73 Comments

1. oMan:

Brilliant observation, Wretchard. Both for its accurate connection of dots, and for the unexpectedness of the analogy. Once seen, however, it’s compelling. The political culture is just about ready to be found OD’d on the bathroom floor.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:41 am 2. The Cordon Sanitaire | Michael Jackson:

[...] Click here for a Google Android G1. Read the whole story here [...]

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:25 am 3. Barry 0351:

“What oMan said.”

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:26 am 4. Herb:

People who are at great risk for this are those who for one reason or another havent developed a sufficient sense of their self to resist the blandishments of their posse. I Saw Kobe Bryant on an interview the other night. He went pro after high school. You’d expect a typical NBA thug. No. Man knows where he’s going has some people around him he trusts but also has his feet on the ground. Saw Bo Jackson deliver a wise and meaningful commencement address at Auburn this spring. You’d expect some sort of know-nothing string of cliches. No. Proudest moment of his life was when he graduated, two years late, but fulfilling a promise to his mother.
Everybody here knows people who have a good idea of who they are and what they really stand for. This poor sap was so obviously a wreck he should have had a guardian.
At the risk of sounding obsessive, Im not sure the current President hasn’t had sufficient life to develop an accurate sense of self. It’s not going to be pretty. We’ve seen this movie before.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:35 am 5. RWE:

Over the past few weeks I have been getting an increasingly disquieting feeling about the country. We are working on a project to assemble some data for NASA from various companies and government agencies, a somewhat challenging but straightforward task, and it’s not going too well.

First, there is no one search method that defines who you need to talk to; multiple methods had to be used. Second, about 90% of the time you can’t get ahold of anyone on the phone. You inevitably get shunted to voice mail, leave a message and they never call you back. In some cases there is no answer of any kind, not even a secretary. Sending E-mail works even less well.

One outfit I tried to call was especially embarrassing; I used to work in the very office I needed to call, back 30 plus years ago. Referring to their website I managed to figure out the new name of the organization. But calls to the operator there showed no such outfit listed. Every phone number I was given was wrong by a huge margin, the equivalent of calling the fire department and getting the ladies lingerie desk at JC Penny. When I finally got to the office I needed to talk to they said they had been through 5 reorganizations in the last 8 years; no wonder the phone list is wildly inaccurate.

We have talked about Design Margin here before. Jackson used up his Design Margin years ago and just kept right on truckin’. And he clearly is not the only one.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:41 am 6. Lifeofthemind:

It is a third of a century since Howard Hughes died. Old stories keep coming back.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:42 am 7. oMan:

Herb (#4): “Im not sure the current President hasn’t had sufficient life to develop an accurate sense of self.” No reason that he would. No reason that he ever will. Narcissists focus obsessively on themselves but somehow they end up with far less, and far less useful, self-knowledge than those who look outward in order to see inward.

As for Obama needing more time to become whoever he’s going to be, I am reminded of a story attributed to Abraham Lincoln. He ordered some employee fired, and was asked “Why, Mr. President, you don’t know anything about him!” He answered, “I know that I don’t like his face.” “But, Mr. President, a man is not responsible for his face!” Lincoln asked, “How old is he?” “Forty-five, Mr. President.” “Fire him. After 40, a man is responsible for his face.”

W was not everyone’s cup of tea but at least he was an adult. The contrast is shocking.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:46 am 8. oMan:

RWE (#5): Creepy. If you needed any corroboration, the Fortune 50 company where I spent the last nearly 20 years has gone through and continues to go through exactly that endless re-mapping. Nobody knows who is on which team, how to align efforts, what common resources and learnings are available and relevant to the constantly-revised mission. Never mind the churn of teams and groups being moved around; never mind the paranoia and fatigue as people wait to be fired or moved around yet again and asked to learn more dreck instead of doing what they came to the business to do. Never mind that; there has been huge FTE attrition and with it an irreparable loss of institutional memory. They don’t even know what they don’t know. A kind of corporate Alzheimers. …I think the disease is exacerbated by the downturn (collapse?) of the economy but the changes in IT and communication modalities are also contributing, and permanently so.

My guess is that this problem is nonlinear, i.e. smaller outfits are less vulnerable. Because you can still walk down the hall and ask Joe.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:58 am 9. gokart-mozart:

The decay of many technical branches of the government, like the Center for Disease Control (Which has morphed, thanks to buckets of the green enzyme, into the Centers for Disease Control) is really shocking. When I started in my line of work 35 years ago, one phone call, answered by a human who knew everybody in the place and what they did, was sufficient to obtain authoritative advice and when necessary appropriate intervention.

Now, the multiple people at the virtual switchboard have no idea who you should talk to, usually no one is home, voicemail is not returned, and when you do reach a human it’s a kid who has no idea what you are talking about and whose online database is hopelessly out of date.

It’s gotten so bad that, on June 12, the three major professional societies which deal with infections had to issue a joint public letter to CDC explaining to them why their infection control guidance regarding H1N1 influenza was wrong and asking them to change. As of today, though, CDC is sticking to their guns because they are afraid of pissing off the Labor Department and ultimately the One.

This letter, which in the world of bureaucrats, grants, and contracts was like pissing on the shoe of the CDC Director was a remarkable indicator of how far gone the once-proud CDC is.

I suspect this phenomenon is repeated all over the government.

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:21 am 10. Lifeofthemind:

oMan and gokart-mozart,
Part of what you are seeing is the effective nationalization of the corporate world. Liberals used to hyperventilate about the Corporate Culture and how it was invading government, in the Air Force, or education, in the “factory school.” The truth is that the flow has gone in the other direction. EEO regulations have been designed to make every firm that employs more than a handful of people mimic federal HR policies with detailed job descriptions and explicit evaluation and promotion criteria that eliminate all subjective standards. The fact that those subjective factors as evaluated by an experienced authority are what determines the success or failure of an enterprise is irrelevant to the bureaucrat.

In the Federal service it is a given that GS-15s and above work late and on weekends because that is when all the GS-5s-9s are gone and you can actually walk down the hall and talk to Joe.

About a dozen years ago I ran a small work center at my university. One of the students that I employed was an affirmative action pre-med (he said he was) whose ambition in life was to become an Epidemiologist at CDC. Two questions come to mind. Did he know BHO? Is he the kid who now can’t answer your question?

