106 Comments

1. Thrasymachus:

The inattentive voter saw things were bad, and voted for change. They now see things are worse. Anything Obama is going to get is going to be this year. It may already be too late. His timing was impeccable for getting elected, but for everything else it’s pretty poor.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:38 pm 2. Subotai Bahadur:

One does wonder if the head of Rasmussen’s polling unit is not overdue for a tragic accident. Or conversely, the MSM will start pushing the meme that Rasmussen is either unreliable or biased; or both. And that polling contracts will become few and far between. Strikes me as reasonable questions.

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:41 pm 3. aaron:

Were are we going and Why are we in this handbasket?

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:42 pm 4. novanglus:

He was so adept at voting “present” and doing nothing as a legislator, it’s a shame he chose to do otherwise once elected. Doing nothing would have been better.

Of course, he will continue to blame Bush through the end of the year. If things don’t improve, he will throw Congress under the bus and blame them for unfocused fiscal nymphomania.

The interesting thing is that support is falling on his left flank as well as from the middle, which was initially willing to give him a chance. I always believed that the winner of the 2008 election would end up as a loser – history was aligned against two men who were not the vessels of greatness required by circumstance.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:44 pm 5. Occam's Taser:

It won’t be pretty when the Hamster-in-chief falls below 50%. He and his posse have no Plan B, since his Oneness was supposed to carry everyone over the finish line. I expect they’ll run around doing “more of the same”, which will only horrify those inattentive voters. When things begin to collapse, they tend to go all at once. It won’t be pretty. Pelosi and Reid are jokes now. Just imagine what they’ll look like when their hair is on fire.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:48 pm 6. novanglus:

The size of his initiatives means that if he doesn’t succeed in putting them across, then they will round on him and bite. He’s staked too much to turn around now. So if his popularity continues to drop his attempts at Hope and Change may, paradoxically intensify.

And in doings so, he could leave his party in shambles, much the way W did to his. That is change I can believe in, the near simultaneous destruction of tweedle dum and tweedle dee.

Perhaps we could see two new parties spring up from their ashes. I would hope that they tended toward smaller government, but I fear one of them could be along the lines of Peikoff’s Ominous Parallels.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:49 pm 7. reg:

yeah he’ll double down.And keep on gambling as the odds get worse.like a much worse narcissist 60 odd yrs ago.we can’t change our essential nature.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:51 pm 8. Doug:

Something like 10% of the 700 Billion Stimulus has been spent.
(Sent to the states, so maybe not all spent yet.)
—
Thus:
We need another Stimulus!

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:52 pm 9. novanglus:

Occam/5: Just imagine what they’ll look like when their hair is on fire.

Maybe something like this?

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:52 pm 10. john lynch:

It would be very surprising if the President’s numbers weren’t falling. The economy is bad. If it improves, so will his numbers.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:55 pm 11. Andrew X:

One must always remember that politics is not linear, and that today’s trend is not necessarily tomorrow’s.

So, in a devil’s advocate sort of way, let’s assume Obama’s polls one year from now are much higher that today. So how did they get there?

Economic turnaround? Anyone here wanna place their bets on that, given current policies?

Media doubles down and gets twice as hagiographic as they have been, in a desperate attempt to save him, and themselves?

Could they pull that off if they tried? I don’t think so. That play is just about over.

Terrible foreign policy crisis or terrorist attack? (That put Bush at 90% approval.)

Be it Korea, Central America, Iran, or Terror, in what way has Obama NOT been buddying up to the very people who would be the cause of the crisis, and who would be directly threatening us (in all those hypothetical scenarios)? Were he to respond Bush-like, how would it NOT be an obvious repudiation of his entire world-view for the past 25 years?

Fankly, I cannot see how Mr. Obama reverses any of this. Unless the rules of economics turn on their head, a roaring economy is the only thing I can imagine in any of the above, and I just don’t expect that for a nano-second.

This leaves only a “black swan” to save his bacon, which, by definition, none of us can fathom or plan for.

And that ‘P’ word is the rub. Despite the socialist penchant for ‘five-year plans’ and all, does anyone get any sense of strategy from this guy at all, foreign or domestic? Or is it just dealing with events one at a time, using default leftist boilerplate?

The polls are rolling on down. I can’t imagine what is out there that is going to turn them around. Or that Obama or his people have any sort of strategic clue on how to get there at all.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:01 pm 12. Elroy Jetson:

Yes, I do think it’s a trend. Especially if you go back to April or March when Obama was in the plus column.
Our president is hell-bent on spending us into oblivion, ignoring the stock market and the unemployment rate, and and kow-towing to tyrants. That’s a receipe for a one term presidency.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:12 pm 13. wretchard:

Taleb thinks the financial system is broken. A private source has just told me that things are tough in Afghanistan. But …

What may save the US, what has been saving the US is that other countries are in very bad shape. Russia is in bad shape (http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2009/06/17/russia-may-be-hanging-out-with-the-wrong-crowd/). China is having troubles of its own. And the problems Europe and the Middle East are too well known to repeat here. Maybe if Obama were only slightly less destructive he could assure US dominance for the next 50 years simply by not messing stuff up. But I agree. He’ll double down.

Will his popularity be up in six months? Most of the people without a job and whose homes are underwater hope things get better, but what with Waxman Markey and more nonsense like it in the pipe the odds seem slim.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:16 pm 14. what is occupation:

obama needs to be filmed smoking in the Oval Office..

Then he needs to be impeached for violating federal smoking laws…

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:16 pm 15. Doug:

Maybe we could find a lesser cause that would not be so dispiriting to his Green Supporters, WIO.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:20 pm 16. Doug:

The Financial and Economic Argument for No Green Shoots:
No Deus Ex Machina for the Economy.
10 Charts Showing why There will be no Second Half Recovery in 2009.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:22 pm 17. wretchard:

There’s a hoary story about two persons from different, but notoriously stingy ethnic cultures who see a dime fall into the pool. Both dive for it. Neither emerges and their drowned bodies are found with their fingers tugging, in death, on the same dime.

The conservative/liberal dynamic may be the same. The only way Obama will let go of his “dime” is when things get bad enough of themselves to force his grip loose. With the media largely in his favor, it’s a question of waiting for him to destroy himself, either gradually or by some ill-advised move. In a way, its an exercise in resistance to pain. Will Obama implode before the last box of macaroni and cheese in the cupboard gives out?

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:28 pm 18. Doug:

“If you are looking for green shoots we can start having that conversation once we see some semblance of stability in the employment numbers. Keep in mind that housing is falling in spite of every imaginable bailout possible. Loan modifications, tax breaks, and other propaganda have done nothing in stopping the inevitable reversion to the mean. What it has done is wasted trillions in taxpayer money.

The second half recovery will not happen. These 10 charts above represent an extremely large part of our society and where Americans hold their wealth. The financial networks may have paid puppets to cheerlead for a second half recovery to keep their Wall Street masters happy but the vast majority of Americans see through their propaganda. Even if they don’t see through it, they are feeling it through the horrible employment conditions, declining home values, and shrinking stock portfolios. “

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:36 pm 19. mariner:

It’s probably too early to tell, but if it does represent a long term fall in President Obama’s popularity numbers, where will it lead?

We can only hope, and maybe it will lead to turnovers in both Congress and the White House.

If we have an election, that is.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:43 pm 20. reg:

#13 wretchard
I hope von bismarck was right about God protecting drunks, fools, children, and the Usa.that and the geographical advantages of north america may help our way of life survive.because our behaviour and judgement sure aren’t.
#17 wretchard
In a way, its an exercise in resistance to palin.

Okay send me to the punitentiary

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:45 pm 21. Occam's Taser:

Andrew X @11, Obama and his people learned all their “stategic clues” in Chicago backroom knife fights. When things are collapsing around them, backroom deals with our enemies will have as much impact as throwing lit matches at the proverbial iceberg.

