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	<title>Comments on: The crucible</title>
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	<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:26:37 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Pseudo-Polymath &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monday Highlights</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-58069</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudo-Polymath &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monday Highlights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-58069</guid>
		<description>[...] Why &#8220;not nuanced&#8221; might be an appropriate response. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why &#8220;not nuanced&#8221; might be an appropriate response. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e73v1</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-58064</link>
		<dc:creator>Stones Cry Out - If they keep silent&#8230; &#187; Things Heard: e73v1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-58064</guid>
		<description>[...] Why &#8220;not nuanced&#8221; might be an appropriate response. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why &#8220;not nuanced&#8221; might be an appropriate response. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NahnCee</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57968</link>
		<dc:creator>NahnCee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57968</guid>
		<description>What does it tell us that Ahmadinnerjacket has been sent out of the country and is staying out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does it tell us that Ahmadinnerjacket has been sent out of the country and is staying out?</p>
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		<title>By: Benson</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57956</link>
		<dc:creator>Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57956</guid>
		<description>27. mac said:

You know, the Iranians haven’t had a lot of luck these past two centuries. This is just another example of it. Why couldn’t this problem come to a head when America had a an actual American sitting in the White House instead of a post turtle?

Reagan and Bushes 41-43 would know how to handle this to America–and Iran’s–benefit. The post turtle hasn’t a clue

The reason it&#039;s happening now is because the Mullah&#039;s knew they could get away with not only a rigged election but could announce the winner so early as to confirm it was rigged. They knew they could do this with no condemnation from the U.S. and Obama. What they didn&#039;t expect was resistance from their own people who had stood quietly by when confronted with the totalitarian extreme&#039;s of the past. If there had been no uprising from the people of Iran the election and its outcome no matter how contrived would have received no comment for the O. I&#039;m sure this would not have been the case under W. The Mullah&#039;s and all of Islam know O not only doesn&#039;t support freedom but is intent on using whatever tactic is necessary to rigg elections here in the U.S. Did O not comment on Iran elections because he feels guilty about his own aspiration. Hardly. Maybe he just didn&#039;t want attention drawn to his own  designs on power. But the similarities are there for anyone who can look.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>27. mac said:</p>
<p>You know, the Iranians haven’t had a lot of luck these past two centuries. This is just another example of it. Why couldn’t this problem come to a head when America had a an actual American sitting in the White House instead of a post turtle?</p>
<p>Reagan and Bushes 41-43 would know how to handle this to America–and Iran’s–benefit. The post turtle hasn’t a clue</p>
<p>The reason it&#8217;s happening now is because the Mullah&#8217;s knew they could get away with not only a rigged election but could announce the winner so early as to confirm it was rigged. They knew they could do this with no condemnation from the U.S. and Obama. What they didn&#8217;t expect was resistance from their own people who had stood quietly by when confronted with the totalitarian extreme&#8217;s of the past. If there had been no uprising from the people of Iran the election and its outcome no matter how contrived would have received no comment for the O. I&#8217;m sure this would not have been the case under W. The Mullah&#8217;s and all of Islam know O not only doesn&#8217;t support freedom but is intent on using whatever tactic is necessary to rigg elections here in the U.S. Did O not comment on Iran elections because he feels guilty about his own aspiration. Hardly. Maybe he just didn&#8217;t want attention drawn to his own  designs on power. But the similarities are there for anyone who can look.</p>
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		<title>By: Komeil</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57949</link>
		<dc:creator>Komeil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57949</guid>
		<description>Her name&#039;s Neda Soltani, 26 years old, born in 1983.

She was an employee of Radman Tour &amp; Travel Agency.

http://www.radmantour.com/

http://www.ketabeavval.ir/Profile/?id=260889

Your weblog is filtered in Iran since June 21, 2009, 8:54 PM local time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Her name&#8217;s Neda Soltani, 26 years old, born in 1983.</p>
<p>She was an employee of Radman Tour &amp; Travel Agency.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.radmantour.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.radmantour.com/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.ketabeavval.ir/Profile/?id=260889" rel="nofollow">http://www.ketabeavval.ir/Profile/?id=260889</a></p>
<p>Your weblog is filtered in Iran since June 21, 2009, 8:54 PM local time!</p>
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		<title>By: mac</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57946</link>
		<dc:creator>mac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57946</guid>
		<description>You know, the Iranians haven&#039;t had a lot of luck these past two centuries. This is just another example of it. Why couldn&#039;t this problem come to a head when America had a an actual American sitting in the White House instead of a post turtle?

