59 Comments

1. John Lynch:

Not to mention Ehud Olmert, who as Israeli Prime Minister once had an approval ration of 2%.

Reagan had an approval rating in the 30s until the 1981-2 recession ended, after which he became popular again. The same could happen with Obama.

Jun 6, 2009 - 6:28 am 2. LFMayor:

Congress has an awfully low approval rating, yet what’s happened to them? A few tea parties, some rumblings in the hinterlands but yet they’re still drawing their paychecks. So long as the television works and there is bread to buy on the shelves not much is going to change, Gulliver still slumbers while the lines are cast across him and staked into place.

Jun 6, 2009 - 7:08 am 3. Houdini:

All the money outlayed and nothing is happening except unemployment is still on the rise. I do not know who is getting polled in all these polls but I certainly is not me, and I strongly disapprove of what is happening to this country, and do not see it getting better anytime soon. I don’t think all the pork that was in this bill is going to help anyone except the politicians. Just waiting for the taxes to begin their rise along with inflation and super high gasoline. We need to start drilling for the oil in this country right now to relieve the upward spiral that is controlled by enemies of this country and not ourselves.

Jun 6, 2009 - 7:13 am 4. PA Cat:

Gordon Brown at least has a nifty set of DVDs he can watch when he finally leaves Downing Street.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:14 am 5. TonyB:

Guys, the political atmosphere here in the UK is as febrile as in living memory. You really should follow it – high drama.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:35 am 6. Nine-of-Diamonds:

@ #4:

No he can’t. If I remember correctly, the DVD’s don’t even work in Europe.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:36 am 7. PA Cat:

#6

Who says he’s going to stay in Europe? If the O can put a tax cheat in charge of Treasury, he can place an undocumented immigrant from the UK as electronics czar.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:45 am 8. Charles:

Obama’s peter pan speech in Cairo gets pretty well taken apart by the ottawa citizen. Even Jon Stewartis starting to get a clue

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:24 am 9. Derek:

Ugh. In Canada we endured a years long civil war within the governing party. The Liberals fought publicly for a long time over leadership until finally they were defeated at the polls.

To be fair, there is much at stake. All those staffing positions, commissions, the bureaucracy. Imagine how disruptive it would be for the government to change.

Derek

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:33 am 10. davidt:

The main source of information for most people, the Democrat News Media, is so deeply infatuated with Obama that they are willing to commit suicide to prove their undying love and loyalty. Add to that the all-purpose excuse of, “Bush!” and Obama is in no danger.

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:39 am 11. NahnCee:

I don’t understand British politics. I could never wrap my mind around what Tony Blair had done that made him so hated, and think the Brits deserve ever second of pain and humiliation inflicted upon them by Brown.

My question for the knowledgeable is: if offered the job, would Tony return to PM? Or is that illegal or something.

(BTW, I also think that America deserves every second of pain and humiliation inflicted upon us by the election of Obama. I just hope that the next American city hit by terrorists is DC, and that Obama will not be able to overthrow Constitutional protections so that we can fix all his evil after he has eventually left the national stage. I think stripping him of whatever tatters of American citizenship he claims and deporting him back to Kenya sounds about right for the remainder of his lying, cheating life.)

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:52 am 12. Elroy Jetson:

davidt:
Like the false “sacrifices” Mao made during the Long March, Obama’s journey is one in which he is being carried by his loyal supporters (DNM).
Williams, Matthews, Olbermann and company can’t go back. GE holds the whip.

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:55 am 13. cjm:

the thing with obama, imo, is that once his popularity slips, he won’t be able to get it back. he will panic and become even more ineffectual. he strikes me as a fragile personality that will easily shatter when faced with mounting adversity. of course this will be blood in the water for our foreign adversaries, who will pile on the problems.

Jun 6, 2009 - 10:28 am 14. Ashen:

Hey yall, this is totally off topic, but I didn’t see a post about it from Wretchard. Today is D-Day. I just want to shout out to any of those veterans who may read this. I am Gen X. I was raised to be thankful for you, and I am. You and others like you, who defend my beloved country America, have always been my heroes. While working my way up through my career path, I have had many opportunities to meet WWII vets from both Allied and Axis powers. I have listened to a direct account, in person, of the fighting at Omaha Beach that day. The individual survived not only the landing but made it all the way to Czechoslovakia when the war ended. Words fail me so all I can say is God Bless and thanks.

