60 Comments

1. bibio44:

“You lie!” said Rep. Joe Wilson the other day as President Obama was addressing Congress….

Ah, if only a few Democrats had similarly shouted (not “said,” Rog, SHOUTED) “You lie!” at the previous incumbent, 4,000+ Americans might still be alive today.

Sep 14, 2009 - 8:47 am 2. Owen:

As a Canadian living in Europe I have experience of both state and privatized medical care. Attacks against Obama’s effort to drag American healthcare screaming and kicking into the 20th century – yes I said 20th – consistently fail to address two key points.

One: publicly funded health care systems such as Canada’s cost ONE HALF as much as the current American system.

Two: Canadian life expectancy is in fact HIGHER with public health care, then the laughably corrupt system the author defends here.

Conclusion: Canadian public health care does a better job for half the money.

In all the fearmongering and jawdropping ignorance around this issue I have yet to come across a single critic who acknowledges the above points. Instead, since their position has no REASONABLE arguments to support it, they consistently edit out key data such as the above and seek to sway the debate with appeals to irrational fears.

I think the term is ‘demagoguery’?

C’mon, Mr.Kimball, I dare ya! Do you have ANYTHING to say to these two points? Or will you continue to rely on manipulative fact-lite emotional appeals to establish realworld policy with implications for the lives of millions?

Like I said, the 20th century is waiting.

Sep 14, 2009 - 9:09 am 3. Gaffe Prices:

Death Panels indeed,

but at least they’re NICE™ about it.

Sep 14, 2009 - 10:51 am 4. Duke of Sharon:

Owen,
I’ll take a stab at it on behalf of Mr. Kimball; and I’ll even spot you your two points and assume that health care costs less in Canada and that Canadians live longer. And, by the way, I don’t expect this argument to convince you. I only hope to show you where we’re coming from:
Even if government regulation of health care were “better” for me in every objectively verifiable way, I would still be against it. The only legitimate role of the Federal Government is to secure the Liberty of We the People who created that Government. When We the People created this Government, we consentually assigned it certain very limited powers. When it acts beyond those powers, it acts without our consent. Even when it does this for our “good” it is an act of brutality.
To put it another way, and to quote from the Big Lebowski (something I attempt to do once per day): “Ya know Walter, there IS an unspoken message here. IT’S F%$# YOU! LEAVE ME THE F*&% ALONE!”
Seriously, could you just leave me alone?

Sep 14, 2009 - 1:32 pm 5. Gaffe Prices:

good one Duke.

Sep 14, 2009 - 2:28 pm 6. SoberHorseThief:

Whenever I hear about the NICE, I don’t think of Orwell (appropriate as that is) so much as C.S. Lewis. In “That Hideous Strength” (the third book of the Space Trilogy) the National Institute of Coordinated Experiments — NICE, of course — is nothing less than a diabolical plot against mankind. Do these National Health people read nothing?

Sep 14, 2009 - 5:57 pm 7. Brian:

I also have experience in Canadian and American health care, in Canada it is much easier to get health care, the problem lies with medical care. It is very difficult to find Doctors in Canada that will take you as a patient. If life expectancy is higher in Canada, you can probably thank the American drug companies and American healthcare for paying for it.

One more question Owen how many people rush to Canada from the USA for medical care?

Sep 15, 2009 - 8:00 am 8. Mike:

Is there really anyone left in the thinking world, who doesn’t know that life expectancy and the efficacy of health care are two completely different things? Here are more than two things that, I hope, save Mr. Kimball the time to respond to idiocy.

Murders, car crashes and infant mortality affect life expectancy. Take just those out and American life expectancy goes ahead of Owen’s miracle countries. And, to save Owen the effort to leap onto infant mortality as an indicator of health care efficacy, it doesn’t work. First, we count it differently and much more conservatively. Second, there are a whole bunch of other factors that really, really matter.