I can think of not one single instance of Obama displaying a deft touch.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:50 pm 22. DW:

Re: John Lynch@10.

I agree, inasmuch as many (most, actually) in this country either are too busy, lazy, distracted or self-absorbed to really pay attention to the measures that this administration and Congress are taking, and how they will affect us. “It’s the Economy, Stupid!” holds just as true today as ever.

The Sotomayor nomination gave the president a strong bump in the polls, but that has since evaporated. Her confirmation probably won’t be as beneficial, although it should deliver a minor rise.

If employment statistics improve noticeably, even if it takes until this time next year, there’s a good chance that voters will support the status quo come November. The other shoe that may yet drop, though, is the rise of interest rates. That, combined with a stagnant economy well into next year, may very well unseat Pelosi and Reid – from the House and Senate leadership, at least.

It’s probably been posted here already, but I encourage all to read Roger Simon’s recent blog entry, “Storm Clouds on the Fourth of July,” especially the opening paragraphs. A snippet:

Obama is already over. In six short months the now-spattered bumper stickers with “Hope and Change” seem like pathetic remnants from the days of “23 Skidoo,” the echoes of “Yes, we can” more nauseating than ever in their cliché-ridden evasiveness. Although they may pretend otherwise, even Obama’s choir in the mainstream media seems to know he’s finished, their defenses of his wildly over-priced medical and cap-and-trade schemes perfunctory at best. Everyone knows we can’t afford them. His stimulus plan – if you could call it his, maybe it’s Geithner’s, maybe it’s someone else’s, maybe it’s not a plan at all – has produced absolutely nothing. In fact, I have met not one person of any ideology who evinces genuine confidence in it.

http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2009/07/03/storm-clouds-on-the-fourth-of-july/

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:54 pm 23. JWT:

Obamaspeak to the rescue:

“Negative is positive.”

“Suspicion Breeds Confidence.” – Brazil (the movie)

“Where there’s swill, there’s sway.”

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:58 pm 24. MarkJ:

Random thought: in 1914 the Hapsburgs, Hohenzollerns, and Romanovs all appeared to be firmly in control, reasonably popular, and set to rule indefinitely.

Four years later, they had all been swept from power…and not a few of them were filling unmarked graves.

Jul 8, 2009 - 7:58 pm 25. Subotai Bahadur:

#19 Mariner

Word.

Keep in mind that if he falls below 50% approval, there is always the Honduran gambit. With COI [the criminal conspiracy formerly known as ACORN] counting the votes; and a Supreme Court and Congress that does not have a measurable testosterone count compared to their Honduran equivalents, it is going to be “interesting”, in the sense understood by my ethnic fellows.

#24 MarkJ

Be still my beating heart.

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:15 pm 26. Uncle Jefe:

“Remain calm. All is well.”
“There are no American tanks in Baghdad.”

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:31 pm 27. Dave the Kapampangan:

If Obananarama goes down in flames, he can always reinvent himself as a Goth and get a job at GothScene, the #1 alternative dating scene and erstwhile google ads sponsor of the Belmont Club web site. Anyone else getting these kooky banner ads?

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:33 pm 28. Jim Nicholas:

Wretchard : “He’s staked too much to turn around now. So if his popularity continues to drop his attempts at Hope and Change may, paradoxically intensify.”

A common phenomenon among apocalyptic cults is that the fervor of both the leader and its adherents intensifies after a failure of the leader’s prediction–as if to give up the belief is to lose one’s sense of identity and purpose in being. Sometimes the failure of the prediction to occur is even attributed to the power of the prediction (or the preparation for its fulfillment) to prevent the fulfillment of that prediction.

I imagine the same phenomenon can happen among political true believers. When this happens, the ability to learn from failure has been lost.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:37 pm 29. PA Cat:

Anyone else getting these kooky banner ads?

I keep getting ads inviting me to be a restaurant critic. Maybe they’ll treat me to a meal at that place in New York that The Won favors for date nights.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:39 pm 30. rickl:

27. Dave the Kapampangan:

Yes, and it’s blocking part of the chart at the top of the page.

She’s not half bad looking, though.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:40 pm 31. Alexis:

If the poll numbers are correct (and they may be anomalous), they are ominous for Obama. It means that a patriotic moment such as July 4th may lead Americans to be less proud of having Obama as their president. One would normally expect a slightly warmer regard for the President after the 4th of July. After all, he is the President of the United States of America.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:40 pm 32. PA Cat:

One would normally expect a slightly warmer regard for the President after the 4th of July.

A number of folks noticed that he was more enthusiastic about his trip to Russia than about celebrating the Fourth.

Word Around The Net has two telling photos of Obama:

“In the first, he is watching and quiet, but not displaying any emotional attachment to the country being honored or reverence for the situation. In the second he is showing both with the hand over his heart in traditional salute to nationality and patriotism.

In the first, the US National Anthem was playing.

In the second, he is at the tomb of the unknown soldier… in Moscow, Russia.”

http://networdblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/discovered-fervor.html

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:51 pm 33. jaymaster:

From the lips of Abraham Lincoln, ironically enough….

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:59 pm 34. Lifeofthemind:

For what it is worth, which is what the audience is paying that is exactly nothing, Soros-Axelrod-Obama do know what they are doing. It is unlikely that they will cancel elections or or do anything else spectacular that would only serve to rally the resistance. My expectation is that they do not worry unduly about the sagging poll numbers but they do intend to win the next election. How to square this circle when it is likely that in 18 months we will be experiencing 15-20% in both unemployment and inflation? They intend to do it the Chicago way, they intend to buy it with your money.

The Democrats are going to have over half a trillion dollars in slush fund money ready to pump out for the 2010 election. Acorn and an army of hacks will push to hold onto Congress in 2010 and the census will be cooked to deliver the Congress in 2012. The declining economy will drain resources from the opposition. As a side benefit the carping left will discover a new discipline that Republicans could never threaten them with. Recalcitrant academics and think tanks will be defunded and media jobs will be increasingly under the control of Obama aligned conglomerates. Immigration reform will complete the picture for Obama’s reelection. While much of this will be technically illegal, in the general sense of corruption, it does not mean that they will resort to violence or attempt to repeal the 2nd Amendment before 2012.

As I said before people should stop assuming that Obama will make a mistake and do something overtly revolutionary. Expecting or hoping that he does so puts people in a passive or reactive mode. It is like those who still expect his birth certificate or college transcripts to magically appear and then somehow force someone to invalidate the election. Anyone who is thinking that way needs to have Cher slap them in the face and yell “Snap out of it.” Can we win this battle? Yes but it will take hard sustained work.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:12 pm 35. Unsk:

There was a poll out a few days ago, that I now can’t find, which showed 99% of Republicans believing that the economy was better last year and a strong majority of Democrats believing that the 2009 economy is better than last years.

It shows:

A.The media spin has been very powerful and effective on the dummycrats. ( Also that Democrats are really stupid, but we knew that.)

B. That Obama has a long way to fall once the sane Democrats figure out that the improving “green shoots’ economy is all a sham.

Yes, the Obama cultists may get even more rabid. But what will be really interesting is if the Cap N’ Tax vote or the Public Option Health Care Vote fails in the Senate, and Obama ’s grab for all encompassing Authoritarian power is denied. What will Obama do then? Will he unleash his ACORN thugs or do some really despicable act? Time will tell.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:12 pm 36. dymphna:

I saw that MINUS Five this morning and said, “be still my heart”.

In our Congressional district (#5 VA), our new Dem Congressman, Perriello, is voting the party line.

At the local Tea Party, there were new signs: “Perriello, U R Toast”.

The local daily paper, The Regress, didn’t cover the Tea Party, but the local paper, like all the other media, is on a slide to oblivion.