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:06 am 15. Scythianeedle:

One of two things will happen:

a) If O’s popularity continues to tumble (highly likely considering the vast gap between expectations and his actual ability to deliver on his promises by any legal means) the polls will cease, and no drop in popularity will be acknowledged;

OR

b) His administration will simply make up figures that proclaim him successful and undeniably the most popular leader since The Great Prophet.

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:09 am 16. Scythianeedle:

Thanks, Ashen!

My dad fought in the Pacific Theater where there was no GRAND D-Day, but a lot of smaller ones. But even though it was fought on a smaller scale, it was intense, hellish.

Japanese bullets and shells killed you just as dead as the ones made by Krupps.

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:14 am 17. Ashen:

http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/memory_omaha.htm

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:18 am 18. Ashen:

http://townhall.com/columnists/WarrenKozak/2009/06/06/clear_skies_over_normandy

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:30 am 19. Ashen:

http://www.highrock.com/JohnGBurkhalter/D-day.html

Jun 6, 2009 - 11:34 am 20. bob:

Obumble’s polss really go down when folks begin to make the connection between Obumble and their personal problems. Still blaming things on Bush. But, it will happen, sooner or later.

Jun 6, 2009 - 12:10 pm 21. John Lynch:

A question for any British readers– what is the point of the Liberal Democratic party? It seems to me that they are just another Social Democratic party. Why does the UK need two of those? Obviously people vote for them but I don’t understand why.

Jun 6, 2009 - 12:26 pm 22. novanglus:

ScythianNeedle: My dad fought in the Pacific Theater where there was no GRAND D-Day, but a lot of smaller ones. But even though it was fought on a smaller scale, it was intense, hellish.

After reading With the Old Breed, an account of war in the Pacific by Marine EB Sledge, I was left speechless by what these men experienced. Tragic and heroic and incredible to us of later generations. If your Dad’s still with us, please tell him that we, shadows on the internet, thank him.

Anyone who has not read this book – I can’t recommend it highly enough.

Jun 6, 2009 - 1:16 pm 23. NahnCee:

Shopping in the supermarket this morning, a manager came on the public address system and made a very nice announcement about it being D-Day and the significance of that. He started by addressing his comments to “customers and employees alike”. Looking around the other shoppers (and employees), I wondered how many of them were Americans, or had family members who were Americans, in 1945. And in fact, how many of the Asian-looking ones had had family members nuked shortly thereafter, and how many of the Hispanic ones were from countries which had never, ever, won a war at all. Nevertheless, it was a nice little speech, and I appreciated it in our increasingly politically correct world.

Jun 6, 2009 - 1:43 pm 24. sisyphus:

#11 NahnCee….racist! How unpatriotic of you to wish ill on DC and Ear Leader. How many on the left (and leftwads here) agree with that Newsweek cretin and Chrissie “I squat to pee” Matthews that obamalamadingdong is God-like? Yeah, I know I’m showing disrespect. Are people really so clueless they don’t see what is going on with this Chicago thug administration? If there ever is a revolution here, I’d hope the so-called journalists who idolize Obama are strung up from the lamp posts upside down.

What has happened to this country since D-Day? Can you imagine that a Pelosi, Reid or Obama would not have been against WWII? Omigawd, we killed innocents in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Can’t we all just get along? Amerikkka forced Hitler’s blitzkrieg throughout Europe, much like forcing Japan to rape Nanking by cutting off oil supplies. Oh and how much of the whole sorry mess was the responsibility of the Joooooooooos? If Iran would only destroy the Jewish state, all Muslims everywhere would finally find peace, prosperity and contentment within their grasp.

Jun 6, 2009 - 1:45 pm 25. PA Cat:

Ashen–

Thank you for the shout-out. My dad went into Normandy with the 82nd Airborne on D-Day. He made it home to Pennsylvania– or I wouldn’t be sitting here typing this– but he died in 1964 from a heart attack that the coroner thought was a delayed effect of combat stress. Like you, I am forever grateful to him and his comrades. God bless you too.

Jun 6, 2009 - 1:54 pm 26. mac:

I think that in America and Britain there are many veterans of WWII who are appalled by what the nations they fought to save have become. My father, who was in the Pacific, could not be more disgusted with the state of political affairs in America. My good friend, who is British, told me that his uncle told him that if he had known what Britain would become through winning the war, he would never have put on the Queen’s uniform.

