255 Comments

1. MTL:

W: “Some may argue that the United States, being more powerful than Russia, should concede more to keep the sacrifices equivalent”

Sounds like proportional sacrifice, which we hear variations on everyday. “You’re richer than I am, so you should contribute more to the greater good…” Just another way of spreading the international wealth.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:43 am 2. Marcus Aurelius:

Last night on the Fox All Stars Charles K (IIRC) went on how this was a really raw deal for us, but conceded, if there is some sort of cycnical (his word not mine) backroom deal for help on Iran it may, just may, help there. Interestingly enough Mort Kondracke agreed 100% with Charles.

I see absolutely nothing being gained by the move. I can hardly think Russia would back away from its Iranian ally. So, do we have a Venezuelan Missile Crisis coming at us?

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:45 am 3. steveaz:

“What exactly did President Obama gain by conceding the planned missile defense system based in Eastern Europe to the Russians?”

What was achieved is, the next American President who ramps up the defensive shield will be accused of “escalating tensions,” which, in the global Left’s opinion is a casus belli. Put another way without the Latin, Obama has made it harder for the next American President to reassert a barrier to Russian imperialism in the future.

BTW, if you add accusations of “American aggression” to “endemic racism” (which will follow from any attempt to disallow illegal immigrants from voting)*, you’ve got a two-point rationalization for sanctions, terrorist attacks, military invasion – or all three, in the minds of the “earnest” UN-ocrats.

Gee. Thanks, Obama.
-S
* Wasn’t it Joe Biden who, prior to being nominated in 2007, fingered “silent racism” as one of America’s ills. Gawd, where do the Communists Democrats find these people?

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:31 am 4. Marie Claude:

“Rasmussen calls for integrated Russia, US, NATO missile system

A day after Washington announced it was abandoning plans for a missile shield in Europe, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the US, NATO and Russia should consider integrating their missile defence plans. ”

http://www.france24.com/en/20090918-rasmussen-russia-us-nato-integrate-missile-systems-shield-europe

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:32 am 5. Annoy Mouse:

It should be no surprise that the common thread between Russia, Iran, and Venezuela is that they are all oil producers that are ideologically opposed to the United States. They have money to spend on weapons and Russia is pleased to provide them with all they need while offering a palpable threat to anyone who would threaten their clients. Any interruption of the oil, be it embargos or war, only drive the price of oil up as we saw last summer and Russia’s stance will do whatever they can to achieve that as a goal. If Israel were to attack Iran, something I still see as unlikely, the price for oil would go through the roof. It is a similar situation in Venezuela if for some reason we were to blockade them. I do not see a down side for Russia in this except that they have to be prepared to live in a world of ubiquitous nuclear proliferation and this is something that I think the Russian mind set is already prepared for.

If peace through strength works so well, maybe peace through vulnerability will work better.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:40 am 6. dan:

Oh goody, then the GRU can infiltrate missile defense even more easily.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:45 am 7. Urban B:

And if the Russians don’t follow through, what then? Making attempts at concession with tyrants is worrisome to be sure, but the response to broken deals is where the rubber meets the road.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:45 am 8. wretchard:

Reuters says “NATO hits “reset” button, belatedly”

For the moment, the West has settled for a de facto status quo in which NATO takes no decisive action to bring Ukraine and Georgia into the alliance. But Moscow is trying to turn back the status quo further by recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, establishing or expanding military bases there, getting rid of OSCE monitors from Abkhazia, and conducting a campaign of pressure on Ukraine over gas, trade and the Russian Black Sea fleet.

In Russian eyes, this is not just about preventing former Soviet republics from joining NATO but rolling back the “color revolutions” that brought pro-Western forces to power in its “near abroad.”

* Rasmussen’s speech doesn’t resolve NATO’s internal divide over relations with Russia. Coupled with Obama’s decision to scrap the missile shield bases in Poland and the Czech Republic, it will leave those allies in central and eastern Europe that are physically closest to Russia and Ukraine feeling more vulnerable to Russian bullying. …

Rasmussen’s move may have been mainly a courtesy and part of a Western effort to get Russia back to the Conventional Forces in Europe treaty and to a more constructive role in the OSCE. But it may be regarded with suspicion by the central European allies.

The central problem here is that there are a variety of short-term incentives to undermine Europe’s long term security. Satisfying gas deals and anti-Americanism can’t conceal the fact that Western Europe only to a lesser extent than Eastern Europe, is dependent on US strength. If Russia succeeds in rolling back the “color revolutions”, Western Europe will be in a weaker position in the next iteration.

They will only be better off if the line is held; if the Kremlin sticks punctiliously to its end of the bargain, and a stable thus-and-no-further positions vis a vis Russia is reached. But having won so far, why should Putin cash in his chips and go home? Why not roll the dice again? If the Europeans are betting the game is over, that’s a bet which I think they’ll lose. But so what? Our dear Western leaders are often content to kick the can down the road in exchange for a few years in power. I suppose we are all dead in the long run but politicians emphasize the short term in the extreme. Crooks are like that; they have a great deal of appetite for immediate gratification.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:45 am 9. Mark Razak:

“Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was to meet Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev on Friday after Russia risked Washington’s wrath by offering the fierce US foe help developing nuclear energy.”

Washington’s wrath? Really? Other than in meaningless words that our Donk elite have NO intention of EVER backing up, this statement is laughable considering O’s attempt to cuddle up to Chavez. The Donk elite consider Chavez, like their heartthrob Castro, an authentic Latin American leader while holding Uribe in utter contempt. In fact, in other than in tactics, how does O differ from Chavez in long term goals?

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:45 am 10. Annoy Mouse:

and of course it dawned on me that these missile defense systems were pawns in a poorly played game all along. With the situation being as pathetic as it is, it is no wonder that it leaves many guessing that some underlying genius of a plan has been laid just under the surface. But backroom deals are the easiest to abandon.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:50 am 11. marymcl:

Apart from anything else, what I take from all this (especially the second part and Rasmussen’s remarks about “cooperation”) is that the people in charge of the western world accept Iranian nukes as a done deal. Which is to say that they have abandoned the cause of non-proliferation, despite any public posturing to the contrary.

On the other hand, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the Obama administration hasn’t thought that much about it.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:57 am 12. RE:

What was achieved?

Well in one action, Obama communicated to all our allies that America is not trustworthy.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:59 am 13. Fen:

Again, to paraphrase Manchester: Obama would barter his soul to the Devil for the promise of future negotiations on it.

Maybe if we give Putin a free hand in Gerogia, we’ll get a photo op.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:06 am 14. Bohica:

I can remember only one substantial occassion where it was the U.S. upping the ante and controlling the table with the Russians. SDI was a master stroke in foreign diplmacy which effectively put the Russians on their heels. It did, of course, set the left howling stateside but that was to be expected (sigh).

Where is our next Reagan…

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:06 am 15. Jeff:

Since Israel is gonna bomb Iran by Hallowe’en at this rate, i can see Obama’s point in trying to fend off that (won’t work) by getting Russia to lean harder on Ahmadinny — the real worry being that they’ll fire off a missile at Israel, and kill two million in Amman instead. Truly, i think that’s the worst-case scenario that really has Hillary and the Foggy Bottom Brokedowners in a midnight sweat right now.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:08 am 16. Lifeofthemind:

Russia risked Washington’s wrath
That is the knee slapper line of the day.

Rasmussen calls for integrated Russia, US, NATO missile system
Why not add China to the control system and put the whole thing under the UN Security Council?
We can have an incredibly sophisticated and complex universal defense system that will defend against nobody.

In fact I will now predict that a follow on to the Global Warming enthusiasm will be the Rogue Asteroid scare. We will face demands that we respond to an urgent global threat from outer space that can only be faced with a united world effort by placing our space and missile defense systems under the supervision of a body that represents all of humanity, plus Cass Sunstein’s furry, finny or creepy friends.

Once again reality is ahead of me. A Youtube search of “asteroid threat” indicates that both sides are hyperventilating on this. The Globalists like the BBC are taking it seriously and the anti-globalists take it seriously as a wedge for another power grab. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_EZfxvTmNA

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:16 am 17. Eric Hines:

Wretchard writes, in part, “They [Western Europe] will only be better off if the line is held; that is, a stable thus-and-no-further positions vis-a-vis Russia is reached.”

But who will hold that line? Let’s review the recent record.
1. The Rus’ invade Georgia. The US, first under Mr Bush, and now under Mr Obama, accede to the Sudetenland-like partition of Georgia.
2. Mr Obama embarks on his world apology tour, saying we were wrong to be so aggressive in our protection of our national security and that of our allies. In the course of this tour, Mr Obama renounces US leadership, saying we’re just one of twenty.
3. Mr Obama, through his cabinet, engages in repeated rounds of very firm finger wagging and strong talk in response to repeated Iranian and northern Korean provocations, which were part of Mr Biden’s predicted “tests” of a neophyte and naive President.
4. Mr Obama dithers over whether pirates holding an American citizen hostage were legitimate targets.
5. Mr Obama, through his cabinet, declares that there no acts of terrorism, only man-made catastrophes. The destruction of the World Trade Center, the damage to the Pentagon, the attempt against the White House, thus, are no different from a bridge collapse in northern Minnesota.
6. Mr Obama, through his cabinet, declares an end to the War on Terror and begins overseas contingency operations in their place as the opening move of his retreat of America from its global commitments.
7. Mr Obama, apparently unilaterally–I’ve seen no evidence that he consulted with Poland or The Czech Republic, much less the US Congress–betrays Poland and The Czech Republic to the Rus’ by withdrawing from the missile shield agreement with these two erstwhile sovereign nations.

Mr Obama’s abject, unconditional surrender to Czar Putin on this short, silent war of pressures simply consigns Eastern Europe–explicitly including The Ukraine and Georgia–to the slavery of the Rus’ from which they’d so recently begun to see a hope of delivery. It guarantees that the Rus’ will continue to demand concessions, until we have nuclear weapons in Cuba and in Venezuela and a nuclear-armed Iran and northern Korea (although PRC obstructionism plays a serious role here–but why should they take us seriously? All we’re going to do is talk.). The difference between now and the neophyte JFK’s time is that there is no one in Mr Obama’s coterie with the courage to face down the Rus’. Or The People’s Republic of China.

Mr Obama’s idle chit-chat in the place of concrete deeds is simply a cover for his leading the scrambling retreat of the US from the world. Why should our enemies fear us, or our friends and allies trust us, when all Mr Obama has the courage to do is to talk–not to act? Why should anyone respect us? Others here have written of appeasement. I hear echos, not only of Chamberlain, but of Quisling, also.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:19 am 18. ADE:

But consider it this way.

A few posts back, we were wondering about English exceptionalism, why the Anglosphere had achieved radically different outcomes in its sphere of influence.

Here’s my theory. Through utter contempt for the lower classes; the English aristocacy let the peasants play. Let them free. Becuse they didn’t matter.

Immoral, but it worked.

Now is the time for the World’s aristocracy (America) to let the peasants (Putin, Chavez) play. Such peasants won’t achieve anything, so what does it matter if they strut and fret their hour upon the stage. When was the last time an iAnything came out of Russia? Why, oh why, oh why does a physically, moraly, intellectually, economically… prick like Chavez even begin to exercise our brain power?

Obama might be a shit, but there is a time for tweeds on the moors when you know you can blast the peasants out of existence.

Speak softly and carry a big stick. Of all the people who know this, Omighty knows.

ADE

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:20 am 19. Nullification:

“America is not trustworthy”, only temporarily. We are being Putinized, the objective has always been to take over the control of U.S. govt. by a criminal interprise. The old canard of socializm/progressivism as a goal is simply a clumsy head fake. Acorn is the model and the apple cart is about to be tipped.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:30 am 20. E Hines:

“Now is the time for the World’s aristocracy (America) to let the peasants (Putin, Chavez) play. Such peasants won’t achieve anything,….”

No, the peasants Hitler and Mao didn’t achieve anything. Those were only Jews and Chinese. Nor did peasant Stalin. These were only Ukrainians and White Russians. Only now, there is no one capable (capability must include will) of standing against the peasants Putin, Chavez, Ahmadinajad, Kim, or Hu. What are these capable of, with the unfettered hand just given to them? Not much? Just the butchery of 100s of millions and the enslavement of the survivors.

What’s the value of a big stick when the whole world knows the holder hasn’t the ability to use it?

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:37 am 21. ADE:

E Hines

Hitler wrecked Germany, England, France, possibly forever.

Mao delayed the emergence of China as a (possible) superpower for 30 years.

Stalin wrecked Russia, and Russia does not have the culture to amount to anything in the modern world.

My position on Obama is this. He knows that:

Prop 1: you need to get the population on your side.
Prop 2: he knows how to do this – make nice, draw in, then pounce
Prop 3: soft speaking is his trap. As he’s done to America, he’s now doing to the world.

Prop 2 is ’speak softly and carry a big stick’.

Obama might well not be American, but he seems to read the rest of the world pretty well, as long as he pulls the next trick:

Prop 4: Spring the trap: “Now you owe me”.

I think it’s called Chicago, and I’m certain that he will do this. I’m equally certain that his mates in Iran, Russia, Venuzuela, Saudia Rabia (of the bow) know this too.

Remember – to most of the world, the American Constitution is a foreign country. And to Obama, it is. But the rest of the world is not a foreign country to Omighty.

ADE

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:08 am 22. exhelodrvr:

We’re not more powerful than Russia in their neighborhood, though. Think Georgia.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:10 am 23. steveaz:

marymcl @11

“[T]he people in charge of the western world [...] have abandoned the cause of non-proliferation[...]”

Some bright person should try to write the “readers digest version” of the history of the Non-Proliferation Treaty someday. Anachronistic parties, like the “non-aligned movement,” the intractable “disarmament” movement, and our own national “pacifists” will have to figure prominently in the history.

It’s just a feeling, Mary, but I’ll bet my eye tooth that the same people who fought tooth and nail to enact it are now busy undermining it.

Again..it’s just a feeling.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:19 am 24. marymcl:

re ADE @21

That’s all very clever and conspiratorial, but what exactly does it amount to? When Obama says “Now you owe me”, what do you imagine he’s demanding? And when “the rest of the world”, tells him to go bite the wall, as they surely will, what then? When push comes to shove, personal charisma doesn’t go much farther than the mirror.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:25 am 25. marymcl:

steveaz@23

Oh yes, I do agree!

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:27 am 26. Trent Telenko:

>What exactly did President Obama gain by
>conceding the planned missile defense system
>based in Eastern Europe to the Russians?

Proving Pres. Obama has the same foreign policy as Pres. Jimmy Carter, AKA,
“The only people who American Foreign Polcy pays attention to are those who can deliver deadly threats to or cause political pain for American foreign policy.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:31 am 27. E Hines:

Mr Obama is a poor shadow of Chicago machine politics. Richard Daley the Elder knew machine politics. And he knew that a city boy, who knew only this city in particular, was not qualified to walk the world stage.

Mr Obama’s big stick is not American might–he’s squandered that, just as Chamberlain squandered England’s (or was that an attempt to ‘make nice, draw in, then pounce?’) and Quisling squandered Norway’s–it’s his Czar of Strong Arm, Rahm Emanuel–who is no more capable outside of Chicago than is Mr Obama. And that assumes either have the courage actually to act.

How much American might will Mr Obama sacrifice–ground we’ve already fought over and won, and now must fight over again–while he’s setting his trap? I suggest too much, just as did Mr Chamberlain.

And what will Mr Obama do when he hollers, “Now you owe me,” and Putin, et al. say, “Yeah, and…?” On what basis does Mr Obama think (assuming you’re right and Mr Obama has this Nixonian I-have-a-plan plot running) these worthies will play by Chicago rules?

That assumes Mr Obama has the courage or integrity even to try to collect. I don’t think he does.

Lastly, Mr Obama’s citizenship status is a tired canard of a red herring. He’s as American as I am. Oh, wait–there’s faint support. I’m an unpatriotic, swastika-carrying, right-wing extremist of a military veteran who disagrees with Mr Obama.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:44 am 28. ADE:

marymcl

Excellent questions.

“Now you owe me” Obama is demanding his price for one’s love of him. One loved him because he wasn’t Bush. One loved him because he wasn’t white. One loved him because he wore his shirt sleves turned up, was thin. Of all, one loved him for his articulateness.

But he was the tempter; in the morning, saying “Did you really mean what you said last night?” Oh dear, the price of a quickie being demanded.

What do I imagine he’s demanding? At face value, he’s demanding my expressions of gratefullness. But he’s smart, he knows I’ll lie. No matter, he’ll have it on video where I used the words. Then he’ll blackmail me.

So, to coin a phrase, he’s sucked one in.

Now let’s go global. Let’s go to the most hapless place on the Planet, Iran.

Says Obama: “Amadijajan, you’re great, love you madly, you OK for tonight?”. That public quickie over, the press conference confirms the mutual joy. But sadly their love is not consumated; Amaj is out of love because his own clerics have forbidden man love with an American.

This is were Obama springs his greatest trap. Having offered the hand of friendship only to find it repudiated, he will now get re-elected in the US for his “tough stance on rogue regimes as the US public rallies behind the President”.

So the rest of the world will not tell him to bite the wall, they’re in on it too.

Personal charisma does not go much further than a mirror, but public commitment goes a long way. For us poor mortals devoid of personal charisma, public commitment is called marriage. I’ve gone 39 years.

ADE

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:12 am 29. ADE:

E Hines
And what will Mr Obama do when he hollers, “Now you owe me,” and Putin, et al. say, “Yeah, and…?”

E, he expects to be repudiated. Don’t you get it? The best way for a hapless American to be re-elected is to have external enemies who have rejected the new Messiah.

ADE

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:26 am 30. Josh:

Lot of uncertainties on all sides here.

I want to hear SoS and SoD talk about this, and other administration spokespersons.

At first glance it still stinks, but just maybe it makes sense.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:28 am 31. Charles:

Putin Seeks Trade Concessions After U.S. Missile Move (Update1)

By Paul Abelsky and Lyubov Pronina

Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) — Prime Minister Vladimir Putin called for trade concessions, including an end to restrictions on technology transfers to Russia, following U.S. President Barack Obama’s decision to abandon a missile shield in Europe.

“I’m counting on other decisions to follow this correct and brave decision, including the complete elimination of restrictions on cooperation with Russia and on transfers of high technology to Russia as well as an intensification of World Trade Organization expansion to include Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan,” Putin said at a business forum in Sochi today.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:33 am 32. Uncle Jefe:

“But he was the tempter; in the morning, saying “Did you really mean what you said last night?” Oh dear, the price of a quickie being demanded.”
And the answer?
“Get the hell out of my house. No, I won’t be calling you.”

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:41 am 33. Tom Holsinger:

This was about domestic politics, not national security. Obama is in serious domestic political trouble so he threw a bone to his leftist base. National security as such is not really in his frame of reference.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:44 am 34. E Hines:

“This is were Obama springs his greatest trap. Having offered the hand of friendship only to find it repudiated, he will now get re-elected in the US for his ‘tough stance on rogue regimes as the US public rallies behind the President’.” That’s just it. He has no tough stance. He has only his penchant for idle conversation and his demonstrated pell-mell retreat. Who will rally around these?

And this all assumes that everyone else will play by his Chicago rules. Or any rules at all. “But he was the tempter; in the morning, saying ‘Did you really mean what you said last night?’” And losing the game to his betters: “No, I didn’t mean a thing I said to you last night. What are you offering today?” And asking, not in the privacy of the breakfast room, but loudly, at mid-morning, on the balcony. Oh dear, the price of the quickie being given.

Only Mr Obama views himself as the new Messiah. A shrinking number of Americans, and members of his own party, take him seriously at all, except for the damage he’s doing. The American population is rejecting the new Messiah, just as we did early on his Messianic predecessor Mr Carter. Mr Carter’s damage took lots of years to undo. The problem is that we’re stuck with Mr Obama for 3 1/2 more years, and on his present course, he will do far greater damage to our country.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:48 am 35. buckets:

LOTM,

I understand the logical connection between global warming hysteria as the basis for a power grab by Leftists and the “asteroid threat” scaremongering as a similar basis. I mean, really, the probability of a catastrophic asteroid impacting the earth is about zero.

BUT

The probability may be close to zero, but it’s not zero. And that’s all well and good, until the probability increases to 1. Michael Bay’s “Armageddon” was a fictional blockbuster movie, but I believe there is a basis for the concern. I wouldn’t be opposed to some sort of an informal cooperation among space-faring nations, even China and Russia. The question is how do that w/o revealing national security secrets and/or involving the Washington DC bureaucracy in the whole process.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:50 am 36. always right:

OK, it is a ‘done deal’. Mr. Obama probably came out this round with nothing gained but lots of consternation.

What, where and how is the ‘damage control’?

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:54 am 37. buckets:

And come on – let’s not fool ourselves into thinking Obama is wielding the big stick while he talks soft. He may eventually wield the big stick, I will grant you, but only after being backed into a corner by his own weakness and incompetence – U.S. haplessness having emboldened our adversaries enough to become aggressive and expansionist.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:59 am 38. ADE:

Eric

Obama is playing the card that got him where he is today – the victim card.

