:

One place you might want to look at for an informed answer to the Vanity Fair article is Brigadier Justin Kelly’s talk. You might want to listen to #4 in the series, beginning at about the 1:45 mark. Kelly had a ringside seat in the surge and had a responsible role in it. Kelly’s message and indeed the theme of his talk was that the insurgency wasn’t beatable until it had been beaten. The reason the surge worked is that it provided the margin to win an actual military victory.

I suppose historians will argue the point over in the coming years.

May 17, 2009 - 8:05 am 10. Marie Claude:

Eurovision reflects populations political visions that sanction one country image, UK, France, Germany are definitly “out”

here a good analyse (in french ) of the system

http://tinyurl.com/os8oh3

May 17, 2009 - 8:05 am 11. vb:

It’s pretty simple: either you can spend your life learning all the languages of Europe, or you can spend your life learning other things like science, business, history, or the music business. Also, the contest is supposed to be about the winning song, not about the performers. It helps when others can tell how great your lyrics are.

One more thing: I doubt that Europe’s cosmopolitan young would welcome simultaneous translators on dates.

May 17, 2009 - 8:08 am 12. F:

I’ve been speaking English since about the age of 2, but I’d caution that it doesn’t do to preen overly about the fact that English is the current Lingua Franca. Doubtless this will not always be the case, and if one inflates one’s self-worth on the fact that his (or her) language is the most spoken in the world, one must accept the likelihood that this will not always be the case.

In fact I rather admire people who are multi-lingual. I remember once hosting then CIA Director Dick Walters in the Central African Republic. He was fluent — marvelously so — in at least a dozen languages and in the three days he was in country managed to learn enough of the local language to give his after dinner toast in it. (Later that evening a European diplomat sidled up to me and pointed out that any good concierge in any decent hotel had as good a grasp of languages as Walters, AND, could remember your name when you returned a year later). But Walters had a gift that I have seen in only a few others. Every language I’ve ever learned came at the cost of a lot of sweat and repetition. Walters and his ilk just absorbed them. The African explorer Richard Burton was said to have learned Arabic in just months while imprisoned in Omdurman, then to have talked his way out of jail.

So sing a song in English if you will; let’s see you talk your way out of jail in Sudan in English!

F

May 17, 2009 - 8:38 am 13. Mike Sylwester:

One reason that the UK and France score low in these contests is that their populations don’t vote much. Those countries are like 50-year-old viewers of American Idol, who might watch and enjoy but who don’t care enough to vote. The populations of countries in east Europe, especially of small countries, vote as enthusiastically and maximally as 15-year-old girls vote here for American Idol contestants.

Another factor is that stage performance of pop music is a relatively obsolete musical genre in countries like the UK and France.

The Alexander Rybak video is worth watching. He’s a good performer, and the two blondes who accompany him are beautiful. Rybak was born in the Soviet Union, but his family emigrated to Norway when he was four years old. His parents are Natalia Valentinovna Rybak, a classical pianist, and Igor Alexandrovich Rybak, a well-known classical violinist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Rybak

May 17, 2009 - 9:07 am 14. twobyfour:

Killing a story, how it is
done

May 17, 2009 - 9:10 am 15. NahnCee:

Does it really matter who wins a Yurp contest, since you’re not really successful until you can come to America and convince Americans that you’re good, too? So doesn’t singing something in English merely mean that you’re ultimately hoping for the chance to present your act to Americans? (And not France.)

May 17, 2009 - 9:30 am 16. Marie Claude:

NahnCee, no more true, you’ll have to learn Chinese now ! (or Arab) LMAO

May 17, 2009 - 9:53 am 17. twobyfour:

MC/6

you’ll have to learn Chinese

Which one?

or Arab

That is just a fad, I can guarantee you that. Have you seen the Start Trek episode with King of Jordan? He did not speak Arabic, he spoke English! Nuff said.

May 17, 2009 - 10:24 am 18. mariner:

F:
I’ve been speaking English since about the age of 2, but I’d caution that it doesn’t do to preen overly about the fact that English is the current Lingua Franca. Doubtless this will not always be the case, and if one inflates one’s self-worth on the fact that his (or her) language is the most spoken in the world, one must accept the likelihood that this will not always be the case.

Somehow I doubt that English was our host’s first language.

I read the post as noting an interesting phenomenon rather than preening.

