48 Comments

1. Willie G:

There are those who believe that there is nothing worth killing or dying for.

There are those who are in search of something to live or die for.

Some bring meaning to their life by the way that they live, others by the way they die.

All trite, but true.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:03 pm 2. Mike_W:

There is no equivalence.
Violent Islamic jihad against infidels has been around for over 1300 years.
Any excuse, including infidel “words” will do.
It is part and parcel of Islam.
The total death toll would be in the hundreds of millions.
The total murders of abortionists might be in the tens.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:03 pm 3. Joshua:

The elephant in the room – well, one of them, anyway – is the motivation of the perpetrators. It’s quite possible that both of these killers will claim that they were just following God’s/Allah’s teachings, orders etc. in their acts. That won’t justify their actions as far as the law is concerned, but it does point to the same dilemma we face with al Qaeda: How can the law hope to dissuade someone who honestly believes an act of murder is their ticket to heaven? After all, nothing the law or the state can do to you in this measly, finite little world is more than a trivial nuisance when compared to eternal paradise. And execution would simply speed you on your way there.

Incentives and motivations matter.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:04 pm 4. RWE:

Seeing on TV that the man who shot the soldiers was described as having done it for “political and religious reasons” I turned to my Mom and said “You know what that means, don’t you? The shooter is a Muslim.” Looks like I was right.

As for the one who shot the abortion doctor, he is described as having had “mental health probems” and his ex-wife described him as being “anti-everything.” At one time he had joined the radical group in Montana, the Freemen. The local police where he lived had identified him as being very dangerous.

Both of these incidents show the legacy of the 60’s, what Myron Magnet describes as the dream become a nightmare.

Frankly, before the much-blessed Civil Rights Movement, a Muslim would have been smart enough to keep his head down and hope not to get noticed by the rednecks.

And before the Warren Court decision that opened up and closed down the state mental hospitals the Kansas shooter would have been safely locked up, learning macrame or how to make a mold of his palm print with plaster of paris.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:23 pm 5. wretchard:

Every society is bound together by myths. Consequently, one of the most powerful ways to enforce social cohesion was a control of the narrative. The source code of the system. For a long time the Catholic Church maintained (and still maintains) the institutions of the Censor Librorum, or censor of books, to grant the nihil obstat or the imprimatur. In other settings the guardian of the source code was the consensus of the elders, or the social leaders. Once upon a time in Britain, every well brought up gentleman knew what the “done thing” was. If you crossed the line you would be ostracized. Perhaps the broadcast media performed a similar role until recently in post-war America.

But in our multi-culti age dissent is patriotic and everyone is off to discover their roots. “Got to get back to the land, set my soul free.” Not only does no one know the “done thing” anymore the “done thing” no longer exists in principle. Our social elders are people on TV. Some wise guys thought it might be a good idea to set fire to the house to keep warm, and now as the flames lick around the carpet at their feet, it has occurred to them that this method of heating might have some drawbacks.

In one sense, the coming years will be about the struggle to control the source code. How it will end, I don’t know. It will be interesting is one way to put it.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:24 pm 6. Utopia Parkway:

The US is a nation of laws. We have legal means of resolving all disputes. I won’t say that all disputes are resolved fairly, but they are resolved. If one chooses to live in this country you have to expect that you won’t agree with some laws and some govt policies. It’s just guaranteed to work out that way.

People like these murderers disagree with some laws and some govt policies and are willing to commit murder for their beliefs. It isn’t really rational. It isn’t like cheating on your taxes or even robbing a bank. These guys were caught in a short time after their crimes and will likely be executed or get life in prison.

Do they represent a trend or are they outliers?

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:25 pm 7. JFSanders:

“It’s quite possible that both of these killers will claim that they were just following God’s/Allah’s teachings, orders etc.

Yes, most psychotic people do claim that ” a voice from my tv, dog, GOD, the bunny shaped cloud etc…” told me to murder. It is up to us the more normal to see that for what it is.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:39 pm 8. Willie G:

#6 UP – The laws are respected only as long as they are perceived to apply to everyone equally. Lately, we have gone from “white man’s justice” to “Rich man’s justice” to “justice for minorities” to the Government placing it’s finger on the scales to favor the well connected unions.

Under these circumstances, you best get yours while you can, because you can’t depend on the law any longer.

In a nutshell, the laws remain on the books – but they are no longer operating as a reference point for individual or government behaviour. That means anarchy is just around the corner.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:39 pm 9. EdGi:

“Against everything” derangement, like suicide, is not rational and an illness that has been with us forever. The problem is the “causes” who see these crimes as a bashing tool against their foes or cover up their actual encouragement of the clearly nuts. The Weathermen and Syn Lib Army and todays Young Black Panthers were clearly known to their own sponsors as what they were and are, and the “causes” covered for them. Our leadership needs to oppse the nuts, but so do the “causes”. Obi/Holder/Jackboot Janet are covering for their useful nutcases, and are clearly using the murdered doctor for the same purpose as the KKK lynching suppression campaigns.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:39 pm 10. Stan:

Was one seeking to defend life and the other, what? weaken the enemy or kill the infidel? Motivations are difficult to discern and more difficult to evaluate one against the other. That’s why the concept of % crimes” is so murky. What we can grasp is that they are .

