The post Frame described the difficulties of circumscribing a problem. A lawyer who wanted an expert estimate of how much dope a smuggler might have been bringing into a certain airport found that the statistician could not answer the question so readily. The problem was finding the right frame.
How you answered the question depended on how you defined the problem. One approach was to take the average amount that drug smugglers carried and base the sentence on that. Or you could estimate his load based on what mules from that particular country tried to bring into that particular airport. But since drug trafficking was also seasonal his probable load varied with the time of year. Moreover, it was established that it was his eighth smuggling trip into the country and he may have been entrusted with more than the average amount because of his experience. … So for a statistician to say anything meaningful about the estimated amount of drugs the mule was carrying you first had to choose which reference set to use. … whether it was better to choose a narrower or wider frame. Suppose you chose Frame A. How would you know you had gotten the frame right? Was there any way to assign a truth proposition to an assertion that you had chosen the “correct” frame?
But reference sets plague more than statisticians. Chris Matthews, in discussing the issue of the Fort Hood shooter, used the Framing problem in order to refuse to make any judgments about whether the act could have been anticipated. Matthews argued that it was very difficult to know where the lines between freedom, crime and terrorism began or ended. Speaking of Hasan, Matthews said, “apparently he tried to contact al Qaeda. Is that the point at which you say, ‘This guy is dangerous?’ That’s not a crime to call up al Qaeda, is it? Is it? I mean, where do you stop the guy?” Poor Matthews was baffled.
CHRIS MATTHEWS: You know, I have a hard time with this because people like Sirhan Sirhan, who is still serving time for killing Bobby Kennedy, didn’t like what Bobby Kennedy had said on television. Bobby Kennedy had made political statements saying we’re going to sell arms, fighter planes directly to Israel, not under the table. We’re going to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Those are the things that triggered his killing spree. He killed one person – Bobby Kennedy, horrifically. But did he become a different religious person because he committed the crime? And when did this happen?
See – we have a problem. How do we know when someone like Hasan is going to make his move and do we know he’s an Islamist until he’s made his move? He makes a phone call or whatever, according to Reuters right now. Apparently he tried to contact al Qaeda. Is that the point at which you say, ‘This guy is dangerous?’ That’s not a crime to call up al Qaeda, is it? Is it? I mean, where do you stop the guy?” …
Well, this guy, according to all the testament, admittedly it has not been admitted into court. We cannot call him the shooter until we have a trial. That’s the way we work here, you know, that’s how it works in America, certainly not in the news business. You can’t call somebody a murderer until you get a conviction in court. And the question here is when can you identify a problem? That’s what we have to deal with. And you say it’s an ideological point – you can find the problem. But then we get into the business of checking out on people’s thinking. And that’s the problem.
When does a person become a danger, when they have a certain thought system? Or when they go out and buying semi-automatic pistols, or when they start phoning up al Qaeda, saying how can I join the gang? I mean, where do you stop a person? This is criminology, maybe not ideology, but or even religion. But how do we weed out a guy – it seems to me, all of the warning signs, I mean, we have seen them all now. It’s like looking at pictures of Muhammad Ata hanging around convenience stores and going to ATM machines. We got all kinds of information about this guy after it’s too late.
But this guy was running around shooting his mouth off saying how he hated this country’s wars with – look, you can listen to me on television and hear me saying I didn’t like the war with Iraq. You know, I don’t agree with the war on Iraq and a lot of Americans didn’t like the war with Iraq. They didn’t start shooting people about it.
Others who were perhaps more simple-minded than Matthews disagreed. “I think the very fact that you’ve got a major in the US Army contacting [a radical imam], or attempting to contact him, would raise some red flags,” Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) — ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee — told the Los Angeles Times.”
Still, the frame problem is a significant one. Foreign Policy describes how from a certain point of view, British born Taliban are just businessmen, or chemically assisted evangelists if you will. Recent electronic intercepts in Afghanistan show that many of the Taliban grew up in the Midlands and want nothing more than to sell dope to the British the better to convert them to Islam. In an article called British Muslim Gangs and the Chemical Jihad, FP wrote:
For some time, Royal Air Force spy planes have picked up radio communication between Taliban fighters who speak with thick accents from Manchester, Birmingham, West Bromwich and Bradford, all cities with large populations of British Muslims of South Asian origin. … The Gambinos, gangsters of Pakistani origin who take their name from the New York crime family, have been linked to selling Afghan heroin in north London and Luton. So have the South Man Syndicate (SMS) and the Muslim Boys (who are also known as the PDC, or Poverty Driven Children).
“The big bosses have Taliban and al Qaeda connections and we’re often told only to deal it to non-Muslims. They call it chemical jihad and hope to ruin lives while getting massive payouts at the same time,” said a street dealer quoted in this British tabloid.
Members of the Muslim Boys, a gang of Afro-Caribbean Muslim converts (many of who converted to Islam in prison) have boasted to the British media of their links to to al Qaeda, although British officials admit it is hard to tell how much is bravado and how much is a sign of a concrete relationship between extremists in South Asia and the Muslim gangs of the U.K.
At what point do the activities of the Gambinos, South Man Syndicates or the Poverty Driven Children shade into terrorism? Globalization has put tremendous power in the hands of nonstate actors. When, for example, does electronic crime cross the border into cyberterrorism? Robert Lemos describes the intersection between pornography, spam, fraud and national security hacking. And should electronic criminal gangs be treated as potential extensions of foreign intelligence agencies?
“They were running botnet controllers for spamming and other malicious activity,” says André DiMino, co-founder and director of the Shadowserver Foundation. “We had pretty good visibility into what they were doing.”
In June, the FTC took legal action, getting a court order to shut down the company’s Internet connections without first notifying its owners. Digital thieves who used the service to host the servers that managed their far-flung network of compromised computers, or bots, could no longer contact those systems. Botnets of hundreds of thousands of such systems, responsible for spamming millions of messages a day, suddenly fell quiet. …
Similar to other takedowns, the Internet saw an immediate benefit: Spam from a particularly pernicious botnet, known as Cutwail, dropped to nearly zero for days.
As before, the decrease in criminal activity did not last and spam levels increased soon after. Yet, in every move in the cat-and-mouse game, law enforcement and the security community work more closely together.
But having “pretty good visibility into what they were doing” is not the same as understanding what that someone is doing. The NY Post now reports that the FBI had long been aware that Major Hasan was in communication with radical Islamists, but believed it was connected to his research “research into how US combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan affect civilians.” Hasan’s comms to jihadis weren’t protected by encryption. They were protected by the frame.
Two Chinese PLA colonels, Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui were among the first modern theorists to recognize the power of the frame in military operations. In a book called Unrestricted Warfare, the two men argued the vital importance of using International Law to cripple the enemy. The concept is called Lawfare.
n the book, Lawfare is described as “International Law Warfare” and is mentioned alongside several other means by which offensive action may be carried to the enemy without force of arms. In a more detailed aside, it is further described as “Seizing the earliest opportunity to set up regulations.” The book notes that powerful nations take a prerogative to make their own rules, but at the same token bind themselves with them. A second actor could circumvent these regulations because it is not similarly bound by them. Thus, it would be a serious disadvantage to the powerful nation, allowing the smaller nation comparative freedom.
By exploiting the boundary or frame problem (”dissent is the highest form of patriotism” vs treason or “religious freedom” vs Jihad) the militarily weaker foe could tie up a much stronger enemy indefinitely. CS Lewis argued that the greatest trick the devil ever achieved was convince humanity that he didn’t exist. About the only thing that might prove to Chris Matthews is that we’re never sure when the devil is simply providing entertainment or has actually decided to do something bad.
Update:
Of course the most important Frame is the legal one. Trent in comments points to AJ Strata’s extensive analysis of the question of why there is so much information available on Hasan’s previous activities and why so little action was taken. AJ Strata’s conclusion: someone stopped the investigation in 2009. A Newsweek article rooted indirectly in the AJ Strata piece reports that an investigation from 2008 was deep sixed when the FBI concluded that Hasan’s communications with al-Qaeda were protected by “free speech”. The implied timeline is congruent with Strata’s speculation. Michael Isikoff writes (emphasis mine):
Senior federal investigators confirmed Tuesday night that since last December, the FBI monitored from 10 to 20 “communications” between suspected Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan and an overseas terror suspect known for preaching violence and expressing sympathy for Al Qaeda.
But although an FBI-led task force undertook an “assessment” of the Army psychiatrist as a result of those contacts, counter-terror officials concluded earlier this year that Hasan’s communications with the terror suspect were “protected” by “free speech” and did not warrant opening up a criminal investigation of him, the investigators said.
What changed between December 2008 and early 2009? Once again we run into the frame and Isikoff reports that Justice officials are suggesting that gun data restrictions were partly to blame but is smart enough to know that this is hardly likely to fly. The long and short of it is that the Feds had long been watching Hasan, but somewhere, somebody dropped — or was told to drop — the ball.
As to Hasan’s weapons purchase, the investigators stressed that under existing federal law, there are tight restrictions imposed by Congress about sharing any such information even within the FBI. … The FBI has chafed under these restrictions in the past but has failed to have them eased due to fierce resistance from the gun lobby and its supporters in Congress (as well as, in the past, in the Bush administration.)
Whether the Hasan case prompts another look at those restrictions – by the Democratic controlled Congress or the Obama Justice Department—is one question sure to be asked in the weeks ahead.
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115 Comments
1. toad:Setting the frame.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:11 am 2. Richard Aubrey:I finally got around to seeing “V is for Vengeance” on a Netflix DVD. It is supposed to be a drama but I found my self smiling at the “frame” repeatedly. The evil Conservative religious dictator had installed censorship, curfews, bullying by law enforcement, constant CCTV and audio surveillance, and host of other abuses….pretty much everything the current NuLabor left trying to do. Even when the graphic novel the movie is based on was first published, there were signs the the left was going to the dark side of the farce.
And yet the “creative” types can’t let go of their frame even as it slices their fingers.
Ah yes, nothing against her, but why in a film about Britain with good British actors did an American Natalie Portman get cast as the British female lead (He asked facetiously)?
I don’t recall framing arguments when the Bush admin was being pilloried for not connecting various dots.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:32 am 3. Cannoneer No. 4:Seems the dots we have this time are substantially more explicit.
Also, as somebody on another blog asked, did Hasan have a rabbi?
Well, having been a minor figure on the Obama transition team might lead someone–his reviewer or commander–to think so, even if there was no undue command influence.
But we don’t know there was none, not for sure.
We cannot call him the shooter until we have a trial.
By that reasoning, Chris, you can’t call me a vigilante until after I have been tried and convicted in a court of law of inflicting upon you something the mere discussion of which could be construed by some as conspiracy to commit an illegal act.
See how that works, Chris? But who could possibly expect you to abide by the same rules?
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:33 am 4. michaelhoskins:It seems a vicious circle.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:42 am 5. Habu:The Copernican Revolution, later formalized by Kuhn as a paradigm, was a frame shift. The concept of shifting frames greatly influenced Kant, who, many say, created modern critical thought.
Now, however, critical thought is so caught up in frame shifting (revisionist history, pc (framelessness!) and paralysis by analysis) we have lost the art of seeing, thinking and reasoning.
Gravity, though not understood, still works. Islam, though completely understood, is still evil. The West is still looking for a frame that provides the predetermined answer.