Health care efficacy is measured by how, for example, people survive heart attacks and cancer. America leads both Canada and Europe across the board.

Sep 15, 2009 - 11:12 am 9. buddy larsen:

Obama’s entire life experience is that leftist milieu that always gets very excited whenever comes ’round an outsider with a camera or pencil threatening “scrutiny”. These folks make careers bellowing lies at each other and nodding their heads vigorously all around, and they all know it, all understand what they are doing. It’s the party ritual and like a pecking order works fine in the home barnyard. Of course, out of the barnyard, the old flappin’ don’t fly so good.

Sep 15, 2009 - 11:20 am 10. Pajamas Media » Obama, Home of the Whopper:

[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]

Sep 15, 2009 - 12:55 pm 11. Professor Guvinoff:

Scientific discourse is based on a vigorous attempt to eliminate emotion from the arguments. Political discourse based on emotional arguments can be just as effective (and often more effective) than arguments driven by facts and reason.

This is how idealistic Americans will grant the benefit of the doubt to “hope and change” arguments, if the delivery is melodious enough, which it was. In this bargain there was no explicit trade-off (Take my trust and fulfill my wishes), but the magnitude of the trust investment commands the intensity of pain caused by the loss of faith if the tacit deal is broken, which it was, at least to a significant number of Americans.

None of this is easy to quantify, but most of it can be felt. Otherwise, why would the tea partiers be denied the most elementary consideration by those who sense the threat to their cherished utopian vision?

The protestors can win if they engage their opponents with more humanity than they have received so far. I believe they are capable of it.

The breach of decorum in the chamber was precisely the example of what not to do, regardless of how well it might have reflected the urge of some of the television audience. Keep you cool, and be considerate to those who have not felt the pain of disillusion.

Sep 15, 2009 - 1:12 pm 12. Right as well as Correct:

The author links to two EXCELLENT articles here. Should be required reading for the all of the Owens out there.

Seriously, we should have some sympathy for Owen. Poor guy is going to have to wait six months for his blood test results. Oh well, as long as he’s ok with it.

Not for me though!

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:02 pm 13. deguello:

#1 BIBIO 44:”You lie”! said the school psychologist to your mother, after he finished evaluating your intelligence”His IQ is not 44 it’s less than 20!

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:11 pm 14. deguello:

#1 BIBIOT44 “You lie gringo”!Said the underage Honduran prostitute,hired by ACORN in payment for BIBIOT’s libtard trolling.Not only was I not able to find it with a magnifying glass like you told me, but you also lied about you not having VD!Now I got to support Obama health care so I can fix my gonorrhea! you gringo S%$T!

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:18 pm 15. Scott:

#2

Population of Canada: 33,763,000

Population of the US: 303,500,000

So if you pay 50% of what we do for about 10% of the population we have that equates to better/cheaper health care?

Riiiiiiight…

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:19 pm 16. deguello:

#1 BIBIO “You lie to me BIBIOT!” said his mother,after catching BIBIO,MOHO, and VIVO sharing a particularly repulsive afternoon snack. You promised never again to eat your friendss’ feces!

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:21 pm 17. Kdell:

well #1 bibio44, they would have had to shout it at Bill AND Hiilary, Ted Kennedy, and many, many others of your beloved liars club of the left, as well.

check the records.

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:25 pm 18. deguello:

#2OWEN no question about it,a masterful job. If Obama could lie half as well as Owen,we’d be waiting years in a drug induced coma,for a hip replacement surgery,courtesy Obama care.you better hope you don’t break a hip,need heart surgery, or get cancer Owen, because in the UK or Canada,YOU’re gonna die!

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:26 pm 19. uncommon sense:

Obama the ONESCUM is a born liar. Jeremiah Wright/Otis Moss 3rd of the Trinity United ” church”=born liars. The communist Frank Marshall Davis=born liar George Soros=born liar. Methinks we need to rename the ENTIRE demon rat party the LIARS CLUB.