It is so ingrained in his thinking that he is also doing it on the international stage, on behalf of America. He’s expecting the same benefits – tough sh.t on that one, because the rest of the world’s less exhaulted regimes have had much more experience playing the victim.

This is what has upset America.

ADE

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:06 am 39. Neil Craig:

“What exactly did President Obama gain by conceding the planned missile defense system”

Well if you assume that Russia & the USA are inevitably & enternaly locked in combat then nothing except maybe saving some money.

However if you say that there is no real clash of interests now, America having nothing to gain by the ethnic cleansing of Ossetia then there is an awful lot to gain.

Russia has more reason not to want Iran to have nukes than the US has but America’s picking a fight at all opportinities has made them sympathetic to Iran.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:10 am 40. Lifeofthemind:

buckets,
I generally concur with your position and I also support real research on biodiversity and climatology, neither of which should send a dime to Al Gore.

Regarding the threat of Iranian missiles the promise of future deployments of sea based interceptors is a red herring. I like sea based systems and want more of them and for countering the threat from North Korea they show real promise but if you look at a map then they just don’t work in the Iranian case.

The correct response to the Iranian threat was the one put out by McCain.
1) Develop every domestic energy source, Alaskan, Coal, Offshore, Nuclear, Shale and exotic.
2) Strengthen links with America’s allies, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Australia and Eastern Europe.
3) Isolate and destabilize the Iranian regime.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:11 am 41. Eggplant:

buckets said:

“The probability [asteroid threat] may be close to zero, but it’s not zero. And that’s all well and good, until the probability increases to 1.”

The way you calculate “expectation value” is to multiply the potential loss times the probability of the loss occurring. For example, if your house is worth $300,000 and the probability per year of your house burning down is 0.1% then spending $300 per year on fire insurance is a good bet. Now try to calculate the expectation value of an asteroid impact. The potential loss (everyone dies) is effectively infinity. However the probability of the loss happening is almost zero. The expectation value is:

0 * infinity

What’s the value of that?

Answer: Any number that you like [it's undefined].

Same reasoning applies towards the extremist view on global warming.

It’s exactly the sort of “logic” that a moonbat can sink its teeth into.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:32 am 42. E Hines:

“Obama is playing the card that got him where he is….It is so ingrained in his thinking….” On this we agree completely. Unfortunately the damage he’s doing still is real and long-lasting.

“…but America’s picking a fight at all opportinities has made them sympathetic to Iran.” So, if defending my house and family whenever thugs attack or threaten to attack, or trying to keep barbarians unarmed every time they try to pick up a gun to use against me, is picking fights at all opportunities, then I say I’ll pick every fight. And they’ll all be as unfair and uneven as I can make them.

I also disagree with the thesis that the Rus’ have more to lose with a nuclear Iran than without. They get, however minimal, a new buffer state; they get what they failed to get with their barbarity in Afghanistan, a southern warm water seaport; and they get what they’ll always jump at the chance for, a stick in the US’ eye.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:36 am 43. Whitehall:

We’ve pushed Poland to their only remaining security option – become a nuclear weapon state.

Between allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons, refusing to provide defensive systems, and withdrawing strategic political support, the US has abandoned the non-proliferation regime. One can argue that it couldn’t last forever, but the end is near.

Poland has the cultural and scientific resources to develop their own nukes. The purposes will be purely defensive. NATO is worthless – where in history could one find German boys dying to protect Polish freedom? Nuclear warheads makes Poland a very bitter pill.

Of course, the main anti-ballistic missile system in Poland and Czechland were not intended to protect against Russia but to intercept Iranian missiles against the US and Western Europe. Local Patriot batteries offered were to protect Poland – were they affected?

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:39 am 44. always right:

33. Tom Holsinger
Obama is in serious domestic political trouble so he threw a bone to his leftist base.

And his leftist base has no other principle than ‘opposite of Bush’.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:47 am 45. Josh:

Actually, the expectation of the earth being hit by a rock from outer space is about 0.99999999, given that we are hit by millions of tiny ones every day, with a statistical distribution such that we get hit by a larger one less often, and a much larger one much less often, and really big and nasty ones only ever 65,000,000 years or so. It’s pretty certain that we will be hit by something big enough to destroy a large building every X thousands of years, X somewhere between 1 and 10, I think. And something large enough to destroy a small city, maybe with X between 100 and 1000, etc. Fortunately 3/4 of these will land in the ocean, which pretty well absorbs the smaller ones, but the really big ones can cause huge damage even from indirect effects.

Same as all of us folks living in Los Angeles, when we know there will be a 7+ earthquake, and probably within 100 years, and it won’t be fun at all.

We can live with big risks, but they are not zero.

In fact, there is a low-key project to at least track large asteroids, meteors, and other such dangerous objects. We’ve already tracked the hugest ones, of course, but now we try to track everything down to about six foot boulders, or whatever we can see, actually. And, to develop or repurpose existing weapons so we could divert anything we see coming. It’s quite serious. It will happen. Probably not anytime soon, but it’s the size of the pot that’s scary, and does justify reasonable precautions.

OK, carry on.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:57 am 46. Josh:

hey I didn’t get an edit thingy, but here’s a link to the Tunguska asteroid impact, and similar things, from Wikipedia fwiw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event#Similar_events

…oh, NOW I get an edit box, on this AND the previous message!

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:02 am 47. Neil:

@wretchard: #8

“…politicians emphasize the short term in the extreme. Crooks are like that…”

This is entirely rational behavior–there’s often no long term in politics. As one of the philosophers has noted:

Then again we could be foolish not to quit while we’re ahead
For distance lends enchantment, and that is why
All exiles are distinguished; more important, they’re not dead
I could find job satisfaction in Paraguay

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:11 am 48. Marie Claude:

8. wretchard:

I am not so pessimist, and want to see the positive aspect that Ramussen wants to operate : we need Russia as a partner for muslim threats, and Afghanistan security was pointed in the deal, Russia can empech that jihadists find refuge in the former soviet central republics, and may-be a direct russian assistance on the ground too, like Russians are present in the Balkans.

I saw a report on russian youth yesterday, and these people are exacltly like us, same preocupations, same will to enjoy life pleasures… without a bigoted ideology and or religion to empech them

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:18 am 49. Marie Claude:

hein ? where is my post ?

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:20 am 50. Alexis:

If Obama is prepared to negotiate with Russia, Iran, and Venezuela on foreign policy, why isn’t Obama prepared to negotiate with Republicans on health care policy?

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:30 am 51. Pajamas Media » Did the President Gain Anything by Conceding on Missile Defense?:

[...] Read the rest of the story here. [...]

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:31 am 52. Walt:

Ya gotta learn to scrape and bow
Obama’s firm voice soared
We surely can’t create a row
On that we’re in accord
We’re stronger than those other guys
Which means we must agree
That we are neither smart nor wise
Good politics, you see
We bow the head to Saudi kings
We scrape to Putin too
We promise Iran many things
We say that we will do
Whatever North Korea wants
Whatever China craves
We full embrace bin Ladin stunts
From Pakistani caves
Our burden is to lead the world
In being firm but nice
We are no longer strength unfurled
We’re sugar now, and spice

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:34 am 53. Poor Citizen:

Bush wanted to build a missle defense system in a couple of old soviet barns in a couple of old soviet satellite countries. Although “politically correct” diplomatically. It was very expensive, and according to the defense secratary and the JCS, in danger…if it was to be built there. The JCS and, in particualr, Bob Gates prefer to have it mobile, and the technology safe in “Our Navy” hands. Hence, this is a wise move, both tactically and strategically. But Obama should only “share” in this sensible move, it was not his “original” idea.

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:57 am 54. billslayer:

The lowest form of stupidity is weakness. Obama is weakness incarnate. His craven followers worship weakness. This line of crap that he threw up as a fig leaf for his bootlicking worldview is just that, crap and crap only. He is weak, and he hates strength.

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:58 am 55. Sebastian Shaw:

It proves President Obama is a wimp & weak leader.

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:05 pm 56. E Hines:

I’d like to add to an earlier response of mine to ADE, and then to address a couple of new points.

I agree with ADE that Mr Obama’s and Mr Emanuel’s behaviors are informed by their histories, but Mr Obama is a very smart man. He is not limited by or to the Chicago model; he knows exactly what he’s doing it, and he’s doing it anyway. That’s what makes him so much more dangerous than Mr Carter and what makes the damage Mr Obama is doing and will do so much more pervasive.

“…we need Russia as a partner for [various threats]….” Sure. We need a partner who will plunge a knife into our backs the moment he thinks he can get away with it.

“Bob Gates prefer to have it mobile….” And you believe him. After Mr Obama trotted out his latest mouthpiece to tout the accelerating retreat. This man’s integrity was demonstrated when he closed his briefing by trying to prevent all debate of the matter, saying that anyone who disagreed with this decision was either misinformed or misleading. Before that debate even began. His exact words were more akin to “calling it a sellout,” but since that’s what this move is, his words easily generalize to dishonestly trying to cut off all debate. Whether moving the systems to sea-transportable platforms is better tactically or strategically we’ll never know from this man. Whether these “new and improved” systems ever get deployed at all is highly doubtful since Mr Obama has cut off funding for missile defense in general and has made no move to fund this replacement, um, Potemkin system.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:17 pm 57. Patrick Armstrong:

Sometimes I think you righties believe everything you read in the NYT and the rest of the MSM.
“At the G8 summit in 2007, Moscow offered the U.S. joint use of the Gabala radar in Azerbaijan, as well as the Armavir station, being constructed in southern Russia to prevent missile launches.” (http://www.today.az/news/politics/55736.html) With the agreement of Baku, I might add. That went nowhere. But wasn’t that an indication that Moscow was ready to cooperate?

But try and connect the dots (hint: the NYT and the rest of the MSM doesn’t get ANYTHING right – always go to the primary sources, never trust the MSM’s “interpretation”.)

Obama: “In confronting that threat, we welcome Russians’ cooperation to bring its missile defense capabilities into a broader defense”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-Strengthening-Missile-Defense-in-Europe/
Gates: “Their Armavir radar in the southern part of Russia could be integrated into this network and could be very effective in helping us,”
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4479
Medvedev: “we agreed that the United States and Russia will strive to work together to assess the risks of missile proliferation in the world,”
http://eng.kremlin.ru/text/news/2009/09/221693.shtml

Unpanic

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:25 pm 58. Jack in Silver Spring:

Watch out for the bus -

First Israel (we want to establish some daylight between us and Israel) then Honduras, now Poland and the Czech Republic. All allies thrown under the bus, and for what? Intransigence by the Arabs, Chavez just waiting to pounce, the Russian bear demanding yet more. Indeed, a tremendous foreign policy accomplishment. As Rich Lowry suggested today in NRO, we give the President the Neville Award.

The damage done by this man to the US’s credibility and the damage he is doing is unbelievable and will be long lasting. Who will trust us in the future? If I were an American ally I would be rethinking my ties to the US. (I think former allies should form a league and call it, FAUX – Former Allies Unceremoniously eXcluded). Obama gives real meaning to the statement in Psalm 146:3 (Hebrew Bible): Put not your trust in princes, [or] in mortal man who cannot save.

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:29 pm 59. jimpres:

Well he wanted to be another FDR and he is abandoning Poland just like FDR in WWII.
The Russians should never have left Poland in 1993.
So much for allies………….

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:36 pm 60. Mark:

Wrichard writes: “Our dear Western leaders are often content to kick the can down the road in exchange for a few years in power.”

Maybe the great Thinker, i.e. Obama, has a clever trick up his sleeve, as some commenters, above, hope? Perhaps he has a stick to bring to the next crisis? I don’t think so.

By now, after what we’ve seen in health care, cap and trade, and other initiatives, we should know how Obama thinks. He has a notion, e.g., universal health care, and he wants carte blanche to begin maneuvering towards that goal, relying on his oh-so-impressive communication skills and good old deficit funding to achieve it. In the same way, he has vague ideas about world harmony and has some notions about how to proceed towards that goal.

Obama is the first feng shui president. We hired someone who thought, and whom a majority of voters thought, possessed an exquisite sense of order, proportion, taste, discernment, and placement. And what was that other quality? Ah, yes, . . . temperament. Once the Master had the proper resources, he would proceed to implement the order, the design that only a superior being, a “light worker” such as him could imagine. The new concept/design would result in harmony and balance, peace and understanding. You could feel the Aquarian waters flowing.

Israel, unfortunately, is like an old couch in the new international decor, and a couch having a particularly bad upholstery job. That really upsets the “chi.” Now if the couch could be reupholstered, or better yet reimagined as negative space . . . well, you can feel the good energy emanating from such a stroke of genius.

There is no Obama health plan. There is only an Obama notion about a health plan. There is no Obama international policy. There is only an Obama notion about an international policy. It is a beautiful notion. As he makes the design decisions that bring us closer to that design, the world will, assuredly, see the right pieces fall into place?

There’s something rotten in Denmark. It doesn’t help to have Hamlet diddling around while Fortinbras is rippin’ up the north. What’s with Obama? Maybe he just hates the U.S. Maybe he needs to work through his relationship with his mother and grandmother. I don’t know.
In the meanwhile, I’m looking forward to more videos.

Sep 18, 2009 - 12:49 pm 61. billslayer:

53. Poor Citizen:You can’t be serious. Seriously. Please. Obama hates missile defense. All this is, is a dismantling of our nascent strategic defense on the installment plan.
All of the red herring arguments that bootlicking liberal weaklings have against it are transparent. These arguments at their root betray the true nature of american liberalism; an inability to side with their own country. To me, this is a character defect with root is basic cowardice.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:00 pm 62. dan:

Maybe this move is what Biden was referring to when he said “we’re gonna do something and isn’t going to be immediately apparent that we did the right thing, but it will be and you’re going to have to trust us…” or something. could’ve been. seems like too much of this is happening in the dark lately. i don’t like it.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:02 pm 63. Kevin de Bruxelles:

“President Obama’s public withdrawal settles the debate: it sends a clear signal to Eastern Europe that, whatever their official NATO status may be, there is a definite limit to the amount of support they can expect from the current administration. Eastern Europe has been Finlanized.”

It is slight hyperbole to equate the withdrawal of a weapon system aimed towards a Muslim (Iranian) threat as a betrayal and abandonment of Eastern Europe. Whether their withdrawal is right or wrong, those missiles were never intended to actually defend Eastern Europe from a Russian attack.

What is missed in all this is the half-full glass of opportunity. In a clash of civilizations where Muslims are testing boundaries on all fronts and Jews are trying to consolidate their recent gains by any means necessary, what about the possibility of Christians finally stopping 1700 years of infighting and actually working together for a change? The US and Russia represent the two largest and most powerful Christian majority nations. Any rapprochement between these two great powers bodes well for a Christian-dominated global future.

The Christian organizational principle, by divine grace or pragmatic wisdom (your personal faith will decide which) has proven time and time again to be the best way for societies to organize themselves. Muslim societies are an obvious disgrace and particularist Jews thrive in supporting roles within Christian or Muslim societies but were never meant to be any sort of majority. It is not yet clear if the Obama administration recognizes this opportunity, has enough Christians in positions of power, or would have the skill and will to implement it if they did, but the world would certainly profit by a powerful assertion of united Christian power.

Sometimes the new fault lines of conflicts have a way of presenting themselves as fait accompli to statesmen. Perhaps Russia and the US either anticipate or better yet, wish to provoke, an Israeli – Iranian military duel that will leave both nations and religions in tatters. This would represent an unbeatable opportunity for Christians to right so many years of wrong and to step in and retake the Holy Land. Having proven their unworthiness to occupy such sacred ground, surviving Jews and Muslims would be forcibly evicted and Christians–and only Christians–of all denominations would take over, creating an eternal Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Can you just imagine the joy of marking the 2000th anniversary of the resurrection of Christ with an Easter celebration in a peaceful and prosperous Christian Jerusalem in the year 2030?

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:09 pm 64. William:

Obama says the US will stand behind its allies in the event of attack. What kind of attack? Do the Cold War warnings of “mutually assured destruction” ring a bell?

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:17 pm 65. jimpres:

63 Obama did not say how far behind. like so far you can’t see or hear him.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:21 pm 66. bibio44:

13. Fen: “Maybe if we give Putin a free hand in Gerogia, we’ll get a photo op.”

Ha! As if Bush did anything to counter Russia’s invasion – except grouse.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:23 pm 67. Middleman:

So for people who go apes*it over wasteful government spending, why are you railing against Obama because he’s dropping two missile defense facilities that really would be nothing more but window dressing?

It’s already been stated that the system isn’t being scrapped, but rethought and redeployed.

I’d hope Obama gets something out of this, such as Russia finally backing him on Iran, however I doubt it. Putin would rather be the king of scum than play second fiddle to anyone else. At least if Russia doesn’t produce Obama knows what to expect from them in the future without any significant losses.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:26 pm 68. exhelodrvr:

41) Eggplant,

“The expectation value is:
0 * infinity
What’s the value of that?”

Can’t we use the savings from universal health care to purchase giant asteroid insurance?

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:27 pm 69. Josh:

Neil @ 47:

As one of the philosophers has noted:
I could find job satisfaction in Paraguay.

I had to Google to find just which “philosopher” might have said this. Philosopher? Heh.

Even so, point taken.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:27 pm 70. billslayer:

bibio44:Hint, the president’s name is BARACK OBAMA. He it the, you know, topic, of this discussion. As a separate discussion, you make an interesting point, but the wheels fell off that moral equivalence stuff when he took the oath of office.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:27 pm 71. Mark:

I dont’ like to comment on troll comments, but . . . .

I’ve been waiting for those incomprehensibly tone-deaf Russian trolls, and voila:

Kevin de Bruxelles writes: “those missiles were never intended to actually defend Eastern Europe from a Russian attack.” Right, it was just about Iran.

Interesting to see how the Russian trolls think Americans think. Now there’s a whole new meaning to “next year in Jerusalem.”

Putin: “Your bootlicking pleases me, Obama.”

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:28 pm 72. E Hines:

“Whether their withdrawal is right or wrong, those missiles were never intended to actually defend Eastern Europe from a Russian attack.” This misses the point. The missile defense shield was not abandoned because it proves unnecessary against Iranian missiles. It was abandoned because the Rus’ demanded it, and Mr Obama surrendered to their demand.

“The US and Russia represent the two largest and most powerful Christian majority nations.” ?? There’s nothing Christian about the Rus’. Not after butchering 14M Ukrainians and White Russians through deliberate mass starvation in the ’30s. Not after swapping out European Russian military units for Asian Russian military units because the former weren’t raping and pillaging their way through Czechoslovakia with sufficient zeal during the invasion of that hapless country in the late ’60s. Not after doing the opposite during the Afghanistan invasion because the first-in Asian Russian military units weren’t raping and pillaging with sufficient zeal. Not after naked aggression and partition of Georgia. Not after threatening Poland with nuclear immolation if the US’ missile defense shield went in.

And we have it on no less an authority than Mr Obama, himself, in Turkey last winter that the US is not a Christian nation.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:28 pm 73. Josh:

Can’t we use the savings from universal health care to purchase giant asteroid insurance?

If you already have giant asteroid insurance and you’re happy with it, you can keep it!

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:29 pm 74. Middleman:

62. Kevin de Bruxelles,
Holy crap, I’m virtually speechless. Your way of thinking is all that is wrong with the American conservative movement.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:29 pm 75. luddy barsen:

JR Nyquist comments on the news:
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2009/0918.html

…as he has so often before:
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/main.html

Three key facts:
1) Putinism celebrates Stalinism.
2) Stalin really did murder millions and millions of innocents, in the name of Russian Communist security.
3) The left wing of the American Democratic party has always cooperated with Russian Communism.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:33 pm 76. dan:

Ladies & Gentlemen, a Leninist has arrived to test his wares on us.

Speaking of which, al Qaeda’s warning to Germany that it must “change governments or else” in the upcoming September 27th elections has an interesting detail: “The city of Kiel will remain safe.”

City of Kiel? The city of Kiel that was the site of the naval mutiny that began the Bolshevik Revolution in Germany in November 1918? Interesting.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/international/2009/September/international_September887.xml&section=international

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:34 pm 77. luddy barsen:

kevin/62; Even given your premise, you’re factually wrong that the Jews have bollixed Jerusalem. The Jews are the only people who haven’t bollixed Jerusalem. I just wish they were ten times as many and would not need distant dithering Democrats to help them man the front line.

Those comments above lamenting the effort and time required to undo Jimmy Carter –are letting him off too easily. Sure the power of the market saved us from Depression as soon as we extracted him from the White House, but he did manage to permanently weaken the hemisphere via the Canal Giveaway, and he did manage to ignite the current jihad via his betrayal of the Shah. and of course the several millions of the killed by politics gone to shooting in every corner of the Carter globe –are still dead.

Sep 18, 2009 - 1:44 pm 78. MALTHUS:

I hear echos, not only of Chamberlain, but of Quisling, also.–Eric Hines

Mot juste. It is not just appeasement; it is betrayal, as well.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:11 pm 79. David W. Lincoln:

Richard, it wasn’t that long ago that Canada was justly demonized by Washington for refusing, at the time, to go along with a North American Missile Shield. Now, Agent Zero and his zombies have cast away the time and effort and potentially other stuff, to bring Poland and the Czech Republic onside regarding a European Missile Shield.