When we look at reality, a streched canvas w/o frame, we may yet get somewhere.
America is everywhere frayed. No longer are we one nation and one people. Hundreds of millions have come and tens of millions are coming whose first loyalty is to the kinfolk and country they left behind, and to the mores and folkways of their native lands. islam especially. And if, in our long war against “islamofascism,” we are seen as trampling on their nation, faith or kinsmen, they see us, as the enemy of their sacred identity.
America, circa 1950 was a nation of 150 million with a Euro-Christian core and a culture all its own. We were a people then with the light of Enlightenment philosophies known to most all.
We have become, in 2009, a stew of 315 millions, of every creed, culture, color and country of Earth, and nothing holds us together. And the miasma emanating from places like Dearborn are dangerously mephitic and the revanchist southwest is just as bad.
Our ideas, incorporated in our founding documents and symbolized by the Statue of Liberty were for mankind ,but not necessarily for all of mankind to immigrate to America and then attempt to retain their old ways…today they just want the goodies.
The Statue of Liberty is not the symbol of the United States. It should be removed and returned to the French with a kind note saying it is their turn to carry the torch, for we simply cannot survive the wretched who infect us today. We are inexorably marching toward a civil war where all muslims are far game.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:46 am 6. cfbleachers:The book notes that powerful nations take a prerogative to make their own rules, but at the same token bind themselves with them. A second actor could circumvent these regulations because it is not similarly bound by them.
Precisely. And, to bring the argument full circle, one cannot anticipate EVER “winning” a rigged game in which one party adheres to a set of rules that the other side has no intention of following.
This applies to all the vital issues of the day.
We are fighting an external enemy who has no intention of engaging us by rules of Geneva, the Marquess of Queensbury or any other written convention for that matter. AND…IF WE were to fight them in return on THEIR terms…we would be excoriated by our internal, “eternal harangue machine”..(and all of their compatriots and “faux victim” parade around the world).
Israel faces this problem daily. It’s a setup. It’s a canard. It’s a fraud. The left flank of the enemy, is the eternal harangue machine.
No matter WHICH response we choose, it will always be labeled as “disproportionate” or will have it’s “intent” harangued (blood for oil, Haliburton, Daddy’s revenge, etc.)
The internal left (and their disingenuous BBC-like compatriots) will erode our will to defend ourselves by constantly haranguing our motives, intent, magnitude of response…and by PRETENDING to care about the “boys in the field” and their sacrifices. (a lesson they learned after Viet Nam, when they spit on them and threw bags of human feces at them and called them “baby killers”…which didn’t play well in Peoria).
What they REALLY feel…is much more subtle in detection these days. It comes by way of more subtle clues, it is less overt. They NEED the “sacrifice” of injury and death of soldiers…to paint “grim milestones”…all the better to erode our resolve.
But we ignore those subtle clues at our peril.
Wretchard, we have been losing the “frame” war for 40 years. It is all around us. It is in our language and lexicon. Political CORRECTness…is actually political corrosion.
“Mainstream” media…is really our Machiavellian media, the entrenched internal harangue machine’s greatest weapon. They are no more representative of “mainstream” thought than is the Worker’s Party Daily. But THEY frame the issues.
The idea is NOT to wrestle the crocodiles in the water. We can’t argue with “Kris Tingle” Matthews about whether it is a crime to make a phone call. Because the seminal issue is how do we keep America and our countrymen safe from attack by our enemies.
Once we KNOW that a major with a proclivity to announce bad intentions toward our nation is in contact with the enemy, we have probable cause to intervene. We KNEW he made contact with al-Qaeda. We KNEW he had announced anti-American and pro-enemy statements. That is enough to take action to protect ourselves. The confines of military and civilian justice allow for surveillance and interdiction at that point.
But we don’t…because we fear LESS the outcome of the external enemy action, than the eternal harangue machine. So, let’s the fight the battle we fear most…first. We are at a crossroads, anyway.
Let’s identify the internal enemy and let’s engage. Using OUR language. Using truth. I say we take the high ground…and today isn’t soon enough.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:48 am 7. Habu:America is everywhere frayed. No longer are we one nation and one people. Hundreds of millions have come and tens of millions are coming whose first loyalty is to the kinfolk and country they left behind, and to the mores and folkways of their native lands. islam especially. And if, in our long war against “islamofascism,” we are seen as trampling on their nation, faith or kinsmen, they see us, as the enemy of their sacred identity.
America, circa 1950 was a nation of 150 million with a Euro-Christian core and a culture all its own. We were a people then with the light of Enlightenment philosophies known to most all.
We have become, in 2009, a stew of 315 millions, of every creed, culture, color and country of Earth, and nothing holds us together. And the miasma emanating from places like Dearborn are dangerously mephitic and the revanchist southwest is just as bad.
Our ideas, incorporated in our founding documents and symbolized by the Statue of Liberty were for mankind ,but not necessarily for all of mankind to immigrate to America and then attempt to retain their old ways…today they just want the goodies.
The Statue of Liberty is not the symbol of the United States. It should be removed and returned to the French with a kind note saying it is their turn to carry the torch, for we simply cannot survive the wretched who infect us today. We are inexorably marching toward a civil war where all muslims are fair game.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:48 am 8. Habu:W,
Several times in the last week I have posted but not seen the “edit” timeframe, nor the product. Thus the site ends up double posted.
Just thought you would want to know.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:51 am 9. Brock:This “Frame” seems to be creating more confusion than clarity. I don’t think there’s any real connection between the three examples, and most of them are just stuff we already knew.
Those PLA Colonels were just saying “Hey, Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals works for us too.”
Chris Mathew’s points can be more easily explained by his multicultural philosophy, which refuses to judge any belief system on the merits, because the whole idea of “merits” is just more Western aggression and colonialism. He avoids have to offer an objective scale of “good/bad” at all costs. I had an Anthropology professor in college like that, who refused to say that institutionalized NAMBLA-rape in the context of the tribes he studied was bad. It was instead “just their way.”
As for Statistics, you don’t need a “frame.” You need to test variables until you get forward-looking predictability. Which is also the answer to Chris Mathews’ question.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:59 am 10. Insufficiently Sensitive:Well, this guy, according to all the testament, admittedly it has not been admitted into court. We cannot call him the shooter until we have a trial. That’s the way we work here, you know, that’s how it works in America, certainly not in the news business.
Chris Matthews is unspeakably stupid, or unspeakably misleading. In a courtroom, yes, the shooter is not guilty until convicted. But Matthews thinks he’s in the ‘news’ business!
His entire career has been invested into an industry which is thought to bring facts to the general public. And in the duration of his career, that industry has made a religion of sorting those facts, burnishing some, omitting others, with the end result hoped to shape public opinion in a direction agreeable to the high priests of the news industry – including Matthews.
Every one of his ‘news’ broadcasts is a trial, with his research staff and himself as prosecutors. There is no defense, judgement springs from the minds of his audience, and his lordly salary measures the value of his prosecutions and those judgements to his employers.
We cannot call him the shooter until we have a trial. That’s the way we work here, you know, that’s how it works in America… Really, Chris? By the rules of your industry, sufficient facts have been given to your audience to convict this poor suffering victim forty times over in the court of public opinion. That court and its workings are the only competence you own, Chris, and you know as well as we do what evidence (no, ‘news’) has been furnished from witnesses and Hasan’s family and colleagues.
Your attempt to reverse this verdict is a ludicrous exercise in political correctness. Give it up. Lay back and enjoy it. Your own chickens have come home to roost.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:59 am 11. Habu:A great frame and exposure of what the Democrats are doing with healthcare.
“Why are they doing it? Because, according to Mr. Cassidy, ObamaCare serves the twin goals of “making the United States a more equitable country” and furthering the Democrats’ “political calculus.” In other words, the purpose is to further redistribute income by putting health care further under government control, and in the process making the middle class more dependent on government. As the party of government, Democrats will benefit over the long run.”
less that a page…worth reading…http://tinyurl.com/yjase66
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:02 am 12. Lifeofthemind:toad,
‘Cause she’s hawt.
If one of our less theoretical friends walked into Chris Matthews studio and … Best not to continue that hypothetical except to note that the most galling thing about him and similar enablers of weakness before the thugs and terrorists is also their greatest vulnerability before the public. They are hypocrites. They know that the $35,000/yr security guard will be there to protect them.
The simpler answer is that there are multiple levels of framing available. A citizen is allowed to shoot his mouth off with other citizens with impunity but cannot engage in planning an actual criminal act without facing liability. They must also be aware that if they associate with another person, giving aid and support, and then that person engages in a criminal act there is the possibility that they could face a conspiracy charge. The right of a citizen to contact a foreign national is significant but not absolute. Just as the passport is the property of the United States and the government has the right to restrict travel to Cuba or North Korea the government has the right to restrict communication with foreign persons.
For a member of the armed services and particularly for an officer there are additional restrictions. Contacting foreign persons or entities, particularly those designated as hostile or of concern to counter-intelligence, without prior notification to senior authority or designated offices may violate security regulations. That can lead to charges under the UCMJ. So yes Mr clueless Matthews calling al-Qaeda can be against the law. People like Chris Matthews should be publicly pilloried, challenged, harangued, denigrated, destroyed, discredited, ruined and unemployed. They are public trolls and cannot be simply ignored.
It is often said that the problem isn’t that we need new laws but that we need to enforce the laws we have.
Anything that blurs the line between State and Non-State actors should be fought. In this our commentator HEPT seems to get it wrong. The problem isn’t that Obama is pushing a failed Westphalian model but that he and the Left have been enabling the proxies and gangs that give the plausibility to plausible deniability. The problem with failed states like Somalia, and potentially Afghanistan and Pakistan. Is that they do not face the consequences that failure demands under the Westphalian model. They should be formally occupied and the population convinced that failure to abide by international norms has real and painful consequences, like having to be polite to overseas missionaries on pain of death. Even Iraq was restored to sovereignty to fast.
The British have to make the decision, are the Midlands Muslims a law enforcement problem or are they a rebellious army in league with a foreign power?
Habu,
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:06 am 13. Trent Telenko:I usually have to wait a minute and then reload to see my post or edit.
Wretchard,
You need to go read and comment on these two posts by AJ Strata:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/11268
Note how two investigations were initiated. My guess is the first JTTF was out of New York which handles most terrorism cases. But when it hit the JTTF in DC (and got close to the political winds of the new administration) it seems to have discovered some interesting and politically correct reasons to stop the investigation.
and
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/11256
The NSA clearly intercepted Major Hasan communicating with a well established al Qaeda supporter and/or agent. The FBI was alerted and for some unknown reason decided not to investigate this. Under President Bush there would be no doubt as to what to do – ensure our safety and monitor this man.
The Obama administration either dismissed the threat or stopped the FBI from doing more investigation. Given the lameness of the excuses being floated I am thinking the latter, but the former is just as bad.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:13 am 14. anton:Chris Matthews is a hoot, this guys is soooo nuanced that I could tell him that I intend to kill him by feeding him piosoned soup and with each spoonful he would be asking, “Is this soup truly poisoned?, I mean really, look at me, I’m not dead yet. Should we believe that anton is killing me with poisoned soup? How do we know for sure that it is really anton that is poisoning me as opposed to just a greedy capitalistic company making a shoddy product?”
This sort of thinking freezes the mind in a perpetual loop of trying to be “absolutely certain” when “reasonably sure” is more than sufficient.
