25 Comments

1. marek:

Fight? How exactly? There are about 6 million millitant anti-semitic Muslims in France plus the maybe softer anti-semitic press, academia, establishment, native population. Did I miss something? The other friendly Europeans?

Remember, there were millions of european Jews who would never imagine what the cultured Germans could do.

Maybe Europe of today is not the Europe of the 1930-ies, but how is one to know for sure? And when does it become too late?

Jul 19, 2004 - 7:19 am 2. richard mcenroe:

So much of the economic, artistic, scientific and intellectual vitality of Europe was fed into the ovens or driven over the seas. Europe is still paying the price… and has yet to learn that lesson. If Europe won’t protect its remaining Jews, the Jews owe them nothing.

If Israel won’t take the Jews of Europe, we should.

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:07 am 3. richard mcenroe:

So much of the economic, artistic, scientific and intellectual vitality of Europe was fed into the ovens or driven over the seas. Europe is still paying the price… and has yet to learn that lesson. If Europe won’t protect its remaining Jews, the Jews owe them nothing.

If Israel won’t take the Jews of Europe, we should.

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:08 am 4. Knucklehead:

I certainly cannot speak for Jews living in France. But for those leaving for Israel I can’t help but think what they are “saying” is something like, “It is impossible to fight on this ground – I will lose and I cannot afford that. I know people will hate me and even try to kill me in Israel, but at least there I will have a fighting chance.”

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:16 am 5. Knucklehead:

What we are watching in Palestine now is the relentlessness of the Cult of Hatred. The hatred has a life of its own the cult has trained its members to act upon hatred. If it can’t be turned directly against Israel it will be turned elsewhere and, it seems, the most convenient elsewhere is right there among themselves.

Its darned easy to miss “reality” sneaking right up on us, but any fool could have foreseen this outcome. The Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves and the Euros should be ashamed for having funded the Cult of Hatred. They won’t put blame where it belongs or feel any shame, of course.

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:24 am 6. ricpic:

I really hope the Palestinian thugs kick the living s**t out of each other. And if that sounds insensitive, so be it.

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:34 am 7. marek:

Just think – in 1993 Arafat (the darling of UN) and his thugs returned in triumph to Gaza and were given an autonomy, arms for their militias (40,000+ strong), massive financial support from EU and USA and an unlomited moral support from the whole world. In few years, in the framework of Oslo Israel have withdrawn from all major towns in Gaza and the WB.

And where is the PA today? Ten+ years of a total waste of all the economical support, corrupted administration and local governments, somewhere between 2 to 3 thousand dead and practically total loss of Israelis good will.

But still the little darlings of world’s left. I guess they deserve each other.

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:46 am 8. yadid:

Hi from Tel Aviv…

I guess, (and part of my guess is based on the fact that right now I live almost 8 years in New York) that Roger’s comment about Sharon’s comment is partly because Roger is living in a free country. However, as an Israeli whose parents lost their entire huge family during the WW2, in what is usually related as the “Holocaust”, I see things differently.

During the ‘30 European Jews had a similar reaction to Roger’s. And, similar to today, there were many calls from Jewish leaders suggesting them to leave Europe.

Come on guys…this is not the time to play PC.

Europe, at least it’s western part, was in rest for too much time. It will not stay peaceful for too many years, and the early victems will be he Jews.

I already called my french Jewish friends to leave France. I don’t think a catastrophe is about to happen this year or next year. However, nobody knew what would happen on 1939 back in 1935. At least we can learn from Europe’s history something so we don’t make the same mistake.

Roger, 9/11 was a turning point for you and many Americans. We in Israel learned that leason long time before 9/11. Sharon’s call was not according to diplomatic protocol, but so is the danger waiting to french and other European Jews. Are we going to trust the UN to protect European Jews? (Ask the people in Kosovo and Darfur if their death was according to diplomatic protocol….)

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:58 am 9. jerry:

If the Jews of France want to stay they need to learn to fight by “Chicago Rules”…

“If they bring a knife, you birng a gun, If they send one of of yours to the hospital then you send two of theirs to the morgue.”

If you are not willing to fight then Sharon is right, leave, although I would recommend the United States.

