Roger’s Rules

December 2nd, 2008 8:07 am

How Democracies Perish, British Edition

The horrific story of the latest adventure conducted by the religion of peace in Bombay riveted the public’s attention to such an extent that one of the most egregious violations of political freedom in a Western democracy has, at least on this side of the Atlantic, gone almost without comment. I mean the sudden arrest in London last week of of Damian Green, a conservative MP and Shadow Minister for Immigration, who was seized by anti-terrorist personnel from the Metropolitan police, held for questioning for 9 hours, and whose private papers and computer files in his home and office in the House of Commons were confiscated. The Honorable Member’s offense? Embarrassing Gordon Brown’s government. How did he do this? By revealing in debate on the floor of the House of Commons and in various lapses, failures, and dirty-little-secrets about the government’s immigration policy, e.g.,

* the fact that the home secretary knew that the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.

* the fact that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.

* A whips’ list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.

In other words, Mr. Green was doing exactly what a member of the Opposition should do: shedding light on the government’s failures in order to make it more accountable to the public.

The ever percipient Janet Daley, writing in the London Telegraph, got it exactly right: Mr. Green’s arrest, and the government’s subsequent denial of knowledge of or responsibility for the actions of the police, represents a “grotesque breach of political freedom and constitutional principle.”

Anyone who thinks that this incident is being somehow blown out of proportion by opposition politicians and an excitable media had better think again. A senior opposition spokesman has been arrested and detained, had his personal possessions and confidential correspondence examined, and his family home occupied, without being suspected of any criminal offence.

The object of the exercise seems to have been intimidation and the flaunting of power. Short of an outright, totalitarian suspension of democracy, this is about as serious as it gets. Freedom is under threat in ways that we would not have thought conceivable a generation ago. The threat seems to be coming in various forms from a government desperate to save its own credibility and to be so convinced of its moral righteousness that it can justify the most blatant abuses of what we had taken to be the fundamental principles of a free society.

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101 Comments

1. runbei:

Roger - An MIT Media Lab study found that people make 40 percent more proofreading errors onscreen than when editing from hardcopy. E.g., “birthrate” for “birth right” above. You write wonderfully. You deserve better copyediting. - A friend

Dec 2, 2008 - 9:45 am 2. Pajamas Media » How Democracies Perish, British Edition:

[...] the entire story here [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:48 am 3. TomJW:

At the rate Britain is going I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried him under Sharia Law. I feel that Britain is lost. How did a government learn to hate its own culture and history?

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:06 pm 4. jimbob:

great to see US bloggers picking up on this story and publicising it.

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:11 pm 5. Peter the Sub Guy:

I can already see this starting to happen on our side of the ‘pond,’ when political candidates try and use the DoJ to investigate opposition who are simply looking into the public background of said political candidate, or publicize events or personal relationships said political candidate would rather not have in the public light at that moment.

The world is becoming a much scarier place in the next few months.

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:12 pm 6. Thinking Person:

I thought this sort of witchhunt only happened in the U.S.? Poor, hapless Joe the Plumber comes to mind. It saddens me to think about what sort of a society we are passing down to the next generation. Anyone remember the days of traveling internationally knowing that as an American you would be safe and treated well? Remember the days when you could trust and repect your elected leaders and knew that they were going to represent you well in Washington? Now, knowing that in the U.S. we are on the verge of at least 2 major forms of legislation passing (one to take away freedom of speech thinly veiled as the “Fairness Doctrine” and the other to take away the American workers right to a private vote to be unionized or not)America is truly at a turning point in history. I’m always amazed at how we sit back on our politically correct hands and let others take away our rights, freedoms and privileges one by one. We have all been lulled into denial by being told that it’s for the greater good (whose is the question?). We’ve allowed the minority to rule instead of vice versa. Maybe Mr. Green’s arrest will bring to the forefront what has been hiding in shadow for so long. How much more can a free society take before it splinters? I have a feeling after Obama’s coronation in January, we’ll find out.

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:33 pm 7. rvastar:

“…it is the liberals who fear liberty and the intellectuals who want to do dirt on the intellect”

- George Orwell

Dec 2, 2008 - 12:54 pm 8. Seerak:

As Nick Clegg, leader of the Liberal Democrats, put it “This is something you might expect from a tin-pot dictatorship, not in a modern democracy.”

Socrates would beg to differ.

If you want to avoid going down the road that leads to this sort of thing, it helps to know how we got here in the first place. The Left’s substitution of “democracy” for freedom is a key first step to their overall goal of taking the shackles off government and placing them back on the wrists of individuals.

What makes a society free is a limited government, not an elected one.

Dec 2, 2008 - 1:49 pm 9. Instapundit » Blog Archive » ROGER KIMBALL: Political Freedom Dies in Great Britain….:

[...] ROGER KIMBALL: Political Freedom Dies in Great Britain. [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 1:58 pm 10. Jim M:

Read Orwell?? Read Atlas Shrugged. This behavior has nothing to do with utopian fantasies; it has to do with power lust.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:02 pm 11. Cantormania:

And Americans just voted for the smiling face of Big Brother.

