43 Comments

1. John Keohane:

What would today’s press have said about the assault by the US Rangers on the cliffs of Pont du Hoch to silence the German gun batteries. Many Rangers were killed only to learn the emplacements were phony and the real guns were moved in land. Would the headlines have been: “FDR lied, many died”?

Jun 6, 2008 - 12:12 pm 2. Rand Simberg:

Well, it’s sixty-four years, by my math.

But that aside, as we all know, they bungled the occupation, too.

Jun 6, 2008 - 12:20 pm 3. joe:

Math. 2008 – 1944 = 64.

Jun 6, 2008 - 12:29 pm 4. D-Day: Glad we didn’t have today’s media then « DPGI - the return:

[...] is one possible headline and story: Breaking news! US Army pinned down in bungled assault. Huge civilian casualties. Experts fear grave … Three hundred French civilians were killed and thousands more wounded today in the first hours of [...]

Jun 6, 2008 - 12:41 pm 5. Patrick:

I agree: It’s funny, but only when you don’t reflect on how close to being true it is. The answer to your question is no, we couldn’t fight at Normandy again. We couldn’t prosecute WW2 again. Now that all wars are framed in negative terms of civilian casualties, military casualties (including enemy ones), and rare but deplorable atrocities and war crimes; with bringing the boys back home (even on day three of the war) being the only worthwhile goal, we’ll never again be able or allowed to fight a WW2.

The precedent of the first Gulf War and the flip in the perception of Iraq show that public and media tolerance for a fight is about six months. They expect the war to be won in four days with no collateral damage and few or no American casualties – but they’ll be somewhat patient (by their standards, though with an ever growing discontented murmur) for half a year after that. Then the kid gloves come off and we’re mired in our next 15-year Vietnam quagmire.

It took six weeks before the Allies broke out from the coast at Normandy. If the mood on June 7th would indeed have been as pessimistic as your friend suggests if today’s standards had applied then, imagine how much uglier it would have been by July 4th as the Allies were still hemmed in along the coast by the German forces!

Minor nitpick: 64th anniversary.

Jun 6, 2008 - 12:50 pm 6. Cover Me, Porkins:

Imagine this headline:

SPECIAL REPORT: RISKY “PARATROOPERS” CONCEPT LEAVES MEN OF 101ST AIRBORNE “SCATTERED ACROSS THE COUNTRYSIDE”

Seriously. The upside is that OIF has endured public impatience, and that media dominance seems to be shifting from left to center, i.e., ahistorical and politicized to reasonable. Slowly, yes, but steadily.

Jun 6, 2008 - 1:39 pm 7. Mace:

Unfortunately, there’s a whole bunch of people in this country that believe that there’s nothing worth fighting and dying for, including their own freedom.

Jun 6, 2008 - 1:43 pm 8. D-Day As Reported By Today’s Media « The Reluctant Optimist:

[...] Posted by TRO on June 6, 2008 Oh the horror. [...]

Jun 6, 2008 - 1:44 pm 9. RKV:

“We couldn’t prosecute WW2 again. Now that all wars are framed in negative terms of civilian casualties, military casualties (including enemy ones), and rare but deplorable atrocities and war crimes; with bringing the boys back home (even on day three of the war) being the only worthwhile goal, we’ll never again be able or allowed to fight a WW2.”

Perhaps we may have to. Our enemies will certainly have no such barriers to overcome. And yes, it could happen again. With leadership as is currently in place in Iran, casualties don’t matter for instance. They demonstrated that with human wave attacks to clear minefields in the Iran-Iraq War, where children were marched into mines to enable troops to follow behind. Not everyone, nor every country is rational remember?

Jun 6, 2008 - 1:45 pm 10. Pantera:

Actually, we did screw D-Day up pretty bad, mostly on Omaha. The Shermans that were supposed to go to shore to support the infantry sank in the choppy waters and the initial bombardment was too far inland to do any good. Thankfully, the Germans screwed up more than we did. The 21st Panzer division got pinned down by Allied planes and couldn’t help in the fight. Kinda reminds me of the old sayin “War is a series of disasters that results in victory”.