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:46 am 11. Gordon:

Jackson is just another Elvis. Another example of the stooges capturing the leader can be the military. MacArthur’s enormous ego was egged on by his staff, most of whom were incompetent at best. He visited Korea once, long enough to get off a plane, then back on. The rest of the time he stayed in Japan with his people telling how great he was, how well things were going, and China would never dare …

Mark Clark went around in his own small plane with a pilot, visiting every regiment, firing incompetents as he went. Things got better for the troops but politics settled the outcome.

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:05 am 12. Mr. Robinson:

Boys and girls, can you say, “Tower of Babel”?

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:09 am 13. Dave D.:

…Not that it matters to most posters here, but Gordon (11), I think you were referring to General Matthew Ridgway, who assumed command of the 8th army in Korea after the death of Genl. Walton Walker. It was Ridgway who restored the fighting, aggressive spirit and turned that war around. When McArthur was fired, Ridgway took command of the whole shebang. Only after the stalemate ensued did Mark clark get command.

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:31 am 14. programmer:

RWE and others,

There is indeed a darkness spreading throughout the intricate body that is the United States. But we all know that, and can probably cite chapter and verse of accurate observations and experienced speculation as to why. Most Belmont Clubbers are doers and thinkers and are used to dealing with and fixing broken systems. Our hands and minds itch to fix this mess. But that is not what I wish to write about in this comment.

Amongst the spreading dark, there are brilliant points of light that need to be found and nurtured in any way that we can. An example:

My wife recently was having difficulty communicating a particularly complicated health insurance issue with a company that has a large office in our city-town. After being routed from one phone number to another, she picked up her paper work and drove to the main office and asked to see the person she had been told was responsible for solving the problem (this person was on the 15th floor). Upon being introduced to this very pleasant lady, she was told, “No, that is not my job. That should go to Ann (fictitious name) on the 5th floor. So my beloved, persistent wife hied herself down to the 5th floor where she went to see Ann, who also was a very pleasant lady who said,”No, that is not my job. That should go to Becka (also fictitious, if you haven’t guessed by now) on the 10th floor. So off went my wife to the 10th floor to talk to Becka. She said, (are you waiting for this?),”That is not my job. That is the job of Cindy (also fictitious name) on the 15th floor (the first person my wife had talked to). However, Becka said,”I need a coffee break, let’s go and get Ann and we will all go up and talk to Cindy. This needs to be straightened out”.

As all three ladies, coffee in hand (Becka had provided Mrs. Programmer with coffee by this time) ascended upon Cindy, she looked up, smiled and said,”OK, let me get some coffee and let us deal with this.”

Turned out there was a glitch in the documented procedure manual, my wife’s problem was solved, a change request was submitted for the manual, and a pleasant conversation over coffee about flowers and gardening ensued, before going on about the rest of the day. All because one corporate worker bee said, “That’s not my job, but let me help you.”

Upon rereading this, one additional thought.
My wife is intricately familiar with the workings of the corporate world and is a most pleasant, if persistent, person. The pleasantness always seems to help.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:08 am 15. bogie wheel:

Major celebrities and their armies of retainers, or for that matter high-level government powers-that-be, are just modern versions of courts royal. And like certain ill-fated princes and queens of times past, they are vulnerable to the same mentality of perceiving themselves as godlike creatures.

And why not? The laws of traffic don’t apply to them. (Think: Motorcades that blow through ranks of red lights along a pre-planned, free-flow route.) The laws of ordinary commerce — paying from your own pocket for what you use — don’t apply to them. (When was the last time any pro athlete paid for his own pair of sneakers?) When you seldom shop, cook, schedule, drive or budget for yourself on a daily basis — in other words, subject yourself to all the hassles that ordinary people must navigate in myriad ways just to get through the day, every day, 24/7/365 — it can easily lead to a strange and dangerous dichotomy: increasing functional dependence on the retinue, even as the mentality of one’s power and transcendence increases.

The gilded cages of the VVIPs of the world are self-constructed to some extent (”my time is too valuable to spend shopping for potatoes at Giant Eagle”), and to some extent are driven by the nature of life as a VVIP (”hell, I’d LOVE to be able to go roam the aisles of a grocery store, but (a) the security detail gets apoplectic at the thought of it, or (b) between the paparazzi and the autograph hounds, it’s not worth the hassle”). So it seems the system will not be deconstructed any time soon. There is too much investment in the status quo by industries like the media and those armies of retainers whose jobs and businesses depend on the maintenance of a universe of (so-called) masters.

With entertainment and sports celebrities who go Marie Antoinette, I don’t mind so much since the tragedies tend to be confined to a personal sphere. And let’s be frank … many of these people, while exceptionally beautiful or charming or physically powerful and jaw-droppingly coordinated, are not exactly Ernst Stavro Blofelds walking among us. (Witness the laughable lowering of standards in Celebrity Jeopardy ….) Many of these dears could not find their way out of a paper bag. Even with a GPS in hand. So, yes, please, “shut up and sing.”

Unfortunately, when the uber-insulated, self- and lackey-inflated VVIP-who-would-be-god is a corporate titan, national political leader, or other personality who squats on mountains of cash, weapons, information or media access (sometimes all of the above), the fact that they (a) don’t know firsthand how much it costs to fill up a Ford Explorer because (b) they never pump their own gas, can easily lead to (c) all sorts of disastrous effects on Main Street of bad policies, re: cap-and-trade, gas taxes, ANWR drilling, EPA refinery regs, executive compensation, etc. etc.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:55 am 16. Doug:

“Every phone number I was given was wrong by a huge margin, the equivalent of calling the fire department and getting the ladies lingerie desk at JC Penny. ”
—
That’s because the expertise for extinguishing flaming panties resides in your local Pennies, RWE.
Surprised you were unaware.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:56 am 17. wildernesscalling:

MJ, the KoP got what he wanted! his handlers did, his family did! just as America is getting what it wanted too, we elected them and reelected them and reelected them so now they think they are royalty and we are their serf’s, America will get what it has been sowing soon on the world stage also, as soon as Americains decide our culture was not better then the rest we sowed the seeds of our end…..Lie’s are the truth and the truth is so horrid we call them lies!