BTW reading that transcript leaves me asking how anybody could criticize W’s use of the English language. Matthews spews a sting of half-completed statements that are indicative of truly poor preparation or a badly organized mind.
For general purposes the Probable Cause standard that US law enforcement has used for years is a good basis to employ to decide when to start looking at someone. You have probable cause to believe that a crime is being committed and that this person is involved.
If an any soldier is in contact with Islamic forces that have declared war upon the US (and pretty much all of Western Civilization, check their list of fatwas) that certainly bears looking into. If he is doing so as part of his work (Intel or PsyOps) the contacts should be closely supervised as a general principle. If he is doing so on his own time, or in ways outside of his work, there is probable cause to think that he is involved in criminal activity, i.e. treason. This would call for a very close scrutiny of his activies at the very minimum or arrest if there was any sign of overt acts. If a decision is made to not act right away, to “follow the lead” if you will, then a very close surveillance to reveal who he is in contact with and exactly what is being planned is required. Think in terms of a narcotics investigation where the officer is working under cover with an informant, you have to keep tabs on the informant because you need to be certain that he “stays on the team”.
In Hasan’s case the frame was pretty obviously there (if the accounts so far presented are true), nobody was willing to look. This guy needed to be placed under constant close survellance as part of an investigation into treasonous activity.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:27 am 15. Josh:w, this “frame” stuff is infamous pomo litcrit claptrap. i mean yes frame sure frame but it comes down to what it comes down to. look at chris matthews, he’s twisting his own melon and can’t make sense of the obvious anymore. don’t let the frame thing happen to you. frame is a tool, and if it ends up mystifying you, it’s the wrong tool. even useful tools are dangerous, and not everyone has a real use for a chainsaw.
Anyone in the military who will say on the record, “I put sharia law before the constitution” should certainly be excluded from the military, with or without jail term. And I think we must realize that putting sharia LAW before the constitution is not a religious statement – not a religious statement alone – and is intolerably disruptive of our civil law systems, local state and federal, and should be grounds for deportation, at least. Yes, I suggest driving this underground, if that’s what it is. And I suppose we will, after a while. Call it Hasan’s Law.
And oh yeah, I wanted to *defend* Hasan for a moment, insofar as I can see that this “contacting Al Qaeda” when it’s only his old buddy the imam, could be downplayed by the various genius investigating authorities. What I mean is that it is misleading for the MSM to phrase it that way. In actual terms, advocating violent jihad against the US is treason and should be actionable immediately, especially within the military, Al Qaeda or not. How complex is that? Not in the least. This claptrap that it’s not terrorism if he does it “on his own” is frame abuse. Anyway, any good pomo knows that nobody does anything alone, how can you kill someone else, if you are alone?
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:29 am 16. Charles:Here’s a 1st hand account of the shooting at ft hood.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:35 am 17. Don Rodrigo:Which part of “Major Hasan is in the frikkin U.S. Army” does Chris Matthews not get? AND, he’s not alone, since, apparently, Army personnel don’t seem to appreciate the significance of the fact that an army can’t have it’s people making contact with an enemy, much less openly espousing the views of those who would kill us. As Prof. Hanson put it, “Have we lost our collective mind?”
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:40 am 18. wretchard:Trent,
Thanks for the heads up. The implicit question is if a change in the rules of surveillance let Hasan slip past then who else is out there? What other investigations have been called off?
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:42 am 19. Cincinnatus:Ignoring idiots is all part of elevated discussion on the internet.
The last people to be executed for treason were the Rosenburgs in 1953. There’s been a loss of instinct for protection of our society.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:52 am 20. Fen:Filcher Chris Mathews: “That’s the way we work here, you know, that’s how it works in America, certainly not in the news business. You can’t call somebody a murderer until you get a conviction in court”
Hey Chrissy, you can call somebody a murderer BEFORE you get the conviction.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:56 am 21. Paul Milenkovic:The answer is half a cow.
The question comes from a conference with an attorney who was representing me in a real estate closing. The discussion was about tax consequences of the purchase and potential later sale, and my attorney told a tale of a “Belgian farmer” (why do you think Favre was so immensely popular in Green Bay. A Mississippi Cajun whom all the locals of Walloon-Belgian heritage thought had to be one of them). This man was being represented in an IRS audit.
The auditor asked, “How many cows did you butcher for your own table, because you are going to have to pay tax on them as ‘income’?” The farmer gave a look of puzzlement over to his lawyer, not knowing how to answer the question or not knowing if he should answer the question. So then the auditor decides to “split the difference” and offers to “put you down for half a cow.”
My own attorney had to explain that the joke is funny — cows come in whole number units. Half-a-cow is a kind of government-approved negotiation to “split the difference.”
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:05 am 22. Lifeofthemind:We need James Jesus Angleton now more than ever.
We need to stop the Sulzbergers, the Immelts, the Moonveses, the Igers and the Pritzkers of America. They must be stripped of their last pennies and tossed onto the road.
What is wrong with these people? Can’t they see how undermining the American system increases the danger of attack, weakens the rule of law, and increases the risk of bigoted backlash? Employing people like Chris Matthews now is like running into a crowded theater with a molotov cocktail and a match.
This has nothing to do with supporting liberal causes and voting to improve health care for some poor kids.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:07 am 23. anton:“But although an FBI-led task force undertook an “assessment” of the Army psychiatrist as a result of those contacts, counter-terror officials concluded earlier this year that Hasan’s communications with the terror suspect were “protected” by “free speech” ”
This is why the FBI is known in many law-enforcement agencies as “F%$&ing Bunch of Idiots”. As a civilian Hasan just might have been protected by free speech. As an officer in the Army that is simply madness.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:18 am 24. cfbleachers:This whole “frame” meme got me to thinking about a closing argument I made many years ago, in which the “People’s Lawyers”… a communist front group, was trying to paint my clients as bullies.
They tried to “frame” the issue as “big guy vs. little guy”, in order to tap into an American instinct to always “root for the little guy”, the underdog.
What I said then and believe now…is there are pipsqueak tyrants. There are guys who are in totalitarian power pretending to be “little underdogs”. And that NOBODY…cries for the big guy when he gets picked on.
Being painted as the “big guy”…means in “little guy” framing…that you are a bully, that you are dense, that you are not nuanced, that you are not compassionate, that you are the antithesis of “good”.
Yet, in my experience…nothing is further from the truth. “Little man syndrome”, a “Napoleonic complex”, …shows how it really works, but is not depicted or framed.
Who cries for the big guys when they get picked on unmercifully? Not a damned soul.
And that’s the shame of it all. We allow that to happen and we buy into it’s rotten premise. We ought to take our underdogs and our “victims” where we find them.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:29 am 25. Morton Doodslag:Crime vs War.
It seems to me that there are several sub-set “frames” implicit in each approach, but that crime vs war is the general frame or context. With regard to Islamic Jihad, huge problems emerge with the crime frame of the liberal Western mindset. I don’t just refer to those on the left in that regard. In a crime context there’s an inevitable preoccupation with “motive”, due process, and especially among the Left, a fixation on “social justice” which obscures the situation hopelessly.
The world’s Muslim are clear about their intent and their actions. Jihad is not a criminal enterprise, but a perpetual war waged against imperfect Muslims and especially evil unbelievers to advance defend and protect pure Islam.
It is critical to understand that Muslims interpret resistance to Islam as an attack on Islam. It is critical to understand that Muslims regard unbelief as an attack on Islam. Muslims surely must regard the Western determination to view their Islamic Jihad through a criminal frame rather than a war frame to be a great sign of Allah’s favor. They will continue to do everything in their power to keep it that way.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:33 am 26. RWE:I understand that the very day that Hasan did his shooting the Congress voted to strip the Patriot Act of the very provisions that enabled the monitoring of “indivduals without connections to a known terrorist group.”
As for “lawfare” – a Smith and Wesson beats four aces.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:38 am 27. Josh:Frames? I got yer frames right here.
First, the Army or someone is now saying that OF COURSE Hasan was contacting jihad sites – as part of his job, researching them. Riiiiight.
Second, listening to Rush, the NYTimes is describing how there is drunkeness, divorce, whatever else at Fort Hood anyway, apparently putting this into context, perspective … frame. Well, of course! It’s – in the south! It’s – a military base! It’s – in Texas! Of course there are shootings. What has that got to do with jihad?
Third, Obama keeps talking about this TRAGEDY. Tragedy? Or OUTRAGE! Or, FULLY EXPECTED OUTRAGE! Oh, great, Obama explaining “that there are situations were people … crack.”
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:38 am 28. Josh:Morton @ 25: Outstanding.
It is critical to understand that Muslims interpret resistance to Islam as an attack on Islam. It is critical to understand that Muslims regard unbelief as an attack on Islam. Muslims surely must regard the Western determination to view their Islamic Jihad through a criminal frame rather than a war frame to be a great sign of Allah’s favor. They will continue to do everything in their power to keep it that way.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:40 am 29. anton:26. RWE: “indivduals without connections to a known terrorist group.” as for Congress dropping those powers; I am all for ending the Patriot Act, God knows that this adminsitration will never use those powers against our known enemies and I am not really happy with such powers in the hands of known collectivists.
I am with you on the Smith & Wesson thing. Three rounds rapid, repeat as needed.
25. Morton Doodslag, your last two paragraphs are the most succinct statement of our current predicament as I have ever heard.
Permission to use is humbly requested.
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:18 am 30. maineman:Chesterton said, “The essence of the painting is the frame.”
You can hear Matthew’s head starting to twist off because he really has no frame, and therefore no picture. If you read that interview as a transcript of a therapy session, you would have to wonder if the patient was psychotic. Which of course in a way he is.
In his (and Obama’s) world there are no frames, at least none that are absolute and transcend the individual’s perspective. Under those conditions the frame changes with change itself, which is constant, so all is chaos in his mind as he grapples with a reality that is untenable for him.
Since liberals believe that human beings are inherently good, not sinful and in need of betterment by external structure (absolutes), the individual perspective trumps all and that results in a relativistic world in which the will to power triumphs.
The literal nature of the group suicide pact that was the ‘08 election is getting clearer by the day.
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:32 am 31. Gordon:All: read Ralph Peters’ column today about the minority quota system in Army promotion boards.
Quote: “This corrupt (and now deadly) affirmative-action system does a severe disservice to the bulk of minority officers, who make the grade on quality and professionalism. It leaves other officers wondering if the new guy who just showed up in the unit is a “real” officer or an affirmative-action baby.”
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:36 am 32. oMan:Morton @25: you win BPOT (Best Post on Thread) at least for now. Very compact statement of a big problem.
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:37 am 33. Flapjack:# 15
The Chainsaw of Logic. Chris Matthews should not be trying to use that. He’s just going to cut something off that he might need later. Reading that paragraph by Matthews, I thought he was choking on his own tongue (or somebody else’s).
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:42 am 34. Subotai Bahadur:It is simply that neither Chris Matthews, nor his employers, nor his colleagues, nor those that give them orders are our countrymen.
It is inconceivable to Matthews that anything but his own “frame” exists. He cannot understand that there is a different law for the military, the UCMJ; or that there is a higher standard of conduct than his own that is incumbent on patriots. Nor can he encompass the idea that greater power is accompanied by greater responsibility and liability for one’s actions. In his world, power equals license and the status of being above the law that is exclusively for the contemptible little people.
