214 Comments

1. Tony:

Policy should never over-rule Common Sense. But it usually does, doesn’t it?

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:36 pm 2. Kinuachdrach:

Is this the same President Obama — don’t jump to conclusions — who jumped to conclusions when a police officer was doing his job responding to a break-in in progress?

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:42 pm 3. wretchard:

Casscells would have lots of sources at Walter Reed and little if anything to lose. His Wikipedia entry says that “Sworn in on 16 April, 2007, Secretary Casscells administered the $45 billion Military Health System (MHS) and was principal advisor to the United States Secretary of Defense for health issues. The MHS comprises over 130,000 military and civilian doctors, nurses, medical educators, researchers, and healthcare providers worldwide providing our nation with an unequaled deployable medical and research capability. Dr. Casscells was honored at a retirement dinner on 28 April, 2009 with great fanfare.”

He led the recovery from the Walter Reed Army Medical Center shortfalls in 2007, making the system the best in prevention, trauma, safety, ethics, satisfaction, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) research and care, diversity, and disaster response. With the Pentagon’s strategic partner the United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), he helped make the warrior disability evaluation system fairer and faster. To improve their electronic health records he championed interoperability with the VA and the United States Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and held personnel and vendors accountable.

Now the general rule is that when someone wishes to bring attention to a sensitive subject without compromising confidential information then he may use an open source pointer to steer people to a fruitful area of inquiry. “I can’t tell you what you’ll find, but look here.”

Given that some of Hasan’s problems go back to the last days of the Bush administration, I seriously doubt we’ll find a partisan smoking gun somewhere. In fact, I don’t know what exactly we’ll find. But my guess is that once the rocks start getting turned over we had better have the bait can ready.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:49 pm 4. Tcobb:

This investigation can go anywhere. There’s a great incentive to make sure that whatever the truth happens to be that those in officialdom who have the most to lose should not be the last to know.

Truth is like a serpent. The more you hate and shun it, the more deadly its bite will be.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:50 pm 5. AZM:

Whether in public or in “polite” company — it’s hardly possible to say the “M” word when discussing the causes of this event. Heck, it’s hardly possible for even the straight talking president of the US — that would GWB, not Obama — to say that the plain evidence suggests that it isn’t and never was a religion of peace.

We want to fight wars in which no “civilians” are killed and all destruction is minimized.

Out in combat zones, the military is demanding that vulnerable soldiers comply with nonsensical RoE.

Sorry. We have no capacity to ask rigorous questions or speak obvious truths. Let’s not kid ourselves.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:51 pm 6. twobyfour:

Kinuachdrach/2

Yes, the same Oba Mao. Sometimes it is necessary to jump to conclusions, sometimes it ain’t.
Do as Oba Mao sez, be happy that he takes on the burden of deciding whether to jump or not. If he sez jump, you jump.

/sarc

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:52 pm 7. ck:

A muslim in the military is like a black lesbian in a wheelchair. So protected, that no one who cares about their job would say anything to them.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:53 pm 8. Lifeofthemind:

Remember that you can now demand support to practice Satanism in the UK armed forces and ask for a symbol of Wicca on an American VA headstone. So the issue is not Islam or any single belief system. The point is that there is no evaluation system at all. Maybe the wicca are fine and loyal, maybe some muslims are and others are not. What has happened is that a screen has been arbitrarily drawn around some actions and motives if they are declared religious and they cannot be questioned. What makes this doubly unsustainable is not only does it not work but it is also arbitrary and hypocritical.

Every now and then the KKK and Neo-nazis crawl out and try to get recognized as just another faith group. They get reliably slapped down. The problem is that everyone knows that if they weren’t a small group of losers, if they were instead a growing menace tied to wealthy overseas interests and had a reputation for effectively using violence (in the last 75 years, maybe Robert Byrd did defang them) then their pretensions would receive a more respectful hearing.

My comments about Hasan’s military record were on the last thread.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:57 pm 9. Josh:

It’s SJS.

You want to research SJS, research it, but if it were detectable or predictable at the individual level it wouldn’t be “S”.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:02 pm 10. AZM:

A matter of personal concern: If there’s an “M” internment camp will I have to go? To whom and how do I protest that I am not to be judged Muslim by the accident of birth? To whom and how do I display my rejection of Islam? What is the opposite of handling a Koran with white linen gloves? Will there be a test? Best start thinking of this now.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:06 pm 11. Josh:

Y’know, there is a “short-timers syndrome” I’ve seen at work, when in a generally dysfunctional work environment a previously happy camper starts complaining about common facts of life. I haven’t seen anyone go postal, but I’ve certainly seen them go away. It’s not whether or not the complaints are valid, btw, it’s the fact of focusing on what everyone knows, and in general can’t do squat about. I suppose it would be very uncomfortable to have to instruct all troops to be on the lookout for stuff like that, and to report it up the chain, or to ratfink@whitehouse.gov, when seen. OTOH, I suppose something like that *is* already in place, someone with halfway recent military experience, tell me.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:08 pm 12. trangbang68:

Why was he counseling returning GI’s if he had jihadist sympathies and poor past performance? The only conclusion I can reach is the pencil necked geeks and px warriors at the Pentagon don’t give a crap about the brave men they’re grinding into powder with multiple deployments, asinine rules of engagement and political circle jerks. Somebody ought to get fired for letting this filthy goat humper anywhere near American fighting men in a vulnerable place.
I heard on the lamestream media that the perp is paralyzed . No doubt that will be cause for sympathy from some scurvy ACLU lawyer defending him. Where’s the bullet dipped in lard for this monster?

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:14 pm 13. twobyfour:

ck/7

A very good point. When I heard about some people witnessing displays of his true creed, I have to ask… did you notify your superiors, or thought it is someone else’s job and muttered under your breath “why should I rock the boat”?

People that asked themselves whether Hasan would one day go on a shooting spree… did they voice their concerns outside their peer group? They clearly sensed the potential.

If the above is not the case and no one said a thing, we are in a deep doo doo. The rot is indeed very deep and wide.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:15 pm 14. 3Case:

For W @155 in the last thread: Eventually you will have situations in which people who are actually not trusted may be put in formal positions of authority simply because they can’t be questioned.

Please consider: Jamie Gorelick

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:15 pm 15. Thrasymachus:

This will be swept under the rug as much as possible. The MSM will assist as much as they can. The Army is much more worried about being accused of discriminating against a Muslim than they are of a Muslim shooting up an Army base. He was picked to represent the Uniformed Services medical school because they wanted to show off their token Muslim.

The logical thing would have been to arrange a discharge but I’m guessing they feared he would be free to go around slagging the Army and complaining about discrimination against Muslims if he got out and they wanted to control him. Fort Hood is far away from the MSM so that would have helped also.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:19 pm 16. wretchard:

A matter of personal concern: If there’s an “M” internment camp will I have to go? To whom and how do I protest that I am not to be judged Muslim by the accident of birth? To whom and how do I display my rejection of Islam? What is the opposite of handling a Koran with white linen gloves? Will there be a test? Best start thinking of this now.

I think it would be a great injustice at least on par with the interment of the Nisei. First of all, the statistical evidence suggests that most Muslims are in fact regular guys. Otherwise we would be observing a great many more incidents. Also, refer to your own personal sample. How Muslims do you know? How many are like Hasan? My guess is that we are looking at worst at single digit percentages of bad guys.

But here’s the thing.

The system of political correctness protects the bad guys and oppresses the good guys. The bad guys are able to strut around and intimidate the good guys with impunity. They get plum interviews on the media, tenured positions at universities. They get the glamor; they get to be cool and edgy. The good guys get a dead cat in the mail box and opprobrium of their trendy friends.

The really sad thing about political correctness is that it empowers the very thing a lot of Muslims came to the West to avoid. They run away form Sharia law and just when they think they’re safe the Archbishop of Canterbury says Sharia courts should be set up in Britain. They leave so their kids can have something other than the madrassa and the teachers go and try to duplicate the madrassa environment wherever they are. Go figure.

I have. You can say “stay on the reservation” in at least 136 languages.

If you went to academia could you enrol in a course in which Muslims proudly extol their loyalty to the United States? Or would you be more likely to be taught that it is a Muslim’s duty to sneer at America? Would your own professor hoot you down with admonitions to “get in touch with your roots”? What is the sense of letting all these bad guys run loose with impunity, teaching them its cool to wear a beard and headcloth and then, after leading them down the garden path suddenly switching on them and putting them in UN supervised camps sure to be run by the local version of Hamas? Cause you just know those are the guys the UN is going to “empower”.

No.

What has to happen is to separate the sheep from the goats. To increase the contrast between innocence and guilt. Make loyalty a virtue again. And the only way that’s going to happen is by example. Here’s the way I see it: before a single Muslim child is stuck in the internment camp, the professor who taught his dad to be a jihadi should go first. Or are they going to pull the bwana routine when the going gets tough?

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:26 pm 17. Konyok:

Just to add to the fun house surrealism, it appears that the recipient of Obama’s shout out yesterday, Dr. Joe Medicine Crow, isn’t a Medal of Honor winner after all. President Obama awarded him a Medal of Freedom just this August … (Teleprompter AWOL?)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mike-bates/2009/11/06/obama-gives-shout-out-congressional-medal-honor-winner-who-isnt

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:26 pm 18. Tcobb:

# 10 AZM
Why is your problem my problem? Why is the burden always on the non-Muslim? When PC starts evaporating, and it will, accompanied by outrage, it will be the problem of the Muslim.

As you have said to me, and now I’m saying it to you, “best start thinking of this now.”

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:28 pm 19. Lifeofthemind:

3Case,
Good point, Gorelick is the Moriarity of the Left. I own a very small amount of Schlumberger, Knowing she is near it feels like hearing your neighbor is Ted Bundy and you have a daughter with a broken window.

As far as why Hasan was sent to a do nothing paper shuffling conference? That is what you do with dead wood. It is a sign of how bad he was that they didn’t build up his resume with a string of junkets to keep him out of their hair.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:29 pm 20. Lifeofthemind:

Tcobb,
To AZM Why is your problem my problem?
Because it is your problem and mine. Because we as a nation get to decide who is in it, and those rules need to get enforced, but we as individuals can only act to protect ourselves not to sequester and attack other citizens who have not done harm. If I encounter a jihadi committing violence then I will feel called upon to stop him. If I encounter someone attempting to commit violence on a child because of who that child’s father is then I will feel called on to stop him. We can discuss what our immigration policies should be. We can discuss what our standards for background investigations and security checks should be. We can discuss how loyal members of the muslim community can do more to confront and expel threats from their community and prove themselves as valuable to the American nation, as citizens of Japanese and German heritage did in WW-II. We cannot reasonably discuss whether someone who is not a threat should face private violence.

Konyok,
That is priceless.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:45 pm 21. AZM:

#18.

I don’t think you quite understand the post or, at least you need to re-read it. The question I’m asking is how will we decide who is a Muslim?

The belligerent way you are responding suggests “we” won’t decide anything…because you already know who’s going to have to go away. Not your problem, you say.

It’s great that you have perfected the art of judging the content of books by their typeface.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:56 pm 22. Tony:

Common Sense = What has to happen is to separate the sheep from the goats. To increase the contrast between innocence and guilt. Make loyalty a virtue again.

In free societies, common sense is common, in lawyered-up bureaucracies common sense is practically illegal. Many people knew this incipient traitor, just like many people knew what “Progressive” Democrats would do if elected. We all Hope for the best, but Hope is not a Strategy, not even a defensive Tactic.

If there were a traditional chain of command, where every link above takes responsibility for every link below, some man or woman would have stood up and done their duty and cut this guy out of the stream. Who knows, maybe everybody upstream thinks they DID do their duty here, given the bloody tangled swamp their government-pc careers are trapped in.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:57 pm 23. bogie wheel:

What has to happen is to separate the sheep from the goats. To increase the contrast between innocence and guilt. Make loyalty a virtue again.

Lo these many recent months, Wretchard, you have been hinting at (and more than hinting at) BCers finding ways to be doers and not just talkers.

Can the same be urged of non-jihadi Muslims? Why do the only two choices in the face of atrocities and terrorism seem to be (a) silence or (b) post-terror statements of condemnation? Are there any pro-active (as opposed to reactive) things they could do, in organized groups (so as to be more visible than solo efforts) to express or demonstrate loyalty to the U.S. and the Constitution? And I’m not talking about signing some cheap oath of loyalty paper. I mean something concrete that demonstrates commitment where it counts … like massive volunteer shifts at VA hospitals or USO funding drives or having their Muslim children place flags on vets’ graves, every patriotic holiday, like Boy Scouts do.

Visible and sustained expressions of patriotic loyalty, preferably directed towards the direct benefit of the American military.

It may seem like a hassle to people who in their own hearts know they bear no ill will towards this country and its citizens. Given the realities of human nature, we likely won’t be seeing any pro-active demonstrations of loyalty from Muslims who want to continue enjoying the benefits of living in this country until there is a serious and imminent threat to their status here. It’s human nature to do nothing until you have to do something. If we demand nothing but post-bloodbath statements from a few mosque leaders, then the bare minimum is all we will get. Talk. No action.

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:57 pm 24. vb:

Wretchard–I couldn’t agree more with your comment at #16. There are far too many enablers of the radicals and too few defenders of the decent. This is why France imposed the headscarf ban, to protect the ordinary schoolgirls who were being victimized on the way home from school for not wearing one. I was appalled that no one set Obama straight on this before his Cairo speech. I also remember reading, probably years ago, about a mosque in the Midwest that was being taken over by radicals. The people asked for help from the authorities and got nothing.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:03 pm 25. 49erDweet:

I’m going to take a different tack on this – seriously – because our nation has actually gone down this road before and done poorly but have also – and at the same time – been successful. We had the same problem – if you’ll allow me a moment to expound – during WWII with Japanese-American citizens [both Nikkei and Nisei] who loved and lived in this country, but whose operational presence in Asian theaters of conflict could have been disastrously confusing to our own fighting forces. Instead – and eventually – separate fighting force units consisting almost exclusively of Nisei, with a few Nikkei sprinkled in, were used to great advantage in the European theater. Imo the biggest advantage to that program was the sense of “ownership” and “patriotism” it gave to its participants. That paid very big dividends in the development of our national culture in the years following WWII.

But we “integrated” everything military between WWII and Korea. For the best of reasons. And now we again face the law of unintended consequences. Maybe we need to rethink this.

I believe it is foreseeable that any man of conscience holding strong religious views of any kind prohibiting him to harm or contribute to the harm of co-believers at the behest of a non-believing entity will at some point in time come to crisis of conscience, which will in some cases cause that person to reach a breaking point [bp]. Saying this does not excuse or justify the result of said bp, but does go to the heart of the conflict we cause in human nature when we blithely intermix human beings of various beliefs and non-beliefs into what we assume to be a working homogeneous unit of highly trained individuals. That the system works as well as it does is a miracle. That it breaks down from time-to-time should be expected.

How to fix it? One suggestion would be to not hire and train individuals whose very nature suggests potential future conflicts. OR, arrange for such individuals already on staff to work in other locales where their skills are needed in relief of personnel with lesser mental baggage as to the area of assignment and the known nature of the potential enemy. And maybe those assignments would need to be in “hardship” locales, and more frequent than normal to make up for the assignment limitation their belief system imposes. Or there might be better solutions out there.

But there are far too many Muslims living in America for us to unring this bell without coming up with a solution that allows those that want to to acquire “ownership” in this country by means of military service without jeopardizing the morale and esprit de corps of our fighting forces.

Fire away!

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:04 pm 26. AZM:

#20. LOTM

Thanks.

#18 Tcobb

Notwithstanding how you feel about “us” vs. “them” if you need help and I’m around, you have my word — you’ll have my help.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:05 pm 27. Habu:

I have searched the thread twice for a very good observation by one of the many excellent BC contributors. My apologies for not finding the sentence and giving proper attribution.

That observation was that the muslims computer may hold some great information. The contributor pointed out that it had probably been sanitized but there are ways and it is my hope some intelligence surfaces that will be of use to our various Commitees of Public Safety. After all Danton can not do it all.

But then what? We have no General Jack Ripper’s to send out an airwing and confiscate all the transitor radios. More inportantly is the point made by W#16
“Make loyalty a virtue again. And the only way that’s going to happen is by example.”

The difficulty with that is all the Teddy Roosevelt’s are gone; the MSM will not allow another real leader to remain viable. Look at the beating General Patreaus took from the press at the direction of George Soros and his comrades? No, we are left with pretty boys like the self immolating John Edwards and earlier “Monkey Business” Gary Hart.

To exacerbate the calculus the entire DC bureaucracy is simply San Fransisco, Castro Street, East.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:07 pm 28. JMH:

You want to research SJS, research it, but if it were detectable or predictable at the individual level it wouldn’t be “S”.

I suspect it’s never “S”. It’s more like “E”. Eventual Jihadi Syndrome. This guy gave off enough warning signs. Wretchard’s point about it overlapping both Bush and Obama administrations is significant. Might be just another facet of the general Beltway Republican unwillingness to differentiate themselves from Democrats.

AZM

Here’s my test for you. Do you write Internet posts glorifying jihadi suicide bombers? Do you misuse your professional position to attempt to convert people to Islam? Do you cheer when jihadis kill Americans? Do you attend a mosque where the Imam spouts violent jihad and “Death to America” every week (or every other week, alternating with “Death to the Jews”)? Sneak into the country illegally? Spend any extended, unaccounted for, vacations in the Hindu Kush? Raise money for a “charity” that just a front group for Hezbolla, Hamas, or some other Pali Terrorist squad? Ever try to kill your daughter/wife/sister/niece because she “dishonored’ your family?

No to all those? Good enough for me.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:11 pm 29. twobyfour:

bogie wheel/23

like massive volunteer shifts at VA hospitals or USO funding drives or having their Muslim children place flags on vets’ graves, every patriotic holiday, like Boy Scouts do.

That seems to be the one of the few only groups that are doing things of that sort lately. And it is because they want to, not because they have to.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:13 pm 30. JMH:

The difficulty with that is all the Teddy Roosevelt’s are gone; the MSM will not allow another real leader to remain viable. Look at the beating General Patreaus took from the press at the direction of George Soros and his comrad?

I dunno, Habu. I think Patreaus came out looking even better for all the attacks. At least among the people who ought to count the most. It’s hard for me to be sure because there are so many fault lines running through society and so many masks being worn for fear of the very attacks you describe, but I think the MSM has shot it’s bolt. I think they’re just so many yappy lap dogs barking at us from the safety of the picture window. They can’t prop a bum like Obama up any longer, maybe they can’t tear down a good man any more either.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:23 pm 31. Lifeofthemind:

Habu,
Do you mean my #144 on “Fort Hood?” If so thank you.
How is this for 2012, Petreaus – Palin, with Rudy for the SCOTUS?

Loyalty must be made a virtue. You get what you pay for. Why are there scholarship programs that do not demand military service? Why is there only a 5 point bonus for some veterans for some Civil Service jobs? Why is anybody allowed to vote or serve on a jury who is not an honorably discharged veteran, or reservist, or an officer serving during war or for temporary training? Why does anybody get to vote for a branch of government that pays over half of their income? Why does anybody get to vote who is a financial dependent?

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:24 pm 32. AZM:

#16 and #27

“Make loyalty a virtue again.”

At some level – the concept and practice of loyalty is very much alive. The problem I see is that people have several loyalties, and that, for a very large portion of the populace, the principal object of that loyalty is, sadly, not the nation.

I don’t have suggestions as to how that loyalty should be principally directed toward the nation and what it stands for. But, at least one important step in that direction is to consistently build and reinforce in children the image of America — that notwithstanding its imperfections — remains the best and most virtuous force for human dignity, freedom, and opportunity the world has ever known.

My contention is that you cannot be disloyal to that which you look up to and love.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:26 pm 33. marymcl:

@20 LotM

Everything you say is true. “The problem” however is complicated in ways that the obvious WWII parallel of Japanese internment doesn’t reflect. A big part of it is our own PC infested society, which wretchard has been elucidating in all its obtuse glory. But another part is the American Muslim community’s self-enforced isolation from the mainstream and its defensive attitude which given the circumstances only feeds the suspicion many Americans feel that their loyalties ultimately lie elsewhere. As I tried, admittedly clumsily, to set forth on the Ft. Hood thread, there seems to be something about Islam that does not prepare people for the responsibilities of American style liberty and I question whether it is even what some of them want.

