156 Comments

1. whiskey:

The practical effect will be for Poland and the Czech Republic to nuke up as soon as possible as fast as possible.

The difference between today and 1938, is that nukes plus ballistic missiles are the great equalizer. Eastern Europe does not need us, to defend themselves, if they choose nukes.

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:09 pm 2. wretchard:

Eastern Europe does not need us, to defend themselves, if they choose nukes.

As I wrote elsewhere, universal armament, not a “world without nuclear weapons” is the most probable outcome of a world in which the sheriff model has failed. Of course that’s not the way it will be sold, but what followers buy into and what they actually get are often two different things.

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:13 pm 3. Walt:

Do not forsake me, oh my darling
She cried and sobbed please come back soon
But in DC with visage gnarling
Obama says it’s past high noon
We’ve got some fish to fry with others
The Russians and some others too
Now Puti-poot and I are brothers
And deals are made that don’t count you
The world has changed since last we saw you
Stand athwart the commie tide
And as the bear tried hard to paw you
You stood up for your country’s pride
But that was then and this is now, sis
Your days of freedom left are few
I’m sorry that I have to say this
I have to flush you down the loo

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:27 pm 4. ledger:

To uninformed observer it almost looks like the big 0 is helping Putin rebuild the old USSR.

Although very little was achieved by the big 0 while in Russia I wonder about the “over flight” rights to Afghanistan (now that Pakistan is no longer a trusted ally).

Although I am unclear, I assume Obama wants “over flight” rights from our bases in the Middle East over Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and possibly Georgia and other former Soviet satellite states.

If Moscow granted those “over flight” permissions wouldn’t that mean that Moscow retains control over those former states (or at least the big 0 thinks Moscow controls the airspace of those states)?

Is the big 0 recognizing the authority of Russia over said satellite states?

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:50 pm 5. sport29:

Has Obama ever met a dictator or a tyrant he didn’t admire?

Speaks volumes on what he himself would do if he ever gets the power–power that he and his cronies are working hard to acquire.

America, wake up!

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:51 pm 6. Lifeofthemind:

The more appropriate movie should be Blazing Saddles.
This is the revenge of the Enarchs and Old Europe on the Bush/Rumsfeld alliance with New Europe.

Jul 16, 2009 - 10:51 pm 7. dtmack:

The entire world is beginning to contemplate what things will be like once America relinquishes our role as the worlds policeman. Many who have spent decades railing about the American hegemon will soon see their wish come true, and more than a few are very nervous about it, now that it’s finally coming to pass.

I don’t think many in “Old Europe” will be any happier with the results than the people in Eastern Europe are at present. Eastern Europe is just closer to the front lines, and will be the first to suffer.

Jul 16, 2009 - 11:24 pm 8. 49erDweet:

“America’s Eastern European allies” just need to suck it up and figure out a way to survive in their pressure-cooker corner of the world. When “30 somethings” run the world there is no reliable corporate memory going back more than 15 years to times when Havel and Walesa were actually considered “allies”. Particularly Biden’s.

Now those Euros are just old white guys, and not to be trusted. Sorry. The best they can do is continue to Hope for Change.

Jul 16, 2009 - 11:34 pm 9. no mo uro:

The Hollywood imagery of the great equalizer was the six-gun. Supposedly everyone carried one (or two) on their hip, it was a very specific weapon in terms of who it damaged, and that made things equal.

But the reality is that a pistol is a weapon that requires great skill to use, was expensive to buy, required a lot of maintenance, and much practice time to acquire proficiency. Not everyone carried one, either.

In truth, the great equalizer of the old West was the double-barreled shotgun, a weapon that could be used by anyone, was easy to aim, was owned by prctically every family on the frontier, but unfortunately devastating in terms of collateral damage when used in a crowd. (Plus, the prospect of facing those two big barrels was so daunting that sometimes the weapon didn’t need to be fired at all, merely contemplated from the wrong end.)

Kinda like a nuke, on the level of nations. And don’t think that some nations haven’t figured this out.

Jul 17, 2009 - 2:58 am 10. Steve J. Nelson:

When was Georgia ever ours to sell? Or did we take ownership of it about the time the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline was finished and we sent hundreds of U.S. Marines to train their military? During the Cold War, if the Russians did that, we’d call it a client state. But we’re not supposed to use such terms even as “our sunuvabitch” Saakashvili shells a sleeping city and beats protesters in Tblisi (whether funded by Moscow or not) down.

I also don’t know what is democratic about shoving NATO membership down the throats of a Ukrainian majority that strongly opposes said policy and would elect Vladimir Putin if they could according to independent surveys of who is Ukraine’s most popular politician. Ditto for winking and nodding at Saako before he started the war in late July 2008 while having Hank Paulson in Moscow at the same time.

According to RosBusinessConsulting, Paulson was asking the Russians to hold on to their U.S. government backed (read: Fannie and Freddie) paper shortly before those institutions were taken over by our government. A lifelong Democrat apparatchiks like Franklin Raines could not believe that people in Moscow, Riyadh or Beijing could have had him and his entire staff fired by threatening to dump dollars, but I believe that is one of the great untold stories of the financial meltdown. That is the area where Vanity Fair, still cocktail partying with the Obamas, dared not look. Easier to blame the Republicans and say Fannie/Freddie was only a teeny part of the housing meltdown compared to the rest of the banks which went hog wild. The problem with that Paul Krugman line of reasoning is that once the government endorses something everyone does it.

Jul 17, 2009 - 3:04 am 11. buddy larsen:

The theme music for High Noon was written by Ukrainian-born Dmitri Tiompkin. It was Ike’s favorite tune.

Steve Nelson; you can find confirmations of your three staements all over the place, as well as their diametric oppositions. Your comment would be stronger if you alleded to that fact, and, also, if you skipped the flame lingo.

Jul 17, 2009 - 3:16 am 12. ledger:

“Has Obama ever met a dictator or a tyrant he didn’t admire?” –Sport29

Not one yet. In his time in office I have not seen one tyrant that he has seriously challenged.

Tyrants are good, from Castro to Chavez and Assad to Khomeini the big 0 likes them all (not mention Putin).

And, of course the big 0 thinks America sucks and the he must constantly apologize for that.

Jul 17, 2009 - 3:44 am 13. Hutsul:

# 10 -” a Ukrainian majority that strongly opposes said policy and would elect Vladimir Putin if they could”

Wrong!!! Most Ukies HATE Russia and everything it represents (except for the few eastern “Ukrainians” who are really Russians). Your forget the Orange Revolution! Get real. Every (free) eastern european despises mother russia and has for about a 1000 years – one look at Putin and you know why – it has always been so.

Jul 17, 2009 - 3:44 am 14. buddy larsen:

Hutsul is right according to actual real Ukrainians i happen to know. The pro-Russia faction is urban, mostly in Kiev, and speaks not the Ukrainian language but the Russian. They’re the “Blues”, as opposed to the “Oranges”. Also, to assert that Georgia attacked Russia shows a massive ignorance re the existence of the human brain. It would the like the Virgin Islands attacking the USA, or Monaco declaring war on NATO. The actual history –icluding the long Russian buildup, including the Russian interest in the Baku pipeline, is a matter of record. I find people like Nelson pretty much about as contemptable as an internet commenter (as opposed to, say, some actual person taking a dump in one’s actual kitchen sink) can be, on just about every available level.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:10 am 15. Steve J. Nelson:

Ok, then tell the Ukrainians to saw off their eastern Russian end. Oh wait, no we have to pledge to send American boys to fight and die to prevent said outcome. The doublethink with respect to what for too many Belmont Clubbers will always be the eternal Evil Empire never ceases to amaze me. The Georgians did start the war, Der Spiegel magazine reported it, only in Washington where Saako remains a protege of too many think tanks, lobbyists like Randy Scheunemann, and others do they deny what actually happened.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:22 am 16. vb:

Obama the Empathetic does not understand that 20 years is a very short time for countries who have to develop a new system of government and new ways of thinking. Eastern Europe wants to integrate itself into western organizations, including the EU, but there is a fear of losing their own identity and sacrificing the interests of their own people. The EU is very good at making regulations for Old Europe that can have devastating effects in the East. The tone from Old Europe can be very condescending (Polish plumber). I believe these countries have looked to the US as the country that would by recognizing their struggles for freedom help ameliorate the difficult transition they are making. They saw us as the country that took them seriously. We were a stabilizer even without direct intervention. I hate to sacrifice our credibility in a chess match with Russia. Even more, I hate to see very courageous people thrown under Obama’s bus. Obama is simply too uninformed to handle this situation with sensitivity. His emphasis is on producing a soundbite that makes him look good.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:26 am 17. jjmurphy:

dtmack – I think you are correct. Kind of like “Be careful what you wish for, you may get it”.

Obama has shown by his lifetime choices and his actions in the White House that he is as much a collectivist as any of the tyrants of the past. As many of the formerly enslaved nations of Eastern Europe go through their first tough economic times the USA should be a beacon they can look to to tough it out and stay on the course of capitalism. That is not the case with Obama as President, and perhaps some of those nations, without our encouragement and support, will revert to totalitarianism.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:47 am 18. Dave:

Buddy, when flame lingo is employed, it is usually the squawking of The Great American Chicken.

Said lingo is only employed against friendly sorts who mean us no harm. Murderous
S. O. B.s are referred to much more respectfully.

Or had you alredy noticed that yourself?

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:58 am 19. Dave:

PS: “The Georgians started the war”
along with “send American boys to die”
are phrases that usually emanate from somebody who (a) is in no danger (b) never has been, and (c) is incapable of facing same and therefore (d) promotes cowardice as the high moral ground.

‘Nuff said.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:08 am 20. Wadeusaf:

The last para of the linked article states

“A better argument would be that the region’s renewed success would be the best long-term hope for change in Russia. Few things would worry the Kremlin more than proof that political freedom, the rule of law and sensible foreign policy work well in nearby countries.

What kind of hope the authors have will depend largely on what kind of Change Obama really stands for. Without a reasonable defense they will not have the chance to succeed. Is that a sensible foreign policy? The bear is afraid, of losing control, and not thinking about what gains are to he had by ceding control and supporting the change in Eastern Europe.

Putin is for the status quo…circa 1968 with a tighter grip (strangulation) on economics.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:11 am 21. hdgreene:

The more the world turns, the more it comes back to the same place.

Just when I thought the world was becoming safe for President Obama’s Iran policy, I see Akbar Hashemi Rafsenjani (His Most Expedient and High Expertness) used his Friday sermon to kick up dust about last month’s election. A very public challenge to A-man and the powerful Mr. K, it seems. Will the Obama Administration have to wait before giving in? Or will they bomb the reformers?

It’s here: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/world/ap/48191662.html

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:24 am 22. E. Nigma:

Amen.

That’s what you say at the end of a prayer.

Amen. That’s how the letter in the NY Times from the “revolutionaries of 1989″ should have ended their letter.
Fat chance that the present administration will consider their cause. The arch cynicism of the Obama Administration is much more apparent in foreign policy than domestic policy, because the Media is still running their disinformation campaign with regards to domestic policy,

But the cynicism is the same. It is the beginning of the next phase of abasement of what has been called “American Values” to the ascendant ideology of the Transnational Elites. The individual and the nation mean nothing; the elites and their ability to mold the future mean everything. The Euro “Constitution” and way it is being force fed to the various peoples of the EU is clear evidence of that.
The United States will not get a new Constitution, but the Obama Administration will so re-shape the Supreme Court that the effect will be the same. Sotomayor is only the first of the new way.

So “Eastern Europe” will be sold down the river to allow Russia to be placated (temporarily) in the name of “peace in our time”. Of which there will be neither, especially to those souls in Eastern Europe.
Yes, I do hope they “nuke up”. Let’s see the Obama Administration squeal about that.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:29 am 23. Mark Razak:

# 5 and #12. Of course, O hasn’t meet a tyrant he hasn’t liked: they’re all reliably anti-American. There are very few, if any, pro-American thugs left to hate.

I remember reading circa 1980 a sarcastic remark about how “human rights” organizations went after almost exclusively pro-American dictators. The writer stated that at the rate in which pro-American dictators were disappearing soon we would live in a world without large scale human rights violations — except, of course, for those occuring in America (or Israel).
It seems that the writer’s words have come to pass.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:33 am 24. trangbang68:

Steven Nelsonovich, who exactly is proposing American boys dying to defend eastern Europe? Haven’t heard that anywhere. The real issue is Obama and sycophants like yourself selling out every free people or aspiring free people will only lead to bold and reckless moves by dictatorial regimes resulting in lots of boys dying in unnecessary wars. See Chamberlain, Neville for historical perspective.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:01 am 25. buddy larsen:

I don’t disagree with most of your sentiments, nelson. Just the sneering, ridiculing phraseology concerning a war that you know no more about than any other dilettante being fed bias –such as myself, i hasten to add. The difference is, i don’t present a personal attitude as an artifact of established history. And i believe you’re the only person here who’s talking about an evil empire. At any rate, if the RF will reconstitute the USSR, there’s little we’re gonna do to stop it. But we don’t have to pretend to like it, we don’t have to glorify Czar Putin –we can at least be noble enough to take our geopolitical realities like adults.

