52 Comments

1. Jeff B.:

And yet…there will be no justice in this case.

I have the depressing sense that this will go down as another “Bush Sr. flummoxed by supermarket checkout”/”Al Gore claims to invent internet” urban legend that will be believed by many many more than disbelieve it.

And I have the sinking feeling that this is exactly how Josh Marshall and Joe Wilson wanted it to be. I’ve since reconsidered my admonitions to DennisThePeasant about rhetoric in an earlier thread, and I now think that Marshall is about as disgusting and dishonest as Wilson is. Wilson is caught, compromised, trapped – he can’t disown his statements without committing a form of public psychological suicide. But Marshall is continuing to defend this not because he believes it, but rather because he believes in nothing except harming the opposition, truth be damned.

I’m trying to find an alternate interpretation. I’d be open to one were someone to offer it.

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:27 am 2. Mark Poling:

“Joe Wilson Lied, Western Capitals May Fry”

Don’t think that phrase will show up on many ANSWER posters.

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:31 am 3. TR Farmer:

Did you notice that something finally appeared in the LA Times about this today. On Page 6.

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:35 am 4. Raging_Toroid:

Not meaning to nitpick Roger, but I believe what was at issue was “yellowcake” uranium, which is unenriched and not weapons grade. This is, of course, not innocent since the only reason you buy unenriched uranium is so that you can enrich it for use either in either weapons or a reactor. However, just for clarity’s sake, you should not give the impression that Saddam was trying to buy weapon’s grade uranium from Niger(or any where else in Africa).(Although he certainly would have bought some if they’d had any for sale)

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:39 am 5. Fresh Air:

The NRO notes that Joe Wilson hasn’t been on television since July 2!

The VRWC has all but concluded he has been abducted and is being held against his will in a TV studio dressing room. It is rumored Wilson no longer has access to either pancake makeup or his personal coiffuress. Mon dieu!

It is suspected he cannot even watch videos of his appearances on the closed-circuit monitors. He is sustaining himself with a hand-held mirror.

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:43 am 6. paulhager2004:

One minor quibble. While I agree that the homicidal dictator wanted weapons grade U-235, what was being sought in Africa was yellowcake: natural uranium which is aproximately 99.3% U-238 and 0.7% U-235. A weapon requires uranium that is at least 20% U-235 — practically speaking we’re talking about an enrichment in the high 90% range in order to build a “device”.

I agree that the whole Wilson-Plame farrago shows there were reasons for skepticism and that most of the established media failed in their responsibility to be “fair and balanced”. But, the uranium story needs to be put into perspective. It is so difficult to enrich uranium to weapons grade that having natural uranium or trying to acquire it is of very, very minor import. Of much greater concern would be things like VX precursors or (shudder) VX itself. There’s still 1000 tons of VX unaccounted for, if Blix was to be believed — and we all know that Blix is a paragon of honesty.

Our legitimate concerns about Iran’s weapons program are not centered around the fact that the Iranians have uranium, rather the fact that the Iranians are building hardened facilities for centrifuge enrichment.

Regards,

paul hager (candidate, Indiana House of Reps)

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:04 am 7. David [.net]:

What will look worse: if Kerry takes down his Joe Wilson restorehonesty.com site, or leaves it up?

http://www.johnkerry.com/honesty/

This affair is how Kerry/Edwards chose to define honesty.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:05 am 8. TR Farmer:

Though Wilson is not appearing on TV, he apparently talked with Doyle McManus of LA Times for the article that McManus wrote today. That is the first new information I have heard from him in any article I have seen since things went south on him last week.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:12 am 9. Old Dad:

Ya know Roger, the despicable Mr. Wilson is the perfect representative of the Kerry Democrats–an elitist partisan liar with total disregard for national security.

Senator Kerry, the one who served in Viet Nam but who is currently too busy to be briefed on national security, is not a serious man, for a serious man would have already denounced this nauseating hack for what he is–a liar and a traitor. The same goes for Michael Moore.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:15 am 10. John Davies:

paul hager-

Yes, it’s true that converting yellowcake to weapons grade is hard. But converting sand or oil to weapons grade is even harder.

So he would be greatly simplifying the task of creating weapons grad uranium by acquiring yellowcake.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:33 am 11. furious:

Roger:

Remember Lyin’ Joe Wilson IV fantasizing to…Russert?..Vanity Fair?..about who would play him in the movie?