Trying to have it both ways does not work, nor will it impress the Kremlin. There are Russian companies making money in Iran, and frankly that is a higher priority in the eyes of the Kremlin, than whatever Agent Zero and his zombies conclude is the flavour of the nanosecond.

Seriously, I question the credibility of the current U.S. federal government, and I issue this challenge to Americans living outside of the United States: Who has the cojones to declare a government-in-exile of the United States.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:13 pm 80. zhombre:

Vlad the Impaler I’m sure very soon will bring the subject Poles and Czechs back into line. How dare they think they could thumb their noses at the Russian Fatherland! Did they really convince themselves that the liberals in Western Europe and America regarded them as anything but expendable? It’s not so much three dimensional chess Obama plays as it is, well, Survivor, and they’ve been voted off the island.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:15 pm 81. Kevin de Bruxelles:

Mark / 70: If you really think a couple of anti-missile installations would do anything to even slow down either a Russian ground or nuclear missile attack in Eastern Europe then you have a serious deficiency in your understanding of military strategy.

E Hines/ 71: On the missile issue I purposely stayed neutral on whether the move by the Obama Administration war correct or not; my only point was that by making this move they did not in any way leave Eastern Europe in the same position as Finland post WW2. And of course the only reason Finland was in a position to be “Finlandized” and were not just a Soviet Republic like so many others was that they twice held back serious Soviet invasions thus retaining their admittedly compromised independence. No Eastern European country now or then would have the balls to stand up to a Russian/Soviet invasion like Finland did back then.

I also purposely used the term “Christian-majority” nations, not “Christian nations”. In my opinion nation that is Christian majority, but has a horrific past, is still better and has greater potential as an ally than a non-Christian nation. The problem is that Christians need to exert themselves more within various nations. Admittedly this is a glass half full point of view.

Middleman/73: My views in no way have anything to do with the American conservative movement, or any other movement for that matter.

Buddy /76: I see I wasn’t clear but the premise of a Christian takeover of the Holy Land is that Israel and Iran destroy themselves and their countries in an upcoming nuclear / chemical conflict. I would agree that as things stand today Christians have no cause to take over the Holy Land. Tomorrow may be different however and even if this didn’t come to pass a global alliance of Christian countries would still be a good thing; it would be a refreshing shift in paradigm for Christians to work together and to once again exert their superior way of life.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:19 pm 82. Stephen:

“62. Kevin de Bruxelles,
Holy crap, I’m virtually speechless. Your way of thinking is all that is wrong with the American conservative movement.”

Bite your tongue!

There’s nothing American about #62. Yes it’s in English but it was translated from Russian.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:21 pm 83. AThinkingPerson:

One only needs read Europe’s thoughts on Obama’s gift to Putin to see what this means for the world….

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6838058.ece

Either Obama is a moron or he is deliberately trying to embolden the Russians.

Thank you Liberals for now turning Poland and the Czech’s against us. So much for that “Obama is going to make the whole world love us again” BS. This is on YOUR WATCH let it be noted.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:25 pm 84. whiskey:

The real cost is frantic nuclear armament by Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. Not even Putin will trade Moscow for Warsaw or Budapest or Prague.

It is not 1939 anymore, the great equalizer is nukes. Heck if the nations are nervous, some nukes will do the trick.

As for Israel, this makes it pretty obvious they need to use deterrence. By well, nuking Iran into the stone age. THAT would sort out their enemies, and they can nuke up some more.

What Obama’s decision does, inevitably, is move the next phases of conflict directly to nuclear ones.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:26 pm 85. indy:

“for Christians to work together and to once again exert their superior way of life”

wow! isn’t this what hilter was trying to do? what side are you on? you sound like obama!

also: (don’t forget to iron your white hood for the meeting tonight)

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:32 pm 86. E Hines:

“If you really think a couple of anti-missile installations would do anything to even slow down….” Of course not. Belaboring this is a red herring. As a physical installation, though, it was a powerful symbol of our commitment. As is Mr Obama’s surrender to some pressure from the Rus’ also a powerful symbol of our trustworthiness.

“On the missile issue I purposely stayed neutral….” We can’t stay neutral. Just ask Belgium and The Netherlands. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to stay neutral. (OK, I played with the quote….)

“In my opinion nation that is Christian majority, but has a horrific past, is still better and has greater potential as an ally than a non-Christian nation.” I’ll stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel, Iraq, Japan, even Viet Nam and France before I’ll let a single Rus’ anywhere near me.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:38 pm 87. Bohemond:

“What benefits will the world get from the administration’s actions? What diplomatic breakthroughs? What engagements? Let us wait and see.”

I ain’t holding my breath. This is the guy who is *actively abetting* an attempted Chavista coup in Honduras.

T Roosevelt: “Walk sofly and carry a big stick”

B Obama: “Walk softly and carry a limp dick”

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:47 pm 88. presbypoet:

re: Rocks from space. The danger is real. If the 1908 rock hit just a few hours later, it would have vaporized St. Petersburg. We are still finding dangerous rocks. The most dangerous have an orbit just inside earth’s orbit. You don’t see them until just before they hit. All we see is their dark side.

You can’t just count craters to estimate frequency. If they explode in the air, they leave no crater.

We must do much more than we are doing, to defend against them. If we knew one was going to hit in a year, we have nothing to stop it.

An aside; Revelation contains a description of what would happen if we were hit by a large rock in 8:7-9. “…Something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea”… So when will it hit? How did John know?

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:47 pm 89. Annoy Mouse:

KdB is a KGB troll.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:48 pm 90. MALTHUS:

The US and Russia represent the two largest and most powerful Christian majority nations. Any rapprochement between these two great powers bodes well for a Christian-dominated global future.–Kevin de Bruxelles

(Is this just clumsy satire??)

Putin and Obama are Christians?! I thought liberation theology was heterodox.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:48 pm 91. Stephen:

The era of rapid nuclear proliferation has just begun. The world has been waiting for some idiot American President to give the green light and now the waiting is over.

May God have mercy on us.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:49 pm 92. Richard Wilson:

Many polls in the Czech Republic and Poland show half of the population against the “missile defence” shield. Russia is not planning on invading the former Warsaw Pact nations, Eastern parts of Ukraine? Perhaps. Whatever the case, what is more important, for America and for Russia, is to unite against Islamism, which, at the rate Western Europeans are having(not having ) children, Brussels may soon be Muslim(hyperbole? I hope). When caliphism is crushed, only then should we worry about a failing , has been nation like Russia. The Cold War is over, the new war is really an older war: the war between civilization and Islam. If humanity were seen as a body, Islam would be the Ebola, Russia would be a nasty recurrent infection, nothing serious or deadly.Islam has to be destroyed, even if we unite with Communist China and Russia to accelerate its demise.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:52 pm 93. dan:

Poland is not going to nuke up. The issue was rival creeping strategems: Russia back into USSR (think not only of Poland but of Cuba and Yemen), USA preventing it and replacing it with willing partners under Clinton – Bush. Yes, yes, Clinton was a ____, I know, blah blah blah. Nevertheless, Obama just had a major symbolic card to play and showed that his grand strategy of “accomodating Russia” – probably Russia’s hurt feelings or some other stupid liberal b__sh_t like that – is serious. Remember General What’s His Name getting canned as Supreme Allied Commander Wesley Snipes cuz he wanted to attack the Russkies in Srebrensprza? Eh? Don’t be so easily distracted. Russia is not as weak as she seems to some of you. Of course the Leninists here already know this. Islam is a distraction.

Sep 18, 2009 - 2:59 pm 94. MALTHUS:

[I]sn’t this what hilter was trying to do?–indy

Um, no. Hitler was an advocate of race socialism. You must be confusing him with the ecumenical movement, as represented by the World Council of Churches.

Hitler’s theology was more akin to New Age or Theosophy. It is not possible to confuse Wotan with the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:03 pm 95. Stephen:

My gut tells me that lots of nations will nuke up. It’s the past few decades of ever smaller faster cheaper stuff. What’s so special about nukes? What’s so special about lots and lots of them? Does somebody in the White House wanna do something about it?

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:07 pm 96. Kevin de Bruxelles:

Indy / 85: That’s just it; you cannot easily insert my ideas into a pre-packaged “movement” and your poor brain is being forced to think. That’s because movements were invented for people who don’t want to think. Some of the thoughts running through your head include:

“Is this freak Right or Left?”

“Is he a Nazi or a Communist?”

“Oh no, I’m outside of my comfort zone, how do I deal with ideas that my media superiors have not already prepared me for?”

E Hines / 86:
Who is the bigger threat right now, Russians or Muslims? Is it not worth a role of the dice to gain a Christian ally with who share a common Muslim threat? And what is the price? Some minor missile installation that is nowhere near deployable?

You have to look at this from a national point of view. That concession is on the table for as long as Obama is in office. Since the system is not yet ready, work can continue and an eventual President Palin in 2113 could easily overturn this policy if the Russians don’t play ball.

On the other hand I have no idea if Russia is ready to deal and to stop playing kissy-face with Iran. That is why I cannot instantly have an opinion on it. I know in the electronic age this is bad form, but that’s just me.

Some of the nations you mention are worthy allies but the overall strategic goal of having a global Christian alliance does not mean that we couldn’t work with them. It only means that Christian majority nations would have priority.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:11 pm 97. exhelodrvr:

80) Kevin d B
“In my opinion nation that is Christian majority, but has a horrific past, is still better and has greater potential as an ally than a non-Christian nation.”

So you think Russia is a better ally than Japan or Taiwan?

Interesting …

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:12 pm 98. luddy barsen:

I like Russians in detail –full hearty people with a lot of exuberence and heart. En masse they haven’t really had much of a chance –how many times was Moscow burned in the olden times? –and could use a couple decades of autonomy, strung together, to get clear of the felt strongman. Moses had to stay in the desert until Joshua’s generation came of age, the old ex-slaves weren’t up to the fight.

The problem is about six thousand KGB/FSB commie internationalists in the Kremlin. If they had to put up with an Obama or a Carter every few years they wouldn’t be so tough. But they don’t, so they are. i think they may have finally gotten hold of the White House. i think they wrote the economy-destroying bills. i think we may have a nasty military setback somewhere before this bunch leaves the White House –objective being a redo of the “Vietnam Syndrome” which did so much good for the domestic and international communist movement.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:17 pm 99. E Hines:

“Who is the bigger threat right now, Russians or Muslims? Is it not worth a role of the dice to gain a Christian ally with who share a common Muslim threat?”

This is a no-brainer. The Rus’ are vastly the greater threat. And since they’re most decidedly not Christian, they’re useless in any Pan-Christianity world domination effort. Islam hasn’t committed anywhere near the atrocities the Rus’ have. The terrorists operating today under the rubric of Islam are no more that than are the Irish terrorists Christians, even though they claim themselves to be Protestant or Catholic.

“Since the system is not yet ready, work can continue….” There’s no reason to believe that work will continue. Mr Obama already has cut off funding for missile defense generally, and he’s done nothing to provide funding for his “promised” new system. (And we’ve already seen the value of his “promises.”)

“Some of the nations you mention are worthy allies but the overall strategic goal of having a global Christian alliance does not mean that we couldn’t work with them. It only means that Christian majority nations would have priority.” I have no use for this religious bigotry, either. I’m willing to work with potential friends and allies of any religion–or atheism.

Eric Hines

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:33 pm 100. Annoy Mouse:

As long as we are being frank, I thought Bush missed an excellent opportunity to side with the Russians against Chechnya. The legitimacy of that separatist movement was less important than the fact that this was a bold Islamist theocracy not much different ideologically than the Taliban. It served us no purpose to denounce Russian brutality when we were ourselves bombing goat herders from 25 thousand feet.

But having said that, what possible common interests might we share with one another? Iran, Syria, Afghanistan? The Ruskies are still spoiling for a fight with us and they’d piss on their own shoes for the opportunity. They are the problem of the Middle East region and Iran as China is to North Korea.

Pacifists would be well advised to consider that there will never be a world peace as long as there is a Russia to piss in the soup.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:34 pm 101. Tcobb:

I cannot remember the novel, it was long ago when I read it. But, to set forth the relevant portion, a young girl had a parrot as a pet, and she loved it. It could fly outside as it wished. And then one day, with a group of other children that she truly wished to be bonded with, they saw the parrot and began stoning it. Even though it was her parrot, she too began picking up rocks and throwing it at the parrot because that’s what the other children were doing. The parrot died.

Obama is the young girl.

We are the parrot.

The group he cares most for, and so desires to be a part of, really doesn’t like America.

America is the parrot.

The stones are coming.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:38 pm 102. Whitehall:

Centrifuges are old news. Nowadays, laser enrichment is the quick and easy path to highly enriched, weapon-grade uranium.

A commercial laser enrichment plant is under contruction in North Carolina now. There is little to stop smaller countries from developing uranium-based nukes. Yellowcake has some international controls but alternate sources exist. The Czech Republic should have little problem and any country with access to seawater can get it from ocean water.

Not only can even small countries do it, it needs be neither visible nor public.

With the willing withdrawal of American hegemony, nuclear proliferation is the path to national survival.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:53 pm 103. Tony:

President Obama has achieved in his first 8 months what it took Jimmy Carter the better part of four years to achieve. In Jimmy’s case, by 1979 (in a particularly interesting slice of the boring “Cold War”) we were losing one country per continent per year to the Soviet influence. It was startling how fast it happened after the “fall” of Vietnam.

Imagine how fast our fortunes would be falling if we had surrendered immediately in Iraq in 2006, the strategic demand that brought now President Obama to fame way back when.

Surrender does not lead to peace. A self-weakened America has proven to be bad for the world over and over again, not just bad for selfish USA. America retreated before and after both World Wars, just like after Vietnam, and the results are always the same – more war.

Sep 18, 2009 - 3:54 pm 104. Rurik:

Buddy,#97

In the summer of 1980, I had the opportunity to meet and hear the great Russian dissident, Andrei Amalrik, when he was keynote speaker at conference in Reston. During the Q & A, a young woman stood up and asked “Andrei Andreevich, how can it be that the Russian people who have created so many works of immortal beauty, have also commited such unspeakable crimes?” Amalrik chucked a little and answered “One Russian, by himself, is very nice guy. Like me. Five or six Russian together … so so. But you put one hundred Russian together is danger to everyone!

Sep 18, 2009 - 4:14 pm 105. dan:

“i like russians in detail” – agreed. i simply use russians as a synechdoche for whatever that horrendous major malfunction is responsible for the kgb/communist relentless malevolent genius. russians are often great, and the women are so unbelievable! i do not intend an ethnic slur. but the kgb is real, as you point out. as peter deriabin points out in “kgb: masters of the soviet union,” essentially, “i have noticed since i defected to the West in 1954 that, for some reason, people in the West do not believe what I or other defectors tell them about what the kgb is and what it is doing. But you should believe, because they are doing it.” Suvorov says the same thing at the end of Inside Soviet Military Intelligence. So? We must just keep saying it, I guess.

Sep 18, 2009 - 4:19 pm 106. luddy barsen:

Dan/104; We must just keep saying it — link that Nyquist archive (my #74) every chance you get. It’s a pretty comprehensive record of what the eastern bloc defectors have been telling us for the last few decades.

Sep 18, 2009 - 4:41 pm 107. M. Report:

Apophis is not just a villain
in the StarGate series; He may
motivate us to develop a real
deep-space operational capability.

As to the relative danger of
Russians and extremist Muslim
terrorists; The Rus would like
to rule the world, the terrorists
want to end it, and will eventually
get the capability; they must be
extinguished before the Day comes.

Sep 18, 2009 - 4:58 pm 108. George S.:

the russians don’t partner with anyone.

to the russians you are a proxy to aid your goals or you are the enemy.

there is never any long term gain tiptoeing around a bully, one needs to stand ones ground as to not do so only emboldens the aggressor.

why the liberal/democrats/socialist think that dialog will get them anything but a bloody nose is laughable.

…and so history repeats itself.

regards

Sep 18, 2009 - 4:58 pm 109. Marina:

A couple of years ago one Marxist Catholic professor and priest (there were many of them during the Soviet times, some are dead or retired by now, some are still teaching in the Catholic colleges all over the world) told us: ALWAYS LOOK AT THE DATE of the event, ’cause for the Communists THE DATE IS HALF A MESSAGE.

So, Obama has surprised Poland and pleasantly surprised Russia on the day of the Russian invasion of Poland. That’s not a coincidence. That’s the message to both countries.

But look what Obama was going to do with Israel! Mitchell has failed to impose the settlemet freeze on Israel and left. But what if he would have succeeded? We would have got the glorious declaration of the next step towards the destruction of Israel on ROSH HA SHANA (the New Year): “Happy New Year, …”. And Obama dares to open his mouth and wish the Jews happy new year trying to stab Israel in the back at the same day… Wow. Not surprising, but disgusting anyway. (The same day EU “calls for halt to settlement activity” and the World Bank urges Israel to help the Palestinian corrupt and hopeless economy – THE DATE IS HALF A MESSAGE).

And the Goldstone’s UN report about bad, bad IDF soldiers that protected their country from poor, poor Palestinian agressors in the last Gaza operation will be presented to the Human Rights Council (surprise!) the day after Yom Kippur: “Remember, …, you’ve won THAT war, but we’ll never let you win another one. Even if you’ll physically win, we’ll sue you afterwards”. THE DATE IS HALF A MESSAGE indeed.

Now when we have Marxists in power, we’d better pay attention to such small details as well.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:17 pm 110. dan:

Yeah Marina – like 9/11 being both Felix Dzerzhinksy’s birthday (founder of KGB) and Khruschev’s deathday. Linking those two is interesting because the major reorganization of Soviet world revolution strategy was supposed to have been worked out under Khruschev. 9/11 by hired idiot jihadis is perhaps the announcement of the commencement of the final phase of the strategy, a few years after the kinks of the USSR’s dissolution-from-above was brought under control.

That’s why the message “Kiel will remain safe” in the al Qaeda messgae freaks me out. Because – Kiel? Who the f ever thinks of Kiel but as a faint footnote in the studious anti-communist’s mind? As you say, there is a message there.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:33 pm 111. Richard Wilson:

Eric Hines–Come now, saying Rus’ to sound learned still does no help for your chest-slapping, head shaking anti-Russian spew. The proper way to say “Russians”, as in “more than one person from Rus”, is “Ruskiye”.Other matters:The Russians have committed more crimes than Muslims??? The genocide in India over 500 years? The rampage thru the Arabian Peninsula? “Russians aren’t Christian”, as a Russian Orthodox Christian I don’t find that offensive — just a hilarious example of stupidity.Too, one casual look at the history of Islam before 1900 finds millions , hundreds of millions of dead Christians, Hindus, pagans, Jews, atheists, Jains, Zoroastrians and Muslims. Islam equals death. Russia is Christian, whether you choose to accept this fact or not. We need more Ivan Groznys to fight Islam and less sclerotic Russophobes.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:38 pm 112. Josh:

OK, here it is, Obama’s plan is now something that provides “a defense umbrella over the middle east”.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_us_missile_defense

Did he say that in the speech? Frankly, I didn’t listen.

Is it credible, technologically, politically?

Dunno.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:51 pm 113. ahem:

In nature, animals showing signs of infirmity become prey. Prepare yourselves for some serious preying.

Obama’s perfidy gives Czechoslovakia and Poland little choice, ultimately, other than to go to war for their independence or be pulled back into Russia’s sphere of influence. Other nations, reading the bones, will fall into place. Strength is always more alluring than weakness. Aggression from Venezuela? Check. Aggression from China? Check. Aggression from Russia? Check. Aggression from Iran? Check. Aggression from Al Qaeda? Check. And Israel will have to strike preemptively to try to save itself. And none of our traditional partners will be coming to help us.

I fear another world war is on the horizon.

FYI: These missile installations that Mr Obama so casually threw away yesterday are placed strategically in the trajectory path of any nuclear missiles Iran might feel compelled to fire at the US. So, we’re shooting ourselves in both feet with this move.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:53 pm 114. JFSanders031:

Dan, Buddy and Rurik:
I keep seeing this recurring theme about the group psyche of “Russians”. Would this be ethnic Russians or Asian Russians? White Russians? I am trying to wrap my head around this theory/anecdotal evidence that Russians have a mental “defect?” when you get a group of a hundred or so together. I have been in the company of your average Sergei and haven’t noticed anything other than a distinct drive for success. These guys work hard at making money. I wasn’t around them enough to ascertain their moral standard with complete certainty but my general vibe was they were no different than your average college graduate American.

Now I understand NOT blindly trusting anyone. I am a true believer in Reagan’s “TRUST but VERIFY”. Help me out here. I am going to see if I can dig up a copy of the authors that were listed in your comments.

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:54 pm 115. geoffb:

We elected the anti-JFK.

“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, oppose any friend, support any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of Tyranny.”