Look, I’m not indifferent to the difficulties Muslims face as a community or as individuals. I don’t care to make too much of the fact, but I come from a racially mixed background and I’ve had to deal with bigotry both institutional and within the family. I don’t want to see internment camps or mass deportations. But things have to change, both within our American culture and theirs, or the likelihood of those things increases. As it stands right now, it’s a combination of PC leftists and the activism of so-called moderate Muslims who’ve brought us to the pass where we can’t even talk about these things openly, much less confront “the problem” in any effective way.

I have to go – family calls and I’ve been glued to the computer since yesterday (isn’t unemployment great?)

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:29 pm 34. Tcobb:

#20 LOTM
Maybe we are not connecting here–my point is that a lot of vocal Muslims seem to think that they are entitled to a special status, and if anyone challenges them on this they must be {choose whatever nasty label you want–racist seems to be the most popular}

My point, a most American point of view by the way, is that I don’t have to CARE about why somebody else thinks they are superior to me, and even asking me to consider it is an insult. Sorry, but I don’t have to give respect to people of any religion–not even Muslims. Respect is something to be earned, its not an entitlement.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:43 pm 35. bogie wheel:

Why is anybody allowed to vote or serve on a jury who is not an honorably discharged veteran, or reservist, or an officer serving during war or for temporary training?

Thank you for relieving me of jury duty, LoTM.

BTW, in past threads I have let pass multiple comments by various BC members re: restricting voting eligibility to criteria of (having/beone one or more of the following: a) military service, (b) married, and (c) landowners. Just so you know, by them standards, bogie wheel is unfit to cast a ballot but John Murtha, Michael Moore, and Ted Turner are just peachy. Thanks veddy much!

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:49 pm 36. twobyfour:

marymcl/33

But things have to change, both within our American culture and theirs, or the likelihood of those things increases.

From a historical perspective, train wrecks are the default mode. Additionally, the PC paralysis is in such an advanced stage that to expect thing change in other way than by a train wreck is not realistic. Sounds cynical, mayhaps. But considering how a majority is stuck in the just-in-time paradigm, the pressure cooker scenario is most likely.

That is not to say that any attempts of the proactive sort are to naught. No. Every polity is composed of individuals. An effort exerted now would count post train wreck, I am convinced of that.

The point is, expect the worst and hope for the best.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:52 pm 37. Rock:

@12. trangbang68: “pencil necked geeks and px warriors.”

I hear you trangbang. Looks like the MEMFs are still at large and infesting the Military worse than ever.

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:55 pm 38. bogie wheel:

(having/beone = having or being

“Let’s make it a typing test! That way bogie wheel is sure to flunk it!”

Nov 6, 2009 - 7:56 pm 39. Bob Smith:

“The military will look at all this closely and decide if there is any mental or physical illness, whether this is just a lonely guy with a remote personality who got a bad officer evaluation report and lost the confidence of his peers, maybe withdrew into religion as solace. What could we have missed? How could we do better?”

“Withdrew into religion”, eh? Casscells unintentionally admits the truth here, that religion might be at issue, though he will not follow up that line of thought. What might that religion be teaching its adherents? What might that religion require of its followers? How does that religion require unbelievers be treated? What is that religion’s overarching goal? These are questions that cannot and will not be asked, because multiculturalism is the official policy of our government.

I am certain that “Letting a Muslim into our Army is dangerous” will not be an answer to “What could we have missed?”, and that more appeasement will be the answer to “How could we do better?”

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:08 pm 40. Sylvia:

16/RF. Ah, loyalty as a virtue. It’s on the long list but is not one the 7 Heavenly virtues. I’ve probably read too many historical novels — I see “loyalty” and think of the many times when loyalties have changed, shifting the tide of battle.

For loyalty to be a virtue, must it be absolute?

For a person who is reluctant to make a decision, whether for fear of committing a non-PC act and/or because his core is so rotten there is no “there” there, my guess is that loyalty has no true meaning. Can a ditherer be loyal? A lunatic can be loyal to a cause, but if the cause isn’t just, then that loyalty wouldn’t be virtuous, would it?

Food for thought, with the kicker at the bottom:

From Random House, via dictionary.com, synonyms for loyalty:
2. fealty, devotion, constancy. Loyalty, allegiance, fidelity all imply a sense of duty or of devoted attachment to something or someone. Loyalty connotes sentiment and the feeling of devotion that one holds for one’s country, creed, family, friends, etc. Allegiance applies particularly to a citizen’s duty to his or her country, or, by extension, one’s obligation to support a party, cause, leader, etc. Fidelity implies unwavering devotion and allegiance to a person, principle, etc.

Antonyms:
1, 2. faithlessness.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:16 pm 41. PurpleSlog:

“If Hasan was in the doghouse, then it would be interesting to ask why a “lonely guy with a remote personality” badly regarded by his evaluators was selected to represent the Uniformed Services University School of Medicine at a Homeland Security series of workshops”

1) To give his co-workers – who probably didn’t like him – a breather
2) To keep him from patients

Bureaucracy do what bureaucracy do.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:17 pm 42. Lifeofthemind:

Tcobb,
We are talking past each other I fear. My point was that as a private citizen you should be free to like or do business with whoever you please to but that your words had edged unfortunately close to a call for actions that may only be legitimate when considered by a sovereign government that represents the collective will of a free citizenry. The question of whether you can put a sign outside your house declaring it a “muslim free zone” or judenrein may be worth considering under the restriction on fighting words and verbal assaults but I would give you wide latitude to be an obnoxious curmudgeon if you so choose. Ideally if you discriminate against your innocent neighbors then others will think less of you and your business will suffer. I do not believe that the government should support any such discrimination but given that I do believe that the government should, except in cases of 2nd Amendment extremis, have a monopoly on the use of force it has the theoretical power to enact a policy of internment or deportation that no private person can attempt. We do not want a Bad Day at Black Rock.

I agree with marymcl that the muslim community has a heavy responsibility for the way that they are perceived. My words regarding every man’s responsibility to defend the innocent, especially if things get critical, from private violence stand and I would think better of you if you supported them.

OT There is evidence for those who need it that the world does not stop while we navel gaze.
Thaksin on a mission to humiliate Thai government

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:22 pm 43. Tcobb:

Bureaucracy do what bureaucracy do.
Exactly-’DO-DO’ is often spelled as “doo-doo,” and sometimes its merely referred to as “shit.”

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:28 pm 44. Nate:

How to tell a dangerous muslim from a benign muslim is simple. Not easy. We have too many of them in the country for anything to be easy, but simple.

For every mosque in the country:
1: ID the members covertly, possibly by running the plates on the cars parked outside during Friday prayers.

2: check the sources of funds. If wahhabi money is coming in openly you’ve got a mosque full of dangerous muslims.

3: if the mosque is financially clean try to get recordings of the sermons. If there’s anything antisemetic or any justification for violent jihad you have a mosque full of dangerous muslims.

3.5: If you can’t get recordings you’re going to have to intern the members of the mosque, but not with the confirmed dangerous muslims or for very long. Just long enough to interview the members. The goal is to find the members most likely to be there against their will. (westernised women) If you can’t find any or even only a few in a large mosque you’ve probably got a benign mosque. If the mosque is classified as benign the members can probably go home the same day if sufficient resources are devoted to interviewing.

4: Deport everyone who attends a mosque classified as dangerous. If they’re citizens strip them of their citizenship. Because of the patriarchal nature of Islam women may not be there voluntarily. If they ask for asylum let them have it and a divorce if it’s their husband rather than father forcing them to attend. Girls and young boys would stay with their mothers. Older boys are probably allready radicalized.

The hard part is that steps 3.5 and 4 need to be simultaneous across the country.

This assumes that a moderate muslim will not voluntarily attend a radical mosque. I know of no reason why a group of moderate muslims couldn’t split from a mosque that was becoming radicalized and their eldest or most educated member call himself a mullah, but if this is not possible the false positive rate for the mosque based method of determining the risk of SJS is higher than desired.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:34 pm 45. Joe Hill:

Islam poses a metaphysical threat to Western secular democracy. The ideological underpinnings of the two systems are fundamentally incompatible and no intellectually honest person can pound a square peg into a round hole and expect a good fit. Islam divides the world into the House of Peace and Dar al-Harb that part of the world not under submission to law of Allah. You can try to put a kinder gentler face on exactly what that and Jihad mean but you cannot make it secular and pluralistic. In the West we survived any number of fratricidal religious wars culminating for our forefathers in the 17th century dynastic and religious wars in Britain and Scotland. The upshot of that experience was the rejection of the theocratic state. Either we would keep the state at arms length from religion or we would wind up killing each other they reasoned. That is how the no establishment clause got birthed.

So that leads to a real conundrum. We believe everyone should be allowed to practice their own religion free from the interference of the state but that can only happen if your religion does not enjoin you to take over the state and reduce all non-believers to Dhimmitude. So while I believe that most Muslims are good people I also believe that they are good people to the extent that they are bad Muslims and fail to follow the teachings of the Prophet.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:42 pm 46. wretchard:

Any talk about “internment” even hypothetically speaking, is likely to do more harm than good at this stage. What is probably more productive and which may attract a large consensus is a demand for a full and frank investigation of this case. The watchword should be “no political correctness in the Fort Hood investigation”.

This affirms two things: first and most important is that punishment is reserved for the guilty. It’s an important principle because it sends the signal to loyal Muslims that not only do they have nothing to fear, but that they will find defenders if they are simply ordinary folks. You have to be actually bad to be punished. The second message is equally important: if you are guilty then political correctness will not protect you.

It seems simple enough. Nothing should be controversial about it. But it’s hard enough row to hoe and my intuition is that the politics around the Hasan case should amount simply to “prosecute the guilty without fear or favor”. Choosing the right balance is very important. Under-reach and you don’t send the message. Over-reach and you open yourself to reasonable charges of oppression.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:49 pm 47. Cowboy:

What happened at Walter Reed is that folks were happy to get rid of him, most probably. In this government, how you get rid of people you don’t want often involves promoting them up (easier than demoting them down), or, what’s even easier, sending them away continuing education on the taxpayer dime.

This dude was not well liked at Walter Reed, and found himself in Ft. Hood, Texas scheduled to head out overseas, and all against his will. You can take it to the bank that he was not set on this road a month ago, or even a year ago. He got institutionally flushed down the system by Walter Reed and this has been a process that’s taken years. Here went from being a Walter Reed staffer, the ultimate destination in the US Army hospital system, to being headed out to Iraq on the tarmac in Texas. This guy got served.

He responded by going out in a blaze of glory citing a jihadist cause. Handed out Korans to everybody as part of the preparation. This was jihadist act, but it was also an act of grievance over professional and personal slights.

I wonder how many jihadist acts are like this? I bet a lot. I suspect a lot of jihadism has been a carrying around of variously derived chips on one’s shoulder that have found a happy home in zealotry and its accommodations.

This idiot major is not far removed from Mohammed Atta, except for the fact that Atta had more patience and determination. Their wills and intent are equivalent. I fully expect the self-damning song of lament to strike up at any time, though, about how we failed this major, or that how some macabre pressure cooker we unwittingly fashioned up is really to blame.

That is crazy, but there is good chance that’s how it will all break.

Nov 6, 2009 - 8:54 pm 48. flying squirrel:

Tweety had a CAIR guy on framing it as a stress related breakdown; like any suicide. The question he didn’t quite ask was what would look different if it was a jihad attack?
Exactly what are the criteria differentiating jihadi syndrome -sudden or chronic, from a psychotic break? Your friends are revealed as your enemies: the unthinkable becomes cumpulsory and death is the welcome solution. Where’s the first Doctor to address this question?
HEY PAGING SANJAY GUPTA! WTF the difference?

No, jihadis are not just sick; they are sick because they are evil and evil is sick.
I would just like to hear some Western shrink attempt to to distinguish psychosis from jihadism for the benefit of John Q. He couldn’t help but demonstrate by the contrast the far greater maniacal insanity of evil to that of mere psychotic breakdown.
Of course mental health criteria are culture bound; but the sane/ insane watershed is one commonsense way towards distinguising the good/bad muslim.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:17 pm 49. Charles:

I took my dad over to Walter Reed +-once a month or so for the last 15 years of his life until 2004. Since then I only get back during July when my local church choir goes over for the 4th and sings for people at Fisher House.

My experience of the place is that its very very bureaucratic. The waits are mind numbing. The doctors are first rate but the orderlies can kill you with their incompetence. Twice my dad was saved by the doctors only to be almost killed by some bungling staff.

The family tried to get him to go elsewhere like Bethesda Naval Hospital where the care is better. The suburban hospitals around here are first rate as well. But the old man would not hear of it.

imho Walter Reed suffered a malaise. The neighborhood in which it is located is run down.
As you drive down Georgia Ave from the beltway you can see the neighborhoods go downhill. The soldiers coming back from the middle east injected a much needed level of vigor and patriotic pride into the hospital after 9/11/01.

But not enough.

I’m not surprised a guy like Hasan could fit in there. Walter Reed is perfectly PC.

Walter Reed is currently in the process of being shut down. Staff and facilities are being moved to Bethesda Naval Hospital…further out in the suburbs.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:24 pm 50. presbypoet:

“Thats not my problem”.
Tis procrustian sawing
Or administrator dumpin
it on someone else.

You don’t fit here.
Just go away.
Then I don’t
have to worry.

Getting rid of civilian government employees is hard, but officers have a very strong up or out environment. To be eligible for promotion you had to be in the upper levels. How does his time for promotion compare to other similarly situated docs? Or did they have to promote him in order for him to be fit in the higher level position at a new hospital?

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:31 pm 51. Charles:

47. Cowboy:

This dude was not well liked at Walter Reed, and found himself in Ft. Hood, Texas scheduled to head out overseas, and all against his will. You can take it to the bank that he was not set on this road a month ago, or even a year ago. He got institutionally flushed down the system by Walter Reed and this has been a process that’s taken years. Here went from being a Walter Reed staffer, the ultimate destination in the US Army hospital system, to being headed out to Iraq on the tarmac in Texas. This guy got served.
/////////
This sounds like a plausible scenario for the way the bureaucracy at Walter Reed would have worked. ie They would not have confronted Hasan directly.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:32 pm 52. Subotai Bahadur:

The initial topic in this thread involves the ongoing cover up and shuffling around of Major Hasan; because the political conditions of the times forbid dealing with his apparent lack of competence and personal choice of activities which would immolate the career of anyone who is a non-protected class. We would rather kill our own people than tell the truth.

In an email to friends, initially discussing the injuries of SGT. Kimberly Munley [last I heard she was hit three times: once in the wrist (minor) and twice in the left thigh with the bullets penetrating and lodging in the right thigh. Arterial hit in the left thigh, which is what they operated on first. A soldier used a tourniquet to save her life, so I am assuming a femoral bleed. She faces two more surgeries on the right thigh to get the bullets out.] and that segued into Hasan’s condition, a partial list of tripwires connecting him to Jihad and indicating definite premeditation, and what he could be tried for. Allow me to quote part:

As far as the [redacted from original] Hasan is concerned, he is in critical but stable condition. The number of suggestions for his treatment has been legion. Bacon bandages, pork chop and/or hot bacon grease enemas, salt pork infusions, and a hospital menu based on pork “oysters” have been mentioned.

Unfortunately, from what I have been seeing, it is likely that he will be pre-emptively declared insane so that he will not be tried, and sent to a mental hospital for a few years. The media and government are pulling out the “Muslim as victim” line; and covering up what has been found so far:

1) attendence at “conservative” Mosque
2) reprimands in his record for proselytizing for Islam among his patients and co-workers.
3) reprimands in his record for abuse of female co-workers. [the last two would kill any chance of promotion or being allowed to stay in to retire]
4) public utterances in uniform against US foreign policy and troops in the war. [verbally reprimanded]
5) while on rounds during training, instead of presenting the case, he delivered a rant about Islam and what should be done with unbelievers [either beheaded or set on fire]; much to the surprise of the other residents and the attending.
6) his personal blog on Scribd praising suicide bombers attacking American troops.
7) the day before the attack, he gave away all his possessions [including furniture] and Korans to his neighbors. Incidentally, although a Major, he lived in an apartment complex that was cheap-[redacted from original] and used by poor enlisted types, rent $350 a month. His neighbors did not know he was military as he never wore his uniform coming and going.
he is on CCTV tape at a convenience store on post dressed in Islamic robes and kufi [prayer hat, like an oversized yarmulke] hours before the attack.
9) during the attack there are multiple witnesses [cops and soldiers] that he was screaming “Allahu Akhbar”.

I would be interested, from an evidentiary point of view, in knowing if he had shaved his body before the attack. That is part of the same purification ritual that the 9/11 hijackers did.

Of course, as soon as the first word of an attack came out, before anyone knew what was going on at all, the FBI announced that it was definitely not terrorist related. Yeah, right. I expect that he will be removed from sight and never punished. Buraq cannot allow such to be in the public eye. In fact it would be politically most convenient if Hasan were to die never regaining consciousness, and such might be arranged by executive order.

It is a pity, because according to my copy of the Manual for Courts-Martial, the death penalty still holds under the UCMJ.* The method at USDB Ft. Leavenworth is lethal injection, but the last one executed was moved to a BOP prison and hanged in 1961. I favor firing squad a’la Pershing, or hanging. But then again I want to do it Royal Navy style, after a last meal of salt pork.

*- Death penalties under the UCMJ:

Article Crime
94 – Mutiny or sedition
99 – Misbehavior before the enemy
100 – Subordinate compelling surrender
101 – Improper use of countersign
102 – Forcing a safeguard
104 – Aiding the enemy
106 – Espionage
110 – Improper hazarding of vessel
118 – Murder
120 – Rape and carnal knowledge

The following only carrying a death sentence if committed during times of war:
85 – Desertion
90 – Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
92 – Failure to obey order or regulation
113 – Misbehavior of a sentinel or lookout

There are 6 on Death Row at USDB Ft. Leavenworth, including the Muslim who fragged his fellow Screaming Eagles at the beginning of the Iraq war.

I would add to the list, that he left two goodbye messages on the answering machine of a neighbor and that he turned in his apartment key to the landlady saying he was being deployed to Afghanistan today, and hired a neighbor-lady to clean it after he was gone.

In any case, reading this thread reminded me of this from the email:

“Buraq cannot allow such to be in the public eye. In fact it would be politically most convenient if Hasan were to die never regaining consciousness, and such might be arranged by executive order.”

We are pretty much in agreement that Hasan was shuffled around because he was a political problem. Right now, he is a political problem to the regime. If someone should “accidentally” unplug his ventilator for a few minutes, he could not be questioned. He could not make a statement in court. There would be no embarrassing court-martial. No need to pardon him. And if he dies, there will be enough of a sense of closure for the public that no unseemly questions would be asked.

Would they do it? I think we all know that the rule of law has taken a severe pummelling in the last 10 months, and Lady Justice has been mugged and is being gagged with her own blindfold. Can you objectively examine the collection of fools, miscreants, maladroits, and unindicted co-conspirators who govern us and honestly say that it is beyond them? Do not be surprised if Major Hasan takes a sudden turn for the worst.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:45 pm 53. Mad Fiddler:

Drudgereport headline:

Obama says don’t jump to conclusions

This is the same Sage who said,

“The Cambridge Police acted stupidly.”

Officer Munley may want to engage the services of a good defense attorney.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:49 pm 54. Subotai Bahadur:

RE: # 52 above

I have no idea where that bloody smiley face came from. It is supposed to be “8)”.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:52 pm 55. Pascal Fervor:

Anyone happen to know which Prez issued the exec order to ban weapons on military bases? Was it Clinton?

In any case, in that Bush was apparently pro CCW, how come he didn’t rescind?