I may be eating beans and greens for the foreseeable future, but I plan to enjoy the show.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:16 pm 37. Marcus Aurelius:

Right now it makes sense for Obama & his gang in the senate & house to keep doubling down, after all they are all firmly in control. Now, if the job & economic situations don’t turn around soon they know they’ll probably lose seats in both houses next go-round of elections.

Biden’s confession on how the economy is worse than they thought (which is something I take his word for) shows they didn’t believe what they were saying prior the election and/or thought their magic fairy dust would turn the trick for them. Yeah, Biden & Obama were talking the great depression prior the election, heck, the economy could be growing at 25% annually and the press & Dems would screaming about hte imminent return of soup kitchens (provided it was a Republican in office).

What it simply means is they are hoping to steal as much from the house before the sleeping owners awake, and the survey indicates the owners are starting to awake.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:16 pm 38. Kinuachdrach:

Obama’s approval numbers were always destined to go down — just like every other President’s as the realities of life start to bite.

The issue is — what is the alternative?

Look at the situation in the UK, where Premier Gordon Brown was hailed as the Second Coming, is now throughly despised by his own former supporters, and yet is in no danger of rejection by the nomenklatura of his own party and may yet manage to outmanoeuver his directionless opposition.

That is Obama’s secret weapon — the utter incompetence & lack of principle in Congressional Republicans. No wonder Ms. Palin has to be destroyed.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:20 pm 39. Tcobb:

Obama’s popularity going down as a trend? Wretchard, is this a rhetorical question? Policies produce results, and results establish popularity. It can be skewed by the media to an extent, but people can only be induced to believe that black is white until the pain of doubleThink starts to burn their own personal hides. Pain inflicted on others can be eternally endured. Pain which is personal and biting tends to clarify the mind and modify behavior towards efforts to avoid and/or destroy that which causes the pain.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:21 pm 40. Subotai Bahadur:

#36 Dymphna

You are not alone in dealing with local papers. Our local rag is owned by a chain based in Texas [of all places]. They refused to cover the April 15 Tea Party because of a ruling from HQ that, “Protesting against taxes is rebellion against the government.”. The July 4 gathering was bigger, and featured our local Republican chairman [who is running for State Senate] risking the severe displeasure of the state and national parties for supporting the Tea Party]. Absolutely zero coverage. Mind you, despite the fact that the local paper was not there, it did not mean that there were not people on the periphery taking pictures of all of us. We are assuming ACORN or DHS.

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:29 pm 41. Tamquam:

Our Glendale/La Canada Tea Party got mildly favorable coverage on page 2 of the Los Angeles Times. I should have bought a lottery ticket.

I suspect that most of the bailout money is being held in reserve for the Summer of 2010 at which point it will be released with much fanfare and hoopla, just in time to convince people that things are finally turning around prior to the election. ACORN is not the only round in the magazine.

Jul 8, 2009 - 9:45 pm 42. Walt:

Some years ago Johnny Cash sang a song about the crick rising up around the cabin. The lyric went How high’s the water, mama? It’s five feet high and risin’. If you look at the chart as Johnny Cash would have looked at it, Obama is not falling, the water is rising.

How high’s the water, Obama
It’s five feet high and risin’
How wide’s the water, Obama
From here to the horizon
Whatcha gonna do, Obama
Make the water stop risin’
How you gonna do that, Obama
By something real surprisin’
Surprising how, Obama
By stopping all surmisin’
You mean them polls, Obama
Their meaning we disguisin’
Rasmussen truth, Obama
The man just feeding pizen
It don’t look good, Obama
Your panic I’m despisin’
How high’s the water, Obama
It’s six feet deep and risin’

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:07 pm 43. Gringo:

My take on the change in the Rasmussen poll numbers is that it reflects a definite change. The honeymoon was over by the middle of March, and from the middle of March to the middle of June, a span of three months, the difference between Strongly Approve and Strongly Disapprove averaged around +5. From June 17th to July 8th, a span of over three weeks, the average difference has been 0. The first time the daily difference between Strongly Approve and Strongly Disapprove hit 0 since January 20th was on June 8th. People are waking up.

But bear in mind that Dubya staggered through with negative 10 to negative 25 for quite some time. The difference is that Dubya is not a narcissist.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:12 pm 44. cjm:

the real unemployment number is closer to 20% than 10%. the herd is restless, noses twitching, ears erect. the msm is slowly turning on obama even now. it won’t be pretty once he starts lashing out, visibly unfit for office. the picadors are ready for the finale. i doubt he will even finish his first term.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:26 pm 45. Robohobo:

Andrew X @ 11: To your question of how do they get there? “Terrible foreign policy crisis or terrorist attack?”

See Cloward-Piven and think of Rahm Emmanuel not letting a crisis go to waste. I do believe The 0bamanation may try this one.

PA Cat @ 32: re: The two photos. I saw those. They do tell a story do they not.

Kinuachdrach @ 38: “That is Obama’s secret weapon — the utter incompetence & lack of principle in Congressional Republicans. No wonder Ms. Palin has to be destroyed.”

Precisely, if things remain as the status quo. I suggest something along the lines of this-

Palin and other decent conservatives as the head of:
“Throw The Bums Out In 2010 & 2012 – Reboot Congress”
Vote AGAINST the incumbent!
Rally to the new conservative, libertarian and classical liberal political party.
Call it “America First” or some such.

If we are to pull this off we must do something different. The professional political classes who are elitist to the core must be shuffled from the national stage. They have stolen too much for too long from the public coffers. The message must be around what the above three terms really mean. Conservative. Libertarian. Classical liberal. And term limits for Congress as a Constitutional Amendment. Also a Constitutional Amendment mandating a balanced budget.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:38 pm 46. JMH:

Very good Walt. The water is a risin, and Obama don’t know how to swim.

His performance in office has been terrible. His presidency has been a series of gaffs, mis-steps, questionable decisions and shocking over-reach. The swing voters (morons) who put him in office did not think they were voting for someone who would nationalize the car industry and jack the deficit through the roof (or floor, hey, maybe that’s where the water’s coming from). Even the vaguely leftist centrists who don’t pay much attention know that Hugo Chavez is a bad character and aren’t happy to see their shiny new President on the same side as that Banana Republic Thugocrat.

There’s a war brewing over public employees and their platinum-plated pensions. Regular folks have seen their own retirement savings obliterated and the unemployment rate in the private sector is skyrocketing. Meanwhile government employees are living plush, retiring early, and in general fleecing the rest of the country. While times were good, nobody much cared, but now it’s starting to dawn on people that the piss-ant clerk who caused so many problems with that building permit and the arrogant cop who wrote that revenue enhancement ticket are making more than engineers and doctors. Obama is seen (correctly) as squarely on the side of the public sector workers and their unions. Those are the people shaping up to be the bad guys in our economic drama. They’re going to be the robber barons of Depression 2.0, and Obama is going to be seen as their political hack.

He is absolutely toast. I don’t know if he’ll be replaced by someone better or someone worse, but he will be replaced.

He is The One.

Termer.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:39 pm 47. Professor Guvinoff:

A great many magicians have put a lot of time and effort on the problem of levitation, with little to show for it. Obama demonstrated a brilliant method, with striking virtuosity: Stay on the ground, actually cover a lot of ground, but arrange for saturation coverage of soaring rethoric (in technical terms, B.S. carpet bombing). By the way, empty rethoric is superior because it has a better chance to capture the anti-gravity waves, and watch your approval numbers float into the stratosphere. In the case of an ordinary levitation number, a polite audience will usually wait until the magician lands, smoothly or otherwise, before applauding.

In the case of magic-O, the applause came early and furious, and the reservoir of enthsiasm may well be empty by the time gravity finally wins, as it usually does. Remember, the principle of conservation of emptiness, (the first corrolary of the principle of conservation of substance), is inviolate!