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:56 pm 116. Lifeofthemind:

Annoy Mouse,
Concur about Chechnya. We gained nothing by taking the high road.
Also about the Troll being our Gremlin from the Kremlin, Duh, Ya Think? The important thing is that they are back. That is a close leading indicator that something is due to happen. The surprise over the Summer was the dog that didn’t bark. We did not have the agitprop visitors and the tanks did not roll. Why not? Maybe it was because they did not want to step on Obama’s first efforts to get his agenda through Congress. Now that he has stalled things may be moving again. But delay can be expensive. The Germans lost 10 weeks invading the Balkans that cost them Moscow. If the Russians move on Georgia or the Ukraine this year then the Poles and Balts and Czechs and Hungarians will have a year to get ready.

At this point I can not think of a good reason for any country not to build nukes or if so small that they cannot secure them against a first strike then combine into a secure federation. That emphatically would not be the EU, which has not earned the trust of the Eastern Europeans. The nations of New Europe should be holding urgent consultations on closer integration. Perhaps they could honor their federation with the name “Rumsfeld League.”

Sep 18, 2009 - 5:56 pm 117. Marie Claude:

“That emphatically would not be the EU, which has not earned the trust of the Eastern Europeans”

oh that’s funny, in EU that is precisely that the people are saying of these new born Europeans !

But why not including them in your federation ? Obama said there were 57 states
Though you will not get Hungary, too many ties with us, Austria, Croatia… and Sarkozy !

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:21 pm 118. toad:

Well so far nothing concrete, but there is speculation that Obama will not get anything directly from the missile deal but his good buddies over at General Electric will with some business agreements with the Russians. I’d be on the watch for something involving manufacturing GE jet engines in Russia.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:28 pm 119. Mongoose:

people are giving Obama too much credit here. There is no grand game emanating from him.

He is in the pocket of foreign powers. At every trun he has sold us out to Russia. He is in their pocket, and he is a fellow traveler to boot. The real power behind him our our enemies.

I imagine that Russian cash has found it way into other Demcrat pockets as well. A good bit of Chinese and ME cash too, i’d bet. Everyting Obama does has as it purpose destroying us as a world power, and elevating our competitors. In six months, whoever is running Obama has done what no one in our history has. Removed us as the per-eminent world power on the world stage, It will be difficult to return to where we were. Who is going to take us seriously now? They have exposed that,evidently, Americans no longer want to be a power,.

People just cannot see it because that do not want to believe that such a thing can happen. That we can elect a foreign stooge as POTUS during a time of war.

Every act is against us. If you were Putin, what would you do different than what obama has done.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:46 pm 120. trangbang68:

Kev from Brussels or Moscow or whatever makes an interesting syncretism of Christian triumphalism mixed with anti-semitism. The only place I recall that view was in Tsarist Russia where the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” fraud originated.
I have mentioned it here before but there is a prophetic Biblical teaching found in Ezekial 38-39 of a war where Russia ,Iran and other Muslim entities attack Israel and are destroyed by divine intervention leading to the rise of antichrist.
The prophecy implies the West will be hesitant to intervene asking “Are you come for a spoil?” or possibly neutralized “I will rain down fire on them that dwell securely in the isles”. Whiskey has been pimping that line for a while but he is not alone. Pastor David Wilkerson of Time Square Church and “Cross and the Switchblade” fame has been warning for a while of a vision he saw of New York City in flames, including parts of New Jersey and Connecticut. He thought it was fulfilled on 9/11 but was inspired by the Lord that it is an event yet to occur. Read the verses in Ezekial for yourself, you will need
some sort of Commentary to bring the place names into modern usage. Gog and Magog, Meshech and Tubal are considered the predecessors of modern Russia, Persia is obviously Iran, Cush and Put are Libya and areas of east Africa such as Somolia,Togormah is Turkey or the ’stans. Read it for yourself. Maybe Obama instead of being merely a Chicago commie ward heeler might be a big player in the forces of darkness ushering in prophetic events.

Sep 18, 2009 - 6:56 pm 121. Mongoose:

Rurik: so true.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:29 pm 122. Mongoose:

Kev: What makes you think that Russia is in actual fact a Christian nation?

I have been traveling there for years. It is pretty much a secular society. A small minority now practice openly, but Christianity hardly guides the Russian soul.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:35 pm 123. Richard Wilson:

From Buckley acerbic and brilliant mind to this? No wonder conservatives are looked at as A.) Hiccuping yokels B.)Knee-jerk reactionaries C.)Panoptic , salivating “born again(heretic)” Xhristians or a mix of all the above. Russia in Biblical prophecy? Ahhhhhhh, how goshdarn cute! Obama as a socialist? Commie? He is foul, I grant you this, but a Commie he is not.
Protocols of course began in Russia(or is it “Rus’”?Gog?The Realm of the Antichrist?Mordor?) but it was an American traitor, Ford, who popularized it, Muslims who still sell it in their bestseller section. Kremlin from the Gremlin? If vacuity had any weight you could kill an ox by dropping it on this comment.Rudimentary, yet preposterous.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:42 pm 124. David W. Lincoln:

119. trangbang68:, your interpretation of the scriptures you named is challenged. Take a look at http://www.joelstrumpet.com

Joel Richardson co-wrote “Why we left Islam” with Walid Shoebat, and has some other material that frankly does a better job of explaining what is going on, and where we are headed, instead of manipulating the facts to fit previously arrived at conclusions. (Sound familiar?)

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:42 pm 125. alex:

It is interesting how people talk about the missile defense shield as if it actually existed.

It does not, and never has. It was a wet dream and damage caused was in perpetrating it existed and forcing allies in Europe to commit to something that was never going to be built.

Money is being spent on chemical Lasers; airborne, ship and ground based systems to intercept Missiles. This is the focus of Missile defense research and manufacturing. These exist, they work, and are being produced as you read this.

There were reasons for the US admin to play the SDI game again, maybe buy time, divert funds to laser systems without anyone knowing…who knows. But lets not get carried away with debating something that was never intended to actually exist.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:50 pm 126. Anon:

Russian Victory: Obama Kills Missile Defense for Poland, Czech Republic!!!

Mr. “Obama Plans on Disarming America,” at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUsVQV3Lhk, short summary of an essentially anti-Reagan defense policy, with a weak QDR and NPR:

– Mr. Obama don´t support modernization of the US nuclear arsenal, its delivery systems, underground testing, and missile defense.

– Mr. Obama don´t support modernization of the US Armed Forces.

– Mr. Obama leaves US more vulnerable to the emerging nuclear threat from North Korea and Iran, betrays Poland and Czech Republic, and weakens the US nuclear umbrella.

– Mr. Obama don´t has a moral compass, e.g. don´t recognize the real adversaries of US, e.g. AQ/Taliban, Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia.

– Mr. Obama has no respect for the US Constitution, Freedom of Speech, and the Victims of 9/11/01.

In summary: Mr. Obama has withdrawn US of the world, due to the fact that he lives in a dangerous fantasy world, our adversaries don´t.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:54 pm 127. Mongioose:

From Buckley acerbic and brilliant mind to this? No wonder conservatives are looked at as A.) Hiccuping yokels B.)Knee-jerk reactionaries C.)Panoptic , salivating “born again(heretic)” Xhristians or a mix of all the above.

What pompous hogwash.

Sep 18, 2009 - 7:59 pm 128. MarkJ:

Wherever Winston Churchill is now, he’s flicking away the ashes on his cigar and muttering, “Obama, you had the choice between honor and war. You chose dishonor…and you shall have war.”

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:00 pm 129. Mongioose:

Alex, you need to tell your superiors that you English is not up to the assignment they have given you.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:04 pm 130. Alexis:

I think part of the present situation comes from the diplomacy of Madeleine Albright. She pushed for a “United Europe” as her highest priority and pushed hard for the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe.

There’s nothing wrong with expanding into eastern Europe so long as one is willing to pay the requisite costs. NATO headquarters should have moved to Prague. American military bases should have moved out of Germany and into Poland. The problem is that when one makes empty promises, trouble makers typically know a vacuum when they see one.

What worries me the most, though, is the Baltic states. Bringing them into NATO may have seemed like a nice gesture at the time, but there is no way for NATO to effectively defend them if Russia were to ever invade. It would be rather like Britain and France defending Czechoslovakia or Poland, requiring a second front.

I’m not happy with what Obama has done with European diplomacy and how he has been doing it. I will point out that the weak military position of NATO in defending eastern Europe makes it easy for Obama to act the way he has done. The situation with Kosovo in the past eleven years has emboldened Russia to act more aggressively on its western frontier; Madeleine Albright’s hardball politics vis a vis Russia has not been forgotten in the Kremlin. Given that history, I think Putin will push Obama as hard as he can and see just how much he can get away with.

If one were a Russian militarist, why shouldn’t one test Obama’s resolve? If Obama turns out to be a cream puff with pro-Muslim sympathies, why shouldn’t Putin show eastern Europeans just who the real sheriff is?

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:11 pm 131. Richard Wilson:

…and liberals are all hedonistic, coy lunatics or dismal milksops who speak in portentously vacuous cant. Whatever mongoose, whatever. Two men have been lost inside Obama: One was a devout liberal(see above), obsessed with righteousness, expiation and cutting a fine figure with ones TV Guide oratory, the other was a clever but perhaps too flashy graffiti artiste. I would not have missed them had they not been somehow embalmed , and did their remains not show through Obamas glossy but transparent act as president of the United States of America. One is hard pressed to find one good thing about this Sybil. Nader would , without a doubt, have had more chutzpah , more testosterone, nay, more backbone, in dealing with Americas enemies(see Islam, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran) and in forcing Russia into a state of detente, without comprising our own national integrity. And Nader is a loop job.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:25 pm 132. Patriot Front:

Can anyone provide a quick assessment on how this development might affect Israel? I just caught the tail end of John Bolton on FNC worrying that Israel may act militarily against Iran in the next 6 months.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:25 pm 133. Richard Wilson:

Israel should have acted 6 moons ago. Screw the UN, let us take Robert Conquests advice: get out of the UN and create an Anglo Union, with Aust, NZ, Canada and tada! us, the greatest nation on earth. Then, we , not Israel, bomb Iran and NK, every nuke zilched.Then, leave Saudi Arabia, threaten to turn Mecca into a swine abattoir, close the borders, every time there is an attack against any member of this Union, we bomb a little part of Mecca.Oh, and we send Frank and Pelosi to Eurabia, ACORN to Pyongyang, Hollywood to the dustbin of history. have to go fellers.

Sep 18, 2009 - 8:50 pm 134. Whitehall:

Let’s give Obama some credit – he has us still uncertain as to what’s his game or even if he has a game.

Until we figure that out, at least in broad outlines, we’ll have difficulty responding and turning the tables.

Sep 18, 2009 - 9:43 pm 135. David W. Lincoln:

The February 28, 2005 Wall Street Journal Editorial shows the fury directed towards Canada for doing the opposite of what Poland and the Czech Republic would later do.

All that work, and anything else, to bring Poland and the Czech Republic onside for a missile defense system just goes to show that Agent Zero and his zombies are more interested
in the crowd, rather than what makes sense.

Because if all that happens is for those who are grousing about Obama, that they will wait until the November, 2010 elections to teach him a lesson at the ballot box, why then vent now? Either take more decisive steps, or continue to be ignored by the usual suspects
in the MSM.

It is one thing to show up for marches, and Tea Parties, it is something else to handle the responsibilities of government.

So, if this is just another coffee klatch, deal me out.

Here is the editorial, and remember it ran in 2005:

The following editorial appeared in the Wall Street Journal on Feb. 28

Prime Minister Paul Martin bowed to a rebellion in his Liberal party ranks last week and announced that Canada won’t participate in the U.S. missile-defense system. Translation from the Canadian: They’ll now rely on the Americans to defend their country for them.

This has long been the de facto reality for Ottawa, especially as its defense spending has plummeted in recent years. But government officials on both sides of the border are too polite to say this in public. Paul Cellucci, the U.S. ambassador in Ottawa, went about as far as a diplomat can go when he said in response to the missile- defense decision: “We simply cannot understand why Canada would, in effect, decide to give up its sovereignty, its seat at the table, to decide what to do about a missile that might be heading toward Canada.”

Of course, the reason Canadians can indulge their moral afflatus against “weaponizing space,” and in favor of maintaining “Canadian values,” is because they know their proximity means the Americans will always come to their rescue. It’s a classic example of what economists call the “free-rider” problem.

A statement last week by Defense Minister Bill Graham was particularly revealing. Speaking about NORAD — the binational command located in Colorado Springs that monitors U.S. and Canadian airspace — he said: “NORAD evaluates a threat. Making a decision to launch a missile is a whole other story.”

But that was the whole point of asking the Canadians to sign on to the missile-defense system — to include them in the decision- making process in the event of an emergency. As the Canadians were amazed to discover, the U.S. doesn’t need them to deploy the shield – - no Canadian radar station, no Canadian territory on which to station interceptors. Washington was nevertheless offering Ottawa a chance to participate in its own defense and choose what its contribution would be. Now, if a North Korean missile targeting Seattle goes off course and heads instead for Vancouver, the U.S. will decide for Canada.

Ottawa had been hemming and hawing about the U.S.-led missile defense system since Washington withdrew from the Cold War-era Antiballistic Missile Treaty in 2002. Meanwhile, dire predictions about a new “arms race” failed to materialize and the proposed shield has quietly gone international. Britain, Australia and Japan have signed up; allies in both Old and New Europe have expressed interest, and there’s even talk about including Russia. Canada stands alone among America’s close allies in its outright rejection of missile defense.

The Canadian decision calls into question the future of Norad, which plays a critical role in the U.S. missile defense system. After much internal political angst, Canada agreed last summer to permit Norad to transmit any information it gathers on incoming missiles to the missile-defense system.

But the agreement establishing Norad expires next year. Also in the small favours department, Canada announced last week that it would increase its spending on defense, which as a percentage of GDP — 1.2% in 2003 — is now the lowest in NATO after Luxembourg and Iceland (which has no military). The U.S. spent 3.5% of GDP in 2003.

The Canadian decision is a major disappointment from a country that has been a good friend of the U.S. since the middle of the 19th century. The most telling symbol of the two countries’ close defense relationship came on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when a Canadian general at NORAD was in charge of U.S. airspace. Canadian forces have since died fighting with Americans in Afghanistan. And while Canada did not support the war in Iraq, it quietly provided anti- terrorism assistance in the Persian Gulf.

Canada and the U.S. will no doubt continue to work together on North American security. But with Canada’s abdication on missile defense, the partnership will become even more one-sided.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:04 pm 136. Warren Bonesteel:

I try that shoe on the other foot. What if…Russia had placed such a ’shield’ in Mexico or Cuba, or had negotiated for a bit of landscape from the Chinese – either in Panama or in the Bahamas – and placed it there?

 If what we’ve done in Ossetia – or any one of the other CIS nations – wasn’t already enough, we try to deploy an advanced missile defense system right on their borders, too? THEN, we turn around and wonder why Russian subs are openly patrolling off the coastlines of America???

 If that’s the case, we’re either stupid or crazy…or both.

Google: ‘Putin: Russia’s Development Strategy to 2020. Feb, 2008:’

Putin told us not to play silly games. America hasn’t listened.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:04 pm 137. trangbang68:

Hey Wilson. Take a chill pill, Einstein. You must see yourself as an erudite mocker of yokels like me. I see you rather as a pompous incoherent douchebag, but what do I know? I am just postulating a Christian teaching that has had lots of play among the yeah, you nailed it, “born agains”.One thing with Biblical prophetic teachings, they give a framework to try to make sense of this world out of control. Of course , they’re not rational world views like nuking a couple of countries.

Mr. Lincoln, Enlighten me, how exactly did your link disprove the doctrine I mentioned? As far as trying to support previously arrived at conclusions, it has long been the habit of the church to try to view history from a Biblical perspective .

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:05 pm 138. Subotai Bahadur:

Re: Troll droppings. The concept of authoritarian/wanna-be-Soviet-again Russia combining with any western or Christian nation against Islam is laughable. Which country has persistently armed terrorist movements against the “Christian” West for decades? Which country has created the Iranian nuclear weapons program for them? Which country furnished the already enriched past fuel grade U-235 to Iran? Which country has worked with them to take their older missiles and make them into a threat to the West as soon as the Iranians can fabricate nuclear warheads to fit? And which country is more than happy to use the Iranians and any other Muslims that they can suborn as catspaws to attack the US and the West in general? Tovarisch?

The Russian trolls are out. Vladimir Vladimirovich is about to follow up on his great victory over the West through the actions of Buraq, with moves somewhere else, and is preparing the ground.

Shiva is preparing to dance the Dance of Fire, Death, and Destruction, and the Kali-yuga is upon us. There will be deaths, and the blood will be on those who brought this about; including Vladimir Vladimirovich, and his handmaiden [word chosen with care] Buraq Hussein.

May the peoples of the former Warsaw Pact vassels harden their hearts and gird themselves to defend their freedom; trusting in none of the “Great Powers” for they will betray them reflexively. And may Israel do whatever is necessary to preserve her existence. For she is alone.

*************

As far as the nature of the Russian people and psyche; I have a few conjectures.

The true heart of Russian culture is not Moscow, but Kiev. Kievan Rus. Converted from paganism by the Orthodox Church, later believing the Russian people to be the Third Rome after the fall of the first two [the Byzantines being the second], and developing a culture far from that which exists today; Kiev was on the path to evolve from absolutism. Even a form of democracy was evolving, with limits on the power of the ruling Princes being places on them by the Veche or Council. It was far from a perfect democracy, with male suffrage with strict property qualifications, but it was a beginning.

Just as the culture began to really flower, the Mongol armies of my online namesake appeared. There was one crucial mistake. If a people submitted peacefully, they were left alone, leaders and institutions intact, so long as they did not rebel and paid their tribute. The leaders of Kiev believed that priests, icons, and peasants with sticks and stones could stop Mongol light cavalry and composite bows. They were wrong, and Kiev was razed. It rose again, but not to the same prominence.

Once the various city states that made up Russia were conquered; the Khanate did not want to involve itself in the day to day rule of each. In the end, they periodically called the Princes of the cities to the Ordu of the Khan, and there they competed to promise the most benefit to the Mongols if they were granted overlordship over the other cities. The Princes of Muscovy became the Autocrat of all the Russias, because of their talent in betraying and exploiting their own people for the benefit of foreign conquerers. This is a cultural thread that still exists in Russia.

The very last Mongols were driven from Russia in the 1700’s, although formal rule ended in the late 1400’s, and the struggle went on for centuries before that.

But from the Mongol conquest until the 16-1700’s; Russia was isolated from the rest of Western civilization. Think of what they missed. They missed the light of learning returned to Europe by Irish monks. They missed the reformation and the counter-reformation and the eventual liberating effects on European minds. They missed the rise of capitalism and trade. They missed out on technological developments. And they lived in a society and culture where absolute power, the abuse of the weak, treachery, and betrayal were the common currency.

The multi-culturalism of the Left is pure and unadulterated bovine end product. Cultures differ. Different histories, different economics, different religions equal a different view on life ingrained from childhood. If they are different, it follows that they are not equal. And for each culture, it is a given that their own is superior.

Part of that difference in how people think is reflected in language. When we say the word “freedom” it brings to mind something akin to liberty, implying a rule of law and mutual obligations limiting conduct, differentiating it from license. If a culture does not have a word for something, the concept does not exist in that culture. In many cultures, including Russia and China, because they missed out on the same seminal events in history that we share, the concept of freedom as we define it does not exist. They think differently than we do.

When dealing with foreign cultures, we must avoid the assumption that they are just like us. Because they aren’t. And assuming they are puts them inside our OODA loop.

Mind you, you may decide that I am full of bovine end product. But then again, that is freedom.

Subotai Bahadur

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:06 pm 139. luddy barsen:

i wish i was still uncertain, Whitehall –all due respect but to me his game is bell clear. the only mystery is what the hell happened to us to have put this faction in complete control of the government. That was insane, and qualifies as a fatal mistake. If we don’t come to great harm in the coming years, it’ll be due to luck or providence, not preparation or perspicacity.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:08 pm 140. Patriot Front:

John Bolton was on Greta tonight warning about Russia’s pending delivery of the S-300 missile system to Iran. This is a highly capable surface-to-air system that will make an Israeli attack nearly impossible. This transaction is expected to be finalized in a matter of months. Nukes or no nukes, with the S-300 SAMs online, what can be done to Iran… and who can do it?

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:40 pm 141. Richard Wilson:

Subotai : Trolls?Christ on a crutch, man! Your grasp of history is simplistic and off, you idgets are just like Obamas barmy army, anyone who disagrees with you you attack as a “troll” or demean as a “pompous fill-in-the-blank”, I have been reading PM since it began, Ron told me the comments section is filled with idgets, I had to come here and find out. The Right is doomed , which is sad, because the Dems have been hijacked by a mental case and somehow the neocons have hijacked conservatism.The party of relativism vs the party of reformed Marxists holding hands with gaunt Evangelicals as they skip thru the world changing the evilness into goodness.A literal reality of Yeat’s crazy jane to the Bishop: “…Love has pitched his mansion in/The place of excrement.” Politics in America is like a plague of locusts, this winged pestilence makes its subjects ridiculous and then devours them—-this gnashing of mandibles here is the same din on TV, on 99% of all Left websites, Right sites, going back, malinki Mongolka, leaving you to your hole, your grease,your terrible straining for Truth.
Trolls?Yep, they seem to be everywhere in America nowadays.