Let’s hope that Obama has the character to refuse the power his supports would give him.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:02 pm 12. ed t:

Roger- a question. Are you sure that the leaks Green took were used in the House of Commons and not in newspapers like the Mail? Of course it’s terrible that Green was arrested, but I am not sure about this point of fact.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:06 pm 13. jd:

Unfortunately violence to this type of government action is the ONLY activity that is going to get results. Big Brother needs to be bullied around else your rights vanish.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:10 pm 14. David Ross:

What’s happening in Britain now is, in slow-motion, what happened in Britain in the 1640s. They are strong-arming Tories and, as the arbiters of morality (dissenting churches then, liberal-arts departments in university now) have “proven”, Tories are wicked reactionaries who don’t deserve rights.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:10 pm 15. Dotar Sojat:

In the Britain Formerly Known As Great, the descent continues.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:10 pm 16. sestamibi:

Here in Nevada a similar scenario is playing out with the impending indictment by Dem AG Catherine Cortez Masto of GOP Lt. Gov. Brian Krolicki on trumped up charges of allegedly illegal conduct while he was state treasurer. This occurred within a week after Krolicki indicated that he might challenge Sen. Harry Reid, who as everyone knows, is entitled to hold his seat for life.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:11 pm 17. New Paltz Journal » Blog Archive » A political arrest in the UK:

[...] Kimball has the details: The horrific story of the latest adventure conducted by the religion of peace in Bombay riveted [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:20 pm 18. Michael Lonie:

King Charles I tried to arrest five members. Brown is a piker for going after only one. No wonder Britain’s political and chattering classes are so determined to keep Britons disarmed.

I’d suggest the Queen intervene to do something about this trend, but I suspect she is too set in the “reign not rule” mode to do anything. Charles probably sympathizes with the fascistically oriented members of the political classes. Better hope for a “Meiji Restoration” from King William V, if he ever comes to the throne.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:25 pm 19. RAH:

This is hysteria. Mr. Green was civil servant nad he revealed confidential information to the political opposition and that was a trangession of his profession. I suggest you go to EUReferdum.com to get the facts and not this drama about how freedom is ending to the arrest of a person who gave confidential info to the political opposition.

This is similar to the Ohio state offficial that searced Joe the Plumber and released the info to the Obama campaign and the press.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:28 pm 20. KB:

TomJW,

“How did a government learn to hate its own culture and history?”

Wrong question. Try: “How did a culture allow its government to be taken over by those who have always hated that culture and its history?”

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:30 pm 21. Daily Pundit » Liberal Fascism Rampant:

[...] Roger’s Rules » How Democracies Perish, British Edition The ever percipient Janet Daley, writing in the London Telegraph, got it exactly right: Mr. Green’s arrest, and the government’s subsequent denial of knowledge of or responsibility for the actions of the police, represents a “grotesque breach of political freedom and constitutional principle.” [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:42 pm 22. jimbob:

to get an idea of the anger here in the uk please see

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2008/dec/01/damian-green-humanrights

this is written from a libertarian perspective from the left wing uk guardian paper. it gives an idea of the anger that is being provoked by gordon brown trying to turn my country into zimbabwe. widespread anger here across the political spectrum.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:45 pm 23. Billy Beck:

“Democracies” deserve to perish, fool.

Listen: you’re the guy who refused to believe that the imbeciles in America would actually elect Obama. I asked you a question about that — before the fact — and I would be interested in your answer.

Just what was it that you were wrong about?

I’m not interested in another goddamned thing you say until you show me some serious reflection on this.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:47 pm 24. Follow Me!:

Hey, didn’t some MP do roughly the same thing in WWII? he mentioned some things on the House floor about German rearmament and British preparedness–and was prosecuted and the prosecutors had to back off. They were trying to prosecute a House member for doing his official business. I think the entire house voted to clear him too. Same result this time?

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:49 pm 25. paul:

We can expect similar stories in the US.

Obamachev isn’t going to countenance the virulent opposition W suffered.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:50 pm 26. vanderleun:

Yet again we note, regarding England and elsewhere, once you can remove weapons from the people, you can do anything.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:54 pm 27. cubanbob:

In decent third world countries these clowns would have been put in front of a firing squad.
That the Torrie’s have not even tried to pull a vote of no confidence is as much an admission of their incompetence and unfitness to govern as a caution on their moral character to govern. American’s should not be too smug; we are not so far behind the UK as well.

Dec 2, 2008 - 2:55 pm 28. monkeyfan:

Cantormania:

“And Americans just voted for the smiling face of Big Brother.

Let’s hope that Obama has the character to refuse the power his supports would give him.”

He’s no George Washington…

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:06 pm 29. A Blow to Political Freedom in the UK — The New Clarion:

[...] miss Roger Kimball’s stunning story of Damian Green, a conservative MP in Britain who was arrested, questioned for nine hours and had his private [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:12 pm 30. Brian G.:

Funny that Democrats in this country would love to do the same to Bush and Cheney.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:13 pm 31. Martin McPhillips:

RAH writes:

“This is hysteria. Mr. Green was civil servant nad he revealed confidential information to the political opposition and that was a trangession of his profession. I suggest you go to EUReferdum.com to get the facts and not this drama about how freedom is ending to the arrest of a person who gave confidential info to the political opposition.

