233 Comments

1. richard mcenroe:

Actually, I thought the Swiftie on CNN made some pretty substantive points about how none of the other boats, most of them stationary, drew any fire or took damage from the evidently nonexistent shore fire.

I’m sure the man in the water testified honestly, but I’m skeptical of how objective an observer he was under the circumstances. It is entirely possible he was wrong about taking fire, or mistook the Swift boats’ suppressive fire on the shoreline as fire directed at him.

Aug 5, 2004 - 5:54 pm 2. holdfast:

I tend to hope that it is the latter explanation.

I think it’s striking that the Dems keep yammering on that none of these guys were on John Kerry’s boat. No, they weren’t they were his peers and his superiors. They are folks who are less likely to be intimidated, and far less likely to be “influenced” by their commander.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:14 pm 3. holdfast:

Oh – and I also think that the Cambodia story is important. It highlights JF’nK’s habit of making up stories to illustrate a point, when the point by itself would still be (arguably) valid. Also the tendency to totally re-write history (Vietnam was all Nixon, etc.)

Anyone remember the story about his airborne dog – VC I think his name was?

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:17 pm 4. dr. sanity:

Based on your comments, I will read the book. I am becoming increasingly disturbed by the reports (that ring true) about John Kerry’s character, and those reports, combined with his ever-changing positions on important issues, are compelling reasons not to vote for him. It is somewhat disconcerting–even frightening–to think that someone who would make up stories like the Cambodia Christmas one (the words

“narcissistic” and “self-serving” come to mind) could become CIC. God knows that anyone who has the desire to become President of the US must be somewhat narcissistic, but there is always the hope that real leaders might emerge from the process. 8 months ago, I was one of those swing voters the two parties are vying for and I might have voted for Joe Lieberman, a decent man who would be strong for our country, if the Dems had chosen him. I disagree with Bush on many social issues, but compared to Kerry, he is a sincere, principled, and decisive leader, who has earned my vote by the strength of his committment to protect America.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:19 pm 5. Kurt:

Naturally, the press is glossing over the important point: While individual recollections are always suspect for a variety of reasons, the fact is that opinion among the officers who served with Kerry and in his chain of command is overwhelmingly and severely negative. Only one out of 22 surviving officers in his unit is willing to come out as a supporter? Unless you believe that the Right-Wing Republican conspiracy was placing its operatives in Swift Boats 36 years ago to thwart John Kerry, you’d have to think that there’s something not quite right with the candidate. Perhaps the apparent character flaws that are bothering Roger are similar to what these officers noticed a long time ago.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:22 pm 6. J.R.:

The issue devolves to one of who is lying; this group of veterans or Sen. Kerry?

I keep asking myself who has anything to gain from the lie, because we lie in order to protect or advance ourselves. The calculus here points to Sen. Kerry being the liar, he gains credibility as a leader if these stories are true. The swiftboatvets gain nothing! If they are lying all they get is excoriated in the public eye. Even if they are telling the truth they have put a lot on the line for no conceivable gain. The DNC is already attacking.

I don’t know the truth here, but it is probably verifiable with some extensive research into Sen. Kerry’s service records and medical records related to his service. It will be impossible for him to embargo this research after the DNC screaming for Pres. Bush’s Guard records for the last four years.

My opinion is that we’ve just seen the Kerry candidacy turn to toast.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:24 pm 7. mrp:

Anyone remember the story about his airborne dog – VC I think his name was?

I do. If memory serves, the wise and all-powerful deity created a photo(shop) image of VC’s memorable ascension. Please behold it, Big A!

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:28 pm 8. Cybrludite:

J.R.,

“It will be impossible for him to embargo this research after the DNC screaming for Pres. Bush’s Guard records for the last four years.”

With most of the media in his pocket? You wanna put money on that?

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:29 pm 9. richard mcenroe:

J.R. ó Well, you have one guy with what, five witnesses, at least some of whom may have been benefited from supporting his testimony, on one side, and something like a hundred and fifty witnesses on the other who contradict his every story. Kerry’s gonna need some Kobe-class lawyerin’ for this one…

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:33 pm 10. John Lynch:

MSNBC just had one of the SwiftBoatVets and one of Kerry’s vets in a too short point-counterpoint.

Foxnews also covered the story, as did CNN.