The thing to remember is that the NATO economies, down as they are at the moment, utterly dwarf Russia’s –and if USA doesn’t just fold up like a cheap suitcase, well, maybe government by non-assassins can hang on somewhere in the world so that if the worm ever wants to turnabout, it’ll have a place to turnabout toward.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:07 am 26. 49erDweet:

#10 and #15 is blaming the teensie-weensie victims for forcing the nice big guys to “do something” they didn’t want to do. Easy to assign fault when one picks things up in the middle of a narrative. There’s that short term “corporate memory” thingy again.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:09 am 27. buddy larsen:

49erDweet, right –”He hit me back first!”

So there it was, the Army of Georgia, sending its tank brigade, its squadron of fighter bombers, and its two or three combat regiments, off to take Moscow!

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:26 am 28. Joshua:

If Eastern Europeans think they have problems now, they ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

As we all know by now (or should, at any rate), both “Old Europe” and the former Soviet Union, particularly Russia itself, are in the midst of demographic free-fall, accompanied in both cases by the raw demographic ascendancy of Muslims and the political ascendancy of Islamic supremacism. Even if Eastern Europe manages to keep the current incarnation of the Russian bear at bay, in a generation or two it will, in all likelihood, find itself all but completely surrounded by hostile shari’a states, if not an incipient Euro-caliphate – with at least three of those states having at their disposal nuclear weapons inherited from their current regimes.

If this comes to pass, the USA won’t be in much of a position to come to Eastern Europe’s rescue even if we were so inclined – we’d be too preoccupied with our own protection. So, perhaps it’s just as well that Obama is leaving them on their own now, as that will effectively (however unwittingly) do for Eastern Europe what we never got around to doing for Western Europe: force them to take responsibility for their own protection. I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:31 am 29. Leo Linbeck III:

I’ve struggled over the past few weeks to figure something out about my 2-year-old. But I recently had a breakthrough.

As is well-known and documented, the “twos” are, um, terrible. The little tikes discover that they are autonomous individuals, and as such begin to assert the will. They still realize that the “big people” can tell them what to do, but they push to figure out their limits.

Over the past few weeks, our youngest (affectionately known as “Mr. B”) has begun exhibiting the following behavior: when asked by an adult to do something he does not want to do, he responded with a single word: “Why?”

“Mr. B, please don’t hit your sister!” – “Why?”
“Mr. B, stop giving your food to the dog!” – “Why?”
“Mr. B, it’s time to get in the tub.” – “Why?”
“Mr. B, don’t bring rocks inside!” – “Why?”

At first, I took this as a legitimate question, and would try to answer with a reasoned explanation. (Not an easy task, as his vocabulary is still rudimentary.) He would look at me intently while I developed a rational argument, when it was complete he would simply look into my eyes and say “Why?”

Yesterday, however, it dawned on me what was happening. He was watching his four older siblings and their interaction with me, and realized that when they were asked to do something they did not want to do, they would ask “Why?” (This is especially true of his 11-year-old sister.) So Mr. B was drawing the natural conclusion that when asked to do something one does not want to do, the proforma response is “Why?” For him, “Why?” means “No, I don’t want to.”

—

In reading through the linked letter, it occurred to me that the fundamental problem with US-EU relations is that the US is the adult and the EU is the 2-year-old asking “Why?” There has developed since 1989 this reflex of opposing US initiatives regardless of the long-term impact. The attitude of “Old Europe” is that they don’t want to be told what to do, and they’ve figured out that we will forgo (or at least forestall) action if they keep asking “Why?

At the core of this tactic lies a strategy of containment. The EU does not want a powerful and active US. The reasons vary: some pine for the day when Europe called the shots for the world, some hate the liberty-and-free-markets-based US model, some have figured out that taking pot shots at the US is electoral gold, some view a unipolar world as more dangerous than a multipolar one, and some are just idiots with no knowledge of or perspective on history.

Sadly, the writers of this letter make it clear that they are Europeans first, and Poles/Czechs/Slovaks/etc. second. In retrospect, it may be that this attitude – and the policy decisions that flowed from it – led to the biggest strategic blunder of the post-Cold War era: CEE countries throwing their lot in with the EU instead of opting for independence. It probably would have been better for these countries to form their own bloc, their own union, one based upon the lessons learned from their recent past experience with tyranny and the future promise of freedom. Their “betters” in Old Europe are too far removed from the threat of subjugation, and have grown complaisant under the US security umbrella.

The consequences of that blunder may become obvious in the near future. By casting their lot with the EU, the nations of “New Europe” and their “intellectuals and former policy makers” chose to re-affirm their historic geopolitical role: a buffer zone separating “Old Europe” and Russia. As such they are pawns in the Great Game.

Sadly, with the change in US administrations, the time for the CEE countries to assert their independence has passed. Even if they chose now to become more assertive, they have lost their support in Washington. Realpolitik has replaced support for the voices of liberty, and the old model of “spheres of influence” is back.

Now, it could be that Russia will learn to play nice if we give them what we want. But is life really going to be better with Frank Miller back? Is this really good for the average citizen of the town? Do they really want Will Kane to leave?

Why?

L3

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:31 am 30. buddy larsen:

Good question, L3. Clearly, the townsfolk decided, by silent acclamation, to take the position that all Frank Miller wanted was some sort of end to Will Kane, so that, if they would agree to see Will Kane as the problem, they could keep up an image of dignity without having to risk getting physically hurt.

“But what’s to keep Frank Miller from turning really bad on us, later?”

>>”Well it’s almost noon!”

“That’s not an answer!”

>>”Shut up!”

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:52 am 31. Dave the Kapampangan:

What if simple jealousy and laziness were the motivator for most international relations with the United States, as a response to American success?

1) Religious despots and entitlement junkies – “We were chosen by God for success and deserve prosperity by virtue of birth, but you Americans seem to grab it all; therefore, our lack of progress is not due to our own intolerant stone age values, but must be due to a vast white guy conspiracy. And by the way, keep the payments coming.”

2) High brow snobs – “You American hicks think you’re better than us, so let’s obstruct you at every turn. And by the way, keep defending us against aggressive countries.

3) Up and coming competitors – “We want to be the next United States in terms of power and prosperity. By the way, keep doing that R & D, because that means we can keep using reverse engineering and spying to gain your powers without having to fork out money for our own R & D.”

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:56 am 32. tomw:

29 LL-III: As I was reading the commentary, the thought came to me that the Eastern European states should form their own ‘NATO’ equivalent. They are local, they do have a bit of armament, and they have the will. It would give the bear a little hesitancy to attack one, if it was known beforehand that all of the rest would at least attempt to resist.
~~”We all hang together or for sure we will all hang separately.” -someone wise

The influx of the Russian speaking populace of those states was an attempt to coerce long-term loyalty to Mother Russia. Whether it will pay off or not is still to be decided.
I am not so sure that the time has passed nor the opportunity foreclosed for Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland and Georgia to form a self-help organization. None of them wish to be under the thumb of the bear again.
Perhaps I am whistling in the wind…
tom

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:08 am 33. anton:

Doesn’t the Ukraine have some of the old nukes left over from the USSR?

Lord only knows if they would work reliably, or if the launcher systems are functional, but thay would certainly have a head-start on the “nuking up” option if pressed too hard.

What would the world say/do if they (and the other old Com Bloc nations) began to play the Iran game of “peaceful nuclear development”? You know, to wean themselves off of foreign fossil fuels and reduce their carbon footprint.

Looks like we may be approaching the Three Conjectures from another angle.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:16 am 34. anton:

The problem with leaving the Eastern nations to twist in the wind is that it leaves them very few options other than going nuke. Nukes are cheaper to maintain than an army that could independently stop the Russians. The Russkies cannot afford to nuke you because they want you back, not burned up.

The bi-polar nature of the US/USSR conflict is what kept things under a tight lid during the Cold War. Both knew that to pull the trigger was to sentence modern civilzation (and probably all of humanity) to death.

Thankfully none of the leaders in power were completely crazy. That cannot be said for many of the leaders of second and third rate powers that have it within their grasp to build some sort of nuke.

The real destabilizing point comes when you know your nuke works and your very best enemy is getting close to making his go boom. Do you pull the trigger before he gets his bomb, hoping that he hasn’t managed to get a few functional weapons ready? What kind of threat do other powers pose? Will the UN do anything other that pass a Resolution and make poo-poo faces at you? Do you give a damn (especially if your Hidden Mahdi will show up in the mushroom cloud)?

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:29 am 35. Mel Williams:

Agree, Dave the Kap.

The older I get the more I come to the conclusion that simple envy is the driving force in this world. It’s never that I don’t have, it’s that I don’t have and you do.

One would think that a 2 year olds view of the world wouldn’t run the world, but I think it does. Proof that our training to civilize ourselves doesn’t eradicate anything we’re born with, but merely submerges it somewhat.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:29 am 36. Peter Boston:

The English language Eastern European newspapers are often brutally frank about current events. Russian military officials were clearly and publicly threatening Georgia for months before the invasion. All you had to do was believe what they were saying.

Ukraine is the key to blocking Russian ambitions towards the West. The Ukraine military is just about on par with Russia’s with the additional bonus of having a major seaport (leased to the Russinas). Ukraine has enjoyed very few years of relief from the Russian boot. Every Winter Putin turns off the gas for a few weeks to let the Ukrainians know how dependent they are.

It’s unlikely that Russia would confront Ukraine militarily but they don’t have to. There is a very large and very influential pro Russia contingent in Ukraine. It’s not impossible that they will one day gain control of the government and become yet again a willing vassal of Moscow.

Spiegel reported a recent poll that claims that a majority of former East Germans thought life was better under the Communists than it is in a unified Germany. That’s disturbing.

I suppose the future of the Eastern European democracies depends on how bad the global economy gets in the next few years.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:35 am 37. AWH:

For all of the things that people compained about with Bush, the work he did during the first Georgia/Russia confrontation was quite good. He pulled multiple levers (economic, military and political levers) and essentially got a stand-off that preserved Georgia. IMHO It was quite well done considering how bad things appeared at the beginning.

Unfortunately, it’s very unlikely that this effort can be repeated with our current administration. Once you’ve been exposed as spineless it’s hard to stop others from treating you that way in negotiations – not unless you’re willing to do something that escalates the situation out of proportion to the situation.

– Obama, i believe, has been labelled as “spineless” by all of our serious competitors and will be treated as such in all negotiations
– He is also not capable of taking an appropriate action to change that, although I worry about some random reactions because I really don’t know how stable he will be after suffering political defeats (which will happen. it happens to all presidents). He could end up being a dangerous, unstable character at that point.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:37 am 38. RWE:

Anton # 33:

“Doesn’t the Ukraine have some of the old nukes left over from the USSR?”

No, they don’t. There was an absolute mad scramble for the former Soviet republics to get rid of anything that even looked like an offensive capability, especially nuclear. One of them even had some Backfire bombers that Russia would not take back; they had the USAF come in and destroy them.

The Czechs found that the Soviets had cheated on the INF treaty and deployed theater nuclear missiles to replace those they had removed when we took the Tomahawks and Pershings out of europe under that agreement. the Russians removed the nukes but left the missiles, which the Czechs invited everyone in to see as proof of Russian concepts of integrity before they destroyed them.

But the Ukraine, Georgia, Poland, the Czech and Slovak republics, Hungary, have not only a realistic attitude toward Czar Putin but some significant technical capabilities. Ukraine even makes ballistic missiles and space boosters. All they really need is some leadership and assurance from the US that we are behind them. Think that will happen?

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:04 am 39. Doug:

“you’re on your own, bub.”
—
We want to empower you to make your own End of Life decisions.
We’d like you to consider Hospice Care.
In the meantime,
take a painkiller.

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:37 am 40. Doug:

Death is Eternal Life

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:38 am 41. Doug:

Weakness is Strength

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:38 am 42. Lifeofthemind:

A few threads back I speculated on when we would see the return of the chorus from the Lubyanka we had last year. Now as July is sliding down towards August it is beginning again. Remember it folks, the first shot of the Caucasus War of 2009 was fired in The Belmont Club.

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:39 am 43. VATeacher:

I wonder if Poland started developing a nuclear capability if the Russians would go to the U.S. and try to work a deal: “We’ll back you on Iran if you back us on Poland.” The current administration would probably regard that as a great deal….

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:43 am 44. Mark:

I heard a photojournalist recently talk about his documentary work in 1990 in Romania after the fall of Caesescu. He mainly documented the gulag orphanages and child-HIV devastation. At the funeral of a child in a peasant village, an old woman came up to him, took his hand, and kissed it. He was confused, because it wasn’t etiquette. She said, “I knew you would come back.” He asked, “Who would come back?” She said, “The Americans.” He learned that the Romanians never understood why the US sold out Eastern Europe to Russia at the end of WWII.

Obama has precedent on his side. He’s back to “geography is reality/balance of power.” Freedom for some, but not for the old woman.

If “Do Not Forsake Me” is the title song of “High Noon,” what is the title song and movie title of the Obama foreign policy?