This is similar to the Ohio state offficial that searced Joe the Plumber and released the info to the Obama campaign and the press.”

A Member of Parliament is a “civil servant”? Isn’t an MP a representative of the people of his district? A postman is a civil servant.

And is there not a yawning chasm of difference between a government’s policies (which MP Green discussed openly in Commons) and the personal details of private citizen Joe the Plumber?

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:13 pm 32. matt:

It’s England. But for Churchill, they would have gone down the rathole of history in 1939/40. The “intelligentsia” in the UK, was decayed and dessicated in the aftermath of World War I and has never really recovered. Subverted by the USSR in the 30’s, blighted by postwar malaise in the 50’s, The UK that I knew, much as I love her, is long gone. Lack of faith, multiculturalism gone wild, amd economic indiscipline post Thatcher have all played their part in the dissolution of the social and political fabric.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:24 pm 33. Reggie:

Decent third-world countries?

And they are….?

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:25 pm 34. matt:

here comes Orwell’s 1984, just a few years late.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:25 pm 35. Cobdeluxe:

“American’s should not be too smug; we are not so far behind the UK as well.”

Yes yes..we’ve been on the verge of a police state blah blah from Bush’s Gestapo for 7+ years now. I’m not counseling against eternal vigilence, but I think Tom Wolfe had it right (so far):

“The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe,”

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:26 pm 36. Tom Holsinger:

RAH plays the usual lefty game of inventing facts. Damien Green was a Member of Parliament, i.e., an elected official rather than a civil servant, and he is also the shadow Home Minister of the Conservative Party, i.e., he’d be the LEADER of the British police forces if the Conservatives held power.

And, if they win the next general election, I hope he becomes Home Minister and fires all the people involved, plus a few score more senior police officials to encourage the others.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:28 pm 37. Donald Sensing:

Oh, what the heck - let’s just blame George W. Bushitler and be done with it. Saves us the trouble of having actually to think.

And the Patriot Act, let’s blame that, too.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:30 pm 38. Formwiz:

Thinking Person and KB nailed it. If we have more of the same here, you can thank the disciples of Saul Alinsky, and we all know who they are.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:31 pm 39. SiouxLady:

Geez, Roger! How much more of this can a 67 year old with a stent who smokes and drinks too much take? Don’t you have any good news!

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:42 pm 40. Federalist Paupers » Blog Archive » More on Damian Green:

[...] together The Guardian and The Telegraph both are furious at Labour’s abuse of power. (H/T Roger Kimball, whose whole post should also be read in [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:52 pm 41. Dr. Lumplevin:

It was right that this miscreant rebel and threat to the public welfare. He was a racist bigot and needed to get dealt with by the state. The truth is that men are tired of liberty anyway. It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity. This was simply a little civicslesson, for rebels and for Brist in general. What Brits want is stability, peace, unity and men of bold, daring vision to lead them.

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:57 pm 42. janefromvancouver:

Disturbing attacks on democracy and free speech are occurring under the Vancouver City government too. There are some signs that people are fighting back though.

The Vancouver School Board has been accused of practicing Soviet-style “political psychiatry”. In Vancouver you can find an armed police officer and a psychiatric nurse on your doorstep to assess you for “apprehension” to a mental hospital should you dare reveal an intent to campaign against the Board in an election or make freedom of information requests. One of these psych reports, written by psych nurse Don Getz who was accompanied by Constable Michelle Sevigny, literally stated the official reason for the visit as “freedom of informatioin requests”.

Canadians Opposing Political Psychiatry, as an “absolute last resort”, has organized an international boycott of diplomas issued by the Vancouver School Board until this policy changes.

And the City of Vancouver has demonstrated that they are not above interfering with election results if they don’t happen to like who gets elected. When a homeless man, William Simpson, was elected to the Board of Directors of Carnegie Center operated by the City of Vancouver, City staff banned him from the building and denied him access to Board meetings for the duration of his term. They informed him in writing that the ban was due to the fact that he operated a website which “features links” to the Downtown Eastside Enquirer blogspot which criticized City staff (they couldn’t identify anything libelous.) At subsequent meetings, he was listed as “absent without notice”.

The world will get to meet the woman who has been Vancouver City Manager while “police state” tactics have emerged, Judy Rogers. Rogers will be on the world stage when Vancouver hosts the 2010 Winter Olympics.

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:02 pm 43. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:

Remember, remember, the fifth of November…

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:15 pm 44. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Well….

….if Obama can flaunt the Constitution of the United States by violating Article 1 Section 6, vis-a-vis Senator Clinton being appointed Secretary of State after she voted on a pay raise for that position….

….I don’t see any reason why he won’t violate the same document regarding what members of Congress say on the floor of their respective house speaking out against some presidential/administration malfeasance or incompetence, in the manner Roger is reporting about here in England.

Indeed, I think he’d find what happened over there to be an ‘inspiration’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. And I suspect that will apply to bloggers and other news media that decry his administration too…..

