243 Comments

1. Regarding Nishi, Some Asshole, & Other Trolls [Dan Collins]:

[...] Richard Fernandez with another terrific post. Posted by Dan Collins @ 3:38 am | Trackback SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: “Regarding Nishi, Some Asshole, & Other Trolls [Dan Collins]“, url: “http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=14990″ });   [...]

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:46 am 2. enscout:

Richard:
You have a gift for going to the very heart of the matter.
I chill just went up my spine as I recognized the correlations.
These acts are/were both flashpoints in an atmosphere of agitation.
Has the suspect in Tiller’s homicide just fired the first shots in another bloody American civil war?

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:48 am 3. LFMayor:

There were only two opposing sides the last Civil War here… how many little Balkanesque powder kegs are sitting around, waiting for the right spark this time? It’s a nervous time for sure. Maybe Janet N’s got her cassus belli (sp?) now against the right wings, too?

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:56 am 4. David Thomson:

The American Civil War was a horrible mistake. We should have eradicated slavery in a peaceful manner. The British paid off their slave owners—and we should have done the same thing. Unfortunately, Brown’s terrorist activities may have set the wheels in motion so that war was inevitable. Assassinations often seem to have life of their own. The person who commits the killing soon loses control of events. A number of them were unprepared for the eventual outcome. The childishly immature Gavirlo Princip was stunned that his shooting of Archduke Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie resulted in the horrors of WWI.

John Brown naively thought the slaves of Harper’s Ferry were going to revolt. He was also surprised that the men of the town came out to defend the armory. That possibility never crossed his mind. When everything is said and done, Brown hurt the slaves. They would have better off had he never been born. Peaceful evolution is almost always better than violent revolution. We are still paying an awful price for blundering into the Civil War.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:04 am 5. Roderick Reilly:

According to one account (I believe it was published in American Heritage), a cabal of abolitionists that included Ralph Waldo Emerson, helped finance the Harper’s Ferry raid. This is somewhat analogous to prominent liberals in the 1960’s holding fundraisers for the Black Panthers. Emerson and friends were extremely worried about being indicted, but, somehow, managed to dodge a legal bullet.

As to Dr. Tiller’s “crime,” it was the practice of performing late-term abortions. Late-term abortions are very controversial to a majority of Americans, including many who are conditionally pro-choice. It was this practice that made Dr. Tiller such a tempting target for extremists bent on retribution.

David Thomson makes some very good points, but I should put John Brown into context. Prior to Harper’s Ferry, Brown and his sons joined the conflict in the Kansas Territory, which was America’s tuneup for the Civil War. That Brown’s side prevailed was a good thing for the Union, as the South was denied one more slave state. One could say that the Kansas debacle exarcebated things and helped precipitate the Civil War, but it’s more accurate to say that Kansas was a prelude to the inevitable, and it was the slave states who were the most belligerent, and bringing on an intolerable situation.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:20 am 6. Darren:

While I was in disagreement with Dr. Tiller’s practice, in no way do I condone his murder. I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of abortion opponents agree with me, not that the government is likely to ask when considering what the response to this beyond the prosecution and punishment of the killer — and I have no doubt there will be a response. It may not come quickly and it may not be successful at getting through the political process when it comes, but there will be a meta-response to this killing. Tiller was too high profile a figure to, as the WH Chief of Staff says, “waste a crisis”.

There will have to be a smearing of more than just one person to justify new and intrusive legislation. There will have to be more points on a curve to define a narrative in this case. It’s been too long since the Bernard Slepian murder to say that this is a frequent or common occurrence, church shootings are not new and are rarely so limited to one individual in particular. The clinics themselves are some of the most-guarded (in law, if not in reality) real estate in the US, and the murder didn’t take place in the clinic in any event. This seems pretty weak stock with which to make a new and sweeping gun control argument, I’m sure the folks at Brady and VPC have a plan drawn up and sitting in their file cabinets should they be asked to provide one, or should there be another mass public shooting in the near future.

Absent a wider conspiracy, this is a tragic case of one person killing another, with considerable overlay from the wider abortion debate. Nothing short of a complete ban on firearms would have disarmed the killer, and even then a kitchen knife would be just as deadly at short range against an unprepared victim in an unguarded place. Without anything to file RICO charges against, this is just a bad thing that happened to one person. Even something like magazine restrictions are nonsensical, you’re just as dead with ten rounds in you as you are with twenty or more.

With regard to John Brown, this event is a long way from seizing a federal armory and declaring revolution. Committed statists will see in this individual the killer that lurks in the dark heart of every person opposed to abortion. It’s ironic that they see deeply and clearly (clearly enough to legislate, anyway) inside people they know nothing about, and yet overlook the destruction of life that was Dr. Tiller’s open and chosen vocation. It does not excuse his murder in any way, but does clearly show a major fault line between worldviews.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:22 am 7. David Thomson:

“…and it was the slave states who were the most belligerent”

This is the best case against my position. There was a very good chance that the Southern elites were not willing to compromise. They looked upon the institution of slavery as something near sacred. Still, money talks! As far as I know, there were no attempts to “bribe” them.

I also strongly support General Sherman’s march on Georgia. The elites conned poor white men to fight their nefarious war. They needed to pay a direct price.
There are some people who severely criticize the actions of Abraham Lincoln. A number of their arguments seem halfway reasonable. Nonetheless, at the end of the day—the Southern elites are mostly responsible for the death and destruction. And we should never let anyone tells us anything different.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:39 am 8. Kirk Parker:

“The childishly immature Gavirlo Princip was stunned that his shooting of Archduke Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie resulted in the horrors of WWI.”

Oh jeez, not this again. Please: Princip’s action was merely the spark, and would have gone nowhere if not for the immense amounts of dry tinder stacked all around Europe.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:42 am 9. joe buzz:

Interesting correlation, R.D. over at the RealRevo made a similar post yesterday : Was John Brown a hero or a terrorist?

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:55 am 10. David Thomson:

“Oh jeez, not this again. Please: Princip’s action was merely the spark, and would have gone nowhere if not for the immense amounts of dry tinder stacked all around Europe.”

There was a cold war of sorts—but a hot war was not inevitable. Kaiser Bill was a admittedly a bit weird, but there is no evidence that he was seeking any excuse to spill blood. He naively, however, provided a blank check to the Austo-Hungarian government. It took this opportunity to essentially declare war on Serbia. In many respects, Wilhelm II was played for a sucker.

Norman Angell wrote his thought provoking book The Great Illusion in 1910. He convincingly argued that war between the European powers would be utterly ridiculous. They were simply too economically interdependent. I strongly suspect that if the war had been avoided in 1914—any further threat would have disappeared by no later than 1920. The situation would have evolved to that similar to Canada and the United States.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:11 am 11. Chiral:

Seems like a lot of assassinations happen close-distance with lots of people around. Abe Lincoln, Lee Oswald, Benazir Bhutto. That’s three anyway. There are probably more, and now this doctor guy.

It would be cool if the targets shot back – picture JFK turning his piece up at Lee. What a sight!

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:15 am 12. Charles:

May 29th, 2009 9:05 pm
The crisis of unfaith
81. bob:
Aching with amorous love–heheh. I think Lawrence’s essay was humourous too. Poor Walt, never making love to anything but his own hand. I’d ache with amorous love, too. Aching with amorous love, merging, living in igloos with Eskimos. (Sarah Palin seems to like her Eskimo!). But my point wasn’t about amorous love, just contrasting spiritual anxiety against assurance.
……….
That’s just it.

It was the wrong kind of assurance.

Whitman, patron saint of castro street, spent the civil war tending the union wounded. he didn’t learn anything. but he did get some new emotions. grief and regret.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:19 am 13. john lynch:

Killing the doctor was terrorism. It was violence for political ends. It seems to me that explaining it in any other terms serves the cause of the terrorist, i.e. ending abortion by killing and terrorizing doctors.

Otherwise we fall into the trap of “root causes,” when the reality is that one man decided to kill another. I think this is one movement of the oppressed that the media will not mythologize.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:40 am 14. killerwhale:

Please – late term abortion- call it what it is-murder by dismemberment- “partial birth abortions” – What common ground is there? Civil wars are fought when there isn’t anything left but the killing. So, John Brown’s body moldered, and the border raids got under way. I’m wondering what life insurance costs for “abortion providers”? Two disparate views, and frankly, when will the fight to the finish begin? The logic is clear, and the very soul of this country depends on stopping this.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:40 am 15. maineman:

I did not expect the first shot in the coming civil war to be fired at a man who specialized in sucking the brains out of living babies, but it makes sense. A majority of Americans are now against legalized abortion, just as the man who some are calling The Abortion President has now been elected.

The discrepancy between middle class America and the intellectual elite, so evident in the Palin phenomenon, has widened into a gulf, and prospects for using the electoral process to put things back on a healthy course for the country appear to be shrinking with every subsequent Obama news conference.

I’ve thought for some time that the goal must be to so alienate the gun-toting, religion clinging Americans who form the backbone of the republic as to induce this kind of violence and thereby to justify a totalitarian response. This seems tailor made for the use of preventive detention because it can be invoked against any member of the majority of Americans, which is now pro-life.

As for evolution vs. revolution, the revolution has already begun. It was started by Soros, Obama, and the Democrats. Wretchard is right to see this as probably becoming an escalation, an increasing externalization of what everyone who’s not comatose has seen developing for much of the past year.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:57 am 16. Kirk Parker:

David,

Maybe so, but on the other hand maybe Angell’s book just belongs in the same category as The End of History.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:09 am 17. 6-1-2009 | Drive Time Happy Hour:

[...] Gory, Gory hallelujah:

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:21 am 18. John lynch:

We aren’t going to have a civil war. This isn’t the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. I had never heard of this man before yesterday.

Let’s have some perspective, or we’re sounding like the Kos people who thought Bush was a dictator. Gee, Bush left on January 20, 2009. Obama will be gone by January 20, 2017 at the latest. It’s not that long. The country survived a lot worse.

Civil war is terrible, and totally avoidable, so let’s avoid it. The Civil War was triggered when the South lost an election. Let’s not make the same mistake again. There’s always the next election.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:27 am 19. maineman:

There already is a civil war, John, the only question is how “hot” it will get. You and others here write as though most wars, rebellions, and other acts of self-destruction are the result of conscious decisions, aggregate and individual, to go down such roads.

Evil is real, and it travels in vectors. It’s like a darkness that replaces the light whenever and wherever it recedes. We cannot be certain about the events in which we are subjectively involved, but what we are articulating is our sense, now repeatedly confirmed, that evil is on the march.

We have seen this all before, and it has been written and rewritten. At this point it looks like the question is not whether our retreat from moral purchase and self-confidence as a country will cause us to be pulled into whatever darkness is looming but how that is to unfold.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:45 am 20. richard everett:

Whatever your feelings about abortion, Tiller was a murderer. For example, should we have excused and spared Reinhold Heydrich for what he had done and was going to do? Yes, the people of Lidice suffered as a consequence, but when a church group supports and clever lawyers get this man off again and again for what he did, I hardly feel bad about his fate. YMMV

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:52 am 21. Mark:

Via Wiki: “George Tiller was killed on May 31, 2009, shot to death during worship services at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita where he was serving as an usher.”

One reason that mainstream protestantism is in decline is that it has adopted a theology of ‘abundant life’ that does not need law. The Ten Commandments are merely the Ten Suggestions, and the two Great Commandments are sufficiently pliable to accomodate the consciences of a wide range of rascals. There is ample room to welcome to church the dismemberment artist and the anti-abortionist, as long as neither the anti-abortionist or the dismembersment artist makes a fuss. ELCA insurance policies provide payment for abortions, so it’s difficult for the church to say that abortion is a grave wrong, regardless of whatever the psalms say about God knowing you in your mother’s womb.

The shooter is wrong. Abortion is wrong. Perhaps the two sides could eventually have come to some kind of mutually tolerable restrictive policy. But I suspect that now the pro-abortion side will be the winner in the follow-up, with new guidelines rubber-stamped by a Democratic majority and a minority that does not want to be seen siding with a murderer (that is to say, the shooter, not the dismemberer).

If you go to the Union Club in NYC, you will see, in this club and library founded by Frederick Law Olmsted, a portrait of Brown given a prominent place in the library. For many men and women, the war always was about abolition and the belief that all men were created essentially equal, even if they were less than sincere, almost all of them thinking that that one race of people was superior to the other.

Obama has wanted to play both sides, at least rhetorically, but I don’t have any doubt about which side he is going to support.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:59 am 22. dan:

The doctor’s killer is what he is: a terrorist. If he could not understand that this act more than any other would result in more damage to his cause as he sees it, then he should be hanged not only for inhumanity but for stupidity as well. And now we’ll all have to sit and enjoy the smirking happiness of Matthews and Olbermann and innumerable other morons who will now be able to dilute the public discourse on jihadi terrorists by falsely equating the two.

I am so f—ing sick of the non-subject of abortion I could vomit. Why oh Why do I have to live in the America created by the 1960s and 70s.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:04 pm 23. Herb:

There is a book called to the effect “John Brown in his own words” Slim volume, no more than 200 pgs. Texts taken from speeches and letters. I was struck by two things: He was utterly convinced that slavery was the ultimate evil let loose on the world and (Old Testament) God’s own price would be paid for it. And that everything he said about slavery could easily be transferred to the current state of abortion in this country. He was crazy. And he was right.

Part of the stress this causes in the society is that damn near all people have enough discernment to understand the practice for what it is. They cant admit it for political reasons, or if they do admit it cant take any action lest they be called some kind of religious fanatic or any action they take will be stopped by the Govt. There are those on the right who think the GOP should just shut up about it, because it engenders negative feedback in the salons of NY/DC. The stress comes from the difference between the people’s ideas and those of the oligarchy.

Its a case in point that the govt has become so disassociated from the people that the people are beginning to disassociate themselves from the govt. Its a fundamental issue where current policy has not been worked out by the legislative process having been imposed by a court. It is of a cloth with the bailouts, cap and trade, energy policy, gun control, the dominance of administrative law, tax policy, war fighting policy, etc., etc., etc.

The issue that sparks the reaction may not be the murder of this person, it may be something else. I dont know what form the reaction may take. But I think a reaction is coming.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:07 pm 24. joe buzz:

Two soldiers shot at a recruiting center today

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:18 pm 25. Chiral:

> #19 There already is a civil war, John, the only question is how “hot” it will get.

Then that’s not a war. You seem to really want one though.

Maybe if you wrote more dramatically, and keep saying “we” when you really mean “I”, then your supposed war-already-in-progress will become apparent to the non-delusional observer.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:21 pm 26. NullificationNow:

maineman says how hot will it get. Was the killing in Little Rock today of the military recruiters a retaliation? If so it will escalate into a lot of grudges being settled. The purchase of alarming amounts of firearms and ammunition was not an economic stimulus but a pre-curser to domestic upheaval. Unfortunately the one who could provide some reassurance and calm is the leading instigator of potential violence.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:32 pm 27. E. Nigma:

From 1820, until the outbreak of the American Civil War, slavery was the most debated subject in the US Congress. The Civil War didn’t sneak up on anyone, or just “happen”.

Slavery, and the defense of slavery. was the prime cause of the American Civil War. You can find this on web sites citing the speeches made by the “fire eaters” who propagandized in favor of Secession; “First Causes”. Of course, the tariffs and free trade were part of it, but they were handmaidens to the cause of slavery (free trade) versus industrialization (tariffs in the North).

The value of slaves (about 4 million, vs ~ 30 million free Americans) in ante-bellum America exceeded the value of the railroads and the banks in America at that time, combined.

And the difference is?

It is estimated that since abortion became legal, “safe and rare” (heh), that over 40 million lives have been prematurely terminated. To paraphrase Stalin about this sort of thing, it has become just a statistic.
Of course, in the counting, many of these might not have been viable fetuses, and might truly have been medical necessities in lieu of the onset of a miscarriage or stillborn death.
But still, 40 million?