May 17, 2009 - 11:39 am 19. twobyfour:

F/12

one must accept the likelihood that this will not always be the case.

Yes. In time, we may have Chinglish, Ruslish, Amerlish, Franlish, (we already have Spanglish! ), etc., etc.

Once upon time, there was a language no one today knows its name. It is called Indo-european root language. But before that, you can extrapolate by researching the northern language groups another language that you may call Hyperborean (Northern). It comprises of Indo-european, Altaic and other major language groups that existed on Euroasian continent. But still, you can go back in time and the comparative linguistics is able to cobble together even an earlier structure that may be called Nostra (Ours). There is only a handful of languages that do not fit there. One of most apparent example is Aymara. This lingo is nothing like others… or better no other language we know of at present is like Aymara. While all the known languages use a binary logic in their syntax (yes/no), Aymara uses a trinary logic (yes/median state/no). If there is ever a highly precise technical language devised, the logical table of Aymara would be an ideal platform, together with its agglutinative character. The only similar language is Sumerian, without the solidified trinary logic. Which is somewhat puzzling, Sumerian and Aymara being continents apart, let alone considering time scale difference. And why Aymara uses the trinary logic? There seems to be no particular need for that degree of precision.

OK, I am bit on a tangent… the point is that if the world encounters a type of catastrophe that separates populations for more than several generations, you’d see a proliferation of different versions of English or hybrids of it thereof.

May 17, 2009 - 12:09 pm 20. Bob:

Y’all have never seen a Benny Lava video. You’re in for a treat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA1NoOOoaNw

May 17, 2009 - 12:21 pm 21. Marie Claude:

#17, Twoby, I bet they’ll replace english soon when they’ll acknoledge that you’re a “loosing” country, as they repaced french by arabic when we got off their countries

May 17, 2009 - 12:49 pm 22. twobyfour:

Bob/20

How about this one?

Or this?

May 17, 2009 - 12:57 pm 23. MarkJ:

Benny Hill (R.I.P.) mocked the general stupidity and vapidity of Eurovision over 30 years ago in this classic bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio9s5D_CXc

May 17, 2009 - 1:10 pm 24. Marie Claude:

Twoby, isn’t Kamasoutra an indian invention ?

May 17, 2009 - 1:17 pm 25. Marie Claude:

Mark J, LMAO, so true !

May 17, 2009 - 1:27 pm 26. bogie wheel:

Okay, having watched all the performances that W linked to, I can confidently say that Frank Sinatra’s place in music history is extremely secure ….

May 17, 2009 - 1:33 pm 27. twobyfour:

MC/21

Wrong analogy. See, we don’t even have to be there.

Example, go to Norway and try to ask something in French… … … … … … … and then in English.

May 17, 2009 - 1:46 pm 28. twobyfour:

MC/24

Kamasutra, yes. But adding mustard, no!

May 17, 2009 - 1:48 pm 29. Bob Smith:

The Finnish group: 3 hot women and a guy. One of these 4 should be given the pink slip.

The media keeps telling me only Americans are fat, but take a look at the Dutch backup singers.

May 17, 2009 - 2:08 pm 30. Marie Claude:

see what Eurovision missed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zgB1Jfpjdw

she is a Diva in Germany and n Russia though much more famous than Madonna

May 17, 2009 - 2:08 pm 31. wretchard:

Benny Lava, what about Yoyoy Villame?

May 17, 2009 - 2:13 pm 32. twobyfour:

Bob Smith/29

The singer from Malta is not particularly skinny, but voice… she has.

Eurovision is not about music/songs, it is about showbiz.

May 17, 2009 - 2:14 pm 33. Marie Claude:

Twoby, right for the Norwegen, though they have a language facility with english, but nonentehless their girls come to France as au pair, and some end to marry a french man like the former investigating judge, Eva Joly, but unfortunately she was more like a green judge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Joly

May 17, 2009 - 2:18 pm 34. twobyfour:

MC/33

Oh, I am sure they find theirs in France, does Normandy ring a bell?

May 17, 2009 - 2:26 pm 35. bob too:

In heaven some say the thought isn’t transmitted by any language at all, but the very thought itself adheres in the mind of the other telephathically.

There’s been some dates I’ve been on where I would choose this, if I could, or maybe sign language, rather than all that damn chitchat.