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:24 pm 45. Mr. Orwell, Call Your Office « Buttle’s World:

[...] Your Office Filed under: Posts — buttle @ 15:43 Roger Kimball has just noticed that democracy is dead in England. The horrific story of the latest adventure conducted by the religion of peace in Bombay riveted [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:43 pm 46. Phineas:

I know it happened in the UK, but can I still blame Bush and Cheney?

/tinfoilhat

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:48 pm 47. ZZMike:

I refer to the country as Formerly Great Britain. There are too many news stories coming from there, stories that prove that the madmen are in charge.

RAH said: “… revealed confidential information …”???

Was it “confidential information” that “Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers,”? If so, why? What aspect of National Security were they trying to protect?

Was it “confidential information” that “an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons”? Was this covered under the Official Secrets Act?

vanderleun said: “Yet again we note, regarding England and elsewhere, once you can remove weapons from the people, you can do anything.”

That, and “anything can happen” - just look at Mumbai.

Dec 2, 2008 - 4:49 pm 48. Michael B:

The following - because it reflects upon what is virtually a ubiquitous phenomenon in executive, legislative and judicial branches of govt; in media outlets; in parlors and salons that variously inform and leverage power - is worthy of some pointed emphasis, some repetition:

“I am glad that Ms. Daley mentioned the flagrant abuse of language that accompanies these outrages. The collusion of totalitarianism and such abuse was something that George Orwell understood and publicized to arresting effect in 1984. At bottom, it flows from the effort to bend reality to suit utopian fantasies. Stage one is an unwillingness to call things by their real names: euphemism in the service of ideology.”

Dylan sings “we live in a political world …,” though a bit more accurately put we live in an era of ideological triumphalism and presumption in general, with no end in sight. This is obviously true in terms of the totalitarian Islamicist ideology that is manifest in varied forms, while always seeking expanses of power, but it is likewise true of varied and sundry Leftist and derivative leftist manifestation. One is an attack upon basic precepts from outside, the other an attack from within, a type of parasitic and ever morphing influence. In both cases those formulations can readily be reduced to strawman conceptions that, in turn, can be dismissed, but the threads of truth remain nonetheless, they do not disappear as a result of strawman dismissals.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:18 pm 49. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: ERRATA!

That statement I made about Obama ‘flaunt’ the Constitution should read “flout”.

My apologies.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The only Guy I know who was perfect, got nailed to a tree for it.]

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:18 pm 50. Political freedom? British Tory MP arrested for criticising the government:

[...] http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2008/12/02/how-democracies-perish-british-edition/ [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:24 pm 51. veracious:

Britain was bought many years ago by foreign wealth; the new owners are just starting to implement new pogroms.

“Something wicked this way comes…” trillions of foreign dollars have been purchasing USA over the years, also. This is why the actions of our government seem so outright alien to We the People. When 80% of US say no, they do it anyway.

New owners are making (policy) changes! Foreign owners have interests which differ from ours, duh.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:40 pm 52. coniston:

cubanbob. The Tories cannot do anything right now as parliament is not in session. The arrest happened just as they broke up..The Queen comes tomorrow and of course (as Cameron has stated) they will do nothing to disturb this tradition. But Debate will happen asap. Anyone who cares about liberty is deeply upset, irrespective of party. Brown may try to shut it down with the use of whips (37 paid ‘civil servants’ at the behest of NuLabour) as he has done in the past but I don’t think this thuggery trick will work this time. The Brits are very slow to anger and usually not prone to raising their voices. But many are hopping mad. As well they should be.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:45 pm 53. Don Kilmer:

Good thing American Senators and Representatives have Article I, Section 6, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:46 pm 54. David:

I’m afraid this is exactly the kind of thing we’re going to be seeing in the USA after 20 January. Obama’s tugs are going to be doing this to the opposition, just like the Clintons did. You just can be critical of the messiah!

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:48 pm 55. Joshua:

#42: Remember, remember, the fifth of November…

Which, ironically enough, happened to be the date (reckoning by London time) on which Obama went over the 270-EV mark to win the presidential election.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:57 pm 56. Helen:

Errm, not precisely. We have laws about civil servants leaking information. The Official Secrets Act goes back to 1911. You may argue that it should be abolished but until it is, civil servants who leak confidential material (in this case entirely for party political purposes) and politicians who are in receipt of it and who then pass it on to the media are in breach of that law. I am afraid Damien Green and his supporters seem to think that he, being an MP, is above the law. Not precisely what a democracy is about.

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:59 pm 57. Roy M:

Martin,

No the ‘civil servant’ was the civil servant who gave the information to the MP. The MP was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office, which contrary to what Roger has quoted is a criminal offence.

However if the MP were to use the information in the House of Commons then that would be protected under parliamentary privilege. If the MP got information from the civil servant, didn’t use it in the house, but published it elsewhere then it wouldn’t be protected.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:06 pm 58. Roy M:

I was shocked to discover that someone illegally cleaned the house of commons. Thank god for men like Damian Green. Illegal cleaning needs to be stamped out now.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:11 pm 59. No Runny Eggs » Blog Archive » Decline and Fall of the British Empire - parts 3,432,125 and 3,432,126:

[...] of coddling of illegal aliens by the ruling Labour Party on the floor of the House of Commons. Roger Kimball has a rather good wrapup of reaction on the far side of the pond. [link] [...]