“Gods of the Copybook Headings,” indeed.

Jun 6, 2009 - 2:52 pm 27. whiskey:

Female unemployment is low. Obama’s pumping up female-dominated employment in Government.

As long as he takes care of women (men don’t like him) he’ll be alright. Just like Gordon Brown — Brown appeals to women, due to policies, whereas Blair despite his slickster image, had too many male-skewing beliefs and policies, particularly wrt Iraq, the US, and religion.

The drivers of the West, women, have yet to be signficantly impacted by the recession. If that changes, Obama has real problems.

Jun 6, 2009 - 2:57 pm 28. I'm Just Plain Dumb:

Wretchard,

The whole Brown cabinet thing reminds me of an interesting made-for-tv British trilogy called “House of Cards”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Cards

It gives an interesting perspective on Parliment and the Minister’s Cabinet. Think there is a novel too. though dated, I would recommend it.

Jun 6, 2009 - 6:16 pm 29. E. Nigma:

“A”-Day on October 20, 1944 was almost as big an affair as D-Day.

A-Day was the day the US Army and Marines (and Australians) came ashore on the beaches of Leyte. “I Shall Return” MacArthur, returned. In many ways, it was a much more impressive logistics triumph, as they didn’t have the British Isles just across the channel to stage the army and act as an airbase. And the invasion of Leyte also spurred the opening to the largest naval battles in modern history, ending with the defeat and almost annihilation of the once feared Imperial Japanese Navy.

But the whole world wasn’t watching quite as closely as they were on the Normandy beaches.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:10 pm 30. Eggplant:

cjm said:

“the thing with obama, imo, is that once his popularity slips, he won’t be able to get it back. he will panic and become even more ineffectual.”

I believe the stock market rally since March has been a classic sucker’s rally and the market will plunge sometime between next week and 3 months from now. After the market tanks, Obama will be blamed. All the false optimism created by the “green shots” propaganda campaign will turn into cold fury. That fury will be directed at the Chosen One. The MSM will see that fury and realize it could (and should be) directed towards them (they created Obama). To protect their ratings and market share, the MSM will abandon Obama and turn on him like the foul hyenas that they are. The Messiah may end his presidency as the most hated President in American history.

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:27 pm 31. wretchard:

MacArthur’s speech at the Leyte landing was dramatic as they come. It’s largely forgotten now, but you have to imagine what it sounded like to all those who had fought in the guerillas and in the underground and who were now preparing to fight hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops, the largest in the Pacific, on Leyte and Luzon.

People of the Philippines. I have returned. … At my side is your President, Sergio Osmena, worthy successor of that great patriot, Manuel Quezon, with members of his cabinet. The seat of your government is now therefore firmly re- established on Philippine soil. …

Rally to me. Let the indomitable spirit of Bataan and Corregidor lead on. As the lines of battle roll forward to bring you within the zone of operations, rise and strike. Strike at every favorable opportunity. For your homes and hearths, strike! For future generations of your sons and daughters, strike! In the name of your sacred dead, strike! Let no heart be faint. Let every arm be steeled. The guidance of divine God points the way. Follow in His Name to the Holy Grail of righteous victory!

Jun 6, 2009 - 8:53 pm 32. Robohobo:

wretchard @ 31: Can you see Powell making a speech like that one? I for one cannot.

Jun 6, 2009 - 9:46 pm 33. NahnCee:

Petraeus could have made such a speech in 2008. They wouldn’t let him now.

Jun 6, 2009 - 10:36 pm 34. NahnCee:

“The MSM will see that fury and realize it could (and should be) directed towards them (they created Obama). To protect their ratings and market share, the MSM will abandon Obama and turn on him like the foul hyenas that they are. ”

* * *

We have already seen several newspapers go into bankruptcy with several other biggies teetering on the brink of it. People simply refuse to buy and read them any more, and I don’t think that’s solely due to technology and the internet.

But for at least the last five years, as newspaper subscription numbers have been plunging, have professional “journalists” looked at themselves to see if possibly what they are doing and producing might be the problem? No, they have not. The Los Angeles Times, for example, is *still* writing Left-tilting socialist lies, pro-Mexican immigration stories, and pro-Union anti-Arnold diatribes about California’s budget situation.