The fans of Dr. Tiller praised his “work” getting women out of difficult circumstances… late term abortions are a gruesome business and the motivations myriad but the “butcher’s bill” is always paid by the little one with no voice.

It takes a special heart and mind to end an life in a late term abortion time, after time, after time. I, for one, cannot fathom it.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:44 pm 11. joe buzz:

I couldnt believe my ears when I tuned in C-span radio on my way home from work today. I dont know what the forum was but the speakers were discussing “they” that killed Tiller. They of course were the right wing conservatives and one speaker or attendee even called out Bill O and Fox News as responsible for drumming up anti-abortion sentiment. These were not callers into the show. These were speakers and attendees at some sort of conference on Conservatism. One female speaker insisted several times that now that the conservatives were out of power they were becoming more desperate and committing acts of violence in an attempt to force their political will.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:48 pm 12. wretchard:

One of the ironies of Obama’s first 150 days is that he’s governed as if words don’t matter. Robert Samuelson, writing in the Washington Post argues that “the Obama infatuation is a great unreported story of our time.” Samuelson argues that whatever Obama says is accepted at face value, even if it is a contradiction in terms. In Obama’s case, words don’t matter.

Obama’s rhetoric brims with inconsistencies. In the campaign, he claimed he would de-emphasize partisanship — and also enact a highly partisan agenda; both couldn’t be true. He got a pass. Now, he claims he will control health-care spending even though he proposes more government spending. He promotes “fiscal responsibility” when projections show huge and continuous budget deficits. Journalists seem to take his pronouncements at face value even when many are two-faced.

Samuelson caustically says that “a great edifice of government may arise on the narrow foundation of Obama’s personal popularity”. Yet in a way it makes sense without being sensible. A cult of personality flourishes and style replaces substance when principled debate has become impossible because of the wide gaps between the discussants. After all, people with nothing political in common might agree that a certain celebrity is a good looking babe. After a while, maybe that’s all they have left. In the end people may conclude that maybe words don’t matter, so maybe Obama does.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:49 pm 13. RWE:

Wretchard #12: Bigotry had one useful purpose. It gave those too stupid or venal to figure out how to behave a set of standards to follow. Don’t try to figure it out, old chap. Just follow the manual.

So we killed bigotry. Or almost. Now bigotry of bigotry is ascendant. Only that translates to some – the same types that needed bigotry as a guideline – as there are no standards but a need to attack the old standards.

I recall an NPR piece on Albania in the early 90’s. After the communist government fell, people reversed their attitudes, apparently figuring that if the government told them that something was bad, and the government was now considered to be bad, then that which the government told them to be bad must really be good. So the USA must be wonderful – and that it also must be Okay to steal your neighbor’s chickens.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:09 pm 14. John lynch:

Only real difference was that for Muhammad any soldier would do.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:31 pm 15. solovyev:

Words do indeed matter, as Thucydides, Hobbes and Orwell all have taught us. The decades-long descent into doublespeak promoted by the left has had more than mere stylistic consequences. We seem to have lost the culture war, let us pray that loss is not a prelude to something worse.

“Inconsiderate boldness was counted true-hearted manliness;
provident deliberation, a handsome fear;
modesty, the cloak of cowardice;
to be wise in everything, to be lazy in everything …”

Language is the principal thing that holds us all together. When it is devalued or diminished, or intentionally corrupted, the community of speakers can be fatally weakened also. This is why every lie we tell corrupts, not just the individual speaker, but all of us.

As another poster has said, the lies told have cleared the ground for future action.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:35 pm 16. Subotai Bahadur:

#8 Willie G & #12 Wretchard,

Politics is how a society chooses to resolve allocation of power and resources in a way that is acceptable to all, most of the time. The means may vary from society to society; and the means used by one society may be abhorrent to another, but it is what works for each society. These get codified into laws, and even the words and acts of the ruler have to make sense in those terms.

If the law means nothing. If the words of a ruler are … undependable … as a guide for action; if those not connected to whatever ‘in group’ is in power cannot depend on any set framework beyond the Force Majeure of those more powerful, then those decisions as to allocation of power and resources default to an earlier standard. Mao discussed that standard in his little red book.

Seriously, I ask BC’ers here; is there any aspect of our political society where one can depend on the ability to appeal to an impartial application of the law or the Constitution? The Executive? The Legislative? The Judicial? The many quasi-Judicial regulatory agencies? Is there any established political movement that seriously would restore that ability?

That is where we are breaking down. We have tolerated lawbreaking by the lawmakers for so long that law has lost its meaning.

Returning to the dichotomy between the killer of the abortion doctor, and the killer of the soldier; anyone want to bet which one gets off eventually? And why?