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:25 pm 60. Follow Me!:

But . . .if the OSA was applied in 1937-39 in the same manner, Churchill would have been arrested. He routinely received reports of Britain’s loss of air parity, arms shipments, and home defense readiness.

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:31 pm 61. CBDenver:

I first read of this story on a European site called EURSOC http://www.eursoc.com/. Perhaps other would like to add it to their favorites list?

Dec 2, 2008 - 6:32 pm 62. RAH:

Whoops I mistook Green for Chris Galley, the civil servant that leaked the info to Green the opposition minister.

Police search of Green’s home and office is overkill to find out whether Galley was promised a job by Green or not.

Civil servants cannot leak info to other ministers, if they have a concern they take it up to their superiors. Politics is not supposed to effect the civil service.

I doubt the police will be able to support the misconduct charge on Green, but he did appear to have Galley’s confidential information.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:02 pm 63. RAH:

Civil servants get all sorts of information that can be used to embarass or blackmail government officials or MP’s. That is why I compared to the Ohio state official that leaked Joe the plumber info about tax lien, custody and his driving record.

Britains’ laws are differnt from our in that if a Senator ot House representative uses confidential info on the floor to embarrass another , they will not get prosecuted.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:09 pm 64. Jim O'Sullivan:

I’m surprised by the result of that MIT struy, runbei. I always spot typos on-screen in stuff that I’ve first proofread in hard copy, but hardly ever is the reverse true.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:13 pm 65. RAH:

Here is the link that I read about this issue
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/11/losing-plot.html

The issue is that Green a former journalist was using the leaked info to embarrass his opposition. He did not bring up on the floor wher it is priveldge speech.
The police followed the rules, just Britain has strange rules compared to the US.

Dec 2, 2008 - 7:13 pm 66. coniston:

Helen,
you’ve got the spin - not the truth. Damian Green is not a civil servant he is a Member of Parliament and the Shadow Home Secretary - i.e. the equivalent of the Secretary of State if the Tories were to gain control of the government. The leaked material was not done for party political purposes, it was done to expose government corruption and ineptitude in immigration policy. To the tune of having 5,000 illegal immigrants working as SECURITY OFFICERS due to their bungling. Green was arrested and held for nine hours with his offices and private home searched with computers and thousands of documents taken by the COUNTERTERROSIM police. Labour is denying that it knew about the arrest beforehand. OK. So no one in the government authorised the arrest. the counterterroism police did it all on their own - entered Parliament and removed documents. Took his landline, mobile, computer, hub from his private home. RIIIIGHT. That’s why Scotland Yard has announced an inquiry and charges could be brought. Everything that the left has accused Bush of doing, Brown has actually done. It’s as if Bush had ordered the arrest of Harry Reid and had the CIA remove of all of Harry Reid’s computers etc etc and all documents including all his correspondence with his constituents. Outrage is justified.

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Dec 2, 2008 - 8:38 pm 68. African Moondog:

That this can happen in the United Kingkom, in the House of Commons is mind-blowing and so frightening.

In Apartheid South Africa, where the security police had almost unfettered powers of arrest, detention without trial for an unlimited period, and “extra judicial execution”; the only constraint placed upon them was the fact that opposition Members of Parliament could, within the chamber, expose their activity and grill the responsible Minister without fear of any retribution whatsoever. Opposition Members of Parliament like Helen Suzman made full use of the chamber.

If a bunch of undisguised fascists running a police state respected the sanctity of Parliament, what is wrong with those who have a majority in the “Mother of all Paliaments”? Perhaps the British Government needs an elementary course in civics. This action is probably the most frightening development in the West in decades.

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:15 pm 69. Mike_K:

Rah, no doubts believes that Churchill should have been prosecuted for his flagrant spying on British preparedness from 1938 to 1939. Many of his informants were well aware of the risk they took but they were concerned wit the good of the country, just like Green. This is little surprise. I was in England for News Years and had an interesting experience. I blogged about it at the time. The British are losing their history and the education system is responsible. The next step is tyranny.

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:44 pm 70. Peter the Australian:

Paliamentary privilege goes beyond what is said in Parliament. By acting the way they did, the UK police have committed a breach of privilege, in that they have prevented Mr Green from representing his constituents by taking away his records.

Heads will roll in the Police Force.

Dec 2, 2008 - 11:52 pm 71. jonesy55:

The arrest is certainly concerning, and if it was approved by the government then it’s especially worrying.

But civil servants are not supposed to leak confidential information, this is a criminal offence, and if MPs have concerns should raise these concerns in the House, if Mr Green had done this he would be protected by law. Instead though he decided to take the information to the media to gain maximum political capital out of it.