If print journalists, who have watched their dead tree industry slowly swirl down the toilet for a decade now, can’t figure out that the problem just might possibly be themselves, then why on earth do you think the rest of the media will ever be able to figure out that they might be blamed for the election of Obama and the ensuing disaster that has been not only for America but for the whole world?

Besides, by that time, it will be well-known that if you are a “journalist” and continue to support Obama in his maniac plots, then when you are inevitably laid off or fired from your MSM job, a place *will* be found for you in Obama’s government.

Jun 6, 2009 - 10:48 pm 35. dtmack:

#30 Eggplant – yep.

The media can cover for O to some extent, but if the situation gets half as bad as it could, that’ll be too big a story, affecting too many people, to be hushed up. They can only yell Bush for so long. Even many who are receptive to the “Bush” mantra will say, “OK, he caused it, but the time for that is over. Fix it.”

#34 Nahncee – Even the media are not that dense. If they see O starting to get the blame, they know that many in this country will blame them directly. After all, could you imagine O getting elected if they weren’t cheerleading, and actually scrutinized him to some reasonable degree?

If they perceive permanent weakness, they’ll either start to do more balanced stories, in the hopes that everyones memory is short, or they’ll turn on him, but probably from a leftist perspective.

Jun 7, 2009 - 4:06 am 36. downtowndubai:

question: is chaney the “”american pinochet”" ???

to think of macarthur and the pacific is to think of my father. the man loved his adopted country every day of his life as a pilot in the pacific, then as a citizen. to think of my father viewing america today is beyond belief. he ould not comprehend the ”weakness of america as foreign policy”, the dumbing of america as a means to foist commi policies.

the media will fawn over Obama till he and his wife are frogg marched to the gallows for tyrany.

zero makes their day, makes the euro-weemies preen and the islamic nazis smile.

the guy is a can of shit…

Jun 7, 2009 - 5:35 am 37. buddy larsen:

Novanglus/22 & Scythianeedle/16; i’m sure you have seen this.

(Sledge’s book, along with another nonpariel, is mentioned in the fourth paragraph)

Jun 7, 2009 - 9:42 am 38. NahnCee:

What would “turning on him from a leftist perspective” entail, exactly? That Bush entered his dreams as a succubus and made him do it?

Jun 7, 2009 - 10:14 am 39. dtmack:

I haven’t heard that argument yet, but who knows with them.

By leftist perspective I mean that the media will probably criticize him as not having done enough, i.e. “if he’d have just passed universal healthcare, if he’d just been firmer on cap and trade, etc”. If he does those things there’ll be some other screwy leftist “idea” that he should have enacted.

I don’t think they’ll have any revelations and admit that the entire philosophy is bankrupt and had no chance for success, but that it wasn’t done to us hard and long enough to work.

The only thing I’m confident of is that they won’t be able to paper over the problems indefinately, and they won’t be able to shout Bush forever. The chickens will eventually come home to roost. When they do the media will try not to be anywhere around.

Too bad we’ll have to pay the price, but that’s the way it is. Hopefully we’ll be able to flush a good bit of this foolishness out of our system and rebuild on a firm foundation.

Jun 7, 2009 - 11:46 am 40. Eggplant:

NahnCee asked:

“What would “turning on him from a leftist perspective” entail, exactly?”

dtmack answered:

“By leftist perspective I mean that the media will probably criticize him as not having done enough, i.e. “if he’d have just passed universal healthcare, if he’d just been firmer on cap and trade, etc”. If he does those things there’ll be some other screwy leftist “idea” that he should have enacted.”

Dtmack has got it right. The moonbats that I know are already repeating the narrative that Obama is insufficiently left wing or has betrayed leftist ideology for the sake of expediency. The moonbats and their MSM enablers will harp on this narrative after it becomes clear that Obama has failed, i.e. we need a President who is even MORE left wing. I should add that this is a “good thing”. The Left’s credibility will become extremely thin after Obama fails. Further harping on an even more leftist agenda will destroy what little credibility they have left. That’s the good news. The bad news is the conservatives currently have No One waiting in the wings to take over after Obama fails. I can’t imagine who would be right for the job (or would want it). The economy will be in the toilet with the nation effectively bankrupt and our enemies on the verge of nuclear break-out. Harry S. Truman had it much easier in comparison and his job was almost impossible.