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:01 am 18. bogie wheel:

My wife is intricately familiar with the workings of the corporate world and is a most pleasant, if persistent, person. The pleasantness always seems to help.

Hence the old saying, “You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

I say this as a person who has always been too easily aggravated by the chickensh*t of life. One of my personal goals as I grow older is to constantly remind myself that I am dealing with a PERSON at the other end of the problem, and that the person and the problem must be kept separate. This seems to help things go more smoothly most of the time. But I am waiting for the day, which I know will come, when I run up against He/She Who Cannot Be Reasoned With, And Whom No Amount of Patience or Courtesy Will Budge. Argh.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:02 am 19. buddy larsen:

Cap n Trade
King o Pop
Cap n Pop
Trade a King
Cap a Pop
Cop a Nap

Great observation, wretchard –a parallel from hell if ever there was one.

here’s something:

President Obama has bet the economy on his program to grow the government and finance it with a more progressive tax system. It’s hard to miss the irony that he’s pitching this change in Washington even as the same governance model is imploding in three of the largest American states where it has been dominant for years — California, New Jersey and New York.

A decade ago all three states were among America’s most prosperous. California was the unrivaled technology center of the globe. New York was its financial capital. New Jersey is the third wealthiest state in the nation after Connecticut and Massachusetts. All three are now suffering from devastating budget deficits as the bills for years of tax-and-spend governance come due.

These states have been models of “progressive” policies that are supposed to create wealth: high tax rates on the rich, lots of government “investments,” heavy unionization and a large government role in health care…

http://www.transterrestrial.com/?p=20029

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:34 am 20. RWE:

Back in the early 90’s VP Al Gore introduced the crown jewel of his Federal service: the Reinventing Government Initiative. The concept was thought up by one of Gore’s ivory tower academic friends and was stunningly simple: get rid of 30% of the Federal Govt’s civilian workforce and the remaining 70% would became magically more efficient, by definition. And it was handed down from DC as a Peanut Butter Spread, across the board, without regard to missions and responsibilities, Congress being exempted. This was coupled with a 40% reduction in the uniformed military. I’ll let you ponder the implications of those actions on the quality of the workforce, combined with Bill Clinton’s “Hey! Where are we invading this week?” mindset.

Doug: It is true that the fire dept and the lingerie people both deal with some pretty hot stuff, but I don’t think there is much in the way of common skillsets.

A Gen Ridgeway story, one that tells what kind of man he was:

A friend of mine was part of a small Air Force contingent at an Army base in the late 50’s. One day he drives out to the base’s remote airstrip with a load of fuel, and just after he unloads the truck a USAF C-54 appears overhead. The airplane lands and out steps Gen Matthew B. Ridgeway, then Chief of Staff, US Army.

Gen Ridgeway explained that he was just passing by and thought he would stop in and visit the Army base commander, an old friend. The officer in charge of the airfield stammered out that they had no vehicles available but would order a staff car to come fetch the general. At this point my friend stepped up and said that he was heading back to the base and the general could ride with him in the fuel truck. Gen. Ridgeway smiled and said “That would be fine. I’m in a hurry.”

So they rode back to base in the fuel truck, the general not the least bit concerned over riding so far beneath his station. The fuel truck pulled up in front of Base HQ and an officer ran out yelling “Get that fuel truck out of here! We got an effing four star general coming…. Oh! Hello sir!”

My friend asked Gen Ridgeway if he wanted for him to wait to take him back to the airfield in the fuel truck. The general thanked him and said no, they would probably be able to find someone else to drive him back.

Such people are not unheard of, but are too rare in the military, and in the civilian Federal workforce…fergit it.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:45 am 21. Charles:

Hmm according to WND someone just put up for sale Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate on ebay. According to the article The seller has sold a lot of stuff on ebay.(by ebay’s rules that mean’s he’s a reliable seller.) The seller says he has been to Kenya. He says everyone in Kenya knows obama was born in Kenya. It didn’t take too much trouble to get a copy of the kenyan birth certificate there.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:04 am 22. Gordon:

#13–you’re right, it was Ridgeway. I even thought that I had the wrong name but was too lazy to go to the bookshelf–thanks. I recently read Halberstam’s history of the Korean War, the best of the three I’ve read and unflinching regarding MacArthur but a bit sparse on the Marines’ role to the east.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:23 am 23. Patrick Brennan:

On the comments on all the connections falling apart, let me add my own musings:

So where and what is IBM today? Or any of its spun-off children: Memorex, Amdahl, Seagate, Storage Tech, DEC? In other industries: what about AT&T? Woolworths, AIG, CitiBank and oh yeah, GM? What is a blue chip worth these days, anyhow?

30 years ago I worked for an IBM “plug compatible” copycat. We did very well, following the innovator by 12 or 18 months and delivering an equivalent product into the maw of a demanding market Big Blue’s factories could not satisfy. Then the product cycles began to contract.

By the time I retired (2000) product technologies were being introduced before the previous generation’s documentation was printed. And more to the point, IT computing and data storage capacity had become commodities, with vendors scrambling to get a piece of a (relatively speaking) diminishing market.

Simply put, we are making more computers, televisions, Ipods, cars and underwear than there are people to buy them. The consumption economy has struck an iceberg, and the crew has been re-arranging the deckchairs for a decade or two.

The water is still rising in the bilge.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:27 am 24. buddy larsen:

Gordon/22; General Mark Clark even if the wrong name for your example, does fit nicely into this thread’s theme of the costs of substituting image for reality. Among WW2/Europe vets he’s pretty much loathed –due not to style but ‘orders given’ –as, in my dad’s words, “a sorry excuse of a general”.

But not to stray from the post, how’s this, to bridge the weird doings in both our government and our pop culture? Naw, there’s nothing funny going on. And how ’bout that UN statistic, that opium production is up 40 times since the 2001 invasion. Please –what’s most worrisome about THAT is how lousy the quality of the lies is getting. What’s next, one shudders to anticipate.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:36 am 25. Josh:

#5 RWE

I have the same experiences, people who will not pick up the phone or answer email. IM seems better with the yutes of today. I have neighbors who will step over piles of newspapers mistakenly delivered to their door over days and weeks, rather than either read them or at least trash them.

