47 Comments

1. viiny vidivici:

Another balloon going up? Or just more Chavismo bluster?

Events seem to be gathering speed. Gee, can’t wait for the North Korean fireworks show on the 4th. Maybe by that time the 24/7 Michael Jackson wake will be over.

Jun 28, 2009 - 8:22 am 2. bob:

President Zelaya was elected in 2006 to a four-year term. The 1982 constitution bans re-election

Honduras isn’t exaactly my digs, but I kinda like that constitution. Term limited. ‘Never reformed, because never deformed.’ We should be so lucky.

Jun 28, 2009 - 8:32 am 3. Charles:

Actually the one power to stop chavez–the USA–chavez would think would be in his camp.

these kinds of misunderstandings do happen. think gulf war I

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:31 am 4. bob:

Venezuelans stay home! Down with Venezuelan interventionism! Down with Venezuelan imperialism! Down with the ugly Venezuelan!

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:37 am 5. Charles:

Likely the venezuelans won’t need to go anywhere.Obama has chavez’s back

Obama concerned over expulsion of Honduran leader

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:43 am 6. RWE:

The Iranian election would have provided the perfect opportunity to knock out an element of the Axis of Evil – if we had the right POTUS.

A intervention by Chavez in Honduras would offer the perfect opportunity to knock out an element of the Axis of Fools – if we had the right POTUS.

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:44 am 7. MarkJ:

Obama is screwed on this one: if he doesn’t lift a finger to help Zelaya, then that dude is gone. If he does try to intervene on Zelaya’s behalf the Hondurans can, quite justifiably, yell, “Yanqui imperialismo!” and tell him to butt out of what is purely an internal affair.

Indeed, in a delicious turn of the screw, the Hondurans can–and probably will–loudly remind Dear Leader that, in attempting to intervene, he’ll be ignoring the texts of…his own speeches.

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:01 am 8. bob:

Yep, with the Norks testing nuclear bombs and firing missiles towards Hawaii, we cut missile defense. The Iranians rise up, blood all over the streets, after a week or ten days we express a little concern. Not enough though to jeopardize our chances to sweet talk the twelvers out of their nuclear program. We shun our friends, make nice with our enemies. What will really get our blood boiling though is a pleasant peaceful sensible coup in Honduras. We can’t let this stand!

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:08 am 9. Lord Acton:

That SlowJoeBiden sure knew what he was talking about when he said theWon would be tested in the first 6 months. The student-in-chief is trying to see if he can put the test off so he can concentrate like-a-freakin’ laser on ruining the economy, which, after all, is job one.

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:19 am 10. mariner:

Obama isn’t screwed, no matter what happens.

We The People of the United States, on the other hand, are SO screwed!

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:21 am 11. no mo uro:

Apparently, our Secretary of State doesn’t like this business of the Hondurans enforcing their constitution so much either.

Jun 28, 2009 - 11:14 am 12. Subotai Bahadur:

Buraq Hussein Obama’s foreign policy course in this issue is both obvious and as usual driven not by US interests and law; but rather by ideology and pure personal self interest.

Being an ally of Hugo Chavez of Venezuela is a first order data point [rebuttable by further data. I admit that I am far from an attentive viewer of Central American politics.] indicative that ex-President Manuel Zelaya is a Leftist, if not an outright Marxist. That makes him an ideological ally of Obama. If Buraq’s fist-bump buddy wants to oust the Honduran government to re-install a Leftist trying to seize power; Buraq will naturally tend to want to help him achieve that goal.

But the tipping point is reached when you consider how this incident relates to Buraq himself. Consider:

1) We have a Constitution that places explicit limits on the power of the president.

2) The president deliberately and openly flouts the Constitution and attempts to set himself in power, functionally indefinitely; although the implicit promise in what he says is that he only wants one more term.