I’ve been scanning the news sites (mainstream stuff) at CBS, MSNBC, ABC, FoxNews, Bloomberg, as well as BBC.

Up until an hour ago, only FoxNews had the story, then CBS. I’m sure the others will get on it soon.

NYT doesn’t have it yet.

MSNBC is doing something like “McCain deplores

anti-Kerry ad

White House declines

to repudiate it”

This thing is going to be examined closely. If its stands up, in facts, then it could do some serious damage. I hope these guys didn’t stretch any truths.

Even if F9/11 is bull, I’d like this to be a clean take-down.

I don’t usually buy these kinds of books, but I guess I’ll head from here to Amazon.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:43 pm 11. Doug:

The Bush administration has wisely distanced itself from this. But these allegations are nothing like those against Bill Clinton. They are much more serious. The Dems. will try to smear the makers of the allegations as they always do. (remember what they did to Paula Jones) But already you can read between the lines. They respond to the ad by accusing the vets of lying. They say none of the men served on Kerry’s BOAT. They did not claim to have been on his boat. They said they served with him. I am sure this will be verified as true. They say the man who claims to have treated his wounds is not a doctor. I’m sure he was a field medic. They also say Conservative activists contributed to the group. So what? Do liberals care that George Soros has contributed millions to anti-Bush groups? Does the fact that Michael Moore is a leftist make his film less legitimate to them? The hypocrisy makes me nauseous. I can only conclude that these people genuinely believe that they are right and anyone who opooses their agenda is illegitimate and not worth listening to. This must not be dismissed. It is clearly relevant. John Kerry has disturbed me for a long time. His entire bio is wierd. I have never heard of anyone getting three purple hearts without spending one day in the hospital. As I see it, these guys have no motive to lie. Indeed if they can be proven as lies, it is actionable slander. I think their are plenty of reasons to oppose Kerry even if he served with great honor. But if he did not, it is a slander on genuine war heroes to call Kerry a war hero. The strangest thing of all about Kerry is the way he has bragged about his service. I have never known ANY veteran that has used his war service to THIS extent. Not even JFK made it the centerpiece of his entire campaign. I will not be called a right winger or a partisan because I am willing to question the convetional wisdom that this man is a great hero.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:44 pm 12. mrp:

Here’s the VC flight, as captured by the ruler of worlds.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:49 pm 13. Bostonian:

A very good friend of mine has posed a question that I will just throw out here for discussion. Could it simply be that these guys are in this for revenge, for Kerry’s stateside anti-war activities?

Now don’t yell at me. I’m just saying we might see this spin. It would be interesting, because it would open up that whole story even more fully.

Aug 5, 2004 - 6:50 pm 14. jedrury:

The ad is very impressive. The credibilty of these vets is clearly supported by their lack of motive to lie, their age, their occupations, the clarity of their memories, and their respectable demeanor as seen in the ad.

By coming forward, they surely expected to be subjected to a barrage of allegations calling them “liars” from young fuzzy faced Kerry campaign aides who never sighted a rifle and invasive questions by aggressive doubting news reporters like Judy Woodruff. I can not think for a second that they are lying for this 15 minutes of shame. Preposterous.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:02 pm 15. zak braverman:

Color me jaded, but I don’t think things like this are going to make a whole lot of difference. People who were going to vote for Kerry will dismiss it, and those who were going to vote for Bush will believe it. The act of changing one’s mind based on new information is something most people are incapable of–they simply emliminate or discount information which doesn’t reinforce their existing positions.

That might not be true of many people in his forum–I know it isn’t for Roger himself–but that’s the way it is for most people in general.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:04 pm 16. John Lynch:

Well Bostonian, I’m sure we will see all kinds of spin and counter-attacks. It is a given.

Some number of people will believe it even if it turns out completely false. Some won’t believe it even if there is video evidence and Mother Theresa’s testimony.

The real value to this will be with the undecideds.

Motives will be examind, but I, like Doug and J.R. above, can’t see much of a motive. Revenge is possible. Money (from the book) is possible. But neither seem enough to go through what they are going to go through if it is not verifiable truth.