Sep 18, 2009 - 10:54 pm 142. Robohobo:

The zopilote’s are circling……

I LOL’ed at buckets comment about the possibility of The Zero with a big stick. It brought to mind one of my favorite speed/metal/punk (I am not sure where they guy fits in a genre of music) songs – “Chrome Koran” by Jerry Joseph and the Jackmormons. Here is some small lyrics (follow the link to the page):

“Chrome Koran”

I put the plaster in nine holes
Four were intentional,
Five were intended for me
I let the blood in to nine bowls
Five for the martyrs,
Four to fulfill prophecy

I didn’t come to bear witness
I’m simply shakin’ the tree
Yeah, shakin’ the tree

Yea I’m just trying to keep
The blood off my hands
One stop Bible and a chrome Koran
Chrome Koran

I see you out in a tidepool
You say you’re channeling
A kingdom under the sea
You tell me that language is oldschool
The way you’re handlin’
Don’t look healthy to me

I did not come for forgiveness
I’m just tryin’ to get it for free
Yeah, get some for free

Up to the plate, you say
I prove I’m a man
Cop shop donut and a chrome Koran
Chrome Koran

Miracle of science
Unexplainable to friends and clients
Indivisible, divided
Loyalties remaining undecided
Can’t touch it, can’t try it
Can’t believe you have the nerve to fly it
I can’t fuck it, I won’t buy it
You want the truth you gotta step outside
Step outside
Step outside
Step outside

You see me live in a sex show
I’m getting intimate
With my feminine side
You gotta say you’re surprised though
For all my posturing,
My abstinence and pride

Don’t want a piece of the action
I only wanted a ride
Yeah, only wanted a ride

It’s hard to trust me
With my d… in my hand
Sex shop Bible and a chrome Koran
Chrome Koran
Chrome Koran
Chrome Koran

In Ireland, the vernacular for wanting s-x is asking for a ‘ride’. Offering to take someone in your car is a ‘lift’. I emph’ed the part that came to mind! Profane I know, but….. maybe the current events call for that.

Charles @ 31:

[Link]Putin Seeks Trade Concessions After U.S. Missile Move

Holy smoke. He just demanded that we give him the keys to the country! I expect The Zero to ‘puppy-up’ to this.

E Hines @ 56:

….but Mr Obama is a very smart man.

Really? And you can prove this how? That he had the WH bought for him? Where is his scholarship? His grades in the “Ivy League” hallowed halls that is so exemplar? IOW, prove that assertion, sir. BTW, really a minor quibble. Mostly we agree.

Mark @ 59:

… It is a beautiful notion. As he makes the design decisions that bring us closer to that design, the world will, assuredly, see the right pieces fall into place?

Nice turn of phrase. It reminds me of those daydreams of my youth, those daydreams of forming the world into my view, my format. …… Then I grew up. Sadly, to realize the world is not to be formed by my daydreams. How long do we have to wait for The Zero to grow up?

LOTM @ 115:

The important thing is that they are back. That is a close leading indicator that something is due to happen. The surprise over the Summer was the dog that didn’t bark. We did not have the agitprop visitors and the tanks did not roll. Why not?

That the dog’s tail was not wagging, as it were. What will be the provocation this time through? Ukraine? Georgia? Armenia? I think Bibi saw the writing on the wall and made his homage to Moscow this summer to find out exactly what he would be allowed. I am sad about that one.

Richard Wilson @ 122:

wretchard! Troll spill on aisle 122! Clean up, please!

Hey, Richard, please, if we are such “Hiccuping yokels, Knee-jerk reactionaries, Panoptic salivating “born again(heretic)” Xhristians”, then why are you here? Go back whence you came, troll. Back under that bridge!

alex @ 124: We know that. It is not the system, it is the commitment to an ally. An ally that is now tossed under that 0bama bus. THAT is the point.

The 3 Conjectures now seem expanded outside of the sphere of the crescent moon and star.

The zopilote’s are circling……

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:03 pm 143. Robohobo:

Hmm, all posts seem to just disappear.

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:04 pm 144. steveaz:

Richard Wilson, your comments bring me up short. I’m not sure whether you are here to mock us, or to enlighten us – so I assume it’s both.

And I’ll play ball. Ostensibly, this is a thread exploring the effects of American disarmament in Europe in the face of two threats, one historical and one brand new. First, there’s Russia’s historical insecurity within her existing borders and her need for access to deep water seaports – nothing has altered this historic trajectory. Second, there’s the modern proliferation of nuclear technology to theocratic dictatorships like Iran. Both merit much conjecture, and, no matter whether a commentator’s conjecture tracks with Buckley’s or more closely matches, say, Barney Frank’s, each has something useful to add to the picture.

As for your comments, intentionally provocative as they are – I find them probing, too. For years now, it has been apparent to this observer that regional groups like the EU, amalgams of the remnants of the old Soviet Empire, and even China, would like to nullify America’s operative military and financial supremacy in global affairs. The fact that so many players seek a common goal is convincing enough for me to posit the following conjecture. Keep in mind, as you read this, your comments made me do it!

I argue that internationalism, for lack of a better word, is a desirable, and even inevitable, goal, but it is one that I believe needs to be managed very carefully. And I believe that the biggest difference between, say, a Republican like Bush, and a Democrat like Albright, is the pace at which internationalism should proceed at. The Republicans (here, I admit my leaning) want to take a “go-slow” approach that preserves the local, county, state and national electorates’ say in this process and the ultimate governing scheme that results. The Clinton-esque approach, in contrast, is haphazard and rushed, and overly concerned with meeting external parties’ demands while exhibiting a seemingly nonchalant attitude about the lack of influence awarded to democratic nation-states’ local democratic institutions.

One party desires a bottom-up approach built on preexisting structures, the other is asserting a top-down, etch-a-sketch approach that welcomes erasure of democratic institutions and that doesn’t feel the need to vet a blue print for internationalism’s final design in citizens’ forums.* I think that this difference is the crux of the matter.

So, why does this matter?

Well, consider in addition to these starkly different attitudes to internationalism the troubles Brussels is having getting Irish, French and Dutch citizens’ acquiescence to its proposed socialist federation the EU, and that the US’s revolutionary constitution is anathema to dictatorial social constructs like aristocracy, Communism and involuntary campusing (all three are endemic to socialist federations), and then the frictions of today’s international tensions – and the angst apparent in some worried comments here at BC – should become evident to you.

In the interest of keeping this comment short, I’ll end by proposing that there is a wide common ground where all should be able to rest comfortably before climbing together towards a new international order. If Russia, Iran, Denmark, France, China, Brazil and the United States of America (just to name a few) truly value their demos, that is, if they’re truly democratic nations, then nothing would entice any one of them to abandon their electorates’ views in a race to invent an international order that was not in accord with their citizens’ express wishes. And if they aren’t democratic, then, well, they’ll throw whole populations of their countrymen “under the bus” to beget impatiently any international order that they can, now.

I’m curious, which of these approaches would you favor, and why?
-Steve
*I see traces of this impatient, haphazard approach in US President Obama’s push to enact Single Payer Healthcare NOW!

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:06 pm 145. wretchard:

It is interesting how people talk about the missile defense shield as if it actually existed. It does not, and never has. It was a wet dream and damage caused was in perpetrating it existed and forcing allies in Europe to commit to something that was never going to be built.

Then what were the Russians incensed about? Ghosts? One can’t have it both ways. The “missile defense shield is useless” and the “missile defense shield is provocative” are mutually exclusive propositions. Let’s think about missile defense and its role in security. Does it keep the main peace? No. It is deterrence which still keeps the peace; missile defense is too uncertain, too limited to protect against a massive arsenal’s like Russia. But even a limited defense shield can be effective against a small arsenal like North Korea’s or Iran’s. In other words, it is effective against proxies.

The real threat that missile defense poses to America’s superpower enemies is that it degrades the threat of proxy warfare. During the Cold War and even today the only likely “hot wars” were between proxies. By creating a limited defense against an Iran-class foe any proxy who wishes to attack or threaten to attack (thereby acquiring a bargaining chip) faces an additional uncertainty. Is the threat credible? The same is true for those who may wish to risk attacking and then saying “sorry. We’re too poor and pitiful to annihilate.” Anyone who launches against the US thinking to claim “accident”, “uncontrollability” or in the case of radical Islam, a kind of insanity, must face some probabilty that the limited attack will fail. That probability reduces the credibility of proxy blackmail. What pray tell actually militates against Kim Jong Il’s extortion tactics? It is the fact that he cannot be certain that an attack against Tokyo or Hawaii won’t be shot out of the sky.

Obama’s rearchitecture of the system theoretically removes the diplomatically offensive component (i.e. treading on Russia’s “near abroad”) while retaining the defense against proxy attackers. Russia should have been happy if its intentions were pure; if it did not want to play the game of proxy war and only wanted to maintain the integrity of its core deterrent. That was why Gates so confidently asserted that the Russians would love it. They shouldn’t fear it. They shouldn’t have feared the initial defensive shield to begin with (the “wet dream that never existed” which Putin stayed up nights worrying about); but then that was never the point. The Russian goal may have been to get the US to concede in principle its vulnerability to a proxy attack; to stretch out its neck in atonement on some fake altar to peace; to delegitimize limited defenses as “dangerous” or “destabilizing”.

Yet the opposite is true: since deterrence is most stable when the game is played between superpowers, by reducing the capacity or rogue or unstability states to mess up the calculation, deterrence is actually enhanced. That’s why proliferation is bad unless proliferation is universal. It is bad because it allows unstble elements to enter into the calculation. Few have considered that missile defense is a de facto form of proliferation reduction. Clearly, if a limited arsenal is of no military use to small power they will not seek it. Why seek what is useless? So for this and many reasons, missile defense isn’t such a bad idea at all.

My fear is that the President, having conceded so much to Russia without getting anything tangible in return, may now double down again. Let’s give them more. After all, if Moscow has given Obama nothing for something, it hardly makes sense to stop there from his point of view. He wants that doggie in the window, so having paid the shopkeeper a $1,000 for a surly look, why not pay him $2,000 and see if it changes his mind? Presumably at some point the shopkeeper will hand over the doggie. Presumably.

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:12 pm 146. NahnCee:

Considering timelines:

1. We know that overseas money was dumped into Obama’s campaign coffers via the internet pre-election. Said illegal donations were never looked into by anyone official so we really don’t know how many millions or billions of rubles or riyals or yen Obama received from “over there”. Russia has been named previously as a possible dumper.

2. We can see that Obama is assiduously doing everything he can to sell America down the river; i.e., to remake the United States into a tinplate USSR complete with socialism, marxism, a proposed brownshirt / KGB internal security system, a big brother state in charge of everything including a lousy health care system and … ta DA! … czars!

3. Dude affiliated with Obama becomes dead of an aspirin overdose in Chicago (yeah, right). Body and other issues about the death are hurriedly shuffled off and hushed up, but many onlookers agree that it was a particularly clumsy suicide which stinks mightily of murder and/or assassination. It also might be a public warning about what will happen to certain people (or their families) if they don’t cooperate with their masters.

4. Obama begins overt and public process of dismantling American toys, thereby giving his good buddy Putin free rein and access to do pretty much any little thing he might have a mind to do from now on.

What is the quid to whose pro quo?

And, how long do you think it will take before Obama has us softened up enough for Vladimir to run for President of the United States of America, or will they just appoint him President, since by that time ACORN will have jimmied up the whole concept of democracy to the point that we don’t even have rigged elections any more?

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:12 pm 147. Robohobo:

wretchard – I get a constant “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!” but the comment never ever shows up. I should add, except for these short posts.

Please contact me via email to let me know my status in this blog.

Thanks,
The Hobo

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:21 pm 148. presbypoet:

138 Buddy,
I vote for providence. Prayer may be the most important thing we do now. Looking at America’s history, much worse has happened. In 1941, the Japanese attack at Pearl was in a strange way a blessing. It got us into a war that needed to be fought, with casualties that sound high, but could have been much worse. The carriers weren’t home. The oil storage facilities weren’t hit, etc.
In 1942, at Midway, the pilot from the Tone flew directly over the American task force, and didn’t see it. So their carriers had decks littered with bombs from planes being readied to strike our carriers, when our dive bombers made their attack. Midway, the miracle too few truly understand. That glorious day in June.

In 2001, while 2,000 died, if Rick and others hadn’t sacrificed themselves, the toll would have been so much higher. The Capital would probably still be in ruins. The only problem is He has restrained His hand so much, too many ignore our peril. I pray we will not need the next wake up call. It comes with a much higher price.

Today, darkness seems so close. One great danger for those who see, is to get discouraged. God has not yet abandoned us. His history is to allow you to suffer for the consequences of sin. Just read Lincoln on the Civil War. Was it blood payment for the sin of slavery?

America has faced much darker times than now. May this become a time of refining and restoration. A time to turn from our path of doom, and turn to embrace freedom and opportunity. Perhaps a mixture of Prayer and sackcloth?

Sep 18, 2009 - 11:49 pm 149. bob:

Sometimes I wish I’d never heard of the Bible. For the life of me, I could never search the ’scriptures’ hoping to find what may happen, say, a week from next Tuesday. Seems to me prophecy is basically a system of metaphors in which a vaguely remembered better – man finding himself at the bottom of a U shaped curve – is desired to be recovered, maybe even surpassed, by a better or even best in the future, which future might even be thought of as a possible state of mind.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:06 am 150. luddy barsen:

Well it’s gonna be your species’ oldest earliest thoughts on the meanings and states of being human in nature, bob, whether it’s supernatural or not.

I hear ya, presbypoet –there’s no doubt that the wages of sin are death –we’ll see to it, with or without intercession. Or maybe that IS intercession.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:28 am 151. presbypoet:

Bob,
The problem is that we want to take control ourselves. So rather than being thankful of the warning, we think we are something special because we “know” something others don’t know.

One way to understand the Bible is that is it a plumbline to use to determine if the voice we hear is divine or demonic. Prophecy is real, but it tends to be of the “Be careful what you pray for. Your prayer will be answered.” Or our response to it, “You want me to do WHAT!” Ask Moses, Noah, Jonah & Abram about what God asked/demanded of them.

The problem is that we think the Bible is God’s only word. We miss the message of quantum mechanics, which I call God’s footprints/fingerprints on the universe. We miss the still small voice speaking to us in silence. We miss knowing God intimately. We think the god we have in a box is God.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:56 am 152. dtmack:

Buddy L – good to see your comments again.

I think we’ve screwed up royally vs Russia in the last dozen years or so, and we’re starting to see the results now.

I agree with R Wilson that Russian cooperation in the supression of radical Islam would have been very useful, and that we’ve missed that possibility because we’ve humiliated them at every opportunity.

The missile shield deployment is a thorn in Russias side, even if, as argued, it would never have the capability to shield from an all out attack by Russia. If we flip the roles, there is no way we would accept Russian deployment of something like this in Cuba, regardless of our assessment of it’s capabilities. It would be supremely foolish to do so.

Add to that the fact that the deployment was announced as a tit-for-tat for the recent unpleasantness in Georgia, and the political ante goes up.

We shortsightedly embarrassed them when they were down, notably in the Kosovo conflict and it’s aftermath. I’m not making any excuses for Russia, nor do I think that they are peace loving. Russia has had an interest in Eastern Europe and the Balkans for hundreds of years, and we ignored that because we could. As things have escalated we’ve been carried off by events, rather than having a longer view and trying to control them.

Our influence in places like Georgia, etc., is based on a lot of things, most of them non-military. If Russia invaded Georgia, there’s no way we would directly inntervene militarily (see Czechoslovakia 1968). The main deterrent is Russian reluctance to anger a strong economic and military power.

Our military is now engaged elsewhere, and wouldn’t be used in any event absent an invasion of Poland or something like that. Our economy sucks, and we’re borrowing 50 cents out of every dollar we spend, with no end in sight. We’re politically divided, and we’ve elected Barack Obama as President.

We’re at a weak point in our history, and Putin surely knows that. I think he, and probably most of the Russian people, are taking great pleasure in rubbing our faces in it, for a change.

That we find ourselves here is a testament to some incredibly shortsighted policies, both Domestic and Foreign, and they don’t start with BO.

Sep 19, 2009 - 1:33 am 153. luddy barsen:

dtmack, thanks –and i agree with you. Whether solo person or vast nation, nothing for very long seems to suffer from insufficient humility. The condition self-corrects with cosmic glee.

Sep 19, 2009 - 2:08 am 154. Mongoose:

Wretchard: You are giving Obama, WAY too much credit, particularly for honor and good will towards America. He is selling us out, he is not “rearchitecting” the “international stsyem” by attempting some “maneuver”, however clumsy or inept that maneuver may be. He is just doing the bidding of his paymasters.

And you inadvertently admit this yourself by pointing that he gains nothing in of his “maneuver” and loses much. Where, in all of his “tactics” used in pursuing his domestic obsessions, has he ever acted with this sort of attempt to placate other’s “demands”. Well, nowhere. In fact, the exact opposite “approach, if one can call it that, has obtained. He is in the pocket of foreign interest, and he justifies it to himself by means of his anti-american, left wing, academic nostrums.

The Cold War was a creation of the hindbound American Right so far has he is concerned. If we are seeing any fundamental application of this toxic, warped notion of the world and history it is mdrly a a means to justify and rationalize treason and betrayal, and little more.

His various masters have their own agendas, and no, they are not “health care” or “the environment”, combined they amount to the destruction of all that makes the USA a powerful nation. It is destruction of America itself they are after. Obama is merely a puppet on their strings. Putin is one of them, obviusly.

Are we really to consider that at 4th rate, Chicago machine politician and so intellectual hacks for the Kennedy Fchool of Foreign Studies are out there implementing some grand vison? No, the deal are being cut, and the masters of events are just letting fools like Obama indulge in “sound and fury” on te stage.

The question is, will someone in the Democrat power establishment in State, Intel or Defense wake up and realize what is going on and then do something about it. There goose will get cooked too in all of this beserking, betrayal and ruination.

He is doing us great harm. He is destroying us as a super power on all fronts, militarily, economically, diplomatically, institutionally and, most importantly spiritually. It may be beyond repair as it is. The sad thing is that the lack of outcry about it exposes that a great many of our countrymen could care less about this.

Sep 19, 2009 - 2:13 am 155. Matthew:

What’s all this talk about russia? I thought this thing was supposed to be about iran….

Sep 19, 2009 - 2:54 am 156. Marie Claude:

Matthew,

LMAO, yes, we were sold the missiles as arms against Iran !

so the Russians were right to complain !!!!

Sep 19, 2009 - 3:21 am 157. Marie Claude:

151. dtmack,

great comment, first time I read an honnest comment about Russia from your people.

I remember the years before 1990, those little russian dollies on ice-skating, went once for a show where they were invited for making the attraction, as I was among the VIP, I had access to them, and managed to talk with them.

They were all dreaming of America !

Not anymore, just have a look at their papers and or blogs right now !

During the Elsine years, instead of helping the new democraty, your country, Germany… were like vultures grabbing what it was possible, and placing lucridious investments, from wich some former nomenklatura chiefs managed to make a life as mafiosi and lobbies in the chocked Russia.

Putin might be this KGB fellow, but his agenda is to restaure Russia as a lifable country for her inhabitants, he is reverred for that by the most part of the Russians.

Besides, one leader of America style would not have been able to make it, Russia empire is too big, too different regions, too different people, St Petersburg isn’t Moscow… nor Irkoutz, nor …

Your former administration managed to break that beautiful toy that was dreaming of your country, of capitalism

You’ve made them nationalist again, and be sure that they will not trust an american leader anymore.

as far as Polish and Czech, they wanted to benefit of your charity, just that they just learnt a bit late the same lesson that the Russians learnt a decade earlier

Sep 19, 2009 - 3:56 am 158. Will:

Yeah, wait till it’s too late !!

Sep 19, 2009 - 3:58 am 159. Mike2:

151. dtmack:

Your point about Kosovo is well taken. I argued the same position at the time. Russia has been historically protective of the Serbs and our treatment of them was stupid to say the least. It didn’t even help us with the Muslims who hate us no matter what we do. This might go down as the mistake the Bush administration made that will have the worst long range consequences for the West. Russians have long memories.

I have feared for a long time now that we will have terrible trouble with Russia. It is much more dangerous now that it has been liberated from the stultifying effects of Communism.

156. Marie Claude:

I believe that an honest evaluation of the worst mistakes that were made by an American administration after the fall of the Communist regime were made by the Clinton administration. That’s when Americans were directly complicit in the horrendous corruption taking place and when the Russian Mafia, aka the KGB, was allowed to infiltrate American society and businesses.

Sep 19, 2009 - 4:21 am 160. vivo:

“President Obama’s public withdrawal settles the debate: it sends a clear signal to Eastern Europe that, whatever their official NATO status may be, there is a definite limit to the amount of support they can expect from the current administration.”