Jul 19, 2004 - 9:04 am 10. heather:

Do I think that Jews with children should leave Europe for Israel?, well:

Last weekend, Simon Sebag Montefiore (author of the recent Stalin book) wrote a column comparing today’s Europe to Franz Kafka’s pre war anti semitic Europe. Sometimes, the depth of something is revealed as a subtext most clearly in popular entertainment. And so it was on PBS this weekend, in a TV BBC/PBS English whodunit drama:

Although it was a straightforward detective story, set in 1940, during the early part of the war, it had a surprising twist to it. There is a murder of a local man. One of the red herrings is the landing of a spy (portrayed as a rather nice blonde fellow, touching really, he gives the detective some good information in return for which his family back in Germany will be told that he is thinking of them as he is being executed as a spy… sniffle….but he is very heroic and stalwart as he awaits execution in jail)

The Bad Guy is an AMERICAN. He is a brash fellow who many years ago stole a valuable idea from the sad British corpse and made tons of money on it, and now he is back, negotiating the Lend Lease agreement, which will give England 50 old leaky ships. Even though he is a heartless thief and murderer who has wrecked the life of an honest British engineer genius, he must be allowed to go back to the USA because he is so important to the war effort.

AND, THE REALLY INTERESTING PART IS THAT HE LOOKS EXACTLY “LIKE A JEW”, WITH LARGE NOSE; SEMITIC FEATURES; SHORT AND PODGY. There is even a clear, pitiless shot of his profile. A Jew if I ever saw one in Hitler’s propaganda.

The show is called Foyle’s War, Part 1, “Fifty Ships”, and was on PBS.

Now, that is interesting.

The fact is that Europe enthusiastically rid itself of “its” Jews during WWII – and after one generation of ‘downtime’ enthusiastically took up the cause of the Palestinian Intifada. Open anti semitism is okay in polite society. Desecration of Jewish cemeteries has RESUMED, at an even greater pace than during the Nazi hegemony.

I think Sharon was making a sane suggestion to the French Jewish Community, except that he should have said “European” Jewish community.

Jul 19, 2004 - 9:23 am 11. Mike_Nargizian:

The PBS special was written by a leftist apologetic for Stalin? What’s the point of the ‘doc/mystery’ thriller? Why would PBS air it?

I take Sharon’s statement in a few ways -

1) He really doesn’t care what the “Europeans” think of his statement. Unlike most politicians he really doesn’t give a crap about what “polite” society will say about him in France or Europe.

2) He said it because Israel needs immigration and because France is a descending hole for Jews.

So the result is either France starts protecting the Jews there or they leave, either one is an acceptable result. The other result of Sharon being seen as a brute by the “polite French society” well who cares.

I can’t speak for French Jews and we are assuming that all of them are generally supportive of Israel. But I hope they go to Israel not the US. And per capita I believe French Jews travel, visit and live in Israel more than American Jews and certainly more than California Jews, that’s for dam sure.

The cute waitress killed in the Mike’s Place bombing by British Islamofascists was French.

A FEW QUESTIONS

1) Does ISM get leftist French Jews as well?

2) If not is it because they only target the US?

or because the left in the US is more dillusional than in France? (that can’t be)

or because the left wing Jews in France while being strong leftists are more faced with reality than the left wing Jews in the US?

Jul 19, 2004 - 9:53 am 12. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

There are two issues here: Gaza and French Jewry.

On the first, what exactly can the international community do (assuming Kerry doesn’t become president)? It has been uniformly hostile to Israel for years. It doesn’t have any military worth a damn – the IDF is exceeded in combat power only by the US and France.

So international forces are not going into Gaza without Israeli permission, which Sharon has said will not be given.

That the Palestinian young crazies are going to take over is obvious – either now or later. Look at how they have been raised: school where the maps don’t contain the state of Israel; TV full of antisemitism and anti-Israeli slander; the celebration of suicide bombers (often youngsters) who kill the innocent – the more children, the better; rabid antiAmericanism; death as excitement – look at the sick scenes when anyone is killed – their leaders or others whom they kill in their land – you have these youths running around in a state of ecstasy holding human body parts.

I would advise those few Palestinians who are not caught up in this craziness to emigrate, because all hell is going to break loose in “Palestine” and there is nothing anyone can do about it. In such chaos, Israeli covert action can act to kill the most dangerous potential leaders without being detected.

Remember, “peace keeping” means there is a peace to keep, and the UN is incompetent at creating peace. Besides, without US support, the international community cannot even get to the area. I was told by an army officer that Europeans could not even control Kosovo if the US left, and they can drive to the place.

It is not good for Israel that it has a crazy neighbor. Sharon’s plan to pull out of Gaza made a lot of sense – Israel would no longer be “the occupying power.”

The same sort of madness will probably overtake the West Bank also. Hence the Fence [rhymes... slogan? no]. Stop the terror bombings now and create a separation for the future.