Watching a snippet of the morning sob sisters (Today Show on NBC), the news lady was talking to someone in hushed, reverential tones about this “wonderful” doctor who specialized in late term aboritions.
Moral inversion is now a moral virtue.

I wonder if anyone, any network or news media outlet, will have the moral courage to talk in precise, objective terms about just what this doctor has been doing for decades.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, and murder is a crime, but I think we can be prepared for a total whitewash.

Because we are now living in the days of Orwell.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:40 pm 28. Lesley:

HT: Christopher Johnson, Midwest Conservative Journal, “Moleching It”, March 30, 2009. Moleching It
Remarks of the Rev. Katherine Hancock Ragsdale, Birmingham, AL

July 21, 2007 (Sermon excerpted)

“And when a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion – there is not a tragedy in sight — only blessing. The ability to enjoy God’s good gift of sexuality without compromising one’s education, life’s work, or ability to put to use God’s gifts and call is simply blessing.”

“These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.”

“I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing – who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes — in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You’re engaged in holy work.”

Reverend Ragsdale was recently chosen to be the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School at Harvard.

According to the Search Committee,
“Katherine’s gifts, skills, and experience are an excellent match with the criteria established by the Search Committee, both in terms of the current challenges and opportunities at EDS and the personal attributes we were looking for in a new leader.”

The future of the Episcopal Church is in the finest of hands.

Jun 1, 2009 - 12:53 pm 29. cjm:

if this guy’s death leads to one less abortion then it’s a wash. if it leads to two or more less abortions, then it’s a net plus. and if it leads to one less doctor providing abortions, that is a huge plus. cry all you want, complain to your neighbors, but the math is pretty clear to me.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:20 pm 30. Pajamas Media » Gory, Gory Hallelujah:

[...] Read the rest of the story here. [...]

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:34 pm 31. Jo Mama:

“Wikipedia notes that even in the mid 19th century, the facts were less important than the narrative.”

That sentence should be framed and given a special place in the museum of research irony.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:49 pm 32. John lynch:

-29 cjm

Good thing we’re a nation of laws, not math.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:51 pm 33. AThinkingPerson:

Tiller was murdered in cold blood plain and simple and now he’ll have to answer to his maker for killing unborn babies as will HIS murderer. So much bloodshed when all Tiller had to do from the start was not abort almost full term humans. You can candy-coat it all you want and wrap it in the “women’s choice” banner but it all boils down to the fact that Tiller paid dearly for his choice to kill the unborn as his occupation.

I await the liberal loonies crawling out of the woodwork to tell us how we all condone this. Let me just beat them to the punch and say we don’t condone what happened. It is a tragedy. The saddest part is that it was so avoidable.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:52 pm 34. Herb:

CJM

Thats is simply the other side of the Singer’s utilitarianism. If it advances a good, its good. Thats simply unsupportable.

There are transcendent things. Life is one of them.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:53 pm 35. jw:

The saying “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” is false, a justification of terrorism. Terrorists are “freedom fighters” only in the sense that they want freedom for themselves and for nobody else. See Thomas Hobbes’ LEVIATHAN on their irrationality. Incidentally, terrorism started in the French Revolution with the Reign of Terror led by Maximillian Robespierre, who justified the use of terror to promote virtue in a speech before the National Assembly in February 1794,

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:54 pm 36. Rurik:

FWIW, it appears that the shooter in Little Rock was a black guy, and he two victims included one white and one black soldier, both of who had just completed basic training and were in their home town to promote the benefits they;d received from military training. This could be anti-military, but alternatively, it could be gang or individual grudge, or race-related.
This Ain’t Hell http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=11125 is following this story closely.

These shooting incidents, which do not seem related to each other, illustrate the risk of leaping to conclusions before the facts have emerged.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:55 pm 37. Herb:

ATP @ 33
The proabortion cannot permit that argument. It smacks of personal responsibility for actions, the lack of which is at the core of their justification for the procedure.

Jun 1, 2009 - 1:55 pm 38. Herb:

It would be interesting if the dead one was killed as a result of some romantic or business entanglement. If t’were so, we’d never hear of it, wouldn’t fit the Narrative, don’cha know.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:00 pm 39. Middleman:

The guy was killed in a church. I’m secular, but I have enough respect for sacred ground to keep from doing heinous acts in them. This is straight up terrorism.

How is this act all that different from Taliban types beheading infidels?

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:07 pm 40. Macko:

Hey thomson,

Although this discussion should be more about the murder of a doctor that performs abortion and less about the civil war your talk of the south being more beligerent and how they tricked the poor men of the south into going to war is a little off. If the raids from kansas into missouri were any sign of things to come I would be a bit beligerent myself. The south put an aweful lot of effort into the fugitive slave act to have the republicans announce that it would be history if they won. The way the harpers ferry raid was handled certainly wasn’t very reassuring to the south. As far as sending the poor to fight the war I see your point in how the poor in the north stayed home while all the mill owners went to war.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:07 pm 41. njartist:

God uses the violent to extract His vengeance on the wicked. That is a Biblical principle.

Is murder wrong?: yes. The perpetrator must pay the penalty. Do I grieve for the baby murderer?: no.

I am more angry that the Lutheran church, any church, would provide sanctuary by association with such wicked killers. Tiller’s church became congregation of Satan for having him as member.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:08 pm 42. Brown:

It’s completely absurd to call this murder. It may be accurate depending on your view of life, but it also completely avoids the point.

This is vigilanteism. George Tiller was a murderer who went free because the government considers his victims less than human. To those of us who consider at least late term abortion murder George Tiller deserves as much sympathy as an unrepentant serial killer.

Whatever side of the issue you may be on this isn’t simply murder. This is a failure of politics to find a tolerable solution. It will get worse if a solution isn’t reached. Possibly to the point of civil war, though it’s unlikely to be the sole cause if war comes.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:11 pm 43. Jeff:

I don’t “condone” Dr. Tiller’s murder, but neither am I terribly upset about it. The MOST upsetting part is that it may damage the pro-life movement in America.

But pro-lifers believe, or say they believe, that it’s unjustifiable to take the life of children in the womb. They also point out that it is most obviously unjustifiable when those “fetuses” are late term, as so many of the good Doctor’s victims were.

Most pro-lifers would agree that no government has the right to allow the murder of unborn children. Any more than a government has the right to allow the shooting of Jews for target practice.

If it’s hunting season on Jews, courtesy of the Supreme Court, and some citizen takes it into his hands to shoot an Jew Killer, all decked out in orange, is he a murderer in ethical terms?

Do we tut-tut at him and shake our heads and say we’re against Jew killing but the law must be respected and we do not “condone”, etc.?

I do think that despite the law’s utterly abhorrent failure to protect unborn children, it is still the best shot we have to uphold its fabric, which still does much to protect innocent human life.

But there is a case to be made that once the law steps so definitively over the brink, the job of the citizen is to protect the innocent as best he can.

So: I do not condone the killing of this abortionist. I think it was a bad idea. And under all the circumstances, mildly wrong.

Mildly. Tiller is to be pitied and his soul to be prayed for. But he is far more to be condemned than his killer.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:12 pm 44. Marie Claude:

umm, I thought that may-be PETA did it !

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:15 pm 45. Leatherneck:

I don’t know about a spark. However, this is the fourth Dr. who performed abortions to be murdered.

Let’s recap. Right wing extremists 4, Lefturds who murder little children about 45 million and counting.

Yes Sir! Watch out for those right wing extremists.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:23 pm 46. PA Cat:

There may be another legal question involved in this case. One of Neo-Neocon’s commenters said, “If I am not mistaken Tiller was under scrutiny again because according to Kansas law a partial birth abortion can only be performed in order to protect the health of the mother and there must be a concurring opinion from another doctor who is not financially dependent on the doctor who is going to perform the abortion. I guess the second opinion on Tiller’s abortions were coming from a doctor who was either working for Tiller or substantially dependent on him financially.”

I haven’t been able to find any further information about whether Tiller was under investigation regarding second opinions. Perhaps one of the legal experts here can shed some light on this.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:27 pm 47. David Thomson:

“This is vigilanteism.”

And this is the number one reason why the murder of this abortionist literally threatens the very foundations of a viable society. I could car less about him. He was a vile and despicable human being—even though he apparently thought otherwise. But we must be very wary when individuals take the law into their own hands. The bonds holding together society are very fragile. It’s hard to close Pandora’s box once it has been open.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:41 pm 48. Grey Fox:

“47 David Thomson:

‘This is vigilanteism.’

And this is the number one reason why the murder of this abortionist literally threatens the very foundations of a viable society. I could car less about him. He was a vile and despicable human being—even though he apparently thought otherwise. But we must be very wary when individuals take the law into their own hands. The bonds holding together society are very fragile. It’s hard to close Pandora’s box once it has been open.”

Bingo. That is why it is the State and not the individual that bears the power of the sword. That is also why one of the requirements in Just War Theory is that warfare be conducted by a legitimate authority.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:51 pm 49. maineman:

I don’t suppose the decision of citizens to take the law into their own hands has anything to do with having a tax cheat as Treasury Sec, a president who doesn’t like the U.S. Constitution that much, or a Supreme Court nominee about to be confirmed on the grounds that she will be “empathic” (i.e. lawless).

Chiral #25,

I don’t know if the problem is my writing or your mind-reading, but I can assure you that I don’t want what seems to be happening to be happening.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:57 pm 50. OsoPardo:

#32 John Lynch: “Good thing we’re a nation of laws, not math.”

In my mind that is the question we need to answer. Are we a nation of law as you assert?

My understanding was that Dr. Tiller was performing abortions long past the point of viability. I also understand that these late term abortion were against the law. In my mind, this makes Dr. Tiller guilty of murder, but the political class, and law enforcement, looked the other way. Dr. Tiller’s lawlessness was excused, and even celebrated.

Daily, we see others break our laws with little seldom a raised eyebrow by the people we’ve elected to uphold our law.

Hospitals in the American southwest are overflowing with very young girls having babies. Some of these girls are 13-15 years old. When was the last time you heard of a statutory rape charge against any of the fathers?

Businesses knowingly hire illegals who commit identity fraud. Very few of the political class care to prosecute either the business managers or the illegals. The political left screams racism if the topic is even raised but, virtually no one gives a crap about the poor guy who’s identity was stolen.

Obama treats us to a parade of potential cabinet members who can’t seem to pay their taxes. I really love the Timothy Geitner story. This guys is smart enough to run the entire economy, but can’t figure out how to pay the taxes he owes.

A nation of laws indeed.

Jun 1, 2009 - 2:57 pm 51. Jo Mama:

Whatever side of the issue you may be on this isn’t simply murder. This is a failure of politics to find a tolerable solution. It will get worse if a solution isn’t reached. Possibly to the point of civil war, though it’s unlikely to be the sole cause if war comes.

Al Qaeda welcomes you with open arms brother. They’ve been saying the same thing, if only good Christians like you would open their ears and listen. Its not murder when you kill someone you accuse of being a murderer, and its the government’s fault for not adopting your political viewpoint. Indeed, I think Osama Bin Laden claims that “it will get worse if a solution isn’t reached” almost in every video he makes. We’re working towards a global world of wonderful terror.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:00 pm 52. Chiral:

Fret over what to call it, or decidedly assert it’s whatever. What’s the point?

As JL pointed out, most people never heard of the guy. They care about abortion like they care about roadkill. It’s sad, and something to avoid, but not something to stop driving over.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:01 pm 53. Bonzo:

#45 Leatherneck:

Perhaps leftards need to apply for concealed carry?

Everything in this obvious cold-blooded murder narrative speaks more about those who hate America than about a misguided vigilante. The Obama-Brownshirts (i.e. America-haters) are pissing on the rule of law with each breath.

The only way the brownshirts can be contained is by the States and time is running out. ‘They’ have a few years left to rule and know it.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:03 pm 54. LarryD:

FYI: The 1860 election was a four-way race, the Republicans won the White House with a plurality and did not gain control of any house of Congress.

The South started to succeed before Lincoln was sworn in. By the time Lincoln was inaugurated, seven states had left the Union and seized a number of Federal military posts. Fort Pickens and Fort Sumter were under siege.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:03 pm 55. Roland:

I agree that Tiller’s killer was wrong to take the law into his own hands but I find it hard to feel to much sorrow at his death.

As the Bible says:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. ~Galatians 6:7

The shooter will have to answer to God for his actions as well.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:04 pm 56. Fletcher Christian:

The doctor was operating in a perfectly legal fashion, and the person who killed him was a murderous scumbag for whom the electric chair is too merciful a punishment. Essentially, he was murdered for having an unpopular point of view.

The perp will probably get off with a few years in jail if that. Not enough. Not nearly enough.

I am reminded of the case (a couple of years ago now) in which a late-teenage Irish girl had to make herself a criminal(by having the abortion in the UK) in order to secure the abortion of a foetus with no brain. Apparently, Irish law (no doubt essentially written by the Pope) requires that any foetus no matter how unviable be brought to term. Presumably so that some celibate in a black dress and a silly hat can splash water over it during its few seconds of life. If you can call it that.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:04 pm 57. dan:

Lesley – wow that is incredible and disgusting. Who could think such a thing, even if one doesn’t want to criminalize abortion? Sick.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:07 pm 58. john lynch:

-50 Oso
He was tried and acquitted not long ago. he wasn’t doing anything illegal according to the courts, and they make the decision.

The trimester system in Roe was replaced by Planned Parenthood v. Casey back in the early 90s.

We can’t kill people for doing something that’s legal and still claim to support democracy and law.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:12 pm 59. Jaci:

“Most people in the pro-life camp aren’t rallying to the support of the suspect…. That implies that some are. Can you name even one?

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:18 pm 60. Marcus Aurelius:

What ground there was for this distinguished consideration shall duly appear in the natural course of this lecture. I wish however to say just here that there was no foundation whatever for the charge that I in any wise urged or instigated John Brown to his dangerous work. I rejoice that it is my good fortune to have seen, not only the end of slavery, but to see the day when the whole truth can be told about this matter without prejudice
to either the living or the dead. I shall however allow myself little prominence in these disclosures. Your interests, like mine, are in the all-commanding figure of the story, and to him I consecrate the hour. His zeal in the cause of my race was far greater than mine — it was as the burning sun to my taper light — mine was bounded by time, his stretched away to the boundless shores of eternity. I could live for the slave, but he could die for him. The crown of martyrdom is high, far beyond the reach of ordinary mortals, and yet happily no special greatness or superior moral excellence is necessary to discern and in some measure appreciate a truly great soul. Cold, calculating and unspiritual as most of us are, we are not wholly insensible to real greatness;
and when we are brought in contact with a man of commanding mold, towering high and alone above the millions, free from all conventional fetters, true to his own moral convictions, a ” law
unto himself,” ready to suffer misconstruction, ignoring torture and death for what he believes to be right, we are compelled to do him homage.

http://www.archive.org/stream/johnbrownaddress00doug/johnbrownaddress00doug_djvu.txt

However, Frederick Douglass realized if he got too close to the “burning sun” his wings would melt and he and his cause would come crashing down.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:18 pm 61. OsoPardo:

58 – John Lynch

I agree, we can’t kill people for something that’s legal. But you miss my point.

We’re not a nation of law if some laws are upheld and others are ignored. We’re not a nation of laws if some people are above the law and most are not. We’re not a nation of law if some ethnicitys are excused from the law while others are punished.

We need to decide. Are we still a nation of law or not?

If we decide we’re a nation of law, then the laws are to be upheld by everyone, no excuses. If we’re not a nation of law then we’re destined to anarchy.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:19 pm 62. paul_unalaska:

Vigilante, possibly.

The pro-choice, pro-life debacle is so that an accord, agreement will never be likely.

I truly wish hospitals would provide a one time ‘free’ service to either snip a man or tie a woman’s tubes.

My sister works in Labor & Delivery and recently told me of a 30 something homeless woman, pregnant with her 8th or 9th child.

After doing up the blood work, she was found to have crack in her system. I asked my sis if the authorities, PD came to the hospital. She told me ‘No’.