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:28 pm 20. Kdell:

to #2 the canadian genius. I’ll take you on, but it is way too easy. look up how Life Expectancy stats are arrived at, they involve much more than health care. OOPS! you goofed. Sorry to deflate your arrogance and know-it-all baloon. And just for fun, why do so many of your country folk come here for the care they cannot get in your beloved socialist wonderland? Just curious.

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:30 pm 21. uncommon sense:

Owen from Canada-one might excuse your ignorant defense of commie “medicine” by Dr Jack Kevorkian. Maybe the fella in Calgary who was told he had to wait 9 months to get an MRI would think your nuts. The same guy who had to go and register as FIDO at a veterenary clinic to get a simple MRI. Or maybe the 55 yo women in Vancouver who DIED in an ambulance OUTSIDE the ER because UNION work rules said only UNION workers were allowed to carry patients into the ER. Seems to me I can place you in the same LIARS CLUB That so many of you leftists seem to occupy.

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:37 pm 22. marnie:

Your all a bunch of racist bigots. Nobody’s perfect. Obama’s trying really hard to help and heal this country. But you homophobic, racist, mysogynist retards just don’t get it. If you give him a chance, a beautiful, golden age will dawn. And we all will prosper and go forth and be fruitful. You are a hatefull company of thieves. May God have pity on your souls.

Sep 15, 2009 - 2:58 pm 23. Poor Citizen:

Obama is responsible for the Black Panthers, hookers, and the NEA?, El Salvador….

Im afraid the only thing credible on the list .. is ETC.

So I’m not even going to offer an opinion.

Sep 15, 2009 - 3:00 pm 24. Roderick Reilly:

“”"” Conclusion: Canadian public health care does a better job for half the money. “”"”"”"

Uh huh. Which explains why Canadians who are really sick and in danger of dying while waiting for treatment for something major often come down to partake of our, what did you call it? “Laughably corrupt” American system?

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:07 pm 25. John:

Two comments:
First, as has been pointed out one must be very careful using averages. Are they calculated exactly the same way (many aren’t) and do they represent a real or fictitious condition? I would submit that an average individual is difficult to find. For example, a person may live a healthy life for 70 plus years requiring no more than routine checkups and possibly a prescription or two. But what happens when a hip or knee fails, or Parkinson’s sets in? Gone from well above average health to likely well below. How does a medical system established for the average cope? I would suggest that this is the case in Canada and the UK. As long as you don’t need too much beyond routine care the system works great. Go beyond the routine and it is not so great; hence waits for MRI’s hip replacements, etc.

Second, to Marnie: if all you have to contribute is a bunch of linked pejoratives for those who disagree, you don’t have a very sound intellectual position and are certainly not contributing to a solution most will find equitable.

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:10 pm 26. malclave:

@22
The true secret of Obamacare… drinking unicorn blood will keep you alive. And Obama’s promises are all about the unicorns.

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:13 pm 27. Sebastian Shaw:

I think Obama’s credibility shatters before October 15th of this year; hence, his hurried rush for all the BIG Socialist Government bills. However, Obama has severely miscalculated WE THE PEOPLE. The masque will shatter when he cannot believe his already overexposed self has no real effect to pass his PUBLIC OPTION Nightmare.

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:26 pm 28. David:

Owen–
1. Life expectancy is NOT longer in Canada if one discounts deaths by violence (murder) or car accidents, etc. Both are higher in the USA, regrettably, but we also have larger and mutiple metropolitan centers.
2. In fact, life expectancy is longer for any variety of cancers–prostate for example–and access to health care better and broader in the USA. If you don’t think so, look at the facts; and ask why so many Candians cross the boarder for care (and no Americans cross the border for Canadian care).