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:49 am 45. Steve J. Nelson:

“Ukraine is the key to blocking Russian ambitions towards the West.” What if they don’t want to be your or anyone else’s key?

“The Ukraine military is just about on par with Russia’s with the additional bonus of having a major seaport (leased to the Russinas). Ukraine has enjoyed very few years of relief from the Russian boot. Every Winter Putin turns off the gas for a few weeks to let the Ukrainians know how dependent they are.” The same cheap gas that allowed the Ukrainian oligarchs that backed Timoshenko to sell cheap steel to the world — until nobody wanted the steel, but they’re still stuck with the gas bill.

I know, I know, Russia is always wrong. Saako wasn’t dreaming of bringing back the South Ossetians who seceded in 1992 and never wanted back into the borders Uncle Josef Stalin drew for them. He was a helpless victim of Russian aggression. Some victim, they had more troops and more advanced equipment than the Russian army, and they still got their butts kicked.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:02 am 46. dan:

Interesting: the shadow of Russia falls over the letter, but the authors rarely name them. I wonder, in the absence of crusading Marxism-Leninism, what the purpose of Russian expansion is, how it will be politically rationalized, and what form it will take. It is difficult to imagine Russia gobbling up Poland to start World Revolution in Germany, for example, or sending the Red Army into France to hook up with a coup d’etat there. Yet Moscow builds Iran’s reactors and transforms it into a colossal provocation, docks subs in the Syrian harbor it re-dredges, enables Chavez and North Korea, etc….

Presuming, according to the conventional mood, that Russia is not waging a total war intended to culminate in either a thermonuclear gamble or total subversion of the West from the inside – does Russia simply want to replace US “imperialism” with its own version? I’d like someone to explain mainstreamwise what their conventional goals, in light of known existing alliances and dynamics, are supposed to be.

For example – if you get Poland, what exactly is it that you have gotten? Or Estonia – just to be able to say “haha we got you back!” ?

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:14 am 47. Morowbie Jukes:

#13 Hutsol:

How right you are and it reminds me of a major faux pas I committed when I was living in Singapore.

I had met two young men at a bar who were Ukrainian and were engineers on a merchant ship. We were having a nice conversation and then I decided to speak a few words of Russian to them. Once I did, I was greeted with stone cold silence. They didn’t say anything and they didn’t have to.

It was shortly after that that I read the book “Special Tasks”, by Pavel Sudaplatev, a former KGB agent who barely survived the Stalinist purges and was also from the Ukraine. I was surprised to learn in the book, among other things, that the guerrilla war by the Ukrainians against the Russians wasn’t fully suppressed until 1950!

The Ukraine will fall into the Russian orbit again only by military conquest.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:18 am 48. dan:

Oh – I thought Belmonters might be interested in this article from a conservative (I think?) Australian political journal, Winter 1999 issue. Saddam’s relationship with Yevgeny Primakov, one of the few rulers of Russia:

http://www.nationalobserver.net/1999_winter_campbell.htm

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:18 am 49. Enscout:

“If their country stands for organised crime and economic collapse, that’s a hard sell”

er, who was he talking about? US or them?

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:33 am 50. reg:

the thing is ,if you cut loose a few of your allies, the rest will do the math.they’ll look out for themselves and go with the strong horse.Not everybody is foolish enough to hope for the last chopper out of saigon.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:10 am 51. reg:

and when that trust is gone, a change in administrations isn’t going to bring it back.Because they’ll see the next one 4 or 8 yrs around the corner.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:14 am 52. dan:

“We were having a nice conversation and then I decided to speak a few words of Russian to them.”

they probably were afraid that you were KGB. i have a friend fluent in russian and have seen the same reaction in 20 yr old waitresses working in USA vacation spots (Adirondaks, Nantucket, etc.) who were themselves russian. the first time he did it – some joke but russian was flawless – the girls’ faces were Stone. she says, suspiciously, “why you know how to speak russian?” we had no idea what was going on.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:15 am 53. Herb:

L3:

Just remember four is two squared.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:38 am 54. Hutsul:

# 47 MJ

For the first time in 1000 years Ukrainians have tasted freedom! They will not relinquish it – they are in a death match with mother russia. Think dioxin, think Yushchenko – and then you will understand what the outcome will be. Putin is a cold killer, Yushchenko is a freedom fighter. Obama will be the catalyst that starts the conflagration. It is amazing how we have repeated history with Obama as FDR and Putin as Stalin. The only difference is nukes and the slavic’s new taste of freedom – this will not end nicely and maybe Obama’s undoing – he is so out of his league here – it is obvious that Brzezinski is on-board for his jew-hating genes only – otherwise his moscow hatred would be seen.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:56 am 55. Triton'sPolarTiger:

@42 LotM

“A few threads back I speculated on when we would see the return of the chorus from the Lubyanka we had last year.”

I remember that… I look for the same…

Jul 17, 2009 - 12:32 pm 56. whiskey:

Not even Putin will sacrifice Moscow and St. Petersburg for Poland. Which is what the stakes will be as everyone as Wretchard points out nukes up like crazy.

Somewhat OT: I’ve read somewhere that Human Rights Watch is taking lots of money from the Saudis to go after the Israelis, as their usual donors are tapped out. Supposedly they sold the Saudis on large donations after a Protocols of the Elders of Zion dog and pony show.

Jul 17, 2009 - 12:34 pm 57. Subotai Bahadur:

The Eastern European countries have not been “forgotten” by the United States under the current regime. Most definitely not. They have been targeted, and as such are far from forgotten. They committed the ultimate sin in Obama’s eyes. They chose freedom over submission.

#46 Dan. Russia, even under the Communists, had all of the psychology of an empire, with Great Russians ruling the “lesser” peoples of the USSR [and aspiring to dominence over all of the Slavic "little brothers" just as in 1914], and the USSR seeking dominance over the world. That choice was made when Stalin defeated Trotsky. They are a hostile foreign power that means ill to all who would deny it pre-eminence.

#47. Morowbie Jukes

Did something similar. I have a few phrases of Russian [mostly military and political jargon], and I was told that I used to have a pretty good accent. Back when I was wearing a badge for the state, we were holding a Russian emigre who lived in New York City and fell afoul of our criminal code while travelling. He was making the traditional phone call home and I heard him speaking Russian, with an accent. When he was done, I mentioned that I had noticed an accent, and asked if he was Ukrainian [pure guess]. He was. He was really spooked because he assumed that I was a Russian linguist. Or employed by the Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

#44 Mark

I believe the song you are looking for is;

“Another One Bites the Dust!”

It will be played repeatedly.

Subotai Bahadur

Jul 17, 2009 - 12:42 pm 58. Marty:

If east Europe tries to develop nukes you will see the rest of the world, with the US in the lead, come together against that “threat.”

Like never happened with NoKo and Iran.

The US’s public rationale will be some bunk about how we have to beconsistent in opposing proliferation regardless of who the proliferators are–but since China and Russ will be with us on E. Europe, this will be effective.

the ACTUAL rationale will be that Obama likes the idea of strong stable thugocracies he can kid himself are open to negotiations—lots of smallish independent sattes pulling in different directions as they express their democratic natures is something he doesn’t get, and in fact, loathes. He has no problem whatsoever with a re-vivifieed USSR plus Comecon. Even a renewed Warsaw Pact wouldn’t bother him all that much, except it would lead to people wanting the US to rearm reight after he disarmed us, and that would make further nationalizations more difficult in terms of the federal budget.

Same as his view of domestic US politics–far better one large semi-despotic govt in control than the messiness of real federalism.

He and Putin really are kindred spirits–they want it nice and neat and orderly, as viewed from the top or the center.

Jul 17, 2009 - 12:43 pm 59. dan:

Subothai – yes, but there must be some purpose other than a sentimental Great Russian desire to dominate its neighbors. For example, I doubt the Russians believe that the USA is genuinely trying to encroach on its true sovereign territory. So what is the point of pursuing this limited re-implementation of Empire? The Soviet Bloc was a compromise accepted when Stalin recognized he could not fight and win the rest of Europe – besides, it was already too late: France & etc. had already been liberated.

The next decades’ aggression was the natural result of trying to (1) knock out Europe’s imperial possessions, which was accopmlished by the mid 1970s at the latest, (2) to ensure Europe’s emasculation, (3) to isolate the USA, and (4) finally defeat us. Now thats a reasonable strategy. The present one, if conventional accounts are correct, seem completely incohate to me. And that is not actually consistent with the Russian character at the top of the pyramid, so I’d like to know what gives.

Jul 17, 2009 - 1:16 pm 60. Mongoose:

nelson: If Der Spiegel is a compromised news source. You might as well use The Guardian. Also, personal attacks are not respected as valid argumentation here: we are adults here.

Jul 17, 2009 - 1:20 pm 61. Mongoose:

It is the purest of fantasies to imagine that Europe in its whole or its parts can face Russia without the USA, at least not in the world that we currently live in or one we should want to live in.

To face off Russia, Germany would have to go nuclear, and here the complications are so complex and profound that the notion is difficult to even contemplate. We can talk about the EU “pulling their” weight, but in fact they cannot pull the sort of weight required to keep the Bear at bay, particularly if that bear is united with the Dragon and the Jihadi. The threats are global and so are the opportunities for blackmail, mischief and danger, particularly now that China emerges as a power. It requires a global response. Only the USA can provide the leadership to face what must come.It is crucial that the USA maintains its historical post war role, and most particularly in Europe.

This does not mean that Europe must not be moved from their inertia and entropy, but it will take some sort of minor calamity to push them forward. Should that calamity come and America is no longer the beacon of liberty and leadership, then this will push them further into weakness and darkness. This well might finish off our civilization. We have a moral obligation to protect our civilization in this dangerous moment. Disaster will surely follow if we shirk it. Our civilization is at a point of existential dange–perhaps this is the most fragile momnet in 600 years–and we must face this.

Obama and his project–his very treason to our civilization–must be rejected for the profound evil that it is. We must return to our true nature and character. It is absurd to imagine in this day and age and after all that has happend the last one hundred years that America can descend into a second rate, socialist nation and hope to survive, let alone prosper. It is callow to desire it;it is dishonorable to turn from the challenge.

The EU as a pan-European government shows hopeful signs of collapsing–its decline lately marked by such things as the last EU election and the the German high court ruling declaring a EU Military force to be unconstitutional–perhaps soon enough we will be free of Obama.

Patriots in the DoD, State and Intel communities should take it upon themselves to hamper Obama’s agenda and inform the E. Europeans that in fact we have not thrown off our historic duties.

Obama means to destroy all that we have been and anything noble that we could be. It is not that he is merely an arrogant and woolypheaded Ivy League, leftist elitist. He is a Marxist-Leninist. He would hand E.Europe back to Russia and rebuild the USSR even if the Russians want no such thing to occur. We have clutched viper to our breasts. It is time to fling in to the ground and be done with it. This yet may happen.

Jul 17, 2009 - 2:12 pm 62. OldSalt:

re: Ukraine, Georgia, Poland, the Czech and Slovak republics, Hungary, have not only a realistic attitude toward Czar Putin but some significant technical capabilities. Ukraine even makes ballistic missiles and space boosters. All they really need is some leadership and assurance from the US that we are behind them ..and other references to Eastern Europe acquiring WMD

I’m in basic agreement, but the logic here gets tricky. For example:

Would Putin have invaded Georgia if the Georgians had nuc’s (or effective Bio/Chem alternatives) and an effective means of delivery? I think he would have.
Would the Georgians have launched missiles (or used alternative delivery systems) on Moscow as Moscow’s thugs were bearing down upon T’bilisi? I don’t think so.

Here’s why. What has happened since Georgia folded upon the advance of Russian troops? What kind of post-invasion resistance has there been? Have the Russians been dying at 20 a day via IED? Georgia is not making Russia pay much of a price, as far as I have heard.

Eastern Europe lived under Russia’s fist for 60 or 70 years, and survived. Would any national Eastern Europe leader launch WMD’s at Russian, thus guaranteeing the annihilation of their population?

What’s the difference between a WMD face-off between America and Russia, and Eastern (or even Western) Europe and Russia?

Credibility. The U.S. has backed it’s nuc’s with conventional forces, has put skin into the equation, and has proven a credible threat to Russia. The U.S. conventional capability also gives the USA levers to push that Europe totally lacks. If Georgia had WMD’s AND a credible conventional deterrent, they would have been able to bloody the Russian Bear during the initial attack while escalating the rhetoric, which might have convinced Putin that Georgia was not worth the increasing risk.

What the liberals and arm-chair military Generals misunderstand is the psychological effectiveness of military deterrent married with demonstrated political will. It’s not the arms, the troops, or the size of the economy, it’s the COMMITMENT that forms a credible deterrent.

I agree that the Eastern European countries are absolutely at risk, and a credible military deterrent is the only thing that will keep them free. It will be expensive. It will be a multi-nation “Manhattan Project”. It will force them to downsize their government to an extremely low cost public sector, low tax/high growth private sector model, or the cost of defense will break them.

There’s one other thing: The only way that these former Russian slave states will permanently get Russian off their back would be to do something like joining together to force Russia to leave Georgia. That precedent would prove the credibility of their deterrent.