Instead a Child advocacy-like group came to the hospital to discuss the dangers of drug use while being pregnant. Shortly afterward the pregnant woman left the hospital.. free as a jaybird. Oh, and the medical costs from her ‘visit’? We’ll all feel it as our premiums go up..

So again, a one time tying or snipping. Perhaps an I.Q. test before flirting with ‘familyhood’? KIDDING!

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:20 pm 63. Bonzo:

David Thomson said:
we must be very wary when individuals take the law into their own hands. The bonds holding together society are very fragile. It’s hard to close Pandora’s box once it has been open

———
I would venture that all here care nothing about the murderer who killed with a gun. Hang him.

The Pandora’s box was opened by the D’rats who take law into their hands to ‘rule’, who hate society and care only for power.

The Civil War sucked even beyond the lack of antibiotics. WW1 was a mess. The depression was a mess, WW2 sucked. The future looks bleak but we can worry mabout that tomorrow.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:25 pm 64. john lynch:

-61 Oso

OK, it’s bad to pass laws that aren’t enforced except arbitrarily.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:28 pm 65. Tom H:

“To his patients and many pro-choice supporters, he was a hero committed to women in need of help.” This is the stickler. Ya gotta be kidding. 3rd trimester abortions , and the women need help? Anyone who still thinks Tiller was doing these narcissists a favor is simply not in touch with reality. Reducing the supply (abortionists) is not the answer, Change hearts.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:28 pm 66. gus3:

#47 David Thomson:

“this is the number one reason why the murder of this abortionist literally threatens the very foundations of a viable society.”

You actually dare use the word “viable” in your statement?

Somehow, I doubt your irony is intentional.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:30 pm 67. mac:

I’m sorry that someone had to kill this man to stop him from committing what I consider to be cold-blooded murder.

One of the reasons why I hate and despise the Democrats so greatly is their complete refusal to understand what evil they support. How can we say we live in a civilized society when Tillers kill the most innocent while the lefties bend every rule to keep the most heinous murderers from facing the death penalty?

It’s not a hot civil war yet, but the process of complete divorce between the political sides in this country is far advanced and near complete. Wretchard wrote some time back about the “test.” Just as sure as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, one is coming. When it does, there will be lots of people who will make their opposition to this government extremely clear. If the government tries to forcibly suppress that opposition, all bets are off.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:31 pm 68. Bonzo:

61. OsoPardo: “…We need to decide. Are we still a nation of law or not?…”

I guess it depends on your definition of ‘we’.
Perhaps Obambi interprets the Constitution (We The…) as a rubber stamp: ‘oui’.

Oui, oui-can, something to piss in?

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:31 pm 69. trangbang68:

Fletcher Christian, your citing of the Irish case is as poor an example as it will be when The wizened shrews of the Abortion as Sacrament
movement paint the shooter as your average person opposed to abortion.
The doctor was operating in a perfect legal manner. So what, so were Eichmann, Himmler and that other esteemed doctor, Mengele. The shooter was a misguided fool who threw his own life away and harmed the cause he claimed to support. It almost makes me wonder if he wasn’t some sort of provocateur.
But calling Tiller anything but the merchant of death he was tells me more about the bleakness of your own soul. Plunging forceps into the skulls of fully formed babies is hellish. Tiller grew rich on the blood of innocents and gagged on it. Nice church there, Lutherans. I wonder if Tiller was a big giver.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:34 pm 70. OsoPardo:

64 – John Lynch

Thank you. The road to our destruction will be paved with arbitrary law enforcement. I have trouble imagining that our society can exist much longer at the current level of law enforcement.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:34 pm 71. Moogie:

#56 Fletcher Christian: “Essentially, he was murdered for having an unpopular point of view.”

No, I think he was murdered for what he did as a physician – for his actions, not just his beliefs.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:36 pm 72. billslayer:

I think I’m gonna line up with the “this really isn’t a big deal” position on this. I’m sorry but this story really doesnt have legs. I’ve come to see that abortion issue as “decoupled” from the larger socio-political issues of our time. There are few sane people on either side of that debate or at least people sane enough to discuss the issue. This would have happened regardless of any of the political circumstances that have happened over the last 10 years. This is a standalone issue.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:39 pm 73. trangbang68:

I wonder if the Little Rock shooter was a worshiper of the Moon God and if so if the media will tell us.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:39 pm 74. billslayer:

Killerwhale…you win quote of the day with “Civil wars are fought when there isn’t anything left but the killing.” BRUTAL!

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:39 pm 75. OsoPardo:

68 Bonzo,

I agree, Obama appears to have been one of the cheerleaders for the debasement of our laws and the constitution. The Dems have raised identity politics to an art form. What a sickening mess we seem to be heaping onto ourselves.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:42 pm 76. Meryl:

Tiller was a murderer. And so was the guy who killed him.

That’s the difference between the pro-abortionists and the pro-lifers:

We think that it was a murder for this doctor to be put to death the way he was.

Do pro-abortionists think that it is murder for babies to be dismembered?

Pro-lifers are consistent in this matter. A murderer killed a murderer. None of the murders involved are justified in any way.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:44 pm 77. Moogie:

#69 trangbang: FYI: The Reformation Lutheran Church is not recognized by the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod of which I am a member. The church I belong to would not have been a comfortable fit for Dr. Tiller, as we are strictly a pro-life, conservative church.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:44 pm 78. fred:

I don’t approve of what Dr. Tiller did for a living, and I don’t approve of his murder. I am very concerned about how this is going to be used against the anti-abortion movement, conservatives, and the 2nd Amendment.

There just isn’t much positive to take away from this incident. I’m not sayin’ that I mourn Dr. Tiller’s death. I don’t. How could I? I did not know him personally and I was not at all enamored of his grisly work.

Jun 1, 2009 - 3:53 pm 79. Evil Pundit:

#73 Trangbang — decide for yourself.

“Police say Abulhakin Muhammad, also known as Carlos Bledsoe, is charged with capital murder and 15 counts of terroristic acts after a shooting at an Army/Navy recruitment center on Rodney Parham Road in Little Rock.”

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:03 pm 80. Leatherneck:

#68, Bonzo,

You miss my point Sir. Why the outrage of this late term abortion? 70 years? When so many children are murdered every day in America, and the rest of the world. With our tax money!

I do not condone the murder of this puke, but why the outrage? What should bother us more is illegal aliens driving drunk, and murdering. Perhaps, the gangbangers who have declared war on our culture should be an outrage.

Do you see my point now?

Not this scum bag.

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:16 pm 81. steveg:

The Little Rock assassins name is Abdal Hakin Mujahid Muhammad. Do not expect to hear anything else pertaining to this murder.

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:17 pm 82. whatalodacrap08:

C’est la vie for Tiller the Killer.

I don’t condone his murder any more than I condone what this ba$stard did for a living, but I’m not going to lose any sleep about it either. Tiller considered the life of the unborn to be as worthless as his murderer so obviously considered Tillers life to be.

There is a certain symmetry to it all, eh?

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:20 pm 83. Self-hating Boomer:

I’d like to see some hard statistics on this, but I strongly suspect that there are far more people living in the US (not all of them Muslim) who think that random attacks on Jews are justified than people who think that this rather narrowly targeted attack is justified. If the larger condoning of killing (i.e. Islamic, and particularly antisemitic terrorism) isn’t tearing the fabric of society apart, why should this relatively minor matter do so?

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:21 pm 84. Allan Erickson:

This murder is a tragedy. It is also a tragedy how people move in to use it as a political hobby horse.

http://allanerickson.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/abortionist-dr-george-tiller-killed/

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:22 pm 85. Jo Mama:

I’d like to see some hard statistics on this, but I strongly suspect that there are far more people living in the US (not all of them Muslim) who think that random attacks on Jews are justified than people who think that this rather narrowly targeted attack is justified.

Why bother with the statistics? It looks like you’ve already made up your mind. Are all of your issues this easily answered? By answers you pull out of your butt?

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:31 pm 86. Willie G:

I lived for many years in a jurisdiction where “He had it coming” was a viable defense tactic.

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.

For the more philosophical, we are men of free will – you have the right to do as you please, but you should remember that someone else may not agree with you…and you’re ultimately responsible for your own defense. There are reports that Tiller’s clinic was fortified and that he rode in an armored vehicle for quite some time. I wonder why he quit?

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:38 pm 87. Evil Pundit:

More on the Arkansas shooting. Definitely a Muslim convert, apparently angry about Iraq and Afghanistan.

I wonder if he was triggered by the news of Tiller’s murder?

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:48 pm 88. trangbang68:

Jo mama, His observation was well thought out based on much empirical evidence (a number of attacks on Jews in the US- the synagogue in Seattle off the top of my head) as well as the world wide rise of anti-semitism and heated rhetoric from Muslim clerics. Additionally the left in the USA has burned troops in effigy, regularly vandalized military offices and sabotaged transport of war materiel. Additionally, there have been incidents of tire slashing at polling places and other acts of political terrorism.
On the other hand Tiller’s assassin is one of a handful of anti abortion vigilantes. There is much more concern for violence from the left/Muslim axis than the pro life community.
You’re the one ignorantly spewing not Boomer.

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:51 pm 89. D Foster:

Just as both sides of the Political Class in the 1850’s played Politics with the Slavery and States Rights issues, the Political Class of today and even back to the 1960’s, play Politics with Abortion.

Why would there be a need for late term abortion. Why can’t the Courts make a decision on this subject.

The current bunch of Elite Political Class are maybe worse than the 1850’s. Because the Federal Government is far more powerful, and anti Individual Rights.

With a large amount of Americans being run over in the political fight between the Left and Left/Right. The Conservative and Political Right have no representation in the debate. This will cause problems in the future and will need to be addressed by the Political Class. Estimate the non represented voter to be more than 30% of the Voter, and growing, as the Obama Government takes the United States farther and farther LEFT. Anti Business anti Growth.

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:57 pm 90. Andrew:

Fred:

“I am very concerned about how this is going to be used against the anti-abortion movement, conservatives, and the 2nd Amendment.”

Only if people take the bait from the left and start thinking they need to explicitly denounce or disassociate themselves from the guy-when they were never associated with him to begin with! The left has a very specific talking points memo out (which, by strange incidence, began to appear right about the same time as the DHS RW extremist report)-take any act of violence where the perpatrator is known to have said or done anything even remotely connected to conservative views, then start trying to portray the perpatrator as “one of your own”. Pastor of Muppets was follwing that meme with the cop killer in PA, now the self-righteous buffoon at LGF is falling all over himself doing the same (”He’s one of your own”)

Let them engage in that sort of idiocy-I think enough Americans have enough sense not to fall for that 6 degrees of separation nonsense. They’ve been doing it ever since (maybe before) they tried to blame the US for “supporting Saddam” simply because Rumsfeld was photographed shaking his hand. It doesn’t work and conservative should not waste their time taking the bait and trying to defend themselves from it. The liberals will make fools of themselves with this if we just let them go and try to portray the majority of the country as psychos because of a single murder commited by one unhinged individual.

Jun 1, 2009 - 4:57 pm 91. sheesh:

Here we are again. Yet another right wing lunatic . . . secessionist . . . Freeman . . . anti-government zealot . . . . religious terrorist . . . tea bagger . . . 2nd Amendment activist . . . yet another unarmed victim.

And the right Twitters away . . .

Doctor George Tiller was aborted today in his 204th trimester – aren’t paybacks a bitch – Punch

oh HAPPY DAY! Tiller the baby killer is DEAD! – Samantha Pelch

George Tiller the baby killer was shot dead this morning. God bless the gunmen who hopefully won’t be caught. – readnwatchchris, Creedmor. NC

I know, I know, nobody here acts like that:

91. fred:
Guys like me eat shithead Leftists like you for breakfast. And it would not matter the manner of fighting or the tools used.

103. WhyamInotsurprised?:
As for gutless and not backing it up, just try me bro! I’ll kick your bitch ass back into the hole you crawled out of. What a dumbshit!

105. steveg:
A war on Nancy boy urban snobs, that would last about a day until they cried ‘uncle’.

I know, I know, nobody here pulled the trigger . . . yet.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:00 pm 92. Kevin:

39. Middleman:

The guy was killed in a church. I’m secular, but I have enough respect for sacred ground to keep from doing heinous acts in them. This is straight up terrorism.

How is this act all that different from Taliban types beheading infidels?

For the Taliban it is all perfectly legal for them to behead infidels, the koran, hadiths, and every islamic court of jurisprudence demands it. There is no justification in western law or the Bible for what Tiller’s killer did. Tiller’s killer will face civilian justice, the Taliban will only face justice if we ever find them and send in the soldiers. Big difference, learn it.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:03 pm 93. Dave Surls:

“The doctor was operating in a perfectly legal fashion”

So were antebellum slaveowners.

“and the person who killed him was a murderous scumbag for whom the electric chair is too merciful a punishment.”

Electric chair sounds about right to me. I reckon it’ll do the job. Of course, they don’t use the electric chair in Kansas, but it would work o.k. if they did.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:11 pm 94. BettyBlue:

Andrew, yes, I have to agree. The talking points are all set up, and those who are against abortion will be put on the defensive, having to explain who they were not associated with this guy, whom they were, of course, never associated with in the first place.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:20 pm 95. bogie wheel:

I’ve come to see that abortion issue as “decoupled” from the larger socio-political issues of our time. There are few sane people on either side of that debate or at least people sane enough to discuss the issue. This would have happened regardless of any of the political circumstances that have happened over the last 10 years. This is a standalone issue.

It can be a “standalone issue” only if at least one of the following assumptions behind the above assessment is true:

(a) abortion is not murder
(b) even if abortion is murder, it still doesn’t matter … there is no cosmic justice that will be dispensed, even on a nation whose government sanctions the murder of tens of millions of its own citizens

I would say that both (a) and (b) are assumptions not only not proven, but exceedingly dangerous to the life of a nation if the assumptions out to be wrong.

Before assuming that the little trail of black powder you are observing is “decoupled” from the powder keg, and that therefore it’s perfectly safe to hold your family picnic right next to said powderkeg, you need to be absolutely, positively, 100% certain that you are incontrovertably and irrevocably correct in your assessment.

So please do tell:

When does human life begin?
When does human personhood begin?

The absolute, 100% incontrovertably and irrevocably correct answers, please.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:23 pm 96. Self-hating Boomer:

Trangbang, what made me think of that is that – again absent absolute numbers – I’m sure that the number of unibomber and ALF casualties is on the order of the number of abortion vigilante casualties – you can count both on one hand. I find it a bit hard to believe that one is a crisis and the other is a fluke.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:24 pm 97. Warren Bonesteel:

Well…this could be the “John Brown” incident I was expecting. I’m, not sure we’re there, yet, though. There are a number of gross similarities, though.

I’m also expecting a “Boston Massacre” incident within the next three to eighteen months. Like Kent State, but worse.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:27 pm 98. Jo Mama:

My understanding was that Dr. Tiller was performing abortions long past the point of viability. I also understand that these late term abortion were against the law. In my mind, this makes Dr. Tiller guilty of murder, but the political class, and law enforcement, looked the other way. Dr. Tiller’s lawlessness was excused, and even celebrated.

Your mind is not a court of law. Two consecutive grand juries found no evidence of law-breaking. By the way, if you can tell me the condition of each woman in that Tiller treated, and the condition of their fetuses, then I’ll concede the point that your moral outrage is understandable. I don’t at the moment think so; you’re just regurgitating things you’ve heard elsewhere and eager to see a man die for purported crimes that you have no way of knowing occured.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:28 pm 99. Joshua:

Dave Surls, #93: Electric chair sounds about right to me. I reckon it’ll do the job. Of course, they don’t use the electric chair in Kansas, but it would work o.k. if they did.

Of course, if this guy believes killing Dr. Tiller is his ticket to heaven (which wouldn’t surprise me at all), then that would just speed him on his way there. On the other hand, even letting him rot in prison for the rest of his life would be nothing more than a trivial inconvenience next to the eternal paradise he presumably believes awaits him afterward. Whether or not such beliefs are actually true is of secondary importance at best; what really matters is the incentives such beliefs create in the believer.