3) The Honduran Congress, like Congresses everywhere, when faced with having to make a real decision that could have real consequences for them [If they oppose him and he wins, they get stood in front of a wall. If they support him and he wins, they become surplus and eventually will be stood against a wall. If he loses either with or without their support, there is the prospect of a civil war supported by Cuba and /or Venezuela that will have the typical savagery of Marxist insurgencies in Latin America, in which case both sides will be trying to kill them. There is no prospect of the United States assisting in supporting the rule of law, which no longer exists in the US itself.] are doing the “Three Monkeys” tactic; hearing, seeing, and speaking no evil.

4) The Honduran Supreme Court, which apparently has a far higher testosterone count than ours, has ruled that Zelaya’s attempt to continue to hold power is an explicit violation of their Constitution and says he can’t.

5) Zelaya ignored that ruling and was proceeding to seize power.

6) The Honduran military, whose Oath is to their Constitution, has removed him from power for that violation. It was not done ideally, from my point of view; because I think the rule of law would have been better served by bringing him to trial either before preferably the Supreme Court, or a military tribunal to convict him of treason and have him pay the penalty. Far less ideally, he could have been just executed. Releasing him to foment trouble is a poor long term compromise.

Consider this from Buraq’s point of view.

A president massively and openly violates his country’s Constitution, and the military honors its Oath to preserve, protect , and defend that Constitution. That is an existential threat to The One and all he stands for.

What we will likely see is US diplomatic, military, and economic pressure to bring Zelaya back to power on his own terms. If that fails or concurrently with that effort, we will see behind the scenes support for a Leftist insurgency sponsored by Venezuela and/or Cuba to bring about that end. [Think of the "opportunity" to atone for past US "sins" against those countries; as our media will express it if they are allowed to mention it.]

It is within the realm of conception, but not of a high order of probability, that we will see US forces on the streets of Tegucigalpa protecting Zelaya’s return.

Our military also swears its Oath; not to president, Party, or ideology, but to the United States Constitution. That Oath contains the positive duty to Preserve, Protect, and Defend that Constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic. Ain’t much wiggle room there.

I would hope that a number of officers and enlisted personnel are watching this and taking a lesson as to their duty in the uttermost extremity. I’m pretty sure that at least one I know of is.

Subotai Bahadur

Jun 28, 2009 - 11:18 am 13. CPT. Charles:

Well, right now it’s just ‘talk’ since there’s NO border commonality; unless Chavez has [A] about 20,000+ paratroops handy and the appropriate air assets to back up something like that, or [B] the capacity to mount a sea-born invasion [which he doesn't...], then that only leaves:

[C] Muscle the OAS into forcing Zelaya’s reinstatement. One gambit would be to ship LOTS of armed Venezuelan ‘volunteers’ into Nicaragua IF he could the OAS to go along [Dear Leaders 'stance' is an 'X' factor on that one...] with that idea.

Otherwise, no. Ortega may be Chavez’s bud, but without the appropriate political cover, moving Venezuelan troops would start a very large BAD rock rolling downhill. Don’t think for a millisecond that Colombia [no friend of Chavez], or El Salvador [who haven't forgotten Ortega's role in their troubled past] would sit quietly while that went down.

Nope, right now the ‘chief’ player is Dear Leader. What he’ll do is anybody’s guess.

I have my own thoughts on that, but I’ll keep my cards face down for the moment.

Jun 28, 2009 - 11:30 am 14. wws:

Chavez doesn’t have the military capability to do either an amphibious or air assault with any force, so he is not capable of taking any serious military action against Honduras. Coming overland through Nicaragua is a possibility, but the logistics of that would be a nightmare not to mention that Nicaragua would essentially have to declare war on it’s neighbor for that to happen. Honduras may not have that powerful a military, but in this situation the advantage is very heavily to the defenders.

So, Chavez’z mouth is writing checks that his miltary can’t cash.

heh – just saw that Charles was thinking on the same lines at the same time. Good point about the OAS, and why Ortega will be reluctant to openly support an invasion of Honduras.

Jun 28, 2009 - 11:31 am 15. Joe Hill:

Zelaya was breaking so many Honduran laws with that referendum that even his own congressional party which is in the majority didn’t support him. If Obama gets on the wrong side on this it will be proof that he is either a potentially dangerous totalitarian or an imbecile or both. Heretofore I thought he was simply an ill informed twit.