Here’s hoping.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:07 pm 17. richard mcenroe:

From Instapundit, Kerry Lawyers Up Again

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:14 pm 18. penwil:

I think their motive is just what they say it is: from what they observed of his behavior both in Viet Nam and afterward, they don’t believe that Kerry is fit to be CIC. He sounds to me like he was the type of junior officer who often ended up getting their men killed by being either stupid or scared. That’s bad enough when all you’re talking about is a few guys on a swift boat. When you’re talking about a man who will have command over the largest army in the world . . . God save us.

He is striking me more and more as a small, hollow poseur of a man. The kind of man who was the inspiration for Carly Simon’s “You’re So Vain.” You got one eye on the mirror and you watch yourself a lot . . .

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:14 pm 19. M. Simon:

Bostonian,

No need for revenge on Kerry’s state side policy.

That will take care of itself in due course.

Study the history of Winter Soldier and Dewey Canyon.

You can get a lot of it from Google.

Operation Swift Boat is just the opening salvo.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:24 pm 20. Katie:

I think the people who have the greatest chance of being affected by an ad like this are my grandparents and people like them. My grandparents have voted in every election for the past 65 or so years, and have voted Democrat ever since FDR. The chances of them voting for a Republican, ever, are not good, even though their politics are much closer to Bush’s than Kerry’s. However, my grandfather received a purple heart in WWII as a tank commander or something similar, and would feel VERY strongly about someone lying to get medals or doing something similarly dishonorable. A few thousand of the WWII generation Democrats could have some serious effects.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:28 pm 21. Knucklehead:

Bostonian:

I can’t see any sense to a “revenge” motive. The idea of lining up this many people, some of whom surely have a great deal to lose, to get together and create a lie for the purpose of getting revenge, not likely.

All it would take to put the kabosh on such a plan is one or a few to say something like, “Hey, comeon now guys, its 30 years later and I’m not gonna cook up a lie to get even with somebody for lying about me.” And some of these guys, such as O’Neill, are sophisticated enough to know that the story will be hammered on. They aren’t stupid enough to think they could keep a revenge motivated lie intact even if they were somehow stupid enough to cook up the idea in the first place.

This could ultiimately turn out any way, but as others have said above, there just doesn’t seem much of a case for the Swiftvets to cook this up. At the very least they strongly believe this. Given that Kerry is such a Lurch Lookin nutball it seems unlikely to me that they have some sort of composite mistaken identity thing going here either.

Is there one of those Iowa Markets things anywhere taking bets (investments?) on the truth or dare of this? I’d give it 95% of being at least 85% correct. Too many people involved to try to pull off fraud.

The single most plausible answer is that one self-absorbed nutball (that would be Kerry) cooked up a fantasy and ride it too hard and put it up wet.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:34 pm 22. Knucklehead:

BTW, if anyone is doing an Iowa Markets gaming thing on this, what’s the odds Kerry will say, “Hey, this is all a bunch of slanderous crap and I’ve authorized DoD to release ALL my records to prove it.” Anybody want that bet?

Kerry cooked his own goose, hope he likes the taste of it. We’ll get a few days of people thinking this is just a horrible attack by the horrible, mean-sprited Republicans, but Kerry can’t manage sincerity and if anyone in the MSM keeps on it even a little bit he’s toast.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:39 pm 23. Ric Locke:

This is what’s bothered me from the beginning about John Kerry. Look, there are two relevant “types” in the military, the braggart (”barroom blowhard”) and the hyperaggressive “Rambo.” The first is a fun-object, who may or may not be honored depending on the quality of the stories he tells; a competitor to Roger, in a different genre . The second was once honored, but more and more as our military becomes professional the Rambo character slips more and more into being viewed as useless, even counterproductive.

Both types have traditionally been dissed by the Left, the blowhard as inspiring people who would otherwise be peaceful to violence, the Rambo-type for his personal actions. In this we militarists considered that we had a thin but real connection to the leftists; our disapprobation wasn’t and isn’t as great as theirs, but it does exist.

It only takes one or two listens to John Kerry’s stories to place him immediately into the “barroom blowhard” category, a person who exaggerates when he doesn’t precisely lie. A skilful blowhard is immensely entertaining, and in a backhanded way there’s actually a competition for status in this category, but he’d damned well better be able to back up his stories with evidence or his respect goes to nothing; good storytelling skills are not a predictor of leadership ability, rather the reverse.