That, in a nutshell is the trouble with trying to dissuade or extract justice from religious fanatics of any stripe – they live by an entirely different set of incentives from the rest of us, namely the metaphysical carrot of eternal salvation and the metaphysical stick of damnation above all other concerns, incentives that no rewards or punishments that secular society have to offer can possibly compete with.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:30 pm 100. Someone75:

I don’t condone killing Tiller and I’m not ready to flat-out abolish abortion (I’d do it to save the mother’s life), but I will say that Tiller was no saint. He had it coming.

It was only a matter of time for that guy anyway.

I have a lot of liberal friends (despite what I’ve been called here, I’m a centrist) and a lot of them agree that Tiller was doing something illegal. Even if they say he didn’t deserve to die, they have no sympathy for him.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:32 pm 101. BettyBlue:

A “Boston Massacre?” I hope not, Warren, though I’m afraid you might be right.

Is this a “John Brown” incident? Whatever the case is (and I think it’s a case of a lunatic murdering a man with an unpleasant profession) I think it’s going to be used as one. Those of us who are anti-abortion, and support life, need to be careful about going on the defensive. Andrew gives some good advice; do not take the bait.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:33 pm 102. Someone75:

BettyBlue:

You’re seriously whining about “talking points”? The Right uses stupid talking points just as often as the Left. It’s how the game is played. Please spare us your sanctimonious garbage.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:34 pm 103. fred:

sheesh, Wretchard’s blog is much too highbrow for the likes of you. This is the big leagues, and you’re a Single A player. The talent scout who hired you should be terminated for poor scouting. And Markos Moulitsas did nothing to get you ready for the major leagues.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:37 pm 104. Middleman:

Kevin,
“This day the LORD will deliver you up into my hands, and I will strike you down and remove your head from you. And I will give the dead bodies of the army of the Philistines this day to the birds of the sky and the wild beasts of the earth, that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel”
1 Samuel 17:46

You were saying?

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:38 pm 105. SteveB/Colorado:

#65 Tom H. “Anyone who thinks Tiller was doing these narcissists a favor is simply not in touch with reality.” And you are in touch? You’ve been able to examine all the medical records in Tiller’s office in order to generalize like that?

#67 Mac: “One of the reasons I hate and despise the Democrats so much is their complete refusal to understand what evil they support.” And so for you, hatred is a Christian virtue? You’re entitled to your religious views in calling abortion evil. But what of your fellow citizens who don’t believe that human life begins at conception?

I’m not a Democrat. I’m both a conservative and life long Republican. I don’t believe there is any right for other citizens to impose their personal religious views on all of society. I also don’t support use of big government, powered by big religion, to impose certain religious views on the private reproductive decisions of families.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:41 pm 106. shaui-jan:

took you long enough( around 31 hours),i can see why…you really put the effort in.

“I know, I know, nobody here pulled the trigger . . . yet”

a flare for the dramatic.

you quoting WhyamInotsurprised?:” I’ll kick your bitch ass back into the hole you crawled out of. What a dumbshit”

look apparatchik,dispensing an asswhooping is a far cry from executing someone.you surely have been beaten up many times,you know the difference.

as far as tiller being an “unarmed victim”,it is technically true…but how many of the eight+ month old fetuses he aborted know karate?

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:46 pm 107. Cowboy:

Something’s terribly rotten in Kansas. The abortion fight morphed out-of-control and really has surpassed all belief — and that was BEFORE Dr. Tiller got shot again.

This fight has exposed a great deal of corruption between Planned Parenthood, the governship and Dr. Tiller’s very, very deep-pocketed abortuary. It involves a pesky Attorney General named Phill Kline who launched over 107 indictments of Planned Parenthood and 30 against Tiller, then Kline’s eventual ouster due to Tiller’s monied influence, then the new AG dropping everything, and all kinds of murky efforts and to supress the evidence Kline had built.

Tiller’s late term abortion practice is, in fact, illegal in the state of Kansas and everyone knows it. One cannot perform a late-term abortion there except when the health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, and a concurring opinion of a doctor who has no monetary stake in the abortion must be acquired. Tiller openly drove a Mack Truck through this health-of-the-mother exemption, and he bragged about it, and he bragged about how the money he derived from his practice kept the political wheels greased for himself. He boasted he’d performed over 60,000 abortions past 24 weeks (these can run up to $5,000 a piece) and used that money to insulate himself poltically.

He was no great and good hero, always more racketeer than anything else.

When the rule of law no longer means anything, as it ceased to when Tiller bought it openly, results like this murder are completely unsurprising. Some dude, angry that the law and civil society has failed at a critical task, will take matters into his own hands.

Sunday’s result was inevitable given the level of corruption in Kansas over this. In the gunman’s thinking, it was left as the only resort.

What a tragic powderkeg!

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:47 pm 108. BettyBlue:

Someone75, I’m not gonna spare you anything! Last time I checked, this country still has freedom of speech! Deal with it.

Spare us the moonbatty whining, and playing the victim card.

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:51 pm 109. BettyBlue:

Someone75, are you really upset because I stated it’s not a good idea for pro-lifers to be baited into defensiveness, and having to defend themselves, when they’ve done nothing wrong? That seems a pretty mild position to take, I think. Are you really upset because you think pro-lifers AREN’T going to take the bait?

Jun 1, 2009 - 5:57 pm 110. mac:

Yes, Steve, hatred of evil IS a Christian virtue.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:05 pm 111. Pat J:

Let’s mot forget Fox New’s culbablity in this murder.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:06 pm 112. Bilgeman:

#15 maineman:
“I did not expect the first shot in the coming civil war to be fired at a man who specialized in sucking the brains out of living babies, but it makes sense.”

Heh…and yet, if I had to pick one person who should have died in a new civil war, then the fellow who performs late-term abortions would be at the top of the list, above all others.

And now the masks can come off the Right…I reckon that the pro-choicers will run out of abortion doctors before the pro-lifers run out of people ready and willing to shoot them.

I told these Leftard dummies that the Right wing way was the Death Squad, always has been…and they all probably poo-poohed the idea.

Are they poo-poohing now?

Grant George Tiller’s murderer at least ONE plaudit…he took careful aim, and no one else BUT his target was injured.
It wasn’t random, and it wasn’t spray and pray.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:12 pm 113. sheesh:

103. fred:

Guys like me eat shithead Conservatives like you for breakfast. And it would not matter the manner of fighting or the tools used.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:12 pm 114. fred:

sheesh,

You aren’t very original and you are an amateurish provocateur. You’re on the computer down in your quarters in the basement and yo momma’s calling for you. She wants to know what you’re up to. You’ve been a naughty boy and holding out on her on the room and board, because she doesn’t know you’re being paid by Axelrod’s organization.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:19 pm 115. BettyBlue:

Yes, let’s not forget Fox News’ culpability! And Bill O’Reilly’s! And let’s not forget Mother Teresa, she was pro-life, too! She helped pull the trigger!

/Okay, sarc. off.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:23 pm 116. sheesh:

112 Bilgeman . . . You must have tremendous admiration for James Earl Ray, John Wilkes Booth, SIrhan Sirhan, even Oswald, though he got a little messy with Connely in the front seat. Hey, that was a helluva shot that killed Vicki Weaver, wadn’it! Boy howdy I’ll say it was . . . one right through the old noggin. And that was at a distance! Didn’t get the two-fer with the baby, but hey, he did bury one in the chest of Kevin Harris. Gotta give it up for the Fed, am I right?

You’re a genuine sociopath.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:26 pm 117. bogie wheel:

I don’t believe there is any right for other citizens to impose their personal religious views on all of society.

First off, let’s be intellectually honest and admit that whichever side gets its way, so to speak, it will be regarded by the other side as “imposing” its views on all of society by means of laws that everyone is supposed to follow. If you believe that your privacy is being “imposed” upon by religious conservatives, try for a moment to put yourself in their shoes and imagine how they feel “imposed” upon by what they see as legally sanctioned murder via the spurious reasoning of a handful of unelected SCOTUS justices. And additionally, the “imposition” that abortion represents to the baby.

The view that religion has no place in informing one’s stance on political issues is mostly a 20th-century invention. It’s a view that would certainly have been alien to our Founding Fathers, the vast majority of whom believed religion and morality to be the twin pillars undergirding our nation (both as government and as society).

Rather than driving the expression of citizens’ foundational beliefs from the public square, I think it’s healthier to let everything get put on the table. Religion, law, and philosophy are ALL useful to the effort of answering the questions at the heart of the abortion debate (defining human life and human personhood). WHY do we believe what we believe? Let’s debate, rather than quash debate by labeling certain viewpoints (esp. those thousands of years old and held by a large percentage of the population) as too anathema to be voiced.

As someone who opposes big government, you surely understand that your sovereignty of conscience is one of your most precious possessions as a citizen, and your ability to enjoy your inalienable rights (of which life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are only three) rests upon constant vigilance and the upkeep of restraints upon government. Like it or not, and you don’t appear to like it, but it is nevertheless true, the religious right is not the biggest threat to your freedom today, and dismissing their opinions as unworthy of consideration in the marketplace of ideas, just because those opinions are religiously based, is not going to set you boundlessly free. Quashing the views of religious conservatives, however, *is* a highly effective means of increasing the influence and political power of the left, especially those with totalitarian tendencies (but I repeat myself).

We are going to be governed by laws passed by a group of people whose worldview as a group tilts towards one of the following:

“There is a God, and I am not he.”
“There is a God, and I *am* he.”
“There is no God.”

Which mentality is most likely to lead to tyranny? That being the case, wouldn’t it be prudent to avoid handing power to people who subscribe to that mentality?

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:27 pm 118. james:

With all the things written about Brown it is exceedingly odd that Wikipedia is the source here for information about him. This is not a serious piece.
John Brown, much more so than Ft. Sumter, was responsible for the Civil War. His raid threw such fear and distrust into the South that civility became impossible from that time on. Sumter was a result of Brown’s raid.
The fact that Brown was right about slavery says nothing about him as a man or the justification for murdering the people that he murdered. It also says nothing about how slaves would have fared under his paternal gaze. The Abolitionists cared nothing about, and did nothing for, American blacks after the war was over. Like liberals from the beginning of time, it was all about them.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:32 pm 119. Войска ПВО:

11. Chiral writes:

“Seems like a lot of assassinations happen close-distance with lots of people around. Abe Lincoln, Lee Oswald, Benazir Bhutto. That’s three anyway..”

I dunno, Chiral, the shot that killed Kennedy and injured Connolly, was made from at least 100 yards. Hardly a proximity shot like Boothe v. Lincoln. Even if you subscribe to the Fruit-Loop Grassy Knoll theory, that was at a substantial distance. If Kennedy had a piece on him, then he woudl have been pretty good to react and get his assailant with a handgun.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:35 pm 120. james:

Sheesh,
Everyone knows that liberals don’t throw punches and run from bar fights. If they can’t file a lawsuit or send anonymous emails full of four-letter words, then they do nothing. Everyone you knew as a kid who got beat up in the schoolyard turned out liberal. Don’t make stupid comments about how tough you are. You can take it from me, you’re not.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:38 pm 121. sheesh:

120. james:

I refer you to post #91 . . . try to keep up. And stop playing with yourself.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:45 pm 122. Dave Surls:

“Of course, if this guy believes killing Dr. Tiller is his ticket to heaven (which wouldn’t surprise me at all), then that would just speed him on his way there.”

That’s o.k. by me. God is a big boy, he can handle murderers, no problem.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:51 pm 123. G. Clarke:

The untold back story of the Civil War was Lincoln’s announced plan to raise the federal tariff (then the main source of Federal income) to protect Northern Factories from competition with Europe. This plan was something that, economically, would have required the poorer South, who traded cotton for European goods, to disproportionately pay for the Growth of the Richer and stronger North. (This was the same fear that plagued Jefferson and Madison in their political fights with Hamilton). The elites of the South saw secession as the obvious economic response, even though Lincoln’s pre-war rhetoric was clearly not threatening their Slave System. Lincoln, Grant and Sherman, all mid-westerners, obviously feared a retaliatory tariff being imposed on Northern goods and foodstuffs once they were shipped down the Mississippi, if American balkanization was permitted. Fortunately slavery was expunged with the crushing of the rebellion (required and enabled by the simple fact that the waters of the Ohio, Missouri and Missippi Rivers all flowed southward, past Vicksburg).

Thus the precipitating cause of the Civil War was taxation, not slavery, as evidenced by the place the Rebels first sought to seize — Fort Sumter, a federal tariff-collection site in the Charleston, SC harbor. Once slavery was eradicated after Appomatox, the myth arose that slavery caused the war, and it was an easy myth to promote (because not entirely false) though this only tells part of the story.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:52 pm 124. bobbcat:

111. Pat J: “Let’s mot forget Fox New’s culbablity in this murder.”

Can we forget the amazing level of stupidity displayed by your post? Perhaps it’s too much to ask you to provide evidence…………..

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:54 pm 125. wretchard:

No threats of violence, obscenity or personal invective please.

Jun 1, 2009 - 6:56 pm 126. G. Clarke:

Cowboy # 107

Thanks for the info. Very informative. I did not cry for Jeffery Daumer when he was beaten to death in prison and I will not cry for Tiller who defiled his MD license by torturing 60,000 babies to death. That’s just how I feel about serial killers. But with apologies to Seinfeld I can only add with regard to the avenging vigilantes: “Not that there’s anything right with it.”

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:03 pm 127. Pee Wee Herman, Community Organizer:

To all trolls:

Your dog is ugly, and your mother sucks cucumbers because she can’t get the real thing. And Jerry Garcia is still dead.

I really told them, didn’t I?

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:06 pm 128. tanstaafl:

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, like John Brown’s raid on Harpers Ferry, has significance far beyond the act itself.

Does everything have to be come to cast in David & Goliath terms ?

Tiller was a third rate physician who found a niche in performing abortions. As a “specialty” he came to performing late term abortions.

He had many enemies and one, very likely unstable individual, shot him in the foyer of his church.

There’s more to this story ?

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:07 pm 129. Dave Surls:

“Thus the precipitating cause of the Civil War was taxation, not slavery…”

Hogwash.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:18 pm 130. Dave Surls:

“And Jerry Garcia is still dead.”

Not as long as I have my Grateful Dead recordings. Jerry lives on.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:31 pm 131. Fantom:

117. bogie wheel:

Kudos… that will leave a mark.

Certainly I have little to add(and nothing to your post) to the discussion other than the duel considerations.

One, that vigilantism exist as a just action when government fails it’s duties. We can argue the cause and point at which such occurs. In this case/cause …that the majority.. or even a very large minority see Tiller as a monster might be clue #1.

Two, that a terrorist targets a whole population.. not a specific individual. Would that one assassinated Dr Mengele or Pol Pot be so considered?

Any rate, on a moral plane I place this as just another “late term’ abortion. No more no less.

BTW bogie, in your final trifecta of choice.. I would put Obama as a solid # 2.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:34 pm 132. maineman:

There’s more to this story, tans #128, because abortion is the great genocide of our times. Failure to come to grips with that is a failure to come to grips with reality and reason themselves, which will have to be demonstrated in due course.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:42 pm 133. tanstaafl:

I believe, maineman, that abortion is a great genocide and I’ve come to grips with that knowledge.

50 million+ human beings, almost all simple elective abortions, in the US of A since the 1973 passage of Roe v. Wade.

I also believe (Cowboy #107 fleshes out the background of Tiller & politics in Kansas, some of which I wasn’t aware of) that George Tiller was a lousy medical practitioner who rightfully deserved scorn.

But a single individual enabled by some spurious law passed 36 years ago, I refuse to grant that the status of important story.

I guess it’s personal.