Oh, and I am amazed at two things about the Little Rock shooting. First, there has not yet been the normal preface to all official statements when a Muslim is involved in a random attack on other(s); “that there is no terrorist connection”. This usually is issued before any details of the case are known. The second is that the accused shooter of the soldier’s statement of his reasons were actually released. Someone is going to get their private parts in a wringer over that.

Subotai Bahadur

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:37 pm 17. enscout:

Richard:
“words don’t matter”.
Throughout the campaign and now that he’s governing, I keep telling my adult sons to pay attention to what he does, not what he says. Meanwhile the left and MSM is so enamored about how he says it – not what he says – that they miss the hypocrisy.

What a wide disconnect.

re: Myths; I think society is more tied to culture and tradition than myths. I asked a close (left of center) friend what she believed was meant by the phrase ‘objective morality’. Her answer was, as predicted, reason and tradition. This is congruent with what you describe as myth.
But I think objective morality is totally separated from human reason and tradition. It is the gift, the Word from the creator. Many traditions and myths have been lived out in the long history of mankind. Some were mildly successful, most were not. It is only the morality of the Father that works for mankind.

If we could only live it.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:46 pm 18. Wadeusaf:

Politics by violent means is for some justifiable. Murder by any means is still murder. Applied to a doctor accused of murder, the question ought to be “what immediate and deadly threat did the fetus pose to your life and limb. What threat to those who agree to abort life. Humans have a big conscious and negative reaction to murdering a member of the species. Applied to the man who wielded the gun, what immediate and deadly threat did the usher at that church pose to you no matter what his occupation. To the man who’s target became the recruiters office, what eminent deadly threat did those men pose to you. The answers of course are very telling. The fetus does not pose a threat to the doctor and no matter how much the inconvenience to the female (I hesitate to call any woman who would kill a fetus a mother) the fetus poses no eminent threat to her. The doctor did not pose a threat to the fellow wielding the murder weapon, no matter how much the guy felt he was protecting life. What motives the last fellow had I do not know, but it is a queer irony to realize that in certain parts of the world today, those soldiers brothers are actively protecting the brothers of the man who shot them killing one.

We have a system that determines what behaviors are punishable as criminal acts and what behaviors are not. There are certain limits which ought not be crossed or crimes against humanity may be charged. If abortion is not a crime against humanity, what then is. Is it our place to stop the murder, is it not good enough to not aid or abet in its commission? Is it merely a religious reaction or is it a human one measured and manifested over time in religious dogma? Is the measure of god truly man?

We are not yet at war.

The gaps are there already between men, the debate has already seen the ad hominem blow and logic cast aside a thin hide, in lieu of supposed comedy. Shouting down the opponent to try to force a bad remark. A pie for your thoughts, a chain reacting chant in the chambers of the Senate and House committee.

I don’t know what is left to us, if voting results now suspect, become a matter of no respect, the rule of law is done.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:50 pm 19. Cadmus:

Both killings are psychotic murder, but, there is a lot of difference between the two. It is not about how many the each has killed; for that would lead us to define just how many people do they need to kill before we call them murderers.

Killing is killing, whether it is one or one million.

Dr. Tiller was in the eyes of many a “murderer” himself. That, of course, never justifies killing him. If he has broken the law, he should be tried and sentenced. If he has not, then those who disagree should work on changing the law. Unless we want to implement the law of the jungle, and then, God help us all.

I can attest that third trimester fetuses are real people. I have 11 year old twins who were born at week 29, the start of the third trimester. They are healthy as can be. Sure they needed some medical attention initially to make it. But, should we discount the humanity of anyone who cannot make it without medical attention? How many people’s lives will become disposable under that rule?

In this light, Dr. Tiller’s death was a result of something he did, which instigated the psychotic behavior. I am not justifying his death, just following the path of cause and effect.

What did the soldiers do to instigate Muhammad’s psychotic killing? None. This was nothing more than cold-blooded hateful murder.

Muhammad cannot even justify his actions through his religion as Jihad. It does not even fit in the broadest or most twisted interpretation of Jihad. Not even Bin Laden can find a demented justification for this. Armed Jihad must have a purpose. We may not agree with that purpose, but it has to exist to justify killing anyone. There is none here. This was not an oppressed suffering individual fighting for his freedom. He was not fighting against a perceived invader or occupier. He was not defending himself, his family, nation or religion.

Muhammad just wanted to kill a non-Moslem for the sake of killing.

It may make you feel better that under the rules of Jihad his actions do not get him to heaven. They get him straight to hell, were he deserves to be. Yes, I have studied my enemy well.

What bothers me most about all this is that the media calls Dr. Tiller’s killers “psychotic”, “mentally disturbed” etc. while almost justifying Muhammad’s actions in terms of “political and religious reasons”.

What political and religious reasons? Muhammad is American. What political purpose does his murderous killing of his country’s soldiers serve? Is he saying that Moslems are not American and thus all American soldiers are the enemy who are occupying his country? If so, he should have packed up and moved to whatever country he considers his own. No one would have stopped him.