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:45 pm 29. Seneca:

#2 Owen says “Canadian life expectancy is in fact HIGHER with public health care, then the laughably corrupt system the author defends here.” Possibly true but the comparison is “apples to oranges”. When one compares the demographic group from the U.S. comparable to that of Canada the life expectance is virtually the same. Life expectancy for U.S. African-Americans and Hispanics – due to poor life style choices leading to obesity, hypertension, etc – is much lower than that of Americans of European descent. Those two groups constitute less than 4% of the Canadian population.

Sep 15, 2009 - 4:53 pm 30. ked5:

Owen,
I’d love to know what you think 21st (yes, 21st) century health care is. After all, the 20th century is sooo last millenium.

Oh, why does Canada send high risk pregnant women to deliver in the US? (even the lamestream media reports on that . . )

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:02 pm 31. deguello:

#23 Poor Citizen: let’s look at the ETC. shall we? 1.A stimulus plan has stimulated 10% unemployment.2.Dishonest incoherent efforts to impose mengele care on a resistant population leading to a resurgence of the republican party.3.Persecution of our intelligence operatives,which will lead,ultimately,to another 9/11 style attack(mercifully, in a Blue city).4 The attempted creation of a surveillance website to identify and target dissidents.5.Death panels(let’s get rid of those old, white, conservative people who won’t vote for me while using their taxes to care forignorant,indigent illegals,who will,through 6.Legalization of welfare-dependent illegal aliens(democrat voters)Finally,trying to pass his hideous,burtt-faced wife as a great beauty7. Weakening of our ABM defenses as a psychotic Iran develops a nuclearstrike capability.? Credible enough? See you at the revolution!

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:14 pm 32. Frank Logan:

There are two kinds of liberals. Power seekers, who sell their country down the river for their own short term gains of power, and Dupes, who believe the lies the power seekers feed them repeatedly. I sense NO power seekers on this thread

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:14 pm 33. deguello:

#12RIGHT AS WELL S CORRECT 6 Months! I’m afraid, that will be too late for Owen.By then his “problem” will have reached the tertiary stage and it will be too late to…wait a minute, that’s a good thing!

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:27 pm 34. ked5:

Oh, I should add it is the CANADIAN medical system sending the pregnant women to deliver in the US. This is women from CITIES, not rural, so why aren’t the facilities in the “oh so efficient system” available for them?

Unlike those with other serious health issues who come on their own as they can get treatment before it’s too late . . . UK had studies out stating they needed to get TIA patients in for follow up within six weeks (they were doing six months, and people were DYING while they waited for follow-up care. ‘course, it does get rid of those who are sickly.) In the US, it’s about three weeks at most.

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:27 pm 35. deguello:

#22 MARNIE: You are a case in point of what happens when you wait too long to get a case of rabies treated.What happened are you Canadian? Or was your Rottweiler infected when you copulated with it,and you didn’t notice because you were on crack at the time?

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:31 pm 36. Timothy O'Connor:

Can it really be that someone else is suggesting the importance of Wallace Stevens to today’s right-of-center dialogue? It’s Roger Kimball, of course!

Stevens argued that our artistic commitments must always be to the present, and not to some imagined future. The latter kind of artist he perceived as a sort of an obstacle to what he called “reality,” splitting off into a variety of cheapened rhetorics and modes. He’d undoubtedly have found the poetry and art our times to be oppressively “secondary.”

But also please read his essay “Insurance and Social Change” where Stevens described the gamut of the world’s insurance industries, from totalitarian systems to a variety of socialistic models, and concluded by expressing the utmost faith in the adaptability of the American insurance industry.

In the end, he wrote, “it is all a question of remaining solvent, a question of making a reasonable profit … Even if the point is considered from the view of nationalization of the business, it is not to be supposed that any government can maintain an entire population indefinitely at a loss.”