I think we have an answer — Jon Lovitz (“Yeah, sweet mint tea, that’s the ticket!“).

Considering the taxpayers paid the expenses for his Niger trip, and considering the trip involved our national security, it’s high time Mr. Wilson got a subpoena to testify before Rep. Goss’ or Sen. Roberts’ Intelligence Committees…or both.

Getting this cheap political hack on the record citing over-and-over again his inability to recall and his Fifth Amendment rights would prove a restorative tonic…and also give Fox News some amusing footage over which their anchors and show hosts could gloat.

–furious.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:53 am 12. Jared:

It’s also worth noting that Iraq had, in the recent past, expended countless millions of dollars researching and building facilities and equipment utilizing both gas centrifuge and EMIS (ElcectroMagnetic Isotope Separation) technologies to convert U238 to fissile U235.

While the known facilities were dismantled from 1991 – 2002, much of the equipment was likely hidden away for later exploitation. The calutrons that make up the heart of an EMIS system are easily moved in the design that Iraq was known to have studied (as detailed by physicist Andre Gsponer). Similarly, the individual modules that make up a gas centrifuge system are easily dismantled and hidden in a country as large as Iraq.

Lastly, Hussein had a cadre of over 1,000 nuclear scientists who he retained – long after he had supposedly dismantled both his EMIS and gas centrifuge uranium enrichment programs.

That Hussein wanted yellowcake makes perfect sense, in light of his previous actions.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:57 am 13. so it begins:

Maybe I’m missing something, but the GWB people have not jumped on the fact the Honesty page over at the Kerry website is all about Joe Wilson. They have been very quick this election year to get these things out… perhaps they are creating the ad as we speak. Oh, that would be very, very detrimental to both the Kerry Campaign and Joe Wilson.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:58 am 14. Charlie (Colorado):

Jared, a quibble: You mean “separating the U238 from the U235″.

Jul 15, 2004 - 11:05 am 15. Jared:

Yup. Bein’ lazy earlier. Separating the U235 from the U238 – hence the ElectroMagnetic Isotope Separation. Apologies for slacking.

Jul 15, 2004 - 11:14 am 16. Knucklehead:

Paul Hager,

I understand your point, but it isn’t like Saddam was trying to buy “yellowcake” to use as ballast for his yacht.

He clearly had some idea that he could get the enrichment technology or that he could subcontract the enrichment or, maybe, that the yellowcake he was trying to buy could be bartered for something else. Its not like picking up a bag of flour at the store even though you aren’t sure the last bag is used.

Nice to have a real life candidate joining comments. I won’t tell you what my daughter had to say about politicians the other night. I have no idea what provoked the outburst, but it wasn’t pretty. Probably something to do with that feeling the young get everytime they get one of those rare paychecks that the gubmint siphoned so lustily

Jul 15, 2004 - 11:25 am 17. clarice:

The LAT takes a week to notice that the 9/11 Commission found Wilson lied, buried its story and gives the lion’s share of it to Wilson’s defense and the remarks supportive of him from an unnamed intelligence source. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/complete/la-fg-uranium15jul15,1,4698277.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Surely, it’s time for LA to have a real paper.(Note to people thinking about it–just snag their sports writers.)

Jul 15, 2004 - 11:44 am 18. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Given what we know about the centrifuge factory in Malaysis as part of the Khan network, and the general amount of trade in nuclear technology, Saddam could have enriched that uranium any number of ways. For example, he might have paid Libya, or North Korea (although they have their own uranium mines, as did Saddam, I believe, in the Kurdish region where he couldn’t get at them).

In any case, it’s becoming a tired refrain on these pages, but the MSM has once again dropped the ball. They are nothing but a propaganda machine against Bush, pure and simple. Obviously they have no shame.

As far as I can tell, the worst offenders are NYT, LAT and CBS.

This is another reason that McCain-Feingold was wrong. It increases the power of the media relative to citizens. I am helping a 527,Vietnam Vets for the Truth seeking to answer Kerry’s charges painting the US and Vietnam vets through charges of routine atrocities and racism in Vietnam [hint: donations BADLY needed], and we suffer various restrictions including maximum funding limits.

I think the right way to do campaign finance reform is the Virginia way: require any donation and its source to be posted on the internet right away, but have no limits. That way, the voters can find out who is paying what to whom, and the suppression of free speech completely disappears.