I have to confess, I don’t totally understand these countries. Poland, for example, had their people butchered by both Germany and Russia. “Job 1″ upon securing their freedom should have been WMD’s and a conventional military, and “Job 2″ should have been forming military alliances with other former Eastern European Soviet slave states to share the burden. NATO is a false hope for their security; always has been, always will be. Maybe they actually believed that Russia was becoming a Democratic state. I have never believed that. Oligarchy is in the Russian blood. Russia seems almost “Latin” in character, i.e. Russians always look to a king or strong man (e.g. Castro, Chavez, a Tsar) for their security (in the broad sense, including economic). Russia will always try to dominate its neighboring states.

Eastern Europe will hang together against Russia and the Western Europeans, or they will all hang separately (to use Ben Franklin’s terms).

Jul 17, 2009 - 3:33 pm 63. buddy larsen:

Dan/59; I’d like to know what gives

Marina Kalashnikova’s Warning to the West.

I’d say, if an extremely capable, dedicated and sophisticated barbarian army is at your gate, and your emperor in the gatekeep is preoccupied throwing dice with your ministers, you’d better be praying the Praetorian Guard at least is paying attention.

Jul 17, 2009 - 4:30 pm 64. Dave:

Mark #44 (and all others): Google up
“Angel of Ploesti” along with “Catherine Caradja” and “Constatine Cantacuzene”.

See what you find.

And now for the rest of the story: Romania was a monarchy in 1940 with a vacant throne as the heir was underage. Civilian regent took the country into a formal alliance with the Third Reich.

In 1944, heir became of age. With some OSS help, there was regime change, the alliance with Hitler was renounced and Romanians freed themselves to the maximum extent possible.

Churchill and Roosevelt rather ignored these developments and Stalin’s Red Army was closing in to “liberate” not only Romania but the large numbers of American POWs held in Romania.

That was when Captain Cantacuzene flew an American Colonel back to Italy (in the radio compartment of an ME109!) to get help.

Princess Caradja set up a Command Post on her
property, armed and equipped a squad of POWs and put them in positions to observe and coordinate.

Then what was left of Romanian forces fought a delaying action against Nazis and Communists alike while a convoy of B17s landed, loaded POWs and took them home.

In other words, Romanians made their Last Stand on our behalf. In return, they got the shaft. And a self-serving J. Edgar Hoover libeled both Princess Caradja and Captain Cantacuzene as secret communists. A perpetually inebriated Joe McCarthy swalled this hook, line and sinker.

And just two years ago, George Soros and the Goldmans blocked the modernization and re-opening of the Rosa Montana mine (bad for the environment, you know) leaving the Romanian miners almost without food for the winter.

And those people are STILL pro-American!!!!!
I wonder what Higher Power has granted u,s friends like that.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:17 pm 65. buddy larsen:

From back in February, remember this? Rus immigrant (& current *cough* Massachusetts resident) Dmitri Orlov, who surely isn’t a Kremlin agent bearing any sort of “shhhh, now…just relax…you may feel a little sting, but…it’s gonna be alright” message, becuz he’s so clearly interested in our welfare, and so clearly just-wants-to-share-his-experiences from back in poor old Russia, which in this chain of inevitability just happened to have melted-down a tad sooner than USA must.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:18 pm 66. Lifeofthemind:

Walter Cronkite passes. Thread worthy I would think. Early harbinger of the power of the press to lose a war with uncounted costs in lives and treasure lost.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:37 pm 67. Doug:

46. dan:

“Interesting:
the shadow of Russia falls over the letter, but the authors rarely name them.
I wonder, in the absence of crusading Marxism-Leninism, what the purpose of Russian expansion is, how it will be politically rationalized, and what form it will take. It is difficult to imagine Russia gobbling up Poland to start World Revolution in Germany, for example, or sending the Red Army into France to hook up with a coup d’etat there. Yet Moscow builds Iran’s reactors and transforms it into a colossal provocation, docks subs in the Syrian harbor it re-dredges, enables Chavez and North Korea, etc….
—
Whirled Peas.
Obviously

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:38 pm 68. Doug:

1984 has been Nineteen Eight Foured!
It’s downright…

Orwellian

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:43 pm 69. Ben Franklin:

I see the plea less as a cry for help from the Eastern Europeans as it is an attempt to help the US regain its respect for liberty and freedom. The old Soviet Bloc countries felt the boot of the Soviets but even more acutely they felt the tender caress of Marxism. The kind of Marxism the US is now flirting with, and the kind that Old Europe has been sapped by — as finally enough empty headed kids have matriculated through the leftist colleges with no idea that what they have been told is all wrong, and that the people who taught it to them knew it to be so.

The colleges were the delayed time bomb planted by the Soviets during the cold war. They managed to get their agitprop accepted as curriculum but their society collapsed of its own internal contradictions before the bomb could go off. The results are Obama — a man whose accomplishments and depth of knowledge could only seem impressive to someone who still lives in their mother’s basement. We were lured into the trap but the hunter died before he could collect his prize.

I have to think the Eastern Europeans are sophisticated enough to know that Obama and Putin are ideologically similar enough that no help will be coming from the US unless the public forces the president to act. I think their letter was more an attempt to shame the president and the US and to wake us up to the fact that we are no longer seen as a protector of free peoples.

It will be interesting to see if any country comes forward to pick up the mantle that the US has relinquished. I don’t see any contenders — which makes me think we had better set about the business of chewing our own leg off to get out of the trap before a different hunter or predator comes along to finish us off. We will be very lucky if the world survives this presidency without events being set in place that will take generations to set right.

How many tyrants do you think will look back upon Obama’s reign as their glory days?

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:46 pm 70. Dave:

LOTM #66: Passing so noted. Personal forgiveness hereby extended. Forgetfulness not.

Donning combat gear on the roof of a hotel miles from any fighting in order to give the impression of being in the thick of things is a trifle fraudulent.

Then to use the contrived impression to present a pre-conceived notion (the war is lost) as a reluctant conclusion derived from first-hand experience was to carry the fraud beyond the pale.

Now for the good news: Today, I do not think that anybody could get away with that stunt. Not even the skillful charlatan currently in the White House. The net, the blogosphere, newer commercial media outlets, and so forth and so on means that equally credible voices of dissent WILL be heard and heeded by an adequate number of objective-minded people.

As parlous as things may seem (and even be) to us, our capabilities are better now than then. Cannot say the same for the other side.

Good enough for me.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:49 pm 71. bill-tb:

Of course this assumes that Colonel Obama doesn’t want to give them back to Russia.

America’s Statue of Liberty and light of freedom temporarily has a hood over it.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:54 pm 72. Doug:

We can sacrifice Israel to honor Walter as we sacrifice Medical Care to honor Ted.

Jul 17, 2009 - 5:56 pm 73. Lifeofthemind:

Dave,
The thing about forgiveness is that it is personal. I can forgive the harm you have done to me but do I have the right to forgive the harm you did to another? On Yom Kippur Jews recite the Kol Nidre reminding God that the promises made to God are forgiven by him. The caveat is always noted that God does not forgive the injury done to a human being. That is the great moral triumph of Judaism that both Christianity and Islam fail to equal. They both make God a partner in a corrupting show in which people run to him for absolvance rather than clear the debts they owe to each other. This is like a child that runs to tell their father that they feel terrible that something happened to their sister, suspecting that doing so will get them off the hook for hitting her.

So while you can forgive Mr Cronkite for the injury he might have done to you and can even advocate others forgiving him as members of the community you cannot absolve him of all responsibility for the sufferings of millions brought on by America’s defeat and retreat, including by extension the blighted lives, wasted treasure and empowered tyrants brought on by the rise of Obama. Actions have consequences and the final determination of payment for harm done but not acknowledged in this world is left to a judgment after we are departed.

That said I do not believe that Mr Cronkite was a bad man. He was a good man who meant well and erred. The impact of his actions may well have surprised even himself. It was not all of his life but it was an important part of it. It should be viewed as neither more nor less than that.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:35 pm 74. buddy larsen:

This wobble the media has introduced into American balance began with what the press did with that third-rate burglary at the Watergate Hotel. Cronkite, instead of (as he did) pumping and pumping and pumping the story, could’ve weighted it properly, in the frame of custom and responsibility, and thereby allowed it to be what –before the coverage itself became the story –it was: a slightly embarrassing little slapstick instance of dumbass partisanship.

Instead he threw his enormous weight behind this pissant little event, and did yeoman work making it into a world-historical Biblical morality play.

As FoxNews ace reporter James Rosen makes clear in his book on the topic, The Strong Man, ‘Watergate the Epic’ was set in motion by the Kennedy-for-president insiders, in alliance with the owner-publsher of the WaPo, Katherine Graham. The idea was to teach the upstart GOP Californian Nixon a lesson or two, while elevating Teddy of course by the contrast (anything anything at all to take our minds off or at least ameliorate The Swim).

That it led to Jimmy Carter, that it led to here now, doesn’t take much subjective noodling.

Walter Cronkite, now sitting down with Walter Duranty at the Euripides-McLuhan The-Tragedy-of-Modern-Communication table in the sky.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:50 pm 75. Kinuachdrach:

Why wonder about what Russia/Putin is up to? We have no clear idea about what US/Obama is up to.

But let’s look on the bright side. The last couple of decades have generally speaking been the “good old days”. Not for the people in the Twin Towers who faced the choice between jumping to their deaths or burning to death. But for many of the rest of us, the world has been a wonderful place.

But now the curtain is coming down. The lamps are going out all over Europe, and we shall not see them lit again in our lifetimes; etc. We cannot stop what is going to happen, but we can appreciate the remaining months until all hell breaks loose. 1939 all over again.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:54 pm 76. Lifeofthemind:

High Noon, the title sequence with the original soundtrack, by that old cowboy Dmitri Tiomkin and Lyrics by Ned Washington. Sung by Tex Ritter, whose son John set his own standard for popular entertainment.

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:55 pm 77. Doug:

Buddy:
We’ll need a medium to feel the massage

Jul 17, 2009 - 6:57 pm 78. Armeggedon Rex:

Mongoose #61:

You wrote:
“…Patriots in the DoD, State and Intel communities should take it upon themselves to hamper Obama’s agenda and inform the E. Europeans that in fact we have not thrown off our historic duties…”

Why should responsible people who are in positions to know better wish to lie to our independence loving former allies in Eastern Europe? THEY ARE ON THEIR OWN!!!

Unless the economy craters soon, or the birthers turn out to be correct and can produce corroborating evidence that will actually be reported by the MSM, Obamassiah is here to stay for the next 3+ years. If the Bear wants to reacquire his old stomping grounds during that time, the good ole cowboy U.S. of A will file a strongly worded protest with the United Nations.

Several commenters have already laid out the only realistic hope the former Soviet satellites have of maintaining independence, and it involves nuclear weapons and MAD strategies.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:00 pm 79. reg:

75. Kinuachdrach:

It’s about to hit the fan and we’ve got our eyes closed and are holding our breath.the whole game is about to change, into what we don’t know ,but everybody except the fanatics know it.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:04 pm 80. Doug:

Better get this while you still can:
—
The study stressed the importance of recognizing aortic dissection versus the diagnosis of a heart attack.

Yasbeck is also trying to promote awareness. After Ritter’s death, his older brother, Tommy, was diagnosed with the same condition.

“All of us said,
‘You know, Uncle Tommy, you gotta go get scanned,’ ”
Yasbeck said.
“They found it. It was in the exact same spot. He’s living proof … He had his operation right before Christmas. And he is alive. And he is here for Stella and John’s kids. And they know that their father’s brother is alive because he had a chance.”
Ritter’s widow Actor ‘didn’t have a chance’

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:06 pm 81. Mongoose:

A. Rex: Oh, I imagine that if they put there heads together they could stop it, even push him from office. He is just a man you know.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:21 pm 82. buddy larsen:

Nothing against an actor making a living, but for me, “Three’s Company” had, just *had*, to’ve been designed, willed, to destroy the very concept of ‘humor’. Even to its ritual humiliation of Don Knotts, the show’s ambassador from the apex generation of Real American Humorists (whom you can see today congregated in a film called “It’s a Mad Mad Mad Mad World). So, ‘Three’ was subversive. Go ahead and snort, but it was. The laugh lines way over-reached, and then fall flat even doing that. Which as a dada motif could’ve worked, except they were so broadly and crudely set-up, that instead of the drollery and irony which may’ve been ’small-funny’, they just mocked the whole idea of wit. and it wasn’t even mockery, because mockery has to be aware of itself. “Three’s” wasn’t –in fact, what it mocked was whoever was watching it. And the canned laff track!

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:23 pm 83. Lifeofthemind:

Every frame in High Noon is a perfect photograph. John Wayne hated the movie. Eisenhower and Reagan and Clinton liked it.
For the alternative see 2:37 Son you’re on your own.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:28 pm 84. Doug:

Buddy,
I never saw it, so can’t comment.
Never knew much about John, either, sure heard a lot about what a genuinely nice guy he was.
…course millions say that about MJ!
Where do you weigh in on that one?

