Jun Bautista at Philippine Commentary provides a glance at how the situation in Honduras may look from outside the Beltway. At the moment, many Filipinos are worried that the current President, Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, will amend the constitution in order to extend her term. It may not ring a bell in Washington, but the parallels are obvious in Manila. Bautista writes:
The parallels between the Philippines and Honduras are uncanny. As we all know very well [Gloria Macapagal Arroyo's] GMA’s allies in Congress have been assiduously pushing for charter change … Zelaya’s ouster was precipitated by his insistence on having a constitutional convention … Both moves are seen as attempts to extend the president’s term of office. GMA’s allies want to proceed with a con-ass [constitutional assembly] even without the Senate (clearly unconstitutional), while Zelaya wants a referendum on the convening of a con-con [constitutional convention] without congressional authorization as required by Honduras’s constitution. …
Going back to Honduras, it is disappointing to know that the international community – including the UN, Organization of American States, and the US – was quick to condemn the removal of Zelaya and announce its disapproval of the existing government, given the background of Zelaya and what prompted his removal. A review of what happened in Honduras shows that it was Zelaya who first committed constitutional shortcuts by disregarding the Honduran Congress in calling for a referendum to amend the constitution. The Honduran Supreme Court, backed by the attorney general, ruled that Zelaya’s call for a referendum was unconstitutional. Zelaya defied the Supreme Court ruling by firing the army chief who refused to support Zelaya’s self-initiated referendum. This prompted the military, in support of the Supreme Court’s ruling, to arrest Zelaya. As a result of this the Honduran Congress installed Roberto Micheletti, the constitutional successor to the president. …
Mr. Bautista’s piece might remind Washington that Third World Countries striving to become countries of “laws and not men” also have to struggle with problem of preserving their institutions even as they are tempted to take shortcuts to solve ’social justice’ problems. The idea that Zelaya ought to be supported by Washington because he is considered by some NGOs to be a “man of the people” may or may not have moral validity. But even if he were, restoring him in violation of Honduran laws also has a downside. Those who worked for years to restore the semblance of constitutional rule in a Third World after a dictator has torn them up know how that it is much easier to scramble an egg than to unscramble it. Once the laws of Honduras are circumvented with a wink and a nod the temptation to circumvent them again will be irresistible. Honduras and the Honduran constitution may not mean much beyond a narrow circle in Washington, but to the Hondurans, it is all they have.
There are probably a great many ambitious leaders in the Third World who are watching how Washington handles the Honduran crisis. It is all the more reason to act carefully and wisely.
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67 Comments
1. lc:And what do we do when it happens here (the US)?
Jul 5, 2009 - 5:00 am 2. Peter Boston:Since the late 1800s people have been moving to the metropolis, working in jobs that have no share or pride of ownership, scraping against alien cultures because of massive immigration, coping with crime and random violence and living with a constant apprehension of mass destruction from world wars, global pandemics, and economic collapse.
Progressivism and its Marxist cousins have been the dominant, and perhaps the only, political narratives that have directly addressed how society can survive modernity. Occasional references to Eighteenth Century virtues of small government are meaningless when they do not lead directly to a mechanism that addresses the big problems.
Big problems require big solutions. With no narrative to replace the solutions of a Guardian Class then it’s a Guardian Class we will get.
Obama has said that the Constitution is an obstacle to progress. Chavez, and I suspect also Zelaya, say the same thing. Guardians make their own rules. They know better.
Jul 5, 2009 - 5:06 am 3. lc:PB #2:
Good point – I think “big problems require big solutions” is part of the progressivist narrative and of course big solutions require greater coordination, organization and governmental control. The “classical liberal” outlook, that is, individual rights, rule of law (roolah law), private property, etc are thereby, ipso facto, outmoded and inadequate.
I think to consider them outmoded is, among other things, a loss of nerve. Lets not get wobbly (not that you are PB).
See “Road to Serfdom” – interesting read, written during a terrible clash of collectivst idealogies against everyone else.
Maybe its all just about acquiring and apportioning power…negative rights indeed.