Any member of the armed forces, but especially an officer, contacting the enemy in time of war [and the War Powers Act declaration by Congress on 09/12/01 is the legal equivalent of a Declaration of War] without permission from superiors is in fact a crime. It is defined under the UCMJ as “Aiding the Enemy” in Article 104:
“Any person who—
(1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or
(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly; shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.” [My emphasis]
Further, having been caught in the act and reported for trying to convince his Muslim patients NOT to fight the enemy if they were Muslims, he committed another offense, Article 82 “Solicitation”. The article is long, so I won’t quote it in full [the punitive articles of the UCMJ, 77-134 are available online as is the entire UCMJ], but the moment that he made any statement encouraging sedition, mutiny, desertion, or misbehavior in the face of the enemy; he became liable to imprisonment if it was not done, and death if the people so advised committed the act.
So yes, Chrissy; I know it may interfere with your leg tingling, but realize that in fact it is a crime for a member of the armed forces to “call Al Quada”. As it is to attempt to convince our forces not to fight.
The problem that is causing cognitive dissonance for Matthews, his colleagues, the administration, and almost all Democrats is that they do not consider Al Quada to be the enemy. Nor, really, do they consider what Hasan did to be more than technically a crime.
They are, in their “frame”, literally TWANLOC; Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen. The enemy to them is this country and all it stands for. Anyone who opposes and attacks the United States; be they terrorists, foreign countries, separatist movements not based in defending American values [say the Nation of Atzlan -vs- any Texas independence talk] are all valued allies of Matthews, his ilk, and the politicians and party they support.
He cannot encompass that an officer or elected official can be bound by laws that limit their support for his side. Otherwise, he would have to admit that when John Kerry negotiated with the North Vietnamese while still being a commissioned officer in the Naval Reserve [you are still covered, even when not on active duty], he committed a capital punishment level felony. Further, every time in the last half century that Democrats went overseas to negotiate with foreign leaders to help them oppose the official foreign policy of the United States Government; they violated other laws that should have been enforced.
As far as TWANLOC are concerned, laws that impede their holy work against the enemy, the United States and its people, are not valid.
#6 cfbleachers is dead right, albeit perhaps too charitable to them as far as judging their intent and motives.
#2 Richard Aubrey is quite possibly right that the perception that he was personaly connected to the regime because of his position on the transition team, and thus above the rule of law; may have contributed in addition to the normal PC yielding of common sense.
#13 Trent Telenko
Absolutely agreed.
It seems apparent that under the current regime that those in charge of defending against terrorist attacks are either under direct orders not to act against threats if they involve certain favored categories, or they believe in the absence of direct orders that they will be punished if they act on those threats. Just as under the Clinton administration, security forces were barred by the Gorelick Wall from acting against threats [which kept us from accessing the laptop computer of one of the 9/11 plotters in our possession before the attack] because after all, if there were real terrorists, Clinton would have to act. Now, the regime formally denies that there is such a thing as terrorism or foreign directed terrorists targetting us ["man-caused disasters" my aching (deleted)].
It is still up for grabs whether it is willful delusion that if they pretend it is not there it will go away, or if Democrats and their allies further Left are hoping for successful attacks on us, the real enemy. I lean towards the latter. Every bit of evidence coming out shows that by order or imposed cultural mindset, the regime deliberately or otherwise enabled the attack. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is deliberate, hostile action. We have many more instances than that which drew official attention, and many more that did not but which should have.
I can hear the sounds of Chiroptera Lunarii heads exploding at my last paragraph. How dare I impugn Democrats so? Let me explain.
Since January 20 we have seen this regime [I have explained long ago why I refer to it as a "regime" based on their introducing the concept from international trade of "regime risk" to the domestic economy] move in increasingly totalitarian directions.
a) The rule of law is in tatters.
b) Corporations are being functionally seized.
c) The government is acting without statutory authorization for many of its actions. A horde of appointed, unvetted, unconfirmed officials whose only power source is the personal favor of Buraq Hussein Obama are issuing directives with the force of law, outside the law.
d) The Democrats are acting in an uncharacteristic way in Congress. They are ramming legislation down the throats of Americans in the face of overwhelming opposition, using thugs to attack citizens, and the only rational explanation for their actions is that they believe that they will never have to fear an election again.
e) The Attorney General has given his Imprimatur to uniformed, armed thugs intimidating white voters at the polling place.
f)The Democrats fund a group that has been caught repeatedly engaged in voter registration fraud, tax fraud, and which has been filmed attempting to set up child brothels as a routine matter. In reference to the first item, the funded group’s activities coincides with the Democrats amazing new ability to find boxes upon boxes of ballots in their homes and cars weeks AFTER elections and get them counted.
g) Now it seems that defending Americans from attack is subordinated to a decision as to who is politically favored. Guess who isn’t.
It has been a hell of a ride for the country for the last 10 months.
There is enough here to append the tag ‘totalitarian’ to this regime. They have not completed their task, but they are far from done.
Some common factors of totalitarian regimes; be they Russian, German, Latin American, Asian, or whatever.
There is a small group at the top who hold the power. There is a relatively small number of active party members who enable the top group. And there is a larger group that may be party members by choice and affiliation, but not actively involved. Their approval gives force to the upper levels of the pyramid, even though they themselves lack power. They as supporters of the policies that come down, are morally and at times legally, complicit.
Those who oppose a totalitarian regime may fail, but they are morally and legally innocent. This may not include their survival, but in such case they die with clear consciences. It is noteworthy, that after the fall of any totalitarian regime; suddenly everybody claims to have been a pillar of the resistance. The veracity of those claims is dubious.
Those who enable a totalitarian regime, those who support it, those who do not speak or act out when a totalitarian regime acts; they are part of it and are responsible for those acts. Rationally, they should be so viewed.
Know thine enemies.
Our “frames” are so radically different, and the Democrats and the Left are acting so strongly to impose their frame and make us march in lockstep to their totalitarian hell; that they are literally not our countrymen. In fact they do view our country as their enemy. The first thing is to recognize this. The rest will follow, if we are to remain free.
Subotai Bahadur
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:51 am 35. Thrasymachus:The argument is totally bogus. The frame is set whereever it’s convenient for the people who have weaseled themselves into the business of setting frames.
Speaking of weaseling into the business of setting frames, you may remember how Chris Matthews finagled himself the phoney, or more politely put honorary title of “Washington bureau chief for the San Francisco Examiner”, a paper which didn’t actually have a Washington bureau. This title allowed him to appear on talk shows and launched his career as a talking head.
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:57 am 36. Josh:Habu et al, I have those mechanical posting problems too, sometimes the post doesn’t show – but just wait 30 seconds or so and hit refresh, it seems it is always received correctly but sometimes won’t display right away, or even for fifteen seconds. After about a minute, I think it always shows up. No need for double posts.
Now, if someone could fix the Ajax editor so it doesn’t bogusly shift the text when it’s longer than a few lines, that would be nice. I think it works OK on some browsers, but not this here IE8.
–
Like this post didn’t show for me until I hit refresh a few times, then it showed without the click-to-edit, and then one more refresh fixed that – and now I’m fighting with the Ajax window!
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:06 pm 37. SpeakEasy:First, Matthews is WRONG- he can be called the shooter because there are first-hand accounts saying he did in fact shoot people. He may not be called a murderer until he is convicted and his motives are known.
Second, and most important, we need to latch onto the circumstances around the investigation being terminated and work it like a bulldog on a milkbone. We The People deserve a full, bipartisan, congressional investigation into ALL of the leads- Who What When Where Why – this was allowed to happen. With luck, we can uncover an impeachable offense before this country goes too far into the abyss.
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:16 pm 38. joe buzz:Habu, mash the reload button on your browser a couple of times or until your post shows up. Its easier than tiny url. If you want someone to buy you a beer between Arlington and Gettysburg next spring let me know.
Its not only Matthews that is confused, POTUS just said this:
Lots of comment to not.
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:25 pm 39. Josh:POTUS is sure burying that old Dukakis sound bite with his repeated and grotesque insensitivity and obdurate blindness to the obvious.
So, Obama, are you after all the secret Muslim, is that it?
As to who cracks, there is a horrible suicide problem right now in the military, and I don’t want POTUS’s *sympathy* for that one, either. Investigation, action, remediation is needed, not maundering.
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:35 pm 40. maineman:I heard POTUS’ line from some weasel on the radio this morning: Treating these war casualties is a possible source of PTSD and associated derangement — claimed to have found that out from mental health professional.
That’s why so many therapists who treat childhood sexual abuse victims eventually crack and go on shooting sprees.
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:52 pm 41. Knight1:I was out of town this weekend and just catching up. In the first Frame, Doug at #154 wrote of the caller on the Dennis Miller show and his Guadacanal vet father’s comment – Doug, I caught that too and wrote it down – my note has the son, who is going to VN, asking advice of his Dad and the father’s response, “You don’t have to stand tall, you just have to stand.” I thought that was the clearest advice I’d ever heard.
Someone else asked why Wretchard closes the threads – this may have been answered (apologies if so) – I recall Wretchard saying the deadline for posts was 48 hours from the original post.
Nov 10, 2009 - 12:57 pm 42. wretchard:The posts are automatically set to close in 48 hours. Sometimes spammers go to the old posts and start their own private dialogs there. So in this paranoid age, the comments simply close in 48.
Nov 10, 2009 - 1:05 pm 43. Knight1:Recognizing the Marine Corps birthday: to all the Marines, past, present and future, Semper Fidelis. Thank you.
Nov 10, 2009 - 1:17 pm 44. 49erDweet:Shaking head. W actually posting something re: the insipid mewlings of Chris Matthews. Timely, maybe, and possibly informative of the mindset of those charged with maintaining the narrative, but dreadfully predictive and shallow. Cheers, anyway.
Nov 10, 2009 - 1:42 pm 45. presbypoet:One irony of this horror:
These 13 deaths may have a more profound impact to save America, than if they had died in Afghanistan. They have helped reveal the danger of changes o has implemented, that were outside the observable frame. I.E. what other cases of internal treason has 0 stopped? Like the DA in St. Louis, unable to find time or reason to charge thugs. This evidence of a regime acting against the best interests of America, are important data points. These soldiers are not victims of tragedy, but combat losses, killed by treason.
The inability of 0 and his henchmen to admit there are people who’s “religion” demands they kill us, has been very clear this week. Not all will see. Some are still willfully blind and deaf. The battle continues.
We remember and honor the Marines today. Include my wife’s father, who also served on Guadalcanal. I will pull out the partly used message pad he brought home from there, we only found it after he died. He didn’t talk about it. It is an icon of a place where so many paid the price for our freedom. Tomorrow, remember all vets, even those of us lucky enough to serve on Oahu, (1966-1969). The guy on the list ahead of me went to Alaska, I got Hawaii. Either dumb luck, or divine intervention, you know the one i pick.
Fly your flag. Never forget.
Nov 10, 2009 - 2:07 pm 46. batman:The ongoing debate about epistemology continues. For the relativists and the deconstructionists the frame is everything and the picture (aka facts) are nothing. This is especially true when those two destructive forces are merged, for when things have no intrinsic meaning and everything becomes relative and just a matter of your opinion or mine, methods of persuasion change. Logic yields to demagoguery, information leads to propaganda, persuasion leads to force.