If you want to be extra-mean about it, don’t say gravity wins, just say “Rush Limbaugh wins”, that will be good enough, thank you very much.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:41 pm 48. sgi:

The most recent Gallup poll confirms the trend. His approval rating is down to 61%, the lowest since January. His previous low was 62%.

The Rasmussen Presidential Poll is called a “passion” poll, like a love/hate index.

He’s losing love from mainly independents and Republicans, not much from Democrats.

Over the recent months I’ve noticed a pattern. About 30% of the country is solidly Democrat, 30% solidly Republican, but there are also at least 30% who are solidly independent.

There are a lot of disenfranchised people out there.

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:42 pm 49. someone:

“If employment statistics improve noticeably, even if it takes until this time next year, there’s a good chance that voters …”

We need to look at history. After Hoover was ousted and conditions worsened through the 30s, what happened?

Jul 8, 2009 - 10:54 pm 50. Papa Ray:

I remember posting before Obama was elected that he was a Con man and a Chicago Hood, backed by others that were even more dishonest and dangerous. I even said that I was afraid of him and his wife because they both were racists, and if he won they were going to make the white man pay dearly..

I’m very upset that everyone couldn’t see it. It was as plain as the nose on your face.

Polls don’t mean anything to those who have been fooled and don’t want to admit it and they might be easier to be fooled again. Plus no poll will be meaningful until it reaches a big negative…like fifty percent or more.

But even with polls like that, come election time The One will really get down and dirty and use every Chicago trick he knows and his backers know.

With one hand (or both) the money will start to flow to the right places and people. The money from other countries will flow in even faster than it did for him when he was elected. Then his thousands of vote getters will go to work, the votes that they can’t get they will replace with votes from where ever they can get them, including just making them up. They can get away with it too. The democrats have been working for years to take over the state and local governments, and they are doing a very good job of it. Look how the new clown made it to the Senate. It is a good example of what will happen in many states when Obama needs it.

Sorry got carried away. There are many other tricks and treats that he has planned to insure his election NO matter how unpopular he becomes.

We are going to have to pull some tricks out of our sleeves, work like hell and deny them every chance we can if we are to defeat him and the machine that he is the mouth piece for.

It is either that way or the bloody way and I’m not sure most Americans are going to be ready and willing to step up to that. I pray it never comes to that, but I know where I will be standing if it does.

Do you?

Papa Ray

Jul 8, 2009 - 11:27 pm 51. john lynch:

The secret Republican plan will come to fruition. Become so irrelevant that they can’t possibly be blamed for anything.

Jul 8, 2009 - 11:36 pm 52. Fletcher Christian:

To all those who think the empty suit is a one termer: You’re right. But only if the other side has a credible President/VP ticket next time. Sorry, but a geriatric zealot and an anti-choice wannabe theocrat won’t do. They might if both coasts were removed from the USA, perhaps.

Interesting times. I wonder how long the USA has. The Midwest and the South have nothing in common with the West Coast or the Northwest at all. Or at least that’s how it seems from the outside.

A fiscal conservative who publicly states that he believes the State has no right to control your personal life might have a chance. Unfortunately, I don’t know of such an animal; economic conservatism and membership of the Moral “Majority” (actually a minority) seem to go together for some reason.

There is a similarity between 1930s America (and present day Utah) and Saudi Arabia. Different words, different rules, same attitude. Republican politicians need to understand that most Americans don’t want a repeat of the 1930s in any respect.

Jul 9, 2009 - 12:10 am 53. Doug:

Mormons = Wahhabists.
Good to know.

Jul 9, 2009 - 12:20 am 54. buddy larsen:

papa Ray –can you even begin to imagine if the Franken affair had been just as is, only with the parties switched? The press would be on it 24/7; there would not be a breath of air left in the public square for months or until the “winner” had to do the right thing for the people and just step down. as is –(*crickets*)

That’s the right hand; here’s the left.

Jul 9, 2009 - 1:03 am 55. Fletcher Christian:

Sorry – in the last post “Northwest” should have read “Northeast”.

Mormons=Wahabists? No. Unresolved is the question of whether they would if Utah was independent.

The spirit of Nehemiah Scudder is alive and well in America.

Jul 9, 2009 - 1:14 am 56. buddy larsen:

So i’m reading this and that

which took me to here

and then to here

…and through the comments especially (see the public union employees claim credit for all that’s ever been good in the state economy –before the greedy private sector ruined everything), i got a picture of California, which as we know is always out in front, the trendsetter one might say, of the rest of the nation.

(*gasp*)

Jul 9, 2009 - 1:55 am 57. NC mountain girl:

Various state polls confirm Rasmussen. In both Ohio and Virginia, Barry has lost the independents at a very rapid rate and it’s not just the economy. The media sold him as a post racial and post partisan transfigurative politician who promised to change the ethical climate in Washington. He has governed from a hyper racial, hyper partisan, perspective and that change in ethics has been the transfer of Chicago style graft from Lake Michigan to the Potomac.

The Sotomayor nomination that took the left’s eyes off the detainee fiasco even turned into an ovberall negative for Barry. After Ricci came down, Rasmussen re-polled on Sotomayor and found she now has higher disapprovals than approvals among likely voters. The shift among independents was huge.

In his Our Chrysalis Stage the other day, VDH had this to say “We are being run now by film critics, not directors, book reviewers not writers, music columnists, not musicians. And it is far easier to fault than to birth, nuance rather than build. The irony is that the muscular classes carry the regulating and talking classes on their backs. They don’t mind being whipped occasionally and even bridled, but like any good mule will suddenly stop and no longer move when they feel the rider either does not know where he is going, or is going to kill the mule with his switch, spurs, and yanking on the bit.”

The mules have been braying theire lack of confidence for some time but neither the news media or the “I won” seem to want to hear.

Jul 9, 2009 - 2:01 am 58. buddy larsen:

here’s a comment from the Chicago Boyz site (the second of the four links in my comment above); if i had to title it, the title would be his phrase, “A Hundred Dead Cities”:

Paul Says:
July 8th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
You can drive from Newark, north up the Hudson, or up to Lewiston, Maine, and west across upper New York to Ohio, Indiana, Detroit. A hundred dead cities, really now just urban welfare camps and government workers and hooked up contractor bust out and asset striping zones.
Hundreds of years of capital investment gone. Once technical innovation centers the marvel of the world in any trade, industry, or science.
All Democrat. Each and everyone.
Massachusetts, New York, Michigan all states with more and more elderly, soon to die and be free of the tax man. Their most productive children fleeing the butcher’s bill for a fifty years of elite leftist theorizing coupled with thug union worker salaries, benefits and pensions many times the private sector, but with half, if any, productivity.
Actually the statistics are even worse as the educated young are replaced with the uneducated illegals, unfit for any but the most unproductive jobs.

Jul 9, 2009 - 2:03 am 59. wretchard:

AJ Strata has an interesting post persuasively arguing that many of the economic indicators are bad and that the “stimulus” has no chance — had no chance — of ever working; and that in fact bleeding the economy of funds for government spending was so much economic leechcraft. Some economists are now predicting that the bottom will occur next year. Personally I don’t think the economists are making more than educated guesses. Intuitively, I think there’s at least a 50% probability that things will get worse next year.

Why? Because many of “solutions” implemented by the administration are actually additional disasters. They’re not fixing anything, they’re just creating bigger holes in the hull of SS World. They’re ticking time bombs which will detonate just when the other problems are perhaps, sorting themselves out. It’s not entirely unreasonable to imagine we are headed for a lost decade, perhaps a lost decade and a half. I’m speculating — and speculation is all it is — that when the economy comes back it will be based on factors that we hardly recognize today. It isn’t going to be a continuous transformation, but a traumatic and discontinuous one. The old world is going to die, not from any revolutionary activity, but because it’s burning itself down. When it comes back, it will be on a field that has cleaned itself.

