179 Comments

1. tommy:

Reports are circulating now that Maj Hasan lived simply in a threadbare apartment. There is indication that a goodly portion of his salary went to Pakistan. Interesting connection – but maybe it was to “humanitarian” organizations.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:35 pm 2. always right:

This is DC at its ugliest. Politicking as usual. From our elected officials and beltway insiders, empty-headed punditry.

I don’t know Hoekstra and if he is also playing games with ordinary citizens lives. But notice the great length administration goes to to circle the wagan.

Masking/dwarfing out genuine work from honest folks.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:36 pm 3. wretchard:

Sometimes I think politicians the world over are in it primarily for themselves and all the public can do is sail along with an official who happens to be going their way. It’s like a hobo riding the rails or a hitch hiker trying to get out of the Galaxy. Maybe we’ll eventually get somewhere but if not, been nice watching the show.

In my more despairing moments I think we’re playing at rigged table and I don’t know why one should stick around to observe the proceedings. Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:39 pm 4. MTL:

Apropos the previous discussion regarding the timeline of the termination of Hasan’s investigation- that authorities had been pursuing Hasan until January 2009 because of his contact with terrorists, then stopped around the same time that the new administration came online. If this tragedy is going to be turned into political kabuki, knowing the state of the investigation and why it was stopped would be interesting.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:42 pm 5. whiskey:

John McCain is a bellweather. No pol has been more finger-in-the-wind than McCain. No one more PC. No one more multiculti. Yet McCain is criticizing PC and diversity for creating the Fort Hood Jihad — by not kicking Hassan out of the Army and into Leavenworth for communicating with AQ.

If MCCAIN is saying this, the polling must be off the charts. There is an opportunity here. Obama and Dems WELCOME Jihad because they have the same enemies as Jihadis do — America and the majority population and institutions. Meanwhile, most Americans don’t want to get shot or blown up to satisfy diversity and pc and multiculturalism.

So whoever can ride the public wave of anger can go far. Far in fundraising. Far in political profile. Far in power.

It is quite likely that Obama intervened, perhaps personally, to keep Hassan in the service and his communication with Jihad “protected” because as Obama said, he would stand with the Muslims.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:52 pm 6. data schlepper:

WWSHD?

What would Sherlock Holmes do?

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:53 pm 7. always right:

to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing

Sometimes I think politicians (and esp. this admin) are purposedly pushing Ameicans to see what extend we will put up with.

I still haven’t figure out the ’signals’ yet, at what point the public will have completely lost faith in authority (any authority).

But I can see the simmering anger getting stronger day by day.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:01 pm 8. wretchard:

What would Sherlock Holmes do?

Go over the Reichenbach falls with Moriarty. But I don’t know whether politicians are willing to do that.

Now it has occurred to me that the reasons they’re so determined not to hang the terrorism rap on Hasan is because they are unsure who will connected to him. A public figure might be seriously embarassed at being an unwitting enabler of a murder, but it would be politically more damaging if the case were terrorism. So the incentive is to cast this as a murder, not for Hasan’s sake, but for whoever Hasan will drag down.

The awkwardness with which this is being handled, the delays and so forth, are really latencies caused by having to check to see who is going to get involved before releasing any information. It’s like a man parsing his words: full of ‘ums’ and ‘ers’ and ‘uhs’. Heck we should be used to it by now.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:07 pm 9. sol vason:

If one believes there is a war on terror, then the best thing to do would be to send Hassan to Guantanamo as an enemy combatant. Find out who the members of his cell are. And everything else he knows. Keep him there until a peace treaty is signed then return him. In the meantime, Obama should rescind Clinton’s order disarming the military on their own bases. It is a sad commentary on Obama that our soldiers and sailors are safer in a war zone than they are on their home base here in America.

However Obama will never do these things.

Obama and the liberals know there are no terrorists, only people who have been driven crazy by Israeli occupation of Arabia. Therefore, this is not an act of war — it is an incomprehensible crime committed by a man driven to madness by something or other.

He may not be fit for trial and no one in the military or government should discuss his case until when and if he has a trial and the jury has delivered its verdict and the appeals have been heard. For example, did anyone read him his rights before shooting him? Was any attempt made to negotiate? There are a great many procedural issues that cry out for litigation.

As for Afghanistan, Obama plans to find the Afgnan government unworthy. He will then declare a Moral Victory and pull out. Congress will then cut off military aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan but will continue to offer free condoms.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:10 pm 10. cannonbeer:

Picked this insight up today from a local talk show: this is what comes of treating this as a “crime” with all of its slow and ponderous attention to due process, rather than the quicker alerting elements of terrorist infiltration. Our CinC is disassembling everything that Bush and Cheney put into effect to keep us safe. And when the process fails, well, we don’t have to hear about it, do we? This is not the terrorist act you are looking for…
If only I were wrong.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:12 pm 11. Don Rodrigo:

to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing

Beer, Wretchard. It’s BEER and fishing. Whiskey (the spirit, not our fellow poster) goes with poker

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:14 pm 12. JMH:

It may be fair to say that the Fort Hood event is now rapidly becoming a political issue…”

I think that given the circumstances, it was inevitable this would become a political issue, and I also think it becoming a political issue is profoundly damaging to the political class, regardless of what info the investigation turns up.

This case isn’t terribly complicated, and everybody can see that. Loner and social loser goes to radical mosque and turns Jihadi. Chicken***t REMFs in chain of command ignore abundant warning signs for fear of “diversity” backlash. Disaster occurs, with heroic efforts by those on-scene keeping it from being even worse. You don’t have to go into a lot of nuance and shades of grey here.

Dithering and obfuscating about this will piss people off.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:15 pm 13. SpeakEasy:

And coincidentally, the prez is off to Asia, far from the inquiring media (well those who would actually inquire- Fox and the Tabloids). As soon as I heard the investigation had been called to a halt I immediately thought of Barack Obama. Better start checking the Democrat’s socks for documents ’cause a cover-up is a comin’. Could there be an impeachable finding? Christmas may come early this year! (Oh, please,please,please…. )

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:26 pm 14. herb:

Bush43 did this too. Nobody is willing to say that there is a percentage of the islams greater than zero that would happily kill every last one of us. Nobody will say that that percentage is a non-trivial number. Nobody will say that the percentage of islams who will help/hide/ignore or passively support the first percentage is far too large to contemplate. I just guess we wait ’til we get the light thats brighter-than-a-thousand-suns downtown.

But then the pols will ascribe it to too much sugar in their diet, because you see, they’re not used to such rich food.

Wretch- are you thinking On the Beach?

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:37 pm 15. Lifeofthemind:

wretchard,
It’s like a hobo riding the rails or a hitch hiker trying to get out of the Galaxy.

“So long and thanks for all the fish.”

But in his better moments Douglas Adams could also be seen as channeling Hal Moore.
“Don’t Panic” equates to the General’s “Do one thing more.”

Is Hoekstra probably attempting to leak an investigation in progress? Sure he is and given how the Democrats worked to destroy the Republicans they know how it works. Just ask Scooter Libby. The difference is that it is much harder for the Republicans to find anyone to leak to.

I would link this issue to the looming purge of the Civil Service I raised in my #107 on the last thread. The Democrats are going for the kill, chocking off opposition access to the Media the Courts and the Administration.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:38 pm 16. dan:

Sleeper.

Sleeper a Major in the US Army. Uncomfortable flashes of Senator McCarthy exploding up the Legislative spine. The hallmark of global stability the stability of the US body politic. “We shall have no crisis provoked here.” And yet – sleeper a Major in the US Army. Betcha $5.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:38 pm 17. Mark:

Having watched Rep. Hoekstra on C-SPAN many times, I trust his judgement and sense of protocol. If he is speaking out, he’s ticked at the response he’s getting. Congresspersons are used to getting responses from agencies when they ask. The problem with having czars is that the buck doesn’t always stop with the cabinet officer or agency. The lines or responsibility are getting blurred, which is probably just what the administration wants.

The fearless press will ferret out the truth, fear not.

“Beer, Wretchard. It’s BEER and fishing.”

I saw in a press release that there was recent Australian legislation that would limit race car fans to consuming no more than one case of beer per day. I’m not sure whether the case was of the small can or big can variety.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:42 pm 18. PA Cat:

13 Christmas may come early this year! (Oh, please,please,please…. )

I take it you aren’t thinking of Pelosi’s “Christmas present” for the American people. (Interesting that she forgot her PC etiquette: it should be “holiday gift,” of course.)

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:43 pm 19. Doug:

Obama Administration Intends to Purge Republicans From the Civil Service

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:44 pm 20. herb:

Those of us who are hoping for an impeachment should file that right up there with the indictment of Harry Reid. Simply Not Going To Happen.

This boy is going to be with us for at least one term and possibly two (unless he’s up close to the light mentioned above.) You also need to look at the spares. In order: Biden, Pelosi, Grand Dragon Robt Byrd, Hillary, Timmy Geithner. Oh! we’re in the very best of hands.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:46 pm 21. SpeakEasy:

Sol, I would think his standing as a commissioned officer would be a faster path to the firing squad- at least I hope so. The military should try him, convict him and shoot him. The other agencies can have him after that.

I know of no order Clinton gave to disarm troops on bases on US soil. It has been that way for all 23 years of my service. As I mentioned here before, this is the correct way to go. Garrison is not the place for bored, drunk, young (foolish) troops to have loaded weapons. In a war zone they do but, 1)there is no alcohol 2) they are busy fighting or training to fight and 3) even with that, there have been incidents of needless fratricide (heard of the “do you trust me game” some idiots played in the ME?)

I do detect some sarcasm but wanted to set some things straight.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:50 pm 22. Morton Doodslag:

I don’t usually subscribe to conspiracy theories, but the ongoing whitewashing of Islam by both the major parties coupled with the media obfuscations and apologetics convince me that there are mega-financial Muslim puppeteers pulling the strings…

The Saudi King or a small coterie of viziers who advise him are in complete control of more than a $ trillion with virtually no checks and balances. In essence, the scabrous Saudi monarch is de facto the world’s first Trillionaire. As an evil syndicate run by a Godfather or crime family, the leverage which such filth may exert on our Presidents, media owners, and the Congress may truly be immense. Is America at this point in time simply a bought and paid lacky of the Islamic Filth who control the Middle East? All the empirical signs point in this direction, and this includes virtually every coward in our Congress, every President, present (especially) and for the last 20 years, and most media conglomerates. Just sayin.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:53 pm 23. SpeakEasy:

herb, I thought of the chain of command- Biden IMHO is the perfect Gerald Ford for the times- Too clueless to be any real danger and a virtual guarantee of a Republican victory in 2012. Plus if this miracle could actually occur, the sitting administration would not have enough political capital to declare National Dog Catcher’s Day. Hey, I can dream.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:57 pm 24. Roughcoat:

Obama may yet prove to be the Salvador Allende of the United States. In certain respects he already is.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:00 pm 25. Harry MacD:

I’m sure if the shoe were on the other political foot that the Democrats would exhibit perfect statesmanship and refrain utterly from exploiting the incident for political gain.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:01 pm 26. Whitehall:

If I were willing to give our government the benefit of the doubt, I’d say that the intelligence people were happy to let the Major lead them to bigger prey. I could see a reasonable determination that the risk of him “activating” unannounced was out-weighed by the possible new leads he could offer.

So they bet wrong. 13 soldiers died. Things do go wrong in the real world. It wasn’t Antietam.

On the other hand, all sorts of shading dealings could await a determined investigator looking for damaging political material.

I will suspend judgment for now.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:04 pm 27. Josh:

w: Now it has occurred to me that the reasons they’re so determined not to hang the terrorism rap on Hasan is …

et tu, wretchard?

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:07 pm 28. Knight1:

AP just reported the Feds moving to seize four mosques in the U.S. with linkages to Iran –

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091112/ap_on_re_us/us_mosque_forfeiture

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:12 pm 29. SpeakEasy:

Whitehall, That is a bit cavalier regarding the lives of our troops and I hope you did not mean it to be. Even if they wanted to “keep him in play as an asset” they should, and likely would, have had tighter control on his movements and could have averted the massacre when he came out of his house armed for jihad. I predict he bought the weapons not too far from his attack and would have been a red flag for anyone watching. Nope, too far of a stretch for me on your line of reasoning. I am willing to concede the possibility coupled with monumental stupidity.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:14 pm 30. Belmont Club » The politics of detection « Noya Khobor:

[...] [...]

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:25 pm 31. Doug:

Allen said…
ABC News claims to have Major Hasan’s personnel file

Somebody has an ax to grind.
—
On Hasan’s official Army personnel record, obtained by ABCNews.com., Hasan lists his e-mail address using the first name of Abduwall, instead of Nidal. Abduwalli, in Arabic, means “slave of” the great protector, or God.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:34 pm 32. Marcus Aurelius:

Rachel Maddow’s screech about Hoekstra is interesting.

Years ago after the USS Cole bombing National Review ran an article — I can not recall the year nor the author, perhaps I’ll attempt to dig it up this evening.

The theme of the article was to call the USS Cole attack an act of terrorism and to dismiss the attackers as cowards is foolish. The author wanted people to use words from the genre of war to describe such events. After all, the jihadis who bombed the USS Cole use the language and in fact attacked a warship.

Now, of course, we are fighting a battle to get the Ft. Hood @$$#073 elevated from simple murderer to terrorist — I guess to ask to use the proper language is too far a reach. After all, the guy attacked a military base deep in US territory. So, I fear words & phrases such as “act of war”, treason, terrorism, etc are going to be off limits in the news, from Democrat talking points and statements, and from the administration, even in the event it is found out (and released or not) he was acting on the direct order of Osama bin Laden.

Whiskey and fishing go together, usually it is not in the boat — that is beer, but afterwards sitting with a glass of bourbon and a nice fat stoggy (cut with the chop http://bloggerbeer.blogspot.com/2005/03/last-bit_22.html or table saw http://bloggerbeer.blogspot.com/2007/06/cigar-cutting.html) is heaven.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:34 pm 33. Enscout:

Let’s just hope Hoekstra plays this to maximum effect. This may be a huge opportunity to knock out some of the ‘useful idiots’ behind the scenes at CIA & FBI that were looking at Hasan.
I just hope the good Congressman has the patience an wherewithall to gather the evidence that will be necessary to assure this never happens again in our military. Opportunities to turn the tide like this don’t come along often.
It doesn’t look so promising at this point. Somebody needs to get to him, remind him of his duty and shut him the hell up.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:36 pm 34. Whitehall:

Speakeasy,

Don’t mean to undermine the gravity of the tragic loss of life but there is a war on and casualties happen. People fighting this war have to put peoples’ lives at risk to achieve the mission. Someone reasoned that the major was a low risk person. they were wrong and I could accept that admission. There was little sense or strategic purpose to it.

Even if the major was under electronic surveillance, I doubt that he was deemed worthy of physical trailing in Ft. Hood.

I agree that ordinary failure to predict the future is the likely cause. I doubt even the major was completely committed to this act many days prior to the event.

Yet the fact that he showed signs long before and was allowed to stay in the Army seems to call for greater scrutiny of our people, even for medicos with no direct weapon or intelligence interface.

There is more to the story and argument both directions.

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:49 pm 35. Doug:

The Facts About Clinton and Terrorism
– Marcus

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:55 pm 36. F:

W: “Sometimes I think politicians the world over are in it primarily for themselves. . .”

Ya think?

F

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:58 pm 37. Marcus Aurelius:

Whitehall 34,

For every one of those attacks that makes a big splash it sets off a squabble driving a wedge deeper between the left & the right as we see is happening right now. The attack is serious enough it gets serious notice, but not serious enough to make people think it serious.