Reagan and Bushes 41-43 would know how to handle this to America--and Iran&#039;s--benefit. The post turtle hasn&#039;t a clue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, the Iranians haven&#8217;t had a lot of luck these past two centuries. This is just another example of it. Why couldn&#8217;t this problem come to a head when America had a an actual American sitting in the White House instead of a post turtle?</p>
<p>Reagan and Bushes 41-43 would know how to handle this to America&#8211;and Iran&#8217;s&#8211;benefit. The post turtle hasn&#8217;t a clue.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57944</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark: I&#039;d look which way the regime&#039;s tanks are pointed before blowing them up.

Derek</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark: I&#8217;d look which way the regime&#8217;s tanks are pointed before blowing them up.</p>
<p>Derek</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57942</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57942</guid>
		<description>Fat Man: The reason no tanks are in the streets is quite simple.

No one knows which way they would point. I suspect that the Mullahs have strong suspicions they would point towards them.

If we remember Tiananmen, it took quite a while before the Chinese could get army that would shoot on their own people.

Wretchard describes the meetings of those protesting, and the dynamics that are going on. There are parallel meetings among the powerful. Fear is the driving force.

If you had a regime under attack, and had a group of faithful that would do anything, why arm them only with sticks and blades?

Very interesting, and as wretchard says, the next 48 hours will be crucial.

A few things I note. No one wears masks, or rarely. This is a direct poke in the eye of the regime supported thug groups who refuse to show their faces. I&#039;m quite sure the stories of how the Iraq AlQueda treated people filtered into Iran. These people are hated. These crowds refuse to emulate them, be like them.

The women seem to be a driving force. Yet they are covered. Shrewd, good place to hide rocks or other weapons, maybe. I think it shows a certain maturity and forethought. When a place falls apart, is torn apart like Iran is right now, the danger is that it cannot be put back together. The common thread on all sides is the respect for the faith traditions. The show of respect allows the movement to grow. They cannot directly attack Islam, or the Mullahs for that matter. They attack their manifestations of power. In the end, its the same thing, but these smart women recognize that they need the masses, the crowds.

Quite a few videos show women, older women, bystanders attacked viciously by the regime. From what I understand of the culture, women are not respected personally, and often maltreated. But to maltreat a woman in public is a direct poke in the eye, a matter of honor. This type of attack just doesn&#039;t happen. It wells up from the thought patterns, the rhetoric and core belief of the regime. I think we get a glimpse of why people are standing before armed thugs. It is not the protesters who are radical and dangerous (shame on Obama).

I wonder if there are any Iranians in southern Iraq asking &#039;how do you make this democracy thing work anyways?&#039;.

May we live in interesting times.

Derek</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fat Man: The reason no tanks are in the streets is quite simple.</p>
<p>No one knows which way they would point. I suspect that the Mullahs have strong suspicions they would point towards them.</p>
<p>If we remember Tiananmen, it took quite a while before the Chinese could get army that would shoot on their own people.</p>
<p>Wretchard describes the meetings of those protesting, and the dynamics that are going on. There are parallel meetings among the powerful. Fear is the driving force.</p>
<p>If you had a regime under attack, and had a group of faithful that would do anything, why arm them only with sticks and blades?</p>
<p>Very interesting, and as wretchard says, the next 48 hours will be crucial.</p>
<p>A few things I note. No one wears masks, or rarely. This is a direct poke in the eye of the regime supported thug groups who refuse to show their faces. I&#8217;m quite sure the stories of how the Iraq AlQueda treated people filtered into Iran. These people are hated. These crowds refuse to emulate them, be like them.</p>
<p>The women seem to be a driving force. Yet they are covered. Shrewd, good place to hide rocks or other weapons, maybe. I think it shows a certain maturity and forethought. When a place falls apart, is torn apart like Iran is right now, the danger is that it cannot be put back together. The common thread on all sides is the respect for the faith traditions. The show of respect allows the movement to grow. They cannot directly attack Islam, or the Mullahs for that matter. They attack their manifestations of power. In the end, its the same thing, but these smart women recognize that they need the masses, the crowds.</p>
<p>Quite a few videos show women, older women, bystanders attacked viciously by the regime. From what I understand of the culture, women are not respected personally, and often maltreated. But to maltreat a woman in public is a direct poke in the eye, a matter of honor. This type of attack just doesn&#8217;t happen. It wells up from the thought patterns, the rhetoric and core belief of the regime. I think we get a glimpse of why people are standing before armed thugs. It is not the protesters who are radical and dangerous (shame on Obama).</p>
<p>I wonder if there are any Iranians in southern Iraq asking &#8216;how do you make this democracy thing work anyways?&#8217;.</p>
<p>May we live in interesting times.</p>
<p>Derek</p>
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		<title>By: ADE</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57919</link>
		<dc:creator>ADE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57919</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Beverly, Cannon&lt;/b&gt;

Her name was Neda Soltani.  She was an employee of Rademan Airways.

