Comments on: Dramamine alert! Dept. of Bhutto apotheosis http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:05:27 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Donna http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-557 Donna Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:38:23 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-557 greenconsciousness: Do you mean filmmaker Theo van Gogh? Oh, yes, I really remember the enlightened Hollywood crowd reacting in outrage when van Gogh was killed,...,oh, no, wait a minute, in fact, the people who seemed most upset about his murder were those awful sexist right-wingers. Not a peek about van Gogh was uttered at the Academy Awards that year - they were too busy fawning over Michael Moore and patting themselves on the back for their oh-so-brave anti-Bush stance. I agree with Jon Motherwell: <i>Her death is a setback for Western hopes in Pakistan and the region in general. We do not need to idealize her in order to see this; indeed, such idealization will make it harder to identify a successor who might pick up her mantle. </i> Exactly. I was dismayed when I heard of her death, but she was hardly some noble exemplar of democracy. And it's hardly "misogyny" to point that out. Sheesh, I guess coolly appraising political figures is "sexist." If our hearts were in the right place, we'd gush and sob over Diana and Bhutto like teenyboppers at a Justin Timberlake concert. Remember, folks, it's all about feeeeelings, damn the facts! greenconsciousness:

Do you mean filmmaker Theo van Gogh? Oh, yes, I really remember the enlightened Hollywood crowd reacting in outrage when van Gogh was killed,…,oh, no, wait a minute, in fact, the people who seemed most upset about his murder were those awful sexist right-wingers. Not a peek about van Gogh was uttered at the Academy Awards that year – they were too busy fawning over Michael Moore and patting themselves on the back for their oh-so-brave anti-Bush stance.

I agree with Jon Motherwell:

Her death is a setback for Western hopes in Pakistan and the region in general. We do not need to idealize her in order to see this; indeed, such idealization will make it harder to identify a successor who might pick up her mantle.

Exactly. I was dismayed when I heard of her death, but she was hardly some noble exemplar of democracy. And it’s hardly “misogyny” to point that out.

Sheesh, I guess coolly appraising political figures is “sexist.” If our hearts were in the right place, we’d gush and sob over Diana and Bhutto like teenyboppers at a Justin Timberlake concert.

Remember, folks, it’s all about feeeeelings, damn the facts!

]]> By: Donna http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-556 Donna Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:01:29 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-556 <i>What accounts for its singular awfulness? How has he managed to crowd so much cloying insincerity and grating exhortation into fewer than 800 words?</i> Hey, he's a fashionable French intellectual. What else do you expect? This is far from being Levy's worst. I remember a ridiculously pretentious piece he wrote about some soccer player a few years back. For a minute I thought I was reading the Onion instead of the WSJ. What accounts for its singular awfulness? How has he managed to crowd so much cloying insincerity and grating exhortation into fewer than 800 words?

Hey, he’s a fashionable French intellectual. What else do you expect?

This is far from being Levy’s worst. I remember a ridiculously pretentious piece he wrote about some soccer player a few years back. For a minute I thought I was reading the Onion instead of the WSJ.

]]> By: greenconsciousness http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-555 greenconsciousness Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:19:40 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-555 Are you the same people who derided King, Gandhi, Kennedy, Van Gogh, and Rushdie? How fool hardy they were to demand and support civil rights, human rights for the oppressed in spite of their corrupt private lives. How dare they and Bhutto not be perfect morally and ineffective politically as are blog writers. How dare Diana concern herself with the victims of land mines and AIDS instead of feeding your belief that beautiful women are stupid, useless or corrupt morally? How dare the poor and oppressed mourn the death of their hope for relief. Are you the same people who told women to lay back and enjoy it? Shut up and listen to our betters? Just as no one can ever be correct enough for the left, no one can be pure enough for the sexist right. I would rather "study Mr. Levy’s histrionic communique" all day long rather than read this pretentious misogyny. Are you the same people who derided King, Gandhi, Kennedy, Van Gogh, and Rushdie? How fool hardy they were to demand and support civil rights, human rights for the oppressed in spite of their corrupt private lives.