Here’s what I call a justifiable reaction from a thread at FreeRepublic:

What is outrageous to me is that our own soldiers are not trusted to carry a weapon on base. There I thought they were hired and trained to kill bad guys… Silly me.

What this situation has provided is a wonderful example of a place operating under the strictest gun controls STILL failing to prevent a gun-related crime. They have perimeter control. They have vehicle searches. They have locked and attended ammo lockers. They have regulations. They have police. They probably even have detection equipment.

It didn’t work.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:52 pm 56. joe buzz:

Major doesn’t believe he should have to go to war….so he decides to kill people. Major thinks his god is great and says so while shooting unarmed men and women. Major is sick.

Nov 6, 2009 - 9:55 pm 57. RagnarD:

President Obama ordered the flags at the White House and other federal buildings be at half-staff and urged people not to draw conclusions while authorities investigate. “We don’t know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts,” Obama said in a statement.

Did the tail just wag that dog? It had been predicted this would happen around this time by others.

What are we really seeing here?

OTOH, the man did have choices and he made the wrong ones. What we do know:
1. He was a devout Muslim.
2. He did have problems with the US Army system and got bad PR’s.
3. He did have issues and oppose the US policies in the ME and near Asia.
4. He did not want to serve in theater.

Knowing that he could have done other than he did, stood up, said no and refused to go for conscientious reasons. He would have to pay the piper but I KNOW that the military would not clap him in leg-irons and send him in theater. They would let him opt out ….. with consequences.

That being said, there is no excuse in any way for his behavior.

So, that this man took this path means he has to face certain consequences AND we have to tell the truth bout him, his reasons and his actions. Nothing less will serve the truth.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:09 pm 58. Batman:

This is so disturbing and has so many layers that I have refrained from making too rash a statement, but after some reflection I will offer a few thoughts.

The obvious is that political correctness most certainly was part of why Hasan was not disciplined or removed from his responsibilities. And another obvious point is that Walter Reed was no doubt glad to get rid of him.

Of course the MSM has already begun its campaign to dilute the terrorism aspect and the treason aspect of this tragedy by setting the stage for an insanity plea. I have testified in Military Court on a case in which a Marine Colonel was trying to use the insanity defense. In those days (just after the first Iraq war) I was pleased to note that the Judge did not permit any “sharp lawyering” of any kind. And that the court’s disposition was not to automatically assume that just because you are crazy you are not also evil or responsible. However I do not know how the Military Courts see the insanity defense these days.

There are many facts that still do not make sense. How did the Army decide to send Hasan to medical school? One article said he got his medical license in Virginia in 2003 — that would have made him 33 or 34 years old and a bit old for one’s first license, especially since one can get one’s medical license by the end of internship (currently known as PGY-1).

How did he choose psychiatry as a field? This is not typically a specialty that highly religious people select and there are disproportionately few Muslim psychiatrists in comparison to Muslim physicians in other specialties.

It is a cliche that psychiatrists enter that field to cure themselves (or perhaps some central person from their childhood). As a psychiatrist I can agree that a significant number in my profession do choose it because they are trying to understand unresolved issues within themselves. This is not necessarily bad if the individual undergoes rigorous treatment and self-examination early in his career. Actually, this often turns out to be an asset, as the psychiatrist has not only understood “both sides of the couch” so to speak, but also has assiduously explored the boundary between his unresolved issues and those of the patient. Did Hasan ever have psychotherapy during or after his training?

Critics on the left have, in the past, been disdainful and contemptuous of the use of psychiatric diagnosis to label political dissenters. For them now to rush to do this with Hasan is ironic at best.

What would be of great interest to me is what Hasan’s mosque attendance has been over the years. Was he devout as a child or adolescent or young adult? Did he come under the sway of a militant Imam in recent years or was this always part of his family’s culture?

But I do want to emphasize that just because someone does a crazy thing doesn’t mean that they were crazy. One of my friends (not a physician or mental health professional) argued years ago that what Lorena Bobbit did was crazy, therefore she should be not guilty by virtue of insanity. No. Great care and caution needs to be used to avoid conflating evil and insanity.

I also noted that his cousin said Hasan didn’t even like fire arms, yet we learn that he took extra target practice. Perhaps one of our Islamic scholars can clarify the issue of lying within Islamic culture and religion. For starters I point to this:

Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

If Hasan were a Presbyterian doctor seeking disability payments on grounds of mental illness, the first thing the insurance company would do would be to assert that as a psychiatrist, he is best equipped to fake insanity. But Hasan is a Muslim in the US Army, so it will be interesting to see how this is dealt with at trial if his defenders take the insanity plea route.

Finally, one thing is nearly certain. Hasan will NOT get the death penalty. Whether it is because by the time of trial he will be a poor disabled “victim,” or declared insane, or too hot to handle so to speak, or defended by a 21st century Johnny Cocheran, he will NOT get the death penalty it now seems he so richly deserves.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:10 pm 59. Batman:

@52 — Subotai Bahadur — I had not read your post before posting mine. You make many excellent points. I think your fantasy prognosis is a good possibility but I still think they will let Hasan live as a sign of how benign the US is (not realizing that it will reveal how indecisive and weak we are becoming).

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:15 pm 60. Chiral:

Bureaucracy seems set on these pre-conclusions: that whatever happened is complicated and hard to understand, and only their “rigorously asked” questions may prevent more incidents.

I wonder what laughable terms they will use to avoid speaking English in their final report.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:16 pm 61. Joe Hill:

I love the Left. They wil make two arguments both of which cannot be true and they will make each of them with equal vehemence and they actually believe neither.

1) The government, military, redneck hicks and Rush Limbaugh clones drove this good man over the edge with their bigotry when all he was trying to do was be true to his conscience thus proving those hateful yokels do not believe anything the profess to believe about freedom of religion or anything else.

2) If he lives and goes to trial then he is innocent by reason of mental defect because nobody in their right mind could be a Muslim Jihadist.

The bigotry is not justified because Islam is a religion of peace and this is a good man. Convicting him of anything is not justified because you would have to be crazy as a loon and as dangerous as a Zippo in a fireworks factory to beieve that nutty Jihadi crap.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:34 pm 62. Walt:

44/Nate

Telling a dangerous Muslim from a benign Muslim is easier than you think. If he’s not breathing he’s benign; if he’s breathing he’s dangerous and must be dealt with accordingly.

Walt Erickson

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:53 pm 63. JMH:

Bogie:

Can the same be urged of non-jihadi Muslims? Why do the only two choices in the face of atrocities and terrorism seem to be (a) silence or (b) post-terror statements of condemnation? Are there any pro-active (as opposed to reactive) things they could do, in organized groups (so as to be more visible than solo efforts) to express or demonstrate loyalty to the U.S. and the Constitution? And I’m not talking about signing some cheap oath of loyalty paper. I mean something concrete that demonstrates commitment where it counts … like massive volunteer shifts at VA hospitals or USO funding drives or having their Muslim children place flags on vets’ graves, every patriotic holiday, like Boy Scouts do.

It occurs to me the most patriotic, pro-active thing non-jihadi Muslims could do would be to speak out against the political correctness. Speak out against CAIR and against the family of this latest murderous bastard who are claiming he was the victim. Speak out – loudly and as a group – against the MSM trying to white-wash the radical connection.

Tell the rest of us that it’s okay to notice obvious signs of a potential jihadi. Show that you care enough about the safety and security of your country to not let dangerous barbarians hide behind you. Point out the trouble-makers, point out the behavior that should be profiled. Demand that any of your co-religionists exhibiting those behaviors be taken seriously. Don’t let anyone evade scrutiny through political correctness.

That would show more love for your country, and for your countrymen, then just about anything else I could think of right now. Show us that you get it, that you’re Americans, not just Muslims living in America.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:59 pm 64. M. Simon:

Was Hassan being played? After all Foreign Diplomats were there too.

In WW2 the Germans called such a game Funkenspiel.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:00 pm 65. Elroy Jetson:

I hope Hasan wakes up and is horrified that he is not with his 72 virgins. I’ll bet his first words are, “Get me a good lawyer, as long as it’s not a Jew.”
As soon as he gets out of ICU, it’s time to break out the waterboard.
Not to actually use at first, just put it beside him in the hospital. Interrogate him to see if he had an accomplice or two. If he doesn’t talk, it’s lather, rinse and repeat for the bastard.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:04 pm 66. M. Simon:

Subotai Bahadur,

Hasan has no family (wife, kids) so he is not very sympathetic. Is there some one in Chicago who can do the wet work required? Maybe Detroit in case he gets caught.

Would they do it? If they have the opportunity.

In this kind of thing no orders are given. Winks, nods, and coughs.

But it doesn’t matter any more. My mate watched Pravda and Izvestia. Muslim were the first words out of her mouth. When there is no truth every one knows the truth. It is corrosive. Most for the liars.

They pretend to tell us the truth and we pretend to believe it.

Well except for the nutters going on about some one naked in the street.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:14 pm 67. M. Simon:

“Get me a good lawyer, as long as it’s not a Jew.”

Actually he would want a Jewish lawyer. Both for prestige and cover.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:18 pm 68. Annoy Mouse:

diversity…at any cost.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:28 pm 69. SpeakEasy:

Pascal Fervor, the CG of the base has the authority to ban the carrying of weapons on base by all except the PMO (Provost Marshalls Office- MPs for some) and believe me, you definitely DO NOT want troops with loaded weapons getting lit on a Saturday night on base. This man was a Major and therefore, like it or not, gets more benefit of doubt than most regular troops. If he lived on base he was authorized to have personal weapons at his residence so he would not have to “sneak” them in.(that goes for enlisted on base by the way) The problem was not the weapon on base but the dope behind the trigger.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:30 pm 70. SpeakEasy:

If we had the will to do so we could rid ourselves of the worst of the Muslim agitators in our country. We see them at every rally crying about their grievances and about how America is responsible for all that is wrong, blah, blah, blah. If they are American citizens, fine, freedom of speech. If they are NOT citizens, send them home to complain. They still have freedom of speech, in Iran, but not the freedom to seditious behavior on American soil. If only our government had the cojones.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:38 pm 71. twobyfour:

M. Simon/66

The administration does not know what would ensue if Hasan wakes up. He may reveal some details that could demolish the whole potemkian PC facade. His chances for recovery are marginally better than leaving someone in a spacesuit around moon’s orbit for 24 hours.

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:44 pm 72. twobyfour:

OK, a new development…

Major Nidal Hasan, who was shot by police to stop a rampage Thursday at Fort Hood, was moved to the Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio Texas, said Colonel John Rossi, the base’s deputy commander. “The suspect Major Hasan was transported today approximately (at) 3:00 pm to Brook Army Medical Center,” he said.

Brooke is becoming the premier medical center for US military. Much combat training is being done there. He’s secure, and they (military) want him alive.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:06 am 73. john marzan:

maj. hasan gave a lecture to other doctors at Walter Reed Medical Center that “really freaked them out:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120162816

They, you know, dozens of medical staff come into an auditorium, and somebody stands at the podium at the front and gives a lecture about some academic issue, you know, what drugs to prescribe for what condition. But instead of that, he – Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don’t believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You’re set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat.

And I said to the psychiatrist, but this cold be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he’s educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I’m a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don’t believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn’t say, well, I’m just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:45 am 74. William Kuntsler:

“Get me a good lawyer, as long as it’s not a Jew.”

Perhaps Colin Ferguson is available to lead the defense team.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:32 am 75. E2:

“Those workshops were attended by a wide variety of personalities, including foreign diplomats, think tank analysts and academics. It would have been difficult to imagine why Hasan should be chosen to front for an institution if his views were controversial.”

I think I can explain this. This guys sounds like he was a real pain in his chain of command’s derriere. As much as I hate to admit it, in the military we often send subordinates on boondoggle TDY’s in order to get them out of our hair. Was he the right guy to send? Probably not, but if he was as terrible with patients as it appears, sending him to these workshops may have appeared at the time to be the lesser of two evils.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:53 am 76. Bob Murphy:

4. T. Cobb
“Truth is like a serpent. The more you hate and shun it, the more deadly its bite will be.”

Eventually, Mr Cobb. But in the meantime…

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:59 am 77. Karen Yvonne:

bogie wheel #23: Are there any pro-active (as opposed to reactive) things they [Muslims] could do, in organized groups (so as to be more visible than solo efforts) to express or demonstrate loyalty to the U.S. and the Constitution?

LoTM #42: I agree with marymcl that the muslim community has a heavy responsibility for the way that they are perceived.

JMH #63: It occurs to me the most patriotic pro-active thing non-jihadi Muslims could do would be to speak out against the political correctness.

Yes, there’s plenty that Muslims could do, but 8 years after 9/11 they still haven’t done any of these things you guys suggest. If we haven’t seen any organized push-back up til now, I don’t think we should expect any to be forthcoming. I believe the reason they don’t do anything is because taking such a public stand would make them targets and put them and their families lives in danger. While political correctness tries to keep Americans quiet, sheer fear keeps the Muslim regular joes quiet. The few that have dared to be critical of Islam are the ones who’ve been willing to accept the necessary extra security precautions.

Really, any truth-telling about Islam is de facto criticism of it and will provoke the murderous wrath of the radical true believers.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:01 am 78. Bob Murphy:

10. AZM:

A matter of personal concern: If there’s an “M” internment camp will I have to go? To whom and how do I protest that I am not to be judged Muslim by the accident of birth? To whom and how do I display my rejection of Islam? What is the opposite of handling a Koran with white linen gloves? Will there be a test? Best start thinking of this now.

I as a reasonable man, am willing to settle for a proven track record of loyalty to the founding principles of the United States and a solemn oath, AZM. Said as an ICBM (3rd generation Irish Catholic, Born in the Mission [District of San Francisco]).:)

I think most Americans would settle for that.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:06 am 79. Bob Murphy:

“I think it would be a great injustice at least on par with the interment of the Nisei.”

Wretch, Malkin made a very good case for what happened with the Nisei in her book, “In Defence of Internment”.

Many of them distinguished themselves later in Italy and elsewhere but we spared most of them the trauma and conflict of going up against their genetic fellows and, given Japan’s xenophobic attitudes towards “the other” that was a very good thing.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:16 am 80. ledger:

I hate to say guys but for intense purposes Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan is lawyered up. You will get nothing from the MSM and CAIR but spin.

The big zero has some legal reasons not to talk too much about this case – the executive authority to execute military convicts and the like. But, 5 will get you 10 that the only thing that is on the big zero’s mind is whether to pardon or commute Hasan sentence (say to 15 months of community service with ACORN).

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:20 am 81. Salt Lick:

“Make loyalty a virtue again.”

Making loyalty a virtue again will require sacrifice from members of this “club.” It’s easy to type up scathing criticisms of military officers who didn’t call Hassan out or take action; quite a different thing take such action yourself.

Try challenging a “diversity” program initiated by your company or university. Then feel the slight isolation, or outright hostility and poor job evaluations, that follow. Write letters to the editor about the racial spoils system created by “diversity” and “multiculturalism.” Lose “friends.” And lose the affection of “minority” colleagues, who you must see in the halls every day.

Yes, it may affect your career, social life, and your spouse and children, too. Yes, it has to be done.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:32 am 82. Bob Murphy:

I am looking into the matter but evidently the gal cop that hit Hasan 4x was using a 9mm pistol.

It’s a pissy litle caliber that we took up to humor our NATO “allies”.

My Ranger buddies and I are taking up a collection to present that lass with a late model .45 calibre automatic pistol so the next time she lights up someone like Hasan she only has to connect once to lay him down.

Bless that lass. I think I are in love.:)

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:01 am 83. ConfederateH:

Ralph Peters of the nypost puts it very well indeed:

Fort Hood’s 9/11

snip

When the terrorist posts anti-American hate-speech on the Web; apparently praises suicide bombers and uses his own name; loudly criticizes US policies; argues (as a psychiatrist, no less) with his military patients over the worth of their sacrifices; refuses, in the name of Islam, to be photographed with female colleagues; lists his nationality as “Palestinian” in a Muslim spouse-matching program, and parades around central Texas in a fundamentalist playsuit — well, it only seems fair to call this terrorist an “Islamist terrorist.”

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:30 am 84. Cooldog:

We are at war with Islam, whether we want to be, or not, because Islam is at war with us. This is required by the basic written tenets of the Muslim faith, or political system, or whatever it is that one wishes to call it.

To win this war, we will need to *first* utterly destroy the symbols of this faith. The Kaaba, Mecca, Medina, and Najaf come to mind. The al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock must be removed, and Temple Mount needs to be purged of any Islamic cruft. Nothing but a synagogue should be there.

After that, we need to close and disassemble the mosques on our soil, and everywhere else that we can.

When we do this, then we’ll be serious about winning this war for our survival.

To AZM: if the above bothers you, then you are still my enemy, despite any protestations you might make. If not, then you have clearly cast off the chains of the mental virus that is Islam, and welcome.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:10 am 85. Marty:

So, what do we do about all the Saudi/Gulf money that funds radical mosques and university “Islamic Studies” programs that provide cover? Yes, they are riding the crest of a wave of Gramscian thinking compounded by those who learned mostly wrong lessons from things like Vietnam and the Civil Right movement, but the Wahabbi money funding these institutions is a critical element in legitimizing all this.

I don’t have an answer that I can square with the First Amendment, but there’s no solution without this being part of it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:12 am 86. Moneyrunner:

AZM #21.

I don’t believe that we are discussing the definition of Muslim. We are discussing how to separate those who would do us harm from those who do not.

There were many good people of German descent who fought honorably and well for the US in World War 2. But I doubt if there were many in the US Army who openly professed his admiration of Hitler, distributed copies of “Mein Kampf,” and tried to convince their neighbors to become Nazis.

That was time when multiculturalism was not celebrated; rather, America was the great melting pot. How do we move the needle back to the point where we can take the sort of behavior exhibited by Hassan before he shot some dozens of his fellow soldiers and remove him from the Army? How do we prevent another Hassan? It isn’t by the kind of over-the-top suggestion that you are making that we have concentration camps set up for Muslims. That sounds an awful lot –to me – as a very typical cry of “poor pitiful me” victimology. And that does seem to be a Muslim trait.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:54 am 87. Lifeofthemind:

Marty,
Foreign money has no protection under the 1st Amendment. A foreign regime funding the subversion of a military officer or supporting the infiltration of an agent they have trained into our officer corps is an overtly hostile act.

Bob Murphy,
Does that married sweetie have a single sister?

Pascal Fervor,
Free Republic gets it wrong. The odds of a field grade officer having his car searched at the gate are slim to none.

Whoever approved this guy’s promotion to Major should get a career killing below average rating for Judgement on their next Fitrep or whatever the Army calls officer evaluations.

Joe Hill,
Nicely argued.

Batman,
Thank you Dr.

Subotai Bahadur,
Well reasoned but we may be at a point where the Army takes charge of it’s own and starts decoupling from the NCA. Remember the scene in The Godfather where the cops set Vito up in the hospital and Tom sends over the licensed private security?

——-
I urge everyone to read my upthread OT @ #42 about Thailand. This smells like China moving chess pieces while America sleeps. Japan should be gravely concerned about the threat to the sea lanes.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:58 am 88. bogie wheel:

Karen @ 77:

Yes, there’s plenty that Muslims could do, but 8 years after 9/11 they still haven’t done any of these things you guys suggest. If we haven’t seen any organized push-back up til now, I don’t think we should expect any to be forthcoming. I believe the reason they don’t do anything is because taking such a public stand would make them targets and put them and their families lives in danger. While political correctness tries to keep Americans quiet, sheer fear keeps the Muslim regular joes quiet.

I get, intellectually, the fear factor. But nowhere are moderate Muslims going to be more safe & protected than right here & right now in the US. If they don’t speak up (and, more importantly, take ACTION in a visible and massive-numbers fashion) here & now, then things are going to get dramatically worse for them at a speed that will boggle.