Jul 5, 2009 - 6:00 am 4. Doug:“P.J. O’Rourke, 21st-century H.L. Mencken”
—
In this video, PJ discusses how the automobile enabled folks to address the need to escape the Metropolis with it’s failing schools, corrupt bureaucracies, crime, decline, degradation and etc.
Thus the politician’s love affair with Rail Transport/”mass transit”
Meanwhile, some university got a big grant to implement and study methods of taxing autos by miles traveled.
Jul 5, 2009 - 6:16 am 5. buddy larsen:…while coincidentally keeping track of citizen Smith’s every movement.
doug, that would be a very progressive tax. Of course, on the way home, it would become regressive.
Jul 5, 2009 - 6:32 am 6. MTL:Speaking of big solutions for big problems- Wretchard has recently started encouraging us to be more active in this site, and that we should buy Tolstoy if all we want is amazing content that stimulates us to think/challenges our view of humanity. I’m someone who has enjoyed reading this site religiously since it was on blogger (before it moved to its fallback spot) and can credit Wretchard for teaching me more about history and politics than all my classes in College which I had just finished when I got hooked on this site. But I have not commented or made any significant contribution to this site other than getting my wife hooked. In the spirit of Wretchard’s prompting, has anyone thought about ways to get together and talk in person about these ideas- I always seem to have tons to talk about with my wife after reading this site? Facebook has groups that can take people who have similar interests and connect them. Does pajamas media have anything similar, because I’m sure there are people who read this site in Wash DC where I live. Also, it would have to be a safe way to connect so that people wouldn’t feel intimidated like Leo Linbeck III.
Any thoughts?
Jul 5, 2009 - 6:44 am 7. Doug:What happened to Leo?
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:07 am 8. NullificationNow:Recalling that Chavez was on a plane leaving Venezuela for exile. W was consulted and told them to take him back and follow democratic procedure, alas one of W’s worst decisions. To bad the door didn’t mysteriously open and one passenger happened to fall out, keep it simple. Inaction seems to plague our system to the point of distraction, the current administration is making suicidal decisions and we wait for the “Democratic Process”.
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:10 am 9. MTL:I can’t find the BC post regarding this, but there was an article in the SF examiner about Linbeck as a right wing eccentric. http://www.examiner.com/x-356-SF-Education-Examiner~y2009m5d2-The-wit-and-wisdom-of-KIPPs-rightwing-businesstitan-angel
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:35 am 10. joe buzz:Welcome MTL we need folks like you and your wife around here.
Doug, were you not around for the we are all Houstonians now episode?
Chavez set a dangerous precedent with his power grab. It was only a mater of time before another dictator followed suit. I was not surprised when Obama spoke out against the blocking action (read law enforcement) in Honduras but was somewhat surprised when Hillary did.
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:47 am 11. Doug:Thanks.
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:48 am 12. Doug:He sounds like a real threat to humanity!
Yeah, I missed that, Buzz.
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:49 am 13. Doug:I’ll look it up.
Might have seen it but don’t remember Leo sounding intimidated.
Now I remember:
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:53 am 14. Leo Linbeck III:Leo, threat to the excellence of NEA Monopoly “Education”
Reports of my intimidation were premature.
L3
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:59 am 15. MTL:Glad to hear that the intended intimidation did not stick.
But has anyone actually met and had a beer to talk about this site? Or is that too weird to discuss an internet site in person? My wife and I were talking about how we get fired up talking about these topics, but we feel quite isolated at work or with our friends who are fun, but don’t talk about the constitutional crisis going on in Honduras.
Jul 5, 2009 - 8:12 am 16. Doug:Many of us have to wear sacks on our heads when we go out in public.
Jul 5, 2009 - 8:24 am 17. Leo Linbeck III:This is the only place we have to bare our inner selves.
MTL,
This is a great question. My guess is that it all comes down to time and space: too little time and too much distance. But I’d encourage you to try to organize something in DC, the belly of the beast. Seems to me that you could set up a Twitter account (BelmontClubInDC?), start sharing that account via email and blog postings in a bunch of DC-centric sites, asking people to spread the word, pick a date and location when you’re going to meet, tweet it, and see who shows up. Not much risk, not that much effort, and who knows where things might lead…
Just a thought. Cheers,
L3
Jul 5, 2009 - 8:26 am 18. Doug:(I’m just a foil to motivate people like Leo with real solutions to share them.)