In addition, it causes people to be more distrustful of honest Muslims (and YES I do believe most just want to left alone to grow & prosper). I have good relations with a Pakistani fellow in town here (don’t see each other all that often owns/runs our former neighborhood’s mini-mart) but all of this stuff has put a bug in my head about him. I don’t know if that was Hassan’s intent (I think it was just to kill as many soldiers as possible) but that is a real effect.

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:04 pm 38. herb:

I heard (I think Kristol) on the TV tonite say that this imam had released a widespread email pointing out that this could be a model for hitting small soft targets. If so we may not get the light but a series of bloody incidents in malls and grocery stores and fairs and concerts.

As they occur, I will wager that those perps who are converts will have been coached to use their birth names, because allah will know them anyway. The linkage between the ‘lone crazed gunman’ and islam will be blurred. …..and they go after the guns, which everybody agrees is the one true evil.

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:22 pm 39. Annoy Mouse:

“Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.”

Life is too short. This is always a rational thing!

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:22 pm 40. Mal:

Have you read this first hand account of the slaughter at Ft. Hood.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2383016/posts

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:38 pm 41. sirius_sir:

Fox News is reporting tonight that the Feds have moved to seize four mosques on the charge that they have been sending money to Iran–presumbably to fund the regime’s nuclear ambitions. If true, the politics of detection have become suddenly very interesting and, it would seem from my perspective, suddenly much improved.

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:50 pm 42. sirius_sir:

“presumbably”–presuming in a babbling manner

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:53 pm 43. Josh:

presumbably – combination of probo-bably and presum-aloompa

Nov 12, 2009 - 6:54 pm 44. maz2:

Muslim travels cross-border with “nearly $1-million in gold coins from the Canadian mint.*”
Maybe he’s been turned?
…-

“Flight instructor released after month in custody

A Saudi-born flight instructor who was stopped at the Canadian border with nearly $1-million in his van has been released after more than a month in custody.

Khaled Nawaya had a permanent residence visa and was planning to move to British Columbia when guards at the Douglas border crossing discovered nearly $1-million in gold coins from the Canadian mint. They also found a ring bearing the logo of Hezbollah, a Lebanon-based Islamist organization, some 9/11 videos and a scarf depicting two former U.S. and Israeli leaders as monkey.

An Immigration and Refugee Board adjudicator released Mr. Nawaya on the condition that he provide documentation on the source of his money. Mr. Nawaya said most of the money came from a lawsuit he won in the United States where he has lived since 1993.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/flight-instructor-released-after-month-in-custody/article1361444/
…-

“*Mint says missing gold may have been stolen

Last Updated: Monday, June 29, 2009 | 6:25 PM ET
CBC News

Christine Aquino, the director of communications for the Royal Canadian Mint, said it’s possible that the millions of dollars worth of gold missing from the mint could have been stolen.Christine Aquino, the director of communications for the Royal Canadian Mint, said it’s possible that the millions of dollars worth of gold missing from the mint could have been stolen. (Jeff Semple/CBC)

The Royal Canadian Mint said Monday that $15.3 million worth of gold missing from its vaults could have been stolen.

The gold was reported missing last fall, but officials at the mint said they had hoped they would find that an accounting error was responsible.”
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/06/29/ottawa-mint-gold-missing.html?ref=rss

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:02 pm 45. marymcl:

He’s been charged – 13 counts premeditated murder

~ Hasan will be tried in the military’s court-martial system. Prosecutors will likely seek the death penalty, the maximum sentence he faces. The minimum is life in prison.” ~

http://tinyurl.com/yhneaxj

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:31 pm 46. Doc99:

How many other Nidal Hassans are shuffling toward Texas to be born?

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:49 pm 47. Rock:

“Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.”

I read somewhere once that God would not deduct from man his time spent fishing. Were that but true.

Fishing from the bank with a bottle of Wild Turkey and an old yeller dog by your side would be the end of a perfect day. At least for a few moments I could forget the crisis we’re in.

If Maj Hasan is charged with a hate crime too, does that mean he will get to spend extra time in hell?

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:56 pm 48. wws:

Whitehall, I don’t doubt that someone made a conscious decision to let Hasan go on his way unmolested (and to eventually run amuck) but I see nothing that would lead me to believe that this was an honest attempt to gather more intelligence that went wrong.

In fact, every piece of evidence we have (and we have more than you may think) suggests something quite different. Look at how much information we had on Hasan, and how quickly it has been leaked out. This was not some unknown actor – there was an astonishing amount of detail that came out very quickly, yet in a normal case this should have taken quite some time to compile. And yet it was already all together. And think about how his personal file has just been leaked. I suggest that intelligence services were watching him and KNEW he was dangerous and that they wanted to act – and that they were then ordered to stand down and leave him be early this year, not so coincidentally at the same time as this new administration took power.
Why this administration ordered them to stand down is open to speculation – but they were ordered to stand down.

So, they followed their orders, did what they were told, and let him go on. But they held on to all of the incriminating evidence, and I believe someone (or maybe several someones) *knew* that Hasan was going to go off sometime and was (were) incredibly frustrated that they could do nothing official about it.

That is who is now actively orchestrating this “leak” campaign to embarrass and damage the forces that called them off this case. The problem for the administration is that if they out them, then they can say publicly that they were ordered to let Hasan go, even though they knew he was going to kill innocent Americans. Of course the administration won’t risk that, and so they can force the administration to suffer the death of a thousand cuts as they continually leak all of the damaging info they have to the press.

And I’m sure they know, as Andy Breitbart just proved, that the damage is far more debilitating if the papers and stories are leaked out bit by bit, detail by detail, just the thing to keep it on the top of the news for days and weeks.

Whoever is doing this leaking is seeking revenge and believes they are justified because it is necessary to save the country. I think they very well may be correct in the second and successful in the first.

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:58 pm 49. davidt:

If hasan wanted to be a martyr for jihad,
If hasan is convicted and sentenced to death,
Will the death penalty make hasan the martyr he wants to be?

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:58 pm 50. Josh:

Will the death penalty make hasan the martyr he wants to be?

Let’s find out, pronto.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:03 pm 51. Whitehall:

48 – WWS,

I find your interpretation cogent but not yet persuasive. It is one of many possibilities that fit the facts as I know them now.

Fortunately, I don’t have any immediate decision to make so I can sit back and watch this unfold, skeptical as always.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:22 pm 52. Marcus Aurelius:

So what if it makes him a martyr? Let him die helplessly strapped to gurney — I am sure waking up in the hospital was the last thing he wanted have happen.

Martyrdom is overblown. If you are dead than you are not around to control the field.

On one of those of Star Trek sequel series Curzon Dax & some aging Klingons were going to exact revenge from a former adversary and they were psyching themselves up for death. Curzon Dax basically told them death is overrated and to plan a mission aiming for mission success & survival which are never mutually exclusive.

I wonder how much has been written on the suicide mission in warfare? Willingness to die for a cause is one thing, eagerness is another.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:36 pm 53. Joe Hill:

Doug @19 – Like the Civil Service isn’t already 99.9% Democrat. I have lived in and around Washington for the last 40 years and have yet to meet anyone with a Civil Service job outside the DoD or intelligence services who isn’t a liberal. Most of the jobs are so mind numbingly boring that you have to be half brain dead to do them which also makes them ideal democrats anyway. A week in the Dept of Labor would make any sane man want set his own head on fire and put it out with an ice pick.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:38 pm 54. herb:

davidt: A martyr is one who sacrifices his life for God. Whether Hasan’s life is subject to being given for God or for some other entity is a subject for an extended discussion.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:39 pm 55. skatzbert:

So, Rep. Hoekstra, what difference does it actually make? Congressional investigations are almost always vast dog & pony shows; nothing really changes. The agencies know only too well that their smartest move is to dutifully hang their heads in shame, take all the blame and then everybody just… moves on. No heads roll. No agency head comes in hard-nosed, beady-eyed and tells congress point-blank, “Yeah we did it, but it was your assholish rules, regulations, pestering, preening and posturing that actually caused the problem. All these demands for ‘investigations’ are just meaningless bullshit.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:43 pm 56. Buck Smith:

How many other Nidal Hassans are shuffling toward Texas to be born?

I think I read that the military has 3000 Muslims. I think the commanding officer of each one should have a heart-to-heart talk with them and say something like. “We are at war with extremists Islamists.” If you harbor extremist Islamist views you should not be in the US military. If you harbor extremist Islamist views, we can get Conscientious Objector status and get you out of here. If you harbor extremist Islamist views and you stay in the US military, you are doing something very dangerous.”

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:47 pm 57. herb:

wws – this is half baked but..

Bush was plagued by leaks that were harmful to the effort (funding chases, sigint, rendition, etc.) This set of leaks help the effort (look at what we knew but couldnt use). I cant tell if the intel community is trying to help or hurt or simply trying to keep the temps (pols and appointees) away from their crib. Occam says the latter.

Which sort of raises the question about how are they so good now when they were so inept before? I think we need to dig up Bill Donovan.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:50 pm 58. erc rodson:

I believe that Major Hasan is an enemy combatant. Wearing the uniform of his enemies as a ruse. As such, an undeclared enemy combatant under a false flag. He attacked uniformed military personnel on a military installation, not civilians in a mall. This would be little different than a suicide bomber or a sniper who targets military targets except the false uniform makes it worse. I don’t think he falls under the UCMJ, although I guess he will have to be tried under it and certainly not under the Geneva Convention. If we acknowledge that we are at war, then he has committed treason. But, so what, we can only kill him once, no use piling on the charges, just get on with the court martial and subsequent verdict.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:58 pm 59. Joe Hill:

Whitehall @26 said “So they bet wrong. 13 soldiers died. Things do go wrong in the real world. It wasn’t Antietam.”

I guess it is a good thing he was a Major in the Army and not in the Air Force or he could have gone Jihadi with a B2 bomber.

How many Admirals had their careers ended because of a little grabass in the TailHook scandal a few years back? Was it 14? How does thisn little boondogel compare to that in terms of lives and suffering? Yeah I am sure the Republicans are going to play politics with this thing but sometimes the politically most expedient thing to do is also the right thing to do. This needs serious investigation and it needs heads to roll.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:05 pm 60. Batman:

Does anyone know the technicalities of a charge of treason? Is it something the Army can do or must it come out of the Justice Department? And what would constitute evidence that this WAS treason?

It certainly seems to meet the non-technical definition of treason — a person who was supposed to be loyal to the United States was in contact with agents of the enemy, spoke against America, entered a US military base shouting an enemy slogan, and murdered 13 (or 14 if you count the unborn baby of the pregnant soldier), wounding scores of others.

Why wouldn’t this merit an indictment for treason?

(I continue to predict that Hasan will not be executed.)

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:20 pm 61. Konyok:

Wretchard@8

Perhaps Major Hasan’s participation on the Homeland Security Policy Institute project isn’t an outlier data point after all …

I think that our conniving friends on the left would like him to become the Lieutenant Dreyfuss of our day – only problem is that he shot 40 innocent people.

**

Might I humbly suggest some nice Georgian wine?

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:20 pm 62. Lifeofthemind:

Republicans tend to walk around holding books to send signals. Bush did so with Natan Scharansky and Palin did with Mark Levin. People should now start reading and walking around with Bernard Lewis’ The Crisis of Islam and Rebecca West’s The New Meaning of Treason.

Democratic politicians don’t have to since they get other people to read for them. Their role models are the Hollywood executives who scan a two page summary prepared by a kid from Harvard hoping to break into Conan O’Brien’s staff. The pols’ agents in the press report that they commune with the Muses without regard to evidence that they can communicate unaided using two syllable words. Barack Obama is given credit for writing two books before there is any reason to believe that he had read one.

The reading is important as that is how the author speaks to you but it is the walking around holding the book that enables you to speak to others. While no one should reduce books to props, or think that they could get away with doing so, it is important that we act more aggressively in shaping the terms of public debate. This is one way that we can begin to do so.

Blogged under the title “Sending Signals.”

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:40 pm 63. Konyok:

LOTM,

I’m proud that Bush has chosen Freedom as the theme of his ex-presidency (wholly consistent with his use of Sharansky’s book). I’m hopeful, now that he is beginning to break his polite silence, that he will begin to speak out on behalf of the Iranian democracy movement – probably the most important front in the struggle against jihadism today.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:49 pm 64. bob from Idaho:

Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.

I know folks who have honed this approach to a fine art.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:53 pm 65. Lifeofthemind:

Konyok,
Perhaps Presidents like Japanese Emperors should have three names.
1. Their birth name (George Washington or Prince Michi)
2. Their name in office (Mr President or Prince/Emperor Hirohito)
3. Their name for history (Father of His Country or Emperor Shōwa)

This could make for an interesting parlor game as we argue over how the POTUS should be remembered.

Iran needs a General Monck.
Does Georgia make slivovitz?

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:05 pm 66. twobyfour:

Lifeofthemind/65

slivovitz

Thanks! I don’t feel alone in this world anymore!

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:14 pm 67. blert:

Traitor H has revealed that we have an army of Shultz’s.

The result is tragedy.

What frightens me: Re-runs!

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:17 pm 68. dkite:

The war, the only war that is important is the one in Washington. Anywhere else is a distraction. The pugilist fight using any means possible. Victory or failure means to both of them going home to a warm meal.

Hasan? Afghanistan? Distractions which must be ignored. The fight is in Washington.

There is no Moriarty. Just ask him.

Derek

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:26 pm 69. twobyfour:

wws/48

An interesting scenario, but the leaks seem to be somewhat distributed, like coming from different sources. More concerned individuals deciding that better late than never, channeled William Ockham whispers into my ear.
Also, despite their overwhelming leftist bias, media don’t want to miss this opportunity to improve their rating scores and enhance their hubris. They gave 0 the presidency, they can take it away.

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:28 pm 70. Lifeofthemind:

blert,
Relax.
Think of the movie not the TV show. The bad guys have Sgt. Schulz.
We have a military full of guys like JJ Sefton.
http://tinyurl.com/ykya3c5
Put your money on the Yanks.

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:40 pm 71. Konyok:

Elegant and profound, LOTM.

Our presidency is an interesting instution that still carries the noble fingerprint of George Washington. Both head of state and head of government, both political and ceremonial. Both democratic and monarchical. In times past a king might step down and retire to a monastery, but what is a former president to do when he falls from heaven? Mediocre President Taft became the architect of the modern Supreme Court. Jimmy Carter built houses and became a megalomaniac moral preener. Clinton took a pass, but Gore picked up the baton and became a prophet.

Regard for freedom is the great lack of our day, I’m glad that Dubya is taking up this calling.

**

Slivovitz is a Balkan thing. In Georgia, and especially in Armenia, they distill a fine brandy.

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:45 pm 72. Nomenklatura:

If Hasan’s backstory is critical politically then it must be very inconvenient that he survived.

It’s a lot easier to throw dust in the public’s eyes if the assassin is dead (thank you, Jack Ruby).

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:53 pm 73. twobyfour:

Konyok, whatever is the place of origin, you find the best slivovitz in southern Moravia region. If you happen to go there, try to find a catholic priest that has his privately distilled stash. They must be blessing it or sumthin. Heavenly nectar! Nothing compares, nothing compares, to it…

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:53 pm 74. RagnarD:

wws @ 48:

So, they followed their orders, did what they were told, and let him go on. But they held on to all of the incriminating evidence, and I believe someone (or maybe several someones) *knew* that Hasan was going to go off sometime and was (were) incredibly frustrated that they could do nothing official about it.