Jun 1, 2009 - 7:53 pm 134. killerwhale:

Does anyone remember the Spanish Civil War? It was fought with such ferocity that no prisoners were taken. Killing abortionists won’t stop the coming civil war. After attending a tea party, I realized that time is running out on this great experiment that we call America. When people no longer trust the basic instincts of the democrats, and realize that they have to go, well, then, stout hearts will get things done. A common leftist misconception is that we should be above violence, when history plainly teaches that bloodletting is the natural state of affairs. What else can be said to untermenchen who see nothing wrong with legalized dismemberment? The only solutionto the Nazis was to kill them off. They were the true subhumans, and when you think about it, they share some of the same blind spots that the democrats share. They both practise eugenics, and kill the most helpless. So, when the entire staff of a “clinic” is taken out and shot in a ditch, then civil war is near. Tiller’s staff is complicit in the murders, and they will help someone else do the same. But, if they are laid out on the side of the road, well, perhaps others will get the point. Murder and slaughter have been a necessary part of the fight against evil, because the only cure is the death of the evil. Can you really believe that leftists support such an evil man?there is no common ground, so the evil must be destroyed, and it must be plainly denounced.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:09 pm 135. Warren Bonesteel:

On Google News, under ‘right wing extremist’ you can find more than 20,000 stories on Tiller. Most of those stories are demonizing anyone to the political right of Obama, Reid and Pelosi.

In case you hadn’t noticed, the Next American Revolution has already begun.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:12 pm 136. Jo Mama:

Tanstaafl, what I find disturbing about you is this supposed “fleshing out” by Cowboy, is nothing more than his opinion.

Tiller’s late term abortion practice is, in fact, illegal in the state of Kansas and everyone knows it. One cannot perform a late-term abortion there except when the health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, and a concurring opinion of a doctor who has no monetary stake in the abortion must be acquired. Tiller openly drove a Mack Truck through this health-of-the-mother exemption, and he bragged about it, and he bragged about how the money he derived from his practice kept the political wheels greased for himself. He boasted he’d performed over 60,000 abortions past 24 weeks (these can run up to $5,000 a piece) and used that money to insulate himself poltically.

Before I believe someone a murderer, and before I feel gratified that someone has killed that person, I want PROOF. Reasonable proof. Tiller withstood two grand jury indictments, that means that two seperate groups of ordinary and local citizens, not corrupt bureacrats, did not find that he had violated any laws. What’s more, do you think that someone who was only in it for the money [and absurdly, the bragging rights], would have gone through all the trouble you people put him through–being shot twice, the tons of legal bills and harrassment, the continuous threats on his life?

Whatever you might think of what he was doing, its obvious THAT TILLER THOUGHT that he was doing something noble and necessary. He was in church when he was shot, for christ’s sake. Isn’t it possible, that you’ve listened too much to the Cowboy’s of the world, who never back there case with anything concrete and not enough time investigating for yourself?

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:13 pm 137. Pee Wee Herman, Community Organizer:

Grateful dead recordings. Now there’s a crime against humanity worth going to war over.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:16 pm 138. fred:

I’m guessing that the kind of money that this doctor was making every year may give a clue as to the socioeconomic status of his clients. I’m betting that these people have pretty good means. I would be very surprised that his clients were poor or working class women.

At this point in our nation’s history, I would suggest we take a good hard look at who the big advocates of unlimited abortions are and what their career curriculum vitae are. These people are the elites of society, media, industry, and politics. And somehow I don’t think the majority of those cases really have anything to do with truly dire medical necessity to save the mother’s life.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:24 pm 139. tanstaafl:

Jo, Baby, for 24 years I lived in Wichita Ks, less than 2 miles from Tiller’s clinic. My impressions of the man and of his operation were formed during that period.

I followed the recent court case relatively closely and understand that the prosecution failed to make the case that the paid female 2nd opinion doctor (required under Kansas law) was a rubber stamp for approving late term abortions.

Whatever you might think of what he was doing, its obvious THAT TILLER THOUGHT that he was doing something noble and necessary.

Sweetie, I don’t think you can channel the man, especially now. I seem him as a third rate physician, in the bizness for the profit.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:30 pm 140. Fantom:

138. fred:

You have a point. It is likely that Tiller the Killer was aborting liberals. Can one consider that anything less than a noble porpoise?

I may have to rethink my position on this.

MA PA … owweeeee.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:45 pm 141. Dave Surls:

“Grateful dead recordings. Now there’s a crime against humanity worth going to war over.”

LOL.

We Deadheads don’t want war…but, I’ll fight like a cornered wildcat, if necessary.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:45 pm 142. Linda Mae:

Why don’t people remember that Obama voted to allow late term abortions plus to refuse medical help to those fetuses which were viable. The law made it illegal to help them – just to let them die.

I haven’t a clue why late term abortions would be performed. If it were a medical reason, well, I don’t know what I’d do. I’d still respect the wishes of the woman involved and the doctor who put her as his patient first. It is complex.

I want all readers in this post to start thinking about George Soros who is calling for assisted suicide for all as part of his “new world order.” He doesn’t mention euthanasia but I doubt he would not support it. He has given millions to Eastern European countries in order to promote abortion. It is his idea of a perfect one payer national health plan. If you are healthy – then good for you. If you are sick, then, here’s your options. Wait a year in pain or just do the right thing and take your own life. If you become incapacitated then he’ll do it for you.

Should Obama now worry about having a bulls eye on him as did Teller?

It is an emotional situation but it is not right to murder. Abortion is legal. You explain it to me, if you can.

Jun 1, 2009 - 8:58 pm 143. Fantom:

Slavery was legal too.

As far as B.O. I hope no one kills him. He is not worth it. Think of it.. streets named after the moron.. raised far above his stature by the leftist media. Uhhgg.

In fact if anyone kills The One.. it will be Sorro’s using his trained teleprompter idiot for all he is worth.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:09 pm 144. misanthropicus:

Richard, intersting points you make, yet I beg to differ about the essential one – why so much fuss about a homosexual affaire that went awry?
This happens now and then, and we shouldn’t allow this directed re-politization on the abortion/ anti-abortion lines.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:10 pm 145. Michael Steele's Brother in Law's Bodyguard:

Linda Mae, are you serious?

You say you don’t know why late-term abortions would need to be performed. Has it ever occured to you to find out? Do you think that in certain rare instances [such abortions make up less than one percent of all abortions nation wide]? That in some cases, its almost assured that the infant will die during delivery, or shortly after in incredible pain? That both the mother and baby may die?

Did it ever occur to you to get informed?

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:47 pm 146. Pee Wee Herman, Community Organizer:

Ok, college know-it-all hippy, just what are these circumstances, and how common are they? Spell it out in detail, including links to reliable sources (no the NARAL website doesn’t count) on the actual numbers of such cases per year.

Please enlighten us with all your smart brilliance and all that stuff, o smart one. I anxiously await a smart download of smart smartness.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:58 pm 147. Pee Wee Herman, Community Organizer:

And btw, “look it up” isn’t an acceptable answer.

Jun 1, 2009 - 9:58 pm 148. I take the long way home.:

Mr. Fernandez,
I have to say that some of your commenter’s are having a hard time realizing right from wrong. I know murder is wrong. This man took the law into his own hands and committed murder and for that he cannot possibly be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Any pro-life activist will have a hard time explaining how he is pro-life, but killed a person when he gets to the pearly gates. I think his name will be missing from the book of life when he tries to enter heaven. I am no judge, but it’s a given.

To kill is wrong, and you should not kill. To protect yourself when cornered is different, and I would not just stand there while the bad guy kills me.

In this story both guys seem to bad, the murderer of coarse, and the Doctor, but it was wrong to take his life, and the murderer will pay the ultimate price for it.

I certainly do not think a civil war will come from this. Socialism, Marxism, Communism, it will be those words ending in ism to cause it, that is just my opinion, because that is where the anger will come from. The anger will rise up from the slow witted ones who do not know we are already a Socialist country.
I know we are a Socialist country, and I know George Sorros won, and I know I cannot change the bible.
I agree with 141 though.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:00 pm 149. Rachel Peepers:

The majority of Americans are anti-abortion (pro-life)because the fifth commandment says, “You shall not kill.” Although, the following makes pro choicers crazy, the fact is, leading edge medical science can now prove that life begins at conception.

But this gives no one the moral right to kill Dr. George Tiller or any other physician who performs the abortion procedure.

In fact, the killing of Dr. Tiller is probably legal and moral murder. In other words, it was premeditated.

The argument that Dr. Tiller’s death is somehow justified because he will perform no more abortions is specious and totally wrongheaded.

Those who believe in God also should know that God gives no one the right to take another’s life except in situations of self defense, in both the microscopic view and the macroscopic.

Which is why the Church is against capital punishment in virtually all circumstances.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:08 pm 150. trangbang68:

I nominate this statement for the stupidest statement of the week:

Whatever you might think of what he was doing, its obvious THAT TILLER THOUGHT that he was doing something noble and necessary. He was in church when he was shot, for christ’s sake.

He made money doing what he did. How anyone can read “noble and necessary” into infanticide is off the moral Richter Scale. Give it a rest,Jo. Everywhere you take this argument makes you look more foolish.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:13 pm 151. Cowboy:

To everyone who keeps insisting on teaching that what the killer of Tiller did was wrong, I don’t think there’s any opposition to that idea.

Consensus on this board seems to be: what the killer did wrong. But his victim was wrong, too.

Bad mojo situation.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:20 pm 152. Fantom:

“148. I take the long way home.:
Mr. Fernandez,
I have to say that some of your commenter’s are having a hard time realizing right from wrong. I know murder is wrong. This man took the law into his own hands and committed murder and for that he cannot possibly be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Any pro-life activist will have a hard time explaining how he is pro-life, but killed a person when he gets to the pearly gates. I think his name will be missing from the book of life when he tries to enter heaven. I am no judge, but it’s a given.”

Something about Sodom and SanfranSIcko comes to mind.. a few firstborn. Then the kid never said the Old man was wrong.. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”.

I think it comes down to… “The only degree of separation is just cause. Murdering innocent lives, versus saving innocent lives by a “murder”.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:27 pm 153. Fantom:

149. Rachel Peepers:
The majority of Americans are anti-abortion (pro-life)because the fifth commandment says, “You shall not kill.”

Actually it reads.. “Thou Shalt not Murder”.

Killing and “Murder ” being different based on self defense and defense of others vr’s an offensive action.

One could argue a proactive killing is not murder if it saves innocent lives that the killed one would have taken.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:33 pm 154. Michael Steele's Brother in Law's Bodyguard:

Pee Wee….I don’t have time to go into all of your questions, but here’s the answer to the frequency:

Results: A total of 848,163 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2003 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.7% decline from the 854,122 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2002. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 241 in 2003, a decrease from the 246 in 2002. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years for 2003, the same as for 2002. For the same 47 reporting areas, the abortion rate remained relatively constant during 1998–2003. During 2001–2002 (the most recent years for which data are available), 15 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. One death was associated with known illegal abortion.

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women who were unmarried (82%), white (55%), and aged <25 years (51%). Of all abortions for which gestational age was reported, 61% were performed at <8 weeks’ gestation and 88% at <13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2002, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at 15 weeks’ gestation, including 4.2% at 16–20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks. A total of 36 reporting areas submitted data documenting that they performed and enumerated medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 8.0% of all known reported procedures from the 45 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

This is from the Center for Disease Control. Heaven knows, given the level of ignorance I see here, what you think of them; but rest assured, they are considered mainstream by most sentient Americans.

Jun 1, 2009 - 10:34 pm 155. CapitalistforChange:

Great column. “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”…Sounds good but it’s not applicable here. “Terrorism” is the use of potential, random violence to advance an agenda or surpress the opposition agenda. By that description, this act was the work of a Terrorist. Whatever your political leanings, this doctor did not break the law. We are a nation of laws. Period. This pattern is par for the course when a Dem is elected POTUS. (Is it me or had anyone heard anything from Randal Terry since Clinton was in office?) There is NO difference between an “Islamic Extremist” and the guy who went into a church and executed a man. I DEPLORE the fact that late term abortions are legalized procedures. Unfortunately, it’s permissable in Kansas. Work to change the law or move.

Jun 1, 2009 - 11:18 pm 156. Leo Linbeck III:

MSBiLB,

So, doing the math means that in 2003, 11,874 late-term (>21 weeks) abortions were performed. [That's taking the 1.4% (a percentage greater than one percent, BTW) and multiplying it by 848,163 total abortions, if I show my work.]

Now, since you are clearly knowledgeable in this area, you must also know that the CDC statistics are incomplete. For instance, the Alan Guttmacher Institute, in a 2006 paper by Lawrence B. Finer and Stanley K. Henshaw, pointed out that state reporting to the CDC varies widely, and some states (including, notably, California) do not track abortion statistics, and therefore are excluded from the CDC estimates. Their analysis resulted in an estimated number of abortions in the US in 2003 of 1,287,000.

This means that the number of late-term abortions in 2003 probably lies in a range from 11,000 to 18,000, a range that would probably strike most Americans as higher than they expected. And yet, according to a 2008 Gallup poll, 72% of Americans (and 75% of women) believed that late-term abortion should be illegal.

Perhaps these facts help explain why many people are so disturbed by the current state of late-term abortion law.

Cheers,
L3

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:01 am 157. Fletcher Christian:

What disturbs me about the “pro-lifers” is their absolutism. Apparently, the sperm and the egg have no rights but, 30 seconds later, the fertilised egg is fully human with all the rights appertaining thereto. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

There are many issues around this. One is that according to the above, anyone who implants an IUD is an abortionist (the device prevents implantation, not fertilisation) and can be killed with impunity. Another is the thorny (for people who are not religious nutters) issue of just when a foetus becomes a human being. Another is the issue of severely deformed or genetically damaged foetuses – see the Irish case I mentioned earlier. Another is of course the health of the mother.

“Pro-lifers” think the issue is simple. It isn’t.

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:25 am 158. TomF:

What most people on both sides forget is that something being legal doesn’t make it right. There are also plenty examples of the reverse as well. Legality and morality often coincide, but not always. We often ask the wrong question, “Can I?”, when we should ask, “Should I?”. Yes, I would prefer that the law would coincide with the morality of protecting the life of babies. It doesn’t, which places the responsibility on the individual. The individual will also have to live with this decision in life and in death.

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:56 am 159. bob:

I agree with #157, it’s not a simple issue. When does life begin? At conception? Some have argued, perhaps even before. We may be hyperdimensional beings of some kind, who, for our own improvement perhaps, have chosen to become mired in time. It is not a simple issue by any means.

Jun 2, 2009 - 1:03 am 160. SeanLA:

No one mentions the irony of an abortionist being killed in his church where he is an usher. HA! Last week Newsweek ran as its cover story: The End of Christian America. Indeed.

Jun 2, 2009 - 1:05 am 161. RightwingHippyChick:

Why is the doctor being blamed at all — it’s the women who decide to kill their child, and as we all remember bitterly, if they cannot do it safely, they will do it any old way they think it’ll work. The doc just makes sure their bad decision doesn’t turn out to be suicide.

It’s better to figure out why women don’t want kids anymore (or can’t afford them) and change the actual problems instead of faffing around with attacking the results of the broken system and the few people who can be bothered to stem the tsunami of misery.

Women who don’t want kids will always resent them, and those unloved, neglected kids often turn out the very people society has problems with. So, be careful what you wish for…

Jun 2, 2009 - 1:14 am 162. vivo:

The problem here is the idiotic society we live in.

Men and women (boys & girls?) don’t use anti-conception methods.

Many religions forbid anti-conception.

Millions of UNWANTED babies are born.

Men easily divorce themselves from pregnancies, wanted or unwanted. Women are the sole deciders about their babies fate and care.

An analogy:

A person kills another person.
Sentenced to death by judge or jury.
Executioner kills prisoner.

A woman gets pregnant.
The woman decides an abortion (jury).
The doctor executes the abortion (executioner).

Who made the real decision here?
The woman.

A criminal lunatic who follows this thinking will go on a rampage and kill all women?

