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	<title>Comments on: Time after time</title>
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	<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Fletcher Christian</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61710</link>
		<dc:creator>Fletcher Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;If we exterminate the women and children the men will certainly come after us.&quot;

Not if we exterminate the men as well, they won&#039;t. &quot;War does not decide who is right - only those who are left&quot;. Time to make sure that who is left are not Dark Ages barbarians, but us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we exterminate the women and children the men will certainly come after us.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not if we exterminate the men as well, they won&#8217;t. &#8220;War does not decide who is right &#8211; only those who are left&#8221;. Time to make sure that who is left are not Dark Ages barbarians, but us.</p>
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		<title>By: presbypoet</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61642</link>
		<dc:creator>presbypoet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 06:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am disappointed at the ignorance and defeatist attitude expressed by some of these posts.  Lack of roads is a major problem in Afghanistan. Trade is impossible. High value items like poppies are what can be grown. All you have to do is look at the Mary Jane grown in California&#039;s northwest territories.  Areas that are hard to get to make a fertile field for illegal crops. 

The history of this part of Asia shows it was part of the silk road, and a major trading center. It has people who are energetic, and could be partners in the region.  The bay area has a large Afghan immigrant population in the Fremont area, they have been an asset to the area, and show what Afghanistan might become, if peace can provided.

A homework project. Go to Google Earth. Look up Karachi. Go west on route N 25, along the shore of the Indian Ocean. Note an inlet a few score miles west. A port could be built there, and roads go north from there through much of Baluchistan to Afghanistan. The terrain is much easier that through the rugged mountains of Kyber Pass.  Now there isn&#039;t any good road access to Afghanistan, but it should not take much time to build good two lane roads to provide access. You can use Google Earth to go down to a thousand feet, and see how it would be possible.  This would provide  access to southern Afghanistan, through an area of fewer people, and avoid Karachi. The area while still hilly, is much more open terrain, less subject to interdiction.  It also could be the basis for future oil pipelines, by providing access during construction.  By providing work it would provide jobs for locals.

A second area I am appalled by the lack of knowledge is in the irrigation works of Afghanistan. The wars since the Mongol invasion have damaged what were very extensive irrigation works. Afghanistan has the potential to not only feed itself, but surrounding areas, if we only give them a chance.  

I figure the Afghan people did us a big favor by helping to defeat the Soviet Union. The least we can do is not abandon them again. Think Marshall Plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am disappointed at the ignorance and defeatist attitude expressed by some of these posts.  Lack of roads is a major problem in Afghanistan. Trade is impossible. High value items like poppies are what can be grown. All you have to do is look at the Mary Jane grown in California&#8217;s northwest territories.  Areas that are hard to get to make a fertile field for illegal crops. </p>
<p>The history of this part of Asia shows it was part of the silk road, and a major trading center. It has people who are energetic, and could be partners in the region.  The bay area has a large Afghan immigrant population in the Fremont area, they have been an asset to the area, and show what Afghanistan might become, if peace can provided.</p>
<p>A homework project. Go to Google Earth. Look up Karachi. Go west on route N 25, along the shore of the Indian Ocean. Note an inlet a few score miles west. A port could be built there, and roads go north from there through much of Baluchistan to Afghanistan. The terrain is much easier that through the rugged mountains of Kyber Pass.  Now there isn&#8217;t any good road access to Afghanistan, but it should not take much time to build good two lane roads to provide access. You can use Google Earth to go down to a thousand feet, and see how it would be possible.  This would provide  access to southern Afghanistan, through an area of fewer people, and avoid Karachi. The area while still hilly, is much more open terrain, less subject to interdiction.  It also could be the basis for future oil pipelines, by providing access during construction.  By providing work it would provide jobs for locals.</p>
<p>A second area I am appalled by the lack of knowledge is in the irrigation works of Afghanistan. The wars since the Mongol invasion have damaged what were very extensive irrigation works. Afghanistan has the potential to not only feed itself, but surrounding areas, if we only give them a chance.  </p>
<p>I figure the Afghan people did us a big favor by helping to defeat the Soviet Union. The least we can do is not abandon them again. Think Marshall Plan.</p>
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		<title>By: Wadeusaf</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61437</link>
		<dc:creator>Wadeusaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Blert,

Washington wasn&#039;t fighting in Afghanistan.
While some of it parallels fighting in Pakistan, from Afghanistan. It was still on the continent. That dictates a difference in tactics, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blert,</p>
<p>Washington wasn&#8217;t fighting in Afghanistan.<br />
While some of it parallels fighting in Pakistan, from Afghanistan. It was still on the continent. That dictates a difference in tactics, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: blert</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61435</link>
		<dc:creator>blert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61435</guid>
		<description>George Washington himself went after the tribes hammer and tong. He is the general that established American counter-tribal doctrine.

Washington went after the hostile tribes with total warfare. It worked. After his campaign no tribe long remained allied to the Crown.

If he had chased the actual perpetrators of frontier warfare none would have been found. Instead Washington went after the less mobile tribal members: the elderly, the women, the children.

Making their families pay for their heroics put the warriors out of business.