May 17, 2009 - 2:26 pm 36. Marie Claude:

“Eurovision is not about music/songs, it is about showbiz.”

not anymore, it’s an empathy choice for policies, religions, languages similitudes, a need for recognition in the smart society (I remember Israel won the award once too)and the states like France, UK, Germany don’t voice theirs anymore.

Though it’s a good test to know how the european countries feel about the leading EU countries

May 17, 2009 - 2:29 pm 37. Marie Claude:

Twoby, Normandy ring rings more a bell for the anglo-saxons

uh BTW we don’t need mustard or any exiting drug to get into kamasoustra

May 17, 2009 - 2:32 pm 38. Scythianeedle:

Marie Claude, thank you for your entertaining posts.

I thought I had some facility with languages, but I can’t begin to make multi-lingual puns and multi-cultural jokes.

May 17, 2009 - 2:47 pm 39. Marie Claude:

Scythe, I bet bashing is easier

May 17, 2009 - 2:55 pm 40. twobyfour:

bob too/35

The term heaven has a connotation with sound of harps and angels jumping about in slo-mo in clouds, ’s nothing like that. Or white translucent raisins, take your pick

Let’s call it something else, albeit we are wildly off topic. Probably very inaccurate after-life may do.

Yes, it’s dealing with concepts directly, without hindrance of a language. I would not use “telepathy”, the term is related to our world and physics. The physics in after-life are very different.

That is not to say the means of dealing with concepts directly aren’t available here and now. The only problem is that the proof part is not available (in contrast to after-life), for reasons of how things work here.

One thing, people that are multi-lingual (fluently) have a better ability to deal with concepts directly. That does not mean it is necessarily desirable, without the feedback you may find yourself in a territory not exactly conductive to sanity.

However, telepathy, which is a two-way communication, provides a feedback of sorts.
We do use it extensively before being born and shortly after–that is why we learn at amazing speed–like sponges soaking everything in. But then it fades away quickly, paradoxically because of input that we receive from our carers. They offer a language as a replacement, demonstrating that it has better results (subconsciously, there is not much ability to use non-verbal, conceptual communication left). Later, when the basics of the language are mastered, any reference to non-verbal communication that you convey to your carers is weeded out quickly. You grokk that it is no-no and then forget about ever using it again. Well, 99.8% of people do. Those who don’t and do not live in societies that allow it, risk problems and do not fit well.

But even telepathy contains an overlay, a modem of sorts without a packet verification, so it is not an ideal communication instrument.

May 17, 2009 - 3:06 pm 41. twobyfour:

MC/37

Yea, Normandy does ring a bell as Anglo-Saxons go but it rubs in a wrong way!

If you seen Apocalypto, about the same as with the guy that couldn’t make children

May 17, 2009 - 3:10 pm 42. twobyfour:

MC

BTW we don’t need mustard or any exiting drug to get into kamasoustra

You did not think I’ll let it stand, did you?

Exiting drug — some people dream about having sex and die, but that thought does not excite me much.

Mustard… maybe so, but I saw some French flicks with Belgian chocolate.

May 17, 2009 - 3:26 pm 43. twobyfour:

BTW, MC, left a reply to your comment about Jules Verne.

May 17, 2009 - 3:34 pm 44. Doug:

Bob Smith,
in case you missed it:

Christians are supposed to be fat, balding sweaty little men with bad complexions.

Liberal Taliban Issues Fatwa Against Miss California

Not even Dick Cheney can incite the blood-curdling rage of liberals at the sight of a sexy Evangelical Christian. Paula Jones, Katherine Harris, Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin and, most recently, Miss California, Carrie Prejean, have all come under a frenzy of attacks from liberals.

Christians are supposed to be fat, balding sweaty little men with bad complexions. It’s liberals who are supposed to be the sexy ones. (I know that from watching “The West Wing” and all movies starring Julia Roberts.)

But sadly for liberals, in real life, the fat, balding sweaty little guy with the bad complexion is Perez Hilton and the smoking-hot babe is Carrie Prejean.

This apparent contradiction incites violent anger in liberals, triggering their famous “fight or flight” response. So liberal masturbators are, once again, launching furious attacks on a beautiful Christian in a fit of pique similar to the one directed at Joan of Arc.
—
This time in real life, the fat, balding sweaty guy was Axelrod.

May 17, 2009 - 4:10 pm 45. Doug:

From “Cascades”

46. JJRedfan:
I used to enjoy listening to NPR back in the 1980s. Garrison Keilor was actually funny before he became famous for a few weeks.