As I said in my previous post, it’s the law of inertia writ into human affairs. People will do nothing until they have to do something. Right now, moderate Muslims fear the jihadis more than they fear us,(fellow) Americans and the American government. Why? Because we have allowed it to be this way. PC and coddling. As Wretchard has pointed out repeatedly, this approach does not resolve anything but instead makes a violent backlash that much more likely, because it artificially suppresses justifiable negative feedback from average Americans (thus sending the intended message, “these people are docile and harmless”) and lamely, falsely, tries to sweep jihadi actions under the rug (sending the unintended message, “THESE people are the ones you need to be afraid of”).

Fear and love. These are the only two things that motivate people to demonstrate unequivocally their loyalty and obedience. I would prefer for moderate Muslims to love America so much that demonstrations of patriotism come from them reflexively and unbidden. And for a percentage of those individuals it probably already has. (”Then why don’t we see it on the news?” With the media we have? Are you kidding?)

But I will settle for a fear motivation when push comes to shove.

But we have right now the worst of both worlds. America is neither loved nor feared by the moderate Muslims living here. Or, at least, not loved enough, and not feared more than the jihadis.

Until one or both of those motivations kicks into high gear, then we are going to continue with the current status quo. But it looks like the status quo is not going to hold for much longer. It would behoove moderate Muslims to get ahead of the curve. But, again, “people will do nothing until …”

M. Simon @ 66:

In this kind of thing no orders are given. Winks, nods, and coughs.

As in … “who will rid me of this meddlesome shrink?”

Batman @ 58:

But I do want to emphasize that just because someone does a crazy thing doesn’t mean that they were crazy. One of my friends (not a physician or mental health professional) argued years ago that what Lorena Bobbit did was crazy, therefore she should be not guilty by virtue of insanity. No. Great care and caution needs to be used to avoid conflating evil and insanity.

I don’t speak as a professional on this issue, Batman, merely as someone who has lived up close and personal with a mentally ill family member. My father was paranoid schizophrenic. Yes, that same dad who was a retired Marine fighter pilot, American patriot and great father in many ways. For me, Dad has always been Exhibit A in the “sick but not evil” argument. His mental illness was a break from reality, but it was not a break from morality. Everything that is genuinely right & wrong, in reality, was STILL right & wrong to him, even in his most detached thinking. It’s just that he believed certain things to be happening that were not, or vice versa.

Example: Reality = KGB were evil bastards. Dad’s version = KGB were evil bastards who had planted tiny comm devices inside his head and were transmitting to him for harassment & subversion purposes.

Dad fought the good fight far harder, and on a more deep and painful level, than any of us sane people will ever know. And he never ever gave in. I don’t know how to quantify that sort of heroism, really, because I don’t know if there is a quantification. But to me, the meaning of “Semper Fi” was never writ more deeply or profoundly in a man’s life than it was in my father’s.

Suffice it to say that the “sane but evil” people are on my short list for Destination: 9th Circle of Hell. Because they have no excuse.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:01 am 89. onesimus:

History of our government’s handling of these types of situations is not encouraging. Those of you with better memories and/or filing systems can supply the specifics:
A U.S. naval officer flew in a Canadian helicopter to monitor the actions of a Russian “trawler” as one of our subs passed the straits of Juan de Fuca, his eyesight was impaired when he was struck by laser light from the deck of the trawler. Rather than precipitate an international incident, our government attempted to throw him under the bus.
This is a case pajama clad types at their keyboards.
onesimus

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:10 am 90. RWE:

Yesterday in Orlando a guy shot up the place he used to work – one he was fired from 2 years ago.

The guy was under treatment for mental illness and on medication for it. It is pretty clear that he should not have been out walking the streets.

In the 1960’s the Earl Warren Supreme Court effectively eliminated protective incarceration of mental patients except in cases where they have committed crimes. This very simply threw the vast majority of the mentally ill literally out on the streets where people who are not mental health professionals have to deal with them.

The Warren ruling was not merely legalistic but represented a change in philosophy as well. The same philosophy produced PC. Who are we to judge? He hasn’t done anything wrong. He’s just “different.”

This has had the same effect on definitions of sanity as the Community Reinvestment Act had on mortgages. If you loosen up the standards in such a way that loosening them up becomes an objective in its own right, then you simply do away with the idea of standards.

The Va Tech shooter, the guy who killed all those women in Cleveland, the Orlando shooter and any number of others are the price we pay for refusing to set and enforce standards of behavior. A recent development is that when authorities are faced with the problem of how to deal with the mentally ill they are putting them in retirement homes, where they prey on the elderly.

Maj Hasan is simply another example of this mindset.

We can either put everyone in a mental institution where they are kept away from sharp objects, motor vehicles, and guns and are provided with constant free health care or we can set some standards and enforce them.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:29 am 91. mac:

My contempt for Islam is unbounded. Mohammed was a mass-murdering, robbing, raping pedophile. Anyone who actually believes that his life was the epitome of perfection all should attempt to emulate is insane by definition. Such people are also a clear and present danger to any non-Muslim society they are allowed to inhabit.

Spare me the angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin nonsense about “moderate” muzzies and “conservative” muzzies. There’s not a pennysworth of difference between the two. I would dread giving any government, most especially this one, sufficient power to expel all of them posthaste. However, I think it clear beyond the slightest possibility of contradiction that the country would be safer if all muzzie males were summarily expelled and the practice of their murderous political philosophy banned by law.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’ve long since seen enough to make up my mind on this issue. I don’t need to see any more SJS to recognize it for the terrorist action it is.

I keep wondering when, after all of these attacks, we’re going to see an American Baruch Goldstein. Bet on it, because it’s coming.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:45 am 92. Angel Martin:

Cowboy #47.

I think you are on to something with the Mohammed Atta parallel. Atta was also frustrated with a lack of career success and not finding a wife. In response, he turned to radical islam as an adult convert.

When people run into major personal and career problems they sometimes turn to religion. In the case of Christianity they often clean up their act and turn their life around. Converts to Islam can do this as well. However, there is a dangerously high percentage of adult converts to militant Islam that come to believe that they have a religious sanction to make war on non-moslems.

That is why I think Islam itself is the problem, and not just a few atypical fanatics.

There just has to be something wrong with a religion where, the more faithful the follower, the more dangerous he becomes.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:20 am 93. vk45:

16. wretchard:

“First of all, the statistical evidence suggests that most Muslims are in fact regular guys.”

I agree.

“How many are like Hasan?”

I don’t think Hasan is especially unusual. He opposed US involvement in Iraq/Afganistan as do many non-Muslims.

He took his faith seriously as do many non-Muslims their faiths. He thought America was abusing Islamic countries/people of color as many non-muslims do. The anger he felt was at the high end but many non-muslims feel anger at the same level as humans are humans after all.

But there is a key difference. Islam provides a path to action via Jihad that other belief systems do not. And so Islam itself is the problem. I, a non-Muslim, might hate some other group/beliefs but the philosophical/religious underpinnings of my belief system do not particularly encourage my taking violent action.

“My guess is that we are looking at worst at single digit percentages of bad guys.”

That may be true but these ’single digit percentages’ are perhaps 100-fold higher (only my guesstimate of course) than the percentages for non-islamic ‘bad guys’ i.e. a Muslim would be 100x more prone to this kind of violence than would a non-Muslim.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:21 am 94. Piercello:

I would frame a little differently the question of _whether_ Muslims (or anyone else, for that matter) might be or can be loyal. From my perspective _all_ human beings must operate on loyalty as a direct consequence of the functional structure of intelligence. Neurons function so slowly that successful conscious control in most real-time situations is impractical (try running down a staircase fully on “manual” and you’ll quickly see the truth of this) so we operate instead on the strength of various interacting subroutines developed and vetted by training and experience–we stand on the shoulders of very small giants, as Newton might have put it. In a very broad sense of the word, this means that we process high-level actions and ideas by putting “faith,” and therefore loyalty, in their hierarchical sub-components.

So the important question, when the chips are down, concerns the collective _direction_ of those loyalties: In what elements have people emotionally invested their sense of identity (family, career, status, religion, country, naked self-interest, etc), and are those elements fundamentally coherent? If not, what (besides cognitive dissonance) happens when those elements come into conflict?

This ties into @86 above. Multi-culturalism and PC, because they encourage the simultaneous “setting” of powerful conflicting belief systems, are potent disruptors of coherence, and this is why they tend to produce ineffective and/or unpredictable responses in times of crisis.

Multi-culturism = anti-culturalism = cultural suicide, given enough time to work. If you really want healthy diversity, which from a decision-making perspective is actually quite helpful as an antidote to centralized group-think (see loyalty above), then the long-term solution involves building a sustainable monoculture built on inclusiveness and tolerance rather than destroying the existing civilizational scaffolding.

So what do they really want?

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:29 am 95. Skookumchuk:

M. Simon,66: They pretend to tell us the truth and we pretend to believe it. Yes, all of them, and in everything they say and do. The perfect motto for Western post-moderns.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:42 am 96. Habu:

Transferring this guy to Ft Hood was a mistake and a cop out by senior officers.

My father, a Marine aviator and later Chief of Staff, Marine Corps Air Bases ,Eastern US, had a hard and fast rule.

During his days as a squadron CO and in following commands if he had a malcontent or problem child he would call them into his office. He would ask if they wanted out of his squadron. Usually the answer was an enthusiastic “yes sir”

He would then inform them that until they got squared away they would be the last person to ever leave his command. He wasn’t going to make them someone else’s problem They would shape up or be given a BCD. He would then begin the work of reconstructing a Marine.
The Army chose to kick the can down the road.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:00 am 97. James:

A problem in any large organization is the tendency of some managers to transfer their problem personnel.

Once, while working as a division manager for a large multinational that regularly appears on “best managed” lists, I asked Human Resources to supply a clerk-typist. They recommended a woman who was working in Human Resources. In due course it became clear that they had taken the opportunity to dump an incompetent who I had to terminate.

In my military experience (Army, 1950s) problem personnel were routinely transferred.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:09 am 98. trangbang68:

Angel Martin, you’re giving Dr.Jihad’s lawyer a new defense; sexually frustrated Muzzie syndrome. How can anyone blame him when the koran (small k intentional) promises that heaven is the Playboy Mansion for mass murdering psychopathic dirtbags who chant Allah Akbar as they change magazines? Can’t a brother get some love?

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:09 am 99. Rock:

At my post # 37 I made a spelling mistake that I need to correct. It should now correctly read:

@12. trangbang68: “pencil necked geeks and px warriors.”

I hear you Trangbang. It looks to me like the REMFs are still at large and infesting the military worse than ever.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:13 am 100. Unsk:

I’m sorry for my previous post on David Axelrod.

There at least two well known David Axelrods. One is an advisor to the President. The other is Trotsky’s great grandson and Israeli terrorist. They are not the same person, despite numerous posts on the internet to the contrary.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:31 am 101. Doug:

California GOP Representative David Dhreyer reports that The Shooter called for beheading infidels in front of a bunch of doctors at Walter Reed.
Doctors remarked about it, but somehow the train ran on.

Looks like
73. john marzan
has the link.

As Prager says “Politically Correct”

is a Politically Correct way of describing something much more sinister in it’s results.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:35 am 102. geoffgo:

Multi-culti PC begets vigilantyism. After action analysis shows it’s been a binary and violent and rapid transition.

Not calling Ft Hood terrorism does Muslims here in the US no good. It kicks the can, encourages festering hatred.

The relevant question then is “how atrocious must radical Muslim behaviour get, before US citizenry takes matters into its own hands in self-defense?” Backlash will have seemed too gentle a term. Herein, separating the sheep from the goats is impossible, especially since we’ll be in a hurry after the atrocity.

Multi-culti PC has seemingly infected many posters here. Internment would be enacted to protect Muslims, with at least the same morality and motivation that drove it back in 1941, when we found ourselves in a hurry to deal with the JAPs. The decision was whether to deport all the JAPS back to their homeland (or to some island on the way); back to where they had no homes or jobs, where they would be looked on as US spies, and to where we were surely going to bomb them to extinction shortly – or to offer them succor here in the Homeland. They were all given the option of returning to Japan.

All those interned JAPs survived, unharmed and healthy, in spite of being surrounded by an enormous US population made increasing aware of the JAP atrocities everyhwere else.

Japan surrendered unconditionally. The interned were free to go. Most spoke better English. I didn’t like it, but it’s Best Solution Possible, when they all look like sheep or goats and you’re in a hurry.

Let’s get this straight! Internment was a courageous and beneficent act at the time. Exemplary US generosity, when we were fighting “their kind” to the death. It’s that separating sheep or goat problem, using a stopwatch, with your survival hinging on your powers of descrimmination.

So, how do we persuade Islam to surrender unconditionally? So it will be safe to release from the internment camps, all the Ragheads, Mussies, jihadis-in-waiting -whatever they will end up being characterized as by a really angry nation? Dearborn? I mean now we can’t send even convicted jihadis back where they came from, because they’re considered bad guys there.

See having gone to all the trouble of rounding up a group of “untrustworthy” people, some/many/unknown % sworn to destroy US, others supportive of the notion, all of’em aligned against US law, while all the while protecting and supporting them, but with NO surrender possible, then the inclination will be overwhelming to turn the detention centers into deportation camps, or worse. And, the US population will not be any less angry and increasingly impatient to git’er done.

Muslims must find a way to stop the can kicking soon. First allegiance to Islam has to go, or they’re all be seen as goats.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:48 am 103. Kirk Parker:

bogie wheel(23):

Can the same be urged of non-jihadi Muslims? … Are there any pro-active (as opposed to reactive) things they could do[?]

Sure, they could start by driving out all the wahhabist imams from their mosques. And if that means also doing without Saudi money, well then so be it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:53 am 104. Doug:

“Let’s get this straight! Internment was a courageous and beneficent act at the time. Exemplary US generosity, when we were fighting “their kind” to the death.”
—
So EASY to mount the high horse of superiority from a position of abstract safety.

Lucky for us, those that were there were more honest, and had better sense.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:54 am 105. Josh:

I want to say something positive here. I’ve said some negative stuff, and agree with a ton of negative stuff already posted, but perhaps that’s the very point, that these negative views are increasingly widely held, and that is positive!

First, I think the MSM has taken a deep breath and pretty much reported this accurately. Yes, they’re now trying to downplay it, with stuff like sympathy fatigue, and a survey of all mass-shootings over the past five years, etc. But that’s legitimate, … sort of.

Second, we’ve had some Muslim spokespersons get on the tube and say this was awful, period. That means, (a) that there are such people who will say these things, and (b) they have *finally* learned not to issue at the same time qualifications about jihad, yada yada. For all I know they could still be lying bastard taqqiyonomists (just made up that word), but even the facade of a real apology and disclaimer and revulsion, is a step in the right direction, IMHO. And I’m going to take a deep breath myself and assume there is at least some sincerity at work here.

Third, the public seems to get it. It is not a shock to *anyone* when another case of SJS pops up, and only the Keith Olbermanns or maybe Bill Mahers of the world still think this is chickens coming home to roost or a brave cultural tradition at work, etc.

–

Speculative analysis – maybe the American public has now had it to here with “jihad”. If it took us eight years to learn, well, learn we have. And, just maybe, having acted out some kind of weird self-flagellation ritual by electing a guy named Barack Hussein Obama as president in the aftermath of 9/11, the public now has the freedom to start seeing the jihad side of Islam for just what it is.

It might even turn out to be a teachable moment for POTUS himself, he must in reflection be able to see the degree of his gaffes over the last couple of days. So it was definitely a teachable moment, let’s see if he has a matching learnable moment.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:55 am 106. Doug:

“First, I think the MSM has taken a deep breath and pretty much reported this accurately. ”

WTF?
—
“It might even turn out to be a teachable moment for POTUS himself, he must in reflection be able to see the degree of his gaffes over the last couple of days.”

Good Afghan Hash, Josh.
Thanks.

Obama Reminds Nation of Military’s Diversity

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:04 am 107. Doug:

“Sure, they could start by driving out all the wahhabist imams from their mosques.”

Kirk,

Since that isn’t going to happen,
maybe the FBI can do the job.

We wish.

—
But, speaking in his weekly address, he seemed to urge Americans not to dwell on the faith of the assailant, by reminding the nation of the broad diversity of those who serve.

“They are Americans of every race, faith, and station,” he said. “They are Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus and nonbelievers.”

— all the same,
except we’re the worst.
Luckily, he keeps our appologies up to date.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:08 am 108. dkite:

AZM: I think you would have no problem with this crowd. It was the author of the New Deal who last threw people into internment camps.

To anyone not blinded by multicultural fictions, as far as we can know by the news reports, Hasan was obviously trouble. Not because of his religion, but because of his political bent and what he said.

If Muslims are rounded up and put into internment camps, it will be a result of utter failure to consider the obvious. Failure is the wrong word. Refusal. A refusal that leads to an untenable situation requiring extreme action.

It is the left, and lazy politicians/bureaucrats that force immigrants into the welcoming arms of state sponsored official organizations representing a given ethnic group.

Derek

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:13 am 109. bogie wheel:

JMH @ 63:

It occurs to me the most patriotic, pro-active thing non-jihadi Muslims could do would be to speak out against the political correctness. Speak out against CAIR and against the family of this latest murderous bastard who are claiming he was the victim. Speak out – loudly and as a group – against the MSM trying to white-wash the radical connection.

I think we are past the point where words alone will have much effect. Tragically, the window of opportunity in which actions (such as those I suggested above) will be believed to be sincerely motivated, may also be closing, too.

That’s why I think that Muslims of good will need to get ahead of the curve, pronto. Because if (likely “when”) things change, they will change so suddenly and dramatically that it will be too late for laying groundwork.

“Beware the fury of a patient man.”

VDH has written about what he terms the Western way of war, and how it is linked to the Western democratic temperament. To summarize, it’s a beast that is slow to anger, and may seem for a long, long time to be indolent, even fatally so … but that appearance is deceptive. Because its reaction will come not gradually but suddenly, and that reaction will be more severe than can be imagined.

Joe Hill @ 45:

Great points, Joe, and if your analysis is correct, then we indeed have a case of irresistible force meets immovable object, and, in the words of that great Johnny Mercer song, somethin’s gotta give.

I once remarked to a friend that my loyalties, excluding family & Steeler Nation, lie in the following hierarchy: I am a Christian first, then an American, then a conservative, and then, dead last, a Republican. My friend expressed surprise that I would put Christian before American. I said I would not be a true Christian if it were not so.

IMV there is nothing in the Constitution or Declaration that instructs or compels me to put Christ anywhere other than first, or to live in any manner that I believe to be unChristian. The American system, as conceived, accommodates my faith by respecting it and butting the h*ll out. (The American system as presently practiced is another story.)

I’m not a religious scholar so I cannot say … but are there even *any* interpretations of the Koran or scholarship in the various branches of Islam that would instruct peaceful coexistence with our Constitution and Declaration? I’m not asking for devout Muslims to love and live contemporary American culture. Cripes, I myself think about 95% of it is garbage or worse. And as a Christian it offends me to no end. But if the Constitution as written is problematic for someone’s religion, than that person’s religion can quickly become problematic for me as an American citizen.

mac @ 91:

In all honesty, mac, there’s a chance you could be right. OTOH, maybe not. Unless an omniscient deity can step in and resolve this one by direct public revelation, we have to muddle through this conjecture as best we can.

Here are the two positions:

1. “Out of the billion+ Muslims on the planet, there is not one single ‘moderate’ [here defined as able to peacefully coexist with/among Western societies] among them.”

2. “Out of the billion+ Muslims on the planet, there are some moderates among them.”

Both these things cannot be true at the same time in the same way. Not being God, I don’t know & can’t say with absolute certainty that #1 is wrong. I just know that it is statistically a lot more unlikely than #2. I also believe (along with Wretchard, if I am reading him correctly), that acting on the assumption that #1 is true is, at least at this point in time, an approach more likely to push people & events towards #1 becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If Joe Hill is right and there is no practical room in any Islamic teaching anywhere that allows for a Muslim to agree in good conscience to live under the principles of our Constitution and Declaration, then Muslims who are American citizens and residents are going to have to decide which identity means more to them and, just as importantly, Americans and the American government are going to have to come up with a process or mechanism that forces Muslim citizens and residents to commit accordingly and publicly (and to flush out and punish those who would lie in such a profession).