If Israel ceases to be an occupying power, it will be free to respond appropriately (which is to say, massively) to the inevitable mortar and rocket attacks that will ensue.

As far as French Jews… Le Pen is antisemitic. Importantly, he is anti-immigration, tough on crime, and nationalistic in a transnational Europe. That Buchananite viewpoint could gain traction if crime by Muslim youths increase or the French people feel their national pride trampled by EU mandates.

I would be nervous were I Jewish and in France. I don’t see forces strong enough to repeat a Krystallnacht, unless Le Penn gets stronger. I doubt there will be restrictions on travel or emigation any time soon. But if enough Jews leave, the French (or EU) might apply confiscatory taxes to emigrants.

However, I suspect the EU will become authoritarian within 5-10 years, and after that, there is no telling what might happen. Israel obviously wants Jews to immigrate

Jul 19, 2004 - 10:00 am 13. JamieIrons:

Roger, you wrote:

“Besides the obvious lack of diplomatic subtlety in his remarks, I’m not sure that the answer to the rising anti-Semitism in France is to cut and run.”

I think the *positive* thing about Sharon’s undiplomatic remarks is their raising the probability that the French, and perhaps even a few in this country, will become more aware of how dire the situation in France has become.

(I, too, am an optimist.)

Jamie Irons

Jul 19, 2004 - 10:04 am 14. Rick Ballard:

Wretchard has another excellent piece up describing what is happening in the Gaza from a strategic view. Meanwhile, in Beirut, Hezbollah begins a search to fill a vacant leadership position. Bzz Bzz Bzz – pesky Israelis.

Jul 19, 2004 - 10:47 am 15. Imshin:

Actually, according to Ehud Ya’ari, top Israeli analyst for Arab affairs, speaking on Israel’s channel 2 before, Uncle Yasser didn’t actually fire his nephew Moussa. What he did was take away his office (literally) but not the appointment. Typical Arafat behavior.

Jul 19, 2004 - 11:00 am 16. Knucklehead:

John Moore:

“There are two issues here: Gaza and French Jewry.”

Point well taken. I would suggest that it isn’t really “French Jewry” but something closer to the re-emergence of comfortable and popular anti-Jew sentimentis in Europe – or at least “Old Europe”.

Minor point on my part but still…

“On the first, what exactly can the international community do (assuming Kerry doesn’t become president)? It has been uniformly hostile to Israel for years. It doesn’t have any military worth a damn – the IDF is exceeded in combat power only by the US and France.”

They cannot do anything, therefore they will package whatever “actions” they choose into diplospeak non-action. Even if they had the capability to do anything they would not act. They bought into the idea of destroying Israel to make everything right in the ME. It was a false premise but they will never admit that. Too much arrogant pride and false sense of sophistication.

“That the Palestinian young crazies are going to take over is obvious – either now or later. Look at how they have been raised: school where the maps don’t contain the state of Israel; TV full of antisemitism and anti-Israeli slander; the celebration of suicide bombers (often youngsters) who kill the innocent – the more children, the better; rabid antiAmericanism; death as excitement – look at the sick scenes when anyone is killed – their leaders or others whom they kill in their land – you have these youths running around in a state of ecstasy holding human body parts.”

They willfully built the Cult of Hate and now they will pay the price; the Hate Monster is turning inward. There isn’t anything anyone can do to help or stop them, IMO, until they become so exhausted with the violence that they just run out of gas and those left alive finally look for some other answer. Its all about hate. Until they get passed that they are hosed.

I see, too late, that we agree on this.

“As far as French Jews… Le Pen is antisemitic. Importantly, he is anti-immigration, tough on crime, and nationalistic in a transnational Europe. That Buchananite viewpoint could gain traction if crime by Muslim youths increase or the French people feel their national pride trampled by EU mandates.”

I’m afraid Europe in general and France in particular will try to satiate The Beast by feeding it the Jews before it finally tries to deal with The Beast.

“I would be nervous were I Jewish and in France.”

I’d be long gone. I’ve voted with my feet before – it leaves one with the capacity to reverse one’s vote at a later date

“I don’t see forces strong enough to repeat a Krystallnacht, unless Le Penn gets stronger. I doubt there will be restrictions on travel or emigation any time soon. But if enough Jews leave, the French (or EU) might apply confiscatory taxes to emigrants.:

I don’t know that disaster will require a Krystalnacht type event. I think they just need to avert their eyes and let the Islamists do their filthy work piecemeal.

“However, I suspect the EU will become authoritarian within 5-10 years, and after that, there is no telling what might happen.”