Don’t know if he was turned into a deeply embittered sourpuss by the almost instantaneous dissolution of his marriage to a Danish woman.

He had rhapsodized about the approaching nuptials for months and months, possibly torpedoing it, possibly idealizing it so no woman could live up to the elaborate fantasy he’d constructed; maybe he was hideously deeply humiliated by the instant self-destruct after he’d publicized the thing so much.

May 17, 2009 - 4:21 pm 46. Marie Claude:

I didn’t see “Apocalypto”, but I read a book once that relates the kind of story

http://www.amazon.de/Caribbean-James-Michener/dp/0449217493

May 17, 2009 - 4:50 pm 47. twobyfour:

MC, no the scene I mentioned is not in the story you mentioned. You’d have to see it. I have a copy in .avi format so I do not have to use the DVD every time I want to watch it. If you want I can post it for you on my server to slurp it (for evaluation purposes), email me: t AT twobyfour DOT info, if interested.

May 17, 2009 - 5:01 pm 48. Wadeusaf:

Imitation may the highest form of flattery, but I think they’re just having too much fun.

May 17, 2009 - 5:03 pm 49. Marie Claude:

Ywoby, OK sent !

“but I saw some French flicks with Belgian chocolate.”

that’s for the “gourmets”

May 17, 2009 - 5:24 pm 50. twobyfour:

MC, OK, will post later and send back a linky.

Re gourmets…

Bob: “It tastes really weird.”
Frank: “Oh? No, that is a gourmet food!”

May 17, 2009 - 5:29 pm 51. Annoy Mouse:

F-12 – “So sing a song in English if you will; let’s see you talk your way out of jail in Sudan in English!”

This is amusing in the least. Come on guys. Few Americans aspire to speak Swahili or Arabic as it may be. I can order goat or a Gyro anytime I want and the cab drivers seem to know where the airport is, but ya gotta admire the polyglots. I know I am a least a bit jealous.

How’s your Esparanza?

May 17, 2009 - 5:59 pm 52. twobyfour:

Annoy Mouse/51

How’s your Esparanza?

Izzat a car or sumthin’?

Ya’don’t mean Esperanto, mayhaps, do’ya?

May 17, 2009 - 6:09 pm 53. Annoy Mouse:

Thanks 2×4… I almost blerted out santamaria so close enough? yikes!

May 17, 2009 - 6:23 pm 54. F:

Mariner @ # 18: I was not implying our host was preening, I was saying no one should preen overly about his or her language being the most commonly spoken worldwide. Just as one should not count on his or her currency being the world’s reserve currency forever.

A.M. @#51. My Swahili was once pretty fair. So too my Lao and Kannarese. Regrettably, they’ve all faded. Even my French and Spanish, which I use several times a year, have faded. Alas. The English will doubtless be the next to go. . . F

May 17, 2009 - 6:34 pm 55. Tony:

Doug, tell Bob Hawkins @4 that it is not always American English, sometimes it’s Beatles English the band sings, in a bar in old Kyoto, for example.

Which brings up the question, why did the Beatles try singing (unsuccessfully) in a Buddy Holly accent?

Why does Mick Jagger sing like Howling Wolf?

It’s satanic, I tell you. (sarc)

May 17, 2009 - 6:39 pm 56. twobyfour:

Tony/55

Why does Mick Jagger sing like Howling Wolf?

Cuz one gal told him it is sexy and he thought she was serious. So he howled and indeed, there were gals. Well, even a broken clock is correct twice a day!

May 17, 2009 - 7:31 pm 57. twobyfour:

The English will doubtless be the next to go. . . F

It may be even terminal?

May 17, 2009 - 7:35 pm 58. james wilson:

The reason the songs are written in English is purely because they want them to be understood by a vastly increased audience, which includes Europe itself. Clearly, it does not also make for a better product.

May 17, 2009 - 10:56 pm 59. CatoTheShorter:

This guy won? He can’t sing.

May 18, 2009 - 7:23 am 60. twobyfour:

CatoTheShorter/59
Well, no. But that’s the hint: It may not be about signing.

May 18, 2009 - 11:42 am 61. Marie Claude:

Twoby, uh, you forgot to send me your “copy” bit

May 18, 2009 - 12:47 pm 62. twobyfour:

MC,

No, I just did not have time to upload it yet. Hopefully tonight I’ll get to it.

May 18, 2009 - 1:54 pm

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