Jul 15, 2004 - 12:02 pm 19. PeterArgus:

Jeff B’s right on target. I find it increasingly difficult to read any article in the MSM (particularly NYT since I subscribe) without constantly parsing each article for the underlying motive. Supposed questions about Cheney being placed on the front page today – the story appears entirely based on rumor, is it merely an attempt to keep alive the appearance that the Bush campaign is in turmoil and is on the defensive? Article yesterday about the adminstration’s effort to battle AIDS in Africa – takes constant stabs at perceived unilateralist bullying approach, although conceding after every few paragraphs that actually the program is working. I can’t help thinking that the MSM has reached a point either collectively or individually that ALL news will be spun in Kerry’s direction and ANY news that complicates this message must be ignored. I continue to subscribe to NYT because it does give the most comprehensive world and local news but man it is getting hard…

Jul 15, 2004 - 12:08 pm 20. sammy small:

IIRC Wilson’s credibility at the time of the story after the SOTU speech was boosted by the Bush administration back-pedaling on the yellowcake issue and the 16 words. I’m amazed that they were so unsure on the issue that they caved so easily.

In hindsight, they should have held their ground until further investigating shed more light on the subject. Of course, the way it has panned out anyway has resulted in the lefties stomping all over their schwantzes.

Jul 15, 2004 - 12:24 pm 21. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Sammy Small

Don’t forget that in the middle of the yellowcake nonsense was a forgery – a red herring that helped convince many that the niger uranium story was false (although Bush shouldn’t have conceded, because he never even said Africa – maybe they did it just to shut down the subject).

PeterArgus and others

The latest American Spectator rips Seymour Hersh to shreds. It is not a pleasant story. It covers fraud, susceptibility to con men, and numerous other journalistic sins. It should be available at news stands for those who don’t subscribe.

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:00 pm 22. thedragonflies:

This story certainly shows the low integrity of Wilson, the propaganda arm of the Democratic Party otherwise known as the mainstream media, and Kerry.

But, what I want to know is what happened to the Niger yellowcake? Did Iraq get any? If so, where did it go? And for what purpose. Did other countries get some? Which? Why? Who are the main brokers and middle men of yellow cake around the world?

Politics in an election year is important, but if U.S. cities start disappearing under nuclear clouds, a lot of people are going to want to know why the media didn’t ask the important questions rather than the political race in 2004 questions.

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:11 pm 23. Old Dad:

Peter Argus

I understand your reluctance to drop the Times. I scan it online every day, but would never subscribe.

As I asked my kids the first time I caught them lying, “How can I ever trust you?” You know the routine.

Well the Times is unrepentant, and I don’ have the time to fact check them–the internet does a wonderful job of that.

All

The Wilson fiasco, I think, points to a serious problem in our national political debate. Set aside our huge problem with intel, we still must act responsibly based on the information we have. When the President of the United States asserts that a known terrorist state has sought uranium, I take that very seriously. My first thought is not to get caught up in a game of political gotcha. Rather, I’d like to know what in the hell we’re going to do about the threat, including verifying whether or not the threat is real. If my kid tells me that he has a sharp pain in his middle right abdomen, I take him to the doctor to rule out appendicitis. If it turns out to be gas, I don’t question his motives.

Are we becoming a nation of perpetual adolescents? Present company, excluded of course!

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:21 pm 24. TmjUtah:

I don’t think there’s any profit in Bush & Co. going to any great lengths to attempt to fight the PR war via media.

Seems to me that the administration has decided to stay off a battlefield rigged for the competition. Expecting the MSM to objectively cover the White House side of an argument might reasonably be equated with a federal prosecutor submitting his closing arguments to the mafioso lawyers for editing.

Instead, the administration keeps its statements direct and limited to specific matters of policy, and usually via speeches or appearances in friendly(er?) venues than briefings.

The razor is results. I’m still waiting for the campaign coverage to reference back to the issues of 2000 for analysis on what was said and what has been done. I still maintain that Bush has come a lot closer to delivering on his published goals than either Clinton or the elder Bush did.

Somehow I think I will have to wait for that to happen until….well, I’ll just heavily saddlesoap my ice skates. Even on ice Hell will be tough on leather.