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:06 pm 16. philo:

Tegucigalpa 2009 = Washington 2012 or 2016?

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:33 pm 17. Fresh Bilge » Axis of Evil:

[...] From the comment thread on a post at Belmont Club. Richard Fernandez asked “Will Chavez intervene in Honduras?” One respondent was more [...]

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:48 pm 18. JFSanders:

“Maybe by that time the 24/7 Michael Jackson wake will be over.”

That my friend, is THE best reason to not have a television.

8.bob: It isn’t a “coup” if they are upholding the constitution and enforcing the law and separation of powers as dictated by the constitution. Only the leftists are calling it a coup. It would be nice to see the goat get his coup de gras…

Would that we had a four year term limit on all politicians and bureaucrats…

Jun 28, 2009 - 1:32 pm 19. Tony:

Speaking of TV, did you ever notice it rhymes with E-VIL ?

There’s gotta be some serious channels, where they don’t do the pop celebrity news / political scandals.

O wait, you mean I should subscirbe to PJTV….

TV, Evil, same difference. Unless you get to pick what the camera is looking at, then it’s wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

That’s what we’re going for right?

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:57 pm 20. Mark:

The NYT has a story on the Honduras news, but the comments section is more interesting than the news report. Hondurans are commenting in support of the ouster. Socialist non-Hondurans are outraged at the coup, seeing it, of course, as banana republic history revisited.

Honduras is a nice country but needs some reform desperately, especially in political patronage corruption and in education. They won’t get it with Zelaya, nor probably with any new leader. The country has problems that go beyond a single leader. But democracy allows criticism and discussion, and Hondurans appreciate that.

Lord Acton, writes, above: “That SlowJoeBiden sure knew what he was talking about when he said theWon would be tested in the first 6 months.”

There are lots of squalls thus far for the One, but no real test. All the situations have required only his words to still the winds. Sooner or later, however, he is going to encounter an international crisis in which he is going to be a need to show force. I expect his show of force is going to look like farce when it happens. I hope it won’t be in Honduras, which is just trying to get through its usual miserably hot summer.

Jun 28, 2009 - 3:01 pm 21. Robohobo:

Subotai @ 12: “I would hope that a number of officers and enlisted personnel are watching this and taking a lesson as to their duty in the uttermost extremity. I’m pretty sure that at least one I know of is.”

+1, that you now know of. The thing those who did not serve miss and some who did, is there was no point, during out-processing to civilian life, someone said, “Sign here. This releases you from that oath you took when you entered.” There will be those feckless ones who will argue that it does, but they are……..feckless.

Cpt Charles – Yeah but in looking at Google Earth, Nicaragua shares a LOOOOONG border with Honduras. Sadly. And circumstances could be such that Ortega would be ‘asked’ for assistance which he could gladly provide. As for cards face down, I say he will vote Pantywaist.

Should BHO side with Zelaya then we know he is a totalitarian. Should he do nothing then we know he is either a twit or ?

Jun 28, 2009 - 3:09 pm 22. Jonn Lilyea:

Actually Chavez has already threatened to overthrow any Honduran goverment not headed by Zelaya according to El Universal, a Spanish-language Caracas newspaper; “If they administer an oath to Micheletti (Roberto Micheletti, president of the Congress of Honduras), or to Peleletti or Gafetti or Goriletti we will overthrow it. We will overthrow it, I say” , Chávez said….”

http://www.eluniversal.com/2009/06/28/int_ava_chavez-dice-que-derr_28A2428565.shtml

Jun 28, 2009 - 3:27 pm 23. Belmont Club » Will Chavez intervene in Honduras? | Honduras today:

[...] the original here: Belmont Club » Will Chavez intervene in Honduras? Tags: bolivia, enforcing-their, hondurans, obama, uses-ostensibly World [...]

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:12 pm 24. bob:

Coup isn’t a good choice of words. A patriotic general ordered some patriotic soldiers to enforce a patriotic court ruling is better.