But even so, the action by the police seems out of proportion and if anti-terror legislation was used then it proves the point of the many of us that argued that these new laws were dangerous as governments would be tempted to spread their use to non-terrorism situations. After their use in freezing Icelandic bank assets, this concern is surely well-founded.

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:06 am 72. Helen:

No Coniston, you are the one who got the spin. The Tory spin. They want votes. Galley was sending all sorts of stuff to Green, including confidential letters between Ministers. This was not a whistleblower deciding that he was too outraged to play the game by the rules and dam’ the consequences. This was a political wannabe looking to a political career. As somebody pointed out, if Green had used the information (the two documents that were important) in the House, the situation would have been different. He did not. He sent it to the media. That is known as breaking the law. Are we to assume that MPs should be above the law in the way members of the European Parliament are? As for rules being a bit odd in Britain, I seem to recall the odd problem or two in America about confidential information being leaked.

Dec 3, 2008 - 4:29 am 73. suztours:

KB wrote “How did a culture allow its government to be taken over by those who have always hated that culture and its history?”

This is the question we are asking ourselves in Israel where the leftist Kadima government is doing all it can to stamp out any real connection to Judaism and Jewish tradition!

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:17 am 74. Ann:

11. “Americans just voted for the smiling face of big brother.”

I think it’s very important to keep in focus that 58 million, 343 thousand, 671 Americans did NOT vote for Barack Hussein Obama and everything he represents.

Hang on to this number! Use it! He did NOT have any kind of a landslide and he does NOT have a mandate and for crying out loud, let’s not be acting like he did.

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:25 am 75. Adina:

Lest anyone thinks that such outrages are unique to Britain, let them think again.
Israel has a long history of detaining and conflating lies against its more nationalist Jewish brothers and sisters. Whereas the Arab enemy within is treated as the ‘victim’ while they rampage and riot, the Jewish nationalists are maligned and incited against. One should dare not think this undemocratic treatment is reserved for simple citizens. Arab MK’s can rail, defame, and incite against Israel whenever the wind suits them, but heaven forfend a Jewish nationalist MK does so. Generally they are detained, incited against, or like Rabbi Kahane, actually banned from the leadership and thrown in jail!a

Dec 3, 2008 - 5:28 am 76. Richard:

Sorry to disappoint you guys but Mr Green was arrested because he had a permanent Tory mole in the Cabinet Office who was routinely passing on information.

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:16 am 77. This is how it goes: opposition MP arrested and held for embarassing Gordon Brown:

[...] Absolutely shameful. [...]

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:28 am 78. Timothy McCaig:

As I recall, Winston Churchill, in the 1930’s was also a receipient of leaked government information on the appalling state of the British armed forces. He used this information as a member of the opposition to question the government’s commitment to the defense of the nation as the Nazi’s ramped up for war. I don’t recall him being arrested and having his papers taken…how the times have changed.

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:00 am 79. The Ratnest » Blog Archive » Through a Mirror, Darkly:

[...] A nation that was the true inspiration for the graphic novel “V for Vendetta” has gone beyond speech codes, surveillance cameras, and gun bans: Britain is the cradle of modern democracy and [...]

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:38 am 80. David H:

During the last Tory government I remember various current Labour Ministers including the current PM waving papers they ‘borrowed’ in the same way much to the anger of the then Tory government.

They obviously tried to locate the people leaking the information, as this was against the terms of their employment but they never arrested Gordon Brown among many…

Dec 3, 2008 - 7:40 am 81. tmoreland:

“runbei:

will second the poster who pointed out the copyediting failures in this article. have found countless, embarrassing mistakes in pajamas media articles in the past. you’d think they’d take more pride in their final copy.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:03 am 82. Jonesy55:

Timothy #78

Did Winston Churchill pass these leaked documents to the media to gain political advantage or did he use them responsibly to ask questions in the house?

Did he actively court leaks from a member of the civil service who wanted advancement in the conservative party?

There is a difference, both legally and in my opinion, ethically.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:25 am 83. LogicalUS:

Look at the leftist even here, they can find ways to excuse any behavior as long as it protects their power.

They are not worried that their man and his government were shown to be pieces of crap concerning security and immigration, no they offer misdirections about political advantage and “civil servants” to avoid facing the fact that leftists used the police force to intimidate the opposition.

The exact same thing happened here when Barry Soetoro Obama walked up to “Joe the Plumber”’s yard and got a simple question which Barry screwed up. His leftist supporters in government and the media instantly rushed to Obama’s defense by using the computers of the government of Ohio to investigate this American citizen and pass this information along to their media friends who gladly attempted to smear him in order to protect their leftist ally. All this happened to the cheering support of the American left.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:59 am 84. Dodgeblogium » More on Damien Green MP & his arrest…:

[...] sure making strange bedfellows. Roger Kimball in PJM and Henry Potter in the Guardian on the same page on this issue. Its very good to see that someone [...]

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:24 am 85. Andrew Ian Dodge:

Good piece and glad to see you referred to that excellent piece in the Guardian.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:28 am 86. Jonesy55:

Logical US.

If those person within the government of Ohio can be identified then they should certainly be fired and probably prosecuted. If it can be shown that Democrat politicians actively encouraged this abuse of position then they too should be investigated, just as has happened in this case in the UK.