Sep 15, 2009 - 7:31 pm 37. John Becker:

Obama, try sitting still at your desk. Carter, what JFK said about Nixon: sick, sick, sick…

Sep 15, 2009 - 8:45 pm 38. Inrptrn:

Anyone else taking note of how often Obama relies on exploiting the impulsive nature of the duped? Current US healthcare is a burning building that we must put out now with my theif in the night healthcare! That really sends the frenzied masses into a tizzy, much like a child foaming at the mouth for his new toy. He used the same tactic with the porkulous. Understanding and exploiting the psycology of the duped is a game Obama plays to the maximum.

Sep 15, 2009 - 11:29 pm 39. Myno:

I wonder what mountain of evidence will have to pile up before we finally witness the disillusionment of the African American voter from Obama’s lies. If they do eventually wake up, what retributive price they will exact from those who duped them? Or will they line up to swallow the KoolAid and keep silent about their mass psychosis?

Sep 16, 2009 - 2:43 am 40. always right:

Owen,

I’d like to hear your response to Brian @#7.

Sep 16, 2009 - 5:04 am 41. Brian Richard Allen:

Shikha Dalmia suggests that if the congress was guided by truth-in-labeling laws, it would be required to call this bill TonySopranoCare.

Just as well, I reckon, that Mr Soprano’s a fictional character.

Or either his consigliere or his made men — or both — would be after Ms Dalmia — for libel!

The Mafia, after all, has individual accountability — and accountability inspires moral integrity.

Sep 16, 2009 - 5:26 am 42. Gary Ogletree:

I lived in BC for 23 years. The Canadian medical plans in no way resemble the totalitarian agenda presented in Obamacare. I got a huge tax cut when I returned to the States in ‘99 because BC Med’s low premiums are made up for by the taxman. An honest reform of health insurance would be to give competition across state lines and tort reform a chance. Overbilling by hospitals should also be curtailed, as a hospital bed shouldn’t cost $10,000 a day. Otherwise where will Canadians go when they can’t book a room in the maternity ward or need scare high tech treatments?

Sep 16, 2009 - 5:52 am 43. Paul -Indiana:

Believing what Obama says takes a willful suspension of disbelief.

Sep 16, 2009 - 6:14 am 44. George S.:

like the fable “the emoperor’s new clothes” Joe Wilson called out the truth that every one could see but could not challenge. Thank you Joe, I do agree that it may not have been in the “right taste” but need to be done.

Below is a link to an artical I think it is worth reading….previously I thought obama was just a marxist but now I see that he is a retard …well mentally sick anyways.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

it goes a long way explaining the path of obama. lies are just a part of him. Victor how can you square the circle when dealing with a narcissist ?

Sep 16, 2009 - 7:01 am 45. paul_unalaska:

For Owen –

Dr. Anne Doig, the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association, said, “We know there must be change. We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands. We all agree the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize.” she said.

Canada’s universal health care system is not giving patients optimal care, Doig added.

The only positive spin I can say about Dr. Doig’s comments is she’s honest about Canada’s system. Too bad you’re not or haven’t come to terms with reality.

Sep 16, 2009 - 7:53 am 46. Michael:

I think everyone is missing the “tongue in check” content in marnie’s post. It is obviously satire as no one that can write a coherent sentence could actually believe that as written.

Good one Marnie.

Sep 16, 2009 - 8:23 am 47. Scott:

@ #46

You haven’t read too many of the trolls comments around here have you? Not saying you’re incorrect about he satire thing but responses like that are pretty common from the Libtard trolls so it’s hard to distinguish from the real article.

Sep 16, 2009 - 9:50 am 48. Dale:

Roger Kimball writes:““You lie!” said Rep. Joe Wilson the other day as President Obama was addressing Congress about his plans to empower the government to annex health care. Wilson’s comment enriched his coffers but drew tuts from Republicans and tut-tuts from Democrats: whatever happened to civil discourse in American Politics? asked the people who brought you BushHitler and kindred examples of politesse.”

Roger, if you cannot discern the difference between private citizens protesting and an elected official calling a sitting president a liar in the middle of a nationally televised speech on the House floor, then I advise you to pack up that silly bow tie of yours and get lost. We already have enough partisan hacks. What we need are thoughtful statesman who put country above party.