I raise this possibility because I feel that our political time scales are all wrong. Whoever becomes President in 2012 will still be faced with an insuperable problem. Even if President Obama and his Hope and Change crew resigned and went fishing tomorrow, it would only slow the rate of destruction, not stop it. The game over the next few years is to plant the foundations of long term recovery. The year 2012 is important not because things will get better in 2013 necessarily, but because of its impact on 2019. So the expectation must be that of facing a long, slow uphill climb, so that we can take advantage of advances in technology as they come, instead of hoping for a dramatic change in fortunes.

The problem is that there is very little public leadership for a multi-decade program of reform. Maybe things have to fall almost to the floor before radical (in the sense of back-to-the-fundamentals) leaders will take a fresh look at things beyond the regular election cycles. In the short term, I think we are going to see the increasing ineffectiveness of the “normal” institutions. The media, the political parties — are no longer going to work as before. This will lead to ever-more strained use before it is realized that something fundamental has changed and that the methods of the late 20th century have lost their traction. What will replace or fix them is presently unknown, but the defect has to be realized before people seriously put their hand to re-examining the problem from first principles.

Jul 9, 2009 - 2:31 am 60. buddy larsen:

There certainly are some head-scratchingly interesting shifts taking place almost daily.

For example, today Jim Cramer, who represents MSNBC (Obama team) and Goldman Sachs (also O team, JC is an ex-employee) but is also a sort of interpreter or diplomat in that his show persona –and results, importantly –is champion of the small investor, the small business, and the average joe n jane trying to get a leg up in the world, made two new personal positions –came out against the current economic program (”stim not working –try something new”) AND came out ‘for’ Gary Gensler (also G/Sachs ex and O’s head regulator) in Gensler’s proposed new ‘anti-speculation’ regulations, which Gensler will defend in a congressional hearing very soon.

Gensler is a prime author of the very practices he now wants to curtail, but that’s another (very big) story.

My point is to agree with your “…factors that we hardly recognize” intuition. The deck is getting reshuffled at an extremely abnormal, irregular pace –as today, per the above. The whole trope is, as one would expect, showing up in the numbers, with the latest 10 yr bond auction having the highest bid/cover in 15 years, and a yield falling dramatically –hard money/strong Dollar signs in the face of the soft money/weak Dollar tsunami –well, without getting off in the weeds too much, gold & commodities are yanking toward deflation hard over the last few weeks, even as the fiat Dollar creation in rampaging ahead at a volume and pace that would have been almost unbelievable only a few months ago. The stock market is price volatile but at hardly any volume –it’s running around half that of a year ago; a buyer’s strike.

The closest one word description is “frozen’ –we the great middle are frozen in place –waiting –while all around everything else is moving at warp speed. As you say, the synch is all out of whack –and must be portending entry into new territority.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:12 am 61. buddy larsen:

LotM/34; take a look –the prestigious Chicago Boyz site has printed your comment.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:25 am 62. Dave:

Hi Buddy, I am working nights now so am still up.

As far as deflation goes, Whackman-Malarkey
looks like Smoot-Hawley-Hall with attitude
to me. All the new money being printed just looks like it is fueling the causes of deflation.

Didja catrch the Nehemiah Scudder crack above?
The title of (wannabe) First Prophet could apply to either Al Gore or Obama. Semi-literate backwoods fundamentalists are in damned short supply these days. And to refer to Sarah Palin as an anti-choice theocrat is in the finest traditions of Ned Pakenham.

BTW: Do check out the new 6.8mm SP. Comes from chopping off a 30 or 32 Remington (rimless versions of 30-30 and 32 Special).
Gives you a very compact casing that will duplicate the ballistics of the venerable Winchester .270. Easily good out to 500 yards and adequate for anything up to and including mule deer.

PS: Texas CSA????????

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:27 am 63. buddy larsen:

http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/7937.html

LotM, take a look, CB have run your #34 atop a new post.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:27 am 64. no mo uro:

Doug said-

Something like 10% of the 700 Billion Stimulus has been spent.
(Sent to the states, so maybe not all spent yet.)

I don’t know if you’ve seen the stories, Doug, but it surely is being spent, to prop up the income stream security and COLA’s for public sector employees.

Hard to see how any of that will ’stimulate’ the economy, despite the commenters pointed out by the above links to SEIU ranters.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:38 am 65. buddy larsen:

Dave, heh –i WISH i was at work –i’d have an excuse to be still up at 5:30 a.m. Getting hard to rest these days, dammit. How long before we all ’splodes? CSA, i took a look at an informal thermometer i check every couple weeks –You Tube hits on Reb sites –and the chart is heading up hard & fast. The boys is gettin’ riled, Dave. You’d think it was 1875. okeedoke –sandman got me –will think about that cartridge and them Mormons (BTW on of Mitt’s sons is a principal in one of the ‘PPIP Nine’ [the toxic-asset market-maker program] announced today) here in the morning. Have experience with the .270 and it IS one flat-shootin’ s.o.b. nite –time to go take off the boots and jacket (*groan*).

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:41 am 66. Dave:

Yeah Buddy. I am holding eyelids open with toothpicks right now, so am signing off myself.

Remember, if you get an e-mail that says Sarah Palin Nude, do not open it. It might be a virus.

And if you get one that says Nancy Pelosi Nude, do not open it. It might really be nude photos of Nancy Pelosi.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:47 am 67. no mo uro:

OT

Dave-

Problem with 6.8mm anything (including the venerable .270) is the weird bullet size limits your choices as a handloader. Not too many styles or weights to choose in that, relative to 7mm and .30 cal.

The .270 is as popular a round as it is because of Jack O’Connor’s hagiography and its general availability in factory ammo. Ballistically it doesn’t measure up to any of its close competitors (think .280 Rem, which holds more powder and can take much heavier bullets). And the 6.8 mm SP is even less impressive than that.

And soon handloading might be the only way to get ammo, negating the factory load advantage, if you know what I mean.

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:50 am 68. juandos:

“As I said before people should stop assuming that Obama will make a mistake and do something overtly revolutionary“…

Well Manchurian Cretin who’s on yet another grovel ready tour has already done enough ‘overtly revolutionary‘ nonsense for those who understand this document…

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:53 am 69. buddy larsen:

haw haw, Dave –heard a job opened up in California the other day –guy was interviewing for it, and the interviewer asked him if he’d mind going to Tucson.

He asked “Is that where the job is?”

The interviewer answered, “No, that’s where the end of the line is.”

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:55 am 70. Mongoose:

Obama is a front man. Get rid of him and they will get another.

And yes they will try to buy the next election, and try to steal it ala Franken and whip the media into a frenzy like we have never seen. There may be blood in the streets. The Democrats are going for broke. They will have their Bolshevik state, and that is what they want, let us have no doubt about this. Right now they look to get it.

A replay of the GOP takeover in the Clinton years is unlikely. These people are not fools–they may be immoral and traitorous, but they are not fools. They certainly can figure out what happened during the Clinton years. They will not be caught unaware this time around.

This is a perfect example for the GOP to use to explain this whole mess to the electorate, but they have to call a spade a spade. They have to stop this “moderate” nonsense. They have to stop talking as if the policies are “misguided”. They must be prepared to call treason treason, Marxism Marxism and tyranny tyranny. I am not optimistic that the GOP can do this. They seem not to believe in much these days. I also am not optimistic that the American people have the maturity to see that they must wean themselves off of the state and get back to productive enterprise.

We are in real trouble. It may take broad disillusionment with the whoel system coupled with the belief that it is fixable.

But we must disabuse ourselves of the the notion that this is just about Obama or “who is in the White House”. The whole larcenous system need to be scrapped.

We will see what we are made of. America does surprise, so there is some hope.