How dare they and Bhutto not be perfect morally and ineffective politically as are blog writers.

How dare Diana concern herself with the victims of land mines and AIDS instead of feeding your belief that beautiful women are stupid, useless or corrupt morally?

How dare the poor and oppressed mourn the death of their hope for relief.

Are you the same people who told women to lay back and enjoy it? Shut up and listen to our betters? Just as no one can ever be correct enough for the left, no one can be pure enough for the sexist right.

I would rather “study Mr. Levy’s histrionic communique” all day long rather than read this pretentious misogyny.

]]> By: eliXelx http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-554 eliXelx Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:07:37 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-554 There was not a single Jew next to her either the first or second time, which can lead to only one logical conclusion... There was not a single Jew next to her either the first or second time, which can lead to only one logical conclusion…

]]> By: Helian http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-553 Helian Tue, 01 Jan 2008 03:16:12 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-553 At the risk of wearying the sage Mr. Kimball with my “cant,” I must insist that Ms. Bhutto is not only a hero, but a glorious hero. This fact is obvious to anyone who can actually grasp the meaning of the terms “hero” and “glory,” difficult as that may be lo now these 80 years and more since it became fashionable to “debunk” all heroes. She is a hero in spite of all those wise experts in modern “ethics” who have concluded they know with 100% certainty that she is guilty of all sorts of crimes and corruption because, after all, they read it in a couple of blogs. She is a hero in spite of the fact that the Internet’s legions of self-appointed geniuses have concluded she acted out of “self-interest.” (You know, just like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Davy Crockett, Dan’l Boone, and Johnny Appleseed.) She is a hero because she knowingly put her life at grave risk to stand up for democracy, women’s rights, the secular state and liberty against the religious fanatics, obscurantists, misogynists, and would-be dictators who, like the poor, ye have always with you. These facts are obvious. To experience such facts as “heroic” and “glorious,” of course, one cannot be purely and coldly logical. They are, after all, subjective terms. One must be capable of a certain susceptibility to human emotions to understand what is meant by such terms. Gratitude for example. I am grateful to Ms. Bhutto, because she has given her life to do something of value to me. There is nothing more complicated than that behind my perception of her as a hero. Of course, I realize how absurd, and, indeed, abject it must seem to many of the other commenters here that I am capable of perceiving heroism in an individual who is not absolutely righteous and morally pure according to the exacting standards of this highly ethical age, but there you have it. Some of us are born with certain intellectual and moral deficits, and we live with them as best we can. At the risk of wearying the sage Mr. Kimball with my “cant,” I must insist that Ms. Bhutto is not only a hero, but a glorious hero. This fact is obvious to anyone who can actually grasp the meaning of the terms “hero” and “glory,” difficult as that may be lo now these 80 years and more since it became fashionable to “debunk” all heroes. She is a hero in spite of all those wise experts in modern “ethics” who have concluded they know with 100% certainty that she is guilty of all sorts of crimes and corruption because, after all, they read it in a couple of blogs. She is a hero in spite of the fact that the Internet’s legions of self-appointed geniuses have concluded she acted out of “self-interest.” (You know, just like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Davy Crockett, Dan’l Boone, and Johnny Appleseed.) She is a hero because she knowingly put her life at grave risk to stand up for democracy, women’s rights, the secular state and liberty against the religious fanatics, obscurantists, misogynists, and would-be dictators who, like the poor, ye have always with you. These facts are obvious. To experience such facts as “heroic” and “glorious,” of course, one cannot be purely and coldly logical. They are, after all, subjective terms. One must be capable of a certain susceptibility to human emotions to understand what is meant by such terms. Gratitude for example. I am grateful to Ms. Bhutto, because she has given her life to do something of value to me. There is nothing more complicated than that behind my perception of her as a hero. Of course, I realize how absurd, and, indeed, abject it must seem to many of the other commenters here that I am capable of perceiving heroism in an individual who is not absolutely righteous and morally pure according to the exacting standards of this highly ethical age, but there you have it. Some of us are born with certain intellectual and moral deficits, and we live with them as best we can.