I agree that this case raises some concerns but you can’t just have officials breaking the laws and their employment contracts without censure. Whether Mr Green MP has done anything wrong himself to my mind will depend on whether he was the passive recipient of leaked material which he then used responsibly or whether he was implicated more deeply than that in actively encouraging the breaking of the law.

I am not in any way condoning the UK HOme Office’s handling of immigration which has often been shambolic but that is a seperate issue, the means are not justified by the ends.

Dec 3, 2008 - 9:31 am 87. cubanbob:

“35. Cobdeluxe:

“American’s should not be too smug; we are not so far behind the UK as well.”

Yes yes..we’ve been on the verge of a police state blah blah from Bush’s Gestapo for 7+ years now. I’m not counseling against eternal vigilence, but I think Tom Wolfe had it right (so far):

“The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe,”

Dec 2, 2008 - 3:26 pm”

1-There is always a first time.
2-I was refering the the former Clinton Administration and the newly resurrected Clinton team.

“52. coniston:

Dec 2, 2008 - 5:45 pm”

1- I have family in the UK so this slippery slope is a bit worrisome.
2- Cameron appears to be a UK version of a RINO.

Dec 3, 2008 - 10:30 am 88. dgf:

The French police were also politically active last weekend in ways that might interest those who are shocked by the treatment of Mr Green. The former editor of the Left wing newspaper Libération was arrested at his home in Paris at six in the morning in front of his astonished and frightened children in connection with a two-year-old criminal investigation into a defamation allegation. The arresting officers allegedly told the indignant journalist he was ‘worse than scum’. At the police station, he was strip searched, a procedure which includes anal violation. Before he was taken before an investigative magistrate, the police turned him over to gendarmes who are a separate, para-military, police force in France. Although the journalist had been under constant guard since his detention, the gendarmes, who knew this, subjected him to a second strip search and a second anal violation. The journalist had not even been personally been responsible for the alleged defamation although he had been the editor at the time that it was posted on Libération’s website by a reader and he was held to be technically responsible. Since he lives at home with his family and continues to work for the newspaper, there was no need whatsoever to arrest him under such dramatic circumstances or to subject him to wanton sexual humiliation at this stage in an enquiry that has lasted for two years. Yet both the justice minister and the interior minister publicly defended the police and the gendarmerie for following recognised procedure. This is what can happen to anyone who is arrested in Europe for any reason at all and being politically, socially and professionally prominent like Mr Green or the Paris journalist is no defence against abuse by the overweening state. I suppose that in both Left wing Britain, which leads the world in spying on its citizenry, and Right wing France, where the police unions wield political clout, we have the police we deserve. But it’s hardly surprising some people are unhappy.

Dec 3, 2008 - 1:22 pm 89. Brian Richard Allen:

As already went once “great” (or so it was once rumored) Britain, (now better known as the Eurabian Neo-Soviet’s Squalidly FasciSSocialistic Offshore Satellite Sub-states) now, since its November 4 2008 National Suicide, goeth our beloved fraternal republic. And, with it, the remnants of the very Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization we have long vanguarded and for as long, have guarded.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles - CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 3, 2008 - 6:35 pm 90. Peter the Australian:

Lots of errors in these comments. Churchill was not a memebr of the Opposition in the 30s but a backbench GOVERNMENT MP.

Parliamentary privilege extends much further than words spoken in the House. It extends to all areas of an MPs work. Briefing the media is part of that work as an MP and is therefore subject to privilege.

In any case, why shouldn’t any MP have access to any government paper that he or she wishes to see. parliament is meant to oversee the Govvernment. That is why there has never been a successful prosecution of any civil servant who has handed papers to an MP, nor of any MP who has received them.

Helen’s comments above are very worrying, as she is meekly accepting the Labor spin that there can be no smoke without fire. Does she not realise that the Labor party, so deparately awful and hopeless at governing, is shit-scared that it will be wiped out at the next election. Accordingly, it is trying to stop the Opposition from revealing its complete ineptitutde by allowing the police to act in a bully-boy fashion against shadow ministers.

Dec 3, 2008 - 8:02 pm 91. African Moondog:

Everybody seems to have forgotten an ancient principle here. King Charles I ignored it too when he tried have MPs arrested in the Houses of Parliament.

The end result was it was Parliament’s painful duty to remove the King’s head from the rest of his body.

Dec 3, 2008 - 11:20 pm 92. Jonesy55:

African Moondog,

Immunity from arrest within the Palace of Westminster only applies to civil matters, not criminal ones. Parliamentary privilege does not stop the operation of criminal law, see Erskine May chapter 7.

Of more concern to me than his arrest is that Mr Green’s parliamentary correspondence, computer files etc were taken without the commons officials insisting that the police get a warrnt and prove that they had the legal power to do this first.

It seems that if anybody it is ultimately the Speaker who failed in his duty to protect the House and MPs. If the police were acting beyong their powers, it was up to the speaker to be aware of this, to claim that ‘he wasn’t told that the police didn’t have a warrant’ isn’t good enough.