Do not belittle the effect of blogs on public opinion. I believe that the demographic that follows the blogosphere bears little relation to the targetted consumers of print or TV journalism. The existence of blogs has at the very least forced MSM to think twice before they package up their agenda. The Wilson debacle won’t have the legs it deserves, of course, UNLESS it becomes the straw that breaks the coda vendetta that ties the big MSM together. There’s no law that another FOX-like media organ will arise; the market is just to lucrative to ignore. The installation of Okrent as Chief Apologist Without Actually Apologizing at the NY Times is a direct result of bloggers working the street where the editorial board so clearly did not.

I always look beyond the headline and the lede in a blog…and usually beyond the articles referenced to the links and source documents, as well. Why? Because I CAN. Greater access to information means better analysis, and should mean better solutions. The trap that MSM has built for itself is a classic of unintended consequences. They assume that their clientelle shares their ideology and agenda and tailor their product accordingly. They deliver what they think their market wants to hear…then turn right around and place principle of objectivity on a plinth and dare anyone to question their status of arbiters of the truth. They were quite comfortable managing the debate, because they managed what information arrived on the table.

It was so much easier to conduct journalism when source documents lived in snug fiche files buried in a basement or behind a healthy subscription fee to a professional journal. Facts are such troubling things.

Most articles printed for public consumption are aimed at what, a fifth grade reading level? They expect readers to scan the headline and buy it. I propose that nobody here fits that target audience. On an aside, it appears that most political ads on TV or radio are aimed at the Jerry Springer audience, regardless of party. What does that say about the perception of the voting public held by media, political, and advertising professionals?

The real political debate happening in this country is happening right here, boys and girls. Politics is ultimately dependent on the self-interest of the electorate…and I for one am sick and tired of having to choose between agendas for the one that might do me less harm.

I think that the administration has bet on results trumping spin. They stand up in a press conference and state that 80% of Iraq is self-governing at the local level and that fact is certain to poop out the back end of the Reuter’s donkey as “Administration Claims Progress, Ignores Security Failures”. Where is the profit in calling ANOTHER conference to restate a simple fact that is available to anyone with a web connection? It would be just another opportunity for Reuters or Krugman or Scheer to write ANOTHER story spinning “Administration Desperately Seeking Silver Linings”. I applaud them for going against the grain of the entire political chattering class by not playing the game. I opined three years ago that the MSM would be frustrated by the lack of Hollywood production values in a Bush administration; the reality has surpassed my wildest expectations. We’ll all know whether or not it worked come November.

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:41 pm 25. TmjUtah:

Oops. Correction to above -

“There’s no law that another FOX-like media organ (EVEN IN PRINT MEDIA) will NOT arise; the market is just TOO lucrative to ignore.”

Preview is my friend.

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:46 pm 26. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I think Iraq already had a lot of yellowcake. Presumably the purpose for this enterprise (which apparently never came to completion) was to get yellowcake that was off the books.

The interesting question isn’t so much where the yellow cake went, but where the enrichment facilities are. One set of middle eastern enrichment facililties was recently transported from Libya to the US. Another is buried under the sand in Iran. Saddam’s calutron facilities were pretty well destroyed, I believe, but calutrons are old and clunky anyway compared to centrifuges. Beyond that, there are potentially much more efficient systems which might allow a facility to be easily hidden. I don’t know how good laser enrighment is, but Israel is believed to have used it. With some of today’s technologies – superconductors, superlasers, nanotech material processing, etc – it might become easy to do isotopic separation. It is also possible that super-explosives are possible using nuclear forces but not uranium (nuclear isomers, for example). Let’s hope none of this stuff gets easy.

Jul 15, 2004 - 1:59 pm 27. DennisThePeasant:

I really wish one of our Lefty Dimwits would show up and try to explain why Wilson is really right, didn’t lie, etc.,…

I spent the morning defending [shudder] Teresa Heinz Kerry. I have tension that needs to be worked off.

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:01 pm 28. Knucklehead:

Tmj,

Thanks for bucking me up! Good post. While I wait patiently to find out if the MSM is as powerful as they belive they are or if the American public is a stupid as the MSM thinks it is, I just keep recommending to people I speak with that they really should start looking at blogs and then recommend a few that will get them started. The best hope lies with new blog readers. Anyone have any data on how fast blog readership is growing vs. MSM readership/viewership?

I have no idea if it will have any impact, but I have to try something.

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:12 pm 29. Knucklehead:

DtP,

Find some attack against Condi and defend her. She may be the most effective tool the administration has. My wife and daughters are not geo-political whackojunkies like I am and then tend to waver in the direction of what the MSM puts up, but every time they see Condi they always walk away shaking their heads and saying stuff like, “She’s GOOD!” or “She ROCKS!” or “She just kicked some serious butt!”