Jun 2, 2009 - 2:34 am 163. maineman:

Bob and Fletcher, your argument pertains to whether or not birth control is moral. I’ve never heard anyone argue that an aborted fetus is not alive.

Usually, the defense of abortion has to do with the viability of the fetus, not whether it is alive or not. That argument, too, is specious, since infants are not independently viable for a long time after they are born.

The matter of abortion is overly complicated to its supporters because it requires doublethink, holding two diametrically opposed opinions at once. The deliberate taking of innocent life for the convenience of others is very difficult to justify without twisted logic.

And Vivo, do you really think that it is better for a child to be killed than to be born to an inadequate or ungrateful parent? That sounds like twisted logic of the first order.

Jun 2, 2009 - 3:53 am 164. RandyChandler:

Setting aside for a moment the moral outrage and heady pontifications, does anyone think a new late-term abortionist will be rushing in to replace Tiller? I doubt it.

Will the murder of Tiller ultimately result in a considerable decrease in the number of late-term abortions performed? Most likely.

Would the sacrifice of two lives (Tiller and, in a way, his killer) be justified by the saving of hundreds or even thousands of innocent lives?

Jun 2, 2009 - 4:36 am 165. David S:

Tiller spent his life selflessly and heroically assisting women who faced difficult circumstances. His killer, and those who pretend this murder was justified, are not citizens. They are terrorists. Tiller saved the lives of countless young women, and is a hero.

Go ahead and celebrate – it makes it easier to see who here is truly free of moral qualms. This peaceful non-violent physician was shot to death in his church. Your approval reveals that Christianity is on the same path as Islam.

We are a nation of laws, but without brave men like Dr. Tiller, the law fails us. Pro-life is a joke.

Peace.

DS

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:18 am 166. Bilgeman:

#116 blog-slave:
“You’re a genuine sociopath.”

You know what, freak-boi? You sound like you’re scared.

Running around this thread and puffing out your pigeon-chest and vouching on how you “eat people for breakfast”.

You’re frightened, I’m a sociopath,(right?), so I can SMELL the fear coming off of you through my monitor.

This is the world you have helped wrought, mutant. Welcome to it…don’t like it much, though, do you?

Did you think politics was some kind of internet hobby? A parlor game without any consequences whatsoever?

Is it finally sinking into your diseased brain that it is anything BUT?

Brother fred is absolutely correct, you really aren’t smart enough to play in this league.

Maybe you should stay in your truck-stop toilet stall 24/7 and leave the intertoobz to people who have an inkling of what the stakes of this endeavor really are.
And from there you can then “eat” as many people as you like through the hole in the wall that is your proper place and your only link to the outside world.

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:28 am 167. Barry 0351:

“HELL!” both these useless foks were and are bloody killers and murderers I don’t waste no pity on either one, I damn sure ain’t gonna sing the praises of either, “baby butcher or doctor terminator” both rate low on the human scale.
lets hope these two can continue their arguement in hell.

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:37 am 168. Chiral:

> 119. Войска ПВО

Oswald was assassinated by Jack Ruby. My reference to JFK was confusing but coincidental.

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:56 am 169. SteveB/Colorado:

#117 bogie wheel: “quashing the views of religious conservatives is a highly effective means of increasing the influence and political power of the left, especially those with totalitarian tendencies….” After reading many of the posts on this thread, I can easily conclude that the far right is equally oriented towards absolute political power. I fully support freedom of speech, but some of the threats being made by absolutists on this thread are real, real scary.

“religious right is not the biggest threat to your freedom today…” As one who tracks the writings & speeches of the likes of James Dobson, Gary Bauer, Donald Wildmon, Franklin Graham and others of that nature, I beg to differ. I have a much larger fear of the religious right gaining power in this country than I do the far left. After all, won’t Rush protect us from the left?

#161 Righwinghippiechick: “it’s better to figure out why women don’t want kids anymore (or can’t afford them) and change the actual problems…..” Of course, that assumes that the private lives of women who don’t want kids becomes your business, or the business of the many anti-abortion men posting on this thread.

See what Vivo says in #162. How do you deal with religions who strongly oppose contraception of any kind except “abstinence.” Do those persons just give up sex? Some of the “problems” you discuss involve poverty, lack of education, lack of appropriate sex education in the schools, job training programs for poor women, etc. In other words, we’re talking welfare programs here, which many on the right don’t like (tea parties come to mind here). Sort of reminds me of another generalization about some “pro-lifers:” life is sacred only between conception and birth.

“women who don’t want kids will always resent them and those unloved, neglected kids…….” A bit of a generalization, but one that makes some sense. Women can’t be forced to bear children, altho some on this thread would have it that way. Recall what happened in Romania under communism, where abortion was banned as it interfered with creation of new workers.

I have to wonder how many of the anti-abortion posters on this site have adopted unwanted children (great kudos to those who have practiced what they preach). How many “pro-lifers” support church & secular programs oriented towards taking care of unwanted kids? Any of you guys involved in Big Brothers or Big Sisters programs? Do any of you guys support battered womens’ shelters? How do you guys feel about adequate sex education in schools, or the Catholic Church’s position on contraception.

Moral of the story: how many of you anti-abortion posters are really walking the walk today? And I don’t mean making threats against those you disagree with?

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:02 am 170. mac:

David S.,

You refer to “Brave men like Dr. Tiller.” Yeah, lots of bravery there killing babies. Remember when you…individuals…on the left used to use that epithet against American soldiers? How come it was such a terrible thing THEN but not now?

There are literally MILLIONS of people here in the United States who would be happy to adopt infants. I personally know at least six people who have gone to China to adopt because their chances of an adoption in either the United States or Europe were so slim.

Those people, and the many others like them, were desperately hoping for the chance to raise a child. They were completely willing to spend the time, effort and large sums of money it took just for a chance at the privilege of raising a child.

The fact that these children were not theirs and of a different race didn’t matter in the slightest to them. All they wanted was a baby. The fact such people exist in large numbers proves there were LOVING HOMES for Tiller’s victims to go to–if they had been given the chance to go there.

Those “young women facing difficult circumstances” chose deliberate murder over every other possible solution, and Tiller did the deed. Moreover, he did it with people like you, who willingly embrace the horrific murder of living babies, cheering him on. Their blood is just as much on your hands as it is on Tiller’s and the women who sought him out.

You…individuals…on the left think it is terrible to have a proven killer executed by the state but haven’t the slightest qualm about having the most innocent executed without the slightest consideration.

You, and those who think like you, are beneath contempt. You abortion-loving lefties, in your hearts, are truly the “baby killers” you claimed to hate so long ago.

As ever with your ilk, it was all just lies with obtaining power as the ultimate goal.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:02 am 171. RandyChandler:

David S., if Tiller is your idea of a brave hero, then I can only assume you are guilty of the same depraved indifference to human life as he was. Which, by the way, makes your condemnation of Christianity as soulless as it is absurd.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:06 am 172. Kevin:

104. Middleman:

“Kevin,
“This day the LORD will deliver you up into my hands, and I will strike you down and remove your head from you. And I will give the dead bodies of the army of the Philistines this day to the birds of the sky and the wild beasts of the earth, that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel”
1 Samuel 17:46

You were saying?”

Where is the army of the Philistines? Oh yeah, there is no army of the Philistines, they have disappeared to history. Try again.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:13 am 173. newton:

Obviously, the man who killed that “doctor” at his church never read Hamlet…

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:29 am 174. newton:

I must remind you that John Brown was quite celebrated at the beginning of the Civil War. Do any of you know about that song, “John Brown’s Body”? You know – the song that was the genesis for “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”?

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:37 am 175. jjkrn:

60,000 murdered children in Tiller’s “office”

i for one won’t loose a nano second of sleep

oh..and his family enjoyed a millionaire lifestyle because tiller dismembered live children…

i pray the other 2 so called MD’s who murder children pack up and close shop

approx 100 children didn’t get dismembered since tiller’s execution

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:42 am 176. Middleman:

Kevin,
The army of the Philistines has disappeared into history, just like much of what is in the Koran. As much as I hate defending it the Koran, Christianity doesn’t exactly have clean hands. Certainly the western world has the enlightenment and reformation to thank for reflecting on wrongs of the past, however it doesn’t mean that Christianity has completely washed away it’s own sins.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:47 am 177. trangbang68:

Tiller spent his life selflessly and heroically assisting women who faced difficult circumstances. His killer, and those who pretend this murder was justified, are not citizens. They are terrorists. Tiller saved the lives of countless young women, and is a hero.
Go ahead and celebrate – it makes it easier to see who here is truly free of moral qualms. This peaceful non-violent physician was shot to death in his church. Your approval reveals that Christianity is on the same path as Islam.

We are a nation of laws, but without brave men like Dr. Tiller, the law fails us. Pro-life is a joke.

Words fail me to describe what a repugnant comment that is. In your amoral judgment, Tiller the Killer is brave, heroic, self sacrificing, peaceful, non violent. What a pathetic worm you are, Steve and how utterly Hitlerian is your mindset. Margaret Sanger would be proud of you.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:01 am 178. Manxman:

Linking the John Brown incident and the murder of Tiller reminds me of Langston Hughes’ Raisin in the Sun poem.

The denial of the dream of justice for Blacks and the dream of justice for the murdered unborn are equivalent. There was an explosion with John Brown – and there was an explosion in the case of the Tiller killing. Justice will not be perverted forever.

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?

Or fester like a sore–
And then run?

Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over–
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:21 am 179. RV:

I will say that for the record, I am against late-term abortion when the baby and mother’s life is not at risk. But my goodness, people on here really, actually believe that some women just get up and decide to have an abortion, out-of-the-blue, during their 35th week? My goodness. To believe that, you would have to ignore that it is illegal in all 50 states. There has to be a life threatening risk to the mother or the fetus in order to have a late-term abortion. That is the law in all 50 states, and Tiller followed that law. He would only see women that were reffered to him by physicians because of massive complicatinos with the pregancy.

I have known people who have gone through late-term abortion. Their child pretty much had no brain. None. She knew something was wrong when there was no movement in her womb. They went to several doctors to confirm, spent many, many nights praying, and then had the fetus removed. But I can see many of you on here would have forced her to go to term, to go through with the birth, and listen as the fetus gasps out a breath and then dies. This would have destroyed her, physically and emotionally, but yeah, I can see that some of you have no concern about that.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:35 am 180. SteveB/Colorado:

#170 Mac: “there are literally MILLIONS of people here in the US who would be happy to adopt infants…..I personally know at least six people…..” There is a large difference between millions and six. Where are you getting your information. And in my post #169, I asked what YOU and your fellow anti-abortion posters on this thread are doing to help unwanted children.

#170 Mac : “you abortion loving lefties, in your hearts, are truly the baby killers…..As ever with your ilk, it was all just lies with obtaining power as the ultimate goal.” And how are you different? You and your fellow posters seem determined to impose your personal religious & moral views on American society. How are you different from radical Islamists & the Taliban? Sounds like obtaining power over citizens’ personal and private lives is your goal.

#177 Trangbang68 : “Words fail me…..” That’s obvious, when you attack David S. for his views, and then refer to Steve (me?) as a “pathetic worm.”

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:41 am 181. Kevin:

Middleman,
The koran is an open ended commandment. It does not put wars and killing in a “historical” context. That is why those who commit such atrocities under the banner of islam can do so without fear of retribution. The koran along with the supplemental writings as well as the four islamic courts of jurisprudence all support the actions of those killing in the name of islam. The wars and killing done in the Old Testament are historical, they are not open ended. Don’t confuse flawed people using a religion to exact their own perceptions with a “religion” that calls upon its followers to kill the infidels. Again, Christianity does not call upon its members to kill non-believers, but that does not mean that people who call themselves Christians are not capable of killing, that is a consequence of being human. And as you have pointed out, Christianity has allowed itself to be debated over and over again, islam does not allow for such debate.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:47 am 182. geoffgo:

Jo Mama@136,

If you and I are diametrically opposed on a single issue, then at least one of us is wrong. We can both be wrong of course; but reality allows for no grey. In nature everything is black and white. Mankind equivecates at its peril. Been so forever.
Mankind either perceives reality correctly, or suffers the consequences.

Absent acceptance of this simple rule by both parties, any discussions between parties are fruitless. Rufusal to accept this rule by one, or both parties frequently leads to violence. When the parties are nations, it’s called war.

Genocide is NOT are religious issue! Neither is “infantacide.” Where is there any middle-of-the-road position between citizens who believe the premeditated murder of the unborn is fundamentally and morally wrong (excepting cases that pose a mortal threat to the life of the mother), and those who don’t? If those who don’t (pro-murder plus the laws that enable it) are “right,” then they don’t have to stop at the slaughter of the unborn. Everyone can then be defined as fair game, by the laws of those in power; ie, LEGAL GENOCIDE.

Any sentient being should immediately see the moral depravity of Pro-Choice.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:48 am 183. Fletcher Christian:

#163 maineman – Many, probably the majority of “pro-lifers” are indeed absolutist. In other words; a foetus no matter how early, all the way back to a single-celled zygote, is fully human and may not be disposed of for any reason whatsoever. A significant proportion of those also believe in banning contraception. Monty Python’s “Every Sperm is Sacred” sketch nailed it on the absurdity of that view.

This is one extreme. The ultra-feminist “it’s not a baby until it’s born” brigade is another. Neither is correct in any sane view, and where the line is drawn depends on many factors – life and health of the mother is one, viability of the foetus is another. The Irish case simply reminds us of the sort of mindless cruelty that results from absolutism.

An example might serve. Eclampsia is a severely life-threatening condition that usually develops very late term, and the only real treatment involves caesarian section whether the foetus is of age to be viable or not. Many “pro-lifers” would require a woman in such a situation to deliver the baby and take her chances.

One might also speculate on just why so many “pro-lifers” are pro-capital punishment. I find it difficult to see the logic.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:52 am 184. geoffgo:

Itake@149:

To kill is wrong, and you should not kill. To protect yourself when cornered is different, and I would not just stand there while the bad guy kills me.

Your exception for self-defense contradicts your basic premise that “to kill is wrong.” It’s useful to examine a self-contradicting premise to discover its inherent logical inconsistancy.

Replace “killing” with “murder” and you remove the contradiction. Understanding the distinction is important to your survival.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:14 am 185. Sapwolf:

There is NOT EVEN ONE pro-lifer that is standing by this murderer of Tiller.

The Pro-Life movement is just that: PRO_LIFE.

As evil as Tiller’s murderous behavior, it is MURDER what happened to him.

The ends don’t justify the means and pro-lifers more than anybody know and believe this.

Now, when will the MSM start talking about the Muslim who murdered the Army Recruiter in Arkansas?

That was murder too.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:36 am 186. geoffgo:

RachelPeepers@149,

The newer versions of the Bible state “Thou shalt not kill.” The original Commandant was “Thou shalt not commit murder.” Wherever the Commandments originated, that distinction was considered important enough to use a word having a distinctly different meaning.

I agree with you that the intellectual conflation of “killing” and “murder” has confused/corrupted many religious organizations WRT the morality of capital punishment. Obviously, to their detriment.

Like it or not, pacifism can exist only at the indulgence of non-pacifists. The innocent party seeks justice. Only the guilty party needs mercy.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:41 am 187. Suzi:

Jack Cashill noted the ‘historical’ similarities between Tiller’s killer and John Brown last night on the Andrea Shea King radio show. My daughter Gingi was on first, then Jack. Worth a listen.
http://www.radiopatriot.blogspot.com

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:44 am 188. Brian Richard Allen:

There’s an adage that a terrorist is a Po-Mo-babblin’ moral relativist’s “freedom fighter.”

And another to the effect that any good a man might do will likely be interred with his bones — but that his evil will live on.

Perhaps we might see it then that in this instance the the murderer of the mass-murderer was simple exercising his right to chose the ownership, operation and control (or lack of it) over his own body and/or to provide the killer, Doctor Tiller, with a last-trimester abortion?

And agree that the evil inherent in the actions of both the bloody murderer and of the bloody mass-murderer will likely survive them both?