Jul 9, 2009 - 5:08 am 71. mac:

Something you folks knocking Mormons might want to remember: those folks saw Jugears coming several miles away and wanted absolutely no part of him. In Clinton’s first election, he came in THIRD in Utah–and a bad third at that.

Utah is the most reliable Republican state in the Union, and is always either no. 1 or no 2 in the standings for best-run state government in America. Their government is that way because the people both understand what it takes to have good government and demand honesty and circumspect behavior from their politicians. Also, most Utahns have been well inoculated against Dem idiocy both by their religion and the stories from the huge numbers of Mormons who have fled California to come to Utah.

The Cal refugees have seen all the corrupt, giveaway liberal, religion-hating government they ever want to see and brought their thorough disgust with it when they came. They’ve made that knowledge widely known. Anyone in Utah trying to spout that liberal garbage outside the very small geographic confines of Salt Lake City proper (Utah’s answer to Austin, TX) won’t get the time of day.

As for being Wahabbis, all I can say is that there are one heck of a lot of pretty girls in Utah and they don’t seem to have any problem dressing in extremely appealing ways. I’d bet a considerable sum you’ll see the NHL playoffs broadcast live from Hell before you see Mormons support burkas.

One more thing: Mormons believe in being prepared and they act on that belief. If it comes to the kind of violence that some here have predicted, Utah will be the safest place in America. They’ll still have a working government, plenty of food, and plenty of guns and ammo to protect themselves when the lib parts of the country have collapsed into chaos and anarchy.

They’re damned good people to have on your side and anyone who regularly reads and comments on this blog who doesn’t think so needs to do some more research. We’re crazy to throw away such valuable allies through simple ignorance.

Jul 9, 2009 - 5:08 am 72. wretchard:

mac,

I’d bet a considerable sum you’ll see the NHL playoffs broadcast live from Hell before you see Mormons support burkas. That’s a darned picturesque turn of phrase you got there.

Jul 9, 2009 - 5:23 am 73. Mongoose:

Buy the NEXT election^

Jul 9, 2009 - 5:33 am 74. Lifeofthemind:

fletcher christian,
You know nothing about America. You know almost nothing about anything.

buddy larsen,
Thank you for pointing out the Chicago Boyz links. As a Chicago Boy myself it thrills me to see my comment reposted there.

Jul 9, 2009 - 6:27 am 75. Doug:

California in One Glance
“Big Spender” Grey Davis was recalled, and Arnold was sworn in on October 7, 2003.
– Buddy’s links condensed to one graph.

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:14 am 76. Norm:

Lots of excellent, well informed opinions and predictions. And thanks for the many informative links.

Me, I’m going with the radical side. All the way to Martial Law and suspending election(s) to get his way if necessary. He believes he is on a holy mission. If thwarted from his mission, and he does in fact go down in disgrace, he won’t care. He and his handlers may even be prepared for that eventuality.

Carrying that rationale even farther, he in fact may be the Useful Idiot for someone else’s agenda. We can make a few good guesses, there.

But all this speculation is becoming obsolete; we should be moving on to action now, and I think that is beginning to happen. That is, it doesn’t matter much anymore how we got here; we can leave that to historians. We need to mobilize somehow.

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:14 am 77. Doug:

“not entirely unreasonable to imagine we are headed for a lost decade, perhaps a lost decade and a half.”
—
Team Timmy somehow expected we could mimic Japan with a different result.
Magical Thinking worthy of the Best and Brightest. tm

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:27 am 78. cjm:

things will get bette once the political paralysis in the west is broken — one way or the other. traditionally war — either civil or external — does this.

a real visionary could have used the current financial crisis to remake the American economy by starting a crash program to move away from internal combustion engines. but old jugears is moving us back to a horse drawn/hay powered economy.

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:41 am 79. bigjimbo:

Buddy, Lotm, Mongoose, Dave , Walt,No Mo Ero, NC Mountain honey and the Chairman of the Board, Wretchard, this is my first comment ever. This site is fantastic. BTW where is Habu?

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:48 am 80. Fletcher Christian:

#73 – You’re entitled to your opinion of course. However, as a citizen (presumably) of a country that is supposed to be advanced and Western and a significant proportion of which rejects most of modern science, and is also the only country where the utterly obvious falsehood of televangelists is actually believed – the old saying about pots and kettles comes to mind.

Your TV standard is junk and the programmes are worse, your mobile phone system is appallingly bad, and your cars – well, these days even Americans won’t buy them.

Jul 9, 2009 - 8:47 am 81. Papa Ray:

This thread might be done but I wanted to post this:

Ohio.com – Akron police investigate teen mob attack on family

http://www.ohio.com/news/50172282.html

I’ve been watching the MSM for the last few months and this kind of thing is not reported often. But there have been more and more reports of incidents on blogs that show that Obama’s domestic “army” is in place and growing, both officially and unofficially (the street).

Racism is alive and well here in the U.S. but you might be surprised (or not) where it is mostly coming from.

If you think people like this care a whit about polls you would be right except in only one way. They would use those (negative poll results) to show that white America is made up of white racists that don’t want a Black man for their president.

And they will retaliate, but in even more brutal ways than in the link I posted.

Papa Ray
West Texas

Jul 9, 2009 - 8:54 am 82. Subotai Bahadur:

#66 no mo uro

Just a thought, but I tend to stick with NATO standard calibers used by the military. It guarantees availability through one means or another.

#70 mac

Agreed. Mormons get a bad rap, usually from other variants of Christian. I am not of that persuasion, but based on what I heard I was more that dubious the first time my family and I drove through Utah. I figured being Chinese would not be an advantage. Short form, we had to stop short of our planned destination for the night because of a mountain snowstorm. Literally everybody we met was polite, friendly, and extremely helpful in finding a place to stay. I have since interacted with many more of them; and I find them to be unfailingly good people. I agree with their position on preparedness, and I love their belief that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were directly inspired by G-d. I do not share their faith, but I admire the way that they live their lives.

#78 Big Jimbo

I believe Habu is taking a long vacation in a more rural environment, from what he said before he left. I would not be surprised if preparation of a fallback position for coming bad times was not involved. He is not the type who is taken by surprise by events. His comments are missed, and I wish him quick success and for him to return to add his insight to our discussions.

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 9, 2009 - 9:28 am 83. Papa Ray:

I’m sorry but I should have included this link with the previous post. I apoligise but I’m trying to do several things all at once and at my age it is difficult.

http://nicedoggie.net/index.php/archives/2160

a snippet:

Shreveport resident Robert Baillio, who got pulled over for having two pro-gun bumper stickers on the back of his truck — and had his gun confiscated.
While the officer who pulled him over says Baillio failed to use his turn signal, the only questions he had for Baillio concerned guns: Whether he had a gun, where the gun was, and if he was a member of the NRA. No requests for a driver’s license, proof of insurance, or vehicle registration — and no discussion of a turn signal.
Accordingly, Baillio told the officer the truth, which led the police officer to search his car without permission and confiscate his gun.

This is just one of those unreported events that are occurring more and more often. It has been covered by many blogs but you won’t find it anywhere (not even Fox).

Here is another link.

http://www.conservativedrink.com/media/GloverInterview-060809-Video.asp

The above link is with the Mayor of this fine southern local.

He thinks if your “potentially guilty” you can be treated anyway the police want to. You also can not carry any “weapons” because this mayor is the commander in chief of these police that have all this authority.

All in the interest of “Public Safety”. As you know that the Mayor will always look to make policy where it is the best for the public.

Papa Ray

Jul 9, 2009 - 10:21 am 84. Dave:

no mo uro: What is actually required is at least .338 calibers with 250 grains of bullet weight and 2800 fps.

Also: be sure to use Lyman Mold 428491 with 18.5 grains of 2400 in special and 21.5 grains in Magnum.

Elmer and Jack never did agree on anything.