Heh. And some chastise me for saying the dog may be getting wagged? Yeah, not a chance of THAT happening is there? Nope. These are not the jihadis you were looking for…..

And with the coming purge of all GoP members from the civil service we are completing our march to Banana Republic status.

More dithering on Afghanistan also now puts The 0bamanation into amateur status. Not making a decision is a decision. pResident Pantywaist has decided to lose. eof

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:54 pm 75. Wadeusaf:

The people of Iran have brought the pols along, and not the other way around. It is a result of horrible financial dealings and strangulation of enterprise. It is ultimately the US citizen who will signal an end to the administrations attempt to turn our republic into a soviet-style but unelected socialistic state.

President Lincoln dragged his feet on a number of issues until the people told him otherwise. FDR and War preparations were of the same manner and process. What the administration is attempting to do is not some thing that rational thinking folks will subscribe to. They are on the wrong side of the decision making process if they are waiting for the people to make an irrational decision possible.

Major Hassan is a US States Citizen, sworn to an oath. He has violated that oath through thirteen acts of murder. It is beyond our power to forgive, and defies justification. He is dead already, only his body doesn’t know it yet. He is dead, no virgins to look forward to, no happiness to follow him into the afterlife. He is dead by his own hand, and even by the tenents of the religion the major would use as an excuse for such vile unholy deeds.

I have never been much of a fisherman, but I have never seen where beer, or whiskey or wine, mix much with fish until after someone sober has caught one. Fly fishing for such a case is good exorcise.

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:27 pm 76. Unsk:

Buraq and his advisors just aren’t very bright.

In politics, when a pol is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, it’s often how he deals the public and how forthcoming he is that decides his fate. It’s the cover -up not the crime that does him in, more often than not.

There already were quite logical suppositions as to whether Buraq interceded to protect this guy in the service. But now, stonewalling an investigation can only lead to more questions, and suspicions that Buraq is protecting terrorist muslims.

Go ahead Buraq make our day. Pretty soon we’ll be hearing ‘What did Buraq know and when did he know it?”

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:49 pm 77. PatriotUSA:

Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.

I do that anyway and it is great therapy.
Time MAY tell us more of the details about
Hasan but I doubt we will ever know the
entire affair, especially with nobama in
the White House.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:03 am 78. Charles:

60. Batman:

Does anyone know the technicalities of a charge of treason?
……..
Over the last ten years, I have heard people from all parts of the political spectrum use the word treason. None ever got any traction.

Some German spies were executed in WWII for spying but not for treason since they were german nationals. Since then only the Rosenbergs were convicted and executed for spying. Treason was a word Judge Kaufman used to characterize their acts since they were American Citizens–by way of justifying the death penalty.

According to National Committee to Reopen the Rosenberg Case
“And Judge Kaufman, in his sentencing statement, delivered seven days after the trial ended, justified the death penalty by saying that the Rosenbergs “put the A-bomb into the hands of the Russians”, were guilty of causing the war in Korea and “treason”.”

That sentence effectively split the American narrative for decades. The great genius of Reagan was that he always understood the counter narrative of the left. Something that could not be said of Nixon.

imho it is the great problem of the left today that much of their language is based on reference points and prejudices of a world that long ago disappeared–and a reality in many cases — that never existed. The Rosenbergs were spies.

Come to think of it, there may turn up some interesting parallels in the relationship between the NSA and the FBI then and now. But likely not.

Why not?

In the late 40’s the NSA through the Venona cables turned up the Rosenbergs and passed the info to the FBI. However, the NSA required the FBI to make their own case and not use NSA intercepts in court. (The NSA was worried that the Russians would find out about Venona. The Russians did find out about venona in 1948 by way of one of their spies on the decrypting team.) The Rosenbergs were just one of +100 (might go to a couple hundred–I’ve forgotten the exact number) spies that turned up in the Venona decripts.

The FBI did not catch most of the spies found in the Venona cables because they couldn’t develop the evidence to try the spies in court. When the first spying trials started in 1948 — most of the spies simply stepped out of government. Their spy trails vanished.

Likely this caused the J Edgar Hoover’s FBI no end of unhappiness. The beginning and end of McCarthy’s anti communist campaign corresponded to the beginning and end of McCarthy’s weekly meetings with J. Edgar Hoover. The relationship between the NSA and the FBI looks very much like the relationship between Hoover and McCarthy. ie just as the NSA showed the FBI the Venona decrypts but insisted they had to use their own evidence in courts — so also it appears that Hoover told stuff to McCarthy but insisted that he had to develop his own sources. (The FBI denies to this day that Hoover told McCarthy anything related to their spying investigations.)

Again. Why not? Why does this not quite map over to the Hasan.

It may well be that the NSA gave the FBI their signt on Hasan. What’s different is that we’re learning about this now –and not 50 years later.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:00 am 79. buddy larsen:

murder means never being able to shake dick cheney. imho, a sleeper for sure, but this act was his own. planned by handlers, an attack would’ve been more sensitive to Obama’s political plight. plus as someone said above re better a pistol than a B2, a cell plan would’ve been different than what happened, one would think –if the idea being to sow maximum fear and distrust, the cell would have wanted to be sure the attack didn’t get branded as a lone wacko ’snap’ –right?

***
C/78; excellent post –echoes and echoes, the past is still with us, as fresh as the morrow morning.

***

also as mentioned above, Obama’s deepest attack is on authority itself, and the language needed to defend it.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:47 am 80. Wadeusaf:

BL/79 “one would think –if the idea being to sow maximum fear and distrust, the cell would have wanted to be sure the attack didn’t get branded as a lone wacko ’snap’ –right?”

I dunno, given the hand wringing and overthink to which our current society is prone, it probably doesn’t matter how the thing is planned or by who, folks trying to cover their positional arses will stir the contents of the septic tank till their take on the matter rises to the top.

But the why is incidental to the what, imo. No matter why one might think the matter is it is all waste material because you know the results of the deed. Thirteen dead.

The major was kept on active duty status despite clear and incontrovertible evidence that he was the enemy. Deeds, even before the shootings. Deeds not words,

Some aggressive DA could make a case for involuntary manslaughter, seeing as we are in a man made tragicomic theater of reprisal, or whatever the heck president Obama substituted for the name of WAR. Perhaps the thing will be rethought given the wide open nature of criminal law re: investigations and discovery that is.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:17 am 81. Ernie G:

60. Batman:

Does anyone know the technicalities of a charge of treason?

Treason is the only crime defined in the Constitution:

ARTICLE III Section 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

That pretty much nails it. Hasan was levying war against the United States. Carl von Clausewitz famously defined war as “The continuation of foreign policy by other means.” That is exactly what Hasan was doing: attempting to influence foreign policy by the means of a terror attack.

The problem with a charge of treason is that the UCMJ does not have a Treason Article. But there is Article 118 – Murder, and it carries the penalty of death.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:27 am 82. Wadeusaf:

9/11 mastermind and five others to be tried in NY court. If Rudy were still in office I would not be so concerned.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:31 am 83. Tymijan:

twobyfour,
Czech Gans out. Slivovice. Jizni Morava. Even the loneliness. How very czech.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:39 am 84. dan:

i do not think insensitivity to obama’s political requirements undermines the sleeper hypothesis. in my opinion the purpose obama serves from the point of view of our enemies is not that he should rule indefinitely or “successfully.” look at the behavior of russia, iran, or other conspiring nations: active measures about bush deliver an obama generation, and then the next phase is to complete the political humiliation of the USA by demonstrating to the credulous that even a generous, reflexively apologetic and accomodating USA is incompatible with the “spirit of the international community.” to support obama is to ipso facto support USA exceptionalism, given even the currently-stressed objective circumstances. therefore obama must be humiliated, was designed to be humiliated, but to make the humiliation palatable to it and even inevitable-seeming. so – in my opinion – this is the reason why we will shortly begin to see one or two new wars, perhaps something that persists longer than a Russia v. Georgia, the better to show how unmighty the USA really is. obama is obviously not capable of dealing with crises like these effectively or even coherently – not even coherently emotionally, as Bush & Co. were good at.

why this strategy? because it is a good way to isolate the USA – i.e.d reduce it to a ‘normal nation’ in spite of comparatively overwhelming power and stability. because, ultimately, having demonstrated the impotence even of the exalted vision of The One, what then can be the answer to all the burning problems of the day, which “everyone” so movingly believed could be addressed by an Obama? certainly not Islam, the whore. then what competitor for “end of history” standard is there? i shall not say it aloud.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:02 am 85. Darren:

Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.

Medical folks are possessed of dark humor, the shorthand phrase for advising someone with a widespread and untreatable malignancy to forego fruitless chemotherapy and be comfortable in the their last days and weeks is “the 6PFP protocol” — a 6-Pack and a Fishing Pole. Not far from your formulation at all.

How many other Nidal Hassans are shuffling toward Texas to be born?

Off-base Texas is a terrible place to try that kind of thing. Texans are rather well-armed and have no compunction with engaging mass public shooters. The Fort Hood shooting is not even the worst MPS in the history of Killeen, TX, there was a shooting at a Luby’s in 1991 that was a seminal event in concealed-carry rights here, one of the uninjured survivors was a Killeen chiropractor, Suzana Gratia Hupp, whose parents were murdered in that shooting. She served 10 years as a state representative, she is the anti-Carolyn McCarthy.

I have been concerned about low-tech terrorism in multiple places ever since the Muhammed sniper fest in DC and the Beslan school takeover. We are not ready for distributed violence of that sort in the United States. At least tactical doctrine has shifted from contain-and-negotiate to engage-and-kill in the case of mass public shooting incidents, the only thing that is going to stop those actions short of shooter suicide is somebody else with a firearm. Unfortunately, most police forces are not prepared for the kind of sweep-and-clear hostage rescue that would be necessary if somebody tried a Beslan here, or worse, six or eight at the same time, spread across the nation. We really have three teams trained and able to do that kind of response — Delta, SEAL Team Six and the FBI’s HRT. What happens if there are eight schools with multiple shooters identically wired with C4, with 300 kids in the gym and television coverage of all eight, with each team promising to detonate if any of the others are attacked? Can we really coordinate eight assaults? Could the media be kept from covering them? Forty-eight jihadis with $100,000 in equipment could wreak unspeakable havoc on the fabric of our society.

Terrorism has so far been a major concern of the big cities. AQ wants big targets to make media headlines around the world, so the focus is apparently on major disasters in major media markets. Folks like me who live in a town of 75,000 or so aren’t as concerned with terrorism because we’re off AQ’s radar, or so it seems. The function of terrorism is to change the policy of a nation by terrorizing the citizenry, and if AQ ever figures out that there is more generalized terrorizing to be gained in Reno, Ames, Fresno and Ocala than NY, LA, SF and DC, we are likely to see better organized and better planned versions of Dr. Hasan’s outburst at many vulnerable points.

This is another problem I have with ‘Homeland Defense’ and the shunting of large amounts of preparedness and defense dollars to cities like New York and Los Angeles: all that money is wasted if terrorists don’t attack there, but do equivalent damage somewhere else. I think biologic sampling and radiation detectors are probably a good investment, and signals intelligence and data mining are invaluable given that the terrorists seem to be in late-model vans on the Information Superhighway. Coordination is difficult without rapid communications, and that’s a vulnerability. But to be honest, preparedness comes down to having enough shovels and brooms to allow easy cleanup after an event happens. By investing billions in fortress cities like NYC, you are sending a signal to AQ of where not to attack next. There is a lot of low-hanging fruit, and that one biohazard response truck my city got out of the post-9/11 flood of federal dollars doesn’t help a situation that calls for dynamic entry and clearing of buildings with armed terrorists and terrified children.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:23 am 86. pgrino:

“46. Doc99:
How many other Nidal Hassans are shuffling toward Texas to be born?”

Are you pro-choice now?

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:35 am 87. Whitehall:

LOTM – #62

Should we conservatives now start carrying “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” or Spengler’s “Decline of the West” in public?

Whistling “Onward Christian Soldiers” in public is already highly politically incorrect.

Let’s give the Army some credit here. They were in the process of shipping Hasan to Afghanistan. He might have gotten a dose of reality there, probably sitting at Bagram. Or he could have continued the contact with the local enemy and generated some drone targets.

I do agree that the battle is now in Washington. Individual agency CYA efforts will come at a cost for Obama but will continue and maybe intensify. The odds of exposing Obama’s hand directly connected are low. They are better for another czar to fall.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:42 am 88. Habu:

I am deeply comforted and have full faith that the leaking game is in full play. It informs us, it provides the US MSM, and it provides the world with a plethora of hypothesis from which to launch a thousand wacko theories. Some are actually funny in the face of this murderous act, but obama needs more time to Goebbels up THE BIG LIE, rehearse it with his R2D2 teleprompter and then once again sell the population that everything is , “like man , way cool”. “like we have the LONE dude in custody and he alone will be in the dock, not islam. Nothing else to see or find out here folks so just move along.” Islam is a religion of peace even though literally thousands of terrorist acts have been perpetrated by islam in the past thirty years. In the history of mankind the number ranges toward calculating Pi.

Additionally we should all be totally calm and confident the Wetback-American, House Intelligence committee chair Silvester Reyes has by now learned at minimum the difference between Shiite and Sunni muslims, which of course he did not know when the beloved Nancy Pelosi A.K.A. Ilse Koch appointed him to his chairmanship.

In the end justice will be applied by some South Sea island cargo cult by denying the perp from ever having another date.

Ilse Koch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:49 am 89. buddy larsen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby’s_massacre

(re Darren/#85)

The lady whose parents wre killed in front of her eyes, as the wiki relates, had a pistol in her car in the parking lot. but she stayed with her elederly parents hiding under a table hoping the shooter wouldn’t come their way. By the time he did, she couldn’t break for ther gun, he was on top of her and shooting everything that moved. She said that she had several clean shots at him from early on –most especially when he was a few feet away shooting up her parents. but no pistole, it was in the car, like the law said. However, the shooter had ignored that law, and carried his pistols into the Luby’s with him –at which point they began going off and killing the nearby diners.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:52 am 90. buddy larsen:

I’d like to believe that myself, had i been there in that Luby’s –keep in mind an ordinary maybe thirty table dining area where no one is more that three seconds from any one at a run, that i or someone would’ve started hollering from their cover, “We gotta rush this guy, everbody who can help, we go on the count of three –whos in?” and when you get a few call outs, make the count and freaking go. at best you end it right there, at worst you get killed and the kids talk about you around their campfires for a hundred years.

***

BTW #79 was supposed to begin with the word “terrorism” –not “murder” –(*groan*)

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:14 am 91. Storm-Rider:

House intelligence committee chair Silvestre Reyes (D-TX): “I hope that my colleagues will refrain from speculation…”

This is Orwellian (Marxist) Newspeak for “I hope that my colleagues will refrain from thinking about truth…”

“Those who have the best knowledge of what is happening are also those who are furthest from seeing the world as it is; in general the greater the understanding the greater the delusion; the more intelligent the less sane…If human equality is to be forever averted; if the “high,” as we have called them, are to keep their places permanently, then the prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity.” George Orwell, 1984

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:26 am 92. Darren:

buddy,

I went to medical school at Texas A&M, when the shooting happened I was still in College Station doing the first two years, I got to Temple (and actually did a rotation at Darnall) in 1992. Ms. Hupp’s story is very familiar, it seems so often that legislation comes by anecdote rather than data (and ‘data’ is not the plural of ‘anecdote’), and her story is one point on a line that led to concealed carry permits in Texas. It’s tragic, all of these incidents are tragic, and people do try to fight back. Ms. Hupp’s father charged the gunman and was mortally wounded in the chest, though not for lack of bravery. There are people in all of these situations that demonstrate incredible bravery, a professor at Virgina Tech (a veteran, if I remember correctly) charged the gunman and was also killed. Soldiers at the SRC have said they threw chairs and books and anything else they could at the gunman last week — but chairs and books are no substitute for someone else with a firearm.