Western civilization, built primarily on the foundations of Athens and Jerusalem (or Sinai), has been a hard won 2500+ year process. Gates of Vienna had a series of articles on this, for which I will add the link to the first in their series. http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-did-europeans-create-modern-world.html
You don’t have to agree with everything in the series to recognize that what took thousands of years to build is at great risk of being eroded (at best) or dismantled (at worst).
Real science is supposed to start with observations, move to a hypothesis, test the hypothesis with more observations, some of which occur under controlled experimental settings to identify variables, and then move to a discovery. Yes, the latter is always subject to revision and modification in light of new data or better hypothesis. But it is always anchored to observation of FACTS.
Frames, on the other hand, are basically prejudices that retrofit data so that they conform to preexisting views. For frames, facts are twisted or realigned to match the frame or are disregarded as legitimate.
Lose logic, lose science, lose facts and you will lose civilization. Perhaps this is how Dark Ages start.
Nov 10, 2009 - 2:32 pm 47. ADE:In our society, the biggest frame is the one that comes from the POTUS.
His job is to set the meta context.
Which, of course, he is doing.
Decode his frame – rootless, child of the world, adrift, community agitator, friend of the looney left, and empty, oh so empty.
This is the frame for America.
ADE
Nov 10, 2009 - 3:05 pm 48. Lifeofthemind:On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month.
Nov 10, 2009 - 3:10 pm 49. Sergey:Never forget.
The Commonwealth countries call the day “Remembrance Day.”
Veterans Day.
Tomorrow visit a VA home or cemetery.
Remember.
It is remembering that is what makes us human and alive.
My grandfather was wounded at Château-Thierry.
He died before my mother get married.
I never met him but I remember.
The Marines at Château-Thierry fought in the Belleau Wood.
The French gave them the sobriquet “Devil Dogs.”
I served on the USS Belleau Wood.
No one crawls out from a rock and says that we owe them an apology for living in America.
What you call here a frame, Karl Popper termed a paradigm. Every community needs some paradigm for efficient communication. But if society is so fragmented and polarized, no common overarching culture, or frame, anymore exists. This effectively means that it is not a society anymore, but a conglomerate of separate thought enclaves incapable properly understand each other: balkanization of a culture. A potentially dangerous situation, and all hymns to diversity can not negate the fact that such common ground, an overarching set of rules and norms still needed.
Nov 10, 2009 - 3:18 pm 50. whiskey:My guess is that Obama, born and raised a Muslim, with the middle name of Hussein, personally intervened to stop the Hassan Investigation.
Muslims are defacto privileged to threaten violence and terrorism, and be immune from legal consequences, save when they ACTUALLY kill someone, and then they receive only minimum punishment.
This is the “Law of the Land” under Barack Hussein Obama. A law of men not of the actual laws, but laws nevertheless.
How long is this supportable?
Nov 10, 2009 - 3:36 pm 51. toad:All in all, I kind of like the word “frame”, viewpoint, world view, bubble, aren’t too bad. Pair’odime, meme, and others especially those borrowed from the hard sciences or created out of whole cloth (warning cliche tolerances are heading for redline) to make an argument sound more intelligent and can be annoying. Now the word “factions” as used” in the Federalist Papers was a good one. “Special interest” is kind of vague. That covers everything from porno fans to tort lawyers, (notice the over lap).
When a minority wants and is in the process of controlling a majority against its wishes, there can come a point where the society collapses quietly or a war starts. Can words defeat actions at the end?
Nov 10, 2009 - 3:55 pm 52. twobyfour:I remember the times when framing was used in humor.
A typical example could be:
If ONLY we had some type of GREEN technology that would absorb carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. Perhaps something solar powered that converted carbon dioxide and water to some harmless compound like, say, sugar and released oxygen.
Nowadays, there seems to be dime-a dozen jokers around.
Nov 10, 2009 - 4:14 pm 53. Josh:I was framed, I tells ya.
Nov 10, 2009 - 4:20 pm 54. oMan:ADE 47 and Sergey 49, agree. The lack of strong common frame (”do your own thing, man” and “the customer is always right”) create an opening for a particular type to take power. The type which can, with complete ease, be all things to all people. Obama was correctly analyzed during the campaign (see, I think, Shelby Steele and Thomas Sowell among others) as empty, a perfect mirror reflecting the desired solutions back to every hopeful voter. He played that role brilliantly because he is a narcissist. Who will say anything to anybody to get what he wants, who is so certain of his own perfection that he suffers no identity-crisis in lying seven ways at once. Everything human is for him just a tactical problem.
So as I see it, we had the right culture, like an agar dish, which received the right pathogen. And…bingo.
Nov 10, 2009 - 4:30 pm 55. Al_Batross:“The ongoing debate about epistemology continues” batman@46.
Holy Thesaurus, batman, you are forcing me to google words now !
Regarding your question in a previous thread about lies and Islam, an interesting overview is here:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Lying_for_Islam
The Pryce-Jones “Closed Circle” might be topped up by checking on what Robert Spencer (of jihadwatch) has written on this, unfortunately, vast subject.
Nov 10, 2009 - 4:38 pm 56. twobyfour:Your professional insights are much appreciated.
Odd, but in line with what Bezmenov predicted:
Link
In a case that raises questions about online journalism and privacy rights, the U.S. Department of Justice sent a formal request (Feb/2009) to an independent news site ordering it to provide details of all reader visits on a certain day.
The grand jury subpoena also required the Philadelphia-based Indymedia.us Web site “not to disclose the existence of this request” unless authorized by the Justice Department, a gag order that presents an unusual quandary for any news organization.
The subpoena (PDF) from U.S. Attorney Tim Morrison in Indianapolis demanded “all IP traffic to and from http://www.indymedia.us” on June 25, 2008. It instructed Clair to “include IP addresses, times, and any other identifying information,” including e-mail addresses, physical addresses, registered accounts, and Indymedia readers’ Social Security Numbers, bank account numbers, credit card numbers, and so on.
…
Morrison replied in a one-sentence letter saying the subpoena had been withdrawn. Around the same time, according to the EFF, the group had a series of discussions with assistant U.S. attorneys in Morrison’s office who threatened Clair with possible prosecution for obstruction of justice if she disclosed the existence of the already-withdrawn subpoena — claiming it “may endanger someone’s health” and would have a “human cost.”
Nov 10, 2009 - 5:14 pm 57. RWE:Whiskey #50: I doubt if he intervened personally. That is what flunkies are for. One of the worst aspects of bureaucracy is that some of them actually try to do their job. The really dangerous ones try to excel at it by being holier than Christ. The number of cases of some guy in DC or the Pentagon saying “We ought to do such and such if it makes sense.” that translate at the lower levels as “We always HAVE to do such and such every single time!” are legion.
Anton #29: If you think of all of the things that the Left say they feared most about the Patriot Act then you will also note those are the very things that would have to have been done to stop Hasan. We have no cases of anyone having their rights violated by the Patriot Act to any real effect – just a bunch of babbling idiots scared that someone will find out that they checked out Harry Potter from the library – against the Hasan terrorist massacre and the prevention of any number of other attacks.
Abuse of powers is hardly unknown with or without the Patriot Act. We still don’t know who in the Clinton Admin hired Craig Livingston and told him to go get all those files from the FBI for White House perusal. We still don’t know why so many enemies of the Clintons seem to have had an unusually difficult times with the IRS – and we have testimony from IRS officials to the effect that the agency was acting as a politically inspired hit squad. The answer is to punish those who abuse the power.
Nov 10, 2009 - 5:48 pm 58. maz2:#54 oMan said:
“Obama was correctly analyzed during the campaign (see, I think, Shelby Steele and Thomas Sowell among others) as empty, a perfect mirror reflecting the desired solutions back to every hopeful voter. He played that role brilliantly because he is a narcissist.”
This analysis* (below*) was done before the election: 8/13/2008.
*”Barack Obama – Narcissist or Merely Narcissistic?
Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. – 8/13/2008″
http://www.globalpolitician.com/25109-barack-obama-elections
Nov 10, 2009 - 5:53 pm 59. Josh:whiskey @ 50: Muslims are defacto privileged to threaten violence and terrorism, and be immune from legal consequences, save when they ACTUALLY kill someone, and then they receive only minimum punishment.
Oh, no, that’s not correct. Islam is the religion of peace. The penalty for murder is very severe, I assume, and can apparently be carried out on you, your family, friends, neighbors, and co-sectarians worldwide. It’s just killing unbelievers which has a minimum punishment, or more frequently, great praise and reward. Please correct your notes.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:00 pm 60. whiskey:Josh I stand corrected!
I wonder how long however special privileges for Muslims are supportable?
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:04 pm 61. Joshua:Sergey, #49: What you call here a frame, Karl Popper termed a paradigm. Every community needs some paradigm for efficient communication. But if society is so fragmented and polarized, no common overarching culture, or frame, anymore exists. This effectively means that it is not a society anymore, but a conglomerate of separate thought enclaves incapable properly understand each other: balkanization of a culture. A potentially dangerous situation, and all hymns to diversity can not negate the fact that such common ground, an overarching set of rules and norms still needed.
Most disturbingly of all, this balkanization is something that not even a successful revolution and overthrow of the government – even if it were possible under such circumstances – could fix. The most that throwing off the yoke would do to such a society would be to cast it into the Hobbesian state of nature, the perpetual war of all against all, for the foreseeable future. (See also the first few years of post-Communist Yugoslavia, which also turned out to be the last few years of Yugoslavia as a nation, period – literal Balkanization in this case, with a capital B.) Even that kind of fate for America might be preferable to living under the tender mercies of the progressives, but it doesn’t have anything more in common with what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:16 pm 62. Tamquam:6. cfbleachers: Let’s identify the internal enemy and let’s engage. Using OUR language. Using truth. I say we take the high ground…and today isn’t soon enough.
Silence implies agreement and consent, and where error are being propagated, becomes a form of lie. The Left has gotten where they are because they are loud, persistent, blatant and shameless, and have been enabled by the silent majority. Time and past time for We the People to call these perverse liars out and expose them relentlessly, repeatedly, ruthlessly. A time will come, I’m sure, when it will have to done with prejudice as well.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:18 pm 63. Josh:I wonder how long however special privileges for Muslims are supportable?
Sharia law, 1500 years and counting, unless ol’ hope’n'change has something in mind. Heh.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:30 pm 64. Marty:Josh @ 15 is right. What we are seeing is not frames getting in the way of seeing certain things, but predetermined narratives being rationalized by reframing the questions. We see people trying and discarding a series of frames as each in turn becomes untenable due to new information, but never re-evaluating their conclusion. They already know what they believe, no amount of evidence or logic will have any effect except to get them to adjust the rationale.
Liberals learned to do this at least as long ago as Aug. 23, 1939.
http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/nonaggression.htm
Followed, of course, by June 22, 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
Rationalizing Hasan is a piece of cake compared to what their grandparents did 1939-1941.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:38 pm 65. Marty:In case I wasn’t clear @ 64, in 1939-41 the reality to be rationalized was that Stalin was always right.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:39 pm 66. Storm-Rider:Chris Matthews: “We cannot call him (Nidal Hasan) the shooter until we have a trial.”
This is a perfect example of Orwellian (Marxist) doublethink. Nidal Hasan was the shooter based on the direct observations of many individuals at the scene of this Jihadi terrorism.