It’s time the Europeans assume their own defense systems. Political wars are not going to be fought with expensive rocket weapons. Guerrilla warfare is the norm (terrorism). And our Economy is not able to support wasteful weapons. Our health care is one top priority.

“Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told Chavez in Moscow on Thursday that Russia was “ready to consider the possibility of cooperation in nuclear energy.””

Chavez can’t carry a nuclear program. It’s probably just a political move. He’s got enough problems and not enough technically trained people.

“What benefits will the world get from the administration’s actions? What diplomatic breakthroughs? What engagements? Let us wait and see.”

Exactly. Nobody has grasped the ramifications of this strategy. Neocoms just feel their reduced rockets was a swift castration. Ouch!

Sep 19, 2009 - 4:34 am 161. Marie Claude:

Mike 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Es2ww1uBTQ

Sep 19, 2009 - 5:23 am 162. Bohemond:

Vivo: “Our health care is one top priority.”

I thought ‘our health care’ wasn’t supposed to cost a dime. Remember?

“Nobody has grasped the ramifications of this strategy”

Including Obama.

Or rather, what strategy? Obama was marching for unilateral disarmament in college and nothing has changed. Come to think of it, he was rallying for the removal of US missiles from Europe- one of Yuri Andropov’s major goals.

Sep 19, 2009 - 6:00 am 163. Tomp:

Having America as an ally is extremely dangerous.

Sep 19, 2009 - 6:24 am 164. Steve J. Nelson:

The only thing I agree with the critics of this decision about is that the historic timing was indeed unfortunate. They could have waited one more week. But it is nice to read some comments down here at the bottom of the thread from Belmont Clubbers who are not predicting Russian tanks rolling in to Warsaw after this “appeasement”.

Others have correctly pointed out that a majority of Poles and Czechs opposed the systems as militarily useless (for them) provocations of Russia and more likely exploiting their country’s territory as bargaining chips in a larger game (hard to argue with that last point now). Maybe the minority of Czechs and Poles that favored them were more powerful (here’s looking at you Radek Sikorski, married to Anne Applebaum, how goes the PL lobby influence over the WaPost editorial page these days?), but both nations are still NATO members, and Russia has no interest in refighting World War II.

Ukraine is an entirely separate issue that will be resolved in the next twenty years with probably the western regions shaking out from the eastern regions and the Crimea, the latter of which was a part of Russia until the 1950s. But why would Russia want to annex Ukraine and pick up its problems? Far easier to stay on the outside looking in than deal with the fallout. I just don’t want American boys dying to defend a wildly unpopular government in Kyev and that’s why extending NATO membership to Ukraine, in addition to being anti-democratic and arrogantly dismissive of Ukrainian majority wishes, is a seriously bad idea.

The Poles are going to get more F-16s and SAMs as compensation. Their lobbying clout in Washington almost guarantees that even if they can’t pay for the weapons now, Washington will lend them the money to go forward anyhow just like Israel gets loans to buy U.S. arms. Russia should understand that Poland has historic fears and sensibilities just like they do and look the other way, besides they are also making money selling arms to Venezuela which is far less stable and responsible than PL. The biggest Clinton (and we owe Albright a lot for this) mistakes in my view was expanding NATO membership beyond Poland’s frontiers, to the former Soviet republics, as well as bombing the hell out of Yugoslavia. Those were the two betrayals that made Russia think we really were out to screw them and encircle them at every turn and profited from their humiliation in the Nineties.

The other arguments being advanced by the usual military industrial complex suspects/neocon Russophobes are blatantly bogus. Japan is more likely to go nuclear because of Poland? Only Wall Street Journal readers so brainwashed by that editorial page’s ridiculous Russophobia can take such arguments seriously, while the WSJ goes on kissing Chinese ass because Uncle Sugar doesn’t have a prayer of maintaining his largesse without China buying our debt. Please. Japan is going to keep its options open, as any rational state would needing insurance in case two historic adversaries (in case a united Korea hangs on to NoKo nukes after reunification) and China ever decides to get aggressive.

As for Georgia, Russia does not want to conquer that country. The road to Tblisi was open in August 2008 and they did not take it, as Russia’s military cannot occupy hostile territory for an extended period of time. They already took the parts where they were wanted. If the Russians had abandoned the Ossetians, their most loyal Orthodox Christian allies in the Caucases, that region would be even more unstable than it is now.

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:02 am 165. Steve J. Nelson:

Wretchard, with all due respect, America did get something in return for this concession — American resupply of Afghanistan via Russian rails and airspace. When Bush was mocked for looking in to Putin’s eyes and getting a sense of his soul, he did at least get fully armed American bombers flying over Russia on their way to bomb the Taliban a few months after the meeting in Slovakia (or was it Slovenia?). The question is, it seems most conservatives don’t think that resupply is worth a bucket of warm spit, maybe because now under Obama they have lost the will to keep fighting in Afghanistan or don’t see Obama committed to victory, just not losing ala LBJ in Vietnam. Or am I missing something?

And Subotai, the idea that Russian trolls from Moscow are pouring cold water on the war porn fantasies in the comments threads here is flattering, but probably not real. I’m an American citizen writing from the U.S. and I’m tired of our anti-Russia policies and think tanks in Washington persisting zombie-like as if the Cold War were still on. I am not so naive either as to believe that the Colored Revolutions were entirely spontaneous affairs and that George Soros is not occasionally a front for the US government, anymore than Russian oligarchs are entirely free of their government’s wishes. And the commenters here pointing out that Washington’s policies in the Balkans won us exactly zero friends in the Muslim world and destroyed a lot of potential friendship/alliances in the Orthodox Christian world are dead on.

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:10 am 166. RAH:

I am not surprised . Bush tried to rush this and had delays with Poland until after the Georgian crisis. That crisis focused the Polish on their dangers. Despite Bush State Department insistance this was only to restrain Iran once they get the nuclear warhead on their existing launch capability. It was also an implicit threat against Russian aggression.

Russia knew this and objected. They threatened Poland and reaimed their missile.

Obama only wants to focus on the domestic front and will let the rest of the world go to hell.

Israel just finished a secret talk with Medeyev about the arms being shipped from Russia to Iran.

Israel now has no choice but to strike at Iran.

Ade’s foolish hope that Obama has a grand plan is wishful thinking. There is no reason to assume that Putin and Medeyev will pay on any implicit feeling they owe anything. If Obama was to make gifts that does not obligate them

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:22 am 167. Steve J. Nelson:

Lastly, on the question of the system’s capability, I did not mean to imply that it was militarily useless for the U.S. Just for the Poles and Czechs to directly defend their territory, a prospect about as likely as another war between France and Germany (between slim and none). In fact, the real point about the system besides scalability (ten interceptors today, perhaps hundreds tomorrow) that everyone has ignored is the capabilities of the radar to snoop deep into Russian territory. I can only imagine how Belmont Clubbers would react to Russia placing a missile defense radar in Cuba with interceptors in Poland, ostensibly for our protection, with perhaps the occasional Chinese officer joining the crew as well.

But any radar that can track all aircraft in Russian airspace all the way to the Urals is more than a symbolic irritant. It would be the same for us if the shoe were on the other foot.

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:23 am 168. Kent Gatewood:

Can Standard missiles in the eastern Med hit Iranian rockets fired at Europe (out of range)? Plus, Once permission has been given arn’t the Standards chasing not coming onto the target?

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:01 am 169. geoffb:

#74,

“3) The left wing of the American Democratic party has always cooperated with Russian Communism.”

The New Left was assigned the task of taking de facto control of the Democratic Party and was assisted in it doing so by the Communist Party of the USSR acting through their cutout the CPUSA. They managed to do so quite awhile ago. What is happening now is the goal of all those long term efforts.

It has parallels to Iraq. The fall of the Soviet Union and the fall of Saddam did not signal victory but the shift to another, long prepared for, phase of a continuing war. If enough of those who cheered on the Obama victory can finally see where it leads then a surge type strategy may be usable and have a chance for an actual victory.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:03 am 170. Triton'sPolarTiger:

@137 buddy and @147 presbypoet

Indeed, the darkness does seem to be close, and I believe millions of our countrymen sense it and are preparing for it, even if they’re not quite sure what “it” is… how else to explain the incredible, on-going shortage of just about any sort of ammo that matters (since we may be forced at some point to start shooting our own food… or perhaps larger “game” in some coming unthinkable nightmare)… I remember earlier this year noticing that the seed racks at the local home fixit store were significantly understocked… and after perhaps five separate visits spread out over four weeks or so, I gave up buying any of those nifty tomato plant supports and opted for used lengths of quarter-round in concert w/periwinkle ribbon left over from one of the kid’s birthday parties…

From the evangelical perspective, it seems that there is much going on within our borders that would royally hack off God… …

Yet there is still the matter of those millions who still honor Him in their daily lives, pray for the country (and by extension for those whose only goal in life seems to be ruining that same country), give of their time and treasure to those genuinely in need…

I sincerely believe that Providence must have been behind some of the amazing examples of our survival in times past… the question is thus: Have we finally screwed the pooch? Have we finally removed ourselves from His Protection? Is the appearance of this governing nightmare proof positive that we’re circling the drain?

I (cautiously) think not… if God was willing to spare Sodom for a mere ten righteous persons (surely a smaller percentage of that population than the millions of freedom-loving, God-honoring patriots we all know in our daily lives), then one must imagine it is possible that we’re not done…

NOT YET. NOT BE A LONG SHOT.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:03 am 171. Wadeusaf:

“Putin and Obama are Christians?! I thought liberation theology was heterodox.”

I didn’t realize Putin was a member of Trinity? Is president Obama still looking for a church. Perhaps we can look forward to witnessing the Church of Vladamir? The church of Oprah, alas, just will not do. And here all these years I though jimmah was a Baptist.

But still in all the Nobel address of jimmah contained the following, which may explain some of the current cartatarian moves,

“War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other’s children.”

“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.”

“God gives us the capacity for choice. We can choose to alleviate suffering. We can choose to work together for peace. We can make these changes – and we must.”

On the surface I cannot find fault with Jimmiah’s world view. It is in the implementation of the sentiments above where Jimmah went horribly wrong.

I do not believe that president Obama is as naive as Jimmah, while still expressing more or less a similar world view. A combination that fills me at once with equal parts fear and dread. president Obama’s performance thus far has not been especially promising, so trusting him on relations with Russia is difficult at best.

The system as best can be understood that was supposed to be installed in Russia’s near-far-ious neighbors yards was not deterrence, was of no use against a true twelver, but did create enough tension between Iranian desires and Russian requires that the ability to move forward in any talks with Iran were negated. Were that the case Iran would have a free hand in proxyitising Syrian, and Palestinian and Venesulian ambition.

The problem is not only between Russia and the House of Saud, but between the US and Iran. The question is where does president Obama, who has open affections for Syria, Venezuela and Hamas, figure deterence/defence is best applied. The only point of agreement up till now has been Afghanistan. And thus slowly an agreement on Pakistan is displaying a shape of sorts(I think).

Long on trust, short on verify. I would be impressed, if it is true, but for the economic-mess we’ve been promised too.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:07 am 172. Al_Batross:

“When dealing with foreign cultures, we must avoid the assumption that they are just like us. Because they aren’t. And assuming they are puts them inside our OODA loop”. Subotai Bahadur@137.

Which is of course what the Leftist narrative does. Indeed, it goes further, by holding those cultures to be actually superior in wisdom, virtue, and eco-friendliness. Thus, any perceived devious behaviour is merely projection from our twisted conservative psyches. The threat is not honoured. because there is no threat.
The Russians are slightly problematic, being less obviously virtuous than, say, Bangladeshis, being pale, having few children, and producing lots of carbon (lots of snow is no excuse). Nor do they get much sympathy for “the Tatar Yoke”, which left such a heavy mark, though that can become a positive if they are viewed as Europeans whose culture comes entirely from Central Asia. (I read somewhere that the Russian word for “chains” is of Mongol origin. I don’t know if that is correct, but it sounds right).
I agree about Russia’s consequent isolation, which moulded the country in ways which even the titanic efforts of Peter and the intelligent rule of Catherine, both deservedly “The Great”, could do little to change. However, digressing a bit, I don’t agree that the Kievan Princes would necessarily have survived if they had understood the Mongols better, and submitted peacefully.
If the Kievans had had access to what we would call good intel, they would have known of the fall of cities such as Bukhara and Samarqand to Genghis Khan himself in 1220. Both cities had garrisons of mercenaries, but both garrisons rode out to escape or join the Mongols, who killed them either way. Bukhara surrendered without resistance, and was then subjected to a terrible massacre and set ablaze, the survivors mostly being taken away for use as human shields in future sieges. Samarqand surrendered without resistance, and was apparently spared after a huge protection payment, though most of the inhabitants may have actually been killed (see JB Glubb, “The Lost Centuries”). Such intel might only have convinced the Kievans to commit their souls to God, and fight to the end rather than surrender to such uncertain mercy.
So, submission might work, or it might not, and perhaps such apparent inconsistency was actually a Mongol strategy, to be an enemy who cannot be known, who is always inside the loop, and thus cannot be defeated. This has echoes in the way that the Islamists have been toying with countries such as Spain in recent years.
And there is a Muslim view that Genghis Khan, a “blue sky monotheist”, was a sort of proto-Muslim, and that Tamerlane, a Muslim who claimed to be the spiritual heir of the Great Khan, was a hero of Islam, even though most of his several million victims were Muslims. (see Akbar Ahmed’s “Living Islam” to learn about Tamerlane’s great love of poetry … ). The “religion of peace” folly still holds many in it’s thrall.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:12 am 173. Wadeusaf:

Steve J Nelson

Agree with (or at least I get) the scaling aspect,

“But any radar that can track all aircraft in Russian airspace all the way to the Urals is more than a symbolic irritant. It would be the same for us if the shoe were on the other foot.”

Don’t Satellites perform that function?

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:14 am 174. Triton'sPolarTiger:

“NOT BE A LONG SHOT” should be “NOT BY A LONG SHOT”

Speling waz nevar mai strongg pointe.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:19 am 175. coisty:

Wretchard, with all due respect, America did get something in return for this concession — American resupply of Afghanistan via Russian rails and airspace

I’m glad somebody here has been paying attention. I didn’t read many responses but I certainly hope Steve J Nelson wasn’t the first to mention the obvious as his post is #164!

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:20 am 176. geoffb:

“American resupply of Afghanistan via Russian rails and airspace”

Russia, in this, is playing the same role we did in the Iran-Iraq conflict. Allowing both sides to bleed themselves dry but never win. Obama will help that effort along with his ROE and other decisions.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:35 am 177. coisty:

There’s nothing Christian about the Rus’. Not after butchering 14M Ukrainians and White Russians through deliberate mass starvation in the ’30s.

There was nothing Christian about those in charge of the USSR when that happened. Though Latvians and Georgians (both Christian nations) were overrepresented in the leadership of the USSR and its secret police Jews were even more overrepresented. So blaming Russian Christians for the crimes of others seems rather bizarre, if not obscene. Besides the USSR was officially atheist.

Russia is not the USSR. Today Russia is more Christian than the USA were schools can’t have Christmas parties and no one on TV dares say “Merry Christmas” but instead mutter the vacuous “Happy Holidays”. Russians did not elect Barack Hussein Obama. It is time for cold warriors to grow up and see the world as it is today not as they imagine it was forty years ago. Everywhere that America dominates cultural Marxism is the religion, not Christianity. That is not the case where the Russians dominate. I’ll take Putin’s realist Christian Russia over Obama/ACLU/CNN America any day.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:38 am 178. NahnCee:

“I remember the years before 1990, those little russian dollies on ice-skating, went once for a show where they were invited for making the attraction, as I was among the VIP, I had access to them, and managed to talk with them.”

Ah, yes. Russian dollies on ice skates — the ultimate situation where Russia and France *always* ally in throwing votes in competitions. “I’ll vote for yours if you’ll vote for ours. And maybe if we cheat REAL good we can beat those damned Americans.”

///

“…the idea that Russian trolls from Moscow are pouring cold water on the war porn fantasies in the comments threads here is flattering, but probably not real.”

Mr. Nelson, we’ve seen it before here at Belmont Club, a sudden influx of posters with very bad grammar standing up for the Russian point of view. You might want to search back through the archives during the late Georgian invasion if you want an example of what we’re talking about. Personally, I think it’s a compliment that Vladimir thinks Wretchard is important enough to keep an eye on.

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:58 am 179. alright:

where miss bitter. com operates :

http://www.f**kfrance.com/read.html?postid=1616671

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:08 am 180. Marie Claude:

nahn cee, do you remember that girl, what was her name again ? that broke a leg with a baseball bate to a concurrent ? uh, American one !

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:13 am 181. RAH:

A test from our Alaskan base took control of all the interceptors. That ability was built into the missile defense system. That meant that missile defense was under US control only and not Poland.

The loss of the radar is a shame it would have been useful to track not only missiles from Iran but also other objects in the air.

However the radar would have been vulnerable to Russian spies s and they would have learned a lot of the tech.

This rush to give away our tech superiority is shameful.

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:15 am 182. dan:

I believe Russia granted use of its land/air routes last year – after bribing $2B for Manas Air base.

Russia is a Christian nation and continued to be, among many Russian people, even during Communism. Since 1991, there has been a large ‘born again’ Russian Orthodoxy revival in and outside of Russia. Nevertheless, the orthodox church is an instrument of the KGB, and uses russian orthodox church abroad/outside of russia as venues for subversion.

The radar’s ability to see into Russian SW missile testing (actually mentioned within the first dozen or so posts in this thread) is a response to the fact that it is Russia that provides missiles to Iran, NK, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Hezbollah, Venezuela – all of which could as easily opt for strategies in which they accomodated themselves to the international order rather than joining in Russia’s campaign to subvert it. Russia/Iran signed the Natanz agreement in 1998, for example.

lastly, Russia knows very well that USA is not an aggressor. Russia itelf invented international terrorism, armed Saddam, including the majority of his WMDs, and of course were the instigators of the Afghan crisis beginning in 1964, not 1979. Russia’s “paranoia” is not paranoia, it is pure aggression. Their attitude is not “they’re going to attack us!” but “they know we’re f—ing with them and their going to attack us before we are ready to attack them!”

There is no need to have recourse to Russia pre-Soviets. The Soviets’ aggression was not based on fear of Mongol invasion, it was based on a burning desire for World Revolution.

Finally, Russia does not “get” to veto Poland and Czech Republic’s wishes to host the missile/radar installations; Russia does not “get” to regard these countries as its front/back yard. Simply Russia “demands” that we should regard them as such, and it enforces that demand by – for example – putting supply of NATO Afghan coalition forces at the mercy of its whims. It also provides strategic technology to the avowed enemies of the West.

What if it did not do that? What if it just took its gigantic resources and intelligent people and harnessed them for mutually-beneficial commercial competition? What if it joined the rest of the Security COuncil nations in pressuring obnoxious, deadly and destabilizing groups such as HAMAS and Hezbollah and the Islamic Revolutoin of Iran to behave in a reasonable way? What if? It could easily have done so. Instead it complains about not enough US money and that we did not honor its Soviet world-infrastructure of agents and armies. Instead it uses its armies of intelligence officers and agents of influence to corrupt and demoralize and subvert the interntional order. Simply looking at its behavior throughout the Iran affair is enough to establish the truth of my characterizations. It is Obvious.

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:17 am 183. Marie Claude:

http://www.f**kfrance.com

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Sep 19, 2009 - 9:18 am 184. another Chuck:

If this was part of a grand bargain between the US and Russia, I’d feel dirty about screwing the Poles and the Cheks (sp?) but I’d see the advantages. A Washington-Moscow pact would belt the northern hemisphere in a zone of mutual security, prosperity and energy. The West’s oil and gas problems would be solved. Deprived of their oil revenues, the Islamic world would rot away forgotten in their 7th century. It would buy Russia time to fill its maternity wards and China would have to expand elsewhere than into the Russian far-east. Moscow and Washington have much to talk about. Putin probably can see it but needs somebody of his calibre in the White House to see it too. Fat chance.

And Obama? An empty fool. I think his grand vision is to go down in history as the Great Liberator of Mankind from the Fear of Nuclear Extinction. Scrapping the missiles in Eastern Europe is a gesture to make the Russians get all sentimental and huggy so they’ll sign some grandiloquent arms treaty with him. They’ll cheat of course, and well they should. If Chinese and Moslem demographics is a strategic weapon, then for Russia nukes are a defensive weapon.

Meanwhile all the US has accomplished here is to show once again that it is shifty and clownish. More capitals than Warsaw and Prague are taking note.

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:28 am 185. alex:

Hello Wretchard #144, thank you for an intelligent response. It is a pleasure to discuss with individuals thinking through before posting.

The Missile defense shield wasn’t out of design stage, other posters here are debating Russian fear of what, blueprints..? Russian space technology is not that far behind US, in some cases it is more advanced. They know exactly what we are capable of, it could not have been actually deploying this wet dream in eastern Europe that was causing all the fuss.