Jun 7, 2009 - 12:55 pm 41. buddy larsen:

This guy is not likely to trail off quietly like the previous jimmy carter, Jimmy Carter. This time the organization is much stronger, and the love of country much weaker. I half fear failure will bring on a “Samson response”.

Jun 7, 2009 - 2:16 pm 42. Mongoose:

Eggplant: Well reducing the Federal government by 60% and suspending taxes for 2 years would turn the economy around quickly.

To turn it around means a real sea change from the past.

Buddy, i wonder how entrenched they really are. If the eltire establishment Dems, and here I mean the Lnagely crowd, etc., turn on him. He is gone.

The core leader of his movement will be hit with scanal and perhaps even indictments.

Jun 7, 2009 - 2:23 pm 43. buddy larsen:

None of this would’ve happened had we had people from 2000 to 2008 who weren’t afraid to be called “racist” by Barney Frank. It all seems so quaint now.

Jun 7, 2009 - 2:42 pm 44. joe buzz:

quaint it aint….
PA Cat my dad was in the 82nd too. Company K of the 325th Glider Infantry Regiment. Then in the Honor Guard when they were occupying Berlin.

Jun 7, 2009 - 5:17 pm 45. JWT:

Mongoose @42: If you are reluctant to mention by name “the core leader” of “his movement”, and even to clarify who is antecedent to “his movement”, that represents quite a hurdle of institutional paranoia to be overcome prior to MSM willingness to report on scandal and Justice Dept. willingness to pursue indictments, does it not? And the misspelling of Langley, was that deliberate also?

If I’m on the wrong track, please clarify and/or elaborate on your intriguing comment @42.

Thanks!

Jun 7, 2009 - 7:58 pm 46. no mo uro:

One of the untold stories of our current education industry is the very much purposeful void in teaching about the Pacific theater.

The European theater is lauded by the leftists who control/populate the education industry because the Nazis “right of center” politics in the arena of eugenics have been successfully used as a club when conflated (inaccurately) with conservatives’ economic and political views in the U.S. This has been highly successful for them. Three generation of school kids have been exposed to the meme “Nazis bad, Nazis ‘right’, Republicans right, Republicans bad” and at least on an unconscious level this seems to have helped out the Dems, who almost exclusively populate the education industry. We’re now going on sixty years of doing this, and the education establishment is not likely to give up their teaching of “Nazis=Republicans” any time soon.

The problem with the Pacific theater is that the evil of Fascism comes in the form of people who are not white. This creates a cognitive dissonance which the leftist mind has great difficulty resolving. The Japanese were fascist, at minimum as eugenically (and otherwise) brutal as the Germans. Yet they fought against white males, the greatest evil possible to a person with left-of-center politics. In that contest, the obsession with cultural Marxism and the cult of the elevation of the other wins has won out over depicting the Japanese evils in any sort of accurate way. The precious narrative that in any conflict between white males and non-white males, the white males must always be found to be the one at fault and evil must be maintained.

Even though the Japanese were brutal, the fight against them has to be hidden away, and the heroism and brilliance of the Pacific campaign must never be mentioned, because it would mean presenting white people as being morally superior, and in the right vs people who weren’t white. It’s just not permitted in the leftist narrative, even once, because the whole house of cards comes down if that bedrock priciple isn’t absolute.

And so it is that the war in the Pacific theater is barely taught in schools. Check out a high school history text some time. Most kids nowadays know only about how evil it was for us to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, without ever learning about things like the Bataan Death March or the rape of Nanking.

BTW, a similar whitewashing of the Soviets’ role in WWII exists currently, at least in the public schools. If the kids learn about Soviet involvement at all, they learn that the “Russians fought and fought to help us defeat the Nazis” (direct quote from a text I saw). No mention that the Soviets invaded Poland with the Nazis or the brutal campaign in Finland etc.

Jun 8, 2009 - 3:40 am 47. Neil Craig:

Bush shambled on through to the end of his term too even though all the Republican candidates were trying to act as if they had never heard of him. Quite likely this is how Obama will end but that is how the Constitution was, correctly, written.

Jun 8, 2009 - 10:53 am 48. buddy larsen:

One good thing –his followers can’t storm the Winter Palace –he’s IN the Winter Palace.