OTOH if Mr. Hill is off by even a margin, and if there is some sliver of a theological escape clause in Islamic scholarship somewhere that allows for good conscience Western citizenship for Muslims, then for God’s sake let’s find that escape clause and exploit it for all it’s worth. Because it will be worth untold number of human lives in the long run.

I don’t find declarations that assume 100% knowledge of the future or 100% knowledge of every individual among huge people groups to be very helpful … they tend to, at best, restrict options and, at worst, force the worst scenarios to come to pass.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:20 am 110. Kirk Parker:

Sylvia (40),

For loyalty to be a virtue, must it be absolute?

Of course not–that might actually be dangerous. In fact, it’s the absolute nature of Muslim loyalty that’s so troubling–you have folks in law enforcment, for heaven’s sake, saying that they won’t surveil their co-religionists who might be criminals. Have you ever heard of a Christian here in the US saying such a thing?

Pascal Fervor (55),

Is there such an executive order? I thought it was up to each base commander.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:21 am 111. Kingston53:

My understanding is that until recently muslim immigration was in large part deterred by the fear among muslims that contact with the west would result in their assimilation and abandonment of islam. This changed with the adoption of multi-centralism which maintained that all cultures are of equal standing and therefore removed the impetus to assimilate. The end result of this is the isolation and alienation that leads to home grown jihad. So what do we do? Can we create an environment that would be hostile to continued muslim immigration. Impose loyalty oaths? Make muslims deny the Koran? Any suggestions?

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:25 am 112. Habu:

105. Josh

I believe your made up word,taqqiyonomists, would be a quntuple word score with Oak Leaf Cluster.

It’s that kind of thinking outside the sforqutimque (made it up)that will help this great nation move forward. Bravo !

Lincoln, quoted often in the last few days would be proud of us thinking anew. Or is it thinking about gnus’?

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:31 am 113. geoffgo:

VK45:

That may be true but these ’single digit percentages’ are perhaps 100-fold higher (only my guesstimate of course) than the percentages for non-islamic ‘bad guys’ i.e. a Muslim would be 100x more prone to this kind of violence than would a non-Muslim.

Well your 100X guestimate could approach infinity, no? Besides, that’s only the qualitative. If just 1% are infected with SJS, there’s between 25,000 and 60,000 jihadis ready to explode right here in River City. Of course, if the percentage of Muslims ready to explode is actually 10%, then we have a really big problem, no? Hard to know.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:33 am 114. Batman:

bogie wheel @88: Your dad must have suffered greatly from his schizophrenia. That illness, which looks more and more like it has a strong biological causation, is a terrible curse that afflicts good and bad people alike. And there is every reason to recognize your dad as one of the good guys.

While under the sway of the worst of his illness, you say he had a break from reality but not from morality. That is precisely my point. Your father had a condition that distorted his perceptions of events and altered his sense of logic but did not eradicate his moral compass.

That distinguishes him from evil men like Hasan. Whether Hasan has an underlying psychiatric illness or not, the core of what he did was immoral and evil and he must be held responsible for it.

boogie wheel, I guess on rereading your post, we are totally on the same page. There are sane and good, sane and evil, insane and good, and insane and evil. Only rarely is genuine mental illness a factor in the determination of good and evil, and only rarely is the insanity defense justified.

Your dad obviously transmitted his moral code to you. Thanks.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:40 am 115. Doug:

Hasan adopted victimhood.
Morality need not apply.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:44 am 116. Pascal Fervor:

Doug @115.

Victimoguery is afoot.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:57 am 117. Rock:

Ahem!

I don’t know if any of you here have read the essay at the following link posted at Gates of Vienna blog back in 2008. I suspect that the old timers here at BC have read this. It expands upon Islam’s influence on Europe and the possible consequences. Possible scenarios in this article include some mentioned here at BC in the last day or so. It is a bit lengthy but well worth the time. The title of the essay is called, “Surrender, Genocide… or What?” Check it out:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/04/surrender-genocide-or-what.html#readfurther

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:58 am 118. JFSanders031:

This is slightly OT due to the Ft.Hood thread being closed to comments. But I need to say it. So pardon my OT. Thank you in advance.

Eggplant“I assume the Iranians have devised some sort of Br’er Rabbit/tar-baby strategy. How do the Iranians benefit by having the Israelis whack them?”

If your country is being run by people who believe that the return of the “13th Imam” can only happen with Armageddon then you have your answer. Remember, to these people dieing is what it is all about. Once you die then all the heavens are opened to you. As long as you die furthering the cause of Allah as taught to you by Mullah Omar.

72. Dr. Sidiqi “Stop killing Moslems around the world and they won’t KILL YOU.”

Well I am sure the innocent Moslems (who haven’t killed any Moslems to be sure) being blown up by Allah’s PBUH Jihadis are just perplexed by your statement.

Let us make things simpler for all concerned. Let us call a truce for 2 years so that the Jihadis may assemble their might and men. Then let us pick a place say the Gobi desert it being a fairly neutral place. Then it will be decided.

But that will never happen. WHY!? you ask. It too is simple. Because those that you place all of your trust and faith in have not one scintilla of a desire to see an end to this conflict. WHY OH WHY!!!? you ask. It unfortunately is even more simple. Because those in whom you place your faith and trust crave the power and control they have acquired from you and those who believe as you do. Quite simply all of the death and destruction that you see around you is wrought from your own beliefs.

Tcobb “5. He will relocate to another country.”

There are many men who will do their level best to see that the country he relocates to is not of this earth…

Now for the topic at hand.

The saying goes. “I fight for GOD and Country.” I would add family or more importantly my progeny. It is my opinion that the average person who follows Islam is just like the average Christian. And as such is just as protected by the Constitution of the U.S. as any other citizen. We cannot afford to judge a man by his unknown intentions. We as a society must operate on the rule of law or suffer the consequences of being ruled over by a strongman. I will not prejudge any man be he Christian, Muslim, Deist or any other “religion”. I WILL judge any man by his actions. Major Hasan gave many and explicit indications of impending action. He was purposely moved to save some political superior the angst and possible career killing decision to start separation/UCMJ proceedings. This is NOT a good thing for our military. But as it is a top down systemic problem it can only be repaired at the will and pleasure of the CIC and we all know how that will turn out at this time.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:59 am 119. Lucy:

@105 “It might even turn out to be a teachable moment for POTUS himself, he must in reflection be able to see the degree of his gaffes over the last couple of days.”

The only thing Buraq can reflect upon is his own magnificent image in the mirror.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:05 am 120. Habu:

…and if they deide to eschew the bomb for sending a few hundred infected humans to the US, what then?

They will never integrate with weatern culture. They are trying to destroy it.

We are simply kicking the can down the road. Kill them before they destroy us.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:09 am 121. Kirk Parker:

Doug (107), I stand in awe of your prescience; but even so don’t you see even a little difference between (a) declining to hire/listen to someone as your imam, and (b) having the government surveil and deport that same person? I’d far rather accomplish the task with (a) if possible; maybe you see it differently.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:10 am 122. Josh:

I think most of BH0’s advisors will be on him about this, that’s mostly the kind of reflection I had in mind.

It’s an interesting job of forensic psychology to try to guess if he would watch a tape of his first reaction and personally think well or poorly of it, even in hindsight.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:11 am 123. toad:

Well the genie is out of the bottle. People that I knew who used to say don’t classify all Muslims as the same are saying, “I’ll trust them when they start cleaning their house.” or “Never trust a Muslim.”
As far as armed soldiers on base, people are looking at how other countries handle it, i. e. Israel and Switzerland.
I’m hearing that officers should have a pistol and enlisted a rifle in reach at all times.
This won’t happen of course, now.
Another massacre will happen again though. Some Muslim in a gun free zone. Then it will hit the fan; tar and feathers, pitchforks and rails.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:22 am 124. Pascal Fervor:

Thanks to all who’ve tried to answer my #55, but I’ve still not a definitive answer. I’m still hoping to hear from a well-informed BC member.

69. SpeakEasy: You sound experienced, but you’re appearance here is new to me.

How is it that civilian CCWs don’t “get lit” on a regular basis? Because it seems they want to keep their right to carry much more than simply letting loose.

(Of course, I’m sure we’re all awaiting the first moby to provide ammunition (as it were) to the Brady types and their lap-dog media in order to jump-start their next campaign against personal defense.)

So why would the hand-full of GIs who wished to carry be any different? AND they are subject to the UCMJ which is much harsher than their we are on civilians.

110. Kirk Parker: You may be correct that there is no Exec Order and that gun-ban orders are indeed left to each base commander’s discretion. It just seems so widely observed that one ought be forgiven for assuming the existence of such an order. At the least, if no direct order exists, there is the CYA “get with the program” unwritten order.

Beyond the blanket order, surely many officers that are not MPs may have sidearms as it is expected that they are to conduct themselves as gentlemen. Where was one of these who could have repelled Hasan? I’m still hoping to hear from a BC member who is well-informed with mil policies, decorum, and culture.

87. LOTM : No insult intended, but you made me laugh. You gave me pause to consider: “Was that LOTM’s thinking or http://mrnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/’s thinking?

You wrote: “FreeRepublic got it wrong.”
Did he get it wrong that the defense of public safety failed?
Did he get it wrong when he acknowledged that all the preps to prevent the appearance of an “life-reaping gun” (that is blue-est of the blue cities type thinking) on base failed? I think it could be inferred that the FReeper included the difficulty in scrutinizing an officer and a gentleman was indeed part of the problem. He was looking to provide fuel for his argument that a few trustees ought have the privilege to CCW on base. We all understand that such thinking is not allowed in NYC, but you’ve shown yourself to be above the rest often enough. Hence my inclination to laugh.

And yes, this “major” should never have seen that rank, but as our institutions get ossified, near everything that is not supposed to happen seems to and near every preventative has the opposite effect. Would you like to operate a “Jiffylube” franchise that changes our republic’s oil?

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:12 am 125. marymcl:

@77 Karen Yvonne
~ “Really, any truth-telling about Islam is de facto criticism of it and will provoke the murderous wrath of the radical true believers.” ~

@109 bogie wheel
~ “…if there is some sliver of a theological escape clause in Islamic scholarship somewhere that allows for good conscience Western citizenship for Muslims, then for God’s sake let’s find that escape clause and exploit it for all it’s worth.” ~

This is where we run into a deeper problem than Major Hasan. It’s the moderate Muslim who wants to curtail free speech by characterizing any criticism of Muslim teaching or behavior as a hate crime. It’s the moderate Muslim whose first and only response to any act of violence done in the name of his religion is a paranoid defensiveness that betrays total acceptance of the worst PC caricatures of America.

Which brings me to Bogie’s point – Muslims have to find that escape clause themselves, we can’t find it for them. My concern is that the American Muslim community at large doesn’t even seem to be looking.

@120 Habu

Much as I hate to say this, because I respect your experience and service to the country and place a high value on your contributions to the forum here, your beating the “Kill them all” drum on a thread concerned largely with the Muslims living in America strikes me as reckless and irresponsible. I happen to think Islam itself is a hateful ideology that the world would be far better off without. Nevertheless, I also agree completely with Lifeof theMind @20 above that we each have a moral responsibility to protect the innocent. As stated elsewhere, when I worked at the county hospital I dealt with Muslim families every day and came to know many Muslim children from birth. If I were to witness any red white and blue vigilante trying to cause any of them harm I hope to God I would do everything in my power to stop it. I’d like to believe you would do the same.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:16 am 126. RWE:

Geogffgo #102:

As Michell Malkin has described, the interned Japanese were only prohibited from living on the West Coast. They could move out of the camps and go anywhere they wished elsewhere in the country. Of course, their reception would have not been warm outside of their own communities, but they simply did not have to just sit in Manzanar and the other places.

This act was spurred not just by racism but by the fact that a Japanese pilot crashed his Zero on one of the outlying Hawaiian islands during the attack on Pearl Harbor and succeeded in rousing a few of the Japanese Americans and Japanese immigrants to take over the place, using the machine guns from the Zero.

Any US born of Japanese descent calling openly for an enemy victory – or for withdrawal from the Pacific – or who praised the Kamikazes – would have been locked up securely, probably for good. Today the Muslims get away with it.

As Wretchard so aptly puts it they were mostly trying to escape all that. And that is true for everyone who comes here. Today’s multiculturalism means that they can’t, or at least that the few who do want to impose their culture on others get to do so. Even worse, multiculturalism means that they are taught to think that they should be praising and promoting the virtues of the land and culture they sought to escape from.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:22 am 127. NahnCee:

I absolutely love it that a person of the female persuasion is responsible for stopping bluntly and with force this derangoid who thinks that a misogynisic religion like Islam is something to be adhered to. Makes me wonder what all the shrouded and burka-clad estrogen-enhanced humans across the Muslim world might be thinking to themselves with this female police officer as a role model for what *they* (or their daughters) might aspire towards.

I’ve often wondered to myself why Muslim women don’t seem to have discovered the wonders of poison in evening up the burdens they are placed under. I guess maybe through a millennia or two of selective breeding, at the same time they were breeding women for “more stupid” they might have also been breeding them for “less brave”. But, as has been noted, Colt is a great equalizer, especially for those who are more stupid and less brave and being forced into a marriage (or a gang rape) at the age of 12.

///

I am inclined not to trust ANY Muslims. I base that prejudice upon interaction I had with my first known Muslim back in the 1990’s at a West Coast university. None of us had any idea what Islam was at the time, and just went on the assumption that it was some sort of polka-dot colored version of Catholocism, Judaism or Buddhism. The Muslim in question was a “Persian” refugee — even then they didn’t want to be called Iranian, and thought the rest of us were too stupid to know the difference. His name was Mahmoud, he was extremely good-looking, and a pet of the Provost (who also had a propensity for handsome boy students).

I took away a confused recollection of the time I spent with Mahmoud, and a not-good overall impression. Specifically, I remember he was desperate to remain in the United States and not be returned to Iran. The University’s Provost was exploring all legal avenues to make sure that happened but had thus far been unsuccessful. Mahmoud absolutely refused to consider the option of marrying an American woman. I’m remembering that he actually said he considered them to be inferior, but he definitely would have preferred to return to torture in Iran than to marry an American woman and stay in the US.

He was also astonished that palms couldn’t be greased or laws bent to enable him to stay — he was, after all, beautiful and educated so why couldn’t he stay in his proteced position under the wing of the Provost for ever?

Finally, my other main recollection of him was an uncomfortable lunch we had with him one day. It was a casual thing, no big deal, supposed to be full of shallow feel-good chit-chat. But, what he did was issue the waiter horribly tedious instructions on exactly how his lunch was to be prepared, complete with several substitutions. Then, when it was served, he sent things back two or three times because they weren’t good enough. His attitude throughout the lunch was one of superiority, both in that he demanded quality corn for his salad and that he enjoyed tormenting the waiter. I remember making eye-contact with the other lunch attendees, and we were all embarrassed by his behavior — and just didn’t understand it. Needless to say, there were no further lunch invitations and he may very well have ended up feeling rejected and alone.

Last I heard, he had migrated to another university, with presumably more power and a bigger wing to hide under and was still in the U.S. I would not be at all surprised to see his name and extremely good-looking mugshot in the news as the cause of a sudden jihad massacre of his own, because that was simply the vibe he gave off — unhappy, superior, frustrated, and more than willing to be mean to other people. In other words, a Muslim.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:44 am 128. toad:

And the shepherd boy cried, “No Wolf!” time after time always blaming the loss of the lamb on some other creature. Then when they realized that half their flock was gone they discovered the shepherd boy was just a skin containing a wolf.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:06 pm 129. twobyfour:

toad/123

There are radical muslims (according to Soddy princeling Najaf, a fraction… mere 10 % of all muslims), that prefer violent jihad, and then moderate muslims that prefer slow, demographic type of jihad. There is no difference between sunni and shia in that regard.

The muslims that don’t prefer any of it, aren’t really muslims and they sooner or later realize it–and given the niveau where it is possible to realize it–become either atheists, agnostics or switch their religion, usually to christianity. Actually, there are exceptions… In Iran, the fastest growing religion is christianity, despite the environment that is extremely hostile to it. Perhaps like christianity in the times of Roman Empire, it tends to thrive in adversity.

Some say that sufi branch of islam may have some redeemable qualities and presents a non-violent, laissez faire option. Hassissins were sufi, thought that was many a century ago. The issue is that they use the same tenent of faith as other branches. The satanic verses, traditions and interpretations, set in stone since 12th century–the time of islam’s reformation.

Lahore Ahmaddiyas seems to be the only group that stands apart, by the virtue of discarding the traditions and overlaying the koran with their own interpretational edifice, discarding the notions of jihad. But then, they are considered non-muslims by the mainstream muslims, and are not very numerous.

Until we decide to go to the core of it and commit deicide, we would always apply band-aids. We may eliminate the threat in one way or another locally, here and there, but the remaining ambers would, in time, get us to the same point.

How? Read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A Heinlein, just to get a hint how it can be done. You don’t need moon, just a nice orbit. Price tag–probably within $50 million, for everything else, there’s a master card.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:09 pm 130. ipw533:

Regarding the carrying of weapons by active duty soldiers in bases not in a war zone–Ft. Hood would have been one of those, as was Michael Barracks in Germany in 1984. I was routinely assigned overnight gate guard/CQ duty at Michael Barracks as a normal part of my duties there. The overnight gate guard wore a full combat uniform including LBE and steel helmet and carried an unloaded rifle (due to my MOS my service weapon was a .38 revolver); despite the terrorism threats of that time I know of no gate guards in Germany who were issued ammunition with their rifles.

Stateside (again my reference is 1980) all firearms were to be locked up in an arms room and issued only when specific training requirements called for the soldiers to have a loaded weapon; the rifle was issued by the arms room and ammunition was not issued until the soldier was ready to take up a firing position on the range. Enforcement was somewhat lax in those days; I had an Italian WWI bolt-action rifle (no ammo) in my locker for months before I sold it to a Marine NCO.

My problem with Hasan is that if he was such a bad officer, even as an MD, how the Hell did he manage to get promoted to a field grade rank? Is someone going to tell me this gut went from 2nd lieutenant to captain but only went bad when he became a major? And how long was he a major? I have a funny feeling the Army screwed the pooch on this one….

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:13 pm 131. Alexis:

wretchard:

What has to happen is to separate the sheep from the goats. To increase the contrast between innocence and guilt. Make loyalty a virtue again. And the only way that’s going to happen is by example. Here’s the way I see it: before a single Muslim child is stuck in the internment camp, the professor who taught his dad to be a jihadi should go first. Or are they going to pull the bwana routine when the going gets tough?

Yes, Major Nidal Malik Hassan must be put on court martial for murder and attempted murder. Yet, your comments illustrate precisely why he must also be put on trial for treason. The evidence is out there. I accuse Major Nidal Malik Hassan of treason against the people of the United States of America, of levying war against the American people, and adhering to our enemies. The question is whether the word “treason” means anything in a modern American context.

Although I am sure there are Saudi surrogates would be alarmed at the prospect of a treason trial against a professed Muslim, a treason trial of this sort would help patriotic Muslims distance themselves from tyrants, traitors, and psychopaths who masquerade their opinions as “Islam”. If a treason trial does not happen in the twenty-first century, the likely result would be to give credence to the “Big Lie” professed by America’s enemies that Islam is merely a code word for killing Americans and nothing more than that.

It would be interesting if Major Nidal Malik Hassan claimed innocence by reason of insanity. Yet, politically speaking, this would be an easy way out. It would merely be “kicking the can down the road” until we encounter the next nut who proclaims Islam as his religion convinces himself he will go to Heaven if he does exactly the same thing as Major Nidal Malik Hassan just did.

A treason trial against Major Nidal Malik Hassan would make it easier for Muslims to be accepted as fellow Americans. If he is not put on trial for treason, Islam will be put on trial in the court of public opinion whether Saudi surrogates like it or not.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:15 pm 132. Subotai Bahadur:

#87 LoTM
Well reasoned but we may be at a point where the Army takes charge of it’s own and starts decoupling from the NCA. Remember the scene in The Godfather where the cops set Vito up in the hospital and Tom sends over the licensed private security?