To be murdered at such a young age; so beautiful; our future struck down.

I haven&#039;t seen anything so tragic.  May she rest in peace.

ADE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Beverly, Cannon</b></p>
<p>Her name was Neda Soltani.  She was an employee of Rademan Airways.</p>
<p>To be murdered at such a young age; so beautiful; our future struck down.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen anything so tragic.  May she rest in peace.</p>
<p>ADE</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/20/the-crucible/comment-page-1/#comment-57918</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4623#comment-57918</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to go back and compare American reaction to the Tianmen Square massacres under Bush 41: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tiananmen Square, 1989 - The Declassified History&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;i&gt;In the days immediately following the crackdown, U.S. and Chinese officials were already sensitive to how recent events would impact the bilateral relationship. On June 5, President Bush had announced the imposition of a package of sanctions on China, to include &quot;suspension of all government-to-government sales and commercial exports of weapons,&quot; and the &quot;suspension of visits between U.S. and Chinese military leaders.&quot; Document 32, an embassy cable sent three weeks later, notes that a military official had lodged a formal complaint that &quot;strongly protested recent U.S. military sanctions,&quot; and had canceled the planned visits of U.S. military officials. Embassy officials felt this to be a &quot;measured response to U.S. sanctions,&quot; indicating that the official &quot;did not adopt a confrontational attitude and emphasized that both sides should take a long-term view of the military relationship.&quot; Two days later, on June 29, the State Department prepared &quot;Themes,&quot; (Document 33), in support of Undersecretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger and national security adviser Brent Scowcroft, who were to leave the next day on a secret trip to China to meet with Deng Xiaoping. &quot;Themes&quot; provided the framework for the discussions the two emissaries would have with Deng. It focused on the global strategic benefits of the U.S.-PRC relationship for both sides, the impact Chinese &quot;internal affairs&quot; could have on the relationship (characterizing the American people as being &quot;shocked and repelled by much of what they have seen and read about recent events in China&quot;), Bush&#039;s view of the importance of the long-term relationship between the US and PRC, and the impact that further repression could have on US relations with China. As Scowcroft later remembered, &quot;The purpose of my trip ... was not negotiations--there was nothing yet to negotiate--but an effort to keep open the lines of communication.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Of course, at the time, the Chinese government was not threatening the destruction of one of our allies, was not openly supporting our enemies on a field of battle (Korea was long past) as Iran is now, and they were not supporting international terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas. Still, I find this history instructive, perhaps President Obama is considering this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting to go back and compare American reaction to the Tianmen Square massacres under Bush 41: <a href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/index.html" rel="nofollow">Tiananmen Square, 1989 &#8211; The Declassified History</a><br />
<i>In the days immediately following the crackdown, U.S. and Chinese officials were already sensitive to how recent events would impact the bilateral relationship. On June 5, President Bush had announced the imposition of a package of sanctions on China, to include &#8220;suspension of all government-to-government sales and commercial exports of weapons,&#8221; and the &#8220;suspension of visits between U.S. and Chinese military leaders.&#8221; Document 32, an embassy cable sent three weeks later, notes that a military official had lodged a formal complaint that &#8220;strongly protested recent U.S. military sanctions,&#8221; and had canceled the planned visits of U.S. military officials. Embassy officials felt this to be a &#8220;measured response to U.S. sanctions,&#8221; indicating that the official &#8220;did not adopt a confrontational attitude and emphasized that both sides should take a long-term view of the military relationship.&#8221; Two days later, on June 29, the State Department prepared &#8220;Themes,&#8221; (Document 33), in support of Undersecretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger and national security adviser Brent Scowcroft, who were to leave the next day on a secret trip to China to meet with Deng Xiaoping. &#8220;Themes&#8221; provided the framework for the discussions the two emissaries would have with Deng. It focused on the global strategic benefits of the U.S.-PRC relationship for both sides, the impact Chinese &#8220;internal affairs&#8221; could have on the relationship (characterizing the American people as being &#8220;shocked and repelled by much of what they have seen and read about recent events in China&#8221;), Bush&#8217;s view of the importance of the long-term relationship between the US and PRC, and the impact that further repression could have on US relations with China. As Scowcroft later remembered, &#8220;The purpose of my trip &#8230; was not negotiations&#8211;there was nothing yet to negotiate&#8211;but an effort to keep open the lines of communication.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Of course, at the time, the Chinese government was not threatening the destruction of one of our allies, was not openly supporting our enemies on a field of battle (Korea was long past) as Iran is now, and they were not supporting international terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas. Still, I find this history instructive, perhaps President Obama is considering this?</p>
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