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:35 pm 85. buddy larsen:

doug, hmm, ok, howz this: MJ was about death from the very get-go. a dance of a spirit-body dis-integration –death. the zombie stuff and the transmogrification and the cutting and anesthetizing, he must have known it, too. the dance moves like a corpse rigged with muscle-twitching electrical leads, not human-languid but machine-quick. all along, he was showing us Hell, and that he was dead in it.

but that’s just me — & i’m generations too old to get whatever the kids see. or saw. so wot did you see?

yep, i heard –saw on some tribute show — somewhere that John Wayne thought Will Kane was out of line asking the townsfolk for help. In fact he made one movie as a rebuttal of High Noon –i think it was the one with Dean Martin and Ricky Nelson.

Jul 17, 2009 - 7:51 pm 86. Lifeofthemind:

buddy larsen,
Rio Bravo was Wayne’s answer to High Noon. A good movie actually but Wayne was wrong or rather let himself get played like a bull following the cape. The real issue was HUAC and the McCarthy era. Milos Foreman was blacklisted, The socialist ideals in the film seem pretty abstract to me. Perhaps in a Socialist paradise the community would not need a Lawman but would all stand together, like in The Magnificent Seven. Perhaps Wayne just objected to the portrayal of pioneering Americans as cowardly. In that sense it was an extension of film noir dysutopianism to the golden age of mythic America.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:11 pm 87. buddy larsen:

lotm, now that you mention it, there it is –a townsfolk collective, helpless ‘as a people’ (to borrow a fave Obama leitmotif) without a charismatic bossman to save the day. yep –that would likely be at least one of Wayne’s critiques –as he saw the settlers differently, portraying the best (even if it was the best ‘worst’) in even minor character individuals.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:27 pm 88. peterike:

As for Mr. Nelson, one need only glance at his blog to see this little bio gem:

Like “Kim Zigfield”, I’m not using my real name, but collecting bits and pieces from others.

Not your real name? Tish, tish. Perhaps because KGB agents don’t reveal their real names readily. I hereby dub you the new Secret Squirrel of the Belmont Club. Congratulations on receiving that moniker from the previous bearer, one Valerie Plame.

As for Russia, is there anything quite as offensive to taste and manners as a cluster of Ruskie plutocrats getting into a Hummer limo at JFK — the guys all decked out in Soprano suits and gold bling like rap stars, wrist watches large enough to land a lunar module on; the dolls in skin tight glittery micro-mini skirts and six inch heels in some vague notion of what might have been fashionable once for thirty seconds sometime in the 80s. Aye, ’tis a sight I’ve seen woefully too many times. Really, from the point of view of the airport, Russia seems to be a country composed entirely of gangsters and sluts.

Of course, that would be a vile caricature. The country, indeed, is not composed only of gangsters and sluts. That’s the ruling class.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:36 pm 89. Doug:

Larsen at his finest describing MJ,
but I was asking about John!
If you can match your MJ rant,
Walt will temporarily occupy second place.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:45 pm 90. peterike:

The NY Times (pardon the expression) notes today that after Rafsanjani’s speech in Iran, the following occurred:

As the speech ended and traditional calls to chant “Death to America” came over the loudspeaker, many in the crowd instead chanted “Death to Russia.” Many opposition supporters are angry about Russia’s quick acceptance of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s election victory.

Perhaps Mr. Nelson will inform us why this, too, is an outrage against common sense.

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:46 pm 91. Doug:

Man, now Peter’s in the running!

Jul 17, 2009 - 8:48 pm 92. Doug:

Course Peter was just describing what he saw.

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:01 pm 93. buddy larsen:

That’s a peculiar style of internet moniker –a complete facsimile of an actual name –even down to the inclusion of a middle initial. I mean, how weird –as weird as asking people to believe that Georgia’s armed forces were equal or better than Russia’s (maybe the first few thousand troops, the first fighter squadron, the first tank brigade –but then Georgia goes to zero and Putin still has a hundred divisions, 6000 combat aircraft, 2000 tanks, 2000 medium range bombardment missiles, ICBMs, brown and blue and undersea water navies, theater nukes, tac nukes, battlefield nukes, 21st century C&C, hordes of heavily-armed out-of-uniform bloodthirsty psycho-irregulars with permission from Russian puppets to keep whatever properties and farms they can murder or terrorize the owners out of, and a gas and oil -powered 20,000 man diplomatic/espionage corp lodged in every world city, fully armed with honey-pot fotos of the local national leaders, street demonstrators on-call, bought journos, et cetera et cetera).

doug, let me decline the invite –if i put walt in temp 2nd place, i’ll go all Satchel Paige until i lose. anyway, how’d YOU get to be judge? i protest! in fact, i’m revolting!

Jul 17, 2009 - 9:29 pm 94. Robohobo:

Buddy @ 63: re: “Marina Kalashnikova’s Warning to the West”

One of the few times a link has made me sit up and go “Hmm!” What would be the agent provocateur? What would set off the desired war? Surely with The 0bamanation in office they cannot expect any kind of action other than strongly worded letters to the UNSC?

That Mother Russia wants to reestablish her empire is not out of the question. I think that they would wish to. But to control what? Europe? Not much there there. Though I can imagine for a certain mind set control is enough.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:04 pm 95. Doug:

I was afraid I’d be caught out.
Life ain’t easy when you’re revolting.
Failure always eminent for the wiseacre Okie.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:07 pm 96. Dave:

Buddy, you may be rebelling, but you remain
a nice guy.

It is that other bozo that is plumb revolting.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:12 pm 97. Lifeofthemind:

The peasants are revolting.

I’ll say. They stink on ice.
- Mel Brooks

If only.
- Me

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:37 pm 98. Mad Fiddler:

I think I’ve finally worked out Yrkle’s plan.

He will make the US into such a paralytic cesspool that illegal immigrants will turn around in disgust, resigned at last to return to the slavery they thought they wanted to escape.

He has a long way to go, but he’s made an admirable start.

Seriously, all you have to do is extend the lines on the graphs out a few years — number of NON-citizens granted full rights of citizenship, for instance for being captured in battle while trying to murder infidels… plus all the “undocumented aliens” residing within the US in violation of our laws… plus the people who can afford to have fraudulent birth certificates fobbed off… plus all the enterpreneurs risking their lives to bring cocaine, crack, and heroin into the US in response to the insatiable demand for those goodies.

At the same time, graph the dwindling birth rate of conservatives, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, people who have faith in any religion whatsoever and other people too pathetically stupid get with the program.

Sooner or later, those lines cross, and the population actually producing taxable wealth dwindles below detectability.

Yrkle and Co. are eating their seed corn.

————————–

I note that despite all his threats, Alec Baldwin didn’t decamp merely because the detestable dubbya stole the 2004 election. He’s even flirting with seeking a Congressional seat now.

What was it that drove Americans become Parisian “Expats”… to sip absinthe and smoke Gauloises and wear no undies and speculate on the meaninglessness of life with ennui and angst?

Musta been the exchange rate tween dollar and franc.

I read a peer-reviewed medical journal article somewhere indicating a causal link between unshaved feminine axillary regions and Alzheimer’s.

Jul 17, 2009 - 10:55 pm 99. Doug:

WT?

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:12 pm 100. Doug:

The peers were revolted, but they carried out their duties.

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:14 pm 101. RCM:

AWH @ 37: Obama will act like the unsuccessful business man who frustrated by his defeat(s) at the office, comes home to be the dictator (or success) he cannot be at work. Once through the door at home, he begins by kicking the dog and hits or berates his family members.

Obama sounded that way today when in semi-tantrum mode he vowed about his health plan: “We are going to get this done. We will reform health care. It will happen this year. I’m absolutely convinced of that.”

Left out of his statement? “Or else…”

He will be real good at whacking what he feels are comotose and defenseless Americans.

The others (Putin, et al), however, hit back.

It will greatly surprise him if we do too. He has already shown that he doesn’t like the word “NO!”

Jul 17, 2009 - 11:54 pm 102. JMH:

Walter Cronkite, now sitting down with Walter Duranty at the Euripides-McLuhan The-Tragedy-of-Modern-Communication table in the sky.

Buddy, my guess is that the table’s at a slightly lower elevation.

Obama will act like the unsuccessful business man who frustrated by his defeat(s) at the office, comes home to be the dictator (or success) he cannot be at work. Once through the door at home, he begins by kicking the dog and hits or berates his family members.

I think you’re right. Obama is absolutely clueless and helpless internationally. Domestically is the only place he can do anything. He’s cluess here at home too, but for the moment has a complicit majority in Congress and a lap-dog press helping him throw his (light) weight around. I suspect he will simply try to ignore foreign policy as much as he can. Unfortunately for him, and pretty much everyone else as well, foreign policy has an upleasant way of refusing to be ignored.

It will greatly surprise him if we do too. He has already shown that he doesn’t like the word “NO!”

It’ll be a surprise to him that the world ain’t Chicago.

Jul 18, 2009 - 12:35 am 103. RCM:

LotM @ 73:

Well, we learn something every day on this board, especially this:

“That is the great moral triumph of Judaism that both Christianity and Islam fail to equal. They both make God a partner in a corrupting show in which people run to him for absolvance rather than clear the debts they owe to each other.”

I must have misundrestimated the meaning then, of this:

“…And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

And this:

Matthew 5:22 -24 – But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

At certain times of the year, especially during Passover, Jews brought gifts (animal sacrifices) that they offered at the altar in the temple in Jerusalem. This “altar” stood in the Court of the Priests; the person bringing the gift entered this inner court to worship God and offer a specific sacrifice as are described in the book of Leviticus. The Jews brought their gifts as a matter of course, as part of keeping God’s Law. But Jesus explained that those who come into God’s presence to worship must come with pure hearts, not hindered by broken relationships that they had the power to mend. Interestingly, this verse focuses not on the worshiper’s anger, but on the anger someone else feels toward the worshiper (even, I suppose, if the anger is unjustified). Jesus explained that if the worshiper remembered someone’s anger against him or her, that person should leave the gift and go immediately to be reconciled to the offended brother or sister. Then he should come back to worship and offer his or her gift.

Seems to me that Christ went “a step further” than was expected back in the day, in indicating that God did not appreciate a less than contrite heart in one wishing to receive God’s blessing.

Jul 18, 2009 - 1:51 am 104. gokart-mozart:

61 Mongoose: “It is not that he is merely an arrogant and woolypheaded Ivy League, leftist elitist. He is a Marxist-Leninist. He would hand E.Europe back to Russia and rebuild the USSR even if the Russians want no such thing to occur.”

But they do. It’s part of the iron laws of history.

I wonder if Obama received the Order of Lenin on his recent trip?

Jul 18, 2009 - 2:06 am 105. buddy larsen:

I’m wearing the Odor of Linen on my shirt this very minute!

Jul 18, 2009 - 3:30 am 106. Doug:

Lennon, it’s Lennon!

Jul 18, 2009 - 3:53 am 107. OldSalt:

Iraq Restricts U.S. Forces

Fifty years from now, I can see monuments in Iraq praising the blood and contributions of the American soldiers and Marines towards Iraqi Democracy and Freedom . [/end sarcasm].

For a country that has been given so much so freely to repeatedly stick their thumb in our eye (or more culturally correct, the soles of their shoes in our face), is really pretty outrageous. My vote, which has never meant much in this country, goes to (a) withdraw immediately, as fast as is safe for US personnel and citizens, (b) return with our equipment, or burn it, or better yet, give anything left over to Israel, (c) destroy every base and piece of infrastructure, (d) light off the oil fields and refineries for good measure – leave them just a little bit better than Saddam did, and (e) arm the Kurds with anything they want to achieve a separate, independent state.

Iraq doesn’t have to love us, or be grateful for anything, but they sure as hell better respect us.

Thus endeth America’s second failed nation-building experiment. Perhaps it worked in Germany and Japan, but they were defeated foes. The Iraqi elite has never accepted responsibility for anything, and lumped all blame upon Saddam Hussein. They have never considered themselves “defeated”, thus nation building was premature and unwise. If the same effort and expense had instead been invested in war with Syria and Iran, REAL nation building with secular Democracies might now be possible.

What a waste. Not because America went to war, but because instead of finishing the job and putting America’s interests first, we adopted the left-wing fantasy that education and money were all it takes to change a culture, and we wasted American lives and treasure on post-war Iraq.

Get us the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan; neither are worth one more American soldier. Invest in countries who will actually fight for their independence (e.g. select Eastern European Countries), and be true allies for America.

Jul 18, 2009 - 5:24 am 108. buddy larsen:

re afghanistan –i just wish i knew why the big-money left is so pro-war. so oddly pro-war. it gives me the willies bad.

Jul 18, 2009 - 6:22 am 109. Mongoose:

Buddy, well, quit stalin on that and send it out to the cleaners.