But I would warn you not to make the opposite mistake, which is all too easy today, of thinking that it was not always difficult to make the right contacts and get good responses. We all tend to want to click and have the answer, to think there *is* an answer, when in fact we are being paid to pull together a lot of weak strings and fragile pieces.

Obama makes this second mistake, he repeatedly says all he has to do is dream, and his flunkies, or America, or Allah, will make it so.

–

And oh yeah, Michael Jackson? I don’t think he was captured as such, more like he just got old and worn and weird, and if anything the entourage just hid the fact that he was entirely over and if anything in need of help, though of probably just the kind he would reject, had always rejected, no matter how seldom offered.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:47 am 26. lc:

Bang on. Great post and great comments.

Sort of related, about cap and trade: ostensibly it (cap and trade) is about spurring future growth in an industry “waiting” to be created; positioning for the future (he says). My thought is the government does NOT do innovation, and it is doubtful they do future, either. The image comes to my mind of dunking my dog under water until she grows gills…after all, she’s really resourceful — all she needs is the proper amount of “encouragement”.

Woof.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:55 am 27. Jim Nicholas:

Programmer @14

A delightful story. Please convey my admiration to Mrs. Programmer.

Jim Nicholas

Jun 27, 2009 - 11:43 am 28. Charles:

The Daily Kos reports the ebay sale of Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate has been removed. (But first they show all the details of the sale.)

Jun 27, 2009 - 11:48 am 29. vanderleun:

Michael Jackson: The Howard Hughes of Pop.

Jun 27, 2009 - 11:59 am 30. Charles:

Hmm, now the Obama birth certificate sale is back up on ebay. seller says ebay thought someone had hacked his site. don’t know how long this link will last. I found it at post 41 here.

Jun 27, 2009 - 12:02 pm 31. Mad Fiddler:

ooops. never mind….

Jun 27, 2009 - 12:31 pm 32. Utopia Parkway:

Mad fiddler, the person who disclosed the fraudulent documents put forward by Dan Rather of CBS was Charles Johnson, owner of Little Green Footballs. It’s ironic that he thinks that all those who believe that Obama wasn’t born in the US and have been obsessing over the ‘missing’ nirth certifikat are loons.

Your deduction that because an auction for an alleged Obama nirth certifikat has been removed that proves that it is real is bizarre. Ever heard of a pig in a poke?

The alleged Kenyan nirth certifikat doesn’t exist and never existed. Prove me wrong.

EDIT

Mad Fiddler, OK I see you’ve now deleted your intemperate remarks.

Jun 27, 2009 - 12:42 pm 33. Charles:

Here is a pdf transcript of Kenyan National Assembly on Nov 5, 2008, the day after Obama was elected. Over and over again there are references
to Obama being a “son of the soil” of Kenya and a Kenyan. On page page 3275 there is this passage:

HOUSE SHOULD ADJOURN TO DISCUSS
ELECTION OF MR. BARRACK OBAMA
Ms. Odhiambo: On a point of order,
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is not on this issue.
I stand on a point of order under Standing
Order No.20 to seek leave for adjournment of
the House to discuss the American presidential
election results.
(Applause)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the
President-elect, Mr. Obama, is a son of the soil
of this country. Every other country in this
continent is celebrating the Obama win. It is
only proper and fitting that the country which
he originates from should show the same
excitement, pomp and colour.
………..
There are a lot more of these kinds of things. Individually they might be dismissed. But when the evidence stacks up — dismissal becomes much more difficult.

Jun 27, 2009 - 1:31 pm 34. whiskey:

What’s interesting is WHY some get captured by hangers on, by subordinates, by circles of cronies, and why others do not.

FDR and Stalin, by all accounts, had similar captures, though not to as a great extent, as Hitler. Churchill alone was his own man, having only recently arrived in power and lacking a huge crony network. Same with Truman, Ike, Reagan, and somewhat LBJ. Pretty much most of the other 20th Century Presidents and GWB and Obama have had cronyism rampant, and have been often captured by cronies (”Doing a Heck of a Job Brownie” and Samantha Power — Susan Rice).

I think the capture is the result of a function of extreme wealth and power (that can support the capture network), men at the top assuming the wealth and power is permanent (can afford to have the capture/crony network), men at the top averse to making management decisions (offloading responsibility/blame), and critically, lack of churn.

Hollywood USED to be mostly middle class. Sure John Wayne and his cronies hung out in yachts in Newport Beach. And Beverly Hills and Bel Aire and Malibu characterized the wealthy. But the Harry Guardinos, the Clu Gulagers, the Darren McGavins, lived in the valley, next to police captains, insurance agents, doctors, lawyers, writers, lower level producers and directors, shopped in the same markets, their kids went to the same schools, and so on. There was not a huge social distance and limited space at the top echelons insured that most people stayed at a level where cronyism, entourages, and capture was economically impossible. Athletes would be massive for a few years, and then afterthoughts five years later. They could not afford an entourage.

The problem with the West is the lack of middle class power, to demand churn in the government leadership. Biden held his seat for 35 years. Pelosi nearly as long, same for Reid, Kennedy is approaching Robert Byrd like levels of service (nearly 60 years) and seats pass down to the Kennedy clan like an inheritance. Feinstein and Boxer have been Senators for more than twenty years.

Jun 27, 2009 - 1:51 pm 35. Charles:

Well the obama birth certificate sale on ebay has been pulled again. But you can see it reposted here and here

Jun 27, 2009 - 1:54 pm 36. Charles:

34. whiskey:
The problem with the West is the lack of middle class power, to demand churn in the government leadership. Biden held his seat for 35 years. Pelosi nearly as long, same for Reid, Kennedy is approaching Robert Byrd like levels of service (nearly 60 years) and seats pass down to the Kennedy clan like an inheritance. Feinstein and Boxer have been Senators for more than twenty years.

………

Its not so simple as that. Many times in many states the people have demanded term limits–so as to get the churn in elected officials. They have succeeded. What happens is that power shifts to the bureaucracies and the the lobbiest because it takes many many years to understand the system. By the time the elected official knows the ropes–that elected official is gone.

Jun 27, 2009 - 2:01 pm 37. Insufficiently Sensitive:

They have succeeded. What happens is that power shifts to the bureaucracies and the the lobbiest because it takes many many years to understand the system.