Jul 5, 2009 - 8:33 am 19. PA Cat:MTL– There have been meetups for folks who read Ace of Spades. Been to two of ‘em. It can be done.
Jul 5, 2009 - 9:14 am 20. joe buzz:ltm, let me know if you set something up…I am just west a bit, not much for intelligent conversation but am for beer!pardon if this doest appear properly..trying from my b-berry.
Jul 5, 2009 - 9:35 am 21. SpeakEasy:Regarding Honduras and our administration’s apparent disregard for the processes of constitutional law, I think Barak has some ’splainin’ to do. We need to demand it- it will give some people a better notion of who this Oz character really is- and who the guy is behind the curtain.
Jul 5, 2009 - 10:12 am 22. Herb:I proposed a happy hour some time back. The reax was that it would likely either end in jail (too great a target) or a hospital (too much passion). In any event I expect it would be a great party.
Jul 5, 2009 - 10:23 am 23. Herb:Moe Lane runs a group blog called RedState. Its Republican grassroots with a national set of contributors. He’s set up a meet up in Atlanta for 31Jul/1Aug.
Jul 5, 2009 - 10:30 am 24. RWE:Link here
“There are probably a great many ambitious leaders in the Third World who are watching how Washington handles the Honduran crisis.”
There are a great many leaders in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd worlds watching to see how Americans handle the Obama’s Washington crisis, too.
And the Iranian crisis, the North Korean crisis, and the Honduran crisis result from these very observations. Get used to it. Bill Clinton had to start a Foreign Crisis of The Month Club to distract attention from his domestic failings. Obama has set up a way to manufacture them automatically without any direct action on his part. Get used to it.
Jul 5, 2009 - 11:11 am 25. Cannoneer No. 4:MTL, here are some links that may interest you:
DC Protest Warrior
Take your wife out on a date to Walter Reed AMC some Friday night.
I remember when wretchard was a Freeper. That’s how I found him.
Jul 5, 2009 - 11:29 am 26. Unsk:The examiner article on Leo was a complete hatchet job. It was just another leftwing radical’s attempt to stifle dissent and intimidate conservative thought.
Leo, I’m glad to see you stood up against it.
Jul 5, 2009 - 11:58 am 27. Morenuancedthanyou:Speaking of intimidation and how to deal with it, this blogger has a specific suggestion.
Jul 5, 2009 - 12:09 pm 28. Leo Linbeck III:OK, I figured I’d run an experiment to see if my suggestion to MTL @17 will work.
Here’s what I did:
1. Set up a Gmail account. Free, fast, and easy.
2. Set up a Twitter account using that Gmail account. The Twitter name is BCinHouston.
Anyone who is interested in a Houston get-together should sign up for Twitter (if you haven’t already) and follow BCinHouston. Once I get a sense of how many people might be interested, I’ll figure out a time and place to meet.
Pass the word, and let the experiment begin! I’ll report the results here at the BC in a few days.
L3
Jul 5, 2009 - 12:28 pm 29. mark_b:I’m looking at the AP photos showing Zelaya supporters protestors at:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090705/D998CS1O0.html
I just don’t see that many people. It looks like a Cindy Shehan event. The most I see is 250 or so causing a traffic jam.
Jul 5, 2009 - 12:37 pm 30. Leo Linbeck III:Oh, I just discovered that Twitter doesn’t update its index files regularly, so you can’t follow BCinHouston for another 24 hours or so. If you want to follow, check back tomorrow afternoon. Cheers,
L3
Jul 5, 2009 - 12:48 pm 31. MTL:Ok- I did it too and set up a twitter account- BCinDC
I’ll try and follow you L3 tomorrow.
Jul 5, 2009 - 1:15 pm 32. JFSanders:The supporters of Liberty and Freedom came together in Tegucigalpa. Much more than the puny crowd for the worm Zelaya. CNN quit lying!
Jul 5, 2009 - 2:14 pm 33. whiskey:Wretchard — you’re not getting it.