Jul 18, 2009 - 6:36 am 110. Lifeofthemind:

Old Salt,
The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.
- Otto von Bismarck

In this case however I disagree. The woulda, coulda, shouldas of the Iraq wars will keep graduate students happy for many years. Were Bush 41 and Colin Powell to damn clever by half in leaving Saddam in Baghdad after the 1991 Gulf War? Yes but that does us as much good as blaming the whole mess on Jimmy Carter. Going home is not the answer. Doing so and more important advocating doing so concedes the debate to Obama and Company. The Left are always going to be as disruptive and obnoxious as possible in the hope that other voices withdraw from the debate. They are like the derelict on the subway who surrounds himself with bad smells and offensive mumbles to drive away other people. Throwing up our hands over Iraq makes as much sense as throwing up our hands over vote fraud at home. We are still stuck with Minnesota even if Incitatus Franken is soiling the United States Senate.

The catalog of ways in which our enemies both foreign and domestic have fought to disrupt our efforts and deny the US victory is long. Remember the French working to deny the 4th Infantry Division access to Turkey for the initial invasion? Our meek acceptance of Chirac’s betrayal empowered our enemies. After the four Americans were lynched in Fallujah I advocated a carthaginian response for that city. The champions of war by lawyering crafted a more nuanced response which worked when backed by massive American ingenuity and support but which is likely to erode as we withdraw. Similarly our failure to eliminate Muqtada al Sadr when we had the unquestioned authority to do so emboldened the ankle biters. If we had siezed the opportunity in 2003 to drive the price of oil down to $15/barrel we could have broken OPEC. That would have bankrupted both the Saudi/Iranian terror machines and Russia. It also would have strengthened our hand with China. All those hesitations and errors were a result of obstruction from the Left.

The fact is that we must play the hand we are dealt and not kick over the table or go home. Teddy Roosevelt was right. We must stay in the arena.

Jul 18, 2009 - 6:44 am 111. buddy larsen:

mongoose, yup –need to launder all those sweat marx in the pits

Jul 18, 2009 - 6:44 am 112. Lifeofthemind:

RCM,
You are of course correct in regard to the theology but unfortunately a religion is not merely a theological abstract but it is also a mechanism for molding human behavior. Setting aside the problem in Islam, where the use of the highly unsuitable example of Muhammad as the “perfect man” results in conduct at wide variance with any higher moral ideals, let us consider Christianity. The restatement of the moral code of Judaism is as you note clear and the use of the morally blameless Jesus as an example to emulate is certainly superior to that in Islam. The problem is that the mechanism of the Church is staffed by people who are fallible. The inevitable confusion over the role of works, as mediated by the institution of the Church, in conferring absolution from sin is what results in so many persisting in the belief that a show of contrition is sufficient. Your position that a true redress of error is still called for is admirable but unfortunately people will naturally tend to view absolution and grace as commodities. That is what caused the indulgences scandals of the Middle Ages and Luther’s break with Rome.

Jul 18, 2009 - 7:11 am 113. maineman:

LOFTM, agree with #110. And it’s still way too early to call the outcome, even given the apparent mistakes of execution.

To return to theological themes, OIF always had the benefit of conforming to moral law. Nothing can be greater in value than sacrificing for our brothers, even when they disappoint us or respond without proper gratitude. I’m hugely nationalistic when it comes to America — the real America, not the current facsimile — but that doesn’t confuse me regarding the ultimate value of an American life or dollar as compared to those of the rest of humanity.

Another point is that the basic idea was to cut the Gordian Knot in the Middle East. This has been done, and the world will never go back to business as usual. We still have every reason to hope that the long term consequences will be beneficial as they contribute to the next stage of human development, even though such change will be messy and sometimes ugly by its very nature.

Re #112, I would quibble that religion is less a means of molding behavior than a guidebook that clues us in, for better or worse depending on the religion, clues us in to the natural order so as to enable us to conform to it to the best of our abilities. Human variability in managing to do so is a different matter, or at least not equivalent to the religion itself.

Jul 18, 2009 - 7:17 am 114. geoffgo:

Yes, Walter Cronkite passed; but that disinformer could only wish for this kind of respect.

Sergeant First Class John C. Beale

http://tinyurl.com/mnct5u

Jul 18, 2009 - 7:18 am 115. buddy larsen:

All well & good on the arena, lotM, but, just for a little historical cartooning here, had Teddy gotten out of the arena before the 1912 Bullmoose run, we’d not’ve had the Progressive Era –in the same way we did have it, and the WWI ‘ruoined peace’ without Wilson in on it from the beginning (his promises of the Armistice petulantly lapsed at Versailles) could’ve hardly done worse than give birth to herr Schiklegruber. Not to mention the conditions leading to the Great Depression. And on and on from there.

–thing is, there’s more than the one arena, we’re all playing in several all the time –and by staying in the one (and splitting the GOP with Taft), Teddy took leave of another –maybe call it the ‘wisdom & forebearance’ arena.

Jul 18, 2009 - 7:24 am 116. Doug:

Teddy was ready with more Big Govt, just like cousin FDR did so well.
But neither tried as hard as
Brother Obama.
May the CBO response be the beginning of the end.

Jul 18, 2009 - 8:37 am 117. bogie wheel:

lotm, now that you mention it, there it is –a townsfolk collective, helpless ‘as a people’ (to borrow a fave Obama leitmotif) without a charismatic bossman to save the day. yep –that would likely be at least one of Wayne’s critiques –as he saw the settlers differently, portraying the best (even if it was the best ‘worst’) in even minor character individuals.

Re: High Noon, can I take a whack at this one?

First off, I think whatever bothered John Wayne at the time about the movie (I think it was a combo of what LOTM mentioned — Kane’s scurrying around town trying to assemble help — and his throwing his star in the dirt at the end), and prompted Wayne to label it “unAmerican,” has since kind of fallen by the wayside with regard to common perception/reception of the movie nowadays. Ditto, whatever ACP member Carl Foreman tried to inject or thought he was injecting into the movie.

From what I’ve read commentary-wise, most people over the years, and most people now, seem to read the movie as a kind of “majority of one” morality tale, NOT connected to the domestic front in the Cold War. It seems to be read as far more of a timeless morality tale than that. Good Man stands alone against evil, is backstabbed (not fatally, but only just barely) by cowardice of the collective, who are unworthy of the efforts and sacrifice of the Good Man.

The characterization of the townsfolk is where I have to disagree with you, Buddy. They are not portrayed as “helpless” but instead as gutless. And that is in fact the condemnation of them as the film portrays them. Physically, and as a unified entity, they are entirely capable of taking on and vanquishing the Miller gang. It’s just that they won’t do what morality and necessity both call for them to do.

My understanding of “High Noon” (not original to me, I’m just agreeing with what I’ve read elsewhere), is that it is the fulcrum between the era of the classic Western and the modern Western. In the classic Western, the frontier is a wild and dangerous place in need of civilizing; settler families (and I emphasize families: the presence of women is critical) are morally positive and a force for good; and “savages” (white and red), who adhere to no laws of civilization, prey upon anyone and everyone else. When a lone gunslinger is the protagonist in one of these films, it’s usu. because he helps the positive forces of civilization beat the barbarians (think “Shane”), but he never does really belong to civilization (he’s too independent to settle down, too violent for polite company), so he usu. goes off by himself at the end.

But the important point in all classic Westerns is that the moral impetus in the film is in the direction of civilization. The frontier (wild & beautiful in some respects, but ultimately dangerous and uninhabitable by “decent folk” [i.e. families]) must be tamed.

This equation got inverted in the modern Western. In these movies, so-called “civilization” is where the savages (usu. greedheads and hypocrites who won’t live by the rules they want to impose on everyone else) live, and the frontier is the last refuge of the good guys (those who cherish liberty and honor). The moral impetus in the film is in the direction of the frontier and the preservation of it. Civilization is what’s gonna kill us all.

It’s understandable that the modern Western came about after WWII, as a psychological response to “civilization” nearly destroying itself. (Same thing with sci-fi movies, which took a turn for the existential after WWII, and with crime movies, in which film noir cornered the market in “criminals aren’t the problem; humanity is the problem” outlook.)

“High Noon” straddles the two eras, and you can see elements of both era’s values in this movie. In line with the classical Western, it portrays civilization as a desirable thing. Kane has fought & bled for it; the debate in the town church has people talking about how bad things used to be when the Miller gang (read, the savages) ruled by terror; it wasn’t safe for a woman to walk down the street. Under the security of Kane’s badge and gun, the town has grown prosperous, content, a good place to live. Also in line with the classical Western, the Miller gang is clearly and purely evil. HOWEVER … the problem is that the townspeople won’t stand up against evil and fight to keep the good that has been hard won. In line with the modern Western, civilization is corrupt and hypocritical. It pays lips service to “law and order” but won’t make the necessary sacrifice. Kane’s rejection of (so-called) civilization at the end of the movie is very much a modern Western event. But it does leave you wondering just where he & Amy are going to set themselves up afterwards ….

“High Noon” portrays civilization not as oppressive but as weak-willed. And that cravenness invites the tyranny of the savage. Which is, in the film’s view, a much bigger threat to personal liberty than any potential threat from the forces of law and order (i.e. Kane).

In their own way, the classical Westerns and the modern Westerns bandy about these issues of security vs. liberty that we have been discussing on many other threads at BC. I happen to love Westerns (being the quintessential American genre in the quintessential American art form) and they do seem to be a good kind of barometer on not just Americans’ view of the past but our view of the present as well.

Remember that John Wayne was born out of the classical Western. So I can understand why he would have had serious problems with “High Noon,” though I do happen to disagree with him on points. In his view, Gary Cooper should have handled the whole thing himself (though perhaps Woody Strode shoulda been there to pitch in) without going to the townspeople to ask for help. But one can make a case that Kane’s asking for assistance was both dramatically necessary and perhaps a more realistic indicator of what a man in that situation would do. In the end, I think, the movie serves as a reinforcement of individual initiative and judgment (not just Will Kane’s, but Amy Kane’s) and a rejection of collectivism. Not because collectivism isn’t, in the abstract, desirable (all sorts of good reasons are advanced as to why the citizens of Hadleyville should pony up for the occasion), but because it just doesn’t work. It goes against human nature. And I can’t think of a more conservative argument than that.

Just my view. I think “High Noon” is a great, great film. I don’t care for Gary Cooper as an actor but the film has everything else going for it. That and “The Searchers” — the best two Westerns, still, in my book.

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:08 am 118. peterike:

Interesting ruminations on “High Noon” from my favorite film critic, James Bowman.

http://www.jamesbowman.net/diaryDetail.asp?hpID=158

This is part of a series on the American movie hero, well worth reading for film buffs out there, as are all of Bowman’s commentaries.

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:28 am 119. Lifeofthemind:

bogie wheel,
Well done. Personally I have no problem with communities coming together to solve problems and protect themselves. That seems more Conservative and civilized then relying on a Leader to do it for you. The problem with Socialists is that they conflate the family, the community and all of humanity into one amorphous mass. A family is a socialist unit. Everybody has to pitch in because things need to get done and everybody gets helped regardless of whether they picked up their socks. A community, probably up to the size of Aristotle’s ideal polis of 5,000 voting citizens or a total population of 50,000 to 250,000, can impose many obligations on its’ members. The reality of the competitive market will constrain the temptation to drain the public wealth. Federalism seeks to preserve the legitimacy of local authority while constructing a shared power in which all have a stake in promoting common trade and security. When dealing with the bulk of humanity it is best to be guided by biblical injunctions regarding the just treatment of strangers but not to presume that you share common goals or the quality of Comity that is essential to accepting the authority of laws enacted by a common Sovereign.

Foreman was a better Artist then he was a Communist.

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:00 am 120. Lifeofthemind:

Weird, Google Ads is displaying still for Circuit City. Like a ghost in the machine.

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:08 am 121. bogie wheel:

The problem with Socialists is that they conflate the family, the community and all of humanity into one amorphous mass.

I’ve thought for some years now that the way certain issues are framed or articulated is not helpful to rational debate. There are entities besides “the individual” and “the state,” though to read some arguments on both right and left you wouldn’t know it. Which is my way of saying I agree with you, LOTM, that “family” and “community” are most definitely reckonable (is that a word?) entities.

The challenge is to not only be clear and precise in one’s own terminology, but also to not fall for sloppiness or semantic subterfuge from the left.

For example, when Hillary Clinton says, “It takes a village to raise a child” in her mind and intent, “village” = (to put a PA spin on it) “Pittsburgh City Council” and “Governor Rendell” and “Washington, D.C.” … not “village” = “Oma, Opa, Aunt Sophie & Uncle Ed, Father Pasternak, Miss Maudie next door, Mr. Weiss at the drug store, and little Johnny’s Boy Scout leader, etc.”

Because in the leftist mind, community = government. Or is the vein feeding into the artery thereof. Government is the highest order of human organization; the most effective and most desirable expression of non-individual action.

These are all easily recognizable fallacies to conservatives (the ones paying attention, at any rate).

What I find unfortunate are counter-arguments from the right that pit “the individual” versus “the state” without any room for entities that are neither non-government nor non-individual. It seems to me that these counter-arguments have unfortunately adopted leftist terms as a starting point. And we all know what happens when you cede the terms of debate to the other side.

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:33 am 122. bogie wheel:

Mr. Fernandez -

Thank you for this excellent forum. You definitely set the tone for the thoughtful comments with your outstanding posts. BC is an oasis of sanity.