Purpose of the 6.8 is not to compete with 280 Rem , 7mm Mag etc. It is to provide a package no (or only a little) more than the
.30 Carbine and .223 and still qualify as a “real rifle”.

I would like to see a Ruger Mini 14 chambered for it and utilizing an en bloc clip rather than a box magazine. Skip trying to have rifle and automatic rifle in one package.
Instead do a little more work on combining LMG with MMG. The A4/A6 would be a good starting point.

Jul 9, 2009 - 10:27 am 85. nathan zuckerman:

Simply put: badmouth all you want, but there is what as alternative? Going back to what we had (Bush)? McCain? Palin? Sanford? et al?

You are not going to win the independents simply by saying how bad Obama and his colleages are.

What do you offer that is positive, might work?

Jul 9, 2009 - 11:03 am 86. no mo uro:

Dave 82-

I’m not necessarily a fan of either Elmer or Jack. I will say Jack was a better writer, but a bit in love with himself, and Elmer was a sour old curmudgeon. I don’t hunt game larger than CXP2 all that often so I don’t own a caliber larger than .308 (I would consider owning a .35 Whelen).

The .270 (Jack’s claim to fame) is an OK to very good deer gun. If the .280 Rem had come out concurrently to it, the .270 would have become an obsolete caliber, because its performance is not as good as the .280, and besides, the 6.8 mm bullets are something of an oddity. Instead, the .270 came out decades before and was marketed very well, and therefore it has popularity which continues. Kinda like VHS beating out the superior Betamax format.

If ya like to shoot .270, enjoy.

If I hunted elk/moose exclusively, .338 Win Mag would be just the ticket. And a retainer paid to an orthopedic shoulder specialist.

For the needs you describe (in a Mini 14 or equivalent), I agree the 6.8 SP would be a good choice, better at close range than .223. And in a military venue the weird 6.8 mm size could be an advantage, the enemy couldn’t use it is any of their weapons.

If you like that sort of thing check out the .300 Whisper cartidge.

Subotai-

In good times, you’re absolutely right.

In times when ammo becomes scarce, those calibers are the first to get snapped up and are hard to come by. Try finding .308, .45, or .223 now, or brass or primers for them.

Jul 9, 2009 - 12:25 pm 87. buddy larsen:

agree 100% on admiration for Mormons as well as Utah, as well as Habu.

FC, if i may, your attitude has been precisely packaged for you by the MSM/state media. They have packaged that meal for you, and due to some sort of hunger, you have eaten it whole.

LotM; my pleasure.

Papa Ray, on July 24 the minimum wage hike goes into effect. That this seems insane given the rising levels of unemployment, especially urban teen unemployment which is in places exceeding 40% already, and that adding to the business cost of entry-level labor is certain to be causing a very large part of that unemployment already, well, no need to go into more detail, the vast pot of community-organizing cash in the stim bill that no one had time to read (hey, that’s a better excuse that having read it) is very much self-explanatory.

One can’t help but wonder how much of the huge rise in gun and ammo sales is due to red-staters after all –and also if at some point when everyone is armed that the left wants to be armed, that THAT is when –you know, after the cities are intifada-threat hostage –the big attack on the 2nd Amendment will launch.

Jul 9, 2009 - 12:48 pm 88. no mo uro:

Fletcher Christian #79-

Let’s take a more careful look at where on the political spectrum the ‘anti-science’ impetus originates, because, like so many others, you need to be disabused of the notion that it is the exclusive venue of the right.

Consider the following:

1. Most global AGW followers are left of center politically.

2. For all that they scream about the truth of evolution (and I heartily agree that evolution exists), the left is absolutely adamant in their refusal to consider the implications of evolution and natural selection in the areas of psychology and criminology.

3. Alternative medicine, populated almost exclusively by leftists.

4. Opposition to genemod crops, which is just a faster route to the hybridization humans have done for millenia, but is feared like inscrutable black magic by – again – leftists.

5. Anti-vaccination hysteria – again the exclusive province fo the left.

6. Being forced to use flourescent bulbs in order to ’save the planet’ – by the left.

7. Attacks on science curriculum as being “poisoned” by racism, sexism, homophobia, patriarchy, eurocentrism, etc., not only by leftists, but more specifically by those on the left who are supposedly the smartest and most educated – college professors (and not just in the U.S. but throughout the developed world).

8. No nukes? Left again.

9. PETA, ELF, Earthfirst, and the rest of the animal rights extremist crowd? Not the right.

Those are just the things I could come up with in a few minutes. No doubt there are others.

To say that the right or people of faith have some monopoly on being anti-science is ridiculous on its face. Most of the forays into antiscience by the right in the U.S. are from poorly funded individuals or small groups in the area of public education and are largely defensive in nature. Most of the anti-science from the left comes well funded (often by taxpayer subsidy) and are of an offensive and bullying nature. And in areas where there is an effective bully pulpit and means of spreading the information.

No comparison, really. I don’t like anti-science, whether it comes from the left or right. But to say that it is firmly in one corner just isn’t so.

Jul 9, 2009 - 12:54 pm 89. buddy larsen:

no mo, one could say that there exists an attack on human nature and the nature of humans, and nature itself, and that this attack is in fact anti-science (what is science after all but the study of nature?) and comes from the left.

Ole FC has certainly bought the pig in the poke. Blimey, tricked again by those bloody yanks (at the NYTimes)!

Jul 9, 2009 - 1:06 pm 90. Mongoose:

bigjimbo: Welcome on board. She’s a fine ship, isn’t she?

Jul 9, 2009 - 2:17 pm 91. buddy larsen:

Papa Ray/80; re your link, the cops are saying it’s not a ‘hate crime’ –one wonders, what IS a ‘hate crime’, then?

Jul 9, 2009 - 2:32 pm 92. Papa Ray:

I don’t know buddy, I guessing when it is against the authorities or people of color.

Times are a changing…

Buy more ammo.

Papa Ray
West Texas

Jul 9, 2009 - 3:24 pm 93. buddy larsen:

Ammo excellent advice, Papa Ray.

Remember the objection to the ‘hate crimes law’? That not only is crime already illegal, ‘political crime’ as a category is TOO.

Or, “was”.

Jul 9, 2009 - 4:14 pm 94. Subotai Bahadur:

#85 no mo uro

Actually, it works at both ends of the spectrum. Yes, it will be available in good times. But it can be available through other channels in really bad times. Why was the British STEN gun made in 9mm parabellum?

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 9, 2009 - 4:54 pm 95. Fletcher Christian:

#88 buddy larsen – The fact remains that there is only one Western country where anyone even listens to those that believe the following; that rather than believe the truth, unearthed by hundreds of years of hard work, of modern science (in particular an ancient Earth shaped by such things as erosion and plate tectonics) one should instead take as literal and unquestionable truth the drug-addled ramblings of various members of a tribe of Bronze Age nomads, poorly translated several times by people with an axe to grind.

The Origin of Species versus Genesis? No contest. Or at least, only in America is there a contest.

Genemod crops? Maybe. I’d like to see someone hybridise tomatoes and flounders by any natural means, however, for example.

Alternative medicine? Well, two points here. For most of history, up until about 1900, there was none of what is now called “conventional” medicine. I disapprove just as much as you do of the really weird stuff – such as crystal therapy, distance healing, diagnostics by dowsing, etc. However, herbal and nutritional therapies are an entirely different matter. And quackery is not confined to “alternative” practitioners either. I remember a case I was personally involved in; that of a workmate who was sent from GP back and forth to just about every sort of specialist under the sun over more than a year, with no results and at horrifying expense, only to be cured in the end by a simple nutritional therapy.

What therapy? Very simple. Vitamin C, and he had scurvy.