And you clearly do not fit the bill.

Sep 16, 2009 - 10:39 am 49. tanstaafl:

Watching Obama speak and perform, this makes (some) sense to me while little else is making any sense at all.

But Obama chose another path, the one that allowed him to save face; he made the personal political.

His father didn’t choose to desert him; racism was at fault. His mother didn’t abandon him; the system was to blame. Obama’s grandparents didn’t corrupt him by giving a creepy guy like Davis personal access to him; they were acting like “typical white [people]“.

Making the personal political

Sep 16, 2009 - 11:06 am 50. tanstaafl:

Delusions of grandeur and baldfaced mis-representations in Obama’s speech yesterday to the AFL-CIO, the crowd pleased as punch (like the Black Panthers) that they’ve got friends in high places…

Obama on his Porkulus:

Because of the Recovery Act, we’re keeping a campaign promise I made by giving 95% of working Americans a tax cut — a tax cut that will benefit nearly 5 million families in Pennsylvania…And we are putting Americans to work across this country rebuilding our crumbling roads, bridges, and waterways with the largest investment in our infrastructure since Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s. All in all, many middle class families will see their incomes go up by about $3,000 because of the Recovery Act, helping them get back much of what they may have lost due to this recession.

A Delusional President?

Sep 16, 2009 - 11:19 am 51. Sapwolf:

It will be interesting if Glenn Beck calls him on his lies or smiles when Obama begins a statement with “Let me set the record straight…”.

Beck is gonna have a monumental need to keep a straight face and stop from laughing hysterically as Obama lies to America on his show.

Monday, 5:00pm EDT

If the rumor is true, this is infinitely MUST-SEE-TV.

Sep 16, 2009 - 12:46 pm 52. JMD:

Owen misses the point of this article. The fact is that even if a government-run single payer system can be better and more efficient (and I’m not saying it can), we, the poeple of the United States of America, don’t trust those in Washington to do it properly. They haven’t done medicare or medicaid right. Those are failing programs. Why should we trust them with more health care responsibility?

We shouldn’t trust them, and we don’t.

Sep 16, 2009 - 1:29 pm 53. David W. Lincoln:

The relationship between the Tao and the Mandate of Heaven shows Agent Zero, and his armies of zombies, to be out of bounds.

They have the same amount of credibility as Adolf Hitler, if he were to show up at a pro-life conference.

Sep 16, 2009 - 2:07 pm 54. Banned by Huffpo:

Canadian and British health care:

Doctor: “The bad news is, you need your heart bypassed.”

Patient: “Oh no!”

Doctor: “The good news is, we can do it . . . in a year or so.”

Patient: “Oh goodie!”

Doctor: “The bad news is, you’ll probably be dead from a massive coronary in a month. Here’s a bottle of aspirin. Good luck.”

Patient: “I’m going to New York! Bye!”

Sep 16, 2009 - 6:06 pm 55. Jeffrey:

There are consequences for liars: The Lake that burns with fire and it’s permanent.

Sep 16, 2009 - 8:29 pm 56. Kevin:

@Owen:

Canada’s health care costs who half as much? I used to be married to a Canadian woman who continually bragged about her “free” health care. I tried to convince her that her free health care was actually paid for by the outrageous taxes she paid*, and even went as far as to suggest that, if she were to stop paying her taxes, her health care would go away, too. She laughed.

*Before we were married, when she was still living in Calgary and I in New York, we made about the same face-value salary, but she paid more than half of hers to Revenue Canada (except one year when she got a big year-end bonus: they took half of that before she saw it, and half of what was left the next year at tax time, for a whopping 75%); I paid about 28% of mine to the IRS.