If I were a bumper-sticker kinda person, which I’m not, I guess I’d be waiting for the “I *heart* Belmont Club” stickers ….

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:40 am 123. Mongoose:

Another way of saying that Socialism “conflates the family..into one amorphous mass” is to say that Socialism replaces society with the State, and in doing so destroys society.

A family is not a “socialist unit”, it is a social and cultural unit and one grounded the bonds of blood. Indeed, it is the primary social and cultural unit. Membership in one may not be elective, but the “governance” of families is hardly by diktat nor are its aims purely material, incidental, momentary or temporary. The future fate of a family rests, in part, on the moral heritage of that family. It will not do to say that it is a “microcosm of society” for it is quite the reverse: Society is a reflection and extension of the family. But “Society” is not a “macrocosm of the family” either. The further one goes from the family the more tenuous are the bonds between individuals and the more problematic becomes gathering assent, setting goals and evaluating outcomes. Society is the broader living moral and practical commons one must at times cultivate so that one may nurture one’s own.

We see this as we move from town to county, county to state, state to region and region to Nation. As we move out from the family so must we supplant the natural bond of blood with other bonds. Those bonds most firmly are shared culture and civilization, and yes, even race. But the point is none of these are government: government springs from them and thus they are both buttress and bulwark against tyranny. They have much more robust and profound moral and practical realities, requirements and duties.

How Society faces government is mirrored by how culture and civilization must countenance government, and indeed they are in one sense nothing the practical and moral ground of the family within society viewed and lived through time.

This is why all Socialist attempts to invert reality must fail and why they then must turn on society itself. Socialism is a purely intellectual construct ungrounded in any physical, moral or historical reality. To postpone its destruction must in the end turn on these things and seek their destruction.

This is perhaps its greatest evil, more evil than the destruction of individual liberty itself. Just ask any Russian.

Jul 18, 2009 - 11:11 am 124. RCM:

LotM,
Thank you for your well articulated reply (and the indulgence of BC posters), but is there not a common strain of all faiths that seems to act as the ghost in the machine? Man, as you indicate, is the weak link for implementing Christ’s message and I agree that many of what some call “cafeteria Christians” opt to balance church teachings with their personal druthers. I also agree with your point on the grievous error of indulgences. Slavery is also a bright shinning example. Also true is that those who refuse to learn Christ’s message, as opposed to picking and choosing their few, but strongly held beliefs, have as their common error, the ironic rejection of Christ’s truth. Quite frankly, it appears to me that no religion is served well by many of those who profess it and I am left wondering how Judaism, equally hindered by man’s obstinacy, does it better?

Jul 18, 2009 - 11:34 am 125. Dave:

bogiewheel #121: Good comment on how any form of collective endeavor is ass u me’d to require statist control—–and as a prerequisite to boot.

Buddy #115: Teddy’s 1912 error IMHO was not
in the Bullmoose run. It was in (a) trying to make a comeback in the GOP primaries and (b) letting Taft effectively steal the nomination. (Small, usually southern, states with a miniscule Republican party all wound up with excessively large delegations at the GOP convention. And these delegates were all Taft appointees/bloc votes.)
It was that scam that split GOP ranks and threw the election to Wilson. Again IMHO this would have happnened with or without a third party in the field.

And the very worst thing about Wilson and company? Not the Armistice etc of 1918, but
enshrining racism as the official policy of the federal government. A case of Jim Crow goes to Washington, by design, not accident.

As to World War I: Often overlooked is the fact that 35% of world industry was in the US at that time. The Yurps were running through
industrial output like there was no tommorrow. And they are going to ignore their own needs and respect American neutrality? Only if there is direct Divine Intervention. In short, Uncle Sam was in that war within a year of its outbreak, whether or not he wanted to be.

And he had taken sides, again willy-nilly.
Remember that the official name of those nice folks to our North is “The DOMINION of Canada.” England goes to war, Canada goes to war. Final answer. Therefore, normal levels of trade and commerce with Canada (let alone increased volumn) meant the the USA was
supporting England over Germany and did’nt even know it. Neutrality was a (dangerous) myth. Was and is, I should say. Capabilities trump ideology every time.

I do wish that Theodore had been in the White House when it all hit the fan over some fool thing in the Balkans. WAnt American intervention? You got it——on American terms. Not yours. That would have favorably altered the course of the war and its eventual outcome as well.

Failing that, I also wish that Leonard Wood could have gotten the GOP nomination in 1916
instead of a dying Charles Evans Hughes. Maybe Leonard’s credentials could have ousted Wilson, maybe not. However, Wilson would have had no choice but to adopt a more astutely belligerent posture and that would in turn have pointed things in a better direction.

And if wishes were horses, then beggars could ride. We all have to shoot pool from where the cue ball stops.

Jul 18, 2009 - 11:56 am 126. Steve J. Nelson:

Buddy Larsen,
You may be an old fart Cold Warrior still not sure if the Russkies want to refight WWII, much less WWIII (trust me, they don’t), but I like your comments. I think you should be more scared of the Russians and Chinese buying up all those big gorgeous foreclosures up the street from your retirement home in Florida than tanks rolling into Talinn or Warsaw…

Jul 18, 2009 - 1:15 pm 127. Lifeofthemind:

bogie wheel and Mongoose,
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I quibble only to polish the product. Humans can alter the terms of their associations. We can adapt, adopt, emigrate, intermarry and otherwise change the terms of the basic family and community units that we identify with. Doing so can bring vitality to our democratic culture and a strong democratic culture can make the tools of flexibility more resiliant. That does not mean that the reductio ad absurdum of open borders and random illegitimacy are to be celebrated or can be endured. There are optimums for everything.

RCM,
Thank you. My guess is that Judaism is protected by its’ modesty. The supremacist urges and Messianic visions in the original pre-Mosaic community were burned off thousands of years ago. Jews, like Shintoists, do not profess to proselytize but only to bear witness as examples of rectitude. It is unusual for a Jew to claim that theological values justify imposing one’s will in a secular setting.

In this it differs from Islam where individual members claim that the example of the Prophet and the text of Koran justify imposing their will to compel the submission of others. Of course in Islam there are no secular settings, all of society is either part of the Ummah or subject to compulsion.

That does not deny that many Jews justify their liberal political activity as an expression of religious values. It is my belief that they are generally in denial as to the coercive nature of the secular authority that such political activity calls on.

The other factor that has protected Judaism from substituting a focus on social manipulation for the infinitly harder one of focusing on individual responsibility is the loss of the Temple and the associated Priestly infrastructure. The rise of Rabbinic Judaism has undoubtedly made for a more adoptable and survivable faith and a community that has been spared from the temptations to engage in wasteful internal disputes in the name of conformity or external quests for power. If the Temple had remained Judaism might have ended up like Shia Islam or Eastern Orthodox Christianity. She is well freed of the limitations and corruptions that any such human institutions are prey to.

Jul 18, 2009 - 1:56 pm 128. Marie-Claude:

“Remember the French working to deny the 4th Infantry Division access to Turkey for the initial invasion? Our meek acceptance of Chirac’s betrayal empowered our enemies.

umm, not exactly, you can’t lecture a Turk what he should make

umm, your discourse is in the vein of the nice people that still try to demonise us for antisemitism, but the whole scenario was made by smart persons that had alredy decided to hold us as devil, convenient to focuse on one “enemi” designat to the plebe vindicte, in order to rally the populace to a project that had not the legal approbation at the UN

it’s in the neocon theoricians Bible

11 février 2003 — L’affaire dite du “veto” des trois pays hostiles à la guerre en Irak (Allemagne, Belgique, France), hier 10 février 2003, à l’OTAN, a eu un écho médiatique extraordinaire. Elle se poursuit évidemment sur le fond de l’affrontement avec le débat à l’ONU et la politique des trois “rebelles” (Allemagne, Belgique, France). Bien entendu, l’explosion de critiques entendues le 10 février ne correspond à aucune réalité, c’est d’abord le produit d’une mise en scène qui était destinée à faire céder ces trois pays, qui fait partie de la politique de violence des Anglo-Saxons; la décision elle-même (à l’OTAN) n’était pas nouvelle puisque deux votes négatifs (les 22 janvier et 6 février) ont déjà eu lieu. Néanmoins, comme toujours dans le processus de ce temps virtualiste, les effets induits par les démarches artificielles du départ sont, eux, on ne peut plus réels.

Ici, nous nous attachons à la substance de certaine de ces réactions venues des USA. D’abord, une réaction personnelle venue des États-Unis, qui nous est relayée par une de nos source, et qui représente assez bien une réaction moyenne des Américains partisans de Bush et hostiles à l’Europe, devant l’attitude des Européens refusant les demandes américaines via-OTAN. (Il faut préciser que l’auteur de ce message est un avocat.)

http://tinyurl.com/m9xcrb

Jul 18, 2009 - 2:36 pm 129. OldSalt:

Lifeofthemind- “All those hesitations and errors were a result of obstruction from the Left … The fact is that we must play the hand we are dealt and not kick over the table or go home. Teddy Roosevelt was right. We must stay in the arena.”

That boat has already sailed. When the American people elected the son of a fundamentalist Muslim and a dedicated leftist as President, they effectively repudiated this Country’s military efforts since 9/11. Obviously, many would contest that statement, but Obama has been consistently and diametrically opposed to every military decision – his record is that of a hard-core leftist who opposes any American influence in the world, much less military related excursions.

All those things you say may be true, but it changes nothing. Woulda, shoulda, coulda doesn’t matter; National commitment does. The verdict is in. Americans as a nation will not sacrifice to protect the nation’s interest, even in the face of a direct attack on American soil. Again, we’re not talking about all the hero’s who signed up on 9/11 and went to war, about the willing sacrifices of select Americans; we’re talking about the lack of national will to support the effort.. Without it, America cannot win a war. If one political party is able to make political hay out of the body bags of American soldiers, give support and comfort to the enemy, and then be rewarded with the Senate, House, and Presidency, America is not a credible player “in the arena”, and the blame rests squarely upon the majority of Americans who rewarded the “obstruction from the left” you described. American’s had a choice: Repudiate the obstructionists and traitors; or repudiate the leadership that took them to war. They did the latter. (While some would blame “the media” as well, again, it doesn’t shift responsibility. American outrage could change the way the mainstream media presents “facts”, but as a nation, we accept the leftist slant.)

Our military guys can show up. Our guys can die trying. However, our guys will achieve nothing because they are crippled before they deploy by their American “rulers” (as the Democrats like to call themselves).

America has left the arena, and that departure occurred in November 2008. Our presence on the world stage now is farcical, and both our enemies and friends fully recognize that. America is now a non-serious player.

Regretfully, we stand in fundamental disagreement.

Jul 18, 2009 - 3:38 pm 130. Marie-Claude:

” devant l’attitude des Européens refusant les demandes américaines via-OTAN.”

precisely, the conflict US vs the old Europe came from the divergence of appreciation for the elargement of the EU through Nato without holding in account German and France wish to slow it down.
Isn’t it funny that the EU nations that enthousiasmely followed washington missionary duties were those that just enter into the EU union and Nato

http://www.diploweb.com/forum/ueusaeu.htm

Jul 18, 2009 - 3:54 pm 131. Lifeofthemind:

Old Salt,
There is no doubt that the rot is deep but I would not despair. There are three things I want you to consider. With me it almost always three things, it’s the training.

First while it is probable that a majority of Americans voted for Obama it is not certain given the prevalence of vote fraud. Remember Ohio where multiple students from out of town voted and left the country. Remember Indiana where more votes were counted then people registered. Remember the suppression of the military vote everywhere, especially in Minnesota.

Second it is certain that a sizable number of the people who voted for Obama really did not know what they were getting. That may be incredible to those of us who follow these issues over time and it does not speak well for the quality of the voters who allow themselves to be bamboozled by the media. It is better then saying that a majority actually believes in and wants an impoverished weakened America in a world ruled by Dictators.

Finally the election of Obama was not achieved by the swelling of his support among the young or the Democrats. He was elected because large numbers of Republicans and Conservatives stayed home. The left worked hard to divide the right and suppress the vote and they succeeded. The blogs were full of screeds usually initiated by Moby agents but then repeated by Republicans who should have known better, that McCain was just a RINO and that they would go fishing on election day or would write in Ron Paul.

The “objective effect” to use a term from the left of your counsel to write of America and retreat into survivalist mode would be to multiply the future victories of the totalitarians. So keep doing the hard work, visit High School kids and old folks and political meetings and keep spreading a good message about America. Keep swinging and get out there, get to work.

Jul 18, 2009 - 4:13 pm 132. reg:

Marie-Claude

“Isn’t it funny that the EU nations that enthousiasmely followed washington missionary duties were those that just enter into the EU union and Nato”

Tragic actually, they are well experienced with the established western european powers.I suppose they were hoping for the US of 1945, not the American Idol generation.

Jul 18, 2009 - 4:24 pm 133. NahnCee:

I support Eastern Europe and would go to the matt for them in a confrontation with Putin’s Russia.