And Kerry’s own stories and claims place him squarely in the Rambo category — zooming in under fire to rescue a man in the water, heading off into the village with an M-16 and a grim expression. The dissing he gets from his “brother” officers and his chain of command point directly to exactly the same thing, a hotheaded, egotistical, all-guns-blazing hero, the type who gets medals in order to get the asshole out of there — what Robert Townsend called “percussive sublimation”: if he’s promoted he isn’t screwing up the unit any more.

The curious thing is: the same people who’ve been sneering at war stories, and putting Rambo up as the archetype of Evil Military ever since the movie came out and the name became available, are now the ones complimenting John Kerry on his war heroism and oohing and aahing at his vainglorious sea stories. Can’t they keep their own ideology straight?

Percussive sublimation won’t work here, because there’s no post higher than President. Maybe we can go sideways. When is Kofi Annan’s term over?

Regards,

Ric Locke

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:43 pm 24. Stephen_M:

penwil, You walked into the party

Like you were walking onto a yacht

Your hat strategically dipped below one eye

Your scarf it was apricot

You had one eye in the mirror

As you watched yourself gavotte

Gavotte — A French peasant dance of Baroque origin

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:56 pm 25. Terry:

Bostonian asks, “Could it simply be that these guys are in this for revenge, for Kerry’s stateside anti-war activities?”

Kerry was accused of “war crimes” in an election in the ’90s (maybe against Bill Weld?). It is my understanding that several of these same anti-Kerry vets came to his defense. They defended him not because they agreed with him on issues but because they served with him and knew the charges to be untrue.

Aug 5, 2004 - 7:58 pm 26. Ric Locke:

Addendum:

If Kerry really is a blowhard sea-story teller — and it looks more and more as if he is — he falls squarely into the saddest, most pitiful subdivision of that group: the guy whose accomplishments are real and substantive, but for whom that’s not enough. The guy who detected the ambush and saved his patrol, but that’s not enough; he has to have personally killed fifty VC. The guy who’s gotten commendations as a paratrooper, but that’s not enough; he has to be Special Forces instead of 82nd, with a hundred combat drops. The guy who was wounded in a combat extraction, but that’s not enough; he has to have made love to the head nurse at Bethesda on the ward.

If you meet one such, strive to be kind. When they aren’t rich they often end up on the street, with a bottle of cheap wine in a brown paper bag, repeating their stories over and over in a drunken slur to uncaring passers-by. I’ve met ‘em at bus stations and on street corners, in cheap bars and dives; some of them are relatives and high-school classmates. Their signature is, “Listen,” (finger point), “I was in the Nam, you know,” accompanied by a direct stare that falls away when you meet their eyes. The story follows…

Listen to their stories as long as you can; give ‘em a fiver if they’re down and out; break contact at the earliest opportunity, for your own sanity; shed a tear for them; and never, ever, ever give them any responsibility whatever.

Regards,

Ric Locke

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:02 pm 27. richard mcenroe:

But sometimes a Kerry Story can be the start of something so much more…

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:05 pm 28. M. Simon:

Terry,

That brings up another very good point. Was Kerry lying re: Winter Soldier/Dewey Canyon? He said he saw war crimes. He never reported them.

Which in fact makes him a war criminal.

Unless he was lying.

Either way, not a pretty picture. His lying got 2 million killed. Talk about your war criminal.

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:08 pm 29. richard mcenroe:

Terry ó Kerry accuses himself now of war crimes, in 71 in front of the whole damn senate, just this year on Face the Nation– when he isn’t painting himself as the heroic defender of the nation in a useless war he never approved of…

Fugbuck. Utterly.

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:09 pm 30. William Dyer:

Re the CNN interview, the “gotcha” moment (from the transcript — I didn’t see it live) was the unanswered question, “Why did none of the boats have any bullet holes in them?”

I’m inclined to give Mr. Rassman the benefit of the doubt about the “fog of war.” If the Americans in the vicinity were shooting at the banks, and if he’d seen one boat hit a mine and was in the water himself, one need not impute any evil motive to the man in thinking that he (rather than the bushes on the bank) was under fire.

But after things calmed down, after he was dry and with a blanket wrapped around him, after his heartbeat was back to normal and his thoughts had stopped being full-time frantic prayers — where were the bullet holes in the boat?