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:41 pm 25. Gordon:

Robo/21–yes, but how is the terrain crossing the border? Moving an army is not so easy. I know the Atlantic Coast is awful and I suspect most of the rest is forested with few good roads–crossing that border with enough troops would be hard for our Army.

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:08 pm 26. MarkJ:

Chavez may be taking a leaf from Il Duce. Unfortunately for Chavez, he can’t count on any better results:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:15 pm 27. Alexis:

It looks as though the Honduran military is showing more loyalty to the Honduran Constitution than the United States military showed to the United States Constitution during the tenure of Andrew Jackson.

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:47 pm 28. 11B40:

Greetings:

Do you mean to imply by your headline that President Chavez hasn’t already been intervening in Houduras?

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:52 pm 29. whiskey:

Obama will order troops alongside Chavez to restore Chavez’s puppet any day now.

The man is a Muslim. He hates America. That’s all there is to it.

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:57 pm 30. George:

Alexis,

What’s with the swipe a Jackson? If it wasn’t for him we’d be sipping tea and counting our Euros.

If only his victory over the central bank had been permanent we might not now be circling the drain in a deflationary meltdown.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:01 pm 31. Cowboy:

The White House has come out saying that it’s on the side of law and order. It is also on the side of Zelaya.

But that is a contradiction. The Honduran Consititution is very clear on the term limits and even has a provision (Article 239) which says that any official who even entertains a move to get around them shall be immediately discharged of duties and banned from public office for ten years. Furthermore, the Honduran Army went in there after Zelaya with a court order, a Supreme Court decision, and the backing of the Honduran Congress.

You can’t say you’re for law, order and the democratic process and support El Presidente on this one. That’s doublespeak.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:06 pm 32. CPT. Charles:

Robohobo [1509hrs] Yup, you’re right about the border, but don’t forget the ‘internal’ political dynamic concerning Nicaragua. Ortega [re]gained the presidency by declaring that he was a ‘changed’ man. He was elected with a plurality, not an ‘overwhelming’ majority.

Declaring hostilities against Honduras and throwing in with Chavez [let's set aside the issue of Venezuelan troops pouring into the country...], would let everyone know that the ‘new’ Ortega is a LIE. So, unless he’s going to do a ‘two-for-one’: i.e.-seize power and throw in with Chavez, he’s constrained UNLESS [my] scenario [C] kicks in. With the fig leaf of a ‘International / Central American unity’ mandate in his pocket, Ortega could begin mischief against Honduras, but there’s NO guarantee his domestic opponents would remain silent.

Well, be that as it may, this situation is still playing out. For the moment, the main action is taking place within the ‘halls’ of the OAS. So, unless Chavez [with Obama's help, overt or covert] can roll the majority of the OAS states into backing his position, things will remain as they are.

Obama COULD take the role of ’standing up for democracy’, but facts are not on his side. Of course, that wouldn’t stop him, but by siding with a proven would-be tyrant he runs the risk of getting a ‘label’ he might not be able to shake off BEFORE the 2010 elections.

That might be the ONLY thing that gives him pause.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:17 pm 33. A Conservative Teacher:

Obama jumped pretty fast to support Castro and Chavez on this one. I’m not expert in Hondorus politics, but it seems like Obama really really wants leftist leaders in charge of as many nations as possible. Another idiot mistake by this communist President.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:25 pm 34. CPT. Charles:

Cowboy [1906hrs] Rush will nail his sorry ass to the barn door if he holds to that position, as will the rest of the talk-radio community [Levin will go nuclear...].

Let’s see if Dear Leader’s still singing that tune by the end of this week.

This is an anvil the Republicans can hang around his neck, hell I would.

The old saw of: ‘politics ends at the water’s edge’ doesn’t hold here.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:39 pm 35. Mad Fiddler:

This is more like David Alan Grier’s “Comedy You Can Believe In” hour by hour.

But think about it: Sending U.S. troops to work WITH Chavez in putting down a Central American government hostile to the left accomplishes many wonderful things for the U.S.

Improves relations w Castro
Improves relations w Chavez
Improves relations with, well, MOST ALL of the leftists in South America.
Ditto for Europe.
Gives the stupid conservatives in the US and Canada a lot to think about. (Time to start changing your tune, buster, or you’re up against the wall soon.)