If the EU constitution gets put in place without MAJOR structural revisions that’s where it looks like its going from my seat up in nosebleed country. My contact with Euros suggests to me that they want a facade of democracy but don’t really want “choices”. They want it all layed out for them with only minor details to fret or argue about. Benevolent Authoritarianism is really what they are after. It will start that way almost certainly, but it won’t last that way. I give them more than 5-10 years, but I don’t think Europe will get through my lifetime without becoming yet another really nasty mess with way too many people being slaughtered. Maybe, but I’m not optimistic about it.

Jul 19, 2004 - 11:50 am 17. Kevin P:

Roger:

In most cases I would agree with your notion that Jews around the world need to fight where they are and not flee in the face of bullies.But I disagree when it comes to France.The action that triggered my change of heart was the Chirac proposal to eliminate religous headware in the public schools to counteract the rise in violent attacks against Jewish temples and Jews themselves.

On the face of it this act seems trivial when compared to the size of the problem. But I think it is a sign of the attitude that the Chirac government has towards the Jews in his country. By telling the victims of terror that they have to hide their identity the French are telling the Jews that they are partially responsible for the attacks against them. That is like telling a rape victim to stop wearing short dresses.Many crackers in the south in the fifties responded to the increase of lynching by telling Blacks that if they would just stay in their place and be quiet they wouldn’t be attacked.I see the same attitude in the response of the French. The French will say, “But we are banning Muslim headgear too”, but that is not the point.The point is that they are punishing people who were attacked by telling them that they have to hide their identity to be protected in France. What will they suggest next, that any french Jew with an obvious sounding Jewish name change it.

I don’t think the law has been implemented yet. When Jews and other groups complained that the law was not fair the French turned up their noses and said this is an internal French matter.When certain Arab groups hinted at possible terrorist attacks the French took notice and started to rethink their plans.

I do not hink that Chirac and the French government are all closet Jew haters. I do think they have made the cynical decision that for economic and internal political reasons they will only go so far in protecting the rights of French Jews to live in freedom in their country.Just as the French have told us they will do anything to curry the favor of any arab or muslim government and that they will oppose any American activity in the WOT, I believe that the French have signaled to the Jews that they are beginning to turn their heads and that they will never do anything to offend any Muslim country in regards to protecting the Jews from persecution.

Jul 19, 2004 - 1:10 pm 18. rgvdh:

Roger sort-of-asks what the rest of the world can doto help the Palestinians in their current situation, and concludes “We can only pray for a minimum of bloodshed. ”

You know something? After the 9/12/2001 footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets, I can’t even be bother to do that much.

Jul 19, 2004 - 2:33 pm 19. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Correction: The only countries that have more combat power than the IDF are the US and China. I goofed and put in France. Argh. They couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag, although if diamonds or gold was involved, they could arrange for a bunch of Africans to do the fighting for them.

Jul 19, 2004 - 3:00 pm 20. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

rgvdh

I agree. There are a number of Palestinians who need to die. Those who are too full of hatred, irredeemably so, are a menace. Those who have been involved in the murder of innocents need to die.

Unfortunately, in the chaos of Palestinians, mostly the wrong people will die.

Jul 19, 2004 - 3:02 pm 21. Charlie (Colorado):

Apparently, Chirac has now told Sharon he’s not welome in France anyway.

Somehow, I don’t think Chirac has grasped Sharon’s point at all.

Jul 19, 2004 - 3:42 pm 22. Jeff:

With regard to Gaza, this is exactly what Steven Den Beste predicted.

I agree with Knucklehead that the violence and hatred of the Palestinians is going to turn inward until it burns itself out. Only when the Palesitnians are tired of killing will there be a chance for peace.

Jul 19, 2004 - 4:14 pm 23. richard mcenroe:

If this is what just one wall can accomplish, wait until we get the roof on…

Jul 19, 2004 - 8:10 pm 24. Meryl Yourish:

It’s Sharon’s job to encourage all Jews to immigrate to Israel.

He asked for the same from American Jews a few weeks ago. I don’t recall President Bush getting up in arms over the suggestion that Jews move to Israel.

Then again, nobody’s trying to force us out of here.

Jul 20, 2004 - 10:25 am 25. lindenen:

The sooner the Jews leave France and the rest of Europe, the sooner the radicalized Muslims will turn on the native population.

I think that one of the things we need to consider is the possibility that it is impossible for ethnically-based countries to integrate immigrants.

Jul 20, 2004 - 8:33 pm

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