Obama, in violation of the US Constitution, wants to submit a unilateral US Nuclear Disarmament treaty by “executive order” because with 60 votes, he cannot get it through the Senate. He’s already talking about bypasssing the Constitution. He supports Arroyo and Zelaya because he wants the same thing.
And here’s the thing. Who wants unilateral nuclear disarmament? Why, WOMEN of course! Women in the West hate, hate hate anything military, particularly nukes. They want America disarmed and spending all the money it can on female employment in social welfare and administration. Any Western Democracy will have this as a feature of their politics — women hate the military because it is the principle power rival and because women are terrible military leaders, soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and the like. There are a few exceptions but you don’t see half of say, West Point’s graduating class being female, as opposed to the reality of more than 50% of Med School grads being women.
The proper reaction to Obama’s suggestion of violating the Constitution is the demand for impeachment hearings, coupled with demonstrations, boycott campaigns against people and companies close to him, digging up dirt on them, lawsuits against his cronies, pals, supporters, and officials, and full range of treatment given say, Trig Palin.
Obama supports Zelaya because he wants to be Marshal Petain too, ruling a female-oriented nation that eagerly wants to submit and surrender to any enemy that will be brutal and ruthless and destroy the hate Straight White Male. No male oriented politico, would ever dream of giving up nuclear weapons or military power, given how useful they are for threatening people. This is a huge confirmation of how female-oriented Obama is, as a Shaman/Rockstar not warrior, and how female-dominated the US civil and political society really is (NGO’s are run by women and gays, basically).
Jul 5, 2009 - 3:21 pm 34. Josh Manchester:Greetings fellow Belmont Club aficionados. MTL and Leo Linbeck — I once had a “meetup” in Houston to host frequent readers of my own [now unoperational] blog, The Adventures of Chester. About eight of us had dinner at a Chili’s. Was a good time. I believe another commenter here, El Jefe, was present. So I think your ideas are great ones.
Jul 5, 2009 - 3:36 pm 35. Josh Manchester:Speaking of which, if there are any readers in the Raleigh-Durham, NC area, I would be happy to get to know you.
Jul 5, 2009 - 3:37 pm 36. Doug:linearthinker said…
“…Regarding the demonstrations that occurred within Honduras yesterday, July 2nd, here is a list of numbers attended according to the July 3 issue of El Heraldo:
Number of Protesters for the New Government:
Tegucigalpa – 55,000
Choluteca – 25,000
San Pedro Sula – 50,000
Number of Protesters against the New Government:
Tegucigalpa – 3,000
El Heraldo continues by stating that the reoccurring themes within the rallies in favor of the new government were that the protesters were in favor of democracy, asked for peace within the country, and respect of the law. Also, downtown Tegucigalpa is now being plagued with graffiti against the new government.”
Hunter Smith
Jul 5, 2009 - 4:17 pm 37. Doug:linearthinker said…
“Our country is not for sale. Those that want to sell it are out.”
Honduras Abandoned.
Hunter Smith reports from Tegucigalpa.
Jul 5, 2009 - 4:42 pm 38. Doug:2164th said…
“The press calls Mr Zelaya, a rancher and timber magnate who lurched dramatically leftwards in power.
Let me translate for you:”
Mr. Zelaya’s family owned huge tracts of land in Honduras.
They stripped the land of timber, burned the remains, to raise grass and cattle.
After he made his pile, he decided populism a la Hugo Chavez would make him feel better.
Jul 5, 2009 - 4:45 pm 39. Doug:2164th said…
“As a “rancher” he did not exactly ranch.
He would not have been the marlboro man.
He would have paid some very tough men to herd the poorest of the poor, to live in 8 meter shacks with dirt floors and work their asses off, they technically being the real ranchers in the deal.
Mr. Zelaya, carbon producer extraordinaire, will be lining up to get carbon credits by planting melina seeds to later be converted into cheap wood chips for pulp. He is Obama’s choice to take a stand for democracy.”
Jul 5, 2009 - 4:48 pm 40. buddy larsen:2164th is savagely honest, and Hunter Smith is a very brave & enterprising young feller.
Jul 5, 2009 - 4:57 pm 41. Lifeofthemind:The Adventures of Chester is still in my Bookmarks. It is a small world.