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:14 pm 31. richard mcenroe:

William Dyer ó I don’t know that he was praying; per se. The one time I was in a situation remotely similar I wound up reciting the Blasphemer’s Prayer. You know, “Oh, Jesus, Oh, Shit, Oh, Jesus, Oh, Shit, Oh, Jesus, Oh, Shit, Oh, Jesus, Oh, Shit,…”

Kerry, according to Brinkley’s book, was far more introspective about such things. Why, when he was pinned down by enemy fire, he passed the time wondering if the folks back in Rochester appreciated the sacrifices the troops were making. Of course, while he was wondering, the unit he was with was still getting the shit shot out of it, but any good officer has to have his sensitive side…

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:38 pm 32. J.R.:

I think the relevant song is not “You’re so Vain” but the lovely tune by Kerry supporter Bruce Springsteen “Glory Days.” This song seems to embody Kerry.

Aug 5, 2004 - 8:57 pm 33. Mark in Mexico:

I have also visited all that I can find so far today on this, including the faxed copy of the letters being sent out by Kerry’s and the DNC’s lawyers. The legal threats seem to be his only answer so far.

The letter seems very vague. It states that the men are claiming to have served on Kerry’s boat, when in fact they do not make such a claim. The letter says that there is no record that he was treated by the medic, but does not deny that he was treated by the medic. It states that the record of the Defense Department is clear, but we all know that. It says that a station has the right to refuse to sell air time for an ad if the station knows it to be false.

The unspoken, but clear, threat is that if a station sells air time for the ad and it turns out to be false, Kerry and the DNC will sue the crap out of the station.

The stations will need an owner with deep pockets to risk this ad. You know, someone with more money than God, or even Terayza.

Calling Rupert Murdoch.

Mark in Mexico

Aug 5, 2004 - 9:11 pm 34. Kevin P:

Roger and All:

The MSM should cover this story but they won’t.Well,let me restate that, they will cover it but only from the perspective of it being a dirty Republican trick. The Bush campaign has been hit with 62 million dollars of 527 group ads but the first of these type of ads to be explained away as “dirty tricks” or have the funders of the ad be accused of conspiracy is this one.

Compare the upcoming coverage of this story with the Bush AWOL urban myth.The Dems dig up the old story from the 2000 election and accuse Bush of deserting his responsibility. The MSM takes the accusation at face value. They press Bush’s press secretary to release all his service files. They say this is a legitamate story and Bush has to provide proof that he wasn’t AWOL. When the records are dug up by the Army they bury the story that shows that Bush fully met his commitment to the military.

So far the MSM is rallying to Kerry defense like they are criminal defense attorneys.They don’t even report the accusations before they are are reporting that this is a dirty republican trick. They will spend more time writing about the funding of the 527 group them they will on the story itself. They will also spend more time rehashing the McCain whispering campaign story. They won’t press Kerry to release his full military jacket as Bush did, they will let him get by with the partial edited release that he has already released. They will also ignore the bully tactics of the lawsuit threat against any station that runs the ad.As the Newsweek reporter said, the MSM is in the tank for Kerry. Thank God for the blogs

I do not know whether or not the stories of the swift boat veterans are true or not. But I know enough about the MSM to think they will not cover it with the rabid furor they covered the bogus AWOL story. And I know where to go to get a full picture of the story so I can make up my own mind.

Aug 5, 2004 - 9:33 pm 35. RandMan:

If Sen. Kerry’s actions before, during, or after Viet Nam wind up costing him at the polls, the Dems only have themselves to blame.

I’ve always believed there was a chance that Kerry’s actions during that era had the potential to sink his candidacy. The reason being is that we all know the nation still bears scars from that era. That being the case, is it wise to choose a candidate that many believe helped cause the wounds in the first place? At the very least, many folks likley believe Kerry poured salt on the wounds with his post-combat statements. The Dems need a pol with a Viet Nam record that more closely mirrors Sen. McCain, instead they nominated a vet version of Abbe Hoffman disguised as a taller Audie Murphy.

Obviously, only time will tell how this will play out.

Aug 5, 2004 - 9:52 pm 36. Lapsed Randian 2:

I hate to be a party pooper, but I think the better course of action here is for President Bush to take McCain’s advice, and turn it into a Sister Soulja moment.