“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.” George Orwell
1. Nidal Hasan was observed to shoot American soldiers with a handgun
2. Nidal Hasan is not the shooter until we have a trial
Chris Matthews: “apparently he tried to contact al Qaeda. Is that the point at which you say, ‘This guy is dangerous?’
Yes.
Chris Matthews: “That’s not a crime to call up al Qaeda, is it? Is it?”
I don’t know, but it should be a crime – the crime of treason.
Chris Matthews: “I mean, where do you stop the guy?”
The answer is self-evident: Sometime before mass murder, not during or after. What happened to common sense? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
When you read 1984 it is clear that under Marxism widespread common sense and recognition of self-evident truth is dangerous to the State; and any individual accepting self-evident truth and exercising common sense is an enemy of the State. Chris Matthews is either a Marxist or a useful idiot for them. He doesn’t seem to be dull, so I believe it is the former.
Nov 10, 2009 - 7:54 pm 67. Storm-Rider:Brock, 9: “Chris Mathew’s points can be more easily explained by his multicultural philosophy, which refuses to judge any belief system on the merits, because the whole idea of “merits” is just more Western aggression and colonialism. He avoids have to offer an objective scale of “good/bad” at all costs.”
Under Marxist multiculturalism there is no such thing as good or bad culture, good or bad values; no such thin as good or evil. Under Marxism good = evil. More Doublethink – More Doublethink – More Doublethink.
“Communism has never concealed the fact that it rejects all absolute concepts of morality. It scoffs at any consideration of “good” and “evil” as indisputable categories. Communism considers morality to be relative, to be a class matter. Depending upon circumstances and the political situation, any act, including murder, even the killing of thousands, could be good or could be bad.” Alexander Solzhenitsyn
http://www.alor.org/Library/LegacyofTerror.htm
Here’s a good reference on Marxist Multiculturalism.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2125/print
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:20 pm 68. twobyfour:Storm-Rider/66
I’d be inclined towards a useful idiot in CM case. It is not overall idiocy, just a selective one, something similar to a professional deformation to use an analogy.
You may notice that many a lib seem to be quite erudite, which implies a degree of intelligence. However, their wiring is reminiscent of a lobotomy. Not a physical one but something is not right in their skulls. The proclivity to hold and process two contradictory concepts at the same time, without any discomfort and pain seems to point that way.
What is it that is missing there? I’d tend to believe that being unmoored morally, I’d content that their in-your-face proclaimed compassion and empathy is largely mythical. They know, deep down, that it is true that they live a lie, and the best way for them to deal with it is by substitution. The state is supposed to resolve this conundrum for them, they pay their indulgences in the form of a tax and receive the paid-for absolution. This is a reflection of their lack of moral compass, and that is the bridge missing–an abyss in structuring of their mind that provides the mechanism for their cognitive dissonance.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:32 pm 69. Storm-Rider:Habu, 11: “Because, according to Mr. Cassidy, ObamaCare serves the twin goals of “making the United States a more equitable country”
Marxism is an irrational perversion of human equality. The non-disabled poor (Proletariat class) must be forced (by Marxist government) into economic equality with the middle class regardless of their differences in effort, labor and creativity. There must irrationally be (forced) equal numbers of men’s and women’s collegiate sports teams despite the natural differences in demand for teams (title 9). Homosexual couples must have equal rights to adopt children with heterosexual married couples, despite the fact that children do better in school (and are less likely to be raped by their parents) in comparison.
This goes on and on and on – there is literally no limit to irrational, unnatural (forced) “equality” under Marxist government. Look for the words equality and equity – if equality is natural and unforced it is not Marxist. Equality under law is natural. Government-forced equality of outcome (referred to as “equity”) is Marxist. Never forget George Orwell’s Animal Farm. The goal of the animals was equality of all animals, but once the pigs (Marxist elite class) gained the power of government they became “more equal” than the other animals. Marxists love to use the words “equality” and “equity” but it is a scam; an Orwellian lie – they invariably reduce the middle class into equal serfdom with the proletariat class, and above them all looms the Marxist class of not-to-be equalized equalizers.
“The usual understanding of “equality,” when applied to people entails equality of rights and sometimes equality of opportunity. But what is meant in all these cases is the equalization of external conditions which do not touch the individuality of man. In socialist ideology, however, the understanding of equality is akin to that used in mathematics, i.e., this is in fact identity, the abolition of differences in behavior as well as in the inner world of the individuals constituting society. From this point of view, a puzzling and at first sight contradictory property of socialist doctrines becomes apparent. They proclaim the greatest possible equality, the destruction of hierarchy in society and at the same time a strict regimentation of all of life, which would be impossible without absolute control and an all-powerful bureaucracy which would engender an incomparably greater inequality.” Igor Shafarevich
http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevich/001SocialistPhenomenon.html
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:42 pm 70. Charles:There is is new sci fi on CBS Tuesday nights 8 PM EST called V that geting a lot of buzz. Episode 2 played tonight. You may have to download a viewer. This is the first week’s episode. You can view it on your computer.
http://abc.go.com/watch/v/240273/240461/pilot
This is the viewing page
http://abc.go.com/watch/v/240273/240461/pilot?cid=09_V_socialviewing_search
These are a couple of the trailers.
Trailer
Trailer
A review
Pilot Inspektor: An Advance Review of ABC’s “V”
For those of you not in the know, V, originally created by Kenneth Johnson, was a series about an alien invasion that aired on NBC during the 1984-1985 season following a successful run as two separate mini-series. Likewise, this new incarnation of V, overseen by The 4400 creator Scott Peters also tells the story of the arrival of an alien race to Earth via behemoth spacecrafts that appear out of nowhere to hover above 29 cities around the world.
Calling themselves The Visitors, their leader Anna (Firefly’s Morena Baccarin) quickly makes contact with Earth’s leaders to deliver a message (in multiple languages) proclaiming that they come in peace and, in exchange for the use of Earth’s water which they need to survive, they will provide the human population with technology, the curing of 65 different diseases, and universal health care.
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:43 pm 71. twobyfour:Storm-Rider/67
It is not that many of these people are marxists. If you told them, they may say: “Am I”?
Nov 10, 2009 - 8:43 pm 72. tharkun:They don’t know. But the gramscian poison that has been in circulation for some 60 years and damaged nearly 3 generations is hard to shake off. The goal of it was not to convert people to marxism, it was to render them plastic, a clay in the hands of true marxist, that would mold them according to his whims and desires. After all, some animals are more equal then others. The new aristocracy knows the best.
25. Morton Doodslag: Crime vs War.
I’d like to add my kudos to the others’ re: your succinct and dead-on observation:
“It is critical to understand that Muslims interpret resistance to Islam as an attack on Islam.”
In addition, I believe it is critical to understand that in Islam, the ‘Religion of Peace’, the literal definition of “peace” is the absence of resistance to Islam.
Co-incidentally, in socialist theory, the definition of peace is the absence of resistance to socialism…
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:11 pm 73. Storm-Rider:twobyfour/71
Winston Smith, in George Orwell’s 1984, functioned as a very efficient Marxist in the State mechanism. He understood that the inner Party lies were in fact lies, and he was an outer Party functionary in making the lies part of the official record. Winston Smith was self-aware in this, but he went along with the system of lies – that was his job. Others (outer Party members and proletarians) accepted the lies, using Doublethink, without actually dwelling on the irrationality of it all. Doublethink, in either case, means accepting lies for truth as a routine matter.
So, the question in my mind is whether Chris Matthews is an inner Party member (real Marxist), a knowing and colluding outer Party member (ambitious Marxist), or an unknowing and deluded outer Party member (useful idiot). He is not a Proletarian – Rednecks, Cowboys and Kulaks don’t provide him with thrills up the leg.
It is OK to substitute the word Statist for Marxist. Fascists are tantamount to Marxists as well because Marxists believe in State ownership of the individual whereas Fascists believe in State control of the individual; but control is de-facto ownership.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:14 pm 74. Charles:Genesis 16
Hagar and Ishmael
1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.”
6 “Your servant is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.
7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.
9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.”
11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:15 pm 75. exhelodrvr:his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers.”
At some point it will become very clear, to even the most anti of the anti-Bushes, that there was a fairly defined point where things started getting worse. The question is, will they be willing to do anything about it, or will they just accept the situation as “what is fair for America”? I have my doubts.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:50 pm 76. RagnarD:Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:53 pm 77. twobyfour:Storm-Rider/73
1984 describes the world where the Party’s quest for power has been completed. For time being, that is not the case here and now. The present structure is reduced to the inner members and the useful idiots. The party inner circle needs scaffolding of the outer party members to provide an interface between them and the faceless masses once it is firmly at the helm. For now, dime-a-dozen useful idiots serve their purpose well.
CM is either in the inner circle or an useful idiot, the second being more probable.
Nov 10, 2009 - 9:56 pm 78. gadfly:I picked up the dead-tree edition of my local paper tonight to read an above-the-fold front page story that the shooter had acted alone. A.J. Strata interjects the conspiracy information. So we will be lied to once again by our PC government with a secret agenda.
These black helicopter flights are becoming real concerns, folks.
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:23 pm 79. Lifeofthemind:OT
Nov 10, 2009 - 10:56 pm 80. buddy larsen:Did a long blog post on a Tea Party.
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/12861-Wisdom-from-Tom-Sowell.html
…speaking of Dr. Sowell upthread a ways –lately showing the current maladministration a wonderfully high-dudgeoned righteous wrath –
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:36 pm 81. bob from Idaho:Here is the slide show that Hasan presented to his collegues at Walter Reed in 2007, courtesy of the Washington Post.
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:46 pm 82. Mr. X:I hate to point out again Buddy but Russia is being flooded with more Afghan heroin than any other country. The front line of the chem j-had. And if there are any Westerners deliberately complicit in this (as opposed to sticking their heads in the sand), then that would be a far worse betrayal than any in the Nineties.
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:03 am 83. Dave:Bob from Idaho: Thanks for the slide show. It is not a bad presentation at all.
All humans and all human cultures do concern themselves with the hereafter. (Especially those who deny it.)
Now we are used to people who use scripture to justify doing whatever they want to do. Great example of this were those who said that since the Bible mentions slavery, it was okay to own slaves.
But how about the guy who believes that he will burn in hell forever if he does not go forth and make slaves of others?
That seems to be the great flaw of Islam. Ethical behavior is feared because it will condemn you for all eternity.
This is the sort of built-in psycho-dichotomy
that can, and seemingly does, compel some people into perpetual hostility.
In other words, Hasan told his audience why he was going to do what he did. Ain’t 20-20 hindsight wonderful.
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:23 am 84. Dave:My Dear X;
You will have to forgive Buddy. You see, he is from Texas where people are smart enough to leave heroin alone. Where all sorts of chemical dependency, especially alcoholism, has been on the decline for a couple or three decades now.
He just does not relate to a bunch of perpetually drunken Russians who are stupid enough to compound their difficulties with heroin.
As Ayn Rand noted “failure is not un-Russian, in a manner that goes deeper than politics.”
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:31 am 85. twobyfour:Dave/83
Hindsight… If I saw that presentation, it would be rather predictable where that was leading, in my mind. The other muslim doc that was there at the presentation got really scared because he did interpret it correctly. His argument with Hasan was likely his attempt to sway him from that path. There may have been two reasons why it ended there. One, he may have thought that if he reports it, it would not result in Hasan’s dismissal and he would become a target of Hasan’s wrath, and second, he may have been wary about being shunned by his own community. Possibly both factors played their part. Of course, these two factors are not, by any means, exculpatory.