And, WWII probably had more civilians killed by the allies than in Vietnam. Burning entire cities to the ground is not good strategy for avoiding civilian losses.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:07 pm 11. jblog:

Recall that roughly 800 Allied soldiers and sailors died in a REHEARSAL for D Day on April 28, 1944, when German E Boats attacked Allied transports.

Such an event today would lead to an immediate call from Congress for a full investigation and for the planned invasion to be canceled.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:14 pm 12. Sacred Trust:

“Spineless french crab”…classic!

You forgot to mention “100 years of war!” with our troops in Europe forever! Here it is, sixty four years later and we are still there, yet when we try to leave the beggar nations of Europe demand that we stay.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:17 pm 13. Anniversary | Cold Fury:

[...] Okay, this one’s good too: June 6, 1944. -NORMANDY- Three hundred French civilians were killed and thousands more [...]

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:24 pm 14. ZEITGEIST:

[...] D-DAY REPORTED BY TODAY’S MEDIA: US Army pinned down in bungled assault. Huge civilian casualties. Experts fear grave damage to the e… [...]

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:27 pm 15. newguy40:

WW2 is replete with American mess ups. All part of the “Fog of War” and “War is the providence of Friction”. All tragic…

1.) Hundreds of allied soldiers inadvertently killed during the carpet bombing prep at the early stages of the break out.

2.) Unpreparedness of the US Army at Kasserine.

3.) Surprised US troops at the start of the Ardnennes.

John – This big guns had only moved back a few miles from the emplacements. Those Rangers still took them out.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:40 pm 16. Brian G:

In today’s media, D-Day would have been reported as a complete failure and the media would have reported how this German victory was so devestating it was time to withdrawal from Iraq.

Barack Obama would met with Hitler and shunned Churchill.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:46 pm 17. Brian G:

Iraq? I of course meant Europe.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:46 pm 18. Wellspring:

Roger, you’ll be pleased to learn that the spineless french crab quickly recovered and is now the dominant form of life in its habitat.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:52 pm 19. Billy Hollis:

“What would today’s press have said about the assault by the US Rangers on the cliffs of Pont du Hoch to silence the German gun batteries. Many Rangers were killed only to learn the emplacements were phony and the real guns were moved in land. Would the headlines have been: “FDR lied, many died”?”

No blood for duds.

Jun 6, 2008 - 2:52 pm 20. R. Ford Mashburn:

The first wave at Omaha was chopped to bits. Six companies totalling 1000 men were in the first wave of the assault. In one sector of the beach, 3 men survived to reach the seawall; none was higher in rank than corporal.

Able company, 116th Infantry, 29th Inf Division never even got off the beach. The ropes that the men trained with were never tested in wet conditions, since the rehearsals were all in calm waters. After two days in the transports, the men and their equipment were soaked through. The ropes and grapnel hooks never even reached the tops of the cliffs to help the men climb up for the assault.

One million men in the invasion force, and the whole invasion depended on a green outfit that was making its first ever assault on a fortified position, and that outfit was only 2400 combat troops. 800 casualties from that regiment alone. It was a disaster, and the weeks that followed were even worse.

Field Marshal Montgomery launched three major assaults to take Caen in the weeks that followed and every single one failed. The Army Air Corps bombed Caen to rubble and still the Germans wouldn’t budge.

Its true we couldn’t fight another WW2 today. The lack of realistic planning, overcompensation of airpower for tactical success, and the lack of decent equipment (Shermans were called Purple Heart boxes with good reason) crippled our efforts against the Wehrmact. If we had to fight WW 2 today, heads would roll.

Jun 6, 2008 - 3:03 pm 21. Jake Was Here:

Didn’t Harry Turtledove write a story about this? I think it was called “News from the Front”…

Jun 6, 2008 - 3:17 pm 22. David Gillies:

Fatal Allied casualties between June 6th and August 25th, when the Normandy campaign is historically assessed as having ended, were 46,000. Total Allied casualties (killed, wounded and missing) were over 200,000. The Germans suffered around 400,000 casualties including 50,000 dead. That’s 80 days. A hundred thousand dead in total. The 101st Airborne suffered 40% casualties on D Day alone. And remember at the end of the fighting in Normandy there were still ten more months of war in the Western theatre to come, and a full year in the Pacific. The bloodiest battles that the US fought during WWII (e.g. the Battle of the Hürtgen Forest, the Ardennes campaign, Okinawa) were all in the future at this point.