Jul 10, 2009 - 12:24 am 96. no mo uro:

I guess a response where you argue a couple of minor and unimportant points from my comment and ignore the rest is as close to getting an admission that the left is just as guilty of being anti-science as the right as we are going to get from your type.

Jul 10, 2009 - 3:05 am 97. Dave:

no mo uro: And you thought Elmer was a curmudgeon?

Jul 10, 2009 - 3:51 am 98. Fletcher Christian:

#95 no mo uro -

Response to the numbered post:

1: AGW. Dunno, but the proponents of it are at least attempting to justify their stuff scientifically. Bear in mind that essentially all we have to work with is models here. The experiment to confirm the models could have rather serious side effects.

2. I agree entirely.

3. Alternative medicine: Disagree. There are now in the USA more NDs than MDs. Why? Because it works as well or better with much less side effects – as long as one sticks to the sensible stuff such as nutrition and herbs, and probably osteopathy. Wild and wooly, yes the Left loves it.

4. Genemod crops are always inadequately tested and just about always made sterile after the first generation. Hybridisation, fine – but many of these crops use naturally impossible hybrids.

5. The MMR vaccine in particular has some unanswered questions around it. In addition, injecting young children with toxic heavy metals seems less than sensible.

6. Agree. However, when the price of LEDs comes down a bit more…

7. Agree.

8. Agree.

9. Agree.

I am nobody’s leftist – I voted UKIP last time in our elections, for example. However, the nonsense proposed by the fundamentalist section of the Right needs fighting. Fiscally conservative and morally libertarian – that’s me.

Jul 10, 2009 - 8:51 am 99. no mo uro:

96 Dave

Yeah, but I’m a lovable curmudgeon .

FC

There’s hope for you!

FWIW, I’m a scientist by training, and I’m irritated by science ignorance whenever I see it, regardless of its source.

Jul 10, 2009 - 6:01 pm 100. buddy larsen:

have it your way, FC –if you want to be an anti-religious hysteric, go right ahead, pray continue.

Jul 10, 2009 - 10:13 pm 101. Fletcher Christian:

buddy – Anti-religious, hell. Against theocracy, definitely.

What gives someone the right to tell me what to do, because of his or her choice of Sunday (or Saturday, or Friday) recreation? You don’t believe in drinking alcohol, don’t drink it. You don’t believe in working on Sunday, don’t work. You don’t believe in contraception, don’t use it.

But as long as I’m not harming you or yours, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL to tell me what to do – or what not to do. And you also have no right to fill your kids’ heads with mystical BS in lieu of real knowledge, hard-won by generations of workers.

“When the first knave met the first fool, then was born the first priest.”

Jul 11, 2009 - 1:52 am 102. buddy larsen:

I hear ya, FC. Loud & clear. I just have trouble with that Victorian blue-nose society that you insist we are living in over thisaway.

It just ain’t so.

Maybe it was when we were your colonies with the far different exigencies and thus reactive, defensive, norms –but lawsey mercy man –that was the 18th century. Nowadays, the bluenoses are in such a tiny minority (alas, actually, IMHO!) that your American vision is just wrong, that’s all.

And as far as me, i’m pretty secular –as are my kids and extended family for the most part –except for several RCs and one Jew, all of whose faith I envy.

However we lapsed Protestants do recognize that people who try to live spiritually healthy lives are the people who don’t seem to be suffering some sort of existential angst. IOW, lots of faith people make others feel good to be around them. And vice versa. Who argues with success?

Maybe the higher power is just brain chemistry –and maybe brain chemistry is just how the higher power works. But there is some sort of conscience and altruism, some sort of positive feedback loop, and to energize and feed that virtuous circle is almost always the only way to be one’s best self.

For headline example –if Steve McNair and Michael Jackson had been spiritually healthy, they’d be happy, rich, leading the young by example, and of course still alive. But they worshipped idols, and died.

The wages of sin is not metaphorical death, tho it is that too, but, in this day of STDs HIV, lethal urban violence, drug and sex addictions stemming from parents with the same pathologies and who usually broke the family to pieces as soon as the kids were born, that old canard from the good book means exactly what it says. Means, de minimus, that none of our problems are new, and to avoid misery, they need to be fixed the same way as always –by a committment to do right, and to lead an exemplary life.

Jul 11, 2009 - 6:05 am 103. mac:

“you also have no right to fill your kids’ heads with mystical BS in lieu of real knowledge, hard-won by generations of workers.”

FC, I’ll teach my children whatever I want. You don’t like it, too damned bad for you. You current lot of Brits are certainly no example to follow.

Your country is going down the tubes faster and faster. It was at its greatest and most productive when your people worshipped God and had decent morals. Now it worships football hooligans and lives for cheap booze and meaningless sex. You’ve got not the slightest justification for telling Americans how to do ANYTHING.

Anthony Daniels (Theodore Dalrymple’s real name) nailed you lot solid in his books. I lived in the UK for some considerable time and the longer I was there, the more I felt like I was aboard a rudderless ship washing up on the breakers of Clockwork Orange land.

Your country is all but lost to the Muslims and the socialists are bankrupting you. You know it, but you don’t have the balls to stand up and fight back against it. Instead, those of you who don’t emigrate sit in the corners of your locals and mutter into your pint. As long as you’ve got your pint, it’s “I’m all right, Jack,” even though you know damned well things aren’t “all right” and they’re getting worse by the moment. You’re back to where you were under Callaghan, except this time there’s no North Sea oil and no Margaret Thatcher to rescue you.

The men who held Lucknow, overcame 40:1 odds against the Zulus at Rorke’s Drift, and saw off the Germans in the Battle of Britain would have despised you current British. They wouldn’t deem you worth of the name–and they’d be right. “Londonistaners” is far more appropriate.

Nirad Chaudhuri was right when he said Britain wasn’t worthy of a Margaret Thatcher. You weren’t then and you’re an even more degenerate shower now. Watching the Royal Navy and Her Majesty’s Government grovelling to the contemptuous Iranians only clinched what those of us who had been watching your sorry decline from afar already knew.

Now go have some Victory Gin to forget it all.

Jul 11, 2009 - 6:58 am 104. Doug:

Well put, Gentlemen.
—
Fletch:
“1: AGW. Dunno, but the proponents of it are at least attempting to justify their stuff scientifically. Bear in mind that essentially all we have to work with is models here. The experiment to confirm the models could have rather serious side effects.”
—
You repeat this shibboleth endlessly, doggedly ignoring the clear historical record which puts the lie to Warming Hysteria.
Hopey and Climate Change, indeed.

(Rarely does the one sound more dense and ignorant than when he lists all the unconnected [frequently non-existent] eco-disasters which have befallen Gaia, and are supposedly connected to the great warming)
As do you.
Rising Sea Levels, Australian Fires, Melting Ice… ad nauseum.

Jul 11, 2009 - 3:24 pm 105. Fletcher Christian:

mac – Quite right. You have the perfect right, in America the Intolerant, to fill your kids’ heads with any sort of rubbish you want. Bear in mind, however, that if you choose to make them believe in the garbage that is called “creation science” then they will be forever excluded from any profession where the truth is important. No geology, molecular biology, genetics or even physics, for a start.

Your choice. Darwin, as he always does, will have the last laugh. Maybe they can become Republican politicians. Personally, I think playing the piano in a brothel would be more honest.

buddy – the 18th Amendment wasn’t that long ago. How much bluer can noses get? Yes, they are in a minority, and a very small one. The trouble is that they want to tell the majority what to do.

Jul 11, 2009 - 7:23 pm 106. Doug:

Darwin, possessed of some humility, knew that neither he, nor a thousand generations of scientists would ever be able to explain the mystery of creation, and said and wrote as much.
Modern “Darwinists” have no such wisdom.
—
…and I note you AGAIN ignore the well documented historical record, Fletch, which clearly puts the lie to predictable man caused Climate change.

Jul 11, 2009 - 10:47 pm

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