Jul 5, 2009 - 5:04 pm 42. Doug:linearthinker said…
Hunter Smith…
July 5, 2009
Update # 3
Just rec’d text from Hunter – “Shots fired. Saw 2 different blood puddles. Heard 2 maybe 3 dead.”
Please note this is not confirmed. Again, this is not confirmed.
Please take with a grain of salt until I can confirm with Hunter via voice or email
Posted by Hunter Smith at 5:25 PM …
—
TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras -
Ousted President Manuel Zelaya appealed to the Honduran military to return its loyalty to him as he prepared to land in the capital Sunday, facing warrants for his arrest by security forces defending the airport against a crowd of thousands.
Speaking live from the Venezuelan plane carrying him back to Tegucigalpa, Zelaya said he was just minutes away from landing in his high-stakes attempt to return to power.
He asked that soldiers return their allegiance to him, “in the name of God, in the name of the people, and in the name of justice.”
But the politicians who ousted him aren’t backing down, and violence broke out among the huge crowd surrounding the airport, with at least one person killed so far. The man was shot in the head by gunfire from inside the airport as people tried to break through a security fence, according to an Associated Press photographer at the scene…
Jul 5, 2009 - 5:10 pm 43. krontekag:Hi Josh – great to see you surface again – I was a regular reader of the Adventures of Chester – really miss that blog
What are you doing these days?
…and on the meetup theme, any chance of setting something up in Sydney, Wretchard?
Jul 5, 2009 - 5:46 pm 44. Dave:Doug @38: Did you catch my ramblings on the prior Honduras article?
Zelaya is just the latest example of somebody who made/inherited a pile and lives in abject terror of a generalized posperity.
Thus it was he who attemted a coup. It was the parliament, courts and military that prevented said coup.
Our trouble, and that of Hondurans in general is not so much the usual suspects but all those who ASS U ME that because the military acted, it acted unlawfully. In truth, their actions were in accordance with assigned duties.
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:40 pm 45. JFSanders:Doug, Thanks for the link to Hunter’s blog. It led to some great reporting.
Hat tip to L. Douglas Garret. At Competing Hypotheses.
Reuters is running a faked picture with story about shooting by govt troops. Motorcycle pic is faked as well as the man holding rifle shells I believe.
Reuters Faked news
Viva Honduras! Viva Hunter Smith!
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:55 pm 46. Doug:Manipulation by the Media
I was texting and calling my father while at the protest today, and I gave him an update to post on the blog:
“He did see an older man in a white shirt reach down into the blood pool and cover his hands. He then wiped them on his shirt to make it look like his blood or that he had been involved. Hunter saw what he thought was an AP photographer take the man’s picture. Hunter said if you see it on the web, don’t believe it. It was faked. ”
L. Douglas Garret found the picture ran by Reuters and Legal Insurrection has already posted on this topic. The elderly gentleman reached down and wiped the blood on his shirt on his own accord, Reuters just happened to capitalize on his actions.
Posted by Hunter Smith at 9:04 PM .
That forewarning is available at Honduras Abandoned:
Posted by Hunter Smith at 5:52 PM
Jul 5, 2009 - 7:58 pm 47. Doug:Dave,
Jul 5, 2009 - 8:01 pm 48. Cowboy:They always think our military is wrong (unless they can take credit)
So they are just being consistent!
I see Ortega’s getting into the act as Nicaraguan troops are mobilizing on the Honduran border, according to some reports. Meanwhile Zelaya has been flying around over Honduras in a Venezuelan plane looking for a place to land, but the military has put vehicles on all the runways. Reuters has also published a staged photograph of a pro-Zelaya protester who has smeared himself in blood.
This is unreal.
** MTL, I live in the DC metro area, unfortunately, and have sent in a Twitter request to BCinDC.
Jul 5, 2009 - 9:39 pm 49. Robohobo:I too was a reader of the Adventures of Chester! One of the blogs that helped usher me to the Right, BTW. I was sad when it went dormant.
As for Honduras, we have to hope that the truth will out there. They are much on my mind.
Someone asked what would happen should the same happen here? I do not believe it would before The 0bamanation disarmed us. IN that disarmament. I do believe there would be a whole lotta trouble made.