I love it ’cause I agree. I’m waiting for Rudi-Condi (or Condi-Rudi) ticket in ‘08 (since ‘04 is in the bag – got that from Samuel, he knows)

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:16 pm 30. RogerA:

Re DTPs posts–I do enjoy seeing a person place principle over partisanship–well done Dennis; as for the lack of LW trolls–things have been strangely quiet here. Perhaps they even have a sense of shame? Nahhhh–that wouldnt be it

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:24 pm 31. Jared:

John,

Excellent points, all. What made Iraq’s calutron program scary, of course, was how easily they were able to hide its development – especially given its size.

Interestingly enough, Gsponer’s paper Iraq’s Calutrons – EMIS, Beam Technology, and Nuclear Weapon Proliferation has a short bit on the frightening potential of advances in beam technology (particle accelerators, etc.) to be put to work by regimes like Hussein’s. This info begins on page 35.

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:52 pm 32. megapotamus:

The dearth of Leftoid commentators today is not restricted to Roger’s world. I’ve noticed it at a few other contested beach-heads, not least of which is Josh Marshall… yeah he’s talkin’ but ain’t sayin’ much. This is a foretaste of Nov. 3rd. Crickets will chirp and chirp across cyberspace. I for one, intend to gloat heartily. It’s not really in my nature but anyone who voted for Dole knows we owe them one, Big Time. On the major MSM dissection going on so ably; once I was outraged, now I am amused. Think how infurtiating it is to see falsehood after falsehood demolished, especially when you were trusting the Big Boys on the Big Issues. The MSM will reap the whirlwind for this one for a long, long time. In fifteen years there won’t BE an identifiable MSM and I say good riddance. I may be re-hashing but finally there is an answer to those who say, “Never take on anyone who buys ink by the barrel.” The modern rejoinder… “What’s ‘ink’?”

Jul 15, 2004 - 2:58 pm 33. chuck:

The absence of the opposition is interesting. I noticed that a lot of these folks showed up almost all at once on Buzzmachine and Michael Totten’s site. The thought of a planned invasion crossed my mind. Any other paranoid conspiracy theorists out there have thoughts?

Jul 15, 2004 - 3:46 pm 34. wxjames:

Here’s a depressing one, the MSM make tons of money on campaing ads. And both sides contribute by the carload. Too bad that those jackles who manufacture lies against Bush are the very networks that profit from his campaing. If only there were another way.

Jul 15, 2004 - 3:53 pm 35. wxjames:

Campaign, campaign, campaign.

Jul 15, 2004 - 3:55 pm 36. Katherine:

I never bought into the story that there were no WMD, or no intent to vigorously pursue their development. As Hitchens once remarked, it is a bit difficult to imagine that Saddam, after kicking out the inspectors sat down, relaxed and said: Now that the inspectors are gone I will disarm.

Michel Ledeen describes incidents where CIA was informed about potential weapon sites, but refused to look.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200402020833.asp

It may be of some interest to find out what why CIA was not interested in following the leads; personally, the only thing I really want to know is location of the nasty stuff before it will become too obvious to everybody i.e. before it will be used on us.

That is why I simply cannot wrap my brain around the mentality of ABB Democrats and the MSM. Do they truly, really believe that we are in no danger? That Saddam was not a threat (presumably gassing his own people was A-OK)? That we can hand a subpoena to bin Laden (if he is alive)? That terrorists, before they will strike will be checking voters registration card? (The last one was already proven to be of no concern to Osama and his buddies).

I swear, sometimes I feel that human species must have had more than one common ancestor and parts of humanity sit on different branches of the evolutionary treeÖ.

Jul 15, 2004 - 3:55 pm 37. Bostonian:

“The existence of blogs has at the very least forced MSM to think twice before they package up their agenda. ”

I would love to believe this, but I don’t. The NYT & the LAT, at any rate, show no sign whatsoever of returning to honesty.

I’ve been considering writing letters to the NYT’s major advertisers explaining why I will not spend a penny on that paper.

Jul 15, 2004 - 4:04 pm 38. PeterUK:

Dennis the peasant.

It is well documented that Former Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf went to Niger purely to select goats for Former President Saddam Hussen,Niger,s goats are reputed to be the fairest in all Africa and Saddams predilection for a pretty goat is common knowledge in the Middle East, anyone with the merest grasp of international affairs should know this.Obviously not here.