No, there is no comparison, except the fact the both are cold blooded murder. The rest does not come close.

Cadmus

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:59 pm 20. John lynch:

#19 Cadmus

People have reasons for everything. I’m sure Muhammad would draw a lot of sympathy from a lot of other quarters, who ironically might also condone the murder of an abortionist. We don’t know Muhammad’s motivation, but even if we fully understood it it changes nothing.

What matters is that people are dead. Every murderer has a reason.

Understanding reasons or sympathizing with them does not change the act one whit.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:45 pm 21. Joshua:

Me, #3: It’s quite possible that both of these killers will claim that they were just following God’s/Allah’s teachings, orders etc.

JFSanders, #7, in response: Yes, most psychotic people do claim that ” a voice from my tv, dog, GOD, the bunny shaped cloud etc…” told me to murder. It is up to us the more normal to see that for what it is.

That is true, but it misses my point. As I mentioned in a different thread, whether such beliefs are delusional or not is irrelevant; what really matters is the effect such beliefs have on their believers. No law on this flawed, fleeting world of hours is going to dissuade someone who honestly believes their good standing in eternity hinges on their willingness to break said law. The most any society can do when faced with such a mindset is try to physically stop them or, failing that, pick up the pieces after the fact. Again, see al Qaeda and other jihadists.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:50 pm 22. Tcobb:

What political and religious reasons? Muhammad is American. What political purpose does his murderous killing of his country’s soldiers serve? Is he saying that Moslems are not American and thus all American soldiers are the enemy who are occupying his country?
I suggest that you read the Koran. Islam, if you read the Koran literally, is not just a religion in the ordinary sense, it also mandates the political form of government that is required–an Islamic theocracy. To the extent that Muslim countries have other forms of government it requires, on their part, a form of Orwellian doublethink, much like a Christian or Jew who becomes convinced that one or more of the ten commandments are merely advisory in nature.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:04 pm 23. Morton Doodslag:

Some perspective is in order.

Long since 9/11 I have altogether lost track of the staggering number of Jihad attacks by Muslims in the world — it numbers in the tens of thousands most certainly. The number of dead and maimed is into the hundreds of thousands, especially when one counts the myriad Muslim murders in Islamic sewers like Eritrea, Sudan, Darfur, et al. On American soil we’ve also tasted the bitter poison of Islam — from traitor John Allen Muhammad, through the traitors of the “Lackawan Six”, through the treason of the Megahed Florida bomb plot, to the treason of the Lodi bomb plot, through treason of the Fort Dix bomb plot, to the treason of the Sears Tower bomb plot, through all of these ad nauseum acts of treason and terror by Muslims, these and many more I’ve forgotten, and many more we don’t yet know about — through all of this we have suffered.

But does our press blame Muslims? Do they indict Islam itself? No. Will they blame Muslims for this cold blooded cowardly act of Islamic terror? No.

Sunday, a single American fanatic murdered an industrial abortionist. Our treasonous press and the treasonous Left will exploit this single incident to indict and smear everyone on the Right, to defame all of America, all of Christianity, and all right leaning blogs. They will exploit this single ugly murder to further their heinous agenda to strangle opposition, marginalize our free speech, and justify more “findings” like Napolitano’s notorious report alleging that our worst enemies are from veterans and the Right.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:04 pm 24. whiskey:

On a broader level, America vacillates between extreme, personal violence, characterized by a lot of “arguments” that escalate into killings, and very calm periods.

After the Revolution, there was little political assassinations or other types of “political” killings, until the various regional and class tensions heated up in the struggle between Adams, Clay, and Jackson. Jackson, for example, had an attempted assassination at the Capitol steps (at age 65 he nearly beat the assassin to death with his cane). There was the caning of an Abolitionist in the Senate by a Southerner. The violence of everyday life was chronicled in Mark Twain’s “Huckleberry Finn” in the memorable moment where the man who’s killed someone faces down the lynch mob with sarcasm and barely repressed rage (he was ready to kill the first comer). The feuds “Why Harney Rode Back for His Hat” and other killings common in the South and the Frontier, spoke both of a lack of social control and the visible organs of police and government (a feature of both regions to this day) but also of a people themselves angry, divided, and ready to turn to violence to solve issues/questions/struggles that could not in fact be solved in any other way. Slavery being the big part of it, but only part of it.

After the Civil War, no better, with the Klan lynching, various assassinations, Western Bandits (James/Younger, Billy the Kid, Juaquin Muirietta, etc.) and Eastern Gangs. Violence was common enough that Smith and Wesson marketed it’s “lemon squeezer” revolver to ladies in the East. Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley were all assassinated. Unions met with company goons, and violence and brutality on all sides.

It was only during the 1910-20’s, where there was relative peace and not much killing, punctuated by Prohibition mobsters, lots of killings, Depression Era gangsters, until relative peace and lack of “political” as well as other killings characterized 1938-1963.