Dec 4, 2008 - 4:14 am 93. ehunter:

SO WHAT..?
There are 50,000 illegal aliens living in Langley Park, Maryland within site of the US Capitol Dome. ICE could arrest 10,000 on any
given morning in the Langley Crossroads shopping
center New Hampshire Ave/Rte 410. Everytime I hear about a “major” bust of 200 illegals in some remote rural meat packing plant I laugh in derision…Hey US Congress ..drive down New
Hampshire Ave North to the Beltway on the way home from work and check out REALITY.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:55 am 94. Mary Jackson:

Even the very pro-Labour BBC were shocked by this outrage. I am not surprised by it, sadly. All socialist governments are Stalinist to a greater or lesser degree. New Labour pretended to be less socialist/Stalinist in order to get elected. Now they are simply showing their true colours.

The only good thing is that this means Labour is more likely than ever to get kicked out at the next election.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:20 am 95. Marie Claude:

dgf, if you knew the rules, these are practices when your arrested, may-be when the police made it the 2nd time, it was mere “humiliation”, also depends on what discourse hold this gui

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:40 am 96. David H:

71. jonesy55: The most shocking thing for me was the use of the law that allows the confiscation of assets from criminal bosses against two fishermen who exceeded their quotas.

Dec 4, 2008 - 11:45 am 97. The Whale:

So So SO Typical of the Left. I expect Obama’s crowd to pull the same crap here in the States. Clinton did it. And his old crew of lefty anti democracy Sociopaths has already infected Obama’s cabinet. Everyone going after the left on line better start using software that hides their identity. The left will be coming after you, most likely thru the IRS. Thats their Gestapo. But, realy what do you expect from people who ban Smoking In BARS, pull people over for not wearing a seat belt, require an eye exam to buy fake contact lenses,never fix the roads, raise the salarys of teachers who can’t teach, double your property taxes every few years, line the pockets of their political hack friends with your tax money and mostly think that the constitution of the Usa is a Flexible document that allows them to rape and pillage at will. THis is Blog FRee America poster the whale hiding somewhere in nazi jersey waiting for that knock at the door. Your Papers Please.

Dec 4, 2008 - 2:43 pm 98. RF:

Nice story to keep the light on a dark subject.
What a crummy thing to have to do to your own countryman.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:29 am 99. Mike:

The proper response to this type of brutal repression is no longer non-violent. The madmen over there arrested a MP for revealing that ILLEGALS were being assisted by the Gov’t. Seems the lackeys of Islam will no longer tolerate the long established rule of law. We Yanks over here may be persuaded to re institute lend-lease for private firearms to private citizens (oops, I mean SUBJECTS) if they promise armed resistance to this group of Islamofascist thugs. I have a nice Rossi .38 Special I can spare. To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes: Watson, bring your service revolver.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:05 am 100. cfbleachers:

Heaven help us and save us from being ruled by those who mean to impose their “utopia” upon us, in the form of gags and shackles.

They teach us “tolerance” by their slander of our beliefs.

They teach us “free speech” by silencing our dissent.

They teach us “freedom of religion” by accusing Evangelicals and Jews of all the world’s ills.

They teach us “objective coverage and reporting” by fauxtography, staged events, phony sourcing, forged documents, parsed words, half-truths and distortions.

They teach us “government in the sunshine” by sealed documents, uninvestigated fraud, sweetheart mortgage deals, cooked books and pardons for donors.

They teach us “loyalty and patriotism” by incessantly trashing our motherland and finding “root causes” for our enemies and “root blame” for us.

They teach us “fairness doctrines” by hauling Mark Steyn before tribunals for addressing key facts, by allowing serial offenders to make a mockery of the UN’s committees on issues related to racism, peace and almost anything to do with Israel, and they have their gunsights set on Rush Limbaugh and Fox News…but form a protective shield around Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews.

They teach us each and every day, from the lecterns in the ivy covered walls of academia, from the clattering keyboards in newsrooms, from the backlots of Hollywood and from the halls of Congress and the Parliament…that utopia comes from the freedom one gains when he is forced to relinquish his rights, his honor, his voice and his beliefs.

Freedom comes from surrender. Honor stems from treason. Truth stems from slander.

Leftism has thrown down the gauntlet and slapped the face of mankind. The meek perhaps shall inherit the earth, but who should want what is left of it if we allow such shallow men to lead us?

Have we become so timid and myopic that we no longer confront obvious deceit? Are we so afraid of being “labeled” by fascists that we no longer confront their distortions and flagrant disingenuousness? Right is right, fair is fair, wrong is wrong, truth is truth. Or am I mistaken?

The Queen’s subjects in Canada, America, Australia may no longer be loyal to the crown, but have we forgotten our heritage in the common law, our common committment to our pursuit of freedom, justice and honor?

If we will not stand together for all that is right, then we deserve to kneel before all that is wrong. Rampant leftism is a disease spiraling into totalitarianism. Where are those who will stand up against it? The timid and the halting need not apply.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:18 am 101. Jack:

hey The Whale,
look up sociopath in the dictionary, defines a Republican doesn’t it?

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:17 pm