Jul 5, 2009 - 9:46 pm 50. OldSalt:re: “remember when wretchard was a Freeper. That’s how I found him.”
That makes lots of sense. FR has been a great forum for conservative intellectual activism.
Off topic: Unfortunately, Jim Robinson personally “dis-invited” me from FR (read “banned”) after an interchange where I stated I would not support Schwarzenegger’s re-election as California Governor. I was involved early in the Davis recall effort, and supported Schwarzenegger for Governor based his commitments. After he failed to keep most of them, and hired Gray Davis’ staffers to run his office, I opposed Schwarzenegger’s reelection, and said so on FR. Robinson’s one sentence reply as he banned me was “..if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Good bye.”
That event kind of soured me on conservative activism in general. I had been somewhat involved, i.e. in the original School Choice campaign, pro-life, individual initiatives and political campaigns, and was at one point an elected delegate to the California GOP central committee (San Diego). However, I’m out of everything now.
When earnest Republicans (such as my cousin) get all excited and ask me to support McCain (which I did anyway; an absolute waste of $500), or this politician, or that cause, I have to smile patiently and tell them that they just don’t understand; it won’t make any difference. The GOP is the way it is (i.e. ineffective, failed, and sure losers) for a reason; the leadership wants it that way. The DC crowd is very comfortable in the minority. There’s a large amount of misdirection going on within the party. I’m almost hoping Palin strikes out with a new party along with other leaders such as Jindal, too. I don’t see any hope for the GOP as is, where most of the leadership and power has always been concentrated with senior House representatives and Senators, most all RINO’s. That’s the reason that there’s a left-ish majority on the USSC, during the same period in which GOP Presidents held the field, and even the Senate too at some points. The GOP left veto’s the right, every time any major issue comes up.
Anyway, this forum is one of the great alternatives to FR. Fortunately, the alternative media has expanded far past the point where FR is the only dog in the hunt.
Back on topic: Someone asked the question about “what happens when this happens to the USA?” This applies to the USA, R.P., Honduras, and every other Constitutional republic or democracy: There is no “law” unless it’s based upon an objective Constitution. The people agreed to surrender some freedoms for specifically defined (and limited!) governance, to compose a Constitution. Three branches of government (in the USA case) can successfully shred the Constitution and twist it into an instrument of tyranny, rather than liberty and justice under the law. Or, the same powers can uphold and sustain it.
We aren’t at a point of citizens revoking that lease, i.e. the Constitution is still viable as a curb upon government. Should a time come where one government branch provokes a crisis by taking extra-constitutional authority to maintain indefinite rule, then a “reset” to 1776 is inevitable. Whether it’s a states-rights crisis, or individuals take back liberty one denied-tax-check at a time, or out-and-out armed revolt, action (tyranny) will result in reaction (resistance).
Bottom line is: Honduras and (probably) the R.P are acting the same way we would when one group threatens the core liberty of all. The only difference is in the response, which is in part, culturally determined.
Jul 5, 2009 - 9:51 pm 51. Doug:Sarah should head a Federalist Party.
If pubs had supported McClintock both times, we’d be way ahead even if he won neither.
The Meltdown would be entirely on the Dems, and McClintock would look like a prophet now that we have 20 20 hindsite.
Hewitt has often supported the same type of losers the Republican Establishment has.
Jul 5, 2009 - 10:06 pm 52. buddy larsen:I was just thinking about him fighting for “Academic Freedom” in putting his far left buddy in as a college chancellor.
…as though the left will reciprocate anytime soon. Or ever.
Moderation is a sure course to failure.
There IS one thing to be said for ‘moderation’ –
1) The Dem party is iron-controlled by an ideological faction with it.
2) A large part of the party doesn’t share that ideology –it votes its pocketbook.
3) The right will either push non-ideological Democrats leftward, or pull them rightward.
4) “moderation”, if defined as that which works best to split the Democrats, is a legit election strategy.
It’s all in the meanings of the words, i realize. just saying, we have to try not to make it easy for the radical left/chicago mob coalition to lock down the Blue Dogs. The Blue Dogs are the ‘Silent Majorty’ and ‘Reagan Democrats’ who’ve swung several presidential elections already.