I do *not* support France, and giggle a lot every time their Muslim “youth” act up and start rioting and arsoning. Note Marie-Claire’s automatic name-calling about “neo-con’s” when France’s most recent perfidies are pointed out. The French are on their own and I *really* don’t give a tinker’s damn what happens to the whole cesspit.

Equally, Germany is on its own, also, and can sink or swim by itself. Achtung, Hans.

And I’m not real thrilled about England, either, and would be disinclined to send blood or money to their rescue again — although the increasing denunciations of Brown are heartwarming.

Oddly enough, just as Mexico gets weirder and more anarchaic, Canada seems to be tilting more and more into an American-ally mode.

But you know what? We have *such* a disaster here in America with Obama as President and dealing with his various nefariousnesses that the rest of the world is just going to have to stagger along on their own while we focus internally. Unfortunately, that will also include Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Wouldn’t it be a total shame if someone were to take out the nuclear programs of both Iran and Pakistan while our State Department and CIA’s attention were directed inward on the internal chess game going on in DC … not.

Jul 18, 2009 - 4:32 pm 134. Lifeofthemind:

Dave,
Trade links between the US and Canada are important but not determinant.
In 1914 the two largest trading partners in the world were the British and German empires.

Jul 18, 2009 - 4:53 pm 135. Lifeofthemind:

reg,
MC is that fortunately rare example of someone who started out as a quirky but engaging member of our discussion but who has since slid into being a tiresome polemicist, posting long screeds in a language not common to the community. It is as if you were to go into a restaurant in Paris and expect everyone to understand and respond obsequiously if you yelled at them in German. Come to think of it if it wasn’t for the Americans they would. In the past I defended them but my patience is not up to it now. It would be nice if they took this correction to heart and rejoined the conversation in a civil manner but the references to “Neocons” and fractured fragments of Franglish, when speaking seriously they showed no such verbal infelicity, indicate to me that they have other agendas.
Please do not feed the Troll.

Jul 18, 2009 - 5:05 pm 136. GerryP:

geoffgo @ 114

Thank you, thank you for that link. It caused an overpowering response that “There are more of us than I thought!” Beautiful, wonderful video. From my heart, thank you.

Jul 18, 2009 - 5:17 pm 137. Marie-Claude:

None see,

A Grasshopper gay
Sang the summer away,
And found herself poor

By the winter’s first roar.
Of meat or of bread,
Not a morsel she had!

So a begging she went,
To her neighbour the ant,
For the loan of some wheat,
Which would serve her to eat,
Till the season came round.

‘I will pay you,’ she saith,
‘On an animal’s faith,
Double weight in the pound
Ere the harvest be bound.’

The ant is a friend
(And here she might mend)
Little given to lend.
‘How spent you the summer?’
Quoth she, looking shame
At the borrowing dame.

‘Night and day to each comer
I sang, if you please.’

‘You sang! I’m at ease;
For ’tis plain at a glance,
Now, ma’am, you must dance.

Jean de La Fontaine

yeah, you support the eastern republics like an ant, cuz didn’t hear your voice when they had trouble this wiinter, not a nickel for the poor ol grasshoppers, that sang “we’re all livin with America”

uh, we didn’t care of your support since a long time ago, beside you past your time to f**k France

Jul 18, 2009 - 5:27 pm 138. Marie-Claude:

Life, what a piece of verbouse anthology LMAO
but it shows nonentheless you’re a well intentionned spirit towards us, you would never defend sumthin french unless it is cooking, cuz you want to show that you are more inspired than us, sorry, but it’s void !

and thank you for the german allusion, but Americans did shout “I want my breakfast, RIGHT NOW” while Germans would say Bitte ! LMAO

Jul 18, 2009 - 5:35 pm 139. Dave:

LOTM: Yes, I knew that about the German-English trade volume. I threw in the US-Canada bit just to illustrate that while
“neutrality” is easy to say, it is darned difficult to actually arrange.

To have avoided involvement in and taking sides in WWI, the USA would have had to blockade itself and enter into phsyical isolationism.

Then, once the European fracas got settled,
somebody else would have lifted the blockade for us and proceeded to arrange our affairs as they saw fit. We would have had nothing with which to stop them.

I just wish people would stop thinking that
they can command an avoidance of war. Fat chance of that as well, I guess.

Jul 18, 2009 - 7:47 pm 140. Tcobb:

Marie-Claude
Don’t worry about us foolish Americans. The next time things get ugly in Europe I don’t think there will be anybody in the USA who would really care to lift a finger to get involved. We will let you Wise Europeans deal with european
problems. Just like what was done in Bosnia. The EU handled it all so well.

Jul 18, 2009 - 8:05 pm 141. Lifeofthemind:

Dave,
Concur, all choices, including Voting Present, have consequences.
Just hope that my Grandfather did not get wounded at Château-Thierry in the expectation of gratitude.
It was 91 years ago today.

Jul 18, 2009 - 8:09 pm 142. buddy larsen:

Few realize, more Americans fell in WWI than Vietnam and Korea combined. Amis came in late but came in big.

Jul 18, 2009 - 8:32 pm 143. Kinuachdrach:

LOTM wrote: “… while it is probable that a majority of Americans voted for Obama …”

There is room for doubt about whether Obama actually got the majority of the votes cast, but there is complete certainty that Obama did not get the votes of the majority of Americans. In very round numbers, 1/3 of citizens voted for Obama, 1/3 voted for someone else, and 1/3 chose not to vote.

Elections since Watergate have been won & lost on the Republican side. The Democrats always get their reliable tribal vote, but that is all they get. Once in a while, the Republicans put up a Reagan and some of those non-voters come out & vote. The rest of the time, the Republicans put up a Dole or a McCain, and the Contingent Voters stay home.

But the future of our society should not depend on the Republican Party putting up a real candidate for President. The underlying problem is that our system of governance has broken down. Anyone who wants to be elected is almost by definition not representative of the voters. So we end up with an “elected” Congress which is thoroughly unrepresentative – but which has the power to destroy the country.

War is coming, and unfortunately it is going to end in civil war. US political leaders have no more credibility with a large part of the US population than Iranian mullahs have with a large part of their own. An international crisis may start the ball rolling, but it is going to end up with people at their neighbors’ throats all around the world. This is going to be nasty.

The question is — how do we preserve the knowledge of what has worked & what has not, and make sure it gets passed on to the human beings who energe from the other side of the coming conflict?

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:01 pm 144. whiskey:

I disagree that nukes do small nations no good, and cite Pakistan and Israel as examples. Pakistan makes all sorts of mischief for India, acts of war, and India backs down because it’s afraid of the nukes. Even though it’s nuclear arsenal is much bigger and it’s population, territory, and army much bigger.

Same, in the essentials, with Israel. Which has a nuclear guarantee and Samson in the Temple against military defeat conventionally.

Not even Putin would risk Moscow to take Warsaw. Advantage goes to the upstart nuclear countries that keep their nukes.

Nor does Obama and Europe or Putin have any leverage. What, they’re going to invade Poland and the Czech Republic to allow Putin to take them over? Because that is what it will take. Leaders of these nations are not stupid. They know a Putin-run regime means most of the money and power flows to Moscow not to Warsaw or Prague. Which means they have a built-in incentive to nuke up, as quickly as possible, and tell Putin to go hang, they’ll launch and be damned, rather than submit.

It worked for Pakistan. It worked for Israel. It will work for others. Particularly since the gamble for Putin means that he has to win everything, otherwise he loses everything. There’s no muddling through. Even a “win” over Poland and the Czech Republic, with troops in Warsaw and Prague, with a nuked Moscow and St. Petersburg means the risk of an ambitious General simply stringing him up from the nearest tree and taking power himself. No toleration for that level of bungling, with about 25% of the military having relatives in those cities.

As for High Noon, a fantasy of the West. Most Westerners had little toleration for bad men and robberies, witness the end of the James-Younger gang when the Northfield Minnesota raid ended in disaster, with the townsfolk shooting them to pieces during Deer Season with their rifles. Not what they expected.

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:23 pm 145. Marie-Claude:

Tcobb,

you’re kidding,

“Just like what was done in Bosnia. The EU handled it all so well.”

Madeleine so bright was too impatient to bomb “evil” Serbs, d’ya know why? her good ol friend, Al Soro, wanted to buy at a lower price gold mines from t’em, and of course to set a big american base in Bosnia, umm very useful for the transit to Bagdad

If the people had let the Balkanians solve their conflict alone, there would not be that threat of muslims mafias ingerence in EU, but I guess Carter started the job 2 decennies fefore

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:27 pm 146. Marie-Claude:

life

“Just hope that my Grandfather did not get wounded at Château-Thierry in the expectation of gratitude”

why do you always expect gratitude for a pay-back that came 150 years after that the French got under the bus of Washington ?

umm, hope your grandfather appreciated the “Brie” from Château-Thierry
though

and you’re unjust, visit the american cemeteries from the 2 WW if they aren’t well maintained !

Can’t say that for the French that lost their life during your independance war

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:36 pm 147. George Bruce:

I doubt that Obama sees any rights of the people of Eastern Europe that he feels bound to respect.

Jul 18, 2009 - 9:58 pm 148. buddy larsen:

GB/147; the NWO map looks different than the familiar, so-called ‘political’ map we call ‘the map’.

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:12 pm 149. buddy larsen:

This fella John Mauldin may be familiar to you who watch the biz cables –Fox, anyway, where he appears from time to time. He’s a pretty fair analyst, not least because he has good sources and knows what to look fer. Anyway, no discussion of Europe 2009 should be without the charts he’s put up here. Warning; not for the faint-of-heart. Especially re Dollar, the pie chart on page 8, “sovereign debt issuance for 2009″. And be sure and read the next page, 9, the conclusion –in waxing a bit philosophical, it restores the nerves somewhat.

http://www.frontlinethoughts.com/pdf/mwo071709.pdf

Jul 18, 2009 - 10:54 pm 150. CPT. Charles:

This just in…

http://babalublog.com/2009/07/a-page-out-of-the-chavez-leftist-in-other-words-playbook/

O/T, I suppose, but still note worthy.

Jul 19, 2009 - 12:25 am 151. JFSanders031:

@124. RCM: “I am left wondering how Judaism, equally hindered by man’s obstinacy, does it better?

I am of the opinion it is because of Judaism’s lack of active Proselytizing and recruitment of new members and the lack of active retainment of those who choose to leave for whatever reason.

@126. SJN: “I think you should be more scared of the Russians and Chinese buying up all those big gorgeous foreclosures up the street from your retirement home in Florida than tanks rolling into Talinn or Warsaw…

Actually, the Russians and Chinese should be scared of the fact that imminent domain was overturned by the USSC in Kelo v. Connecticut…

And all of their labor and investment is hanging at the whim and fancy of a bunch of immature teenagers…

@135. LotM: They would understand his German yelling, but would not respond in kind as they think it beneath them to speak the bastard tongues… But rest assured the Vichy progeny are alive and well in the land of the sun king.

@150. CPT. Charles: Thanks for the link! Can you vouch for his veracity?

Jul 19, 2009 - 2:33 am 152. buddy larsen:

CPT. Charles/150;
(snip from link)

“…these computers, according to the news report, contained the official and certified results of the illegal constitutional referendum Zelaya wanted to conduct that never took place. The results of this fraudulent vote was tilted heavily in Zelaya’s favor, ensuring he could go ahead and illegally change the constitution so he could remain in power for as long as he wanted to. ACORN, I’m sure, is taking notes.”

“This is the man that the OAS, the UN, and the Obama State Department want the Honduran people to reinstall as their leader.”

If this isn’t a total, complete, utter, mindf**k, it’ll do ’til one comes along.

Jul 19, 2009 - 3:17 am 153. JFSanders031:

Good morning Mr. Larsen. What is your take on the CIT implosion? Was this another case of GE getting payback from the 0? And will the fallout be felt or mitigated?

Jul 19, 2009 - 3:37 am 154. M. Simon:

In ten years Russia will not have a Navy:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/07/sinking-russian-fleet.html

What is the Russian thinking? The Army has always been based more on mass than finesse. Their logistics good for short jumps not bypass. So what is their strategy: the same as the Austrian Corporal. First reduce or eliminate the will to resist. They have to jump soon. They are a power in decline. China will some day eat their lunch.

The other thing to consider is the recent Old Europe’s lurch to the right.

How will it all work out? TBD.

Jul 19, 2009 - 4:12 am 155. Dave:

Buddy, read the Maudlin piece. He seems to have his head screwed on pretty straight.

Illustrates why I am sticking to predictions of deflation ahead, not inflation.

Here at home, two stats grabbed my attention: (1) Credit card balances outstanding declined in Dec of 2008. Normally, Christmas season means that even those folks who pay off their plastic every month wind up with balances at the end of Dec since bills do not roll in until Jan. So declining Dec balances sure meant less demand.

And in Jun 2009, Visa reported more sales on debit cards than on credit cards. The people are getting rid of excess leverage just as fast as they can.

They are a lot smarter than the government.

Jul 19, 2009 - 4:25 am 156. M. Simon:

Obama has been rolled and he knows it:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/2009/07/a_fair_shake.html

Jul 19, 2009 - 4:35 am

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