It is irrefutable that goats thrive on yellowcake and therefore perfectly legitimate for a large quantity of yellowcake be shipped to Iraq to make the goats feel at home.That is the substance of the matter and the foully traduced Joseph Wilson is correct because the goats naturally consumed all the yellowcake on the journey, the yellowcake was for the goats,not Saddam. Don’t you people know anything?

Jul 15, 2004 - 4:25 pm 39. Knucklehead:

Let’s not forget that the “loyal opposition” has a convention rapidly approaching and miles to go before they sleep. They undoubtedly have bigger fish to fry for the next few weeks.

It will be interesting to watch how the Dems handle their more, ummm… what’s the word I’m looking for… colorful – that’s it! – crowd at the convention. Does anyone suppose the MSM will show them in their full-throated form?

Jul 15, 2004 - 4:29 pm 40. Silicon valley Jim:

Roger,

Thank you for setting an example of how a professional journalist acknowledges and corrects mistakes. Would that publications like the NYT, LAT, etc., were as committed to the truth as you are.

Jul 15, 2004 - 4:54 pm 41. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Jared

Thanks for the link. I had not read it, but there is another publication by the same authors which I have purchased and read:

Fourth Generation Nuclear Weapons

The Physical Principles Of Thermonuclear Explosives, Inertial Confinement Fusion, And The Quest For Fourth Generation Nuclear Weapons.

This book is fascinating, and suggests a number of ways that future weapons may be made (and congress recently removed the ban stopping research of these). If you are interested, I recommend buying the book (you have to buy it direct from IANUS). It has the possibility of odd weapons such as a normal caliber bullet that will, upon impact, release energy equal to several tons of TNT (nuclear “isomer” – the only test I have heard of didn’t do much).

Katherine

I think the ABB’s really don’t grasp the reality of the danger. They are so obsessed with ABB that the rest of the world doesn’t exist – unless somethiing happens that is bad for Bush.

Not finding WMD stocks in Iraq unfortunately damaged their ability to accept common sense future projections. But it’s not like we haven’t had recent warnings. Anyone who fails to understand the imminent danger represented by the find of Sarin gas shells (and Al Qaeda offering $5000 apiece for them on the market) is simply clueless. Specifically, those binary weapons could have their relatiely stable component chemicals removed (probably by drilling into them). Those chemicals (relatively harmless) could be easily transported into our country. The components could be mixed in something like a bug sprayer, producing a gallon of Sarin, and sprayed into the air handler of a large modern (no windows that open) office building. The result would probably kill every person in the building. This is with ONE of those shells that we have found 30 or so of.

Nuclear weapons are far scarier, but unless North Korea has sold one to the terrorists, or they got one or more from Russian stocks, they are unlikely.

Bostonian

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The MSM is stick in a world where they rule. They have power, and they have been corrupted by it. They don’t care about blogs, because compared to the MSM numbers, we are tiny.

PeterUK

Heh! ROFL.

Roger

You and Glenn sounded great on HH.

Jul 15, 2004 - 5:37 pm 42. Ben:

The MSM has demonstrated nothing so clearly as the fact that they are pack animals. Don’t look for any corrections on the Wilson/Plame story unless the heard starts heading in that direction. Personally, I expect to be dodging a lot of pig s**t dropping from the sky as porky and his friends fly past before the MSM acknowledges that one of its favored narratives just might be wrong.

The lack of integrity on the part of the Fourth Estate is dismaying, to say the least. It would be nice to be able to think that the guardians of the public interest are more interested in truth than polemics, but I wouldn’t urge any of you to hold your breath. The best thing that can happen on this front is for the MSM to continue its steady decline in readership / listenership and prestige (albeit at an accelerated rate) until someone wakes up, smells the coffee, and realizes that the truth matters.

Jul 15, 2004 - 5:44 pm 43. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Ben

The members of the fourth estate have not been the “guardians of the public interest” in a long, long time. When they arrogated this role to themselves is when they started their decline.

Ultimately, the problem is fed by a lack of diversity. Group-think is the order of the day. Want a Pulitzer? Don’t upset the comfy apple-cart. Want your story to get good placement? Don’t write from the wrong attitude.

In the past (and still in many other countries), there is diversity of the press, with the ideological biases well known. In the US, most cities have one major daily, maybe a “free press” of some sort that is reflexively left, and that’s it.