After we were married, and she’d been living in New York for some time, we flew up to AB to visit her family. While we were there, she took sick and called the doctor she’d been seeing in Calgary for many years: the receptionist told her she was not eligible for Health Canada any more, and suggested she check with Revenue Canada to make sure her taxes were up-to-date…

I wont bother with your second point, as that’s already been adequately addressed by other commenters.

Conclusion: Your points are non-starters. Thanks for sharing.

Sep 16, 2009 - 10:50 pm 57. misanthopicus:

Dear mister Kimball,
I am a bit taken aback by your assertion that credibility is getting in short suply with mister Obama in the White House.
Mister Obama’s latest political decision, i.e. the cancelling of the missiles shield over Eastern Europe seems for me a decision that cannot but enhance his (and this country’s) credibility & seriousness in international affairs – and please do not discount here the credibility enhancement for mister Obama’s thoughtfullness, since apparently this move has been for long, long analysed by him, in his magnificent & vastly quoted and referred to Columbia U graduation double thesis.

Yet here I have a problem you may be able to help me to decipher: in which of those important papers mister Obama did address/ anticipated this missiles shieled over Europe matter? Was it in the thesis:
1) “North-South Post-Colonial Relationships”,
2) “USA-Soviet Nuclear Disarmament Issues”,
3) Both of them,
4) A third one, destroyed by that notorious liar, congressman Joe Wilson;
5) “You are a racist!” – current paper published by mister Carter,
6) I Won, And Now Get Lost -

In case you have a better insight in this matter, insight which would further add to mister Obama’s towering credibility, please don’t hesitate to advise.
Confused in Los Angeles -

Sep 17, 2009 - 9:52 am 58. Ken O'Banion:

“Health care” is one of those politician/media-generated terms that has long since had all substantive meaning Hoovered out of it. So let’s start calling this debate what it really is: an argument over who’s going to pay the hospital bills. Traditionally, the answer to that question has been “anybody but me” — as if it were the ultimate in crassness and insensitivity even to suggest that the person who receives a medical treatment should be the one expected to pay for that procedure.

At least, with the evolution of the debate from “health care” to “health insurance”, we are finally edging closer to being willing — however reluctantly — to acknowledge that fact.

Oh, and by the way, Owen: life-expectancy figures are a questionable criterion for comparing the medical-care systems of various countries, since there are many other factors in determining life expectancy (violent crime rates, to offer one example), not all of which can be directly correlated to “health care”. If you want to compare the efficacy of a country’s “health care” system, look at the survival rates for various diseases: cancer, heart disease, diabetes, even AIDS; i.e., areas in which the quality and delivery efficiency of medical treatment has a direct bearing. You’ll find that the United States is right near the top.

Sep 17, 2009 - 10:00 am 59. jodetoad:

#58 is exactly right, the money is the focus (although the end result of the bills will probably be inferior health care, because of mass resignation by physicians as well as general govt. incompetence).

We are actually discussing whether we should all pay in $ and in reduced care for a minority of people not to suffer financial impact. Some very important corollaries are being ignored: the incredible financial challenges to hospitals to provide free care to illegal immigrants, the coming inability of govt. programs such as Medicare to keep their promises, tort reform, the constitutionality of the proposals, etc.

Going bankrupt is not fun, but it was designed for financial disasters. I know two pertinent things: as I age, I am increasingly likely to need health care; and that life is not fair and can’t be made otherwise by laws. Thus, I pay for health insurance, sometimes pay for services the insurance does not cover, and don’t expect anybody else to pay if a disastrously expensive health disaster befalls me.

The whole premise of the thing is deceptive, to say the least.

Sep 17, 2009 - 11:40 am 60. deguello:

#32 FRANK LOGAN:There is a third kind:Tertiary syphilitics;many libtards i nthe 60’s,caught it,and being too drug adled,or thinking that they had reached a higher stage of consciousness, never treated it. These unfortunates now troll,vote for obama,run hollywood,and destroy the banking system.

Sep 17, 2009 - 6:41 pm

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