After which, the assassinations of Kennedy, Medgar Evers, Malcolm X, RFK, Martin Luther King, and attempted assassinations of George Wallace, Gerald Ford, and Ronald Reagan finally put an end to the political killings. Punctuated by Jonestown and the end of the 1970’s (which probably ended with John Hinckley Jr.’s failure to kill Reagan).

What’s notable is that all these assassination attempt periods ALSO mark vast increases in criminal behavior of the ordinary kind, including lots of killing. And various vigilante movements in reality or fantasy. So you get NightRiders, or Regulators, the Vigilance Committee (in San Francisco, so strong Sherman declined to take them on). Or Death Wish movies in the late 1970’s.

My explanation is that there is a general loosening of social control and mores and so on that keep people from well, going off their rocker and killing people. Guys who would be merely quietly nuts become violent nuts. Not fearing reprisals and consequences. They may be crazy, never stupid. This causes a flare-up of political killings across the board, as people turn to the most brutal imaginable way of making their point, and chaotic street violence on the local level.

Authorities flaunt their impotence and inability and unwillingness to confront the criminals, which only enrages the citizenry who turn to vigilante action or fantasy.

Lesson: society loosens it’s restrictions, social repression, and controls at it’s peril.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:22 pm 25. Robohobo:

wretchard said: “Not only does no one know the “done thing” anymore the “done thing” no longer exists in principle.”

Exactly wrong or if so then it explains the problems we have in this country/culture. Moral underpinnings are directly attributable to the Judeo/Christian ethic. You know, part of which is those 10 commandments. (Note, they are commandments not suggestions, for a reason.) The basis for the civil life in this Republic are two documents. You know the ones, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution. They have a Christian basis whether you like it or not.

Tiller’s murder was wrong. It has nothing to do with how he led his life. That he committed wholesale murder is under debate and speaks more about the baseness of our current cultural decline.

The murder of Pvt. Long is just that, murder. Mohammed’s reasons do not matter.

But to say there is not a proper “done thing” in this society is just disingenuous.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:37 pm 26. Mike_W:

Cadmus,
you might like to read an excellent essay by Sultan Knish that explains the role of violent jihad in the spread of Islam.
Ignorance about Islam is getting the West into a lot of trouble.

‘The visible war, the terrorist threat, the car bombings, the shootings, the riots, the stabbings are the threat under which free nations surrender themselves one piece at a time. The goal of the visible war is to make present and clear the threat. But it is the invisible war which extracts the concessions.

The invisible war is not waged with guns or bombs. It is waged with reasonable editorials, with suits and benedictions. With smiles and handshakes and reassurances. It is a salesman’s pitch that goes something like this. “We want to live in peace. To be your neighbors, to attend your weddings, embrace your families and create a better world. But first this is what we want–”‘

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2009/05/appeasement-of-concessions-invisible.html

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:45 pm 27. trangbang68:

Where did Mohammed get converted? If it was in prison, it is the fault of State and Federal corrections departments that allow radical Wahaabi trained chaplains in our prisons.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:54 pm 28. Holdfast:

Since according to ABC News, the FBI had this guy under some sort of surveillance since his return from YEMEN, even they cannot pretend this is not a terrorist act.

So is this the first successful attack in the US by a foreign-trained Jihadi since 9/11 – obviously not including the pure “homegrowns” like Beltways Snipers, LAX/El Al and Tarheel Driver, as well as unsuccessful foreign-trained like Padilla.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:55 pm 29. Tcobb:

We all see things through our own filters often viewing events as cause and effect even when real evidence of that is lacking. I knew a District Judge in Texas who dealt with criminal cases (felonies) who was convinced that drug use didn’t really cause crime in which there were victims–it was that people who were disposed to commit anti-social behavior were also inclined to use drugs at a rate much higher than the general population.
Might this be the case with the killers in question here? Do the current culture wars merely supply an excuse and targets for deranged individuals who would have found someone to kill no matter what?

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:26 pm 30. JWT:

OK, so everybody is saying, murder is never justified.
Was the bomb plot against Hitler justified?

Just askin’.

Ann Coulter…I don’t know yet what she has opined on Tiller’s assassination, but it’s a safe bet she has more gizmos than all us girlie men combined.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:47 pm 31. heathermc:

Last night I watched MTV Movie Awards (because I wanted to see a trailer for New Moon).

Now, I don’t watch television, and so “The Hills” was a new experience (vapid is the word… with lots of blonde men and women who look alike); and then the MTV Awards program was beyond terrible. It was vulgar. The jokes were grotesque, featuring masturbation and thongs. It was unbelievable. And this represents a ‘culture’ that is ‘popular’ in the USofA?? I have to say, I have some sympathy for the Islamist critique of our society. And this is not a good thing.

The ethos that supports that MTV evil show is the base that supports abortion up to birth.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:09 pm 32. john lynch:

-Tcobb

Might be. We don’t really know yet.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:39 pm 33. whiskey:

HeahterMC — MTV is now a totally teen female oriented network, with reality shows like “Super Sweet 16″ … about million dollar Sweet 16 parties, that gave us Kim Kardashian, and other reality shows like “the Hills” (itself a spin-off of of “Laguna Beach” … about rich, bored teens).