Real Missile defense exists in Chemical laser platforms; orbiting satellite, ship, airborne, truck and rail. This is actual effective defense against missiles and in production.
If anything the laser program would cause the greatest concern. All that is needed is an Airport, seaport, even wide avenue for truck to be deployed is enough to provide laser system to set up and protect region.
This is the problem facing nations that believe their missiles can be intercepted.

Maybe it was a ruse, to divert attention from another program, research, or who knows what. A bargaining chip for something not related..but i cannot believe Russia took the defense shield as a serious threat.

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:28 am 186. Mongoose:

Alex, You are rather misinformed about the state of the missile shield, either that or you do not have much knowledge of the process of weapons system design or implementation . We have defense missile in silos in Alaska, and the X-band platform ready to put into place– the democrats are holding it up, that is all. We have been quite beyond the desgn phase for years.

I suggest that you do some real research before you make such mistaken comments as “The Missile defense shield wasn’t out of design stage”. it is been put of the the first spiral design phase for quite some time. THAADS are out in the field as are mid range interceptors on some naval craft, and, as i said about, the interrupters in Alaska, The navy’s next batch of AB’s will support them, and some boats are being refitted now, there are at least two cruisers fitted right nowq with the proper tubes, fire controls and X=bands The missles and the kinetic kill devices on those war heads are in production manufacture. The EU system consists of the same system in Alaska. It is not “in design”.

So you are quite wrong in your assertions. Of course, the Russians are well aware of this–that is what they are “afraid of”, not “blueprints”. They evidently know wo to use the internet. You should try it too.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:09 am 187. luddy barsen:

One reason you feel that way, coisty, is that thirty or so national journalists who might tell you different are full of lead or polonium and busy pushing up daisies.

Nevertheless, tho that needs saying, i can’t help but kinda sorta agree with your sentiment.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:11 am 188. geoffb:

Christians and Russia.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:12 am 189. erc rodson:

No geopolitical comments from me, you other folks are doing a great job as usual.

However, in re: the location and purpose of the missile sites in Poland and the Czech Republic, try a simple experiment.

Take a globe and a piece of string. Lay the string on the surface of the globe so that it runs from Iran, over Poland and then see where it ends up going West. You will find that it is somewhere in the coastal arc from Washington D.C. to Boston and includes New York City.

Now do the same thing with Iran and the Czech Republic. You will find the extended (ballistic) path covers much of the Southeastern seaboard of the US, including Washington D.C. at the Northern end. (The path is actually pretty much parallel to the coastline.)

There is some imprecision in this experiment, since the exact location of the launch sites and the exact location of the missile defense sites are not defined. Moreover, if the missiles have more than ballistic capabilities, some deviation from a pure balistic trajectory is possible.

Finally, take the string and run it from the various parts of Russia toward the various parts of the US. You will find that none of the potential paths go over Poland or the Czech Republic. They all go near the North Pole. All ballistic paths between points on the Earth’s surface are parabolic and are arcs of great circles. Also, to shoot down a missile(or an aircraft), you have a much easier task with a head on shot than a deflection shot (at an angle between the two paths).

Conclusion: The anti-missile installations were not to guard against a Russian attack. The US knew what they were doing with their Distant Early Warning (DEW) line back in the Fifties and so did the Soviets with their ring of radars in Northern Siberia. If the US and Russia exchange ICBM’s, it will be over the Pole, (not the Poles). Cruise missiles and aircraft don’t follow the same rules, which is why cruise missiles were a destabilizing factor when they were introduced to the mix.

To a large degree, missile warfare is chess, not poker. You can disguise your intentions and capabilities, but the physics are the same for everyone. Technology varies but tends to even out in the long run.

As to using the radar to watch Russia: honestly, I don’t think the Russians do much we don’t watch on satellite feed and vice versa. And, any installation in either Poland or the Czech Republic would be extremely vulnerable to a preemptive strike if the balloon went up.

Don’t expect any serious laser weaponry anytime soon. Lasers are wonderful things but the big ones are very bulky and hard to deploy. Dust, smoke, clouds and fog all defeat them.

That said, back to you folks.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:31 am 190. coisty:

One reason you feel that way, coisty, is that thirty or so national journalists who might tell you different are full of lead or polonium and busy pushing up daisies.

I’m not saying Putin is great, but compared to the Western leaders intent on deconstructing their own nations he is an improvement.

Freedom of the press is often cited as a reason Russia is not a democracy. Fair enough, but look at the US and British MSM. Both are closer to being stenographers for Obama rather than reporters.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:32 am 191. coisty:

coisty; I do not know where you get your info, but you are wrong about Russia today.

You are describing some dream Russia of yours, not the real Russia. It is not some sort of “christian nation” and certainly not a “pragmatic” one. It is in the middle of a deep political and economic crisis and impoverished outside of the main cities. It is a gangster state, really. We could end our crises here tomorrow as they are completely artificial. Russia’s are quite real and long term.

Not much has changed there except is there more money, some greater freedoms, though they are mostly superficial ones, and people down the ladder can get a little more money. A small middle class of sorts has developed, but it mostly services the oligarchy. Russia is not some sort of “Christian Nation” in the very real sense that the USA is.

As Putin get formally back into power and tightens he grip, you will see what little real economic growth there is dry up, as well as see what middle class there is destroyed. It is all alarge qusi-state owned industries and a shadow government.
You take your life in your hands by going against them. For a nation of 140 million, outside of the Gas business, please name one even regional size Russian firm.

Putin is a Caudillo; Russia is pretty much seluar state.

Most people on a Sunday morning are in their homes, not in the basilicas. The society, and certainly the government and the ruling circles, do not operate from christain world view, but rather the same secluar cynicism of the Soviet State.

As for the “happy holidays” problem you seem to have, try moving somewhere else. I always wish people a Merry Christman”. Buck up and stop being intemidated.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:35 am 192. NahnCee:

Hard to give any credence to someone who doesn’t know how to spell “intimidated”. Or “christian”. Or “secular”.

Almost as if English is not your first language, coisty.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:43 am 193. Richard Wilson:

Steveaz @ 143(?) Thanks for giving me some much needed vittles for thought! Ill be short , but hope to answer fully later: I agree with the conservative approach, I think we should go slowly, the slapdash approach of Clinton/Albright in FRY/ Kosovo, their zeal to help genocidaires like Tudjman, Izebetovic and Ceku, ignoring atrocities against the more powerful and wealthier Serbs(I think, too, with the most pro-American sentiment going back to WW2), was ill=concieved at best, deadly at worst. Mani instances of this tendency that worries me,sometimes a conservatives “inaction” is remin. of the Clinton approach, even Bush acted this way in regards to the opp. in Iran, why not support the pro-democracy movement? With arms and money? Clinton subsidized Indonesia without knowing anything about Indonesia/East Timor, again with ghastly results.
As for coming here to illuminate or castigate: almost immed. I was attacked: Kim Philby, unChristian, a troll, so I responded in kind. No, my goal is that I have no goal to change any mind, it is easier to change a diaper on a grizzly than to change a mans mind.
Will respond with more later.
Just as we were allies with the evil CCCP in a fight against Hitler, I think we should encourage democrats in Russia, again, not as the Clinton whitehouse did at the fall of communism, they supported crooks, a mafiocracy.
Russia will always be backwards, a state of masters and slaves until there is a civil society, we should be encouraging this, Putin is not just a “gremlin”, he is the incarnation of evil. But, I see Islam filling the niche that Hitler once did…Islam is hellbent on everyones demise. In exchange for removing the missile shield, we should have insisted on access to Russian institutions and news outlets.Have to run.

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:20 am 194. Tony:

Mongoose @ 185 – let’s help any genuinely interested Belmont readers understand our currently deployed, fully functional, multi-layered missile defense technologies with top terms they can Bing (not Google):
1. Patriot, PAC-3 and Israeli Arrow – but huge upgrades of Patriot used in Gulf War I
2. THAAD – recently re-designed and very successful in testing
3. AEGIS shipborne radar-network with Navy Standard SM-3 – shot down our own satellite at 125 miles altitude a couple of years ago, widely deployed, thoroughly tested – this is the one Obama people hope can replace the big guys they are shutting down
4. Ballistic Mid-course Defense systems, the ones in Alaska (10) and Vandenberg (4), that Obama just shut down in Europe
5. Something new (just read about it in an ADVERTISEMENT in Aviation Week for God’s sake) that fits on any aircraft that can carry the ubiquitous AMRAAM airframe for missile defense

So sad we don’t have Ronaldus Magnus’ Brilliant Pebbles by now, but I don’t think it will take long to get them into orbit if we push that button – of course, it’s going to be difficult to do with the huge cuts to rocket programs these days – where we’re apparently hoping commercial companies will pick up the slack.

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:22 am 195. Richard Wilson:

dtmack/steve nelson:great comments, on point.steveaz, also great thanks for making the comments section something worth checking out

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:25 am 196. misanthropicus:

The Manchurian Candidate in full action – handlers very content. (AP, 10 am. PST – coverage constantly updated).

Obama didn’t do an idiocy – his decision was a fully predictable step in advancing his agenda for weakening America by discouraging our allies and by giving our rivals the chance to strenghten their positions.
The return of Churchill’s bust to London wasn’t a mistake – it was a deliberate affront showing the British that they are on America’s list of partners somewhere behind Malawi but ahead of Tobriand Island.
Skipping the Gdansk aniversary of the WWII beginnings and having there only gen. Jones (who isn’t even a cabinet member), shows the same – heavens, even Putin was present at Gdansk!

As far as the missiles shield situation it is uncessary to outguess the Russians in this situation – they have confirmed credentials of doing what they announce they will do. And here the Kremlin said bluntly that there is no quid-pro-quo in this situation – it’s that simple, Obama took the Europeans to the laundry on the fuzzy notion that Russia will in a way or other influence Iran.

This won’t happen, since:
1) Russia will not do anything to enhance or help America’s reputation or strategy, i.e. defanging Iran, and:
2) even if they would want to do something in this situation, they simply don’t have the leverage -
… thus, the Manchurian Candidate SUCCEEDED!

A confirmation of this situation’s crappy management comes from Robert Gates himself, who credited the decision on the “new perceptions” regarding Iran’s atomic capabilities – my! “perceptions”, this is the newspeak used for assessing the risks of a nuclear war?
Not really. “New perceptions” is a term hedging a situation that the Pentagon sees as having terrible consequences -

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:27 am 197. steveaz:

Marie @182,
Votre commentaire vis Nahncee dit quoi? Je ne l’ai pas compris.

En ce qui concerne les affaires militaires entre l’Amerique, l’Europe, la Russie et l’Iran, je crois que la fortification des institutions democratiques exigent nos attentions le plus. Rien d’autres, comme le mendacite d’un ou d’autre president Americain et bien qu’il en soit ainsi ou non les Polonais suffrissent de peurs vraix vers les Russes, toux ne sont pas bien pertinents.

Pour comprendre les actions du nouveau President Americain, je crois qu’on doivent imaginer que c’est Dominique DeVillepin qui habite le White House maintenant. Vraiment, je voudrais vos evaluations savantes, comme une Francaise, en ce qui concerne les cooperation philosophiques et practiques entre un anti-Americain comme DeVillepin et ceux qui se trouve dans les gouvernements du Venezuela, la Russie et l’Iran, et, si telles cooperations existes du tout.

Votre reponse en Anglais aurait bien recu ici. Merci en avance.
-Steve

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:30 am 198. Richard Wilson:

god, how not to respond to such imbecilities?coisty, are you for real? There are NO Christian nations, None. America is not Christian.Russia converted to Christianity long ago, her tradition of saints, of hesychasm, of suffering, of helping the people, of being against anti-Semitism goes unnoticed, check out Fr. Alexander Men, whose assasination is likened to JFK’s impact on America. A wonderful man, saintly even. But, in your eyes? “Since he don’t engage in glossollalia, he ain’t no Christern.”
Open your eyes,man.

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:32 am 199. steveaz:

All, please pardon my fifth-year French. It’s been a long time since I cracked my French dictionary, but I thought some multi-lingual outreach might yield some important content from our Continental commentator(s).
Cheers,
-Steve

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:36 am 200. Richard Wilson:

steve–mayakovsky29 at gmail..if youd likt to talk

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:42 am 201. Marie Claude:

“Skipping the Gdansk aniversary of the WWII beginnings and having there only gen. Jones (who isn’t even a cabinet member), shows the same – heavens, even Putin was present at Gdansk!”

Hmm the Brits and us, only fest the END of wars, not the beginnings !

if Mr Putin was there, but previously denied by his polish peers, it’s because Russia was the Topic of the fest (with Germany)

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:45 am 202. coisty:

NahnCee: Hard to give any credence to someone who doesn’t know how to spell “intimidated”. Or “christian”. Or “secular”.

Almost as if English is not your first language, coisty.

It was NOT my post! The person is addressing me. Read it again NahnCee. I’m responsible for two posts on this thread – #176 at 8.38am and #189 at 10.32am. The person who put ‘coisty’ at the top of entry #190 in in complete disagreement with me.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:05 pm 203. Natalia Novikova:

some interesting views:
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22062
Thanks for posting the Russian Orthodox holocaust, also steveas, insightful comments, Richard, too, then again, you are my muzh.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:06 pm 204. coisty:

god, how not to respond to such imbecilities?coisty, are you for real?

Again, I did not post that. Read my other posts and you’ll see the person who posted at #190 is someone else.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:11 pm 205. luddy barsen:

RW/192; The locus of the evil was the bad turn of the Chernomyrdin Commission, set up to take private the USSR assets. Clinton, in response to the pivotal political event of the postwar 20th century, handed USA’s invited, honored, seat on this commission (which carried the hopes of thr Russian people) to VP Al Gore (incidentally, Gore has yet to comply with USA law to furnish congress with the minutes of his private meetings with fellow commissioners, but that’s vanishingly small an error compared with the direction the C.C. took overall –toward oligarchia and the underworld).

Gore’s career of course was inherited from his family, which of course had made its fortune as protege of Armand Hammer, whose Occidental Petroleum dealings with the brand new USSR had made him a personal associate –a de facto agent –of both Lenin and Stalin (the actual men –not just the metaphors).

Al Gore the Greenman –an unfortunate accident that his campaign against domestic American energy production has so enormously increased the relative geopolitical power of Russian oil? Fat chance. The public record is a powerful hint that he’s been a KGB project at least dating from his long ago, career-igniting enviro book (with so many on the left, always there’s that early “book”) “Earth in the Balance” –which was certainly cleverly-named you must admit.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:13 pm 206. Whitehall:

It seems that we’re sorting out the tactical moves and implications from the strategic over-game.

Tactically, Gates seems to thing we can mitigate the loss of the E.European land-based system with Navy-portable systems. Maybe yes and maybe no. Politically, the Poles and the Czech are fluffed at us but they are not our prime concern.

Strategically, Russia got something. MAYBE it was payback for Afghan resupply and maybe not. Agreed that it would mutually beneficial if the US and Russia became friends – but Russia doesn’t have friends. Of course, NO country has “friends” – only interests.

I’d still call it “too little information” at this point – but I don’t think I’m going to like it.

Obama as “Manchurian Candidate” does seem to fit the evidence. I’d really like to know how the military below the JCS evaluates the situation.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:16 pm 207. Richard Wilson:

my apologies coisty, in other words, how bout a drink, fellers?
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=281756200650&ref=mf
a bunch a ny city tea party folks getting together to knock some back, maybe some mixed drinks, like the Obama?Bad joke. But, wondering, what would an “Obama” consist of?

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:17 pm 208. Marie Claude:

steveaz (en Arizona ?)

NahnCee is my fidel supporter for years ! just wanted to remind her my best souvenir of her loving affair with us, BTW isn’t it what f**k means ?

now for the main, OK the Poles have some motives to fear the russian angryness, but they should also create a space for the future, and therefore bury the “war hatchet”, as we did with the Germans (and the Brits BTW)

They have been a suffering people, and want us not to forget them, though if one keeps on its remnent mournings, it’s difficult to create exchanges and a good communication, they must assume their geographical position and be more part of the european agendas, up to now the western part of EU had the impression they were not living in EU but tagging along the american trailer, which has shown its speed limits.

The Russians won’t attack a strong EU, and Poles’s interest are with EU, unfortunately they were jogging at “hue” when we were at “dia” (for your vocabulary lesson : aller à hue et à dia)

Tu as tord, Obama n’est pas Dominique de Villepin, he isn’t so well-bred ! LMAO, Dominique wouldn’t have made gaffes while offering gifts and or with the protocole !

De même Dominique n’aurait pas cherché d’alliance avec Chavez ou Castro, nor with Amahdi, he would have take cared of the good appearences when intrigues are behind the curtains.

Plus, he can be such a cultivated bard within a big audience, er hmm, not Obama, that has only learnt history in his asian coranic school

bravo pour l’effort d’écrire en français

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:23 pm 209. Natalia Novikova:

another great article from anatoli:
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=22202
marie claude?Are we the only women here, foreign at that? Im Russian, in NYC.Au revoir
Henry puts in his two popecks
But there are straws in the wind that imply a more constructive attitude. Putin has made an intriguing proposal of potentially profound, long-range significance: to link Russia’s existing missile tracking radar installations in Azerbaijan or those planned for Southern Russia to the American and NATO defense missile system against Iran. While the proposal is unacceptable as put forward, it contains a vision of how to implement parallel strategic interests that might set a precedent for overcoming other global challenges.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:31 pm 210. luddy barsen:

Whitehall/205; Obama as “Manchurian Candidate” does seem to fit the evidence. I’d really like to know how the military below the JCS evaluates the situation

–me too, Whitehall. One wonders what an event horizon would look like. I keep having this waking nightmare of the USN being the only world nonpareil, and a coven of conspirators working on how to manipulate the American people into wanting to pull it back to anchor in the home ports — a la the German High Seas fleet after Jutland. i keep remembering all the fleet carriers we lost in the WW2 Pacific –to weapons systems nowhere near as effective as today’s.

Not that we don’t have any Admiral Ernest J. Kings anymore, but that we DO perhaps have an unprecedented presidential leadership impetus, separated from the whole past not in degree but in kind.

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:40 pm 211. Marie Claude:

привет Natalia, I guess we are the only “daring” foreigner women

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:54 pm 212. coisty:

Richard Wilson: my apologies coisty, in other words, how bout a drink, fellers?

I just looked at your Facebook link. Your tea party meeting (right there in NYC, the belly of the socialist beast) is at the pub that was my nightly hangout the one time I visited NYC in 2002. Being from Belfast and somewhat parochial I can’t go too long without a Guinness (or Beamish, or microbrew versions) so after a day of sightseeing that was my last stop most nights as it was beside my hotel. Anyway, enjoy your evening!

Sep 19, 2009 - 12:58 pm 213. Tony:

@208 – wow, What a great idea! Shared missile defense systems between the Americans and the Russians, the two greatest space powers.

If the Soviet Union will join with us in our effort to achieve major arms reduction, we will have succeeded in stabilizing the nuclear balance. Nevertheless, it will still be necessary to rely on the specter of retaliation, on mutual threat. And that’s a sad commentary on the human condition. Wouldn’t it be better to save lives than to avenge them? Are we not capable of demonstrating our peaceful intentions by applying all our abilities and our ingenuity to achieving a truly lasting stability? I think we are. Indeed, we must.
. . .
As we pursue our goal of defensive technologies, we recognize that our allies rely upon our strategic offensive power to deter attacks against them. Their vital interests and ours are inextricably linked. Their safety and ours are one. And no change in technology can or will alter that reality. We must and shall continue to honor our commitments.

I clearly recognize that defensive systems have limitations and raise certain problems and ambiguities. If paired with offensive systems, they can be viewed as fostering an aggressive policy, and no one wants that. But with these considerations firmly in mind, I call upon the scientific community in our country, those who gave us nuclear weapons, to turn their great talents now to the cause of mankind and world peace, to give us the means of rendering these nuclear weapons impotent and obsolete.
. . .
My fellow Americans, tonight we’re launching an effort which holds the promise of changing the course of human history. There will be risks, and results take time. But I believe we can do it. As we cross this threshold, I ask for your prayers and your support.

Thank you, good night, and God bless you.

Quotes from President Reagan’s Star Wars speech, March 23, 1983

Sep 19, 2009 - 1:04 pm 214. Mark:

Having watched on C-SPAN Obama’s official announcement of non-installation of missile defence, I now understand (yes, this is irony) that weakness is strength, delay is action, and appeasement is aggressive, forward-thinking strategy. How did I not realize before that all the Leader needs to do is string together three adjectives, preferably or even necessarily alliterative, and voila you have a new policy. “Strong, strategic, sensible,” or whatever?

Sep 19, 2009 - 2:43 pm 215. vivo:

As far as I’m concerned Russia, the Middle East, Israel, Asia and Europe can all destroy themselves. Keep the USA out of it.

They have been playing those ‘games’ since WWI. WWII wasn’t enough punishment? Those people are masochists. I guess the USA gets dragged into the game for economic reasons: billions to be made. So politics is the means to the almighty $.

Sep 19, 2009 - 5:14 pm 216. myth buster:

Has anyone considered what will happen once Obama’s ego is bruised both overseas and at home? Remember, the man is stark raving mad. He’s bound to do something really stupid.