Collective guilt and retribution resonate in tribal logic. Our Geneva norms are at complete variance with tribal warrior logic and norms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George Washington himself went after the tribes hammer and tong. He is the general that established American counter-tribal doctrine.</p>
<p>Washington went after the hostile tribes with total warfare. It worked. After his campaign no tribe long remained allied to the Crown.</p>
<p>If he had chased the actual perpetrators of frontier warfare none would have been found. Instead Washington went after the less mobile tribal members: the elderly, the women, the children.</p>
<p>Making their families pay for their heroics put the warriors out of business.</p>
<p>Collective guilt and retribution resonate in tribal logic. Our Geneva norms are at complete variance with tribal warrior logic and norms.</p>
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		<title>By: Wadeusaf</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61430</link>
		<dc:creator>Wadeusaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61430</guid>
		<description>Dave the Kapampangan: @35

1) “Sherman’s March to the Sea” type Solution. Make war on society, not on individuals. Exterminate the women and children and the men will sue for peace.

Sherman did not exterminate, and the wink and nod to the scavengers and bummers were not for rape or for murder. Sherman&#039;s march to Atlanta was to prove he could. From Atlanta on the goal was to destroy not only the food basket of the southern armies to make it impossible for the south to support the fight. But further to destroy their will to fight. Starving themselves further was not an option. In Afghanistan the will to fight will flag in us long before the Afghani&#039;s gives up. 

 If we exterminate the women and children the men will certainly come after us. That is what we are trying to avoid.

 However if the supply lines fall apart, and if the Pakistani&#039;s fall to the warlords, then the option to forage off the land while fighting and marching out of that place is appropriate. Resupply of Ammo of course as best can be done. 

 My question in such an event, would be if we should march out via Islamabad or Tehran?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave the Kapampangan: @35</p>
<p>1) “Sherman’s March to the Sea” type Solution. Make war on society, not on individuals. Exterminate the women and children and the men will sue for peace.</p>
<p>Sherman did not exterminate, and the wink and nod to the scavengers and bummers were not for rape or for murder. Sherman&#8217;s march to Atlanta was to prove he could. From Atlanta on the goal was to destroy not only the food basket of the southern armies to make it impossible for the south to support the fight. But further to destroy their will to fight. Starving themselves further was not an option. In Afghanistan the will to fight will flag in us long before the Afghani&#8217;s gives up. </p>
<p> If we exterminate the women and children the men will certainly come after us. That is what we are trying to avoid.</p>
<p> However if the supply lines fall apart, and if the Pakistani&#8217;s fall to the warlords, then the option to forage off the land while fighting and marching out of that place is appropriate. Resupply of Ammo of course as best can be done. </p>
<p> My question in such an event, would be if we should march out via Islamabad or Tehran?</p>
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		<title>By: Wadeusaf</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61428</link>
		<dc:creator>Wadeusaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61428</guid>
		<description>Afghanistan was governed, by the Taliban so government in and of itself is not the answer. But what Rawlinson recognized was the fact of a stubborn individualism mixed in the social fabric of the tribes. That independent being is not going to be corralled and broken, but he can be liberated and allowed to compete in a marketplace. Today the market is drugs and arms and players want to corral the Afghani without being seen as doing so. But whether corralled or simply cornered the Afghani can decide for himself which is the better option long and short term. What will it take? Lots of Chai, and lots of patience and zero tolerance for BS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Afghanistan was governed, by the Taliban so government in and of itself is not the answer. But what Rawlinson recognized was the fact of a stubborn individualism mixed in the social fabric of the tribes. That independent being is not going to be corralled and broken, but he can be liberated and allowed to compete in a marketplace. Today the market is drugs and arms and players want to corral the Afghani without being seen as doing so. But whether corralled or simply cornered the Afghani can decide for himself which is the better option long and short term. What will it take? Lots of Chai, and lots of patience and zero tolerance for BS.</p>
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		<title>By: Cannoneer No. 4</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61426</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannoneer No. 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61426</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;The fundamental assumptions remain that an ungoverned or hostile Afghanistan is a threat to global security; that the West has the ability to address the threat and bring prosperity and security; that this is justified and a moral obligation; that economic development and order in Afghanistan will contribute to global stability; that these different objectives reinforce each other; and that there is no real alternative.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

-- &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n13/stew01_.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rory Stewart&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>The fundamental assumptions remain that an ungoverned or hostile Afghanistan is a threat to global security; that the West has the ability to address the threat and bring prosperity and security; that this is justified and a moral obligation; that economic development and order in Afghanistan will contribute to global stability; that these different objectives reinforce each other; and that there is no real alternative.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8211; <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n13/stew01_.html" rel="nofollow">Rory Stewart</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cannoneer No. 4</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61424</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannoneer No. 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61424</guid>
		<description>Tim Lynch predicts http://blog.freerangeinternational.com/?p=1778&quot;&gt;Heavy Weather&lt;/a&gt; in Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim Lynch predicts <a href="http://blog.freerangeinternational.com/?p=1778" rel="nofollow">http://blog.freerangeinternational.com/?p=1778</a>&#8220;&gt;Heavy Weather in Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61362</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61362</guid>
		<description>Gen. &lt;a href=&quot;http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/abdul_rashid_dostum/index.html?inline=nyt-per&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Abdul Rashid Dostum&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gen. <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/abdul_rashid_dostum/index.html?inline=nyt-per" rel="nofollow">Abdul Rashid Dostum</a></p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/07/09/time-after-time-2/comment-page-2/#comment-61361</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4972#comment-61361</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11afghan.html?hp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;U.S. Said to Have Averted Inquiry Into ’01 Afghan Killings&lt;/a&gt;
The mass killing of Taliban prisoners was carried out by the forces of an American-backed warlord during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11afghan.html?hp" rel="nofollow">U.S. Said to Have Averted Inquiry Into ’01 Afghan Killings</a><br />
The mass killing of Taliban prisoners was carried out by the forces of an American-backed warlord during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.</p>
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