It doesn’t actually show music videos anymore.

That’s not just vulgar and grotesque, it’s vulgar and grotesquerie that is popular among teen girls.

For videos you have to go to MTV2, or VHI Classic. VH1 only plays reality stuff too, that skews older women (post-teens, 18-34). Stuff like Surreal Life, etc.

Point being that it used to be guys that liked the gross stuff. Now it’s girls too.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:40 pm 34. Mark:

Tiller lived in a contested moral zone. He attracted attention. Something bad might happen, as it does to those who live on the edges of law and civilization, whether they attend the ELCA Church of the Reformation or not.

On the other hand, murder of soldiers, like cop killing, strikes at the moral foundation of society. We rightly assign to a low level of hell the killer of cops, or in this case killer of soldier.

Democrats will equate the killings, playing the murderous events at far sides of the political spectrum against the middle, in this case those who own guns under the protection of the Second Amendment.

Is Roe and its subsequent elaboration therefore the equivalent of the Second Amendment? I suspect most Americans, including and especially Whiskey’s favorite demographic groups, will say ‘yes.’

I suspect that there is a leader somewhere who will tell us that he rejects the false dichotomies of those who say we can’t perform late-term dismemberment abortions and those who say it’s a religious duty to assassinate U.S. soldiers assassination.

There’s a happy middle ground in our future. We won’t want the Muslims around the world who admire the assassin to think we don’t understand their religious sensibilities. Feel the tingle yet?

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:55 am 35. dan:

I’m just startled by the synchronicity of the murders. The boogeymen of both ideological camps in the USA striking within 24 hours of each other? What are the odds?

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:16 am 36. Tarnsman:

Has the “personally popular” but woefully inept President issued a statement of outrage over the cold-bloodied killing of a United States solider by a US citizen of the Muslim faith, who also happens to be black? I thought not. Has the President ordered security beefed up at recruiting stations like he did directing the Justice Department to order U.S. Marshalls to deploy at abortion clinincs after Tiller’s murder. Of course not.

BTW My son enlisted in the Air Force and I went with him to the recruiters’ office every time during the enlistment process. I never saw any weapons being carried by the recruiters (sidearms). I imagine that such was the case as the recruiting center in Little Rock. So yesterday was a murder of an unarmed serviceman. And the Commander-in-Chief has nothing to say??

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:46 am 37. Vinny Vidivici:

Morton Doodslag:

Spot on about the media framing. Guilt for Tiller’s murder will be cast against entire groups, from gun owners to conservative bloggers. Guilt for Pvt. Long’s murder will be confined (rightly) to his killer. We won’t see any handwringing or denunciations of the media’s non-stop show-trial of the U.S. military, or the encouragement of grievance-nurturing and the pass given islamic zealotry by our broader culture.

Also: Tiller will get the full Matthew Shepard. Private Long’s murder will disappear in another news cycle or two, if it hasn’t already.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:56 am 38. Richard Aubrey:

Anti-abortion folks have killed, I think, about eight people in forty years.
American Muslims have killed how many Americans in the last ten?
Trolley Square was six, I think. A Jewish women’s center in Seattle was one, and half a dozen wounded.
The Jeepster Jihadi failed but not for lack of trying.
As somebody pointed out, Newsweek’s bogus story about Koran flushing got a hundred killed.
Seems anti-abortion folks have a long way to go to catch up.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:29 am 39. Vincent Vega:

#36 Tarnsman

Congratulations on your Son’s enlistment and please Thank him for his service to this great country. I was in the USAF for one enlistment and those were four of the best years of my life.

I mentioned something about recruiters being armed on Ace of Spades yesterday. Obviously not in the sense that they are as I know that they’re forbidden from having weapons at the station. However I can’t help but wonder, since we now know that this was a Jihad attack, will that give an individual pause before he goes to work? Especially a combat vet like most recruiters are? I know it sure would me, regardless if this was a “lone wolf.” Who would bet he’ll be the last? What if he’s just the first? My quote on Ace was basically that I would personally be compelled to at least consider taking the risk of losing my career and even my freedom as opposed to losing my life.

#35 Dan

Yes, it’s stunning and since we’re still “in” the moment, what impact this has on those two sides can’t be known. I do agree with the sentiment that the media will treat the two crimes completely differently. “They” are on the side of the deceased doctor, at least philosophically. They are also on the “side” of the jihadi, though they’d never admit it and some probably don’t even realize, literally, why they are. That symmetry in itself blows my mind. I’m not saying that the media supports the murder of the soldier and I don’t support the murder of the doctor. However, though the media’s complicity in weakening this country and diminishing the jihadi threat didn’t directly lead to the death of the young soldier, they are nonetheless still enemy propagandists and agitators, either willingly or naively.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:33 am 40. Tarnsman:

Seems there is an American leader willing to speak out about the blaring double-standard in the media over these two murders:

“The stories of two very different lives with similar fates crossed through the media’s hands yesterday – both equally important but one lacked the proper attention. The death of 67-year old George Tiller was unacceptable, but equally disgusting was another death that police believe was politically and religiously motivated as well.