Ms. Hupp’s father and all the others did not lack courage, they lacked tools.

WRT Islam, Habu — do all Christians bear responsibility for the actions of Eric Rudolph or the douchebag who shot George Tiller? How about the whole crowd of douchebags who surround Fred Phelps? I can understand the consternation of Muslims who are loyal to the United States, who send their kids into our armed forces and sometimes don’t get them back, who see their religion as they practice it lumped in with the extremism and radicalism of people like Hasan and the 9/11 hijackers. I don’t support the bombing of abortion clinics or the shooting of abortion doctors. I don’t support the use of Christianity or the book I revere to support the ideology of White Supremacists. They are not ‘Christian’ as I know the term, they call themselves that but rather than seeing them as brothers and sisters I am repulsed by them.

I absolutely see the connection between radical Islam and terrorist acts over the last few decades. Whether it’s genuine but horrifically-misplaced piety or simply convenient cover for extortionists and sociopaths, the connection is there for anyone to see. Not only that, but spasms of fundamentalism seem to wrack Islam every century or so, the last time it was Marines vs. Moros in the Phillipines. The vast majority of Muslim terror victims are other Muslims, though, and the main heartburn I have with all of this is that the Jerry Falwells and Rick Warrens and Pat Robertsons of Islam are not of one voice on the degree of outrage that is to be expressed over this. It might actually be helpful to have a Pope-like Caliph on the old Ottoman model who could say, once and for all, “Terror is not of Islam. We do not conquer by the sword, we do not kill unbelievers. Jihad is the battle within and anyone who kills another spits on the name of Allah.” All of that sentiment is in the Koran and Hadith as well, if that was what was emphasized I would have much less of a problem with Islam — and most Muslims would also have less problem with it as well.

Until that happens, though, Muslim faith remains a point on a line, and when that line is drawn through the segment of Muslim thought that embraces violent action against the unbelievers, a very significant point. Blanket condemnation is not in order, but some degree of wariness probably is.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:26 am 93. steveaz:

Dan @84,
“why this strategy? ”

Great question. There is a remarkable trend in academe, the Democrat(ic) Party and foreign affairs circles not just to imagine, but to actively craft, an alternative history of the world that is intentionally at odds with select nations’ (usually Germano-Capitalist ones’) histories. To construct this “revolutionary” polemic demands a lot of scheming in ivory towers as well as focused action on the ground.

This global history, as it is described by my leftist collegiate acquaintances, derives from one book, Zinn’s People’s History of the World, and it fuses extra-judiciary, collectivist concepts like “social justice” and “it takes a village” with an epochal, supranational time-view. Likewise, Islam’s radical historians approach world history from a similar, thousand-years-long stance that omits personal, parochial, state and national autonomies. Articulated together, like a scissors, the two act to shred national European histories, borders and shared Hellenistic traditions.

Juxtaposed to Zinn’s reprised “history,” mediations on such questions as, “Do Obama’s apologies to Islam mean that 9/11 worked and the Great Satan is shamed?,” or “Thomas Jefferson built the Navy and Islam raised the suicide bomber, in 2010 with Iran poised to get ‘the bomb’, which party has won?” – especially in the wake of a domestic massacre inside an American military campus this week – may help you to see a strategy. In 2003, our push into Iraq was, according to this alternative history, a deliberate affront to the Ummah and to the Left’s vaunted “International Law.” Consequently, in 2009, American soldiers aren’t safe onshore in their barracks.

The polemic leaves open the question, “Who won in Iraq?” Obama told us all which ‘history’ he favors – remember, he believes that America owes “reparations,” and that Bush ran “gulags” and started an “illegal” war.

It is one thing to like a particular fable, but…if his party is actively crafting the Tranzi’s anti-American ‘history’ with bows to oil-barons, scrapes to Mullahs, UN proxy-plays, dithering in Afghanistan, and other ’soft power’ expressions, well, with 13 dead and over thirty wounded at Fort Hood, I’d say they’re bumping up against treason.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:35 am 94. buddy larsen:

darren, you’re right, post-mortems based on ideal responses are fatuous nonsense. But if only Mrs Hupp’s dad had two more charging simultaneously –well there i go again.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:36 am 95. Darren:

Likewise, Islam’s radical historians approach world history from a similar, thousand-years-long stance that omits personal, parochial, state and national autonomies.

Of course there is not autonomy from their view, there is only the will of Allah as it is expressed in the world. It does make things simple.

Maybe it’s the Protestant in me talking, but Christians as a whole seem less enamored of the idea that everything that happens is God’s Will, at least not to the point of either fatalism or lassitude, which seem to be the poles that Islam wanders between in terms of the lack of an individual’s ability to affect their world. Insha’allah excuses a whole lot, at least from a Western/Christian standpoint. Christians still praise God for the blessings and pray for strength in the setbacks, but there does seem to be a much greater sense of personal empowerment and impetus for change.

Maybe that explains a part of the long Muslim decline and the rise of the West.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:43 am 96. Josh:

LOTM: Republicans tend to walk around holding books to send signals.

Books? How about they try something like these:
http://www.thoseshirts.com/reaganshirts.html

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:44 am 97. Darren:

Buddy,

Hard to conceive of a group of people more able to self-organize and repel boarders more than a bunch of soldiers. They’ve heard gunfire (and the Five-Seven would have been LOUD), they knew pretty quickly what was going on. Combat veterans I assume would have already run the mental checklist of where fire was coming from, how many shooters there seemed to be and would already be deciding whether to fight or run. If one or two people had their M9s on them, the outcome might have been very different, but when the bad guy has a gun and you don’t, that’s an awful high hill to climb. The shooter on the LIRR train was jumped when he stopped to reload — but only the second time he stopped to reload. In a warren of cubicles it can be awfully hard to tell if the shooter has paused or is still reloading. A wrong guess could mean your immediate demise.

I realize this sounds rather cold, but compared to other mass public shootings, the number of dead seems kind of low. The Luby’s shooting and the Virginia Tech shootings both had >50% fatalities of all those shot, Hasan shot about as many as in the other incidents, but only killed about 28%. The Five-Seven and its anemic 5.7×28mm round likely had something to do with it, and Combat Lifesaver training may have kept people with dangerous extremity wounds from bleeding out. At least two people were shot without realizing it, which doesn’t speak well of the 5.7×28mm round in civilian form. It may have also been that Hasan was so distracted with flying books and chairs that he wasn’t able to shoot as many people as he wanted, soldiers have reported that they did try to distract or attack Hasan with thrown objects.

Me personally I think he stopped one self-inflicted head wound short — and I would have much preferred that he started with that shot if he was so intent on shooting somebody.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:54 am 98. TMLutas:

There is a larger question here, one of executive secrecy that is dangerous for the country. Congressmen have the right to get information from the executive as part of their job. There are exceptions in which case there is a short list of the party leaders, head of the intelligence committees, and ranking members of the intelligence committees who can get the information. Somebody on the short list got denied. This is very troubling as a matter of principle.

People on the short list should almost never be denied information. Unless Hoekstra has some connection with Maj. Hasan that will be revealed later, this stinks. The Obama administration is using the dead as a cover for a political power grab to disadvantage the Congress.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:58 am 99. buddy larsen:

Darren, and too, it was over in a matter of minutes –not much time under the conditions to have found any way to organize a bum’s rush. And right on that cartridge –if he’d used the 1911 Colt it would have been measurably worse no doubt. In the end, there’s no way to compensate for the madman’s advantage –he’s picked the time and place and and in the cosmic order of things the bystanders are just there to be the targets.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:12 am 100. Tom Holsinger:

Richard, he may be referring to an intervention by Eric Holder’s Justice Department to shut down an on-going investigation of Major Hasan by the Joint Terrorism Task Force. A.J. Strata has a thread on this here:

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/11297

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:15 am 101. Habu:

92. Darren
Your statement:
“WRT Islam, Habu — do all Christians bear responsibility for the actions of Eric Rudolph or the douchebag who shot George Tiller?” blah ,blah and then more blah blah.

Cristianity doesn’t come near teaching what islam does, or are you divinely graced to know otherwise?

Allow me to intruct you, if that is possible.
Islam is an aggressive, murderous philosophy that DEMANDS their followers to KILL infidels. Name me another?

Islam through the quran says:

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”

Qur’an:4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”

Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.The infidels”

Darren, you are in deep, deep do-do if you can make a rational case for your position…you are a useful islamic idiot. Talk of caliber of weapon. You need first to examine the caliber of your logic and understanding…….zero deflection from being an idiot.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:26 am 102. Habu:

mmmmm mmmm mm

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:41 am 103. marymcl:

Good grief Habu, are you so lost in your sauce that you think all it takes is being called names by your high and mighty self to convince people they should abandon their own judgment?

You seem to think anything short of “kill them all” is aiding and abetting the enemy. It’s still a free country and you’re entitled to your opinion but that’s all it is and those who think differently are neither stupid nor traitorous for doing so.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:47 am 104. Sylvia:

“Maybe the only rational thing to do in this universe is to buy a bottle of whiskey and go fishing.”

No! You MAKE the bottle of whiskey and then go fishing.

Actually, in warm weather I prefer fresh lemonade and in cold weather, homemade ginger ale. I want to be able to bring home the fish for supper and not lose any flies in the creek.

“Taking someone fishing” is a euphemism for what I’d like to do to Hasan.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:00 am 105. wretchard:

Personally I don’t think we should ever get into the “kill them all” mode simply because it’s too dangerous. Once that gets started the boundaries are hard to draw. Consider your own circle of friends, family and acquaintances. Where does the magic circle begin or end? And are we in somebody else’s black circle? Who gets to draw it?

Now the problem with unlimited combat, if you get into it, is that there are no rules except those of physics. Justice and fairness are not words which have meaning in that universe. Innocent kids, monsters, beautiful women, brave men, works of art, sleek horses, septic tanks, century-old trees — all alike can be blown up. All alike can be tortured; all alike can be maimed. Fair ain’t got nothing to do with it. The main task of civilization lies in applying timely and controlled force to criminal forces to prevent a wholesale breakdown and the descent into unlimited combat. Once you are down that road it is all dark until events or your own death take you from it.

The reason that appeasement is so bad is that contrary to its best intentions it leads directly to unlimited combat. Once you effectively prevent the Hasans of the world from being uprooted you effectively guarantee an eventual September 11. And given enough September 11s, then the tunnel begins.

So the whole question of protecting civilization lies in balancing the demands of considerate justice, mercy and love with the fear of the dark. History is the story of attempts to keep the balance. Our grandfathers failed. And we perhaps, have never learned how.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:05 am 106. Lifeofthemind:

buddy larsen,
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
That is partly why I believe in universal military training after the 17th birthday. Widely distributed Homeland Security and Disaster Response training should be a primary task carried out through local armories and community colleges, which should all have a National Guard/militia affiliation. A well trained and armed citizenry should be the bedrock of our security.

Habu,
Someone had posted on The Club links about the sewer in Baltimore that Pelosi came from. She has property out on Long Island also. These people are like kudzu, they spread tendrils if you blink.

Speaking of which Theo Spark’s spud farm has several references to Ms Two Heartbeats from the Presidency today. My favorite is this one. http://tinyurl.com/ykxwm7q

Whitehall,
Go for the Star Trek market. Walk around carrying Cities in Flight by James Blish instead.

Darren,
Because the construction industry is so dependent on illegal alien labor I am very concerned about a Beslan style attack happening here. The Chechens stored their weapons in spaces they built into the school while they worked on the building crew. The government should work with the unions to see to it that construction workers are screened and sites are inspected. Civil Libertarians will fight it and most fiscal conservatives are very leery of empowering the people who profit from Davis-Bacon. Oddly enough that law is named for two Republicans and was signed by Herbert Hoover.

Ernie G,
The troops are watching. When prosecuting an officer for misconduct it is important for the good order and discipline of the Service to throw the book at him.
Articles that I would charge Hasan with include:
Art. 81 Conspiracy (his contacts with al-Qaeada) *
Art. 82 Solicitation (his counseling sessions to troops)
Art. 90 Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer *
Art. 93 Cruelty and maltreatment (covers harm caused to subordinates)
Art. 94 Mutiny or sedition *
Art. 99 Misbehavior before the enemy *
Art. 104 Aiding the enemy (his contacts with al-Qaeda) *
Art. 106a Espionage (refers to treason at sub (c) (1)) *
Art. 116 Riot or breach of peace
Art. 118 Murder *
Art. 119a Death or injury of an unborn child
Art. 128 Assault
Art. 133 Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman
Art. 134 General article.

Those Articles marked with an asterisk (*) may carry the death penalty.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:05 am 107. Charles:

Here is a collection of Obama’s statements on
islam in utube

Its pretty amazing as a body of work.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:11 am 108. Charles:

For anyone interested in a good read
Spies: The Rise and Fall of the KGB in America
by John Earle Haynes, Harvey Kleer,Alexander Vassiliev. The book was published this year and can now be read online.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:44 am 109. Habu:

103. marymcl

First off, I don’t drink. I don’t smoke and I don’t chew. I do enjoy hitting the speedbag and lifting weights; bow and arrow, horseshoes and riding; hiking and birding. I am an expert at 500 yards with a Remington 700. Scope it (which mine is) and I can really reach out there.

I do so enjoy your misrepresentations of what I say, and the schadenfreude you rain down on yourself is a hoot, very soothing.

A few time honored pointers, or at least one. In war you kill the enemy, and wound more so their resources and morale are quickly depleted. islam is at war with the world and I believe we should afford them the opportunity to die for their beliefs in great numbers. The actual number is significant only in so far as one is reached that does alter their behavior. Lincoln said if he could keep the Union together by not freeing any slaves he would do so. If it took freeing half the slaves he would do so, and if it took freeing all the slaves he would do that. Well, if we could kill just three or four more muzzies and have them go back to peaceful ways then great, I’m all for that. But they don’t seem to want that…they want the bomb. As of now I’m not going to short my position in bullets.

Please keep up your attempts at curbing my free speech in favor of a contributor I may disagree with. It makes you look silly.

This is done for the aforementioned and to aid them in altering their approach to bombing innocent civilians around the globe.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:57 am 110. buddy larsen:

Glen Beck’s show yesterday showed a clip of Beck doing a street shot for some other show when accosted by a guy which Beck later in showing the clip identified only by first name “Anthony” and that he is a retired Marine and Afstan vet. Anyway, this 30 something african american vet was laying into the war leadership, hard, specifically Obama, on the basis of what he is telling the enemy every day that goes by. he said he has fought those guys and knows how they think, and that Obama has no clue how well he is being calibrated by the enemy and how much he is helping them.

Then this morning on Drudge there’s this Boston mom and sister who just got news last Tuesday that son & brother won’t be coming home from Afghanistan. I didn’t look at the video –i mean, of course she’s broken up, where’s the news there.

Then i get an email from my eldest daughter, and –well i shoulda put 2+2 already but didn’t, she was HS friends with one of the KIA Aggies from Fredericksburg, which is right down the road from her high school. So then feeling blue i went and looked at the video, at this mom is in anguish, i mean in real anguish, calling out ”It is time, mr. president, to either end this thing or bring the boys home. it’s time, mr president, it’s time.”