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:43 am 86. ledger:It’s probably already been posted but, here is a humorous look at the MSM spinning the terror act.
Newsweek:
‘INEVITABLY, ANOTHER SOLDIER SNAPS’
Distraught pacifist conscientious objector tormented by horrors of war, as far as you know
Newsroom experts: stress, violence, stupidity, tragedy a way of life for GIs
Former M*A*S*H stars say it’s finally time to disarm the military
Hollywood insiders: Sean Penn early favorite for lead in planned Oliver Stone biopic
The Boston Globe:
‘GUN GOES ON RAMPAGE IN TEXAS’
Experts say shootings could have easily been prevented if guns did not exist; others argue bullets must share blame
Gun facts: scary, loud, shoot people
http://tinyurl.com/yzptw74
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:49 am 87. twobyfour:Dave/84
A snark several paragraphs long is still a snark.
[high five]
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:55 am 88. buddy larsen:dave, here’s your old aquaintance and/or CO, Lt. General Hal Moore, speaking on his simple list of leadership principles, at a veterans symposium on the east coast sometime last year. The things you find on You Tube –i was looking for “Waltzing Matilda” played in March Step by pipes & drums –and thar he wuz. There’s another too, look along the sidebar, see a B&W pic of him much younger –possibly on Pork Chop Hill in Korea, which he fought his way up and down –twice. The vid below, watch the last minute –he speaks of the late Mrs. in such a way –well if you’re not touched you have no heart (which we know ain’t da case!).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJo6YZTbPXg
(for those who don’t know, the Mel Gibson character in “We Were Soldiers” was this man, now a retired General at least occasionally riding the rubber chicken circuit, a long way from the Ia Drang Valley and General Giap)
***
Mr X, i wonder if the St Petersburg faction of the Kremlin –the so-called Russian Mob –has heard of this heroin problem? Golly gee whiz, they’d be terribly angry if they knew about it, as they trade strictly in contraband bubble gum and baseball trading cards, and we all know junkies don’t chew gum.
but yes, i realize you’re introducing a meme that tho it has been around hasn’t really penetrated areas of the right blogosphere very deeply. That’s a problem you are here to fix, right? What you’re hinting at, Mr. Putin introduced quite explicitly in his Beslan speech.
You and I both know the idea is to raise nationalist fervor in the south, the weak hold, and engender the notion that powerful capitalist cabals are trying to rot the polyglots one at a time, pace Georgia & Ukraine.
Knowing that the American foreign policy left –the Carter/Clinton retreadation –was all over Georgia pre-war, along with Soros, who operates inside and out Russia as well as the USA, as you know, ese birds in Georgia do give your dark hint a measure of credibility –but then that would shoot down –or would it? –the widespread belief that during the summer of 08 Soros and Putin were rather cooperant on that run on the USA markets.
As far as the USA right running Afghan heroin into mother Russia –jeez man –have you LOOKED at the American right lately? the American mob, and the Italian mob, have gone all in with the Democrats –the unions, chicago, the congressional leadership, the green movement and healthcare and carbon trading small biz money launderers to be, all are fierce partisan Democrats these days, and that party shares most of your man Putin’s initiatives (a nice way of saying they’re already taking orders from him), so unless the Sicilian Genoveses are slipping off the plantation, i rather doubt your conjecture –it don’t add up, you see.
I suppose anything is possible tho –but most likely you’re projecting USA doing to Russia what everybody and the dog knows the Russian Mob (heh heh–euphemism alert) is doing to europe and USA re drug running.
Alan Stanford for one, and likely Bernie Madoff too if he had no ‘dead letter’ stashed someplace, is singing about his Russian mob drug money laundering business partners in that Antiguan bank (and the Caribbean system order) even as we speak. Patrick Byrne of OverStock dot com has put together some Genovese and Russian mob connections quite credibly, look in at deepcapture dot com.
Afghan heroin creates a big nation-sized slug ofmoney that can go anywhere fast and do anything it wants, as it is off the grid, has no trail or custody chain, untaxed, all cash, and no gov’t has a hand in it officially. It is literally wrecking the financial systems of the nation states. Kremlin and DC working together could solve the problem –that is get the cash back into gov’t counting houses, if they wanted to.
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:02 am 89. twobyfour:Buddy, do you think… is Mr. X rather a Mr. Ks?
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:36 am 90. RWE:(Kc, that is, and he seems to have a duck feet and a duck bill, and thus he may by really утка)
I think we are dancing around the obvious, folks.
Whether it is the Russians facilitating and benefiting from cyber criminals or the Islamic “love of death,” what we have are large numbers of people who are flawed, personally, and not just in their choice of ideologies.
Some people like to inflict pain on others, to take satisfaction in the destruction of hopes and dreams. We all know of teenagers knocking over mailboxes, of people we have met who like to inflict pain. It is time to realize that certain whole peoples and cultures are made that way.
And this is not the hardness of men in combat but rather a hardness of the soul that cannot be cured. It is one thing for a B-29 pilot, following Pearl Harbor and the Battaan Death March and Kamikaze attacks to look down into the flames of a burning Tokyo and say “Who did you think you were messing with?” It is another thing for an Army doctor to suffer “Pre-tramatic stress disorder” and shoot up an Army base.
Capitalists focus on what people produce and how to produce more. Socialists focus on how much people consume and how to get them to consume less. Socialism is attractive to most of its adherents because it is an official, state-sponsored , use-of-deadly-force means of inflicting pain; so is Islam.
They make a desert and call it Peace. They make a graveyard and call it the will of Allah. They make a slum and call it an economy.
It is not simply ideology; it is pathology.
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:39 am 91. anton:RWE, I wasn’t suggesting that the Patriot Act had been abused in the past, in the right hands it provides powerful tools for protecting the land I love. In the hands of a Communist it provides too much cover for secret investigations that are aimed at real patriots. The Chicago Thugs will have few qualms about breaking arms as it is, best not to provide them with legal cover. Plus it is not like The One is ever going to use those powers to protect our country from our external enemies.
Sorry to all the Jar-heads out there for missing your birthday; Go Marines!
To all the Vets in this forum; all I can say is thanks, Thanks a Lot! There is little I can do or say to adequately thank you all but if you are ever in the Detroit metro area give me a holler and I’ll buy you a beer and a steak.
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:44 am 92. twobyfour:RWE/90
“They think they will make people… better.
But I can’t stand for that. I intend to misbehave.”
-Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:50 am 93. Lucy:Enough people haven’t died yet. When everyone personally knows someone who was killed in this man caused disaster thing (known to us as islamic jihad or the 2008 election) then the tipping point will be reached. Normal people will erupt in a conflagration of fury and action.
Nov 11, 2009 - 6:41 am 94. Wadeusaf:Frames, in a PC environment tend to multiply, and also they become disposable. Mathews was having difficulty not because his mind is ill prepared, and thoughts unorganized but because they were well prepared and organized to use frame A through H. Having to then swap to Frames I through P, and again Q through Z, while still referencing Frames A through H was the killer.
What a lie once told, must submit to daily, to become viewed as true.
Also, Thank you to all veterans living and deceased, who helped secure individual liberty for all men who yearn to live free.
Nov 11, 2009 - 7:30 am 95. B'ham:Based on the various sub-themes in the comments, it appears that this particular frame expanded, and that is likely the case in any attempt to frame a situation.
Missing from the comments is any discussion of the military concerns of “unit cohesion” and discipline. Graduates of left leaning law schools that no longer teach the organic laws of the US–“The Four Pillars of Constitutionalism”, as Prof. Richard Cox describes them—infest the JAG directorates of our military. We apparently have a “living” UCMJ, just as we have a “living” constitution. Relativism has become commonplace. Hasan had an “attitude” that was contrary to the unit cohesion and discipline. “Attitudes” should have not have been tolerated in the military once the draft was abolished. Had that been the case, Hasan would have been long gone, even as a member of the not-so-military medical corps.
Nov 11, 2009 - 7:45 am 96. peterike:@71, twobyfour: The goal of it was not to convert people to marxism, it was to render them plastic, a clay in the hands of true marxist, that would mold them according to his whims and desires. After all, some animals are more equal then others. The new aristocracy knows the best.
Or as the late James Burnham had it, “The difference between a Communist and a Liberal is that the Communist knows what he’s doing.”
In this formulation, I think the vast majority of Leftists fit into the “Liberal” camp, by which I mean they don’t understand what they’re about. They’ve bought so deeply into their own ego-gratification syndrome that they really do think what they are doing is somehow good for the world. Their notion of “good for the world” nearly always ends up putting the screws to white, middle-class Americans, especially males (pace Whiskey).But they’ve also convinced themselves that these people, the very backbone of everything the affluent Left has today, are the source of all evil.
It all makes a sick kind of sense. Certainly, it does if you accept their premises about reality. Susan Sontag nailed it for all time with her remark that “The white race is the cancer of human history.” Rarely are Leftists so bold as to state what they really think in such bald terms as that. But if that mindset doesn’t underline everything Obama does and thinks, then I’m a jackrabbit.
And the thing about Sontag is that she didn’t speak out of ignorance of what white’s have achieved. The full quote is even more telling.
Mozart, Pascal, Boolean algebra, Shakespeare, parliamentary government, baroque churches, Newton, the emancipation of women, Kant, Balanchine ballets, et al. don’t redeem what this particular civilization has wrought upon the world. The white race is the cancer of human history.
Amazing, no? And she refused to retract the statement (other than to note with typical Leftist snark that the remark was insensitive to cancer patients).
The Left really is on a mission of hate and destruction, including self-destruction. So is it any wonder they cuddle up so easily to Islam? They are both going about the Devil’s work.
Nov 11, 2009 - 8:00 am 97. Storm-Rider:B’ham/95: “We apparently have a “living” UCMJ, just as we have a “living” constitution.”
What Islam and Marxism have in common is the idea of arbitrary law; law which can be made up on the spot (by the clever pigs of Animal Farm for example) when the need arises. This is the true meaning of “Living Constitution.” In reality, as an example of newspeak, “Living Constitution” means “Dead Constitution;” it means “Arbitrary Constitution;” law which derives from arbitrary decisions made by a non-religious (unless one considers Marxism a religious faith) Marxist oligarchy. Sharia Law is similarly based on arbitrary decision making by an elite oligarchy of religious individuals.
“Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure (Marxist Living Constitution & Islamic Sharia Law).” Thomas Jefferson
The bottom line is that under Marxism and Islam there is no law; one has the law of the jungle; and the respective oligarchies are the lions of criminal government.
“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second (criminal government) down with the chains of the (actual) constitution so the second (criminal government) will not become the legalized version of the first (criminals).” Thomas Jefferson
Nov 11, 2009 - 8:08 am 98. Josh:watching POTUS on Fox at the opening of the Veterans Day ceremony, band playing the Star Spangled Banner, and POTUS looking boooored already.
Nov 11, 2009 - 9:04 am 99. buddy larsen:96 & 97, you guyz is layin down some track –three cheers f’r ye
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:26 am 100. exhelodrvr:“That’s not a crime to call up al Qaeda, is it? ”
I wonder how many on the left did that, particularly while Pres Bush was in office? Does the left really want contacts with Al Queda to be investigated?