That is how GWB came to face two powerful agencies – the State Department and the CIA – which essentially joined the MSM as the Opposition. Without that opposition and its daily drip-drip-drip of savage criticism and ad hominem innuendo, the widespread Bush hatred that it inspired would not have allowed our current inexperienced, narrowly-educated, slick-talking President to have such an easy time running as the antiBush.

Bush would have had an easier time, had he had a set of cronies half as adept as Obama’s uninhibited Chicago-style politicos in support. Ethics? Hell, they’re in it to win, far more so than the last administration. But then, they’ve still mostly got the CIA and State in harness, and 110% of the MSM. Crony capture, or major authoritarian figure? Too early to see yet. Maybe both.

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:23 pm 38. Clioman:

I don’t know much about Michael Jackson’s insularity from reality, or the causes thereof, but if I were Governor Sanford, I’d say that Somebody up above has gone out of His way to give me a break. Unfortunately, the newly ‘elected’ leader of Iran can say the same thing.

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:31 pm 39. sigintel:

….and Pelosi’s dust up about the CIA lies to congress has evaporated too from the MSM.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:02 pm 40. Mad Fiddler:

Dear U.P.

I still wouldn’t trust the guy to take out the garbage with a troop of boy scouts keeping an eye on him.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:28 pm 41. vinny vidivici:

Excellent metaphor, Wretchard.

Jackson’s handlers assuming mastery over Jackson; the U.S. becomes a government with a nation, instead of the other way around (paraphrasing Reagan).

Charlie Rangel telling the camera-toting citizen-reporter to ‘mind his own business’, the unchallenged arrogance and bullying by the current administration toward its critics and opponents, the impatience or scolding one often receives when calling the office of an elected official.

Congress’ approval at historic lows, yet most incumbents are easily re-elected, many of them career politicians with little understanding of the economic machine they are busy destroying. They no longer believe they really need to answer to us, except in the narrowest sense.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:48 pm 42. K:

A lot of people are very frustrated with US government itself whether the GOP or the Democrats have the most power. It isn’t about party now. It is about an entire political class that doesn’t govern sensibly, doesn’t care, and is increasingly despised.

Nader said for years there was no real difference in the parties. People didn’t listen. They should have.

The problem was Nader, not that message. Not many people wanted him as President so they didn’t listen to what he said about any matter. I agreed that I didn’t want him for President either.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:54 pm 43. K:

About Obama’s birth: Here is my view of the matter.

Back to fundamentals. The only important objection is that the Constitution says the President shall be natural born citizen.

Fair enough. O may be, or not. I certainly don’t know. But it no longer matters. The natural born clause is an instruction to the Electoral College. It is Electors who choose the President.

If a Court is to select the President then that Court might be concerned about where O was born. But that is irrelevant.

If the Congress is to select the President then that Congress might be concerned about where O was born. But Congress does not make the selection.

The Electors selected O as President. He took office. No one in the country has standing to challenge the Elector’s decision. The matter has ended. Let academics figure it out someday.

I know there are history buffs who will say that analysis is flawed. But in every disputed case the question has been who chooses the Electors. There is no provision for anyone but Electors choosing the President.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:12 pm 44. SpeakEasy:

K,
I have no idea if he is or is not either- but I still object to the lack of interest in the question. As you state, “the Constitution says the President shall be natural born citizen.” Regardless of who ignores the matter, is it still not unconstitutional for him to be elected? So we can pick and choose which parts of the Constitition to adhere to and which to ignore? I believe it is a bigger issue than Obama, and should be treated as such. Otherwise, why even bother with the Constitution at all? Let’s just make it all up as we go along shall we?

More to your comment, if it is discovered he IS NOT a natural born citizen, should not the entire Electoral College be dismissed for dereliction of duty and barred from ever serving in that capacity again? Oh, I like the sound of that.

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:52 pm 45. buddy larsen:

I guess the birthplace thing didn’t matter in the rush to be rid of Bush. Just like TARP and Stimulus didn’t matter in the rush to escape meltdown. Just like the economy didn’t matter in the rush to repair the weather. Fill in the other examples, they are many.

The new political method is to create such an uproar that joe and jane will roll over every time, just to get a moment’s peace. THAT’s the main fact, and the reason that ordinary facts don’t seem to matter anymore.

Very reminiscent of the Belle Epoche, and the royal fantasies that undermined the actual truths that, dealt with, would have averted the coming horrors.

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:39 pm 46. K:

Speakeasy: I always hesitate before stating that some questions or problems have no worthwhile answers or solutions.

And I think the question of what to do should O prove to be not natural born falls in that category.

People don’t like to hear that. It seems to be our nature to feel there is an answer, there is a method, and by God, we will find it.

++++++ so, ignoring my own good advice, I will take a shot +++++++++

The Congress could impeach. I seem to recall “high crimes” were offenses directed against the state, and misdemeanors were what we today call ordinary crimes. (Some hold that misdemeanors can be mischief or clearly unreasonable behavior.)

e.g. A President could order the Navy to toss all their shoes in the ocean. After all, he is Commander-In-Chief. That certainly seems to qualify as mischief or clearly unreasonable behavior.

(I hope that is right. One of my traits is to be lazy and not research much.)

Anyway, gaining office by error or deception would be, IMO, a High Crime. It wouldn’t matter if O actually knew where he was born or not. Because what he knew, fairly or unfairly, is not the constitutional test.

That is the only remedy that seems remotely justified. And it ain’t gonna happen.

The Electors themselves are immune. And properly so. They won’t have to answer for making a mistake.

However if you could prove they KNEW then maybe an applicable law can be found. Probably it be in the state election laws rather than the feds. Technically states select their electors.

Jun 27, 2009 - 7:08 pm 47. SpeakEasy:

K,
I’m not a lawyer (nor play one on the Internet) but I would think the Electoral College has some responsibility to ensure the Constitutional requirements are met. I could easily be wrong. If so, someone wiser and/or more knowledgeable (easily found), please correct me. Not for arguments sake, I, like the recently late Grasshopper seek enlightenment.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:31 pm 48. Mad Fiddler:

Factcheck.org has a long web entry verifying pretty darned comprehensively that their people handled, photographed, inspected, and authenticated the Obama birth certificate.