Crying women, pissed off vets, there’s a theme and i’m afraid it’s that they’re all –the mom, the sister, the Marine finding Glenn Beck on the street and managing to get the star’s attention and then just blistering the hell out of him in an urgent low-voiced, non-stop, perfectly-ordered step by step case against the premise behind the current strategy, my daughter’s sad message in sending me the local obits on her friend, they’re all in common feeling like our people are at this point just being thrown away like dust in the wind. dammit to hell –this is trying to make into Vietnam all over again. this standing on one leg is crap and it needs to stop. mr. president tear down your wall.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:03 am 111. Habu:

106. Lifeofthemind

I always enjoy Sparks. I always admired those who could express the thousand words with a picture or drawing. It is a talent.

In fact do they still offer drawing school on the inside cover of matchbooks? It’s a start.

Allow me this piggyback answer to 103. marymcl;
I am also a great skeet shooter, but get to the range so seldom I’m probably now just semi-great.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:04 am 112. Darren:

Habu,

There are a billion Muslims in the world. If we get nuked and can definitively trace it back to AQ or an ‘Islamic Bomb’, I’m all for the GPL option. Fifteen minutes after we’re sure, the world will be short about half a billion of those Muslims.

I am not an idiot, useful or otherwise. Practically speaking, if all Islamics were Islamists and interpreted those specific passages the way you do it would make life much easier, we could use our technological superiority and absolutely lay waste to Muslim nations. Hey, I like simple, turn some keys and solve the problem, right?

And yet, the ‘unbelievers’ are a different class than ‘People of the Book’ in the Koran. The Koran itself has the Mecca sections, non-militant and integrationist, and the Medina sections, clearly militant and unbending. It appears that most Muslims are able to look at the two sides and not pick up arms, and if they’re willing to live at peace with me I’m willing to live at peace with them. I imagine Lugol’s solution tastes like crap, and I have no desire to deal with the fallout (literally) of your solution, at least without good reason other than suspicion. Muslims willing to live in a pluralistic society without dreams of overthrow of the secular state and replacement with shari’a are fine by me.

Christianity does not teach violence toward others, though there is the curious passage in Luke 22:36 advising the disciples to ‘buy a sword’. I’m doubting that Jesus was a fan of cutlery for the art of it, but we don’t have an example of anyone other than the Holy Spirit striking anyone down. Peter cut the ear off of the Chief Priest’s servant (most likely an attempted and unsuccessful decapitation), and was rebuked for it. But when you look at the Old Testament, there sure is a lot of smiting going on there at God’s direction, men, women, children & beasts.

You are correct that the Bible doesn’t place us at war with anything other than the ‘princes of the air’ and other unseen things. But there is still justification found by individuals with their own issues for violence in the name of “God’s will”. I don’t believe that comes from a knowledge of Christ, and I would suggest that Muslims who are integrated into our society are as or more appalled by Islamist terrorism than Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics and the rest. There is a baby-bathwater issue here, and while you can rip off a list of Koranic quotes to support your assertion, the fact that there are so few Muslims (proportionate to the population) acting as those scriptures seem to intend suggests that the majority of them don’t see it that way.

If you want to grow a religion, try to drive it underground. The first years of Christianity and even the first years of Islam are great examples of how persecution builds faith rather than destroying it. If you try to stamp out Islam you may end up increasing the number of fundamentalists, not decreasing it. And under our system of governance, the fundies like Major Hasan get to choose the time and place of their ‘testament’.

I’m sure you are personally ready for it if there is Sudden Jihad Syndrome in your immediate vicinity, I know I am. My Glock 26 doesn’t have the range of your Remington 700, but I can put my 12+1 plus a reload on-target within 25 yards just fine, that should either end the situation or get me to a long gun. Complete and absolute intolerance of people who are equally appalled by Hasan’s behavior and are coreligonists of his is not a long-term productive strategy. Without someone in the mosque with allegiance to his fellow man over his fellow parishoners, we won’t be tipped off to the next MPS, or worse.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:24 am 113. Storm-Rider:

Give Habu credit for having a mind for war. As I see it the United States has entered into the opening act of World War IV; our future will be a serious and possibly desperate struggle for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness; this war has only begun. Habu is barking up the right tree, even if he gets excited at times. Habu is an American Patriot and a good man; a man who will defend the American people and our Constitution. We had all better start developing a mind for war – it’s coming – and you need not worry about Habu’s wartime intentions – the millions dead will be in this country – under several 10 million degree fiery mushroom clouds.

We need a mind for war. Now is the time for us to beat our pruning hooks and plowshares into spears and swords; otherwise it will soon be time to loose the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword.

http://fora.tv/2007/11/30/Norman_Podhoretz

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:48 am 114. dan:

Islam is a script for Arab conquerors to read over their new chattel; its Christian (not how archaic) and Jewish accretions are just to make the message intelligible. No need to update for a thousand years because what imagination needed to be colonized in terms Islamic? Since approximately A.D. 800, None. (Remember Persia fell in a swoop.) Or rather: that is what is now taking place. Islam is formulating itself to colonize the Mind, just as Stalin attempted to do. And where else has doctrinaire Islam have to go in the face of modern ideological chaos except to a purified Arab wasteland of the Wahhabi mind? Nowhere. That’s what Islam *is.* The rest is a temporary accomodation with reality so long as it contains dar-al-harb. Any sort of conversation it appears to engage in is illusory, activneya meropriatyia. There is no conversation. The Koran is Allah propounding. Allah does not admit of conversation.

Islam is a script to read to the conquered.

Nice scissors metaphor steveaz!

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:48 am 115. Richard Aubrey:

There seems to be a shortage of non-jihadi Muslims dropping the dime.
The celebrations of 9-11 in Dearborn, for example, didn’t have to blow anything up to raise questions about even non-violent Muslims.
Two or three years ago, a Muslim in Tulsa wrote an op-ed saying Muslims should forego violence. He was kicked out of his mosque and threatened with violence. None of his co-congregants has blown anything up, to my knowledge. I’ve tried to see if the more moderate factions of that mosque have split and set up on their own, but I’ve not found anything one way or another.
For a picture, look not at the violent Islamists. Look at the non-violent Muslims. Look at their acts, their statements, their non-actions. That will give you a better picture, whatever it turns out to be.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:06 pm 116. Subotai Bahadur:

#85 Darren

You are not alone in your concern about Beslan type incidents. I have been retired for a bit over a year; but from the Peace Officers I knew in my own Department and others, and from those I am still in contact with; I am fairly sure that the concept is still a major worry. And that fact is good. If people are thinking about it, and what to do, they are more prepared for when it comes.

Shortly after the Nickel Mine attack, I published a short piece on what I called “deathwish” scenarios; hostage takers for which there were not the normal possibilities of negotiations, where the hostage takers intended from the start to die and take a large number of hostages with them, and how to differentiate them from the normal pattern. And also a response pattern, based on what I hoped would be a changed pattern of training, that was a form of what is now called active response. I do not claim any credit for originating this, perhaps for helping spread the idea; but the field was full of people responding to the new “frame” and publishing similar conclusions. And I was quite pleased to see that law enforcement think tanks were embracing active response. It is a beginning. It means that the enemy is not as far inside our OODA loop.

You mentioned the resources available. Yes, on a Federal level, that is roughly what we formally have. But, praise be to whatever Diety is turning the crank this week, we do not have a Federalized law enforcement model yet.

There are a lot of departments which are turning to the active response model. And there are a lot of people who are not formally on the rolls of their SWAT/HRT/SORT or whatever they call it who are available resources. A whole lot of very well trained ex-military have become Peace Officers. In one crew, and it was not the best crew I had in my career; but close, I had a retired SEAL, a Reserve SF E-6, and a retired Marine Sniper. None of them were part of our formal response teams, but their skills were known. And this is in addition to the non-SpecOp combat veterans we had around.

The first steps to coordination and cross training were begun before I retired. Pretty much everybody in my Department and I assume others have had the intro FEMA course so that we are on the same page for interagency emergency response. The first course was typical Federales BS, but the template for identifying personnel and physical resources for call up should be in place. I know that I, like everybody else, was categorized.

In addition, there are places like the one about an hour down the road from me, full of trained, armed [and after Ft. Hood, with special additional motivation] people. In fact, a lot of them. Even with posse commitatus, there are Reserve/ANG units based there that can be called in under state auspices, and I have seen paperwork used to shift someone from Active to Reserve or vice-versa in under a minute. Especially with Special Forces, and the 10th SFG is just down the road. Similar conditions obtain in other parts of the country.

There is also what I call the militia response. If our kids are endangered, you can bet that especially in the West [away from the coast] and the South, that people will self-mobilize. We have a tradition of Sheriff’s posse’s as formal organizations. In our parts of the country, Sheriffs are the supreme law enforcement authority in the county, and part of the normal chain of command. If they have a lick of sense, they will absorb that civilian response in two ways. The first will involve the armed civilians. If they are smart, they will use them, under Sheriff’s Posse command and control, for an extended perimeter to control access to the area so the Tangos do not get reinforcements or supplies, and to act in case the enemy gets out of the inner perimeter. At Beslan, the terrorists escaped the Russian government force’s inner perimeter after killing the kids. They were stopped by the poorly armed parents outside. Our parents are better armed, self-organizing, and far more bloody minded.

The second part will be setting up the logistical response. If it takes a while, the forces surrounding the school will need food, water, sanitary facilities, etc. Getting the community involved in that and on the perimeter will give them an outlet that will not interfere with the professionals.

I am not saying that all is well. We are going to lose a lot of people, and almost all of them are going to be kids. But the response is not going to be Barney Fife any more. We have hope of saving some of them, which we did not have before. Believe me, emergency responders have been extremely worried about a Beslan type situation for a long time, and have been thinking about responses very seriously, especially in rural areas.

There is going to be a phase two though, afterwards, that is not going to be avoidable. What is the reaction of the American people going to be after the small caskets are carried to cemetaries around the country towards a) Muslims in general, and b) the government officials [primarily Democrats, but not completely] who can be viewed as enabling the attacks through deliberate inaction or misdirection? I don’t think anyone has planned seriously for that, and that will be far nastier in the long run than the terrorist attacks.

#90 & 94 buddy larsen

You are right, of course. In a time of crisis, it measures what you are when you make the choice to do right or hide. Spontaneously organizing to resist in any way possible is all you can do. The old template of being able to depend on being rescued by outsiders has been thoroughly shattered over the last decade. Just as with aircraft hijackings now, if taken, you are going to die anyway. If enough resist, you have a chance of living, and at least keeping the enemy from doing even worse harm. Until it is no longer possible to resist, resist; for you have nothing to lose.

As far as the tales around the campfires; that may be as close to immortality as one can get in this world. Being remembered for doing the right thing, and held up as an example for later generations. They get no such examples from the institutions of our society any more. It will have to come from campfires, word of mouth around the dinner table, Samizdat, and yes in time maybe on blogs on the Internet.

#62 LOTM, # 87 Whitehall, #96 Josh

Absolutely. It is a form of preparing the ground. Just as it is considered to be vital by the Democrats to suppress any public expression of opposition to the forceful imposition of their supremacy [culture war anyone?]; the expression of that opposition is critical to resistance.

One of the hallmarks of a Patriot finding a site online that is not politically correct is the realization that he/she is not alone. Social isolation is one of the totalitarian Left’s main tools. The sight of a book, a bumper sticker, a t-shirt that expresses opposition to the almighty State or to the latest Politically Correct received Revelation is a morale boost for our side, and hated by the Left.

Look at political campaigns. The sign in your yard saying “Joe Blow for City Council” is not in and of itself going to convince someone to vote for Joe Blow if he is a Democrat and they are a Republican or vice-versa. Advertising is a matter of establishing or overturning memes. If you and Joe Blow are of the same party, every sign [once a certain critical mass is reached] is an affirmation that you are right and in the mainstream. If you are uncommitted, seeing a lot of signs for Joe Blow sends the message that, “Hmm. a lot of people like Joe Blow. He must be in the mainstream. Maybe it is ok , or safe, to vote for him.”; and it sets the person up to listen to arguments and other media that are pro-Joe Blow with an open mind.

That is why Leftists like propaganda posters, why totalitarians like broadcast media. They are shaping perceptions. That is why if someone goes outside the pattern set by the Left on radio or TV, the Left demands they be forcefully censored.

My car has a couple of stickers that are not PC, albeit somewhat more intellectual; referring to amongst other things Guy Fawkes and to Grey Tribe Sheepdogs. The Left probably does not get them, but if a fellow Patriot sees them, it might brighten his day.

By chance, I am wearing right now a T-shirt I made with an image from an anti-Nazi WW II propaganda poster modified to refer to Obama’s snitch line for reporting politically incorrect private conversations. And I do whistle tunes sometimes. If it is not ‘Garryowen’ which has a specific meaning to my old Department; it usually is ‘Jefferson and Liberty’ or ‘Liberty Tree’, which are obviously old patriot songs arranged for fife.

Anything to show other Patriots that they are not alone, and to shock the uninvolved into realizing that there are a lot of thoughts out there not approved by the White House. While we still can, we should.

Subotai Bahadur

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:09 pm 117. Darren:

Storm-Rider,

I have a mind for war, too, I just want to win it, and that takes actionable intelligence, the kind you get from people who know the culture and can identify the bad actors who will dismiss the slaughter of other Muslims as “making them martyrs”. Sigint we have out the wazoo, and will no matter what. Humint we don’t have, and we absolutely need.

Tridents flinging themselves out of the ocean are not going to go unnoticed. Russia and China will not be mollified that our warheads are all set to airburst to minimize fallout, and it is a very large bet that the Russians and Chinese don’t just launch on warning. What do you say about an unintentional MAD? Oops?

Islam had a conversation, for centuries. It all stopped when Ibn Rushd was outvoted by Al-Ghazali in the 11th Century. Ibn Rushd would have been a great blogger, his “The Incoherence of the Incoherence” is maybe the first Fisking in written literature. Western philosophers of the day and of later years paid attention to what Ibn Rushd said and the Muslims disdained it, which is at least part of the reason they have a picture of the moon on their flag, and we actually walked on it.

There was a while where Christianity stopped having conversations, we called it the Middle Ages. The Renaissance changed a lot of things about Christianity and our society in general. The Muzzies have never had a Renaissance of their own, they could use one. Maybe it will come when, as Habu implies, enough adherents die trying to prove their faith is superior to our engineering. I would prefer to see it come without the bloodshed, but if the bloodshed has to come, I sure want to win.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:13 pm 118. Whitehall:

I have three stickers on the back of my late model car:

1) a California state flag sticker with the grizzly bear

2) a “Don’t Tread on Me” Gadsen flag sticker

3) a “Dump Boxer – Chuck DeVore” political sticker

Maybe that’s one or two too many.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:21 pm 119. Darren:

Subotai,

The two Fort Hood police officers both did exactly what armed responders are supposed to do (nowadays, post-Columbine) — head right for the shooter and engage. I’m glad they did, it tells me that the AR mindset is being deployed all the way down to the small police force level. The whole ‘contain and negotiate’ thing has no meaning for a suicidal person, the Beslan killers were going out one way or the other. It’s dreadful to think that you have to operate as if the hostages are already dead, but that was pretty much the case in Beslan, the job of the responders is to try to get as many living out as possible and kill all of the bad guys in the short term, and mourn the casualties later.