Anyhoo, that’s an argument for moderation. And naw, i don’t like it either. It was hard to type it out, matter of fact.
But, Sun Tzu: “attack the enemy at his weakest point”
OTOH, Alexander the Great: “attack the enemy at his strongest point”
Of course, the correlation of forces will influence which is which when.
Jul 5, 2009 - 11:09 pm 53. buddy larsen:Sun Tzu: “use a direct attack to engage; use an indirect attack to win.
Jul 5, 2009 - 11:38 pm 54. Doug:Alexander didn’t exactly set things up for peaceful succession!
Jul 6, 2009 - 1:41 am 55. Doug:Sure was hell on wheels while it lasted tho!
CODEPINK to the Rescue!
Hondurans Call Out for Help from the International Community
Our emergency international delegation to Honduras, organized from the United States by CODEPINK, Global Exchange and Non-Violence International, began its fact-finding mission in the wake of the June 28 coup that overthrew President Manuel Zelaya.
We started out with a briefing by the Network of Sustainable Development (Red de Desarrollo Sostenible) a 15-year-old organization devoted to the exchange of information about sustainable development. It has now become a center for exchanging information about the coup. Using blogspot, facebook, twitter, myspace, flickr and youtube, the Network’s network is abuzz with hour-by-hour accounts of political developments. Their communication system has become a critical way for Hondurans to get information, since the coup leaders have muzzled the press.
The Network has a history of being objective and staying above politics, but the staff is outraged by the coup. “This was just over the top,” said National Coordinator Raquel Isaura, who is being targeted by the right for some anti-coup internet messages posted under her name. “A military coup in this day and age must be condemned by all sectors of civil society.”
Like many Hondurans, Network Director Candalario Reyes Garcia is deeply worried about the future. “In the 80s we were terrorized by the death squads called Batallion 316. These same death squad leaders are still in the military today and if they take control of this country, we’re in for some truly dark days ahead.”
Jul 6, 2009 - 1:41 am 56. Wadeusaf:How can the government of the United States of America defend this guy Zelaya? There is no defensible stance. How can president Obama say so little about with a violent repression of peaceful demonstrations in Iran, yet not support the folks who have peacefully overthrown this power grabbing clown?
There is at last a history to what our president sees as virtue. Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Honduras, Cuba, hezbollahstan and Hamasastine. If he can’t blame it on Bush, look for a handy multinational to take the credit. Where is the press in asking tough questions? Where is the press in not accepting real answers?
Where is the presidents Record of Live Birth.
Jul 6, 2009 - 2:21 am 57. Doug:Wadeusaf:
We mustn’t meddle. (In the way of Tyrannies)
Except when we must. (Uppity Democracies)
YouTube – Honduran clashes turn deadly – 06 July 09
– ht Deuce
Jul 6, 2009 - 3:39 am 58. blogstrop:“Zelaya’s ouster was precipitated by his insistence on having a constitutional convention … Both moves are seen as attempts to extend the president’s term of office. GMA’s allies want to proceed with a con-ass [constitutional assembly] even without the Senate (clearly unconstitutional), while Zelaya wants a referendum on the convening of a con-con [constitutional convention] without congressional authorization as required by Honduras’s constitution.”
Jul 6, 2009 - 5:09 am 59. Lifeofthemind:This information must be too complicated for Australians to understand, as it has received scant if any mention in news stories here. Keeping the story simple is paramount, particularly if you seek to mislead, either by commission or omission. Sarcasm aside, the media is aided by Obama on the one hand condemning the supposed coup, and Ban-ki Moon who stands by this man. Those who want to bring him back might be urging a repeat of the Chavez story.
The Hondurans could have shot the plane down.
Jul 6, 2009 - 5:49 am 60. Triton'sPolarTiger:@50 Old Salt
I got banned over there also – it was 2001, I think – 2002 at the latest. No explanation, but I’m pretty sure it was my running into a sacred cow as well. I miss it still – I came over with a pile of folks who used to post regularly @ Lucianne.com… I have’t been to FR in years now.
Like the Twitter idea, and the meet-up thing, but it’s a long way to Houston from here.