We need to devote our energies to de-lousing the government on the merits and demerits of the performance of the louse.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:29 pm 49. bogie wheel:

The Constitution stipulates the natural-born citizen requirement but does not stipulate an enforcement mechanism. Verifying a presidential candidate’s birthplace is, it seems, everybody’s responsibility; which means it is nobody in particular’s repsonsibility.

Which means, in practical terms, that when the main entities with both a vested interest in the question and the ability to conduct investigations of this type are overtaken by either inertia or partisan interest (hello, Congress … hello, courts … hello, media … hello, secretaries of individual states … hello, FEC), then the candidate with questionable origins will skate through the process as far as he/she otherwise would, without those questions being answered.

Call this a Constitutional version of tragedy of the commons.

One would *like* to think that, if ever it came to pass and be revealed that we had in fact installed into the office of POTUS a non-eligible person, such dereliction of duty (failure to investigate eligibility status during the campaign, BEFORE election day) by scores of officials and highly-paid question-askers across the country would cause public outrage on a scale that would make the 2005 tsunami look like a burp in a kiddie’s pool.

But I ain’t holding my breath.

The cynic in me says that the Augean-Stables-like mess of having to rectify the situation of a fraudulent CinC would cause way too many Americans to just throw up their hands and accept the fraud, because it would be argued that it is less “disruptive” to the nation than to (1) amend the Constitution to fix the loophole (no enforcement mechanism on the eligibility requirements) that got exploited, (2) consider the repeal of all laws signed by the fraud-in-chief, (3) resolve the question of whether a special, new election for POTUS should be held, (4) “truth commissions” on who knew what, when, about the ineligibility of the fraud-in-chief, and (5) last but not least, what exactly to do with the FIC, esp. since the body explicitly charged with having the power to remove POTUS from office (Congress) would be the derelict-in-chief in this chain of events.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:58 pm 50. K:

SpeakEasy:

Now you see the problem. What responsibility does the EC have? Where is that spelled out? And where is penalty and method of trial prescribed?

Punishing the Electors, if a law could be found, would not remove O. Removal should be the goal if he is not constitutionally qualified.

You also see the other problem. Removing a President is a process of politics not courts. Words mean little and facts even less.

Another topic. Yes, many in power now do regard the Constitution as a worthless old paper. They know they are the smarter and better people. They should be allowed to rule as they wish.

Correction, not allowed, but entitled to rule as they wish.

And both parties have the same traits. Do you vote for the yellow dog or the black one? They are both dogs.

Washington has become a mad house and a fantasy. But the court at Versailles was mad and fantastic too. Utterly lovely when seen, appalling when thought of.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:03 pm 51. Robohobo:

Herb @ 4: “…the current President hasn’t had sufficient life to develop an accurate sense of self.”

Yup. Or his sense of self is such that he believes the public narrative. He may not have a private one. The Pantywaist pResident seems to me to really, really shallow. There is no there there, so to say.

Mad Fiddler @ 48: “Factcheck.org has a long web entry …”

Factcheck = HUGE oxymoron. They are a fully owned and operated branch of Soros & Co. The Transnational Progressive movement owns them and The 0bamanation, lock, stock and barrel. They have never checked a fact properly to date fer cryin’ out loud.

I have come to the point belief that the only way to save The Republic is to destroy the cordon sanitaire around all politicians and any others. We have long gone past the point that to save what is left of the culture we must level everything again. Return to basic principles all around.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:26 pm 52. Chiral:

So who’s job will it be to preserve or destroy Mr. Jackson’s computers?

I am leaning towards “destroy”.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:30 pm 53. bogie wheel:

Mad Fiddler -

I have already stated in previous threads that I am undecided on the eligibility question, which is to say, I’m still open to persuasion either way.

Citing FactCheck’s “long web entry” is not at all persuasive, IMO, because it fails to address discrepancies such as this.

The long form posted on the WND site includes details consistent with what a “normal” birth certificate would have — indeed, what mine has: the name of the hospital, and the names and signatures of “parent or other informant,” the attendant, and the local registrar. Names and signatures on official documents have the effect of pinning responsibility on specific individuals, who are expected to be ready and willing to authenticate and even testify if needed to the accuracy of the information on the document. That is precisely why authenticating signatures are required — to prevent fraud, and to make attempts at fraud eradicable.

If someone can cite the name of the Honolulu hospital and the attending at Obama’s birth and back up this citation with evidence … if someone can show us a credible copy of the long form … or if someone can come up with a good reason why none of the above is relevant to Americans who just voted this guy POTUS … well, I would be happy to listen.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:30 pm 54. Dave:

Bogie Wheel: Parentage also plays a role.

His mother was US citizen. Therefore O q

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:32 am 55. Dave:

Opps! What Happened? I was about to say that if O’s Momma was a US citizen, O is a natural born US citizen, by statute.

Locale of birth thus becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Kenyan Birth certificate? Indonesian Passport? Again irrelevant in the face of parentage. Neither Kenya nor Indonesia can repeal or nullify US law.

“Son of the Kenyan soil?” If that rhetoric means anything then Obama is the SECOND ineligible President. The first? John F. Kennedy, that “Son of the Auld Sod Of Ireland” on many occasions.

Lastly, why in the world should Obama produce documentation? Why should he stop the opposition from chasing a Will O The Wisp?
That man did not get to where he is by forcing the opposition to cease and desist
from ineffectual efforts.

If there is a conspiracy in all this, it is one to keep that rumor mill grinding for as along as possible.

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:45 am 56. william:

Michael Jackson is a symbol of the decline of the west!

Jun 28, 2009 - 6:12 am 57. Will:

In reality a Freak.

Jun 28, 2009 - 6:34 am 58. Herb:

#56 william:

WHAT?? Say it aint so.

Jun 28, 2009 - 8:54 am 59. bogie wheel:

Dave -

Your observation of the citizenship status of O’s mother is a reasonable one. But in and of itself it still does not unquestionably resolve the issue, because of the complexity of the interpretation of the law in force at the time (1961).

Snopes has a fairly good examination
of the various possible interpretations of this law with respect to O’s mother. Snopes even comes down on the side of concluding that Obama is a citizen, so it’s not like I’m citing a source favorable to the birthers’ cause here.