Jun 6, 2008 - 3:18 pm 23. Orion:

Let us also pause to remember the noble sacrifice of the spineless French crab, without who’s sacrifice Europe could never have been freed from tyranny…

…what’s that you say? The species recovered and is alive and well in French newspaper offices?

Jun 6, 2008 - 3:33 pm 24. JohnMc:

I have a different observation about D-Day. Would the view be different if the payscales were adjusted accordingly? Would the MSM be gung ho if combat soldiers were paid Congressmen’s pay? [Think about it, we ask these men and women to risk their lives. They deserve the better pay. Let the Congress Critters live on an E5's pay.:)] Soldiers as pop stars or NBA players.

Somehow I could live with that.

Jun 6, 2008 - 4:09 pm 25. william:

Screw the media ….I admire anyone that walks in the footsteps of those brave soldiers on that day……

Jun 6, 2008 - 4:18 pm 26. Sceptic:

Funny the lack of criticism of this post. Doesn’t anyone remember the largely inept media relinquishing their responsibilities to do real reporting for a shot to get ‘embedded’ with the troops? How can anyone truly compare this to WWII (a true war for freedom)?

The largely inept and anemic reporting of the saber rattling and clear desire to invade Iraq (regardless of the facts) is one reason why public opinion stayed with the President. The result…billions (if not trillions) of spent treasure and a priceless expenditure of American credibility. Oh yeah, and don’t forget how we improved the strategic position of Iran!

Jun 6, 2008 - 4:24 pm 27. » D-day Reported By Today’s Media:

[...] US Army pinned down in bungled assault. Huge civilian casualties. Experts fear grave damage to the e… [...]

Jun 6, 2008 - 4:30 pm 28. Jack is Back:

My Dad landed on Omaha. Nothing more needs to be said.

Jun 6, 2008 - 5:05 pm 29. ob:

JOHN BOLTON FOR PRESIDENT

Jun 6, 2008 - 6:19 pm 30. GW Crawford:

Re: Jack is Back’s father landing on Omaha

Big deal! Obama’s uncle personally liberated Stalingrad and then lived under a picnic table for 3 months!

At one point the Allied planners were estimated 75-90% casualties in the first wave – yet they had to turn people down who wanted to volunteer to be in that wave

But remember, Europe has stated that you cannot win a war with airpower – which they proved by not using any and actually not gaining any ground against the Serbs in the FYR (if that seems to contradict itself, congrats, you may actually have a functioning brain and enough sense to fight back when some asshole attacks you)

Jun 6, 2008 - 8:07 pm 31. vincenzo:

interesting, “improved position of Iran”…

by any reasonable measure, one would say that iran’s “sabre-rattling” of recent vintage has all the ring of desperation and fear. after all, guess who’s come to dinner? it’s no longer some propped-up hated-by-his-people maniac or a 6 mile-wide strip of hearty folks a few countries over, but it’s the big kahuna that does war like no one ever could, the United States. breathing down the iranian regime’s necks from a stone’s throw across the border. on both sides!!! (that’s iraq and afghanistan, incidentally). anyone who, even at this late date and in light of the predictably unstable behavior of the feeling-its-oats iranian regime, hasn’t considered that one of the principle outcomes sought in the wars of this decade has been to effectuate a containment strategy of iran is truly lacking in basic critical thinking skills.

sorry, that’s just the way it is. all the rest of the benefits are components of this larger goal, and gravy. once effectively geographically contained, iran will be subject to wearing down by diplomacy and military carrots and sticks over the next few decades until it either blows up or peacefully joins the community of nations, as in the case of the soviet bloc. at least, i’d like to think that someone in the vast intelligence complex of this country’s strategic defense braintrust is thinking along these lines.

if not, then what, i wonder?

Jun 6, 2008 - 8:54 pm 32. Essucht:

Funny the lack of criticism of this post. Doesn’t anyone remember the largely inept media relinquishing their responsibilities to do real reporting for a shot to get ‘embedded’ with the troops? How can anyone truly compare this to WWII (a true war for freedom)?