Triton
Jul 6, 2009 - 9:58 am 61. buddy larsen:actually doug, A the G *was* “hell on wheels” –the Persians were sure their chariots would whup him in the final showdown –but he found the way to neutralize ‘em and then eat ‘em up. The hell he put to the wheels was the key to the final total victory over, and breakup of, the Empire built long before by Cyrus the Great. So Alexander was actually ‘the greater’ –tho that don’t roll off the tongue quite as zestily. maybe better to change ‘Cyrus the Great’ to ‘Cyrus the Great So Far’ –?
Jul 6, 2009 - 10:18 am 62. buddy larsen:Cyrus the Quasi Great
Jul 6, 2009 - 11:00 am 63. Dishman:Regarding CODEPINK….
It seems some people don’t believe in the rule of law.
Jul 6, 2009 - 11:59 am 64. Konyok:I grok Richard’s parallel to the Philippines and other struggling third world democracies.
This issue of re-election has much, much more significance in Latin America than in the US. At least by an order of magnitude.
The best example is the Mexican revolution of 1910. Porfirio Diaz, the long reigning strongman made the mistake of telling a journalist “of course” he would allow free elections in 1910. A naive son of the northern bourgeoisie, Francisco Madero, took the old man at face value. He wrote a book calling for a prohibition against re-election and started a presidential campaign. Once this campaign became credible it was subjected to the state repression and Madero was arrested. Diaz won breathtaking majorities and Madero escaped to Texas to proclaim the revolution.
(The purist Madero refused to take power after Diaz resigned – he waited an interminable 6 months, with a Diaz appointee as interim president, for another proper *by the book* presidential campaign and election to take office. He was overthrown by a military coup backed by the U.S. …)
The revolutionary condition lasted for 20 years, sometimes subsiding when a president was selected, but invariably re-emerging as each president in turn, (Carranza and Obregon), succumbed to the temptation to attempt to have themselves re-elected. Only the corrupt agreement in 1929 between the various revolutionary jefes ended the cycle of violence – each president would retain the right to nominate his successor.
Coups de etat against Latin American presidents attempting to be re-elected are a longstanding tradition and have generally been regarded as the best protection for a small republic to maintain independence against the United States and other powers. Apparently Chavez wants to take our place as the hemisphere’s premier imperialist …
Zemaya’s attempt to perpetuate his presidency is a clear threat to the principles of 20th century Latin American reformism. This is one conflict that the US ought to be very, very careful about meddling in. It might be useful to offer a neutral venue for arbitration, but, unfortunately, the administration has already taken a side in this profound Honduran constitutional crisis.
Jul 6, 2009 - 12:55 pm 65. Cannoneer No. 4:Where’s Lee Christmas’ 21st-Century counterpart?
Probably works for Xe.
Jul 6, 2009 - 3:11 pm 66. blert:Alexander was the absolute master of getting into his opponent’s head.
The Macedonian trick used against the chariot depended on understanding horse psychology.
He really screwed up marching through Baluchistan.
His temper was so bad that he murdered more than a few of his friends — regretting it after the fact.
Jul 6, 2009 - 3:49 pm 67. Doug:Bullet That Killed Honduran Leftist Protester Yesterday Was Not Fired By Military
The bullet that killed the young man yesterday at the Toncontin airport in Honduras was not fired from a military weapon. The military released a statement on the incident today.Hunter Smith just released this news from El Heraldo:
This is just a rough translation, as I am hurrying to make it available in English:
The Minister of Defense Adolfo Lionel Sevilla said this afternoon that the bullet that killed a young man at the demonstration Sunday in the Toncontín airport did not come from a military weapon.
According to the experts, the bullet that took the life of a young 19 year old, was not from a military caliber. The report reveals that the direction the young man died does not coincide with the trajectory of the direction of the bullet from the armed forces.
Ramón Custodio: army used rubber bullets
The National Commissioner of Human Rights, Ramón Custodio, said this Monday that the military did not cause the death of the young man that passed away yesterday during the disturbances that happened at the airport in Tegucigalpa.
“Whoever shot wanted this person to die”, said the Commissioner of Human Rights Ramón Custodio and adding that the military elements used rubber bullets to drive away protesters who caused destruction in the international airport.
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