I would welcome such. If the Army is taking a stand that its Oath to the Constitution is more important than protecting the political gluts of the NCA, it is a sign of hope. I do note, however, that the larger facility does give more opportunity for a transient outsider to pass unnoticed.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:24 pm 133. nobozons:

I blame the army because they failed to expunge him because he is a Muslim. I couldn’t sign up to be a second class citizen in the army because I am not a Muslim. The army and the government has defiled me.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:25 pm 134. nobozons:

I guess it’s time for a little hate. Too many times Muslims have kill Americans in their own country. Its time for us to take revenge on Muslims. Having Muslims in this country is too risky. Each time they commit a terrorist act our government tells us its not a terrorist act. Yet if a white does a similar crime it is.
Stop paying your taxes.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:31 pm 135. Konyok:

A couple of details are bothering me:

A) The dominant narrative about Major Hasan, derived from comments by his relatives, is that he was frustrated at his inability to obtain a “discharge” from the army. The time line seems to indicate that he has completed his enlistment requirement. As an officer and a gentleman in the U.S. Army, did he not have the option of resigning his commission whenever he wanted?

B) Was the processing center Major Hasan’s duty station at Ft. Hood? Reading the recycled NYT article in my local rag, I was sickened by the description of the “target rich environment” – at least 300 soldiers in a large open space of cubicles. If he worked in that building there might just be a “work place violence” fig leaf for his rampage, though climbing up on a desk and shouting Allahu Akbar! requires impressive mental contortions to accept that thesis. If, on the other hand, he worked in ANOTHER building and attacked the processing center because of the concentration of potential victims, it is impossible to view this as anything other than a jihadi terrorist attack. (This might be why the Army continues to investigate possible accomplices.)

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:34 pm 136. John Lynch:

The real problem, as I see it, is that Muslim advocacy organizations immediately try to make every mass-murder story about them. They claim that they’ll be victimized as a result of an overreaction to the acts of a few. Then, they turn to their own grievances in an implicit attempt to excuse the mass murder as a natural response to discrimination. Media organizations often perpetuate this meme without realizing how much damage it does to the people they are trying to protect.

In contrast, other organizations are quick to condemn and distance themselves from the acts of a follower who goes too far. A case in point was the terrorism committed by the anti-abortion activist earlier this year, when he murdered a doctor in a church. The pro-life movement almost universally condemned the act and renounced violence as a means for achieving their goal. They didn’t engage in mealy-mouthed discussions of how they were the real victims.

Grievance ideology only goes so far, and in the end more people resent the supposed victims. I think Wretchard is dead on about this.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:36 pm 137. John Lynch:

Also, I think it’s important to remember that the US Constitution forbids a religious test for government officials. It’s not even an amendment, but in the original document. You cannot prohibit Muslims from joining or remaining in the Army.

Hassan should have been discharged for a number of reasons, but not for being a Muslim.

We also should remember that we did not win in Iraq without millions of Muslims on our side, and we have zero chance of winning in Afghanistan without Muslim allies. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died for their country. Muslims per se are not the enemy.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:40 pm 138. JMH:

Well, apparently, Maj. Moslem attended a mosque while stationed at Walter Reed that had a prayer leader from the main Saudi backed Wahhabi lobby in the US, and is connected to the Al-Haramain Foundation, an Islamic “charity” group under indictment for terror financing.

Just one minute

If we’re going to avoid the internment camps, we have to shut down the Wahhabi indoctination centers.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:47 pm 139. Habu:

125. marymcl:

You Don’t Need A Weatherman To Know Which Way The Wind Blows

Your angst is misplaced.
I do not need to watch another mass attack on this country by a muslim, another presidential candidate gunned down by a muslim, or reread the history of the Barbary Pirates who harassed and killed Americans in our infancy. I do not need to reread the quran or have it explained to me or relearn that it was the Arabs that sided with Adolf Hitler in WWII and were against the west in The Great War. Obviously some do need these lessons brought to light again.
It is the moral duty of a country, especially our Republic to defend itself by the means at our disposal. The quran is not going to change it’s teachings by which all muslims are bound under penalty of death to follow. So what does the quran say about infidels? It says kill them. Are we to simply go like sheep to a slaughter..you may have my place in line because I ain’t go’in.

There is no easier ideology to understand in it’s idea of killing infidels than islam. It is their duty. It is your business if you decide that one voice pointing this out and demanding a killing great enough to halt their process is too much. I would say that it is too much for a citizen to be willing to absorb islamic tripe and coddle their ideology so they can continue to kill

I do not understand the mindset of those who are warned that they will be killed and allow it to happen. Please explain to me the history of islam as a peaceful ideology. Somwhow I missed that lesson. Your defense is part of the problem not my call for a lesson so horrific as to slow them down.

I did not initiate the murderour ideology they follow but i am aware enough to know it is aimed at me, for I am an infidel.

Your sentiments would be better written to Daniel Pearl’s widow for your words fall under my eyes with a revulsion that one can be so callous as to support islam.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:50 pm 140. Alexis:

John Lynch:

I agree with you. Our enemies want people throughout the world (and especially Americans) to believe that one cannot be a pious Muslim and be a patriotic American at the same time. That was very clearly the worldview of Sayed Qutb and his writings are at the heart of “Islamist” rantings.

I do think that religious proselytizing (for any religion) within our armed forces (on government time) ought to be forbidden.

I have a very low opinion of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:53 pm 141. Josh:

According to this NPR report he was already clearly psycho at Walter Reed.

I have to say it looks like his fellow shrinks let it go by. I’m not shocked, just disappointed, y’know.

According to press reports on tv last night, he’d been giving away his belongings and copies of the Koran for several weeks, not to mention going out and buying these weapons ideally designed for mayhem.

Finally, although I’ve seen the tv reports of his fellow mosque-members in Texas decrying his actions without reservation – I have to wonder about other mosque members not seen on the tv who might have known about his plans in advance.

So … must I revise my diagnosis of SJS? Well, of course, the very title is a saracastic oxymoron, but I suppose, as SJS goes, this one has to be a little less sudden than some.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:59 pm 142. whiskey:

Wretchard –

Hassan was protected BECAUSE he was a Muslim. His religion and Arab ethnicity automatically makes him part of the “protected class” and thus basically immune from any punishment for anything save shooting and killing a bunch of people. This is no different than the Muslim sergeant that fragged officers in Kuwait prior to the invasion of Iraq, he too was immune from punishment and discipline because he was Muslim.

That is just the way it is — it provides a Devshirme or Dragoman class, in the “New Ottoman Empire” by which the few White elites use cynically non-Whites as privileged folk who cannot usurp their own power position and can be relied upon to oppress the real threat: the common White majority. The way it was done for the Sultans in the Ottoman Empire. It is ’stable’ in that it can persist for centuries, but weak in that most resources are spent keeping the Sultan in power not making the nation strong. Given that a nations strength resides in its people not its leaders.

I note there is no woman in the man Hassan’s life. This is the other feature of polygamy. Enforce, Cho/Sodini loners, without anything to trudge wearily through life for, suicide and afterlife sex with virgins makes “sense” to this class. Islam by hoarding “available” women for a few creates a suicide jihad class of near-Chos and Sodinis.

As for internment, that is inevitable come the destruction of NYC, DC, and a few other cities, about 3-12 million US dead, and shouts of “Allah Akbar!” from US and foreign Muslims. Americans will do what they have to survive, and the reality is that anyone who could potentially BE Muslim would be a threat in a society where technology makes even weak and fractured groups (Aum Shin Rykio, AQ, Jamaat Islamiyah, etc.) deadly. Yes innocent, patriotic Muslims will get in the neck. Technology does many good things but it makes otherwise loser groups as potentially powerful as the Wehrmacht and Imperial Japan at their height.

BUT … this was entirely foreseeable, and Western Muslims had a choice: fight their extremist neighbors, brothers, fathers, cousins, and uncles to death or get in the neck in the end when the majority has had enough. “Moderate” Muslims chose their fate and will like all of us pay one way or another in the end.

Just as ordinary Americans will get a fight one way or another, either here or over there, so too will ordinary Muslims in the West get a fight, one way or another. There is no avoiding it and all have chosen. May God have mercy on all of us.

Let me add this is not unique to Muslims — the Mormons in Utah in the 1850’s massacred (Mountain Meadows Massacre) women, children, old people, and men, who were like themselves: White, Anglo, American, many from the same region with the same accents, backgrounds, culture, and of course nationality. Polygamy is a curse, it creates violent societies that can only find peace by killing non-polygamous neighbors. If White, Anglo, Mormons would kill with sadistic pleasure 12 year old girls and boys, let alone women and men, then any group subject to polygamy will produce reliably individual Cho/Sodini/Hassans, AND “supergroups” of these killers.

Mormons were “saved” by the Civil War and a spate of blood-letting, and the rather imposing threat of the US Cavalry in the area. Even so the bad blood and distrust remains to this day, with almost all non-Mormons having an extremely negative view of them. There is a lesson there.

Of course Wretchard is wrong — MOST Muslims seek not to escape from Islam/Sharia but impose it on the West as conquerors. This truth also has to be acknowledged. About 40% of Muslims polled in the UK want Sharia law, the probable true response is likely over 60%.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:03 pm 143. nobozons:

Taken from Mark Styne “But he opposed America’s actions in the Middle East and Afghanistan, and made approving remarks about jihadists on American soil. “You need to lock it up, Major,” cautioned his superior officer, Col. Terry Lee.” I think that Col. Terry Lee should be charged for not having him arrested for treason. It was like yelling fire in a theater.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:08 pm 144. Subotai Bahadur:

130. ipw533

We do not take base security at all seriously. Back when what is now Schriever AFB was under construction [ before it was and AFS] and the SDI Testbed Facility was newly operational and the 50th Space Wing was just moving in, I had occasion to be invited to visit. That required more than a passing strenuous background check, including biometrics. We were escorted by an AF Major, who was not pleased when I firmly pointed out afterwards that his facility was wide open to direct attack.

The AP’s at the gate [I know, they are SP's now and have been for a while but I am an old fart] all carried unloaded weapons. At the time the access road was a straight shot to the critical buildings we had just been in. There were no barriers other than a wooden swing arm between the highway and facility. No forced jogs in traffic, no concrete barriers. This was after the Lebanon truck bomb that killed 200+ Marines. I pointed out that an equivalent could cripple our SDI effort and critically impinge on our ability to operate our military satellites. Trusting our duty sentries to be ‘locked and loaded’ and spending a little on concrete and asphalt was the cheap way to fix it.

I have not been back since it was Falcon Air Force Station and before it became Schriever AFB, but they had not changed anything at that time. I have only seen Air Force physical security be serious twice. When I was a kid, we used the all the gates to Lowry AFB at will on our bikes. The one called the SAC gate was used for moving missiles on trailers in and out, and was open all the time except when a movement was expected. Then it was guarded by serious types with automatic weapons. A couple of times, riding our bikes on the way to the base library, we were covered by said weapons as we pedalled towards the gate. Our normal response was to pull an 180 and to ride up the street to the next gate.

I have had other occasions to visit active missile silo control capsules at Warren AFB. The first time, after going through the clearance procedure and even though we were being escorted by the Ops Officer of the Missile Wing, we were being covered by an M-60 machine gun manned by some very serious young men as we cleared to go to the access point to the elevator. I was favorably impressed by that and all of the other security arrangements I was briefed on. I returned about the time of Desert Storm, and they had downgraded the physical security procedures drastically. I will not detail it, but I was not happy.

We are at war, and the enemy is inside our borders. We have to be ready for attacks on our military facilities, as well as on our civilians. And we do not have the political will to do so.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:12 pm 145. Josh:

Very good little comment on this at Powerline today, too.

Yesterday, Obama warned us against jumping to conclusions. Now, as we predicted, it’s pretty clear that Obama has no intention of coming to any conclusions, ever. He ponders the deep mystery of why Malik Nadal Hasan, whom he refers to only as “an Army psychiatrist,” thought it was a good idea to murder American soldiers…

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:22 pm 146. Lifeofthemind:

ipw533,
Remember that physicians start as Captains (O-3) so making Major means one promotion after receiving his medical license. If as I believe he went through the Uniformed College of the Health Sciences to get his degree then his time at the O-1 and O-2 ranks of 2LT and 1LT were spent as a student. Bad as he was it is hard to miss those promotions.

At one time almost all doctors in America spent time as Residents in the military or VA systems and most had some prior contact with the military. That is no longer true and the armed services have to compete with other sources of scholarship funding for potential doctors. It is very hard for the DoD to get doctors, compare the income of a civilian Cardiologist with 10 years experience and an active duty LT Colonel (O-5), even with bonuses it is a hard sell. For the lower paid specialty of Psychiatrist it might be easier to recruit. The DoD wants more minority doctors, for legitimate or at least defensible reasons, and given the outside opportunities they find it very hard to recruit them. We should stop paying people to stay out of the military.

It is easy to understand how eager the system was to recruit Hasan and how hard it as to give up on him. My biggest surprise is that his record does not include more classes, junkets and ego stroking rewards for showing up. Still I would haul the person who signed his last promotion before a green table and ask some awkward questions.

——-
Scanning up and considering the last few threads I can ask if we call the bozo an Idiot or a Moby Troll on this one?

Habu and Subotai Barahdur not you, while I might disagree with you on this I can tell the difference. Not giving the name while it is obvious just to avoid committing positive feedback for the intruder.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:25 pm 147. bob from Idaho:

almost all non-Mormons having an extremely negative view of them

This is odd. I’ve lived around them all my life, and have an extremely positive view of them.

I always feel a little safer, if I have a Mormon neighbor.

Mountain Meadows was an incident around the time of the Utah war, which wasn’t much of a war, though Buchanan sent some troops out this way. The Mormons had fled from the murderous monogamists back east, wanted to be left alone.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:26 pm 148. Josh:

It is easy to understand how eager the system was to recruit Hasan and how hard it as to give up on him.

Yes, but, and not the least of the but’s is the damage that someone in his position can do if bad – I mean just a bad shrink, if not a fanatic non-jihadi Islamic shrink, even if he never goes full SJS.

I know you’re just sayin’, and so am I.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:30 pm 149. blert:

RWE @126

You’re referring to the Invasion of Niihau:

http://keith.martin.home.att.net/vniihau.html

Had this truth not been censored blood would have flowed. The internment really did protect the Japanese-Americans from retribution.

BTW, many Chinese suffered –American was murdered by a confused and laid-off worker in the rust belt!

The Japanese-Americans within Hawaii were NOT interned. Instead they worked at the Pearl Harbor shipyard.

The flip side is that the entire territory was effectively run by the Army. As a practical matter, the Army turned the courts into automatic conviction machines. The typical, average trial ran no more than 90 seconds! The prosecutor never lost a case, of course.

Subsequently the Supreme Court intervened to shut down the farce. ( circa 1943 )

////

Another factor in the internment policy was the illegal phone intercepts conducted by the FDR administration of essentially all international calls by Japanese-Americans towards home. This was being performed by military intelligence for the most part with cooperation from Ma Bell. The transcripts established that there were MANY resident aliens and recent citizens completely sympathetic to Tojo & Co — so much so that here and there offers to aid and abet Japan by sabotaging America were uncovered.

Ranting about politics didn’t have to await the blogs.

After Pearl Harbor the international lines were shut down making further eavesdropping impossible. Since the intel was collected strictly for military purposes no attempt was ever made to pursue the ranting parties. Instead the President, at the urging of the California Governor, interned all the western Japanese Americans.

At the time no one denounced these people more than the OTHER Japanese Americans who lived east of the West Coast! Their harsh comments can still be found in the letters to the editor from just about every newspaper of the period.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:46 pm 150. SpeakEasy:

Pascal, Edicts of that type usually start as General Orders for all DoD installations with enough room for base commanders to modify based on circumstances. IOW, if there is a grave enough threat he could arm his troops as he saw fit. During the Gulf War I was stationed at Twentynine Palms (as inappropriate a moniker as ever was) and part of a react team. If the alarm was sounded we met at the armory to draw weapons and ammo and be assigned a defensive position. Any base commander (or prior) could give you more specific info.

Maj Hasan did not need to be “farmed out on TDY” since he is an officer and serves at the pleasure of the president, meaning he can be fired. Serving in the military is not like working at Best Buy. Had anyone been paying attention, and that is the real problem IMHO, he could have been sent home, permissive TAD, to await the results of an investigation.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: he would most likely have had at least a SECRET security clearance so, where the hell was CID? We are at war in the middle east and someone with middle eastern heritage is making statements supportive of the enemy (potentially) and no one thought to start an investigation? That’s odd.

Look for heads to roll, some of them sporting scrambled eggs.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:49 pm 151. marymcl:

@139 Habu

With respect, sir, snap out of it. Come down off your high horse for a moment and read what I actually wrote. If I’ve earned your revulsion, so be it. I can live with that a lot easier than the prospect of blood in our streets because some holier-than-thou patriots decide that the children of women who wear headscarves don’t deserve to live.

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:50 pm 152. Josh:

SpeakEasy, didn’t there already have to be an investigation? Or three?

Nov 7, 2009 - 1:52 pm 153. SpeakEasy:

Habu, If you have not already, I recommend a book titled The Pirate Coast, by Zachs I believe. The most interesting part to me was how our government sent the military on a mission while they worked behind their backs to sabotage it by bargaining with the man sitting the throne. Sounded familiar actually.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:01 pm 154. RWE:

Blert #149:

And the people who foiled the “Invasion of Niihau” were not white people but native Hawaiians.

One surprising thing was one who opposed the internment of the Japanese Americans on the basis that it violated their rights. The last person you would expect:

J. Edgar Hoover.

Now, I suspect that while Hoover may have disliked seeing innocent people forced out of their homes, he also would have been more than delighted to roll up those Japanese intelligence networks using his FBI.

As for the monitoring of communications, in the late 1920’s the Secretary of State was horrified to find that we were intercepting and decoding foreign diplomatic messages, saying “Gentleman do not read other gentlemen’s mail.” The same man was Secretary of War on 7 Dec 1941, at which time I guess his views on reading mail had changed.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:03 pm 155. SpeakEasy:

Josh, you worded that strangely. There had to be? I don’t know- Should there have been? Oh my God, YES.
Either way, when it comes to security, personnel or classified material, you DO NOT leave someone under investigation in a position to compromise (possibly further) either. I have had Marines taken out of our shop and therefore away from classified material, for any number of reasons, some as “trivial” as being financially irresponsible (anything that can be used as blackmail will do) until an investigation had been conducted and evaluated on numerous levels.

Two things will get a commander relieved quickly: Compromised classified material on your watch and deaths due to negligence. Like I said, watch the heads roll, soon.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:11 pm 156. Das:

In the last thread Wretchard talked about the PC-enabled process that shoves both jihad and leftist fanatics along an extremist path until they are pushed (or push themselves) over a cliff – vide Ft Hood, Seattle, LA murders or any of the FBI-quashed attacks of the past 1/2 year. Since we can’t call out or name the pathologies in any official way, we end up, after the fact, wondering what happened. “He was such a nice guy…” etc..

For the left to name the problem (jihad or leftist extremism) is to conjure it out of thin air. A couple Seattle examples. 1) A few years back Lakeside High School (Bill Gates’ high school) invited Dinesh D’Souza to speak. Then a couple black parents complained that since Dinesh was known for being against affirmative action he would be considered offensive by certain students and staff. Viola. Dinesh is uninvited.
2) on Halloween night two Seattle police were shot at while sitting in a squad car. One policeman died instantly. Yesterday the city held a memorial for the slain officer in a large arena (Key Arena); even before the memorial was finished, the cops were chasing down the main suspect. He was a tall, good-looking young black man, 40ish. The cops approached him for questioning and he ran. He also fired a gun at them. The cops engaged and shot him. He is now in critical condition in hospital. Turns out suspect was an intermittent student of criminal justice. In addition, he fits every slot of the fatherless angry young black man and in this case leftist (he was known for his outspoken hatred of Bush and the US criminal justice system, e.g. rigged against the black man, etc); it really looks like he was nudged and encouraged through his spotty academic career PC prone teachers who glowed upon his various project e.g. designing a jury system that would automatically aquit black men whether guilty or no. You can see his professors just praising him to the skies and showering him with scholarship after scholarship…

Well this is all pretty raw and unclear just now but I believe Wretchards template of PC justice – in which the good guys (in this case the cop) get it in the neck at the expense of promoting psychotic haters within our institutions is under full power just now.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:15 pm 157. JMH:

Now, I suspect that while Hoover may have disliked seeing innocent people forced out of their homes, he also would have been more than delighted to roll up those Japanese intelligence networks using his FBI.