But note two quite critical things that Snopes has to say:

1. Whether Stanley Ann Dunham fulfills the residency requirements of the law in effect at the time is very difficult to determine, based on the difficulty of interpreting that statute … BUT -
2. None of this (#1) matters anyway, since Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

In other words, Snopes’ conclusion is based on an assumption not, in many people’s eyes, yet proven.

Here’s the conundrum in a nutshell:

1. If Obama was born on US soil, he is a naturalized US citizen. End of story. Critical question: Have we seen conclusive, official documentation (the long form Hawaii birth certificate) that he was born on US soil?
2. If he was not born on US soil, then the law in effect at that time stating the citizenship and residency requirements of the parents (more accurately, ONE parent), comes into play. Critical factor: Depending on how that law is interpreted, O’s mother may or may not fulfill those requirements.

So while your assertion of the citizenship of his mother is, yes, a reasonable discussion point, it is not as simple a matter as you seem to think, due to the law in effect at the time.

Again, and I can’t stress this enough, I’m not a true believer either way. Where I see reasonable arguments and evidence on either side, I try to acknowledge such. At the same time, I think it’s important to clear out the underbrush of various distractions to get at the heart of the matter. The “son of Kenyan soil” proclamation is IMO a distraction because it means essentially nothing where US legal code is concerned.

Lastly, why in the world should Obama produce documentation? Why should he stop the opposition from chasing a Will O The Wisp?

This is a great question. And one that should really be considered, and not dismissed out of hand.

It’s entirely plausible that an authentic US citizen Obama could find it politically advantageous to NOT reveal definitive official documentation proving his citizenship status, for the very reason that you mention — it keeps a segment of his opponents in a lather, chasing a phantom.

However … just as I have acknowledged the reasonableness of your supposition, I think you should acknowledge the reasonableness of the contention that your theory is not the only one, and that there is, perhaps perhaps, another pyschologically and politically plausible theory to answer the question of “why the lockdown on the documentation?”

And then ask yourself to weigh the pros and cons:

What does he stand to gain, as a qualified citizen, by allowing questions about his citizenship to remain?

versus

What does he stand to lose, as a non-qualified non-citizen, by allowing documentation of his non-citizenship to surface?

… Which answer carries the larger stakes?

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:06 am 60. Chavo:

Forgive the non sequitar but, Wretchard answers lifes fundamental 11 questions http://houseoflove.chebellafiori.com/2009/06/28/11-questions-june-28-2009/

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:08 am 61. Robohobo:

Dave et al-

To be natural born, The 0bamanation must have BOTH parents be citizens. That is the law of the time. I personally ran afoul of this in my past:

1. Born in a foreign country in 1952
2. Both parents could not be located at the time I had to provide citizenship proof
3. Federal district judge insisted that I had to prove citizenship of BOTH parents to be considered a citizen

So, unless The Won can prove BOTH are citizens OR he was born in the US or it’s territories, he is not a citizen. Period.

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:39 pm 62. jms:

Quiddity at Uggabugga makes the observation:

Michael Jackson would be alive today if …

we had a health care plan with a public option.

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:42 pm 63. bogie wheel:

Robohobo -

Your judge was an idiot who didn’t know the law.

I get hacked off at NFL refs who don’t apparently know the NFL rulebook (Troy Polamalu + “football move,” anyone?). But at least the zebras have the excuse of being part-timers.

What’s that judge’s excuse?

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:59 pm 64. Utopia Parkway:

MF @38, you don’t like the guy or trust him. We get that. However, mad raving with no basis in fact don’t make us want to trust you or anyone else who believes things with no evidence.

MF @48, so you now first see the factcheck.org piece? Notice that the date on that piece is almost a year ago.

bw @53, what you call a discrepancy is no such thing. The link you post shows two legitimate Hawaiian birth certificates. One is the so-called long form. This is just the original form filled out by the doctor at the time of birth. The second one is an extract of the original record for Obama. You don’t get the second one without the first one existing. The fields on the extract form for Obama are completely legible and unambiguous: Location of birth: Honolulu, Island of Birth:Oahu, County of Birth:Honolulu. Where is the discrepancy?

You refer to signatures on the form. Obama’s form was signed by the state of Hawaii’s registrar Alvin, T, Onaka, and has the raised seal.

It’s legitimate. Get over it.

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:03 pm 65. bogie wheel:

It’s legitimate. Get over it.

Y’know, rudeness doesn’t really become anyone trying to make a serious argument.

And there is nothing for me to “get over.” All I’m asking for is solid, relevant evidence from whatever side. Since a long-form birth certificate would be the most direct resolution to the question of evidence *whichever way the answer goes* (born in HI or not), that is why I think this document would be extremely useful to the debate.

The second one is an extract of the original record for Obama. You don’t get the second one without the first one existing.

Are you absolutely sure of this? Can you cite the statute of Hawaiian law applicable to 1961 births that a short form gets issued ONLY when a long form (stating additional details such as name of hospital and name of attending) already exists?

Because there’s
this statute saying that Hawaii does or did at one point issue birth certificates for children born out of state, if “the legal parents … had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.”

I realize this statute has a 1982 reference, but it does open the door to the question of what law was in effect in 1961(ish), and whether it was possible for Obama’s parents to have applied for a HI birth certificate even if Obama was born elsewhere.

Anyone with additional information on this (or who has more time than I have to cull through the HI legislature website), I would welcome the input.

(Please note that what I’m not doing is throwing a web link in UP’s face, snottily declaring unconditional victory, and marching off the field.)

You refer to signatures on the form. Obama’s form was signed by the state of Hawaii’s registrar Alvin, T, Onaka, and has the raised seal.

Onaka did not personally sign the certificate. That’s a signature stamp.

But that’s a quibble.

Onaka was not personally present at the birth. That’s the difference between Onaka’s “signature” (stamped) on a short form, and the actual handwritten signature of an attending physician on a long form.

And it is a monumental difference. Forget the zealous standards of court-admissible evidence for just a moment. If you were just a person with common sense, whose testimony would you find more credible in establishing the fact of a baby’s birth? The testimony of the rubber-stamp bureaucrat sitting in an office in the state capital, or the eyewitness testimony of the doctor who held the slippery, squawling little bugger in his/her hands when the baby came out of the chute?