Sadly, doesn’t do a thing to soften the onslaught of Jihad, still going strong after 14 centuries.

Won’t impress the Russians or the Chinese, nor India. But what the hell, that’s only about half the world’s population.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:48 pm 36. Greg:

This man was a despot wannabe aligned with Hugo Chavez. His OWN political party, the Congress, the Supreme Court AND the military supported the coup to ” save democracy”,,,,, and what does our President do? He issues a statement today that he supports the ousted leftist dictator-Hugo Chavez wannabe and demands the people of Honduras return him to power.

This is the same US president that refused to support the dying students in the streets of Iran because he didnt want to interfere in the internal affairs of Iran. THEN KEEP YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT ABOUT HONDURAS and at least stay consistant. Mr. Obama, TURN OFF YOUR TELEPROMPTER AND SHUT UP!

Jun 28, 2009 - 8:41 pm 37. peterike:

On the Chavez front, I want to toss out a thought I had recently, based on some things Buddy Larsen was talking about. Long story short: though the roads are foggy, when you put together the story of how the economy got tanked, including the mysterious shorting and such, some of those roads seem to lead to Venezuela. The economy, of course, also lead to Mr. Obama becoming president.

Now, thought experiment. For the sake of argument, let’s say that Chavez was involved in the push to throw the economy off the cliff. And let’s just say O knew all about it. Hmmmm.

That meeting of theirs, the fist-bump jive mah-brotha thing. Granted, they are ideological allies, but it’s still a weird move to do with someone you’ve never met or had any dealings with. Rather, it seems a lot more like the behavior of people who’ve known each other for quite a while but have never actually met in person.

In other words, it was a hearty “thanks bro” from Barack to Chavez. They both knew what it was about. Naturally, Obama says nothing when Chavez gets up to torch the country Obama pretends to care about.

Yeah, so just who is showing up on Obama’s precious Blackberry?

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:28 pm 38. Robohobo:

So, the Pantywaist pResident came out in support of the Leftist thug? No surprise there. Reference Justice letting the New Black Panthers in Philly off the hook for voter intimidation. “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

The invaders can go into Honduras through the port at La Union and have a short, straight shot to Tegucigalpa. There are lots of roads via the Nicaragua/Honduras border that are not too bad. The terrain is tough but not that bad for a modern army.

I was thinking between posts about what is going on. We have Russia in Venezuela building navy bases. A communist in Nicaragua (I do not care if he is ‘reformed’, that just means he is lying). Where is El Salvador these days? They were a problem but I am not up on them or their political landscape these days. We have a Transnationalist or perhaps straight Communist in the WH. The NorK’s making messes in the China Sea. Iranians being, well, nutters, as usual. Seems to me that someone is brewing up something, I am not sure what, to perhaps draw the US into a conflict that The 0bamanation can ‘lose’ to show us the error of our ways and open us up to martial law. Something just smells bad and it ain’t me.

Money quote from The Won:

“As the Organization of American States did on Friday, I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter,” Obama said in a statement.

“Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference,” he said.

Can someone interpret for me? That does not seem to really say anything. Is he voting ‘present’ again?

Jun 28, 2009 - 10:24 pm 39. santos:

The people of honduras don’t want hugo chaves help, nor they want the president to be re-elected. let’s do what the constitution says. Hugo Chaves it’s not welcome in honduras. Have him fix his own country first. The hondruans are in peace and don’t need Hugo Chaves threats to go to war.

Jun 29, 2009 - 12:51 am 40. Cmblake6’s Weblog:

[...] 2009 June 29 by cmblake6 The one where the President (Zelaya) decides to become pResident against the Constitutional term lim… [...]

Jun 29, 2009 - 6:20 am 41. dan:

i think chavez is referring to ideological, and economic subversion, not military intervention. honduras is a tiny state on the border of leftist outposts; venezuela is in alliance with castro, putin, morales, etc. stalin demonstrated how to retain the apparent moral high ground yet manage to install a government opposed to the requirements of morality. presumably chavez, who has used his own country as a laboratory, has learned how to export these same tactics to a country like honduras. it may not occur this month, but – like ortega – chavez & co. will not give up until the russian fleet can dock at will and on friendly terms in the honduran port and honduran banks can be used as readily for laundering drug and coruption money.