William Long died yesterday. The 23-year old Army Recruiter was gunned down by a fanatic; another fellow soldier was wounded in the ambush. The soldiers had just completed their basic training and were talking to potential recruits, just as my son, Track, once did.

Whatever titles we give these murderers, both deserve our attention. Violence like that is no way to solve a political dispute nor a religious one. And the fanatics on all sides do great disservice when they confuse dissension with rage and death.”

~Governor Sarah Palin

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:07 am 41. Mark:

Sarah’s comments are too careful and insistent on proportionality. The Muslim gunman is not a ‘fanatic.’ He’s a jihadist.

There, Sarah, just say it (and, sad to say, further sink your political career): ‘J-I-H-A-D-I-S-T.’

Tiller’s killer violates basic Christian teaching. Christians have a commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” Government authorities may decide that war or capital punishment is necessary. In a Christian scheme of things, authority is delegated to Caesar, and in a Christian country that Caesar is accountable to a Christian electorate.

The Muslim killer is following a fundamental strand of Islamic teaching. His actions are not in tension with Islamic teaching.

There’s a difference between the two religions, and Sarah does not do the country much service in equating the Christian and Islamic teachings.

Tiller’s killer is a son-of-a-b***ch, but he’s a John Brown crazy American one, a familiar dog in an old fight. I hate the murder, but I understand the fight, and I get that people are going to get hurt in the rumble. The Muslim dude is bringing a new dog into a new fight. The triangulation is going to be trouble.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:56 am 42. Alexis:

Would it be inappropriate (or cruel and unusual punishment) to carve out a hole at the base of the skull of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and then use a vacuum cleaner to suck his brains out? Would Ramzi bin al Shibh or Salim Hamdan deserve such a means of execution?

If our government would be unwilling to use brain suction as a means of executing terrorists, one wonders why our government would sanction the practice on other occasions.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:13 am 43. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"Tiller’s killer violates basic Christian teaching. Christians have a commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” Government authorities may decide that war or capital punishment is necessary.”"”"”"”

Just a nitpick, Mark. The commandment, which is Judeo-Christian, and not merely Christian, is “Thou shalt not commit murder.” It was mistranslated either from the original Aramaic to Greek, or Greek to English. There is an important difference between the two phrasings. By its actual meaning, the commandment does not forbid individuals to use deadly force, so does not restrict the right to such use of force to the authorities only. It only forbids the unjustifiable use of deadly force.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:45 am 44. Robohobo:

whiskey: “Point being that it used to be guys that liked the gross stuff. Now it’s girls too.”

No, they always liked the gross stuff it is just that now they can attest to their likes. Sorry, whiskey, you are not being internally consistent.

Mark @ 41: “Christians have a commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” ”

Actually the way I have seen the proper translation is that it is “Thou shalt not murder.” There is a big difference. Context, context. Remember, our society is really the first one where the members did not have to be under constant vigilance to protect their lives. And even that does not hold true in all cases. Oops, I just read R Reilly’s comment but I will let mine stand.

I do agree with you, partly, about Gov. Palin’s comment perhaps limiting her future chances. But, you know, maybe that is something that us libertarian/conservative types have to work on. We must change that narrative so that what she says can be seen in the right light. To quote one of my favorite characters: “I aim to misbehave.”

Jun 2, 2009 - 10:47 am 45. mariner:

For that reason the murders of Tiller and Long won’t just be about a criminal tragedy, as if it were some drug-fueled, mindless crime. They will be about words and their consequences.

Sorry Wretchard, but you’re mistaken about this. The murder of Tiller will be about words and their consequences. The murder of Long will be just an individual criminal act (not even a tragedy).

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:25 pm 46. Chris:

W,
Irony of ironies. You are aware that the “Just Words?” speech by Obama was lifted from Deval Patrick, right? That’s Coupe Deval who apparently has the state of Mass. paying for the vehicles of welfare recipients.

Of course neither one of them actually wrote the speech so you can’t accuse him of doning the full Joe Biden and plagiarizing the thing. Obama is as cynical as they come and it’s all “just words” to him. Power is the elixir that makes it worthwhile.

Jun 2, 2009 - 1:19 pm 47. Cadmus:

Interpretation of words matters more than the words themselves. We should all read Malatesta’s quote again. Violence is infectious. And, there are always those who will find in almost any words justification for acting out their psychosis.

Tcobb
I am very familiar with the drive for Islamic theocracy. It has been my nemesis all my life. Jihad is the way to establish that theology, and I have been on the forefront of fighting it. But, in doing so I have taken the time to learn what they really want and why – it helps develop a counter strategy. I have also had multitude of debates and conversations with Moslems, some extremely heated with fanatics, others civilized discussions with moderates who oppose the mayhem disposed by the likes of Bin Laden.