Given the cost-to-calamity ratio I am frankly surprised that the Mohammed/Malvo model or the Mumbai-type attack hasn’t been tried in the United States by AQ or related groups. Maybe it has been planned and intercepted, but it seems so obvious a strategy to scare the bejeezus out of a population that there must be some reason it hasn’t been done. AQ tends to look for high-profile targets, this is a weakness in their operational thinking that I believe may come from the top. OBL is enamored of the Big Strike, the terrorist version of Shock and Awe, but those are decidedly hard to pull off. We can at least be thankful for the poor strategic choices of our opponents, and prepare if they decide to lower their sights to more attainable targets.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:26 pm 120. Richard Aubrey:

To follow up my earlier comment, now that Beslan has been mentioned–and the thought of which will ruin my weekend–it was non-violent Muslims who pre-positioned weapons in the Beslan school house.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:36 pm 121. Storm-Rider:

Not all of the Borg were soldiers, but the Borg soldiers were supported by an infra-structure of the “non-violent” within their collective. “Resistance is Futile” could apply to the Ummah (and the allied Marxist collective) as well as the Borg. Where does Obama fit in?

Resist.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:46 pm 122. buddy larsen:

D/119; it may turn out to have been our powerful ground offensive power in place in Iraq which has given the USA respite since 9/11/01. Nothing like having the secret services of the usual suspects making sure no wild AQs hit USA again so long as there is only sand between the Abrams tanks and the Tehran and Damascus lairs of the great mahounds. If this is true, then we shall know it soon enough.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:56 pm 123. dan:

Christianity stopped having conversations during the dark ages? Really. Who told you that – Francis Bacon? And this Islamic inspiration for the renaissance; i love this theory. It is false. Avicenna and Averroes & Co. are not Islam having “a conversation” with the Academy and Hellenism.

By the way I did not mean that in that cliche sense of “conversation,” i meant literally: there are no conversations in the koran.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:58 pm 124. marymcl:

Habu who cares about your hobbies? It isn’t about you. And congratulations on a masterpiece of condescending projection. If you think the expression of a contrary opinion is an attempt to curb your free speech, then all I can say is you sound like a self-absorbed teenager.

Is it useful idiocy to support the mission in Iraq? Is it useful idiocy to support the democratic opposition in Iran? You’re hardly the only person here who has a mind for war. There’s not a doubt in my mind that more innocent civilians will be killed in this war and furthermore that the enemy leaves us no choice about it. That’s not the issue and you know it.

Let’s cut to the chase, shall we? When you say “kill them all” I take you to mean ALL – including those Muslims living here, adults and children alike. When I called you out about this on a previous thread, you tried to rationalize your way out of it by saying the children of 1988 were the jihadis of today. As I’d made it clear I was objecting to your “kill them all” drumbeat for the sake of the American Muslim children of today, the sidelong implication of your response was that those children will without a doubt be the jihadis of tomorrow, so better to just kill them now. The PLO used the same logic to justify Maalot and God knows how many other atrocities. Kill them while they’re still children and you won’t have to worry about what they’ll do when they grow up. It was a cowardly tactic then and it hasn’t improved with age.

Like I said, it’s a free country and you’re entitled to your opinion. But you’re not the only one, and just because I reject the Yasser Arafat theory of war doesn’t mean I haven’t a mind for pursuing the war we’re in. And if the point of your response here was to make it known that you’re more of a man than I am, well, no kidding, but thanks anyway for the compliment.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:07 pm 125. Darren:

Okay, dan, the Christian world stopped a lot of inquiry. Maybe they were stopping to digest everything the Romans did, or nobody wrote down the formula for that nifty cement that set under water, but the Middle Ages pre-Renaissance were not known for their vibrant contributions to the World of Tomorrow in terms of science and philosophy, at least compared to later centuries. At least, that is the history I am told.

The world of Islam was ahead of us in the 10th century because they actually read what the Greeks wrote. Once the Greeks stopped being important and inquiry was found to be useless compared to the unfolding majesty of the will of Allah, they stagnated and we blew past them on a variety of fronts. It was a tremendous mistake, but not one they are incapable of reversing. It is highly unlikely that they will reverse it, particularly when >50% of KSA’s college graduates get degrees in ‘religious studies’. I’d say we pull out and let the infrastructure there fall apart and see if they can eat their oil, except the Chinese would be right behind us with an offer of technical assistance.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:24 pm 126. Richard Aubrey:

The suggestion, whether it’s been made or not, to “kill them all” is irrelevant.
If Wretchard’s conjectures hold water, a great many will be killed, enough to slake the bloodlust of any.
The question of what happens if the conjecture is first manifested in half a dozen simultaneous Beslans in this country is perhaps more immediate.
It would pay the American Muslims to clean up their act(s), including kick out Saudi supported imams, start snitching on their violent buddies, and change their theology to not call for world-wide Islam.
Various other things, as well.
My conjecture about this: Not bloody likely.
Therefore….

One of the objections to the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW II is “they didn’t do anything”. Which means we didn’t see even a tiny fraction of that group committing sabotage, espionage, sedition, or any other anti-American activity.
If you say it three times fast, it begins to look as if “they didn’t do anything” is a serious issue. Which could be inverted to “what if they did do something”, meaning what if a tiny fraction of the group committed espionage, sabotage, sedition, mass murder, and so forth?
By the implicit logic of “they didn’t do anything”, some government attention to the entire group would be justified.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:34 pm 127. Konyok:

Here is an interesting examination of this thread’s topic from Melik Kaylan writing in Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/12/major-nidal-hassan-fort-hood-muslim-opinions-columnists-melik-kaylan.html

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:44 pm 128. buddy larsen:

Mm, may i stick my schnozz in and mention that you have to have read habu for awhile –what he does, and i’m pretty sure it’s completely intentional, is break down the walled-off area of imagination and prevent folks from pretending they never hoid of it. Like war paint –neither the blue on a blue Celt warrior nor the eagle feather in the hair of a Sioux horseman can hurt a flea, but they do announce to the enemy, as well as to the mere rival but potential enemy, that you are willing and able, if attacked, to completely let go of normal constraint and enter into a completely different state of being.

this in turn exploits that particular last-ditch chance for peace, the sub-deterrent that might be characterized as “whew, no way, man –that SOB is crazy !!!” :-O

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:48 pm 129. Habu:

124. marymcl

Well it’s obvious that you’ve always been a cookie baker and never a warrior.

Let me tell you something granny. When a kid, a child, levels an AK-47 at you and pulls the trigger, or lays an anti-personnel mine to kill you, well they qualify to die.

Yeah, I’m not in any avoidance syndrome … kill the little bastards. A child with a killing device can kill you as dead as an adult and if you’re at war you can’t afford the luxury of deciding who is the bad kid. Those who know a battle is going on or about to happen are no where to be found. Those who are around are in a special catagory and represent an honest threat to your survival.

And hey, what’s wrong with birding?

Now, go bake more cookies.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:52 pm 130. steeple:

Perhaps a pragmatic and potentially naive twist on the debate going on here.

We here at BC are all about defending the hard-earned freedoms that we have been blessed with by those who have sacrificed before us and others who continue do so today. Our vision is that we would not only defend what we have inherited but continue to build on the legacy of a democratic republic that provides an environment of individual and group freedoms countered by personal responsibility, of free markets countered by an appropriate amount of regulation in order to protect all parties involved, and strong defense for Rule of Law so that personal and property rights are respected. Maybe this reflects my personal bias, and its a very simple overarching synopsis, but its how I think about our country.

We have also been the greatest melting pot experiment in the history of humankind, and the diversity of welcoming a mix of all sorts of cultural, intellectual, race and religious backgrounds have served us well for over 200 years.

We are now faced though with an outlier religion/culture/cult that appears to offer more downside risk to our American culture than the benefit that they offer on an aggregate basis. Clearly, there must be some very productive Muslims living here that are loyal and appreciative of this country. But one would not be rational if that belief isn’t shaken by the actions of seemingly reasonable Muslim actors like Atta and Hasan that ultimately prove quite different from initial impressions.

Admittedly, it is very difficult to measure the reward that Muslims bring to the US, but the downside risk has become unacceptable to me at least. How many productive Muslims are offest in their benefit to our country by one Major Hasan? We could probably get answers in this forum ranging from 50 to 1 to all of them to 1.

So at what point do we decide that the risks are not worth the rewards of having Muslims in our melting pot? I for one am already of the opinion that our country would be better off without this group here. I realize that there isn’t a national consensus on this, but I would confidently say that the country is moving in that direction. For those who would call that racist or xenophobic, I would 1) first call it pragmatic and 2) challenge them to prove that the risk to our country of allowing members of this group to remain here is worth the reward.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:00 pm 131. Storm-Rider:

Ordinary Muslims today are in the same predicament as the ordinary German and Japanese citizen during World War II; they are under the heel of a violent, totalitarian and militant legal system. As they haven’t overthrown the totalitarian legal system, they have become part of its infrastructure. Is it possible to amputate the legal system (Sharia) and military forces of Islam without destroying the infrastructure? This may be possible in my opinion, but our government has not outlined the struggle in such terms.

President Bush declared war on “terror,” but he couldn’t utter the words “War on Islamic Jihad;” much less declare war on Islamic Sharia Law. How is it even remotely possible to destroy both Islamic Jihad and Islamic Sharia if we can’t even identify them as the enemy? This is why some find it necessary to target Islam as a whole – because the cowards in our government will not name the enemy.

Sharia Law must be destroyed.

Marxist Law (”Living Constitution”) must be destroyed.

Cato: “Carthago delenda est!” “Carthage must be destroyed!”

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:02 pm 132. Richard Aubrey:

Storm Rider.
Many Muslims in democratic countries think sharia ought to prevail, along with killing apostates, and blowing up trains, and shooting soldiers at Ft. Hood is a good thing.
Your dividing might have to resemble some kind of lobotomy.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:09 pm 133. steeple:

Habu, I respect what you bring to this forum. Very much I do.

But I have to defend Mary and what she brings to BC. The cookie comments are out of line.

We can have heated disagreements over our ideas and beliefs without disparaging each other.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:11 pm 134. twobyfour:

tymijan, there was supposed to be an invisible, yet perceptible smiley at the end of that sentence. Sorry that it was more invisible than perceptible to you.

Lonely? Here? No chance!

-*-

marymcl, ad hominem habu? Cripes! Count to 10 and if not enough, try 20.

-*-

Dan, Francis Bacon? Pray tell. If you said Roger Bacon, there would be some sense there, but Francis… no, no light bulb filaments turning bright.

-*-

Richard Aubrey, One of the objections to the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW II is “they didn’t do anything”. Which means we didn’t see even a tiny fraction of that group committing sabotage, espionage, sedition, or any other anti-American activity.

That objection, though a part of the common mythology, is incorrect. The whole internment idea got its impetus with interceptions of communications between West Coast Japanese and the Imperial Japan.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:13 pm 135. twobyfour:

Et Habu dicet: “Et tu, maymcl!”

Fun.
Or not.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:16 pm 136. Storm-Rider:

Richard Aubrey/132,
Many Germans thought Nazi law ought to prevail – many Germans paid the price for that belief. Any Muslim who advocates totalitarian (arbitrary) Sharia law is the enemy of the United States; and by the same token, any Marxist (the real Marxists run from that label you must understand, and the others are their useful idiots) who advocates the arbitrary “Living Constitution” (Orwellian Newspeak for Dead Constitution) is the enemy of the United States.

No, government of the people, by the people, for the people is destined to perish from the earth – unless we, and eventually our leaders, name the enemies of our Declaration and Constitution.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:22 pm 137. Habu:

133. steeple

Please refer to her opening comment on this thread toward me.

103. marymcl:
Good grief Habu, are you so lost in your sauce …….

Now Steeple you may want to provide cover for her and finagle all sorts of alternative reasons why she used the word “sauce”, but I assure you I wasn’t born yesterday.

Cookies was a proportional response.

Could I simply ignore her altogether? Yes, but then, as I previously pointed out I’d miss out on her angst which eventually puffs up to full schadenfreude.

Then she didn’t like my birding. That’s not being very tweet to me.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:41 pm 138. twobyfour:

If we do not count NOI (which are considered fruitloops by mainstream muslims, useful but still fruitloops), there may be about 2 million muslims in US proper. I’d use the Soddy princeling Najaf’s figures (”Radicals? No, there is only a tiny fraction of them amongst muslims, mere 10%”), then we have about 200k radicalized islamist elemenets in our midst. The likely proportion of actual SoI and the logistic support network is 1 to 9. So that gives us 20k Hasans.

Once the brown waste matter meets the rotating blades, the internment may be the best option to avoid a harm to the innocent (90%) and contain the harmful radicals. 2 million is not that many and the current dossiers can be used to sort out the two groups and separate them.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:56 pm 139. Habu:

We have Supreme Court justices that are not opposed to the incorporation of shiara law and other countries laws being applied here.

Another thought: Certain sections of Dearborn are darn lucky we don’t subscribe to the lex talionis concept. Fort Hood is just the latest terrorist attack on the US.

I’m guessing any member of this audience can write down at least ten attacks, and there are hundreds worldwide. When is enough , enough?

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:57 pm 140. Habu:

138. twobyfour

Yes,yes, contain the radicals. And we’ll do it for the children!

Also.

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims – approximately 300 million people.
The most logical way to determine the percentage of Muslims who are salafi/fundamentalists – a precondition to jihad – is to consider the most recent elections in Islamic countries. For example, the fundamentalist Islamic group HAMAS received 65% of the popular vote in “Palestine.” The somewhat secular Fatah, at least by comparison to HAMAS, won only 30% of the votes.
While he was not popularly elected, Turkey’s president, Ahmet Necdet Sezar, is a fundamentalist Muslim. Turkey’s parliament, which selected him by a 70% majority, is formed as a result of a popular mandate and it is predominately composed of fundamentalist Muslims. Turkey’s Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is the nation’s most popular leader. He is a convicted felon who believes: “Mosques are our barracks, domes are our helmets, minarets our bayonets, and believers our soldiers.” He won a landslide victory in 2002 – and Turkey is considered to be the most moderate Islamic state.
The newly elected fundamentalist Islamic nutcase ruling Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, earned 62% of the popular vote. The most moderate Islamic challenger garnered less than twenty percent support. The notion that the majority of Iranians are hostile to the Shia mullahs, and are poised for a revolution, is a myth
In Lebanon, politicians got all excited when 50,000 people marched in support of democracy. The following week when 500,000 people protested in support of Islam/Submission, the percentage of fundamentalist Muslims became clear.
Fundamentalist Islamic candidates in the most recent Iraqi elections, those individuals who belonged to clerical parties like the Islamic Revolution in Iraq founded by Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, won 65% of the seats in the new parliament.
While opinion surveys can be suspect, and are often tainted by the manner in which a question is phrased, there are two that are worth mentioning. Opinion polls taken by the British Government reveal that 70% of Iraqis think killing Americans is justified, something that is impossible to justify outside the conditioning of fundamentalist Islam. The rising death toll of American troops and stunning escalation in terror in Iraq give credence to those numbers. Polls taken in Pakistan, where bin Laden is being harbored, reveal that 70% of Pakistanis view the world’s most famous Islamic terrorist very favorably. In fact, Osama has become the most popular name for boys in the region.
Therefore, based upon the most objective data available to us, at least 60% of all Muslims have the potential to be jihadists by way of their fundamentalist voting patterns. That is to say, Islam has grown substantially closer to its salafi, and thus terrorist, roots over the past decade. It is safe to say that 750 million Muslims are fundamentalists trying to follow Allah’s orders and Muhammad’s example. And as fundamentalists, they are potential jihadists.
http://tinyurl.com/yk29lnx

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:02 pm 141. dan:

Francis Bacon – Francis Bacon? Is it Francis; I think it’s Francis? Author of Novum Organum, wherein he characterized as “the dark ages” all that had gone before who’d pretended to knowledge without having used his Novum Organum. Occasionally mistaken for Shakespeare? But “dark ages” – propaganda. Of course they were dark, but so was the 16th century pretty dark. North Korea’s dark. The Kush: dark.