Perhaps his problem with internment was that his FBI wasn’t running it? (OSS got brought up a in a recent thread, J. Edgar was pretty seriously devoted to turf battles with the OSS and the rest of the Military).

“Gentleman do not read other gentlemen’s mail.” The same man was Secretary of War on 7 Dec 1941, at which time I guess his views on reading mail had changed.

Perhaps the rise of Hitler, Stalin, Tojo and Moussolini had convinced he he wasn’t dealing with “gentlemen” after all. Which, I think, is the basis of our problem today. We’re trying to abide by the rules of civliized behavior while dealing with a decidedly uncivlized threat.

My own view is that a) civilization can remain civilized while fending off small barbarian threats, but large threats require dropping the Marquis of Queensbury rules, and b) there are varying degrees of civilized behavior anyway, and a little bending now might avoid having to drop the facade completely down the road.

Since the Japanese Internment came up, I think it’s instructive in another sense. Regardless of whether it was a gross injustice and betrayal of American principles, or a necessary wartime exigency, it was a practice we were able to lay aside quite easily aftet the war was over. As a society, we seem to be pretty good at becoming Bruce Banner once again after a “Hulk Smash Things” episode.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:29 pm 158. Lifeofthemind:

JMH,
we seem to be pretty good at becoming Bruce Banner once again after a “Hulk Smash Things” episode

The time between “I am here to kill you better than any one else can” to “Gosh that girl is cute, sorry about her brother, here is a present for her Mom” is considerably under a year. Your mileage may vary.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:40 pm 159. blert:

My earlier link was to a PC’d revisionist history. A better synopsis:

“This is a fascinating tale, almost completely forgotten now, a side story to the larger dramas of the attack on Pearl Harbor. At the time, it was hugely important in the decision to intern some 100,000 Japanese-Americans living in Hawaii and the West Coast. Simply put, there was a very real fear that in the event of a Japanese invasion of these two areas (which seemed very real after the attack on Pearl Harbor) the local Japanese-Americans would aid the enemy as had happened on Niihau.

Time passes, and political correctness, revisionist history, and the very isolation of the island of Niiahu (which cannot be visited except by permission of the locals or from the Robinson landowners) have all caused this story to disappear into the land of forgotten memories. Nowadays, the PC thinking is that the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII was a misguided result of paranoia and racism on the part of the American government, and that the US had nothing to fear.

I have read a lot of WWII history and had never come across this story before. About two weeks ago, while vacationing in Hawaii, I found this book in the gift shop of the Visitor’s Center of the Arizona Memorial. I was waiting for my scheduled ferry ride out to the USS Arizona Memorial, and speed-read/browsed through this book. I have since filled in some of the details that I missed on my cursory reading of this book with some Internet searches.

The book is written with a chatty, semi-novelized style, typical of so much of current non-fiction history today. I still have a hard time with this style of writing, especially when the author starts to put words and thoughts into the heads of characters in the story that die later on in the story, well before they could have told anybody to record this information for posterity.

Such was how Shigenori Nishikaichi was introduced in this book, wondering what to do as his A6M2 Zero fighter slowly leaked out its last bit of gas. While participating in the attack on Pearl Harbor, the plane’s gas tanks were hit by gunfire. Nishikaichi ended up crash-landing in a rough field on Niihau.

A group of native Niihauans, although unaware of the attack on Pearl Harbor (there was no radio on the island), were suspicious enough of his arrival in a shot-up combat aircraft from Japan to take him prisoner, after first confiscating his gun and his military papers.

The two Japanese men on the island were then brought in by the Niihauns to translate for them. It was the Niihauns’ intent to hold the pilot and deliver him to the owner of Niihau, Aylmar Robinson, when he stopped by on his weekly visit to the island

In secret conversation with the two Japanese, the pilot turned them against the natives. The older Japanese, who was born in Japan and was married to a Niihaun woman, later became terribly conflicted and fled into the hills for the duration of the incident.

The other Japanese, Yoshio Harada, who had been born in the Hawaiian islands and was married to a Japanese woman, gave full support to the pilot’s schemes. He found the pilot’s gun, as well as another gun (the only other one on the island), and used these to free the pilot. The two then went on a rampage, threatening and terrorizing the native Niihauns. They were trying to recover the pilot’s confiscated papers. They also went back to the Zero fighter plane and set it on fire to keep it out of the hands of the US (the US military would not again have an opportunity to get hold of an intact Zero to study until July 1942)

As this was going on, a group of native Niihauns escaped and began the arduous journey by rowboat to the island of Kauai in order to get help. Aylmar Robinson had not been able to come to the island because travel between the islands had been restricted after the attack on Pearl Harbor. A detachment of US troops landed on Niihau about two days later.

By then the whole incident was over, mainly because of the courage of one of the Niihauns, Ben Kanahele, He got fed up with the threats from the pilot and Harada, and so he (and his wife) attacked them. In the struggle, Nishikaichi shot Kanahele three times, before Kanahele smashed him into a stone wall and killed him. At that point, Harada committed suicide with the other gun. Kanahele survived to tell many versions of his tale to many people, and was later awarded the purple heart and Presidential Medal of Merit.

Harada’s wife was jailed for much of the rest of the war. Had Yoshio Harada lived, he almost certainly would have been convicted of treason and executed. After all, he had aided in the escape of an enemy combatant, helped destroy a valuable piece of military intelligence (the Zero fighter plane), and participated in the terrorization of the native Niihauns.

At the time, the Niihau incident was a big story locally, and was also well known to the military and the rest of the government. A song was written about it, and the incident was recorded into many of the early stories and books written about the attack on Pearl Harbor. The incident confirmed the worst fears of the US government and military. An American citizen of Japanese descent, with a previously spotless record, when confronted by an enemy Japanese, chose to abet and give aide and comfort to the enemy that looked just like him.

All in all, it is good to read this book, and to remember the facts as they actually were in the dark days at the beginning of WWII for America. “

From an anonymous Amazon book reviewer.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:52 pm 160. Lifeofthemind:

We had class and we now have trash. Compare this to Mr Shout Out

Former President George W. Bush and his wife Laura secretly visited Fort Hood last night and spent “considerable time” consoling those who were wounded in Thursday’s shooting spree, Fox News has learned.

The Bushes entered and departed the sprawling military facility in secret, having told the base commander they did not want press coverage of their visit, a source told Fox News.

The couple was described as “deeply concerned” about military families on Fort Hood after Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan allegedly opened fire on soldiers and civilians, killing 13 and wounding 38.

The Bushes, who have a 1,600-acre property known as Prairie Chapel Ranch less than 30 miles from Fort Hood in central Texas, spent between one and two hours visiting the wounded and their families.

BTW, everyone know that the “Medal of Honor” winner that was more important to Obama than the soldiers at Fort Hood, wasn’t? Not only did the clueless wonder misname it as the Congressional Medal but in fact the object of the Shout Out was not even a MoH recipient.

Nov 7, 2009 - 2:55 pm 161. Joe Hill:

A couple more pots and I am done with this subject

1) The most disgusting thing about this loser Hasan is that he gunned down people who would have literally marched through hell to save his worthless ass.

2) Because the military is diverse for all he knew he was gunning down co-religionists in the crowd the very thing he was opposed to doing.

3) Poliical Correctness does make it impossible to criticize the screwed up aspects of Islam and the just plain wacko interpretations of the Koran which prevents a better, less intolerant Islam from emerging.

4) In the long run we will not be able to solve our Islamic problem if the only tools we have and use are guns and internment camps, deportations, prisons, courts and gallows. Bad ideas can only be destroyed by better ideas and better ideas can only emerge in a world and environment where criticism can flourish without it being labeled as hate speech or racism. It is one thing to ban fighting word but another to ban anything that somebody might find hurtful or offensive.

5) Following up on 4 it is political correctness that is the immediate threat more than the Salafists and Wahabis themselves, because that political correctness flows from the rot at the heart of our own culture. It is a manifestation of the self-loathing some segments of wester culture feel. Great societies seldom fall from external attacks. It is the internal intellectual rot that takes them down.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:03 pm 162. Irish Cicero:

Wretchard:

Your post inspired this:

http://washingtonrebel.typepad.com/washington_rebel/2009/11/the-deadly-curse-of-pc.html

Discussing the recent loss of Seattle PD Officer Timothy Brenton via politically correct college curricula.

Spooky world.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:11 pm 163. Habu:

151. marymcl

….and Franklin answered, A Republic if you can keep it. Or

Henry V
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.”

If you categorize a review of just a tiny portion of the savagery islam has visited on the world since the big Moham- man put out the word as acceptable then you are in way over your head. Perhaps you enjoyed reading of Uday and his brother shredding people alive or the poison gas attacks on the Kurds at Halaba in 1988 where innocent children were gassed.. I have no high horse from which to dismount. The truth and facing it takes courage and sacrifice. islam is an evil bastard philosophy and I brook no defense of it by any man or woman. My statements stand as only a small testimony to islams need to be blotted out. The children of 1988 are adults today and islam, under pain of their death, demands they kill me and our children. Between the two choices I much prefer having them die.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:12 pm 164. Cowboy:

One of the most disgusting things about the analysis of what happened in Ft. Hood is what they are doing to Kileen, Texas and the people who live and work in and around Ft. Hood. I’ve seen a stream of stories about how horrible Kileen and Ft. Hood are and how beset with depression, with suicide and all this gloom and dsyfunction.

This is an affront to the good people of Kileen and Ft. Hood. I have known many decent, salt of the earth folks from those environs whom I count myself lucky and better off to have encountered. There are men down there in Ft. Hood whose shoes I’m not fit to wear, they are far better men than I and than most.

The media’s game is obvious. What they are doing is laying the groundwork for a potential narrative. If there is any way to pin this thing on some perceived psychological dsyfunction in the American military and its men, women, family, and everybody who lives among them, then they are going to pin that tail on the donkey. If any opportunity comes along to highlight some dysfunction and attribute it to our brave fighting men and women as some kind of horrible “cost too high”, then they will take it. If they can politicize any problem in military life to further their narratives, no matter what the truth is or whom it may slight or what negative societal costs it may bear, they will politicize it.

Again, it, in a word, is disgusting.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:13 pm 165. Habu:

151. marymcl

….and Franklin answered, A Republic if you can keep it.
Or
HenryV
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

If you categorize a very short review of just a tiny portion of the savagery islam has visited on the world since the big Moham- man put out the word as acceptable then you are in way over your head. Perhaps you enjoyed reading of Uday and his brother shredding people alive or the poison gas attacks on the Kurds at Halaba in 1988 where innocent children were gassed.. I have no high horse from which to dismount. The truth and facing it takes courage and sacrifice. Islam is an evil bastard philosophy and I brook no defense of it by any man or woman. My statements stand as only a small testimony to islams need to be blotted out. The children of 1988 are adults today and islam, under pain of death demands they kill me and our children. Between the two choices I much prefer having them die.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:16 pm 166. twobyfour:

marymcl, we are on a different points of a path that when projected as it is now into the future would, inevitable, lead to scenarios that some described here. Habu extrapolates a bit further than you, and possibly convinced of the inevitability, for him that point in time is much closer and more real. We move at different mental speeds toward that point.

For me, the question is whether we can, given the current set of conditions, prevent that point in time from transpiring, not by kicking the can further along the path, but by eliminating the whole problem altogether. To push a breaker and create a set of initial parameters where that future is not possible.
I simply want to save (without any sort of Jesus complex) these countless beings, presently called muslims, from the fate that awaits them, and save us from the burden of dealing with our guilt if the inevitable is to come to pass.

We have to kill Islam to save muslims. The sooner we do it, the better.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:20 pm 167. Karen Yvonne:

marymcl @125: I probably shouldn’t even be replying because I don’t have time – and I haven’t even read the last 40 or so comments (so forgive me for any redundancies) – but you mentioned a troubling aspect of the whole situation that I had also been thinking of, viz., that typical reaction of angry defensiveness of even the “moderate” Muslims. Bogie wheel’s hope that a sliver of an escape clause can be found is interesting but what about Sharia law? Isn’t Sharia law such an integral part of Islam that it would preclude any reconciliation with the West? I’m afraid Joe Hill @45 has it right – “Islam poses a metaphysical threat to Western secular democracy” – and there is just no way of getting around this fact. But our society is currently nowhere near the point of being able to grant this truth. We are still trying mightily to pound the square peg into the round hole, as demonstrated in the link above to the clip of the Larry King show with Shoshanna and Dr. Phil indignantly and furiously engaged in butting their heads against the brick wall.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:24 pm 168. blert:

That muslims are the biggest victims of islam should be patent.

Shintoism was destroyed by psychological blows: military defeat, occupation of Japan and the submission of the Emperor.

Each one of these events destroyed the pillars of Shintoism.

The parallels between Shintoism and islamism are manyfold:

Suicide troops with a religious mandate to the highest heaven,

Religious intolerance and xenophobia,

A supremacist vision ultimately global in scope,

Location specific totems and rite oriented sacred ground,

Etc.

/////

I contend that the center of gravity of islam is their sacred ground and totems. Performing counter-koranic acts upon such terrain must cause mental fuses to blow throughout the ummah.

Any other gambit, as demonstrated by history, is futile. Even fantastical battlefield losses will not deter islamists. Their doctrine may reduce them to ‘droids but it certainly bucks up their zeal.

In WWII we at least had the good sense to place our bets on the USAAF and target Axis production centers and links.

Here we stand eight years into this conflict — thirty if you trace from Tehran — and we have yet to figure out the strategic center of gravity and what constitutes the islamist production line.

We still don’t know the enemy, nor ourselves. That’s bad karma.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:47 pm 169. twobyfour:

Errata: …we are on different points of a path that when projected as it is now into the future would, inevitably…

When I said “we”, I did not mean any government or administration entity. Obviously, the current set of parameters and circumstances is such that simply precludes this type of action coming from these entities.

There is probably 4-5 years window, but 3 year and a bit would be an optimal timeframe, I have a specific date on mind.

Question… how one raises about $100 million?

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:50 pm 170. Jay:

Why is Fort HOod and other military bases “gun free zones”? When did this insanity start? If there is a vet or two from the Korean War or the Vietnam disaster please inform me if this insanity is old.

Nov 7, 2009 - 3:55 pm 171. Josh:

SpeakEasy, I’m just suggesting that there “must have been” standard and additional event-driven investigations already done – and sat on. Of course, those investigations may now be lost so they can claim oversight rather than misjudgement.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:00 pm 172. RWE:

Blert #159:

The story of what happened on Niihua is told in the definitive work on the Pearl Harbor attack, At Dawn We Slept by Gordan W. Prauge.

One of the more interesting details is that Kanahele and his wife were able to overpower the Japanese because they stole the ammo for the machine guns that had been removed from the Zero.

Michelle Malkin pointed out the significance of the incident in her book “In Defense of Internment.”

I recall telling Jonah Goldberg of National Review of the incident soon after 9/11/01. He had not heard of it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:02 pm 173. RWE:

Jay #170:

It has been standard practice for decades in the USAF to require all on-base residents to turn their personal guns over to the Security Police for storage. I assume the US Army does the same thing.

In reference to the comments by Subtoi, I recall that when I was commanding the transport of very high value and critical assets across the base with Security Police escort I was surprised to be informed that they would not be armed but could order an armed response team by radio in short order. I chose not to make that an issue, but it brought to mind that Barney Fife at least at a gun in his holster and one bullet in his shirt pocket.

During one late night transport operation on Cape Canaveral some years ago a special ops unit conducting an exercise on one part of the base thought it would be fun to break out of their assigend area and capture a spacecraft being transported for launch. Maybe it is good that the SP’s don’t carry guns because if it had been my spacecraft I would have had the special ops guys all shot.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:13 pm 174. Doug:

109. bogie wheel,
Dennis Miller is raving about laast week’s Turner Classic special on Mercer.
Wife grew up next door and got to listen to him playing piano!

—
121. Kirk Parker,
I just have little faith that “a” will ever happen in our PC Universe, which supports all causes damaging to the union.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:33 pm 175. Back To School – a Busy, Engaging and Eventful Year Ahead … « Grumpy Ant:

[...] Belmont Club » Physician heal thyself [...]

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:52 pm 176. Doug:

wrt the mosques, Steve Emerson’s 1993 video provides enough documentation of their activities to have them outlawed.

—
Nahncee,
From what I have gathered, one word describes the lady well:
Brave.

Nov 7, 2009 - 4:57 pm 177. Das:

#1 Can anyone speak to the military justice side of the Ft Hood massacre? Wouldn’t the murderer be condemned and shot before firing squad? Wouldn’t his company or batallion be effaced from the military from now on? Is this old fashioned military justice?

#2 The left is fighting the last war as armies are wont to do. They believe thy are fighting a society of conservatives circa 1968 where real divisions of hard-hats just might rise up and make their presence felt. They don’t realize they are fighting an army of very liberalized conservatives in 2009. That is why they freak out if you mention a perp is Muslim. “Ooo don’t say Muslim!” or that horde of right wing nuts will rise up and come at us with flaming crosses and burn down neighborhoods and racism will run rampant in the streets. Think of what a good discussion Larry King could have had in that video clip. I mean the world is aflame with Muslims going off in great and small degrees. We have engaged an entire army for God’s sake to deal with them. Yet, hush hush, none of that happens here, ain’t no flies on Jesus in our good old liberal Obama America, no, no…

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:23 pm 178. bogie wheel:

Das @ 177 -

#2 The left is fighting the last war as armies are wont to do. They believe thy are fighting a society of conservatives circa 1968 where real divisions of hard-hats just might rise up and make their presence felt.

Oh, I don’t know about this. WRT to terrorism, they don’t see it as a war at all. WRT to the culture war and complete takeover of the national political apparatus, I think they thought they had won the whole enchilada, the salsa, the chips, the tequila, the worm, the napkins and plates and table and entire damn restaurant, when The Won was elected.

The zombie army of conservatives cornfuzes them … weren’t we supposed to be dead? And who are those “teabaggers”?

The “hush hush, mustn’t use the M word” meme is not because they are seriously afraid that mosques will go up in flames. They know this won’t happen as a result of straightforward discussion & debate. In reality, they are afraid that merely by calling things as they are, they will become targets of the jihadis. It’s appeasement, pure and simple.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:42 pm 179. RETIRED RETARD(MD):

Bogie Wheel #88

Ordinarily a “lurker” I am moved to comment about your father. Having read “the autobiography of a schizphrenic girl” while in medical school I understand. Your father’s accomplishments and the stength of effort and will required are amzing and extraordnairily lauditory. Semper Fi indeed. While I’m here extreme gratitude for the wisdom, wit, offten profound thought, information, erudition of so many at BC. Esp. thanks to Mr. Fernandez for pulling you all together and for his remarkable insight.
John Singleton

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:49 pm 180. Bob Murphy:

85. Marty:
“So, what do we do about all the Saudi/Gulf money that funds radical mosques and university “Islamic Studies” programs that provide cover?”

Energy independence for the United States would be a good start, Marty.

Nov 7, 2009 - 5:59 pm 181. Tcobb:

If there is a future the historians there may look back upon this time as the age of insanity.

If, as Wretchard posits (and I do agree with him on this point) Islam is an ideology masquerading as a religion, why should it be tolerated? We have no problems refusing to allow people of certain political persuasions (or at least, we didn’t used to) such as avowed communists or Nazis from immigrating here, or booting them out if they came in pretending that they were otherwise.

And yes, I suspect that most communists and Nazis were also “regular guys” who would never indulge in anti-social behavior. The question is, to what extent do they condone or excuse members of their political sect who do commit such acts, and how far does that go? Toleration of evil is the medium in which evil thrives.