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – Califotillercated 90028
And the Far Abroad

(And, the score? 3rd Trimester-Tiller’s Team: 50 millions and counting; Really-Rotten-Roeder’s Ratbags: 5)

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:48 am 189. Paul -Indiana:

#165 Tiller saved the lives of countless young women, and is a hero.
=========================================
The saving of any number of young womens’ lives is debatable. His murder of an equal number of innocent babies is indisputable.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:56 am 190. Chiral:

> 179. RV

Those are all “facts”. They don’t care. All they can do is morbidly imagine, “That could have been me or my baby!”

> 183. Fletcher Christian

It goes farther than that. Every birth control is an abortion, because it’s a baby not born. Playing with yourself is time spent not doing God’s work – which is either serving the church in celibacy, or giving that church your kids by sexual role playing with your church-approved spouse.

It’s pure insanity. The clergy only thinks in directions, not positions. They say “slippery slope” with no discrimination between a hill’s summit and its base, nor anywhere in-between, and they ignore that there is nothing slippery in having perfectly good traction. The whole model is stupid anyway. That’s what they rely on – hilarious models and romantic generalizations. No real metrics or specific analysis of situations.

Jun 2, 2009 - 8:58 am 191. geoffgo:

Randy@164,

A logic primer:

To sacrifice is to give up a higher value for a lower value. If a higher value is achieved over a lower value, it’s called a gain.

Neither Tiller’s death nor his murderer’s eventual punishment have anything to do with “sacrifice” or “gain.”

And David@ S@165,
Pro-life is a joke.
Probably a good thing your Mom didn’t feel that way, eh?

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:01 am 192. Chiral:

@ geoffgo

“That could have been ME!” :O

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:06 am 193. geoffgo:

SteveI’msorrytosayColorado@169,

I fully support freedom of speech, but some of the threats being made by absolutists on this thread are real, real scary.

If the “absolutists” you reference are those who believe in absolutes, then those with the opposite point of view don’t believe there are any absolutes.

Check your basic premise. Obviously you didn’t pay attention in logic class. Declaring that there are no absolutes, requires the exception of that one. Duh!

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:20 am 194. Paul -Indiana:

#165 Tiller saved the lives of countless young women, and is a hero.
=================================
Nonsense. The only sure thing is that the same number of babies were murdered.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:20 am 195. trangbang68:

Steve, My humble apologies for giving your name to David. David deserves to bear the onus of his own macabre views.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:20 am 196. Sherab Zangpo:

I deeply regret the murder of any person.

And I ask myself why NOBODY ever discusses the murder of EACH SINGLE ABORTED BABY.

The nihilists and the subversives ALWAYS brainwash us, ALWAYS.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:25 am 197. RandyChandler:

geoffgo, sacrifice is giving up something of value for somebody or something else considered to be of more value or importance.

But whatever semantic games we play, the fact is that Tiller will be killing no more infants. I see that as a definite gain.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:34 am 198. College Know-It-All Hippy:

154, right answer, wrong question. Now go back and read your own claim.

Jun 2, 2009 - 9:53 am 199. Jaujau:

I note that Tiller was a baby killer, while many on the left refer to American soldiers as baby killers.
I hear no outrage expressed by the leftists in this country over the murders by Domestic Jihad terrorist Muhammed, but they would paint with a broad paintbrush all anti abortionists.

Jun 2, 2009 - 10:53 am 200. cheryl:

143 Fathom:As far as B.O. I hope no one kills him. He is not worth it. Think of it.. streets named after the moron.. raised far above his stature by the leftist media. Uhhgg.

They’re already naming elementary schools after The ONE.

Jun 2, 2009 - 11:16 am 201. K Rod:

I had thought about the John Brown/Civil War nexus and the possible similarity to this situation a few days ago. This goes beyond abortion. I think it’s evident that the political polarization in this country is beyond repair. Ever since the New Deal, American politics has been driven, if only subconciously, by the competition between statism and individualism and for most of that time there was a rough equilibrium. Now that the MSM has become an arm of statist propaganda and public education is now spreading the same, that equilibrium has broken down completely. I fear catastrophic events are coming our way. My only hope is for a peaceful splitting of this country (secession?) between the statists and the individualists. There is no way either side can agree to a compromise that would be acceptable to the other side. The left thinks it has carried the day and will not be denied its victory. It remains to be seen if the indivualists have the will to mount an effective resistance.

Jun 2, 2009 - 11:25 am 202. Michael Steele's Brother in Law's Bodyguard:

Leo Lenbeck what’s your point? Firstly, I have to argue that you didn’t provide any evidence for the numbers you use. Names of the researchers tell me nothing, and you didn’t excerpt any information. Secondly, this debate is about late term abortion and how rare it is; not about how many abortions there or how many there should be. Comparitively rare is what I said, and offered you the percentage of total abortions.

It seems you have a larger issue with abortion, which is fine. I don’t want to have that conversation because of the bullshit that usually ensues.

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:16 pm 203. LFMayor:

Have any of you read “Freakanomics”? One of the points made in the book is that the decline spike in violent crime which appeared in the early 90’s was a direct effect of Roe V Wade. Those poor inner city mischief makers simply ran out of a next generation to continue their enterprises. Not very P.C., but the facts as presented are damning. If the left wants to discard it’s unwanted slag (and surely a few diamonds in the process) why prevent them? Apples are never far from the tree.

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:47 pm 204. ash:

K Rod – I presume you are on the individualists team, right? Therefore you support the individuals right to chose whether to have an abortion or not or are you a Statist on that issue and believe that the government should make that decision for the individual?

Jun 2, 2009 - 12:51 pm 205. Truth:

I sat in Dr. Tiller’s office a couple of weeks before the first time he was shot. He’d asked me to stop by to discuss some business issues, and I obliged.

I remember him telling me about a procedure he was about to perform: A third-trimester abortion. The couple had come from the middle east, on their own dime, after exhausting the world’s medical knowledge of options.

The fetus had the most severe form of spina bifida (meningomyelocele), with the spine completely exposed out of the body. The best doctors all over the world deemed this case impossible to fix surgically, the baby was going to die no matter what, as it could not survive out of the womb. Plus, because of the extreme deformity, a normal vaginal delivery was impossible, and likely fatal to the mother, without medical intervention.

In addition, the fetus was hydrocephalic in the extreme. Because of the late diagnosis, there was no brain matter developed above the cerebral cortex, which means to you lay people, no higher brain functions. Essentially, brain dead. Due to other complications, the fetus skull was the size of a basketball, and no human in history could pass a head that size through the birth canal.

Moreover, genetic testing indicated both parents were carriers of markers for Niemann-Pick disease, SMPD1-associated, and GM2 gangliosidoses (aka Tay-Sachs Disease). Pre-natal testing confirmed the fetus had both conditions, which are universally fatal, with no quality of life. Life expectancy was measured in months.

The combination of all these conditions left only two choices: Let nature take it’s course and the mother dies, or terminate the pregnancy.

The logical procedure with the lowest risk to the mother was an intact dilation and extraction, otherwise known as a partial birth abortion.

A lot of Americans live in a fantasy world where morons like Tom Cruise can buy an ultra-sound machine for home use. That’s not the real world, folks. In many parts of the world, pre-natal testing, if available, is expensive and often done late term after complications have presented and are impossible to ignore.

Dr. Tiller handled the toughest cases from all over the world, doing a procedure that few other doctors knew how to do, even when medically necessary to save the life of the mother. He saved lives, and he will be missed. Mother’s will die because he’s not here anymore.

Personally, I think abortion is a terrible form of birth control, but I don’t see any of the anti-abortion crowd lining up to adopt unwanted babies. I also don’t think it’s anyone’s business telling doctor’s and patient’s how they should live their lives.

Oh, and for the record, Sherman was a true terrorist.

Jun 2, 2009 - 1:46 pm 206. Roderick Reilly:

205. Truth:

I believe many of us on this forum would not dispute that there are instances where late-term abortions are the only viable option. The case you stated above is a supreme example. But here’s the problem: for every such case as you offered above, there are as many as ten where a viable, healthy baby or a Down’s syndrome child is killed. There’s no pretending that this is a “fetus,” indistinguishable from that of a pig or goat, but a viable child. As to the Down’s syndrome babies, families who bring them to term do not seem to be in the throes of agony or tribulation over their decision to raise their “special” child.

Jun 2, 2009 - 2:25 pm 207. trangbang68:

I don’t see any of the anti-abortion crowd lining up to adopt babies. Yeah right! All kinds of pro-life (the proper term ) folks adopt children. I know a middle aged couple who at considerable cost went to China and adopted a girl who would have been excess baggage under China’s one child policy.

Jun 2, 2009 - 2:41 pm 208. cjm:

205: i guess giving that poor woman a cesarean wouldn’t have worked, eh?

Jun 2, 2009 - 2:53 pm 209. Truth:

Roderick Reilly: If you limit terminations to medically necessary, then who is the doctor? Who gets to make the decision? The guy who went to medical school and gave up his youth to learn medicine? Or the the guy who sold his soul to get elected? I’ll take the physician over the politician, any day.

trangbang68: Your comment is without merit. We’re not debating abortion in China (it’s mandatory there). Your straw man logical fallacy is a non sequitur and fails.

cjm: She would have likely died. Caesarean section is major surgery, and not without risk. Plus, women who have had a cesarean delivery have increased risks for malpresentation, placenta previa, antepartum hemorrhage, placenta accreta, prolonged labor, uterine rupture, preterm birth, low birth weight, and stillbirth in later deliveries. She wanted to have children, so this was the best choice for her health and her future.

Jun 2, 2009 - 3:17 pm 210. Fletcher Christian:

cjm – what difference would it have made? I’ll tell you what difference it would have made. It would have exposed the mother to the dangers of major surgery, to say nothing of making it less likely she could give birth naturally in the future – for the sake of giving something that wasn’t remotely human (remember – no higher brain functions?) a few minutes to a few hours to live in extreme agony, assuming it could realise and feel such. Presumably, the other benefit would be the possibility of performing some sort of magical ritual on the newborn, possibly including the splashing of water over the mindless lump. (We don’t know what religion these two followed.)

Religious fanatics make me want to throw up. What a Christian should ask is “What would Jesus do?” Unfortunately, far too many “Christians” have faith in the rituals and none in God. Terry Pratchett nailed this one; read “Small Gods” – which in my view ought to be required reading in seminaries.

Jun 2, 2009 - 3:25 pm 211. fred:

Truth @205

I accept the veracity of the information you related on your post. I’m one of those American Catholics who would agree that we should save the mother under those kinds of conditions. No question about it. I am not pro-abortion, by the way. I deplore its use as a means of birth control, which generally is the case in most abortions. Flushing out a mistake. Nevertheless, I would keep it legal for the reason that I know that occasionally it saves lives.

The most challenging thing for any human being to do is to truly discern God’s will. You have to draw upon many resources, science, logic, theology, biblical studies, and philosophy – and put all of these things, and more, into human faculties which then ponder what all these sources of truth are telling us. Many people are not up to the task. They want to take the easy, lazy way out.

Now I’m not saying that all of Dr. Tiller’s patients could be characterized as facing dire circumstances. I am sure there had to be some who got another doctor to sign off on the 2nd opinion that was perhaps a bit contrived.

I think the society we live in now is caught in a vicious cycle of recriminations and vitriol between two sides dominated by, on the one hand, rigid moral reasoning lacking in wisdom, and on the other hand, libertine nihilists who assign no value whatsoever to life inchoate, in process, and in formation.

Here we are in the 21st century and we still have kids and young adults (and sometimes older adults)who do not take preventative measures if they are going to have sex and don’t want it to end up with a pregnancy. For the record, I tend to frown on casual sex for recreational purposes outside of marriage. I have no problem with couples who are committed and going to get married (or intend to)consummating the powerful affection they have for each other.

So, I want to keep abortion legal, safe, and rare (to truly save the mother’s life). Life is sacred. And occasionally you have to end a life in order to save one.

It’s sad to see that the culture is caught up in the most undesirable polarities vis-a-vis this issue.

Jun 2, 2009 - 5:47 pm 212. Ms. Attitude:

Truth and Fletcher Christian,

You are sooo wrong. There are many stories of parents giving birth to a baby that wasn’t viable and experienced the best moments of their lives holding the baby and loving it while it died. Aborted babies get murdered!

Why are you so afraid of a ceserean? The “procedure” the mother had was more harmful than giving birth by cesean. And as for not having children, I know of a woman personally, who had an abortion while she was in high school. When she decided to have children, she miscarried 2 and had to have her cervix stitched shut and bed rest with next 2 pregnancies.

If you think the right to life is about religion you are wrong. Sorry religion makes you want to throw up.

Jun 2, 2009 - 6:14 pm 213. Bilgeman:

#210 Fletcher Christian:
“Religious fanatics make me want to throw up. What a Christian should ask is “What would Jesus do?” Unfortunately, far too many “Christians” have faith in the rituals and none in God.”

Pardon me, Mister Christian, but ‘oo the phock are YOU to dictate what Christians SHOULD do?

What do YOU know about it anyway?

OIC…you’re just another schmuck who swallows whatever mass-media mischaracterization “pre-packaged thought” it is that someone cares to put into your mouth, is that it?

Listen, ace, Jesus Christ does NOT want me to be like him.
I couldn’t, and we both,(He and I), know it.

If I’m nailed up onto a cross, it’s because I probably deserved it.

Say…that wee island yonder looks like it’ll do. Over the side and into the boat with you, Mister Christian, me old shipmate;this is where YOU get off!

Here’s a volleyball so that you’ll have someone to talk to…

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:02 pm 214. myth buster:

Even if Freakonomics is right, the crime reduction came at far too great a price. Between 1/4 and 1/3 of pregnancies have ended in abortion in the past 36 years. You can’t be taken seriously if you try to argue that the reduction in crime that resulted from this was worth it. Nationwide, we have on the order of 10,000 murders a year, verses on the order of 1,000,000 abortions each year.

BTW, the answer to what Jesus would do in the case of a malformed fetus if its mother stood in front of Him is: He would heal the child. Likewise, He would heal the woman of anything that ailed her.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:23 pm 215. Self-hating Boomer:

Religious fanatics make me want to throw up

Tell me about it. Especially when they make money off of their religion, people like James Hansen and Al Gore make me want to upchuck Katushas.

I feel your pain, right in my stomach.

Jun 2, 2009 - 7:56 pm 216. trangbang68:

Truth, My non sequiter not withstanding; why don’t you show me statistics of all the pro lifers who don’t adopt children. While obviously you can’t prove a negative; your statement is a tired old saw; that Christians and other pro-lifers don’t care about life past the womb. It’s a lie. Christians do more for the poor and downtrodden, adopt, work in underprivileged neighborhoods,etc than those on the left who follow the teachings of Margaret Sanger and the eugenics movement. That’s why Planned Parenthood enriches themselves at the public coffers by running abortion clinics in African American neighborhoods. Eliminate the undesirables. I’m not real impressed that you had a tete a tete with the late Mr. Tiller and you wouldn’t know truth if it hit you over the head with a 2×4.
Hey Fletcher Antichristian, What Would Jesus do? I doubt the one who said “you must have childlike faith to enter the Kingdom would hold hands and sing Kumbaya with the Butcher of Kansas.

Jun 2, 2009 - 10:36 pm 217. Oakley:

To me Mr. Tiller was every bit the terrorist as the shooter, and every bit as cowardly.

Proverbs 6:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)–

16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, AND HANDS THAT SHED INNOCENT BLOOD
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.

The abortion industry complex exists for the purpose of making money, LOTS OF MONEY.

Never forget, follow the MONEY.

Jun 2, 2009 - 11:22 pm 218. Leo Linbeck III:

MSBiLB,

Leo Lenbeck [sic] what’s your point?

My point is that you berated other posters for being uninformed, but don’t seem to have reliable facts on the late-term abortion issue.