I do certainly remember the lack of good reporting in the lead up to the war. It had nothing to do with embedded status though, and everything to do with Saddam’s money and influence. In a saner era, the fact that CNN was working with Saddam would not have been a mere flash in the pan story. Of course, I don’t think anyone was shocked about Al Jazeera’s relationship to Saddam.

Oh, and as for the status of the Iraq war compared to WWII, what exactly happened to Poland at the end of the war? Do you happen to recall per chance? Thank God we did not allow the same thing to happen to our Iraqi allies…

Jun 6, 2008 - 11:01 pm 33. ChknLtL:

Septic complains about “The…. clear desire to invade Iraq (regardless of the facts)….” etc, etc, etc.

Sigh. Same old whine. Amazing that s/he’s so sure of “the facts.” Surely s/he wouldn’t have been concerned by the same intel that convinced most of the leaders of the free world that Saddam’s WMD threat and ties to terrorism were probable enough to be taken seriously.

Myself, I’m grateful that Bush had a pair big enough to take the heat rather than risk a US city to the the consequences of a more timid decision. It’s the same kind of courage that kept WWII off US soil and that made D-Day, VE Day, and VJ Day possible.

And maybe more to the point, it’s the same kind of courage that won the peace in Europe and Japan after the fighting was over. Now that the war in Iraq is winding down, it will really be a “priceless expenditure of American credibility” if our next president doesn’t have the moral stature to stay long enough to win the peace there too.

Jun 7, 2008 - 1:03 am 34. nihil:

We can never correct the blunders of the past. That’s what “the past” means — that which we cannot change. Counterfactual history is a waste of ink. All history can do is offer some rough guides. The leader of a gang of racist bullies is jailed in democratic countries. Tribal societies may still make him chief. Today’s Germans would not vote for Hitler. Few Southerners would vote for Jefferson Davis or volunteer to fight to pull our states out of the union. Our state is not the focus of patriotism: our country is. Being Catholic, Baptist, Holiness, Mormon, Adventist, Greek or Russian Orthodox, Reform, Orthodox, or Conservative Jewish, Sunni or Shi’a Muslim, Hinayana, Mahayana, Zen Buddhist, Universalist, Agnostic, Atheist, or anything else doesn’t keep us from being loyal Americans. All these sects have been persecuted, beaten, killed, sometimes recently, sometimes in America. It doesn’t happen in Germany or England, but a few hundred years ago Protestants and Catholics, beat, raped, lynched, and murdered each other. They’ve learned from history. The democratic world has learned to stop dictators before they threaten their neighbors. We are trying to learn how to stop religious war, genocide, chaos, and aggression. We aren’t very good at it yet. Peacekeepers, observed elections, and economic sanctions are flimsy interventions, but given time they usually work. Military intervention is a last resort. Even when it happens, as in Afghanistan, or Iraq, there are local allies for the invaders. The vast armies sweeping across countries are obsolete. Most countries have dropped conscription, it is too expensive, and too wasteful of “human resources.” We have perfected ways of killing an enemy with Predators, Robots, and ultimately atomic and thermonuclear weapons. Attempts to limit proliferation have not worked. Most countries have reason to fear nuclear neighbors. Rational leaders will limit their bullying of nuclear neighbors, if the people let them. Good reason not to ignite popular anger. So far so good. A country so crazy as to threaten the destruction of the U.S. would suffer asymetric destruction, Kilotons or none for us. Megatons for them, with gigatons for their allies if they want to play against the big boys. We now have some working anti-ballistic and anti-cruise weapons (Aegis and Patriot). These will shift the odds even more. We must learn how to bargain from strength, not bluff from weakness as Iraq did. Our would-be enemies must learn that we always hold something back, something more horrible anything in their nightmares. Maybe Dick Cheney with a shotgun or Hillary stoked on boilermakers. Never to fear to bargain, but never to bargain from fear. To trust, but verify. To walk softly, and carry a big stick. To fear nothing but fear itself.
To make the world safe for democracy. Let us have peace.