And what happens when their numbers increase as a percentage of the population? What does that do to the equation? A lot of those “regular guys” might just cease fitting into that category when there is no downside to it but a lot of potential benefits for going over to the dark side.

I fear that this is the dynamic we are seeing now. History doesn’t repeat itself but it does tend to make a lot of movies with the same basic formula.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:05 pm 182. Rock:

@170. Jay:

During my 22 years on active duty, nobody was allowed to carry a privately owned firearm and the ammo for it on a military installation on a routine or daily basis. Period.

If you lived in the barracks, you could own one but it had to be locked in the unit arms room and registered with the military police. You could sign it out for personal use for hunting or target practice or routine cleaning. Generally access to your own private weapon also required prior approval of the unit commander or XO. Yes there are indoor and outdoor firing ranges for training and target practice with your privately owned weapon. If you lived off post or in government housing you could keep a privately owned weapon and ammo in your quarters. This included shotguns and handguns and had to be registered with the MPs also. I do not recall at time that concealed weapons permits were ever issued or otherwise allowed.

The unit arms rooms is where government weapons, those issued to you as an individual soldier for your personal defense in combat are secured and used only when you had duties that required their use. Guard duty, field-training activity, weapon qualification, and cleaning were the most common reasons. A basic issue of ammo was also kept in the arms room but not issued except in extreme circumstances. Individual soldiers had weapons cards they presented to the arms room attendant to withdraw their weapons and ammo if needed.

Usually the only persons on a military installation who are fully armed at any given time are MPs, guards, rapid response or, SWAT teams, prison guards, and those working in and around sensitive areas. Sometimes an Officer of the Day or CQ could be fully armed.

Who may be fully armed depends on several factors. In Germany during the 70s at the height of The Baader-Meinhof Gang activities, selected NCOs and Officers in our unit were armed most of the time. Hell, even bolt cutters were kept under lock and key. They were as valuable as gold.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:08 pm 183. Tony:

Cowboy @ 164 – nice post, sir.

WRT Sgt. Munley – remember the scene in “The Right Stuff” where Chuck Yeager is walking out of a smoking hole, dragging his parachute?

“Is that a man? Is that a MAN!”

God bless her and all heroes like her who ride to the sound of the guns and do their duty. God bless Sgt. Munley.

No greater love.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:09 pm 184. Lifeofthemind:

Excellent article at The New Ledger, How the Fort Hood Shooter Will be Judged.
The author expects the defense counsel to properly use the remarks Obama will make at the funerals as grounds for an argument to set aside the death penalty. It is worth reading.

My comments follow;
What would be appropriate for a POTUS to say without interfering with the trial?
1. He can praise the fallen, their honor and sacrifice and the ideals they died for.
2. He can praise the Constitution, the American system of law and justice that they swore to defend.
3. He can praise the healing nature and essential goodness of our culture as a source of hope for all.
4. He can quote sources of our culture, the Old and New Testaments and Pericles Funeral Oration.
5. He can cite other tough moments when our sense of justice was tested but triumphed.
6. He can assure all that Justice will be done.

Rock,
Well said.

Das,
Have you seen to many Foreign Legion movies?
Federal Executions are done by lethal injection and monitored to ensure they are not cruel or unusual.

Bob Murphy,
Drill here drill now, build nukes, do it all.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:09 pm 185. Wadeusaf:

Physician heal thyself…,

Does that imply the major should have had the perspective to see his own character flaws? Or that the folks at Walter Reed should have taken steps to either corral his more treasonable beliefs and have him replace them with more reasonable ones? Or just take him off of all active duty for the duration. In a time of war there is no room for coddling insubordination nor is there any justification for not tossing his behind in jail, part of the terms of use for officers even medical officers.

To the US Army, should this read, fix the bureaucratic nonsense, or we will replace you with people who will?
Good luck with that one, but a start would be recognizing that the Orders of the CinC are not up to debate, unless of course the order is unlawful.

To Islam that is not Islamists, would that heal thyself mean to figure it out or our wrath will stretch to new bounds just as our anger is learning to encompass new degrees. I think we have given them the impetus and the tools in Iraq, and can again in Afghanistan.

Congress, and Senate, you guys are part of a branch of government given specific tasks and duties to perform. Do not let the president replace you with Czarists and usurp your authority. We elected you to fund, oversee and review as well as legislate as a function of government. If you will not perform the job you were elected to do, and that includes oversight of the stuff all the Czars are doing in your absence, then on your conscience will be lain the blame for what follows.

I think there are a number of citizens who have some strong medicine they are willing to prescribe.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:22 pm 186. Lifeofthemind:

Listening to the House floor debate on Health Care on Fox’s livestream. This is the real deal.
We should all be following this closely.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:33 pm 187. Pascal:

LOTM: Do you have a reason for viewing Fox instead of CSPAN?

I rarely watch regular TV, but I am watching this on CSPAN 1.

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:46 pm 188. che4z-1@yahoo.co.uk:

c-span 1 live here:

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx

Nov 7, 2009 - 6:50 pm 189. toad:

That’s gonna leave a mark:

“Gun Control on Military Bases [Michael Ledeen]
Lots of folks have wondered why there weren’t more soldiers with guns at Ft. Hood, and I’m one of them. Our younger Marine is home for the weekend from The Basic School at Quantico, and Barbara and I asked him if there were Marines with guns on the base. There are. Lots of them. And they move around all the time, checking places where Marines congregate, from classrooms to outdoor obstacle courses and parade fields and barracks. Apparently it occurred to the base commander some time ago that it was a bad idea to leave his men and women unprotected.”

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:21 pm 190. Lifeofthemind:

Pascal,
No great ideological meaning here. I am not watching it at all, just listening on web feed.
It is often better to listen to a debate than to watch it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:30 pm 191. Bob Smith:

“Well your 100X guestimate could approach infinity, no? Besides, that’s only the qualitative. If just 1% are infected with SJS, there’s between 25,000 and 60,000 jihadis ready to explode right here in River City. Of course, if the percentage of Muslims ready to explode is actually 10%, then we have a really big problem, no?”

“Explode” can have several definitions. I think the first “explosion” we’ll see isn’t an outright bombing, but a declaration (implicit or explicit) that somewhere in the US is now inviolable Muslim territory. Ethnic cleansing is already effectively going on in portions of Dearborn, Philadelphia, and Minneapolis. I think it a matter of only a few years before those areas become no-go zones, in the current European sense, for infidels. That will prove they are invaders, not immigrants, but like the Europeans we will do nothing about it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:41 pm 192. Right Wing Realist:

I AM READY TO PUKE TOO !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCY1lsJg8zs

.

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:58 pm 193. Doug:

191. Bob Smith,
Wonderful scene.
All in our lifetime.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:04 pm 194. Lifeofthemind:

Stupak passed, it is a fig leaf on abortion so the Democrats can pass government control of Health Care. Any protection it offers will vanish later. Now they get to shut down the Republican alternative. Some things are better listened to than watched. I have been following the Health Care debate on streaming audio. This is a Saturday Night Special. They want to Rahm this bill through while America isn’t watching. The Health Care Bill, dishonestly advanced, is the US version of the European Union super government treaty & Regulators dream constitution.

Nov 7, 2009 - 8:24 pm 195. Right Wing Realist:

RE# 194 — We are hosed! Whether it’s Muslim fanatics killing our unarmed servicemen, or Congressional Jihadis killing clueless Americans…All of the news, all of the time, is all despairing!

The light is going out, and no vote can turn it around. We are lost!

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:00 pm 196. twobyfour:

Damn, you’re screwed. Condolations from Canuckistan.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:15 pm 197. twobyfour:

Right Wing Realist/195

There is a remedy. Make sure that the people that voted for the bill are voted out next year. It can be revoked and an alternative bill can replace it.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:21 pm 198. The Wobbly Guy:

Dammit, dammit, dammit. The healthcare bill passed. I’ll be keeping my notes ready – whatever happens next needs to be recorded as a future warning of the dangers of crazy thinking.

In the meantime, I’ll more than welcome you guys to Southeast Asia for your healthcare needs.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:42 pm 199. presbypoet:

To inject a note of optimism, this is not the end. The Senate still must weigh in, and with The senator from Conn saying he will not vote to close, it is not over. It may take a week just to have the bill read. It might even give them enough time to put it up on the Internet. Even if something passes, it is likely to be such a mess that control of the house may pass.

It also is unlikely that the much more dangerous carbon tax idiocy now has any chance of passing. Since health care is already a stupid mess, and it doesn’t truly take effect for several years, it may help win back the congress , without major damage to the economy.

Not to downgrade the possible hit, we have a very expensive camel with it’s nose poking a long way into the tent.

This must take a back seat to the first great danger. What happens when the first A-bomb goes off in an American city? Or five or six? We can see that O and his media are trying to pretend everything is “fine”. This must remain our first priority. How to tell the truth. How to not be discouraged.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:19 pm 200. twobyfour:

Right, presbypoet…
Possible way out:
Contact your senators to vote against the Senate version of the bill. If the Senate votes no, the House vote doesn’t matter — it needs to pass in each house of Congress, then a reconciliation bill has to pass both houses. Only then will it go to the president for his signature.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:38 pm 201. RagnarD:

The Wobbly Guy @ 198:

The healthcare bill passed.

What would pResident Pantywaist do differently if he were overtly trying to destroy the Republic?

“The terrible ‘if’s’ accumulate.”

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:41 pm 202. Doug:

Well, we can take up painting.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:44 pm 203. twobyfour:

As for nukes exploding over US city or several… At the moment, ballistic missile attack is not likely (NKors may be able to reach SanFran, though). Suitcase nuke is a different matter, but the delivery is somewhat challenging and those that originate from late 80’s are duds already. Radiological bomb is more likely.

BTW, Russkie are considering sanctions against Iran. Medvedev said that if Iran does not accept the conditions of western countries, they’ll be forced to sign on US sponsored sanctions bill.

Nov 7, 2009 - 10:54 pm 204. twobyfour:

Da Class:

Last night (Friday) former President George W. Bush and his wife Laura made a secret visit to the devastated military families at Fort Hood.

The Bushes instructed the commander of the mourning military base that they wanted no publicity. With their Secret Service detail, Bush and his wife made the 30 mile trip unannounced from their ranch near Crawford, Texas Friday evening.

Fox News broke news of the visit saturday afternoon. Other sources said the former first couple spent about two hours meeting with family and soldiers, talking quietly and at times hugging them as they did in private at other times of crisis such as post-9/11.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:10 pm 205. twobyfour:

It may have been the first, small clue that an apparently ordinary week at the world’s largest army base was about to become something horrifically different, when neighbours saw Major Nidal Hasan escorting a visitor into his flat.

Other residents at the Casa del Norte apartment complex were surprised to see the mild-mannered army officer accompanied by another man in Islamic dress.

Alice Thompson, 53, who manages the two storey block of simple dwellings with her husband John, told The Sunday Telegraph: “It was very unusual because he had never had anyone round before. His visitor had long black hair and a moustache and a dark complexion. He stayed about five minutes and then left. We’d never seen him before.”

Hasan had paid six months money upfront for the flat after being transferred to Fort Hood in July, and insisted to the Thompsons that nobody could enter his apartment, even to do repairs, when he was out.

What his neighbours could not know is that within less than 48 hours, Hasan was to shatter the peace and security of the Fort Hood base by slaughtering 13 people – all but one of them soldiers – and force America to confront some of its deepest fears.

Now investigators are trying frantically to identify Hasan’s visitor, as they seek to unravel the hours that led up to his deadly attack.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:16 pm 206. twobyfour:

Hasan, the sole suspect in the massacre of 13 fellow US soldiers in Texas, attended the controversial Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Great Falls, Virginia, in 2001 at the same time as two of the September 11 terrorists, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt. His mother’s funeral was held there in May that year.

The preacher at the time was Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born Yemeni scholar who was banned from addressing a meeting in London by video link in August because he is accused of supporting attacks on British troops and backing terrorist organisations.

Hasan’s eyes “lit up” when he mentioned his deep respect for al-Awlaki’s teachings, according to a fellow Muslim officer at the Fort Hood base in Texas, the scene of Thursday’s horrific shooting spree.

As investigators look at Hasan’s motives and mindset, his attendance at the mosque could be an important piece of the jigsaw. Al-Awlaki moved to Dar al-Hijrah as imam in January, 2001, from the west coast, and three months later the September 11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hamzi and Hani Hanjour began attending his services. A third hijacker attended his services in California.

Hasan was praying at Dar al-Hijrah at about the same time, and the FBI will now want to investigate whether he met the two terrorists.

Charles Allen, a former under-secretary for intelligence at the Department of Homeland Security, has described al-Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen, as an “al-Qaeda supporter, and former spiritual leader to three of the September 11 hijackers… who targets US Muslims with radical online lectures encouraging terrorist attacks from his new home in Yemen”.

Nov 7, 2009 - 11:19 pm 207. andrew:

Look for the Army to take the fall on this one. O says to ignore this guy’s religion; there are a lot of different religions represented in the Military. In other words it was his being in the military that made this happen.

Nov 8, 2009 - 12:03 am 208. rickl:

202. Doug: Excellent link.

205. twobyfour: Interesting. Do you have a link for that?

Nov 8, 2009 - 12:12 am 209. twobyfour:

Links:
#205

#206

Nov 8, 2009 - 12:24 am 210. OldSalt:

What has to happen is to separate the sheep from the goats. To increase the contrast between innocence and guilt. Make loyalty a virtue again. And the only way that’s going to happen is by example. Here’s the way I see it: before a single Muslim child is stuck in the internment camp, the professor who taught his dad to be a jihadi should go first. Or are they going to pull the bwana routine when the going gets tough? – Wretchard

The bottom line is this: “Good” Muslims must lead against “Bad” Muslims, or non-Muslims will disregard the difference.

Muslims around the world have taken the lead in killing Americans, and some eventually brought this death cult to Americas shores. The burden of proof is upon every last Muslim.

I know and am on friendly terms with Muslims. I’ve coached some of their kids. I hold no personal animosity against them. However, before I start to trust ANY Muslim, I need the “average guy” Muslims to take the lead against the “Jihadi Muslims”. There is no difference between a “good Muslim” and a “radical Muslim” when both have the same attitude towards Jews, Israel, towards America and Western Civilization in general, and in particular, towards Christians. When the lies behind their biases are institutionalized even among American Muslims, taught to their children in homes and schools, and chatted in their Mosques, I cannot trust Muslims.

I will not peacefully become part of the Islamic Diminitude.

After “hit Alpha” (9/11), America went to war against her external enemies while America’s leaders asked Americans to give domestic Muslims a pass. The war was against “terror”. It was not “Islam versus America”, even though every terrorist involved in 9/11 and in the ensuing war thought otherwise. If and probably when “hit Bravo” occurs, Americans will NOT give Muslims a “bye”. Muslims will be held responsible – front and center. It will not be pretty. It will be Manzanar all over again, and there will be no widespread sympathy among Americans for their plight.

American Muslim groups have consistently taken an aggressive posture in defending Islam, e.g. “Islam is not responsible” said Maj. Hasan’s Imam. They’ve preemptively accused Americans of intolerance of Muslims, and worse. Muslims would be better advised to focus less on defense of Islam, and more taking out the radicals and diminishing their credibility. However, I don’t think they can. You will not find 1 of 1,000 Muslims who will support a Christian’s right to proselytize and “convert” a Muslim (i.e. free speech), nor the right of a Jew to exist or prosper in Israel. Those that may repudiate Jihad in broad terms will vacillate when pressed on details.

Note: I just noticed an article that indicates that Hasan was Palestinian, got a FULL FREE RIDE to college and medical school, courtesy of the Army and taxpayer funds, and never left Walter Reed (a fairly cushy posting). This guy wasn’t in the Army because he loved or wanted to defend America; he was in the Army for the money. Geez… such piss-poor judgment by the Army.

Nov 8, 2009 - 12:47 am 211. marymcl:

@166 twobyfour

~ “We have to kill Islam to save muslims. The sooner we do it, the better. “~

I agree completely. That is what I take from wretchard’s three conjectures. The question is whether Muslims will see this in time to save themselves.

habu – like I said, call me repulsive if you want. I’m talking about the children of 2009 and you are calling for their murder. Kiss my half-breed Irish ass. I couldn’t care less what you think of me.

Nov 8, 2009 - 1:01 am 212. buddy larsen:

o/t & i apologize, but fyi: Dick Morris’s jusyt now sent this out to his email subscribers:
–

“As the suicidal Democratic congressmen proceed to rubber-stamp the Obama healthcare reform despite the drubbing their party took in the ‘09 elections, the president trotted out the endorsements of the AMA and the AARP to stimulate support. But these — and the other endorsements — his package has received are all bought and paid for.

Here are the deals:

* The American Medical Association (AMA) was facing a 21 percent cut in physicians’ reimbursements under the current law. Obama promised to kill the cut if they backed his bill. The cuts are the fruit of a law requiring annual 5-6 percent reductions in doctor reimbursements for treating Medicare patients. Bravely, each year Congress has rolled the cuts over, suspending them but not repealing them. So each year, the accumulated cuts threaten doctors. By now, they have risen to 21 percent. With this blackmail leverage, Obama compelled the AMA to support his bill…or else!

* The AARP got a financial windfall in return for its support of the healthcare bill. Over the past decade, the AARP has morphed from an advocacy group to an insurance company (through its subsidiary company). It is one of the main suppliers of Medi-gap insurance, a high-cost, privately purchased coverage that picks up where Medicare leaves off. But President Bush-43 passed the Medicare Advantage program, which offered a subsidized, lower-cost alternative to Medi-gap. Under Medicare Advantage, the elderly get all the extra coverage they need plus coordinated, well-managed care, usually by the same physician. So more than 10 million seniors went with Medicare Advantage, cutting into AARP Medi-gap revenues.

Presto! Obama solved their problem. He eliminates subsidies for Medicare Advantage. The elderly will have to pay more for coverage under Medigap, but the AARP — which supposedly represents them — will make more money. (If this galls you, join the American Seniors Association, the alternative group; contact sbarton@americanseniors.org. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .)

* The drug industry backed ObamaCare and, in return, got a 10-year limit of $80 billion on cuts in prescription drug costs. (A drop in the bucket of their almost $3 trillion projected cost over the next decade.) They also got administration assurances that it will continue to bar lower-cost Canadian drugs from coming into the U.S. All it had to do was put its formidable advertising budget at the disposal of the administration.

* Insurance companies got access to 40 million potential new customers. But when the Senate Finance Committee lowered the fine that would be imposed on those who don’t buy insurance from $3,500 to $1,500, the insurance companies jumped ship and now oppose the bill, albeit for the worst of motives.

The only industry that refused to knuckle under was the medical device makers. They stood for principle and wouldn’t go along with Obama’s blackmail. So the Senate Finance Committee retaliated by imposing a tax on medical devices such as automated wheelchairs, pacemakers, arterial stents, prosthetic limbs, artificial knees and hips and other necessary accoutrements of healthcare.

So these endorsements are not freely given, but bought and paid for by an administration that is intent on passing its program at any cost.”

Nov 8, 2009 - 1:05 am 213. starling:

Batman @ 58 said “The obvious is that political correctness most certainly was part of why Hasan was not disciplined or removed from his responsibilities.”

I’m inclined to agree. And it makes me wonder: if we were talking about a white-supremacist member of the World Church of the Creator (http://www.adl.org/backgrounders/wcotc.asp), would there be even one second of hesitation in disciplining and/or removing this person from his responsibilities? This is not a rhetorical question. I have no knowledge of how the military handles such matters but I suspect they’d come down on such a person like a ton of bricks.

Nov 8, 2009 - 1:51 am 214. Fausta’s Blog » Blog Archive » Fort Hood massacre: Guess who’s tied to a 9/11 imam:

[...] Richard Fernandez asks, What happened at Walter Reed? What happened at Walter Reed? Did Hasan have an influential patron? If Hasan had exhibited certain [...]

Nov 8, 2009 - 10:22 am

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