Speaking of which I highly recommend, if I may, “Arabia, The Gulf & The West” by JB Kelly, which really brings home the 8th century reality that the Arabian peninsula’s people lived up until something like 1960, or maybe now. King Fahd i think i had a revolver emptied into his head for trying to change it. Much of the world: dark. Mao’s mother’s name? “Seventh Sister Wen,” because she was the seventh daughter of the Wen family. ‘Hey you, #7 – get me some goddamn goose fat for this watermill or else you and #1 – 6 are gonna starve to death.” Dark.

Nevertheless, the Renaissance was accomplished by not more than 100 men, said Nietzsche, and probably he was right.

As far as killing, I agree with Habu and Stalin: No man, no problem. Stalin, whom Churchill thought was very wise. But you don’t need a quote, Everyone always already knows This.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:05 pm 142. twobyfour:

Habu, sauce–cookies, a proportional response? No wonder she thought you’ve lost it! Let me suggest dumplings. Or mashed potatoes.

Birdings, tweet… hehe.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:13 pm 143. Storm-Rider:

Great article by Pamela Geller at American Thinker:

“I have watched in abject horror the elites’ stunning reaction to this act of war. The denial, the submission, the excuses, the dodging, the self-flagellation, the shame — the deceiving of the American people by the media, the military, society, law enforcement, authorities and politicians, all the way up to and including the White House — amounts to the enforcement of Sharia law. Sharia law forbids criticism of Islam. And here we are…Devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service. Would Patton have recruited Nazis into his army?”

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/it_isnt_political_correctness.html

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism; and our Marxists are allied with the Islamists. Marxist law (”Living Constitution”) is arbitrary law. Sharia Law is arbitrary law. Arbitrary law is totalitarian law. Totalitarian law is no law, i.e.: the law of the jungle.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:16 pm 144. twobyfour:

Habu, well aware of the situation world wide. One may dispute the figures one way or another, but no matter what the tally is, it is not a purdy picture.
But I think the situation in US is not that dire, for time being, though Soddy injected imams are trying to do their damnest.

Remove the cornerstone and the whole edifice will come crushing down. Tis is the only thing I see that would render the whole one and half millennium episode to a close.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:30 pm 145. Lifeofthemind:

These ad hominem remarks are simply uncalled for. They do not advance an argument. We are fighting, when it comes to that, for something.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:33 pm 146. Habu:

145. Lifeofthemind

This jarhead agrees with the squid. No more attacks involving how old and ugly most of us are or how much we don’t drink or how bad our cookies are.

We are fighting here for free speech and those other thingy’s in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

Off that for a moment and onto something coming down the road at us in 2011. A huge, bigger than the last reset are Alt-A and subprime mortgages. If you even thought the worst was over think again. We’re already into Weimarch Republic money territory so if you’re now in debt, just do what the Doughboys did…go to Anacostia on the Potomic and set up a tent city ..cause this time there’s no saving anything. They can just shoot us there and dump the bodies in the river.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:54 pm 147. buddy larsen:

twas neither Bacon, Francis nor Roger, twas the German, Bitzenkraut. Bacon Bitzenkraut

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:12 pm 148. twobyfour:

dan/141

Francis Bacon – Francis Bacon? Is it Francis; I think it’s Francis? Author of Novum Organum,

Ya, Francis.

wherein he characterized as “the dark ages” all that had gone before who’d pretended to knowledge without having used his Novum Organum.

I remember! Yes, that was his contention. He was so p**** off that people were confusing him with that no good Roger Bacon 4 centuries earlier who had the temerity to lay foundations for Western science.

BTW, there was a dark age in Europe cca 500CE to 900CE, based on tree rings, most of the days of that era reminded of Wet Coast depressive greyness. Probably yields were not that great which contributed to the gloomy character of times. Vikings could not stand it anymore about 700CE, and were on the move to find a cure for their flashes of arthritis, Southeast between Dnieper and Volha, Northwest hopping from Iceland to Groenland to Vinland, Southwest to Normandy and then Mediteranean, just in time to catch the medieval climatic optimum that did not last long enough.

There is a myth that without Arabs preserving the Greek manuscripts, that heritage would have been lost to Europe. True, there were some important segments that were obtained through Arabs. But most of the Greek and Roman literature that we know today has been preserved through early monasteries, recopied and renewed as the parchment supply allowed.

Nevertheless, the Renaissance was accomplished by not more than 100 men, said Nietzsche, and probably he was right.

Without the fleet of merchants (where fleet also means their ships), these 100 men would have a little chance. These 100 pushed upward, while the merchant fleet expanded the perimeter.

As far as killing, I agree with Habu and Stalin: No man, no problem. Stalin, whom Churchill thought was very wise. But you don’t need a quote, Everyone always already knows This.

Habu views equated to Stalin’s? That is a bit deranged. Just think about it what is the difference, kindly.

Muslim can become always something else when demon is no longer in possession of deeds to human souls, while Islam will be always Islam. I’d go after Baal. Trust me, it would work like magic.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:15 pm 149. sirius_sir:

Christianity does not teach violence toward others, though there is the curious passage in Luke 22:36 advising the disciples to ‘buy a sword’. Darren @ 112

Darren, Habu, et al…

For what it’s worth, there’s also this: Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

Now, if I was of a mind to, I could make an argument for taking this passage quite bloody literally. Certainly the crusaders did so. That certain Islamists still answer the ‘call to the sword’ from their prophet shows that they are literalist followers of an unreformed religion. If Christianity could learn to blunt the edge of such words, why should we think that Islam can’t also?

Not that I have any illusions we are not now in the midst of, and still in for, one hell of a fight.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:27 pm 150. Charles:

112. Darren:
There are a billion Muslims in the world.

There is a baby-bathwater issue here, and while you can rip off a list of Koranic quotes to support your assertion, the fact that there are so few Muslims (proportionate to the population) acting as those scriptures seem to intend suggests that the majority of them don’t see it that way.
……..
So only say 5% of the muslim population reads the warlike passages in the Koran. We’re talking about 50 million bombers.

I wouldn’t advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That said it does not look like there is an upside to co habiting anywhere with the muslims. and it doesn’t matter the actual pecking order or dog status. the muslims don’t get along with their african neighbors even though they are top dogs there. they don’t get along with their indian subcontinent and south asian neighbors as peer dogs. they don’t get along with their northern european neighbors as bottom dogs. all their border areas are troubled.

They are showing that slowly over time their relations with the people in the new world will get worse.

Therefor the first appropriate thing to do is stop all migration of moslems to the USA. the second thing to do is to stop their mullahs from preaching in the prisons or giving them military chaplains. the third thing to do is to strip them of any access to publicly sanctioned functions. strip them of all access to public moneys. keep them out of all official functions.

what we are currently doing is showing them that violence pays off; therefor we will get more of it.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:16 pm 151. buckets:

Mary,

I admire the effort to curb the excess that is Habu, but it’s best to move on. Everybody knows the posters who repeat the same lines over and again; the schtick wears thin after a while.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:56 pm 152. ledger:

Rudy Giuliani calls the Fort Hood shooting a terrorist attack – several times and in very clear terms. Although Giuliani is talking about the risks of trying KSM in a civilian court in NYC Rudy does firmly state that Obama refuses to call the Fort Hood shooting a terrorists attack. This is a long clip from Ace but it is good.

http://tinyurl.com/yld2zot

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:24 pm 153. Fletcher Christian:

Islam shows its tribal roots by being essentially idolatrous; when a Muslim prays he is supposed to face towards Mecca and the Black Stone.

What would happen if that stone were suddenly to vanish into a cloud of rapidly expanding vapour? Preferably during Hajj.

One Stone to rule them all, One Stone to find them, One Stone to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them; in the land of Saudi where the Shadows lie.

Time to introduce the Stone to the fate of the Ring.

Nov 14, 2009 - 3:59 am 154. Dave:

marymcl: The purpose of going to war is to
(a) reduce enemy capabilities and
(b) render them harmless

(needless to say, (b) above has to be qualified
with “to the maximum extent possible and practical”)

I know of no time in history where indiscriminate killing accomplished that purpose. Not at the strategic level. Tactically there are numerous examples of some temporary advantage being gained but such advantage inevitably proves ephemereal.

There have been people die by my hand, both directly and indirectly. I lose no sleep over that. But I do like to pick out the ones who need killing. Get more bucks for your bangs that way.

In this current war, one factor is so obvious
that one would have to be from the Completely Inept and Assinine to overlook it.

The desire of the jihadists is to control other Muslims. They do not really care all that much about us, except for the fact that we keep them from their heart’s desire.

Those targeted Muslims have been jacked around for a millennia or more and whatever
notions of resistance their (flawed) culture may have had at one time or other has been lost. That is why there is so little resistance to the extremists.

Inspiring a (much) higher degree of fortitude
among those masses is the key to success.
Just ask General Petraeus.

Not that there will be any single program or course of action that will work everywhere. Far from it. Muslims are too diverse and located in too many places for that. It is the general principle that has to be followed. Not specific measures.

The wisest words on all this came shortly after 9/11. Article was entitled
Ancient History Lives in STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL
OF ISLAM. (emphasis added by me. Insight from that Wiley Old Soldier, T. R. Fehrenbach)

Yes, we are in a fight for our very existence. However, we are the “collateral damage”. Those capital letters tell you what the fight is about.

‘Nuff said. BTW; I do enjoy your sometimes pungent comments. Your addressing somebody as “wormtongue” was particularly amusing.
I like to refer to him as “Near Beer”.

Now, can I have some more of those cookies please?

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:43 am 155. Storm-Rider:

The purpose of going to war is to:
(a) reduce enemy capabilities and
(b) render them harmless to the maximum extent possible and practical
(c) gain a strategic advantage (aggressor) or defend life and liberty

Dave: “I know of no time in history where indiscriminate killing accomplished that purpose. Not at the strategic level. Tactically there are numerous examples of some temporary advantage being gained but such advantage inevitably proves ephemereal.”

Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) is Mutual Assured Indiscriminate Killing (MAIK). During the “Cold War” (World War III) the threat of MAIK prevented nuclear war between the Soviet Union and United States, and saved millions of lives. MAIK assumes a rational desire for civilized life on both sides. Since this assumption is not valid in our current war with Totalitarian Islam, it can be assumed the other side will seek to gain the strategic (not tactical) advantage which they will derive from the use of nuclear weapons against our cities. What do we do then? More importantly, what do we do to prevent this from happening? This discussion should be primarily focused on our enemy rather than on Habu.

We are engaged in World War IV, not World War II.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:01 am 156. Storm-Rider:

Dave: “I know of no time in history where indiscriminate killing accomplished that purpose. Not at the strategic level.”

The Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (indiscriminate killing) brought WW2 to an immediate close; saved millions of lives on both sides, and accomplished that purpose on the strategic level.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:32 am 157. Storm-Rider:

BTW Dave; my father, after surviving the Battle of Saipan (God rest his courageous soul), was on the Island of Tinian, and he watched the Enola Gay take off. If not for the Enola Gay missions dad would have likely perished in the planned campaign to wage conventional war against the Japanese Main Islands, and you wouldn’t have to be putting up with my comments. Why do you suppose it was so necessary to bring Japan to her knees? What were the Japanese planning for us – and for hundreds of millions of other innocent people? What are the similarities between the Japanese during World War II and the Totalitarian Islamists of today – or of the Nakba in 1453?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_516

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:53 am 158. Marie Claude:

Marymcl,

uh Habu is the nice vet that you could meet on your way back from school when he himself would be on his way back from hunting or fishing, and when you would look at his tools and preys, and listen to his words, you couldn’t decide wether he is scaring or not, but a smile, and an incomprehensible discourse, would reassure you though ! I have met such vets from Dien Dien phu when I was so young, I was a little scared too, and when I finally got aware of their experience, I thought it was kind of miracle if they were still alive, happy to enjoy some primitive priviledge ! also they would talk of their enemis the same way Habu is talking of his’ !

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:29 am 159. Doug:

Tragedy or Scandal?

The brain-addled “diversity” of General Casey will get some of us killed, and keep all of us cowed.

– MARK STEYN

“Diversity” is one of those words designed to absolve you of the need to think. Likewise, a belief in “multiculturalism” doesn’t require you to know anything at all about other cultures, just to feel generally warm and fluffy about them. Heading out from my hotel room the other day, I caught a glimpse of that 7-Eleven video showing Major Hasan wearing “Muslim” garb to buy a coffee on the morning of his murderous rampage. And it wasn’t until I was in the taxi cab that something odd struck me: He was an American of Arab descent. But he was wearing Pakistani dress — that’s to say, a “Punjabi suit,” as they call it in Britain, or the shalwar kameez, to give it its South Asian name. For all the hundreds of talking heads droning on about “diversity” across the TV networks, it was only Tarek Fatah, writing in the Ottawa Citizen, who pointed out that no Arab males wear this get-up — with one exception: Those Arab men who got the jihad fever and went to Afghanistan to sign on with the Taliban and al-Qaeda. In other words, Major Hasan’s outfit symbolized the embrace of an explicit political identity entirely unconnected with his ethnic heritage.

Mr. Fatah would seem to be a genuine “multiculturalist”: That’s to say, he’s attuned to often very subtle “diversities” between cultures. Whereas the professional multiculturalist sees the 7-Eleven video and coos, “Aw, look. He’s wearing . . . well, something exotic and colorful, let’s not get hung up on details. Celebrate diversity, right? Can we get him in the front row for the group shot? We may be eligible for a grant.”

The brain-addled “diversity” of General Casey will get some of us killed, and keep all of us cowed. In the days since the killings, the news reports have seemed increasingly like a satirical novel the author’s not quite deft enough to pull off, with bizarre new Catch 22s multiplying like the windmills of your mind: If you’re openly in favor of pouring boiling oil down the throats of infidels, then the Pentagon will put down your e-mails to foreign jihadists as mere confirmation of your long established “research interests.” If you’re psychotic, the Army will make you a psychiatrist for fear of provoking you. If you gun down a bunch of people, within an hour the FBI will state clearly that we can all relax, there’s no terrorism angle, because, in our over-credentialized society, it doesn’t count unless you’re found to be carrying Permit #57982BQ3a from the relevant State Board of Jihadist Licensing.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:33 am 160. Storm-Rider:

Diversity of culture, i.e.: cuisine, music, art, architecture, etc. is OK with me; but diversity of values is not OK. American Values are summed up in the Declaration of Independence – “an expression of the American mind” as Thomas Jefferson said of it. Any culture which is politically opposed to our American Values is an anti-American culture, and any violently opposed is an enemy culture.

Marxism and Political Islam are allied, totalitarian, anti-American cultures; and their wars with us make them enemy cultures.

Nov 14, 2009 - 10:31 am 161. buddy larsen:

D/159; Now THERE’s an idea –get the jihadists into the healthcare bill –hell, get them into SEIU. Once regiqtered and on the lifelong winky wink dole, they’ll realize they can kill more Americans from the inside out than from the outside in. Then we’ll have peace and without having to sacrifice our lofty self-image as multi-super-culti-man.

the new Nyquist weekly Jeremaid is up: How the Faithful City Became a Harlot plunges deeper yet toward the extreme low frequency …lublub…lublub of the beating heart of darkness in the mud in the deep at the bottom of the Washing Tundy Sea.