What’s the deal with the rudeness and sniping, folks? The laws here are complex, the documentation incomplete. This is not something as plain and instantaneously settled as 2+2, so I don’t think it makes someone a villain, a nutter, or an imbecile who would like things to be investigated and discussed. Do I like the guy? Clearly, no. Am I secretly hoping he’s outed as a non-citizen? Actually, no. Because I think the resulting chaos would be utterly disastrous for the country. I really would like to be able to say that we’re at least on the level playing field of “we’re all Americans here” and that the Constitution is being followed, on that item, at the very least. All I know is, I’m just an ordinary citizen-voter, and it seems to me that a reasonable standard of evidence has not been met, on an issue of vital importance to the country. I’d love to see it resolved, preferably, without chaos. But chaos is still a better option than living a lie. There are cosmic laws about the consequences of deliberate and vigorous suppression of truth. I really, truly hope that’s not the situation we’re in.

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:28 pm 66. peterike:

I don’t know the truth here on the birth business either. Though for me the most significant proof that O was NOT born in the US is the fact that he spends large amounts of money resisting something as simple as showing everyone the form. That does strike one as odd, to say the least. Sort of like OJ running away in that Bronco from a crime he “didn’t commit.” I know that I always run from crimes I don’t commit. Uh huh.

As for bogie wheel’s hope that a crisis does not ensue (assuming O is proven a non-native), I have to disagree. I welcome the crisis and the chaos for two reasons. One, and most importantly, it will serve greatly to focus US citizens on that rapidly fading document, The Constitution. Most of them haven’t a clue what it’s value is to them. A crisis would focus the collective mind greatly.

Second, it would almost assure a Republican landslide in 2010. Whatever the legal reality or who enforces what, the American electorate that is still American would be outraged. They would see Obama as illegitimate. People would storm to the polls in numbers so great that even ACORN couldn’t fix enough votes. Obama’s agenda would be instantly frozen. Even the Dems might start talking impeachment because the voter outrage would frighten them.

So yes, I would welcome that chaos. Because it would at least be a healthy form of chaos. Without getting rid of Obama, we’re heading toward chaos of a much different kind, the cosmic kind, with a capital C. Fans of Michael Moorcock’s “Elric” books will know the sort of Chaos I’m referring to.

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:58 pm 67. peterike:

And I love this from the WND article.

WND has reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama includes his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records, and his adoption records.

Would have made a nice campaign ad for McCain. As if.

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:02 pm 68. Utopia Parkway:

bw @65, The link of the statute that you post doesn’t say what you suggest it says. It says that children born outside of HI of Hawaiian parents can have birth certificates issued in HI. It doesn’t say that those birth certificates will fraudulently certify that those children born outside of HI were born in HI. If a child were born in say, Canada, to Hawaiian residents the child could get a birth certificate from the Hawaiian registrar that would say the child was born in Canada.

Do you really believe that the state of HI would provide birth certificates that say a person was born in HI when they really weren’t born there? That would be incredible.

The Obama birth certificate states that he was born in Honolulu. The statute you cite isn’t relevant.

Do you have an example of a Hawaiian birth certificate for someone known to have been born somewhere else?

The whole point of having birth records is so that years after the fact the date, time, and place can be established. This is based in part on the registrar and his ’stamped’ signatures certifying things. If you’re not going to accept the stamped signature of the registrar of Hawaii then there’s not really anything to talk about.

This whole argument was at its height a year ago. For me it ended with the factcheck.org link shown above. The registrar of HI was quoted in the news at that time as saying that he had seen the original birth document.

For those who believe that factcheck.org is owned by Soros I doubt the long form would satisfy them either. At this point if you want to say that O was not born in HI you need to provide evidence of that. Claiming that there is a lack of evidence that he was born there isn’t sufficient.

Jun 28, 2009 - 6:02 pm 69. peterike:

Do you really believe that the state of HI would provide birth certificates that say a person was born in HI when they really weren’t born there? That would be incredible.

Do you think Hawaiian bureacrats are completely incorruptible? Or not ready, willing and able to play partisan politics?

So the registrar was “quoted in the news” as saying he had “seen” the original birth document. Seen it, but didn’t produce it. Are we to believe there’s just no way that this registrar is anything but the most honorable and incorruptible of public servants?

Yeah, and the Clintons never told a lie either.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:14 pm 70. Mad Fiddler:

I grovel with shame and chagrin at my lapse.

I should’a looked up the provenance of Factcheck.org.

I’ll do better.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:15 pm 71. RattlerGator:

Barack Obama could not have chosen a more perfect vehicle to foolishly occupy certain Republicans and conservatives on a fruitless chase. I am blown away how seemingly sane people go on and on about this birth certificate non-issue. I’m equally stunned to be confronted by people who believe something is going to be done, or should be done, to remove Obama on this issue. It isn’t going to happen and it is exasperating to see our side (however small the actual number of participants) waste so much time on this foolishness. There’s nothing ironic about Charles Johnson’s position; it’s straight common sense.

Vanderleun, I like you assessment of Michael Jackson: the Howard Hughes of Pop.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:28 pm 72. Utopia Parkway:

peterike, Is that really your argument? People can be corrupted so Obama obviously wasn’t born in Hawaii?

How about some affirmative evidence? How about his Kenyan birth certificate? Or some proof that the registrar in HI was paid off, or is related to Obama, or is some kind of rabid Democrat?

You offer no reasonable argument.

Your argument is about the same as all the legal cases that have been thrown out of court. No argument so no case.

MF, Your contrition is noted and appreciated.

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:48 pm 73. peterike:

peterike, Is that really your argument? People can be corrupted so Obama obviously wasn’t born in Hawaii?

How about some affirmative evidence? How about his Kenyan birth certificate? Or some proof that the registrar in HI was paid off, or is related to Obama, or is some kind of rabid Democrat?

Now, now. I never said that was my “argument”. I only said that your argument — somebody said he saw something — was lightweight and unconvincing. As for rabid Democrats, I have no idea. But Hawaii is a Dem dominated state.

I did finally read the FactCheck piece as well, and found it to be far from a 100% case. Producing a short form birth certificate stamped in 2007? And they even admit they never saw the long form. Whatever.

Anyway, RattlerGator is right on the uselessness of all this. Whatever the truth, the story is dead and will remain so, no matter what proof is found one way or the other.

Jun 29, 2009 - 5:49 am

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