In an earlier post, you claimed that the number of LTAs was less than one percent; you then quote a study saying it’s 1.4%, or more than 40% higher. You then use CDC numbers to estimate the number of abortions, when the Alan Guttmacher Institute (the most widely respected pro-choice research group) is a much more reliable source.

I strongly believe that debates like this should be based on facts and statistics, not conjectures and anecdotes. I was simply trying to quantify the total number of LTAs so as to advance the discussion and frame the issue.

Firstly, I have to argue that you didn’t provide any evidence for the numbers you use. Names of the researchers tell me nothing, and you didn’t excerpt any information.

I’d suggest you go to the Alan Guttmacher Institute website,

http://www.guttmacher.org/index.html

and click on “Abortion” under the Resources panel on the left. Lots of interesting data on this issue. And, FWIW, AGI is funded by the pro-choice side of the issue; it’s not part of the vast right-wing conspiracy.

Secondly, this debate is about late term abortion and how rare it is; not about how many abortions there or how many there should be. Comparitively [sic] rare is what I said, and offered you the percentage of total abortions.

I agree the debate is about LTAs and their rarity (or lack thereof). I was simply using the total number of abortions as a base from which to calculate the number of LTAs. But if you say “late-term abortions are rare,” I would have to disagree, as 11,000-18,000 annually in the US is not rare.

Your statement that they are comparatively rare is true, but I don’t understand why this is relevant to the debate. Deaths from HIV/AIDS in 2007, according to the CDC, were 14,561 – in the range of the number of LTAs. This equates to about 0.6% of all deaths, or comparatively about twice as rare as LTAs. But would you describe HIV/AIDS as rare? Perhaps you would, but that doesn’t lessen its importance to those who feel passionately about the issue. To AIDS activists, this is too many deaths. Pro-life activists feel the same way about LTAs.

It seems you have a larger issue with abortion, which is fine. I don’t want to have that conversation because of the b—s— that usually ensues.

Fair enough. I do have an issue with 1 million+ abortions being performed each year in the US, but I don’t want to force you into a conversation you don’t wish to have.

However, I appreciate your willingness to engage in the LTA discussion, and wish you all the best.

Cheers,
L3

Jun 2, 2009 - 11:54 pm 219. vivo:

163. maineman:

“And Vivo, do you really think that it is better for a child to be killed than to be born to an inadequate or ungrateful parent? That sounds like twisted logic of the first order”

The problem with the word “abortion’ is that it can encompass several stages of fetus development. Late abortions are definitely very controversial and undesirable. The idea of avoiding unwanted babies is PREVENTION by either abstinence or anticonceptive methods. The ignorant men and women that don’t prevent have a good chance of not wanting the baby. Just look at the statistics and social studies around the world.

Again, prevention is first. An unwanted pregnancy should be terminated at the earliest possible stage. Ignorance leads to late abortions, a tragic reality.

169. SteveB/Colorado:

“How do you deal with religions who strongly oppose contraception of any kind except “abstinence.” Do those persons just give up sex?”

Religions can oppose contraception all they want. People are going to break rules no matter what. If the couple is “smart”, they’ll procure contraceptives and have all the sex they want. If they don’t, they will procure “illegal” abortions. If they are just not playing, they can carry to term and get married. The choices in real life are numerous, especially when people are educated in sexual practices.

205. Truth: thanks for telling your compelling story.

Jun 3, 2009 - 4:03 am 220. David S:

@170. mac:

Adoption is not the issue. Terrorism is. Dr. Tiller was a victim of terrorism before, and he decided to follow his conscience and return to his practice, because he understood the importance of his practice to the women he served. Despite death threats. Despite physical assault. Despite legal harassment. Yes, I think Dr. Tiller was brave, and heroic.

If you spent any time trying to understand his work, you would recognize Dr. Tiller’s humanity, sensitivity and the deep commitment to care that he brought to his practice. He was a model physician, who always put the needs of his patients ahead of his own. The only murder here was of Dr. Tiller. Abortion is a critical service that can often mean the difference between life and death for a mother in difficult circumstances. Your lack of concern for your fellow citizens has been duly noted.

If this is about power, it is about the power to control women’s bodies. This is not the proper role of government.

Peace.

DS

Jun 3, 2009 - 6:59 am 221. Steynian 360 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] THE MURDER of Dr. George Tiller, like John Brown’s raid on Harpers Ferry, has significance far beyond [...]

Jun 3, 2009 - 7:50 am 222. Ms. Attitude:

Hey, David S

Watch this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMC_70oYV8U

Yeah, he was concerned about women…

It’s no longer a womans right when another human’s rights will be violated! duh

Jun 3, 2009 - 8:25 am 223. Fletcher Christian:

#213 Bilgeman (appropriate name BTW):

Actually, I don’t give a flying **** what fundamentalist “Christians” do. Including nailing each other to crosses – not unknown by the way. What I do object to is them trying to make those not sharing their peculiar complex of psychological symptoms do what the “Christians” want them to.

He doesn’t want you to be like him. He wants you to try, and you’re not trying. See you in the boiling blood. (Actually, probably not – I probably belong in the Vestibule.)

Mythbuster – Assuming that Jesus was in fact divine, he probably would. Humans can’t do that, however. Not yet.

Jun 3, 2009 - 8:32 am 224. Pat J:

@124. bobbcat:

111. Pat J: “Let’s mot forget Fox New’s culbablity in this murder.”

Can we forget the amazing level of stupidity displayed by your post? Perhaps it’s too much to ask you to provide evidence…………..
———————–
Bill O’Reilly referred to the man as “Tiller, the baby Killer” numerous times. He even sent out his camera stalker Jesse Watters at one point to harrass Tiller. I would argue Fox New’s biased reporting contributed to this murder by serving as a source of inspiration.

You want evidence, check out You Tube among others.

Jun 3, 2009 - 8:44 am 225. Ms. Attitude:

224. Pat J:

OH NO!!! Pat J, help me!!! The liberal magazine, Playboy, wants us to “hate f**k” conservative women. I must listen and obey….wait, I am a woman!

See, how stupid blaming the media actually is? Making the claim makes you look like that too.

Jun 3, 2009 - 9:16 am 226. Self-hating Boomer:

Dr. Tiller was a victim of terrorism

Words have meanings. Terrorism is the sneak attack of as many uninvolved civilians as possible. Blowing up the whole church would have been terrorism. Shooting one specific and pre-chosen person is an assassination. The only thing terrorism and assassination have in common is that they’re both Arabic inventions.

Please stop abusing the English language.

Jun 3, 2009 - 9:53 am 227. G Alston:

#226 — Shooting one specific and pre-chosen person is an assassination. The only thing terrorism and assassination have in common is that they’re both Arabic inventions.

Please stop abusing the English language.

Shooting and killing a doctor hoping to dissaude and/or scare others engaged in the same practice (i.e. sending a message) is terrorism by definition.

Jun 3, 2009 - 3:09 pm 228. Bilgeman:

#223 Fletcher Christian:
“Actually, I don’t give a flying **** what fundamentalist “Christians” do.”

Really? Then why did you post this?:
” What a Christian should ask is “What would Jesus do?”…”

Either you do or you don’t, which is it? If you wish to usurp the Captain’s berth, you’d best show a little consistency, or the crew will put you into a boat, too.

Now you DO display SOME consistency…let’s go back and review what you posted at #157:

“What disturbs me about the “pro-lifers” is their absolutism. Apparently, the sperm and the egg have no rights but, 30 seconds later, the fertilised egg is fully human with all the rights appertaining thereto. Does anyone else see a problem with this?”.

For the record, I do, but that isn’t important right now. What IS germane is that you apparently see no problem in the corollary to what you accuse the pro-lifers of…namely that an unborn child is nothing more than a fertilized egg right up until the moment of birth,(and perhaps for a few hours afterwards, eh?).

THAT flavor of absolutism apparently elicits no concern on your part whatsoever.

So there’s YOUR consistency…like Nelson at Copenhagen, you raise the spyglass to your blind eye when it suits your purposes.
And that’s why you get to drink from the fire-hose and do as Jesus would have done…walk on the water to your new solitary island home.
This is a Christian ship, Mr. Christian. If you don’t cotton to the ways of the crew, you’d do best to find yourself another means of transportation.

Just out of curiosity, I note that you use Anglicized spelling in more than a few of your words…are you an American? Or one of our distaff cousins with nothing better to bitch about in your own land?

Jun 3, 2009 - 3:54 pm 229. Someone75:

108. BettyBlue:

“Someone75, I’m not gonna spare you anything! Last time I checked, this country still has freedom of speech! Deal with it.

Spare us the moonbatty whining, and playing the victim card.”

Um . . . didn’t you just prove my point? I was pointing out how you complain like a 5-year old when “talking points” are used against you, and yet you use them every day.

Grow up, will you?

Jun 3, 2009 - 4:21 pm 230. David S:

@222. Ms. Attitude:

It’s no longer a womans right when another human’s rights will be violated! duh

Thankfully, a woman’s right to control her body is not subject to conditions. Even if you could outlaw abortion completely worldwide, her inalienable human right to control her own body would remain.

Women have been treated as chattel for most of history – the last vestiges of this practice are being defended with deadly force by religious extremists, both here and abroad.

History will teach us nothing.

Peace.

DS

Jun 3, 2009 - 9:00 pm 231. JackH:

Did the man who killed Tiller kill as many people as Bill Ayers wife, Bernadine Dohrn?

Jun 3, 2009 - 9:32 pm 232. Fletcher Christian:

#228 Bilgeman:

For the record – I have a very big problem with late-term abortions for no good reason, and personally I would define that as after 20 weeks or so – the limit of viability. Fundies and Catholics appear to think there is no such thing as a good reason, as the Irish case and the one mentioned earlier on this thread demonstrate.

Inconsistent? Not really. I used “Christians” in quotes very deliberately. I contend that there are very many people who call themselves Christian who are no more Christian than I am, and probably less so. Such as the abortion-clinic bombers. Such as most of the Catholic priesthood. Such as “Mother Teresa”. Such as ALL proponents of the teaching of Bible literalism and young-Earth creationism in schools, thus intellectually crippling for life those unfortunate enough to be “educated” in those schools. Such schools, in my opinion, are little better than the madrassas we all deplore.

And also including just about all televangelists; it is very surprising to me that they get away with driving to a TV studio in a $100,000 car wearing a $5,000 suit, tell their audience to give till it hurts – and then their flock does it!

And I do think that real Christians should ask themselves what Jesus would do.

To answer your last question; I use anglicised spellings because I am English. And I am here because what America does matters to us – for example, your particular brand of fundie “education” lunacy is spreading over here too. And of course the dishonesty and greed of American bankers has made a mess of our economy as well as yours. But that perhaps belongs to another thread.

Jun 4, 2009 - 12:28 am 233. Bilgeman:

Fletcher Christian:
“To answer your last question; I use anglicised spellings because I am English. ”

Ah. And so the abortion debate in America means nothing much at all, in real terms, to you OR your mate the volleyball, does it?

“And I am here because what America does matters to us – for example, your particular brand of fundie “education” lunacy is spreading over here too.”

I can see why. I’ve long had a mild case of Anglophilia, and from what your transnational progressive statists have done to Britain, it’s not surprising that stout-hearted and rock-ribbed Limeys would reject all that collectivist neo-Marxist EU/Labour Party bullsh!t.

So, you’re losing the Battle for Britain, and you thought you’d dip your oar over into our pond, eh?

Not the best-advised move you could make, chum. The soil all over our East coast is fertilized with the corpses of meddling English upper-class twits and their hirelings. y’know.

Stay on the island that God put you on then, lest we decide to find some smaller and less hospitable outcrop to maroon you upon.

Your input about our domestic politics is neither wanted nor welcome.

AFAIC, you can wait in line for your National Health scheme to abort the lot of you into extinction…that’s entirely your own affair.

Jun 4, 2009 - 7:03 am 234. markb:

Bilgeman @ 233:

Stay on the island that God put you on then, lest we decide to find some smaller and less hospitable outcrop to maroon you upon.
============================

Like Australia or The Philippines?

Jun 4, 2009 - 7:42 am 235. Pat J:

“The liberal magazine, Playboy, wants us to “hate f**k” conservative women.”
—————————-
Yet that’s not the same as repeatly calling someone a baby killer. Hell there are plenty of conservative women I hate that I’d like to f###. I’ll take sex over murder any day.

Jun 4, 2009 - 8:46 am 236. trangbang68:

Fletcher Christian states that the teaching of creationism intellectually cripples children for life. I would say, teaching children a Christian worldview gives them confidence in facing an uncertain fearful world. Obviously, if you knew anything about the true nature of Christianity as you profess to, you would know that ultimately those children will have to exercise their God given free will and choose whether to believe or not to believe.
If anything is intellectually crippling to children it is the mindless politically correct statist thinking that passes for public education in America and no doubt Europe. It has rotted our foundations as a free people and deadened the vision of a couple generations. That’s how the Hollow Man in Chief got elected.
I laugh at Euroweenies like you critiquing the USA while you grovel at the feet of your soon to be Muslim masters. If anything has jump started the Muslim power grab in the UK ,it is the rise of unbelief in a formerly Christian nation. John Wesley would be astonished at the dhimmis who people his once proud nation.

Jun 4, 2009 - 10:27 am 237. Bilgeman:

#234 markb:
“Like Australia or The Philippines?”

Heck no…I don’t like Mr, Christian that much.

I was thinking more along the lines of St, Helena or South Georgia.

Jun 4, 2009 - 10:46 am 238. Ms. Attitude:

235. Pat J: Yet that’s not the same as repeatly calling someone a baby killer. Hell there are plenty of conservative women I hate that I’d like to f###. I’ll take sex over murder any day.

Evidently you haven’t experienced the joy of rape. Calling a baby killer a baby killer is just calling it like it is. So if these women are raped we can blame it on Playboy? I don’t think so, it’s the rapist who makes the decision, just like the man who killed Tiller made the decision.

I don’t justify violence of any kind. Murder, rape or anything else. I don’t like war and I think our government should have done a lot more research and thinking before getting us into the war we are currently in. We seem to forget that our country is in some type of contingency almost all the time. Being the “peace keepers” requires us to shoot guns and drop bombs that sometimes kill innocent people.

As you said on another thread, you would prefer babies not be aborted and be able to live in a world of peace. Yet here you more or less want to rape women for their political views.

Jun 4, 2009 - 11:53 am 239. Ms. Attitude:

Maybe the main issue with abortion is not abortion. Maybe it’s the way sex is viewed. If sex is used as an expression of love and the joining together of two people instead of as a recreation sport for burning off steam and hormones then a pregnancy would be more welcome.

Jun 4, 2009 - 12:01 pm 240. Pat J:

Ms.

I said I’d like to f*** them. Not rape them. Big difference.

Jun 4, 2009 - 1:20 pm 241. Ms. Attitude:

Pat J.

If you hate them then it’s rape.

Jun 4, 2009 - 1:42 pm 242. Fletcher Christian:

“Fletcher Christian states that the teaching of creationism intellectually cripples children for life.”

Correct. I do so state. And I will explain why. It is because young-Earth creationism necessarily involves the rejection of just about all of modern science. To believe in that particular view of Earth’s history involves the rejection of nuclear physics, thermodynamics, geology, astrophysics and molecular biology to start with, to say nothing of the wilful rejection of strong evidence for speciation within recent history – the London Underground mosquito, for example.

Either that, or one has to assume that the entire Universe was created on 23rd October 4004 B.C. at nine o’clock in the morning, complete with all the falsified evidence; isotopic ratios in rocks, the cosmic microwave background and large numbers of fake fossils deposited at various depths all over the world are just the start of it.

That sort of Big Lie strikes me as more like the handiwork of the other side.

Jun 4, 2009 - 4:07 pm 243. trangbang68:

And the theory of evolution is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics how?
At any rate, you’ll still be forcibly bowing to the moon god anyways. The God of the Bible is a God of love and redemption. He, you mock and ridicule, while the vile, murderous cult of Mohammed stands ready to slit your throat at first offense.

Jun 4, 2009 - 7:25 pm

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