Nov 14, 2009 - 10:36 am 162. Whitehall:

Speaking of worshiping a black stone, what about this?

http://www.inetours.com/Pages/images/Financial/Bankers-Heart_6404.jpg

This is the “Banker’s Heart” located in front of the Bank of America Headquarters on California Street in San Francisco.

Of course, the Christian religion explicitly warns against worshiping money – but we do it anyway.

Nov 14, 2009 - 11:14 am 163. dan:

O i’m not equating habu and stalin. just raising stalin to raise churchill to agree with habu: ultimately, you *can* kill enough jihadis to break their spirit. seems to me – as in iraq – we’ve tried every other better-natured plan. so, time for the ultimate plan, Pheonix 2009, probablu with far fewer indigs. stalin was a genius though, by the way, so it wouldn’t be all bad anyhow.

Nov 14, 2009 - 1:04 pm 164. Quig:

Habu & Marie Claude’s vets were (are?) the rough men who make it possible for the rest of us to sleep securely.
Honor and respect them.
I thank them for their service.

Nov 14, 2009 - 1:49 pm 165. buddy larsen:

people that are ready and willing to fight have to fight far more seldom than people who make it clear they hate the thought of fighting. Peace activists bring war, war fighters keep peace. FDR sought to bring peace out of WWII by demanding unconditional surrender halfway through the war, which turned out to’ve resurged the enemy hawks just as they were beginning to suffer major loss of confidence and public support.

***

SR/157; re your ‘who knows what could have happened’ –two Japanese subs wrecks just discovered off hawaii –one of ‘rm may’ve been involved with the bioweapons projects ehj militarists were trying to weaponize as the war ended.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=japanese+subs&FORM=BWFD

Nov 14, 2009 - 2:38 pm 166. Dave:

Storm Rider: Your #155, Part (c);

Gaining a strategic advantage is NOT reserved for aggressors. It is a requirement in
reducing enemy capabilities regardless of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

The invasion of Iraq and (finally) figuring out a successful means of occupying same has given Uncle Sam a strategic advantage. Does that mean Uncle Sam is the aggressor? Some say yes, some say no. The strategic advantage
is irrelevant to the substance of both arguments.

(Having said that much, I must now add that
having a strategic advantage is what motivates
both sides. In favor of said advantage are those who wish America well. Need I talk about the others? Nonetheless, the substance of aggression or non-aggression remains apart
from presence or absence of strategic advantage.)

Moving on to another area: Mutually Assured
Destruction did absolutely nothing to keep the peace. In fact is came close to destroying same. What did keep the peace was the Eisenhower doctrine of “massive retaliation at a time and place of our choosing”. Had it been continued, we might have won the Cold War a bit sooner. Or might not have. Either way, we would not have had as close of a call as we had.

General Dan Graham repeatedly stated that MAD
really meant insane. He was totally right.
Look at that first word, “mutual”. That meant that the armed forces of these United States were obliged to see to it that in the event of hostilities America got destroyed too. MAD was one of those “Strange” doctrines that got implemented after JFK installed a new SecDef. It along with many other things of that era was part of what I
call the “gotterdamerung” mentality. If things were not utopian, why it would not be fair to have any survivors at all. Yep, that qualifies MAD as indiscriminate all right. And of damned little value. Fortunately, enough of Ike’s principles held long enough for R. Reagan to take over and
institute/reinstitute “we win, they lose”.

What you seem to be doing IMLTHO is confusing
“area fire” with “indiscriminate”. Also, the usual tendency people have to ass u me that a larger degree of destruction equates to non-discrimination.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki worked as well as they did not because of the number of dead but because (a) it showed the Japs that we had
beaten them to the nuclear punch in spite of their superior ability to mass-produce nukes if they could just have gotten a hold of fissionable material. AND (b) because we delivered those two love taps after slugging our way across the Pacific and were in position to successfully invade regardless of cost. ALSO (c) because we were darned careful to nuke where the Emperor was not. Needed to keep the goofy little murderous dickhead around long enough to broadcast the surrender order. In short, Curtis LeMay
d-i-s-c-r-i-m-i-n-a-t-e-d.

If you will examine the development of our nuclear arsenal since that time I think you will notice that our nukes are Uncle Billys.
They are there for the primary purpose of destroying property, not people. That is anything but indiscriminate.

Oh yes. What do you do when you encounter a foe who is of such tender years as to normally be considered a non-combatant? For that answer, look up Fred Benteen at the Washita. And what do you do when your foe is a people who are intractable? I suggest reading “Destruction of a People” by T. R. Fehrenbach. Neither example involves
indiscriminate killing.

I hope this illuminates where I am coming from. Now draw your own conclusions.

Nov 14, 2009 - 4:09 pm 167. Dave:

Buddy; Don’t know if unconditional surrender was right or wrong. Will agree with you that it was publicized at very poor time.

Now what role did Churchill have in all this?
Was he an instigator or just going along with Old Rubber Legs.

And what is the time frame between the ultimatum and the Surrender of Stalingrad?
This could be very important as to the Churchillian role. Remember that the fundamental flaw with the 1918 Armistice was that the German Army was not forced to surrender. That would have taken Pershing a few more months to accomplish. Instead they were surrendered by some wishy-washy civilians. That led to the flawed mindset permeating Germans and helped enable Herr Schickelgruber.

Now with the Soviets having forced a massive surrender at Stalingrad, Churchhill would have deemed it critical that the Democracies
one-up Stalin by effecting the unconditional surrender of the whole darned Reich. And he would have been right, too.

So what is your take on all this?

BTW: This puzzle is a good opportunity for you Buddy. Gives you the chance to author
one or more alternative histories a la Harry Turtledove about better timing, no ultimatum
at all, etc etc.

I get free autographed , First Edition hardbound copies of course and do you need
a ghostwriter? I’ll work cheap and you don’t have to say that that is more than what I am worth do you?

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:19 pm 168. Dave:

Almost forgot my manners Buddy.

Please remind your daughter that “the noblest fate a man can endure is to place his own body
between the war’s desolation and those whom he loves”.

That is why her Aggie friend was where he was.
So don’t worry about him. He is in good company now, Rick Rescorla and Roger Young
among them. And need I add, Bonham, Travis, Crockett and Bowie? No matter the loss here,
such endeavor is never, ever in vain.

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:30 pm 169. Doug:

Tangle of Clues About Suspect at Fort Hood

Investigators are trying to determine whether Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was a terrorist driven by extremism, a troubled loner, or both.
Times Topics: Nidal Malik Hasan

Nov 14, 2009 - 6:33 pm 170. buddy larsen:

Lordy mercy –a brief scan of leads shows not only entire tomes written to answer the question of the unconditional condition, but also promises as many opinions as there are writers! Ghostwriting poses a question –since disembodiedly writing these glyphs into the ether is a ghostly activity to begin with, then hiring a ghostwriter to ghostwrite might be dangerous –rends & bends everywhere in the warp & woof –could be sitting there, a happy primate cleverly typing away, and all of a sudden be a tiny dot of pissed off light hovering over the keyboard. I mean, screw that.

Dave, i’ll be sure to pass that on to Becky –it IS true. There may be or not be the Valhalla beyond the beyond but there is one in the hear and now in the living who remember, you just made evidence and i did too. i should not have written that thought about futility as it called for a finer distinction than i can express. A bad leader can make a politics futile but nothing can make that kid’s life nor the end of it futile –he wrote his story in the elementals. that boston mom –that is the face of fear –you could see what she fears in her face –that her son’s mission is getting thrown away. someone is surely talking to her and time can’t but help against the raw hurt –but whatever the future flow of history will be we have it in our hands now. and laying aside for the moment all GWB’s messups and misses, one thing for certain he was trying hard to speak for the nation and was fully aware from that position what it would have meant to be questioning all the meanings of the soldiers mission.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:04 pm 171. Wadeusaf:

For Habu and marymcl too! Alamomoaa July 08 Newsletter. Cookies on Page two, Fehrenbach used on Page 7.

I believe there has long been a difference on whether or not Islam could raise itself out of the fifth century and into the modern era. As I have mentioned before, the creation of Pakistan was in the minds of the Pakistani’s the opportunity to show the world that Islam and civil behavior could exist side by side. The experiment has been an abject failure.

Iraq can be considered the best model upon which a majority Islamic population could turn backward societies into a semblance of civilized human behavior. It would be ideal to rely on the ability of the Iraqi people to look past their religious differences and deal with one another on a strictly secular basis, but such an ideal situation is not very likely to present itself. The clerics in Anbar who supported Sharia and introduced Al Queda, are not a part of the solution. They were in fact a large part of the problems. It is a measure of Western success that the sheiks in Al Anbar not only turned against Al Queda, but joined up with the US and Coalition forces to make that change permanent. The difference between the Taliban leadership and the the tribal elders has already been discussed here and the elders of many tribes have been killed as a result of efforts to kindle the same sort of rebellion among tribes in the NWFP of Pakistan. Yet even there the citizens tire of not only the Taliban uneven administration of Sharia Law but it’s inconsistency and rather selfish implementation of versions of law and doctrine.

Still the inconsistency of the West, and the inability of the NATO to act as a cohesive unit contributing toward a shared objective allows the Taliban (and Al Queda) to convince local fighters that we are not the strong tribe and that we are not there to stay.

The people of Afghanistan do not want to live under taliban rule, but they would support the taliban now if they know they will be killed in a short time for withholding that support. I see no difference between the citizens of Afghanistan and the denizens of the NW of Pakistan.

No one is there in either pakistan or in Afghanistan to close down the Madrasa’s. In very few of the remote areas of Pakistan and most of Afghanistan is there a system of education ready to replace the Madrasa’s. No where in the Whole of Afghanistan is there a strong enough presence of Afghan Police or military to protect local inhabitants from Taliban abuse.

It is a tough situation. but if after nine years we turn tuck tail and run we are surely inviting further attacks on our sovereignty. If we determine to press on with more efficent variations of the current tactics and strategy we must do so with the knowledge that we are going to be ther for some extended time, and will be dealing with not only the Afghanistan problem but with the Pakistan problem as well.

If we cannot accomplish victory (and by victory I refer to a determination on the part of the Islamic peoples of Afghanistan and Pakistan to make impossible efforts to subvert by violent means or attack us by means of terror) then we must turn to use of other methods, to get their attention.

I favor the long term, counter insurgency approach seen in Iraq, which is the embodiment of the Bush doctrine. Habu feels that is a waste of time and lives, and that bringing the enemy to their knees in a conventional fight, is the proper way to gain a real change of heart,
That much has been understood for a while, what is not known (cough) is whether or not president Obama has the will or the intention to do follow through on either much less any path.
The enemy knows this, and is taking full advantage in an attempt to get us to loose heart, and surrender. The longer the enemy can keep president Obama from embracing one strategy or another the fewer options will be available to us, and so the enemy is gamboling the less likely we will be to use nukes.

My question is whether on not the president is delaying a decision on purpose, or because he is that incapable of making a decision. The murders at Ft Hood did little to settle the debate. But in my mind they should have sealed a commitment to act.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:12 pm 172. Charles:

112. Darren:

Christianity does not teach violence toward others, though there is the curious passage in Luke 22:36 advising the disciples to ‘buy a sword’.
………..
in seminaries the saying is that text without context is a pretext.

Luke 22:32-40 (New International Version)

32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.

36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[a]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That is enough,” he replied.
Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives
39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.”
………….

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:23 pm 173. Charles:

149. sirius_sir:

Re:Matthew 10:34-39 NASB

Same rule as above. Text taken out of context is a pretext.

32″Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34″Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
” ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]

37″Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
////
You can see the results of families in the Arab world in which there is no sword between their family members. Most typical of this are places like saudi arabia and yemen where the most frequent diseases are caused by inbreeding.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:35 pm 174. Storm-Rider:

Dave 166
Defense of life and liberty is the just strategic objective of a nation which opposes the aggressor nation, thereby preventing the aggressor from achieving an unjust strategic advantage.

The Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki involved large scale indiscriminate killing but so did the strategic conventional bombing of Japan which, if I recall correctly, killed more people than the two Atomic bombs. I believe this was just because the totalitarian Japanese government excelled at mass murder of civilians; they were experts at indiscriminate mass murder of innocents, and were developing plans for much more. The Atomic bombings saved millions of lives by bringing the war to a close, thereby preventing massive conventional bloodshed. They had to be defeated one way or another, and the way it ended was for the best – for both sides.

“Destruction (MAD) did absolutely nothing to keep the peace. In fact is came close to destroying same. What did keep the peace was the Eisenhower doctrine of “massive retaliation at a time and place of our choosing”.

This seems like an oxymoron because “massive retaliation at a time and place of our choosing” is an example of one the two arms of MAD. Cold War MAD did not prevent Korea and Vietnam; so you are right on those counts, but it did prevent something much worse.

I believe we agree on the moral basis of just war (defense of life and liberty); that is the most important thing. Our disagreements seem pretty small in comparison.

Nov 14, 2009 - 8:39 pm 175. solovyov:

Buddy Larsen, that is an ingenious suggestion! Organize the jihadists into a union; they’ll soon price themselves out of the market.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:16 pm 176. Dave:

Stormrider #174: Yep, they are small indeed in comparison. What I object to is
(1) believing that a large “body count”
insures success. and

(2) what I consider an out-of-context perversion of Thomism and the concept of “just war”. I have not seen any of that on the pages of BC and I hope we never do.

I have no doubt that your fire will be as directed on my behalf as on your own. I’ll do my best to reciprocate.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:24 pm 177. buddy larsen:

S/175; …and then kill that market. Twenty years ago, GM had exactly ten times the workers (and UAW members) as it has today. They talk of ’supporting America’ and the traditions of the American working person, but meanwhile they are guaranteeing that the jobs passed to them by their fathers and grandfathers will not exist for their sons and grandsons.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:29 pm 178. Dave:

Buddy, you can tell Becky that the s.o.b.s
have spent 40 years trying to convince me that my three VN tours, the nastiness observed,
the injuries suffered, the less-than-desirable
1975 outcome, The American friends dead, the Vietnamese friends gone Quien Sabe, and so forth and so on was all for naught.

And then you tell her that it is their efforts
that have proven to be an excercise in futility, not mine nor that of my comrades.

Back in 1975, I got heartache, they got to gloat. Today, they are perpetually discontent with the overall course of human events. I am no Pollyanna, but I have much more satisfaction with this current time
and these current events than do they. And as to the future, I can see ways and means for the good guys to prevail. My opposition
basically knows that it is doomed, one way of the other.

We shall prevail. And if you know the address of that Boston Mom, see if you can pass the message on to her. I am sure she would appreciate it.

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:50 pm 179. Storm-Rider:

Dave 176
1. I never said that a large body count is always necessary for success in war; but that in the case of World War II Japan it was necessary for success. I believe it is important (morally) to minimize casualties in war (especially on the side of those defending life and liberty), but attaining victory over the aggressor nation (or ideology) is an absolute requirement from a self-evident practical point of view, and also in terms of morality. The defeat of human liberty is not an option; it is immoral to allow it.

2. Thomas Aquinas apparently believed that the “sovereign,” i.e.: King or Oligarchy must have its interests and liberty protected by war; not the life and liberty of “We the People.” Just war is the defense of national and individual life and liberty. Our Declaration of Independence is an eternal Declaration of Just War – “against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

Nov 14, 2009 - 10:11 pm

Sorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.