The network TV people all live in the same town and go to the same parties and think the same way.

Add to that the arrogance of their pride in calling, and the arrogance of being insiders, and you have a group that knows that it is the elite which should form public opinion because only it knows what is happening and important. Again, with group-think, they all think the same way.

The result: spoon-fed pap, carefully flavored with ABB sauce, and devoid of any grains of disturbing truths.

Jul 15, 2004 - 6:05 pm 44. Ben:

John Moore –

I agree with you that a healthy dose of competition would improve the situation dramatically, but I have two caveats: (1) The economics of the media industry are such that most cities don’t have the market to support more than one major newspaper; and (2) All of the competition in the world will not do the least amount of good if media outlets do not pay a price for being irresponsible. For example, the LAT gets a lot of competition from other sources of news (e.g., the internet, television, radio), but it’s not clear that its irresponsibility has actually cost it anything.

Jul 15, 2004 - 6:25 pm 45. Assistant Village Idiot:

Just a quick Hail Fellow Well Met for Roger trying (quixoticly) to keep the old sterner meaning of “liberal” alive. It is worth continuing that struggle for several decades yet, even without hope of victory, that those who come after may have some chance of being informed.

Jul 15, 2004 - 7:18 pm 46. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Ben

I guess I should have said “ideological competition.”

It’s ironic that the free market brings about a leftist monopoly.

I don’t think the irresponsibility will cost much until there are good alternatives. I no longer get my local rag (Arizona Repulsive) because it turned left and overly feminist, and I don’t need it with the internet.

Younger folks today almost have internet jacks into their brains. They are going to have a much greater choice about where their news comes from.

Furthermore, as high speed internet gets even faster, TV and cable start loosing their appeal. Imagine a device that you could hang on the wall, and play high definition video from the internet through. Imagine you also have a smaller one that you can carry around. Then add in the ability of normal people to feed that video into the network. Now add in blogs or logical derivations from blogs, and you have:

1) Raw news from many sources

2) News analyses from many sources (blogs)

3) Entertainment from the same technology.

4) Various levels of commercialization of this, in varying mixes, from totally open to strongly branded.

I see no reason why something like this might become very big. Two prescient books come to mind: Jahn Brunner’s Stand on Zanzibar has the ubiquity of the net, decades before the cyberpunk authors, and Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card, with (if I remember correctly) the eqivalent of bloggers exerting major influence.

Put another way, those MSM bastards are dead. They just haven’t fallen over yet.

Jul 15, 2004 - 7:57 pm 47. IceCold:

TmjUtah, megapotamus, I’m afraid I agree with others here who like me share your dismay with the inaccurate, unprofessional, and misleading media, but who don’t see them paying a price, now or soon.

TmjUtah, I can’t agree on most of your point re WH PR strategery. I do agree that the Bush WH approach to media — which few may recall pre-9/11 was consciously “we don’t have to be the lead news item every day” — was refreshing and proper. But that’s not what’s at issue here, really.

The day the Joe Wilson op-ed came out, a friend and I (both with foreign policy backgrounds) talked on the phone and both assumed that the WH would quickly and savagely pulverize the non-story. There were several uranium sources in Africa, Wilson had only had limited exposure to the intel picture concerning one of them, and the nuclear weapons assessment on Iraq involved a lot more than just yellowcake procurement. In short, his op-ed was preposterously overstated and lacking in documentation — in the old days it wouldn’t have made it past the asst. op-ed editor’s desk without being nixed for lack of sourcing on such audacious charges.

The WH’s proper response was pretty simple. A call to 10 Downing to get SIS’s assurances they stood by the Africa assessment, and also to ask whether said assessment relied in any way on the famous documents (though it was already clear from timing that the answer was no). A call to Langley to find out what Wilson reported, what CIA thought of it, whether he had had any access to the British report or its sourcing, or whether there had been any other developments affecting the Africa question.

Armed with the responses (which in the British case would have yielded the answers that they stood by the assessment and it was made without any reference to the forged documents), and with a copy of the SOTU as-delivered with the Sixteen Words underlined in yellow, the press secretary should have gone to the press room and said:

“An opinion piece today made serious charges against the administration. These charges are completely unfounded, and the author, Amb. Wilson, is simply in no position to offer an informed view of the matter — much less to accuse the President of misleading the nation and the world.

“First, the SOTU made no reference to Niger (holds up speech). The reference was to Africa, and there are several uranium sources in Africa besides Niger.