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:35 am 101. buckets:TwobyFour, great quote, Serenity has been on cable all this week. I will slightly correct your quote to “I aim to misbehave.” Sounds much cooler.
And Wretchard’s lawyer doesn’t sound like much of a lawyer. As others have pointed out already, the introduction of “potential hypothetical” evidence doesn’t fly in the criminal law system.
Thank you, veterans.
(Even Google got into the act this year – it’s “OK” to be patriotic again!)
Nov 11, 2009 - 12:34 pm 102. Subotai Bahadur:#100 exhelodrvr
I would not be surprised at all if the Left’s opposition to the Patriot Act was based primarily on their fear that a number of their official, unofficial, and elected leaders would be on phone lists of those in direct communication and coordination with Al Quada. Remember how they went absolutely stark, raving, maniac crazy over the fact that we were monitoring phones that were listed as American contacts on captured Al Quada computer files? That level of outrage was anomalous, and sufficient to trigger the instincts of any investigator. But we “can’t question their patriotism”.
Given that Congressional Democrats tried to run their own illegal negotiations and foreign policy when dealing with Communist Russia during the Cold War, North Vietnam during Vietnam War, Iraq in the run up to both Gulf Wars, Nicaragua during the first Ortega dictatorship, and in Grenada during the run up to the seizing of American students as hostages during the Communist coup there; the fact of Democrats working actively with Al Quada would not be unexpected and indeed fit in very well with their past documented habits. It would also explain many of their actions since 9/11.
Subotai Bahadur
Nov 11, 2009 - 2:57 pm 103. Mr. X:Soros was in on the ground floor with some of the oligarchs in early Nineties. Beyond that I’m not going to say much more, except if you look at the Wikipedia page of Ru-net you’ll see that Soros supposedly funded the first Internet connection to the USSR from the USA in 1984. Isn’t that special? You guys all seem to believe that every oligarch, even if he’s buying the New Jersey Nets, must be taking dark orders from you know who, pulling the strings of all. Well then, what’s to say that Soros as an Anglo-American oligarch hasn’t himself been a front for certain…um…influences on Georgia and Ukraine? I think you see where I’m going with this.
Nov 11, 2009 - 3:04 pm 104. buddy larsen:MX/103; one quick answer to the question in your penultimate sentence is that Soros is so deeply involved in the still-sorting-out privatization of USSR assets –please search combos of [ chernomyrdin gore soros ] and see the enormous body of info available for any number of prosecutions if these guys weren’t untouchable –and in such an exposed international swindler with no ‘blood and soil’ affinity with the otherwise-offendable natives of his nation-of-record, that unless he was serving you-know-who –and really, under YKW’s protection –that he’d've otherwise long since been pushing up polonium daisies.
If you’d rather not slog through the various learned reports that will fall out of a search, just take a look at this mid-2007 Slate article –or if that too is beyond your time and/or interest available, then just skip to the last third or so of it.
You’ll see that the guy works both side; you’ll see that his autoinsertions into oligarch swindles and assorted rapine of the russian people is too long-lived (he held GKOs –the defaulted bonds of 98 –as far back as initial issue) and operates at far too high a level for him to be anything other than an associate, agent, stalking horse, ally, or partner of YKW (why, he might even buy into –with the cred loan cooperation of such as the oft-punk’d useful idiot likes of Bryzenski, Albright, Holbrooke, Kerry, et al –the inner circle of a neighboring Capital and help cue up a war, timed to kick off with the Beijing Olympics and an induced oil price and naked short trading panic just prior to an election wherein a Democrat sweep of WHouse & both viets of congress might FINALLY kill that accursed Dollar personal nemesis & bete noir of Putin and Soros both).
Why couldn’t that work the other way around, with Putin the patsy? well, it could, except that it doesn’t. Look around –do political enemies of american presidents get bumped off –or merely prosecuted? No, USA is too PC these days (unless the target is sith lord Cheney, thru his staff) for anyone on this side to metaphorically or no throw his scabrous old ass off a skyscraper, and since this finikyness is so immanently unshared by the KGB counterparty, it don’t take much of a deep thinker to savvy wazzup wi Soros and his young-pioneer red-guard barking-moonbat regimented covens.
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:09 pm 105. Geeze Louise:From the Slate link @104:
The speculators schemed with Gore to bail out the international financiers, who stood to lose their shirts in the looming Russian default (the Russians had just frozen payments on the GKOs); they included George Soros, John Tisch, Steven Rattner, Lionel Pincus, Maurice Greenberg, Orin Kraemer, and David Shaw.
Is that Maurice Raymond “Hank” Greenberg of AIG?
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:40 pm 106. buddy larsen:GL/105; AIG has long made a market in counterparty default insurance –in different, less risky forms than the CDS trash we got today –so i’m sure AIG was caught at risk when a large nation defaulted on sovereign debt.
Nov 11, 2009 - 5:49 pm 107. Geeze Louise:Well, one way or another, it’s a small incestuous community:
From http://riskinstitute.ch/146490.htm:
According to Lewis’s article LTCM’s portfolio had its second biggest loss that day, of $500 million. Half of that, says Lewis, was lost on a short position in five-year equity options. Lewis records brokers’ opinion that AIG had intervened in thin markets to drive up the option price to profit from LTCM’s weakness. At that time, as was learned later, AIG was part of a consortium negotiating to buy LTCM’s portfolio. By this time LTCM’s capital base had dwindled to a mere $600 million. That evening, UBS, with its particular exposure on a $800 million credit, with $266 million invested as a hedge, sent a team to Greenwich to study the portfolio.
Nov 11, 2009 - 6:10 pm 108. buddy larsen:GL/107; it’s a small incestuous community –exactly the problem with everything that’s wrong in the financial world. “Too Big to Fail” is the antithesis of the system we’re still thinking we’ve got.
Nov 11, 2009 - 9:22 pm 109. marymcl:I hope Mr X sticks around because buddy’s responses are priceless
Nov 11, 2009 - 9:58 pm 110. buddy larsen:Mm, ya doll ya! but i think he got angry on the adjoining thread. or maybe he wasn’t angry but i really AM an idiot. i just find it hard to take seriously any David and Goliath story where an unprovoked but just adventerous David charges into the Philadelphians’ home country and throws himself on Goliath’s sword just for the helluvit.
hell, why does Boxing have weight divisions?
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:45 pm 111. Lifeofthemind:buddy larsen,
Nov 12, 2009 - 12:25 am 112. Mr. X:Those Yorkshire terriers keep trying to beat up my Belgian Sheepdog.
Guess I’ll have to check the beast for Russian sympathies.
I’m glad to get at least some response rather than the dumb wall of denial about Soros activities abroad that most conservative sheeple in Washington maintain, such a silence that it provokes suspicion, as if the WSJ, Economist and NRO all know better than to touch him even if they criticize his domestic funding of the Left. If people do start criticizing Soros’ USG associated or encouraged activities outside of the offices of the American Conservative, they might get a phone call from either Foggy Bottom or somewhere in VA.
Such spectacular bets as his bringing down the Pound (which lots of UK euroskeptics thinks was designed to force Britain into the EMU precursor to the Euro) are not possible without insider information from governments. It’s the same reason Government Sachs came out smelling like a rose when the rest of the Street tanked. Matt Tabi made this point in Rolling Stone (how RS became the voice of the muckrackers against Big Finance raping and pillaging the rest of the economy is itself an interesting question), had the short selling naked bets gone the other way it would have been the worst short sell losses in human history. Instead magically the bets against Bear Stearns were made to pay off.
All I’m suggesting is that perhaps such insider tips to Soros are payment for services he has rendered in Eastern Europe to Uncle Sam and the City of London. Hell, Ukraine is rapidly becoming one of the highest debt to GDP ratios in the world and is paying their gas bills with IOUs. What that means is that they’ll have to sell off all their steel mills or what’s left of them that required cheap Russian gas to stay profitable just to keep the lights on and the frost out this winter. Ditto for Belarus, how has Lukashenko suddenly become more democratic? Yet the EU wants to lend him $12 BILLION and in the past two years suddenly he’s yet another victim of Russian “energy imperialism” in the Russophobe press. My point is, don’t be so easily manipulated.
Nov 12, 2009 - 3:15 am 113. Marie claude:“Those Yorkshire terriers keep trying to beat up my Belgian Sheepdog.
Guess I’ll have to check the beast for Russian sympathies.”
uh, try a Leonberg, they are mediators
otherwise, my little Boston-Terrier, “Rock-Star” (a female), can handle any sheepdogs into respect !
uh, Mr X,
Yet the EU wants to lend him $12 BILLION and in the past two years suddenly he’s yet another victim of Russian “energy imperialism” in the Russophobe press
Yeah, I don’t want that my taxes are for subventionning any former soviet counties, that would still not acknoledge that they are living on the european continent, and would spit on the earlier EU countries, becuz they are monotored for the american dream, which actually is the american nightmare since a few decades !
Nov 12, 2009 - 7:27 am 114. Gaffe Prices:I have a question. Or bunch of questions.
What is the model for how policy for various government agencies are determined from outside of that organization? And my question gets to all parasitic, and in fact reverse parasitic forces. Parasites usually take from the host organism, but for example, if a military officer made the decision to ‘go diversity’ as the über-policy of the military, on whose command decision was that based, or from what outside influence or pressure did that occur?
One would’ve hoped that the military could preserve its merit rise system, but it is apparent that that has been infiltrated by whatever means. How do we start from scratch again, and remove all the barnacles?
Nov 12, 2009 - 1:58 pm 115. Mr. X:“Why couldn’t that work the other way around, with Putin the patsy? well, it could, except that it doesn’t.”
Then why did Soros admit to partially funding the Orange Revolution? Did he get orders from Vladimir Vladimirovich to do that? Your argument against presuming based on the evidence that Soros is a tool of at least some parts of the USG (or at least is a transnationalist who would prefer to see a weaker U.S. AND Russia) makes no sense. Foggy Bottom seems to be a more likely suspect, or more like the iron triangle between State, Defense and the NGO ‘revolutions in a box’ complex. Personally, I think if those folks hadn’t been so blatant in the ex-Soviet republics they might have had better success with the Green revolution in Iran.
“but you haven’t been arguing at all –with or without idiots.”
Yeah, refuting your point that the 5th Guards Shock Army or whatever still exists as it did when it stood on the Fulda Gap in the 1980s and that Russia invaded Georgia with hundreds of thousands of soldiers isn’t an argument. Riiiiiiiiight. I guess that’s what your fan club loved. Yeah Buddy, tell that punk kid! Quote him chapter and verse from Red Storm Rising…hoorah!
I for one admire Marie Claude for rebutting the lazy Francophobia that lurks on PJM. The fact that somebody decided to say that 90% of what Anglo-American “conservatives” write about Russia is utter horses$#& seems to annoy you guys. But yes, it is possible to be a conservative and admire some aspects of Russia and its people rather than needing my daily dose of the Russians are coming two minutes hate and/or BS Kremlinology.
The fact that the ultra-Orthodox nationalist Stanislav Mishin is being advanced nowadays as the voice of Russian propaganda at America (did you catch him on Glenn Beck?) and Igor Panarin is getting paid to speak to Tea Partyers in Houston ought to tell you something. Russia is not the voice of international Communism anymore, so give it a rest.
Nov 12, 2009 - 2:32 pmSorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.