]]> By: Jane http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-552 Jane Mon, 31 Dec 2007 22:52:08 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-552 How do we know that she is really dead? How do we know that she is really dead?

]]> By: Rachel http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-551 Rachel Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:57:17 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-551 In both cases, we see the transference of what the media wanted, what could have been, versus what actually happened. And THAT is why I dread a Clinton presidency. And I'm a liberal. But back to Bhutto. Why is it everytime a person gets killed or something bad happens it's W's fault? He may have encouraged Bhutto to come back but *she* stayed.. She also took the risk of coming back to a country that, based on my readings, she took advantage of and would have taken again IF she was elected. She could have said no, and she could have taken Musshie's advice and stayed down. It's working for al-Sistani. What I hate is that everything other people do or happens to them, it's somehow Bush's fault, regardless of their own actions. Now watch when Hillary! gets into office it will be everyone's fault but hers! (I'm mostly ranting here, but I *am* concerned about such a thing happening, esp. in Mideast foreign policy) In both cases, we see the transference of what the media wanted, what could have been, versus what actually happened.

And THAT is why I dread a Clinton presidency. And I’m a liberal.

But back to Bhutto. Why is it everytime a person gets killed or something bad happens it’s W’s fault? He may have encouraged Bhutto to come back but *she* stayed.. She also took the risk of coming back to a country that, based on my readings, she took advantage of and would have taken again IF she was elected. She could have said no, and she could have taken Musshie’s advice and stayed down. It’s working for al-Sistani.

What I hate is that everything other people do or happens to them, it’s somehow Bush’s fault, regardless of their own actions. Now watch when Hillary! gets into office it will be everyone’s fault but hers! (I’m mostly ranting here, but I *am* concerned about such a thing happening, esp. in Mideast foreign policy)

]]> By: Sarah Rolph http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-550 Sarah Rolph Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:55:02 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-550 I don't see how it is a "gratuitous slap" to observe that Bhutto's personal courage was badly misplaced and served no useful end, but instead handed a victory to the enemy. Nor is it at all gratuitous to observe that Hillary Clinton is callously using Bhutto's death to advance her own political agenda. Both points seem important and relevant, to me. I don’t see how it is a “gratuitous slap” to observe that Bhutto’s personal courage was badly misplaced and served no useful end, but instead handed a victory to the enemy. Nor is it at all gratuitous to observe that Hillary Clinton is callously using Bhutto’s death to advance her own political agenda. Both points seem important and relevant, to me.

]]> By: David Thomson http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-549 David Thomson Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:42:55 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-549 "...a gratuitous slap at a murdered woman who, despite it all, showed more personal courage than everyone here tied together..." Amen. Your point is well taken. Benazir Bhutto was indeed a brave woman. Nonetheless, she still behaved like a naive fool. Her behavior has only made the situation worse in Pakistan. “…a gratuitous slap at a murdered woman who, despite it all, showed more personal courage than everyone here tied together…”

Amen. Your point is well taken. Benazir Bhutto was indeed a brave woman. Nonetheless, she still behaved like a naive fool. Her behavior has only made the situation worse in Pakistan.

]]> By: Jammer http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine_alert_dept_of_bhutto/comment-page-1/#comment-548 Jammer Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:10:28 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/12/30/dramamine-alert-dept-of-bhutto-apotheosis/#comment-548 Oh how rich this all is. Almost every post here is either (1) a gratuitous slap at a murdered woman who, despite it all, showed more personal courage than everyone here tied together, or (2) a gratuitous slap at Hillary Clinton. How brave! Oh how rich this all is. Almost every post here is either (1) a gratuitous slap at a murdered woman who, despite it all, showed more personal courage than everyone here tied together, or (2) a gratuitous slap at Hillary Clinton. How brave!

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