“Second, Amb. Wilson has not had access to all intelligence on Iraqi uranium procurement — not even close.

“Third, even the findings from Wilson’s mission, contrary to his op-ed, were deemed to strengthen the case made by British intelligence.

“Fourth, the British stand by their assessment.

“Fifth, the British further point out that their conclusions took no account of any forged documents, which weren’t even in the hands of allied intelligence agencies when the British assessment was made.

We think Amb. Wilson should read the SOTU a little more closely, and review the limits of his information, before making irresponsible and offensive charges.”

I could be wrong, but I fail to see how this response, which was completely valid and could have been easily pulled together, would not have been vastly preferrable to Rice and Tenet pointing fingers at each other, which was about the extent of the WH reaction. Major malfunction by the WH, at many levels.

Jul 15, 2004 - 9:36 pm 48. TmjUtah:

Ice Cold -

I do not disagree with your proposition that the WH response to Wilson could have indeed been much more effective than it was. I have toyed with the idea that one factor we often overlook when judging the administration’s response to the media is just how apolitical most of the national security members of the cabinet really are; they have real jobs to do and their focus is on getting them done. Wilson’s thrown bomb was clearly a political act, and was in fact refutable on its face given the data available. Maybe the breakdown ocurred because nobody was designated to swing that particular bat.

We spent the entire Clinton administration witnessing the elevation of political ass-covering as the primary mission of the offices and agencies of the executive branch. In the slipstream of that operation, the rest of Washington dug in and resolved to be unnoticed at best, not actively targetted by dint of controversy or agenda at worst. Media functions in the environment it creates, and it seems that what began with Watergate has matured into something beyond ugly.

Real people working on real problems can devote their energy to dealing with the challenges before them, or they can slice off a chunk of finite time for packaging and spinning to cover their backsides in case things aren’t perfect. If you blundered in a manner that caused a Rasmussen hiccup affecting the Clinton White House, you were GONE. I don’t think that the Bush administration has played that game much, if at all; if memory serves me, almost all the departed cabinet or staff members who’ve been moved out thus far were moved out for failing to perform or failing to embrace policy. That’s a personal impression and I don’t know if it stands up to rigorous analysis.

I contend we picked up a very bad habit (as consumers of information) and haven’t been able to shake it.

I have stated before that MSM has written a pile of checks that they cannot cover. The call on the debt can take a multitude of forms: success in Iraq/Afghanistan, a booming economy with no inflation/unemployment spikes, anything resembling a landslide win and mandate for Bush…not to mention events like the current Wilson embarassment. I do not yet feel as John Moore does, that the beast is dead but the message hasn’t made it to the hindbrain…

…but they have surely chosen a side and tied their efforts and fortune to it. They see their world as stories and somehow miss the fact that what they really deal with is life and death and history. For decades, whenever the chips were called in they just printed up more money and came back to the table, ready to play another hand. They thought that it was in their power to say “The End” whenever it was convenient, and got used to just printing another story the next day.

That state of affairs no longer applies.

Jul 15, 2004 - 10:43 pm 49. TmjUtah:

Ice, one more thing…

You obviously have the timeline and relevant facts down. I did, too, and for the same reason as you: being able to gather my own information from scores of sources and judge for myself what the real story was.

We aren’t alone.

Jul 16, 2004 - 6:07 am 50. Roberts:

I think part of the reason that the Bush administration didn’t do a better job of explaining the yellowcake issue was that they were afraid of putting more pressure on the Blair government – who if you have not been paying attention has been hanging on by his fingernails.

Jul 16, 2004 - 8:52 am 51. furious:

Roger:

Such a classy blog, and an erudite audience: one of the commenters above actually used the word “plinth”.

And Lyin’ Joe Wilson isn’t merely an Arabist, he’s on the Saudi payroll (via his fellowship at the Middle East Institute). All those former and soon-to-be former diplomats looking for a retainer to augment their gov’t pensions.

And…and…when the outing of his wife occurred, his website at the MEI (link no longer available, alas) mentioned her under her maiden (operational) name. So much for clandestine cover.

–furious.

Jul 16, 2004 - 11:48 am 52. Sissy Willis:

Now that the cover of The Church of Bush Lied has been blown, and Father Joe is revealed as The Father of Lies himself, how to understand why he did it?

The Father of Lies

Jul 16, 2004 - 4:06 pm

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