Jun 8, 2009 - 11:19 am 49. Eggplant:

no mo uro said:

“BTW, a similar whitewashing of the Soviets’ role in WWII exists currently, at least in the public schools. If the kids learn about Soviet involvement at all, they learn that the “Russians fought and fought to help us defeat the Nazis” (direct quote from a text I saw). No mention that the Soviets invaded Poland with the Nazis or the brutal campaign in Finland etc.”

I generally agree with No Mor Uro’s comments about how WW-II’s history is misrepresented. However the most egregious falsehood is that the United States “won” WW-II. Certainly the United States came out best from WW-II (everyone else was a smoking ruin). However we entered WW-II fairly late in the game and our causulties were comparitively modest (Wikipedia has a table). On a percentage basis the Lithuanians were the worst damaged, i.e. 13.71%. The Lithuanians had the misfortune of being invaded by the Soviet Union while the Soviets were allied to the Nazis, then invaded again by the Nazis after Unternehmen Barbarossa and finally invaded again by the Soviets as they kicked out the Nazis.

In terms of the actual fighting, the Soviets did most of the heavy lifting. Yes, the Soviets inflicted it upon themselves after Stalin agreed to the treacherous Molotov-Ribbentoff treaty with Hitler. Still doesn’t change the fact that it was the Russians who killed the most Germans. I should also add that the bulk of Japan’s military was focused on raping and pillaging China. However it was American military might that broke Japan’s back and forced their surrender. America fought a very intelligent war against the Japanese, circumventing their troop concentrations and attacking key strategic military and economic choke points. I should also add that the Western allies showed significant cunning in allowing the Soviets to conquer Berlin. We could have taken that prize but by allowing the Russian’s to take Berlin on their own, we enabled thousands of American soldiers to survive WW-II.

Jun 8, 2009 - 11:22 am 50. Eggplant:

No Mo Uro also said:

“Three generation of school kids have been exposed to the meme “Nazis bad, Nazis ‘right’, Republicans right, Republicans bad” and at least on an unconscious level this seems to have helped out the Dems, who almost exclusively populate the education industry.”

I don’t disagree with this analysis. It’s all part of the “Gramscian thing”. However it should be pointed out that the threat represented by the Nazis was indeed existencial. Had Hitler played his cards a little bit smarter, he might have been able to take over the world or at least permanently occupy a large piece of it. The Japanese on the other hand had gone nuts over the propaganda of Bushido and bit off more than they could chew. They were way out of their league when they went after China, the European powers and the United States at the same time. The Japanese would have been promptly defeated if the world hadn’t been distracted by the Nazis.

Jun 8, 2009 - 11:40 am 51. NahnCee:

“By leftist perspective I mean that the media will probably criticize him as not having done enough …”

* * *

Ahhhh, using the same thinking as Al-Queda in Iraq; i.e., if killing 20 women and children in a market bombing isn’t sufficient to prove your dedication to Allah, then surely killing 60 will really impress Allah and guarantee victory.

And it worked out so well for Al-Q in Iraq, and is now working equally as well for the Taliban in Pakistan.

Jun 8, 2009 - 12:15 pm 52. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”I just hope that the next American city hit by terrorists is DC”"”"”"

Golly, thanks, NahnCee. I just hope it isn’t a nuke, since I’m in the zone.

Ashen: the WWII vets who’re still alive are in their 80’s and 90’s, and they are the fathers of many of the posters here, including my own (Europe, after D-Day, 99th division attached to Patton’s army).

Jun 8, 2009 - 12:33 pm 53. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"”The Japanese would have been promptly defeated if the world hadn’t been distracted by the Nazis.”"”"”"

Which begs an interesting question: in speculating about alternate history, much has been discussed about what the world would have been like had they’re been no WWII, or, more realistically, no WWI (which laid the groundwork for the second war). The problem with the usual speculations is they assume total peace as the alternative. That would be nonsense. In the place of a world war, there would still have been a series of large regional conflicts, since the stresses and strains that led to first one, and then the other war, would still have existed. The U.S. would still have had to fight Japan alongside the British, Australians, New Zealanders, the French, the Dutch, and China. In the absence of WWI, the Austro-Hungarian empire would still have come apart at the seams, and their still would have been upheaval in Russia, but with possibly a different outcome. Russia would likely have fought a second war with Japan over Eastern Siberia (they did, in any case, as Bolsheviks, after the conclusion of their civil war), and would likely have joined the Pacific allies against Japan a decade or so later.