Jun 7, 2008 - 2:35 am 35. Alex Bensky:

You have failed to mention the key fact, which is FDR’s disproportionate reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor, carried out by Japanese whose goal was to preserve their unique culture against the depredations of the western world.

This fiasco of an operation in France, which is killing women and children and destroying schools and hospitals, would never have happened if FDR had simply offered to meet with Hitler and Tojo without preconditions. After all, what problem can’t be settled fairly if we just sit down and talk sincerely to the other side?

Jun 7, 2008 - 5:35 am 36. Brad:

Yeah, imagine this story:

“Pearl Harbor Bombed! FDR kills 4000 of our soldiers in mistaken attack on Bolivia. ‘I thought they were Bolivians.’ US mired in trillion dollar Bolivian civil war and occupation, with no end in sight. 6 years later, Tojo no closer to being brought to justice.”

Of course, with FDR, if he had not been impeached, he would have resigned in disgrace. American was a different country back then – we believed in accountability.

Discuss.

Jun 7, 2008 - 6:04 am 37. Sceptic:

ChknLtL says: …it will really be a “priceless expenditure of American credibility” if our next president doesn’t have the moral stature to stay long enough to win the peace there too.

To me this is the same old Vietnam-based argument (”if we only would have stayed there long enough (and had many more of our soldiers killed without advancing any true national security objectives!) all would have turned out fine”).

We should all expect more out of our President to a) make sure that wars fought based on true national security interests (like WWII and Iraq I) and that b) they are fought with a minimum of competence.

I fear that if we base them only on the ability to stay long enough to win, American power and standing in the world will only continue to decline.

Jun 7, 2008 - 7:06 am 38. Sceptic:

Essucht says: “[The poor reporting had] …everything to do with Saddam’s money and influence”

This is an interesting theory. Can you point to any evidence that Saddam was paying off the Nytimes, Fox, CNN, etc. to give the Bush admin. a pass to invade his country?

Jun 7, 2008 - 7:09 am 39. Sceptic:

Vincenzo says: “by any reasonable measure, one would say that iran’s “sabre-rattling” of recent vintage has all the ring of desperation and fear.”

I would have to agree that Iran’s regime is indeed hollow. That’s why it pains me all the more that we invaded Iraq based on false pretenses. Let’s look at what it has done for Iran:

1) Overstretched our military. Iran knows that we cannot invade them while we are tied down in Iraq (and don’t forget Afghanistan!). At best, all we could muster is a few token airstrikes, which would only have the effect of strengthening their hold on the populace. Our empty “sabre-rattling” only emboldens them.
2) We’ve turned Iraq from an enemy to a future ally of Iran. If only Bush would have known the difference between Shiite and Sunni…:)
3) The draining of our financial reserves has steadily weakened the dollar, increasing the relative cost of oil and given Iran a huge financial boost, which they can leverage to finance their surrogates (Hamas, Hezbollah) to further destabilize other parts of the middle east.

If only we had had a true conservative in the white house during this time. They would have smashed Afghanistan (and captured Osama!) then been able to put massive pressure on Iran to stop their nuclear programs, not to mention the Pakis…

Jun 7, 2008 - 7:18 am 40. steve miller:

I don’t understand the continual carping about the Iraq War II “mistakes” or “failure” as if this invalidates the entire war.

No plan of battle survives the first contact. You adapt, you change. The key goals are the removal of the threat of Saddam Hussein.

What is so hard about that?

And good point about how the MSM (but missing the Euros) tried their best not to look like they were paid informants of Hussein. Anyone remember the crocodile tears over the sanctions?

Jun 8, 2008 - 7:52 am 41. WebElf Report News Blogroll « The WebElf Report:

[...] BREAKING NEWS! “US Army pinned down in bungled assault. Huge civilian casualties. Experts fear grave damage [...]

Jun 8, 2008 - 2:02 pm 42. raven:

Our tolerance is to win in four days with no casualties on our side.
Makes a really outstanding argument to nuke an adversary, does it not?

Jun 9, 2008 - 8:11 am 43. Don:

Having just returned from Normandy, I cannot say enough about the bravery of those men who liberated France and defeated the essence of evil. To any living WW2 vet, THANK YOU!

Jun 9, 2008 - 12:48 pm

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