Sep 19, 2009 - 5:26 pm 217. Lifeofthemind:

myth buster,
Agreed. He is the kind who likely said, “I’ll do something and you’ll all be really really sorry. Just you wait and see.”

Under the 25th Amendment the Cabinet could declare him unfit and remove him. In effect they can impeach the President and refer him to a Senate trial. That is why confident mature Presidents chose cabinet officers who are strong leaders in their own rights but weak men like Obama choose a Cabinet full of nonentities with scandals revealed, and probably more in the drawer, who could never work together to remove the POTUS.

Sep 19, 2009 - 5:36 pm 218. Josh:

wretchard @ 144: Then what were the Russians incensed about? Ghosts?

I still cannot really understand it. Ghosts, yes, I think so. This “missile shield” has a timeframe on it of another five to ten years, and would it even work if needed? Will that be the real threat, in five to ten years? I suspect our proposing it, and Russia’s opposition, are both just ghosts, of fighting the last war. Should NATO ever have expanded eastward? Should it continue to do so now? These were moves that were begun after the Berlin Wall fell, and then the Soviet Union fell.

It all stinks to me of outdated geopolitics more than any military utility.

It’s a day later now, and I continue to consider that just maybe, Obama’s move, with Hillary’s and state’s backing, or was it Gates’ move – may be at least militarily valid. The politics are much harder to judge, will have to see several more moves on each side to really say.

Sep 19, 2009 - 5:52 pm 219. Tony:

Josh, indeed at 217:
This “missile shield” has a timeframe on it of another five to ten years, and would it even work if needed?

It has been working for years now, we’re getting into decades, dude.

Go down to your local library and read the last few issues of Aviation Week and Space Technology. It’s not a secret that it has been working for years. Better yet, go to aviationnow.com and poke around reality.

Why do you think Russia was so afraid of it?

Sep 19, 2009 - 6:11 pm 220. Marie Claude:

Nato should had vanished with the fall of the Berlin wall, as did the Warsaw alliance for th counter part

And Vivo is right we should mind of our businesses ourselves

there would have been an EU army without Nato, and there would not have been these quarrels about who’s gonna be in Bush coalition, it would have been an EU involvement, or not, it would have been discussed and decided with a quorum of voices.

So, again who had interest that EU couldn’t manage to be this united federation ?

Sep 19, 2009 - 6:13 pm 221. Josh:

Tony @ 217, No defensive system works 100% of the time, that’s why they have to play the games in the NFL. At least half the utility of missile defense is bluster and bluff. Shhh, don’t tell the bad guys.

And since Bush41 we carefully built the systems so that even if it somehow did work 100% of the time, Russia has ten times more offensive missiles than our defensive systems. We build these to NOT block Russia. Read your AW&ST more carefully.

Sep 19, 2009 - 6:16 pm 222. Tony:

Josh, this is the Belmont Club. Facts count here.

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:00 pm 223. Josh:

Tony, couldn’t have said it better myself.

Sep 19, 2009 - 7:09 pm 224. Josh:

Tony, sorry about that last comment, please let me expand on it, anyone who thinks that facts count is my friend.

I learned some facts here the other day about the D21 drone.

I’m not making any partisan argument here (nor am I trying to sneak in an argument by pretending its not a partisan argument, etc!). These are the most vanilla facts about our missile defense systems over the past thirty years, through today, and probably for the foreseeable future. I’m sure you can verify it all from the archives of AW&ST, or a little Googling around.

Please read my previous posts on these matters, and I’ll repeat a little, even go a little further – this was probably a decision made mostly by Robert Gates, a Republican and technocrat, and probably the best thing Obama has done so far in his administration is keep him on, and listen to him.

I’m not even sure if I think this is a good idea, but I try to separate the military and political aspects. Probably all the really good technical decision points are still secret. Even with them, it’s probably a coin flip, and Obama is going this way as much out of dogma and maybe budgetary reasons as anything. OTOH, for all I know, the Pentagon supports the idea, too.

And anyway, my most basic position on the matter is that defensive systems are faulty, and that means we should depend more on offensive systems. I hope that helps you understand where I’m coming from!

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:03 pm 225. misanthropicus:

RE #214/vivo: [...] As far as I’m concerned Russia, the Middle East, Israel, Asia and Europe can all destroy themselves. [...]

Vivo, you managed to break you own (and towering) record of idiocy – frankly, I’m very, very impressed.
So now, my poor Vivo, for some mystery reasons you suddenly became an isolationist (by the way, now you drive Chevy pick-up, religiously listen to Pat Buchanan, have shotgun and Bible always with you?)

Anyway, how can you reconcile your current isolationist position with your last month’s foamy-mouthed yells calling the US to bomb Mongolia for not allowing same-sex marriages?

Can you edify us? You can use your own words.

Regards – Misanthropicus, advanced researcher in human imbecility in Los Angeles

Sep 19, 2009 - 8:08 pm 226. Robohobo:

As for vivo and the other trolls, why are you here? You never answer. BTW, where is moho, vivo? Did he get laid off by the DNC?

Okay, the thing to my mind in all of this is not whether the ABM system works or not, the ballistic paths of missiles does make sense – for a system that is working and all the other discussions are good. I wish that the policy wonks in DC were half as thorough.

The real matter is what was missing (or maybe I missed these, but…):
1. There were NO discussions with Poland or the Czechs. Matters like this demand long talks albeit under the radar but they do get ‘leaked’.
2. There were NO leaked stories coming from “reliable sources” out of Foggy Bottom about the upcoming realignments.
3. There should have been at least one upper level (read SoS) trip to the area, there was not.

This whole thing just sprang from the ground one night. SPROING! And now there is not upcoming missile defense shields or anything else for allies in the area. Just a “Sorry, Mates! You don’t get one!” They may get other minor goodies as appeasement but the niceties did not seem to be followed.

Which tells me:
Either -
The 0bamanation and The Won are:
Amateurs
OR
Malicious

Either one does not sound good.

Sep 19, 2009 - 9:38 pm 227. BrainTrust:

These commenters are way too scholarly and learned. To properly assess what Obama GOT consider the ally cat that he is …..

1. He got results for the Saudi Royal Family who got him into Harvard as his benefactor.
2. He got for George Soros the ability to short sell the currency in Poland and Czechoslavakia.
3. He got a reprieve for the Muslim dictators.
4. He got back into good graces with the American Lefties.
5. He got “special friend” General Electric the ability to do business in Russia.

I am sure I have not mentioned some payback gift for the unions, Goldman Sachs, the European Bankers who own the Fed and countless other “friends of Barack”.

You just have to know how organized crime works to understand what he “got”.

Sep 19, 2009 - 10:21 pm 228. whiskey:

Israel must fear an attack launched not from Iran, but from Lebanon or Syria. Nuclear missiles operated by Tehran from those areas have flight times of minutes, too short to shoot down. By much of anything.

This replicates the classic mobilization issue of WWI — If a nation did not mobilize, it would be destroyed by one who did, whoever mobilized was a threat.

Recently, Brezinsky has argued the US should shoot down any Israeli attack over Iraqi airspace to protect Iran. I would not doubt this is official US policy — Obama would like nothing better to defend Iran against Israel, and then “celebrate” Iran nuking Israel off the map. Something dear to the heart of his mentors Wright, Farrakhan, and Ayers, and a view generally held by the Black community (though not all).

As for anti-Semitism among the Kagan/Kristol thread, I admit I know nothing about Irving Kristol. I do know this, that Jews and Israelis are blamed by the paleocon right (Pat Buchanon, etc.) and the Liberal Left (pretty much all Dems) for the challenge of a “flat” world where technology, nuclear proliferation, polygamy, and tribal life ripped asunder by modern urbanism creates global Jihad, including one with nukes (inevitably). In my own view, the existence of Israel is very useful to the US, in the way that Battleships were to carriers in the Pacific during WWII — drawing in the Kamikazes. An ugly thing, to be sure, but there it is. Paleos and Liberals and Dems blame Jews/Israelis for “upsetting Muslims” and creating Jihad, and thus 9/11. They argue that “if only Israel were wiped out” (this is Ron Paul’s position, shared by Van Jones no doubt) the US would have no more trouble from Muslims. Because history began in 1948. And Muslims don’t face polygamy pressure, tribal rifts, would-be-caliphs, stresses of urbanism and development, all creating irresistible pressures for Jihad.

Fundamentally, a goodly portion of the US, from Pat Buchanon, to Ron Paul, to Van Jones, and Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers AND Barack Hussein Obama wants America to be basically Finland: small, insignificant, a satellite state of powerful other nations. This is a fantasy ideology as much as Osama and Zawahari’s ideology of creating an exile Army to capture their home nations the way Mohammed did Mecca. It is not even remotely possible. But their scapegoating, the way Wright/Farrakhan/Obama/Jones all explain away the failures of the Black Community (and Black Cultural collapse since 1965 — perhaps the most complete and total failure of any creative community seen in history) as the result of “Whitey” instead of internal (but therefore addressable and “fixable” problems).

Sep 19, 2009 - 11:03 pm 229. A Conservative Teacher:

What bothers me the most is about how Obama, the Democrats in Congress, and the media portray our promise to the Poles and Czechs to protect them from rouge missiles as a “Bush-era promise”. It is almost as if these people are treating Bush’s 2-term Presidency as illigitimate, and thus the argeements he made were not made with the full backing and promise of the United States of America.

Obama broke a promise our nation made. Unless he did so in order to protect our allies more and further intimidate our enemies, then all he did was simply break a promise for no reason more than his instinctive dislike for…

Sep 20, 2009 - 5:30 am 230. vivo:

219. Marie Claude:

“So, again who had interest that EU couldn’t manage to be this united federation ?”

I’m guessing here: arm dealers and manufacturers?

224. misanthropicus:

“RE #214/vivo: [...] As far as I’m concerned Russia, the Middle East, Israel, Asia and Europe can all destroy themselves. [...]

. . . So now, my poor Vivo, for some mystery reasons you suddenly became an isolationist (by the way, now you drive (a) Chevy pick-up, religiously(,) listen to Pat Buchanan, have shotgun and Bible always with you?) < < < < < Misanthropicus, advanced researcher in human imbecility in Los Angeles" Wow! How did you guessed??

"Anyway, how can you reconcile your current isolationist position with your last month’s foamy-mouthed yells calling the US to bomb Mongolia for not allowing same-sex marriages?
Can you edify us? You can use your own words."

U heard that from your relatives, not me. Isolationist? Letting the Asia-Europeans run their own show is isolationist? You need a dictionary.

"Regards – Misanthropicus, advanced researcher in human imbecility in Los Angeles"

Yeah, I saw your thesis was based on the How To Be An Idiot For Dummies book.

Sep 20, 2009 - 5:35 am 231. vivo:

225. Robohobo:

“As for vivo and the other trolls, why are you here? You never answer.”

You might get an answer to an intelligent comment AND write my name.

“This whole thing just sprang from the ground one night. SPROING!”

NOTHING springs suddenly. Lots of behind the scene work. No paparazzi chasing bureaucrats.

Sep 20, 2009 - 5:46 am 232. Mike2:

160. Marie Claude:

Interesting conversation about Russia on the link you provided. Mr. Margolis basically reinforced my belief that Russia will be a great danger to America. Thanks.

Sep 20, 2009 - 6:02 am 233. Doug:

Obama Foreign Policy Advisor Calls For US to Shoot Down Israeli Jets

Last year Zbigniew Brzezinski, adviser to former US president Jimmy Carter, described the Bush administration’s policy of maintaining the option of military action against Iran as “counterproductive.”Now Brzezinski, who advises Obama on foreign policy, is calling for the US to shoot down Israeli jets.Brzezinski is known to be anti-Israel.

The Weekly Standard Blog reported:
In a little noticed interview with the Daily Beast (presumably little noticed because serious people don’t read the Daily Beast), Zbigniew Brzezinski suggests that Barack Obama do more than just refuse to support an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear sites — the American president must give the order to shoot down Israeli aircraft as they cross Iraqi airspace:

Sep 20, 2009 - 6:04 am 234. Marie Claude:

Vivo, these are the motors, that Eisenhower tried to warn the following US governments all about, when he left his mandate !

Mike 2, this was the result of your different administrations following Reagan though, (Apparently Reagan hd not that dream!)

Sep 20, 2009 - 7:06 am 235. Mike2:

233. Marie Claude:

Who knows what really goes on in the minds of national leaders but, I do believe that one of the things motivating US presidents after the fall of the Wall was to protect the nations of eastern Europe against Russian domination. After all, protecting Polish sovereignty was one of reasons why Britain and France went to war in 1939 and how quickly we forget that Stalin was a partner with Hitler in the destruction of Poland.

This said, I don’t know if Poland, the Ukraine, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary and the rest can really be protected from Russia. They truly are on the fault line between east and west in the cultural sense and as long as their mutual hatreds outweigh their mutual interests they will not work together to further their own security needs.

What Russia has traditionally wanted and needed is a geographical buffer zone between Russia and the west and Russia and Asia. It has it to a certain extent in Siberia. But, the problem for Russia, and really all nations, is that modern technology and the rise of a resurgent Islam has made geography a moot point. I’m sure that most Russians realize this but who knows.

Sep 20, 2009 - 8:12 am 236. Marie Claude:

Mike, the Russians weren’t in position to threat anyone when the Berlin wall fell down, this could have been the opportunity to include them in a Marshall kind of Plan to reconstruct their warn out infrastructures and help them to access to a common atlantic alliance

BTW see what is going on right now :

Report: IDF, U.S. military to simulate Iran missile strike on Israel http://bit.ly/2aih3l uhuhuh, so the Poles, my condoleances !

Sep 20, 2009 - 8:46 am 237. NahnCee:

“…to protect them from rouge missiles …”

Trying to decide if this would be a red communist missile, or a cosmetically-enhanced French one.

Marie Claude is slavering at the mouth in anticipation that real soon now the United States will become just as craven, cowardly and lazy as France has always been.

And that after Obama humbly apologizes to Sarkozy (and Chirac) for everything bad that the World thinks America has ever done (like, for instance, saving France from the Nazi’s), Marie Claude and the rest of his French cohorts can triumphantly announce that they were RIGHT about Iraq, and that it was a good thing that they stabbed America in the back at the UN, and refused assistance in Iraq.

But hey, what’s a little treachery and perfidy between long-time allies dating back to the Revolutionary War. And now that our “special relationship” with England is dead and fluttering away, surely we must be looking for new and better “special” countries to defend and spend American taxpayer funds on propping up.

(Am I the only one laughing hysterically at the concept of a EU army replacing the America-funded NATO one?)

Sep 20, 2009 - 9:21 am 238. Kirk Parker:

vivo (214),

As far as I’m concerned Russia, the Middle East, Israel, Asia and Europe can all destroy themselves. Keep the USA out of it.

Sure, if they could destroy themselves w/o getting any on us, one could argue that we would be better off keeping out of it–but they can’t, so we won’t.

Sep 20, 2009 - 9:26 am 239. Marie Claude:

Nahn Cee, he, you can’t imagine another scenario than the one you forged for f**ing France

stabble in the back, LMAO, it was rather not sucking your ***, as some did and are not repaid for that today !

Of course, we knew that you’re able to throw us under the bus, since 200 years !

Sep 20, 2009 - 10:11 am 240. Marie Claude:

and yes you’re the only one to laugh at the EU army, cuz Nato EU is doing it right now, a french pilot general appreciated by his peers (and mostly American’s) is jus become the head of EU Nato operations in Norfolk

Sep 20, 2009 - 10:26 am 241. Natalia Novikova:

Nahn-Cee, you daft b***h. Russia dumping money into Obamas campaign?
No wonder the bottom feeders are down here and not writing thoughtful, insightful arguments like Chesler, Rosenbaum, Hansen , no Robohobo and his coterie verbally lurch around, showing disgust at any word more than 10 letters long. Jefferson would be ashamed of you.
Retard will probably vote for Huckabee, right? I hope Gingrich wins, has a small lapse in sanity, bitch slaps you with baby seal. Toodle-oo, cretin.

Sep 20, 2009 - 10:41 am 242. Annoy Mouse:

I have a feeling that this is about where the thread ends…

But had a great laugh about the “rouge” missile. Funny thing how one transposed letter can change the whole context from heavy to amusing.

anyhow, I hate to see the old war wounds turn into a pissing contest…the world has changed and if we are too slow to pick that up, history will repeat itself.

Sep 20, 2009 - 10:47 am 243. Richard Wilson:

This is where the thread ends? Nah, it ended when it began, most of you people have a brain that could hide in the shadow of Obamas teste zit.Real champions of open mawed debility. Serious problems here.Like a cave full of slimy men with fistfuls of misplaced fat yelling their “opinions” to each other, something new and different comes along and the whole gang attacks, even when its good for them.

Sep 20, 2009 - 10:53 am 244. Annoy Mouse:

“most of you people have a brain that could hide in the shadow of Obamas teste zit.”

Glad to know where your loyalties lie…

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:06 am 245. Annoy Mouse:

OT\\The Time I Saw My First UFO

I was walking west out of the Sierra Nevada through deep canyons and narrow passes towards Lake Thomas Edison hoping to get there before dark. There was bear sign everywhere and I saw few people but an occasional hunter. I remembered then that I had it was about the beginning of bear season so I hurried the best I could down the mountain without looking like a bear. As it turned out I just made the river by darkness so laid up for the evening.

Suddenly a great circular light arose over the distant mountains and just hovered there for a while, then, like a shot disappeared into space.

It was profoundly moving until I saw the familiar iridescent after glow of a missile shot out of Vandenburg. I realized that it “hovered” because I was looking right down its backside and I usually watched it from hundreds of miles further south streak across the sky.

I still believe in UFO’s though.

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:22 am 246. luddy barsen:

AM/ re ‘rouge’ –a couple or three years ago on this site, a persistent anti-OIF commenter named “Double Standard” made the same spelling error –and became ‘Doable Standard’ (among many other chuckles) evermore. It WAS pretty amusing. i think it’s the sight gag (site gag?) of rouge dictators firing rouge missiles.

RW, that’s about the tenth time you’ve observed how much smarter you are than present company. You may be right, but don’t you think it’s time to broaden out a bit, thematically?

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:29 am 247. Annoy Mouse:

Is that what happened to you Luddy?

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:34 am 248. Annoy Mouse:

It’s funny but sometimes I think the Russians are jealous of liberal US administration policies since “social justice” was one of their better inventions. The mindset of Russians, as far as I can tell, are extremely conservative and I detect a slight nostalgia for the likes of William F. Buckley. Were it true it would be strange indeed.

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:40 am 249. luddy barsen:

AM, har har. No really, i’m not ‘double standard’. I’m not i’m not i’m NOT! (stamps feet and shakes fist)

re your 247, i’ve read that same notion somewhere recently –that current admin just isn’t any fun for the kremlin boys –it’s insufficiently ’serious’. The old days of real adversaries –Reagan & Thatcher, say –seemed to keep them more jolly.

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:46 am 250. Bohemond:

“since “social justice” was one of their better inventions”

Oh, puh-leez. “Social justice” is one of the most pernicious political notions ever concocted. Social justice is when you have more toys than your friends, so your friends hit you over the head and take some of your toys away. That way everyone is equal. That’s social justice.

And we’ve seen how so very well it worked out for the USSR. And Cuba. And North Korea.

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:46 am 251. Annoy Mouse:

sarc/

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:55 am 252. Annoy Mouse:

Luddy,
Russia has long been insecure of her Geography. It stands to reason that she would perfect a system of belief that on the outside espoused “progressive economics” as it was for them another ring of protection around the power of Moscow. Progressive ideas nary made their way into the Party but it played well to the masses for cover in its near possessions. What better justification of central power than to stand for workers justice while occupying the opulent suits of a decadent but vanquished monarchy.

Sep 20, 2009 - 11:59 am 253. luddy barsen:

Bohemond/249; And we’ve seen how so very well it worked out for the USSR. And Cuba. And North Korea

Beg to disagree –it has worked out very well indeed for them –the party leaders die of old age, in bed, rich as Croesus, after long, long careers in unchallenged power.

…unless you were referring not to the leaders but to the workers in those paradises, in which case i withdraw my objection, with alacrity.

Sep 20, 2009 - 12:10 pm 254. Mike2:

235. Marie Claude:

Actually there was a lot of American taxpayers’ money that was put into Russia after the dismantling of the Soviet Union especially during the Clinton administration but most of it was stolen by elements of the KGB and the oligarchs and ended up funding criminal enterprises all over the globe.

This 1993 article from the NY Times is an example.

Sep 20, 2009 - 12:12 pm 255. Annoy Mouse:

It’s true that Obama espouses this same ideology that cleaves to unions and community organizations that host historical grievances. This “novus ordo” spoils the status quo, which throws order into disorder. The problem with going toe to toe with leftist reactionaries is that while the conservative paternalistically tries to protect order through strength the committed leftist always seeks anarchy. It is no wonder that when they have the firmest grasp of power that they create the most chaos for change, said in another way, change is chaos. Never threaten a leftist with anarchy nor offer it as a gift.

Sep 20, 2009 - 12:12 pm

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