Jun 8, 2009 - 12:42 pm 54. no mo uro:

Eggplant-

It’s true that the Soviets had tremendous casualties. Much of this was in the manner of human wave attacks (Google ‘backing units’). However, their role in the war was greatly aided by Lend-Lease (the U.S.) to the extent that it is very unlikely that they could have waged anything like the campaign they did to plow through Eastern Europe into Germany without it.

For the U.S., the war in Europe was far from an existential one, but it was for the Soviets (along with the rest of Europe), which explains in part the ferocity of their fighting and willingness to take casualties.

Hitler did indeed make horrible errors in tactics (particularly by not developing the Kondor in large numbers as a strategic bomber and in directing the Me 262 program to be for light bombers instead of intercept fighters) and strategy (if he had reversed the order of attacking the UK and the USSR he very well could have closed the deal in Europe). However, it was never a short or long term goal to attack the U.S.

None of which excuses the failure by the education industry to teach American schoolkids about the Pacific theater of WWII.

Jun 8, 2009 - 1:29 pm 55. Eggplant:

No Mo Uro,

Again, I’m not disagreeing (your facts are correct). It’s scary to think what might have happened if Hitler hadn’t been such an idiot. However if Hitler hadn’t been an idiot then WW-II might never have started. Perhaps the ultimate disaster scenario might have been if Hitler had been assassinated shortly after the invasion of Poland and Goering becoming Fuehrer. Assuming that Goering could have broken free of his morphine addiction. he might have been able to steer Germany into a direction where it survived WW-II, i.e. not break the Molotov-Ribbentoff treaty and/or successfully invade Britain. I put Goering in this role because I can’t imagine any of the other top Nazis succeeding Hitler and not bringing Germany to utter ruin.

Jun 8, 2009 - 5:10 pm 56. JWT:

@49:

“I should also add that the Western allies showed significant cunning in allowing the Soviets to conquer Berlin. We could have taken that prize but by allowing the Russian’s to take Berlin on their own, we enabled thousands of American soldiers to survive WW-II.”

By this reasoning we would have been even more cunning not to have entered the European theater at all, which would have saved a hundred thousand American lives.

Actions (and inactions) have consequences. If we had kept the Russians out of Berlin, perhaps eastern Germany would have escaped the Iron Curtain fate.

Jun 8, 2009 - 7:13 pm 57. buddy larsen:

Eggplant/55; Albert Speer could’ve done it –could’ve prevented the Holocaust, could’ve made peace –and likely ultimately deposed the Stalin regime. He was a technocrat, of course, and all business –and not a ‘real’ Nazi. Of course under AH his type was utterly lethal. AH famously said that the power of totalitarianism is that it forces all other regimes to emulate it. He could’ve extended that to people –a psycho in charge makes psychos of everyone in thrall.

Jun 8, 2009 - 7:46 pm 58. Eggplant:

JWT said:

“Actions (and inactions) have consequences. If we had kept the Russians out of Berlin, perhaps eastern Germany would have escaped the Iron Curtain fate.”

If we had participated in the conquest of Berlin then the deaths of thousands of American soldiers would have been a certainty. Someone (Harry S. Truman?) bargained that the certainty of letting those soldiers live had more value than the hypothetical advantage of capturing an already bombed-out city. History has shown that Truman made the correct choice.

buddy larsen said:

“Albert Speer could’ve done it –could’ve prevented the Holocaust, could’ve made peace –and likely ultimately deposed the Stalin regime.”

You’re assuming that Albert Speer could have out maneuvered ultra-scumbags like Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler or Martin Bormann. Speer was an urbane technocrat and not a ruthless psychopath. Goebbels, Himmler or Bormann would have made short work out of Speer. Goering on the other hand (assuming he had freed himself of his morphine addiction) could possibly have out maneuvered even Goebbels.

buddy larsen also said:

“a psycho in charge makes psychos of everyone in thrall.”

Unfortunately, this is generally true. A tiny minority of people in Nazi Germany managed to refrain from covering themselves with excrement, i.e. non-Communists who resisted the Nazis. Max Planck was a notable example of an honorable German.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:10 am 59. buddy larsen:

…and the White Rose.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:26 am

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