Jun 29, 2009 - 12:35 pm 42. Subotai Bahadur:

In #12 above, I mentioned the limited possibility that we would see US troops on the streets of Tegucigalpa, Honduras enforcing the re-installation of Manuel Zelaya as president for life and suppressing the Honduran Congress, Supreme Court, and Constitution. Buraq Hussein Obama has just declared the removal of Zelaya by those three as being “illegal” and a “coup”. The odds of those US troops being there doing that just went up.

And given that Zelaya tried to illegally and unconstitutionally extend his term in violation of their Constitution, and noting that Articles 236-239 inclusive of the Honduran Constitution set the presidential term of office AND specifically state that any Honduran government official who attempts to change those provisions unconstitutionally is immediately removed from office and barred from any government functions for 10 years; one has to wonder what Buraq thinks of the limitations of Article XXII of our Constitution.

Subotai Bahadur

Jun 29, 2009 - 2:28 pm 43. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"”What’s with the swipe a Jackson? If it wasn’t for him we’d be sipping tea and counting our Euros.

If only his victory over the central bank had been permanent we might not now be circling the drain in a deflationary meltdown.”"”"”"”

Uh, George: Jackson’s monetary policies led to the Panic of 1837. His defiance of the Supreme Court on the Cherokee land rights case would not have meant a thwarting of white American expansion, since it would have been business as usual with most other tribes, especially west of the Mississippi.

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:11 pm 44. Roderick Reilly:

Seriously, what are the lefties in Honduras so worked up about? It’s not like Chile and Pinochet, where they were getting imprisoned, tortured, and killed left and right. Allende and his bunch should have been so lucky.

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:14 pm 45. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"“Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference,” he said.

Can someone interpret for me? That does not seem to really say anything. Is he voting ‘present’ again?”"”"”"

Yes, he is voting present. What he said above is what the Honduran military, supreme court, and legislature did. To the best of my knowledge, the Honduran army didn’t fire a shot; I call the peaceful. But by wording it like he did, he can sound — to a certain constituency — like he’s protesting what went on.

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:22 pm 46. Robohobo:

Roderick – As more of the story and back story came out, The Won did indeed vote present and maybe a touch more. It seems he is making a small concession to his fellow Leftists Chavez, Morales and Ortega.

Like someone said above, the odds that some Leftist’s military could be on the streets of Tegucigalpa.

Subotai: “…one has to wonder what Buraq thinks of the limitations of Article XXII of our Constitution.”

I do believe we have seen the last Presidential election this republic will ever see. We may have the midterms next year but after that I would be very surprised to see the 2012 nationals happen. I would like to be proven wrong, but…. I keep asking what is the vehicle for the declaration of martial law and the abandonment of the Constitution.

Jun 29, 2009 - 9:09 pm 47. Cowboy:

Obama has doubled down on his support for Zelaya, with new statements of support from the White House and from Hillary Clinton. Additionally, Zelaya was in New York to meet with the United Nations. He’s stopped by Washington, DC on his way back to Central America.

Bogota has begun to weigh in by insinuating that the Zelaya’s Honduras had a comfortable relationship with drug smugglers and has served as a staging ground for moving cocaine from South American north into the United States, a network most troubling for its numerous cargo flights to Honduras from Venezuela.

Noting Mr. Uribe over in Colombia, a man who has truly enjoyed spectacular success in the perennially troubled country, I can’t believe the American left is so quick to feed him the back of their hand while at the same time they warm to the likes of Chavez and Zelaya so openly.

I’d add that Mr. Uribe is a democratically elected president who is serving within the statues laid down by the Colombian Constitution. But I get the sense that should something happen to him, should he face a coup, this current White House would be excited by the prospects such an event would offer them. Don’t you?

Jun 30, 2009 - 9:43 pm

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