And, yes I am very aware of the see and unseen parts of Jihad. I have always explained to anyone willing to listen that Al-Qaida is much larger than those with guns. In fact those withy guns are not Al-Qaida, but only its soldiers. That is why they often operate under different names depending on the country they are in and the conditions of the fight.

Al-Qaida means “The Foundation” it is made up of millions of people all over the world who have never broken any laws. They lead seemingly normal lives. But, they provide the financial, logistical, moral and technical support for their soldiers. I know you do not want to call them soldiers, but they do not believe in any worldly states or countries. They believe there should only be one state – Islam (Al Umma), and they are its soldiers.

Do not tell that to the brilliant minds formulating our policies in Washington. They do not want to hear it. Maybe they fear it will make their life harder as they will need to deal with a complicated issue, rather than simply scream GANG OF THUGS and send a few bombers somewhere? Burying our heads in the sand does not make this problem go away.

Jihad is often interpreted in the west as “war”. It all aims to an Islamic theocracy, which I fought against for a very long time. But, most of it is not violent and thus remains under the radar screen of those who are supposed to stop it.

The word means “strive”, and it is short for “Strive in the name of God”. Jihad includes a whole lot of things from regular prayer to proper action to charity to preaching, etc. War is only a small part of it. And, then again according to Islamic teachings, war must be fought for a specific objective, only as a last resort and within humane limits. Wanton killings, blowing up schools and pizza parlors, etc. is nowhere to be found in Islamic teachings.

Do not tell that to Bin Laden, Muhammad or any of the myriad of fanatical murderers out there. INTERPRETATION is the key. Muhammad and many others seem to interpret their command to spread Islam as a blanket authority to kill anyone they feel like.

This kind of extreme violence is not new to Islam. It has ebbed and flowed throughout their history. There is always someone whose psychotic thirst for blood will find words to justify his actions. And, there are many words in the Koran, Hadith and Sharia that are open for such interpretation, which is why violence has been so much more related to Islam than other religions.

Recent violence is born out of the Madrasas, which are popping up like weeds all over the world, and with increasing frequency in the West, particularly the US. They are teaching this kind of murderous killing as a means to destabilize society and terrorize people into submission.

Many establishments would not allow organizations speaking against Islamic fundamentalism to meet at their facilities, as they fear the reprisal. Someone in this string said they would rather “give up their freedom than their life”. They are succeeding slowly.

In the US, fundamentalists hold seminars, summer camps for the young, retreats and much more right under our noses, and all in the name of religious freedom. Yet, we cannot have Christmas tree in most places. Religious Freedom!!

You can preach hate and justify killing others, but you cannot preach love or simply say “God Bless You”.

When you have an Arabic sounding name, you tend to see a lot more than others. They will search the internet and phone books for people to target with their information. I get to see a lot of things you guys do not, as they often assume I am a Moslem.

Back in the 80’s I even received a mass mailer to go fight the Jihad in Afghanistan, and found the document extremely curious. Bin Laden was still our friend then, and Washington called him a “Freedom Fighter”, armed his men, trained them and provided all sorts of help against the Soviets. They allowed him to recruit in the US.

The document was a single sheet of paper, with English on one side and Arabic on the other. The English side included the standard jargon about fighting communism, freedom, liberty, etc. The Arabic side however was not close to a direct translation. It specifically called for the creation of an Islamic state. It specified the Soviets as the most immediate enemy, but also spoke of the need to carry on the Jihad against all enemies of God including the US, which they listed as only second to the USSR.

I was not the only one receiving that mailer. The authorities knew about it, at least from me. Yet, Washington continued to provide support for Al-Qaida for several years. They discounted all similar preaching as immaterial. They insisted that the fundamentalists will soon fade away. The called it a “FAD”. I heard that myself as I argued for the need to stop the spread of this type fanatism.

That is quite a deadly fad. It is like calling the plague, just a bug and ignoring it.

Back then, they acted as if it was merely a localized problem. They accused us of exaggerating the problem to get the US involved in the Lebanese war. How much easier would it have been, had the West stood its ground in the 80’s?

It should not be Muhammad that we worry about, but the people financing the organizations that produce his type. They need to be stopped.

Sure, we hear a lot about Iran. But, that is a small fraction of the problem. Sunni radicals are much more prevalent and violent. And, there are a lot more Sunnis in a lot more places.

Will Washington work up the nerve to ask our “friends” the Saudis to stop financing and building new Madrasas and radical mosques? Will Washington shut down the existing ones? Will it curtail fundamentalist teachings in prisons that recruit our vilest elements into their cause?

Check out the following website for real info on what Islamic Fundamentalists are doing in the US. Do this on an empty stomach. http://www.actforamerica.org

Cadmus

Jun 2, 2009 - 2:55 pm 48. Steynian 360 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] – ITEM – BOOKENDS: “The murder of a soldier at an Arkansas recruiting depot by a Muslim convert is unrelated to the killing of Wichita doctor George Tiller by a man described as an anti-abortion activist except in that both events show how a militant idea can take on human form“ [...]

Jun 3, 2009 - 7:47 am

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