I agree with Roger several posts ago, and am still wondering how what somebody did 30 years ago matters right now. Yes, I know he “opened the door,” but it is now time for Bush to close it, and bloody his nose while doing it (mixed metaphor alert…)

The President should call a press conference and distance himself from these attacks, remind the public that he has been accused of being AWOL by the DNC Chairman and therefore knows how this feels, and then clearly state to the public that the War on Terror is more important than a pissing match about what everybody did after they left Yale.

Mediators call this a conciliatory gesture, and it is a powerful tool for persuasion. Moreover, it would confirm Bush’s image as a generous person, and Kerry’s image as stingy and ungracious. Thereafter, every time Kerry brings up Viet Nam, something he is genetically incapable of avoiding, he will be the one responsible for the fallout.

We all know Kerry believes Viet Nam is the ace up his sleeve. Why not take it away from him?

Aug 5, 2004 - 10:27 pm 37. richard mcenroe:

FWIW, both O’Neill’s “Unfit for Command” and Hugh Hewitt’s “If It’s Not Close, They Can’t Cheat” were sold out at the Sherman Oaks Borders when I went there today… So maybe we’re not all preaching to the converted here…

Aug 5, 2004 - 10:45 pm 38. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I’ve long believed that indicators about character are more important in a presidential campaign than normally given. There were ample indicators about Clinton in 1992 to indicate his negative traits – womanizing, lying, use of power for personal purposes, etc. They were ignored or described (even above) as invalid attacks. But those attacks did more to predict Clinton’s behavior than normal issues.

To get an idea how Vietnam Veterans feel, imagine that after one of the most important events of your life, your efforts were disparaged, you were called names, you were accused of terrible atrocities, and it was all done by an opportunist who was aiding the enemy cause.

Now, thirty some years later, with most of us having put Vietnam behind us, that same bastard shows up and runs as a war hero.

Those who say “it was 30 years ago, it doesn’t matter” are missing two things. First, it matters to 3,000,000 of us; Second, his acts were eggregious enough to require exposure and debate. He skated on the edge of treason for two years. He met with the enemy. He is still honored by the butchers who killed so many Americans, and have since imposed totalitarianism on South Vietnam. This record has been ignored by the press. It needs to be examined. Even worse, he has, within the last year, affirmed his statements that he made back then – the ones accusing us of all sorts of nonse (the compendium above includes a link to the main speech).

There are a lot of Vietnam Vet organizations against Kerry. The one I work with, Vietnam Vets for the Truth ( kerrylied.com) is having a rally in DC on September 12.

Something not well known is that there are over 250 Swift Boat Vietnam Vets in Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. I have no doubt that the Swifties are doing what they are doing out of a feeling of duty and a desire for redress. They feel that the public should know what they know about the Kerry of Vietnam, and they want Kerry’s charges that he made as an anti-war activist to be refuted. I have spoken to several of these folks, including O’Neil, and their purpose is clear as are their feelings. These guys are doing it as a matter of honor.

Contrary to reporting, one crewman of Kerry’s is with the SBVT. The members of SBVT don’t know why those supporting Kerry do so. They are baffled. I have heard of a trip to France last year for them, but I don’t put that as a very high probability.

I suspect the reasoning here about the Green Beret rescued by Kerry is correct.

If you are in the DC area, you can meet Tony Snesko, a Swiftie, near the Vietnam Memorial on many days, where he mans a home made information stand about Kerry.

The Swifties first attempt was their press conference on May 5 of this year. It was buried by the MSM, and Kerry provided smears of the group were included, without questioning, in the little stories that got out. AP, NBC and ABC spiked the story. CBS produced an astoundingly dishonest and negative report. here is a story from the inside of the press conference. here is my analysis of the coverage. By the way, Kerry spent about 45 minutes on the phone with the founder of the group, Admiral Hofmann, trying to change his mind.

After the press conference fiaso, John O’Neil and Jerry Corsi decided to write a book, the third chapter of which Roger just sampled. The book covers both the Vietnam history and Kerry’s anti-war behavior. There are a lot of Kerry negatives in this are – see this collection on my blog.

Oddly, Dick Morris tonight said that this ad was dumb and dangerous, and wouldn’t get Bush a single vote. After this ad and the book, if he gets 10% of the veteran vote I would be surprised.

Aug 5, 2004 - 11:02 pm 39. Fresh Air:

The brilliance of the ad’s timing is breathtaking. According to Amazon, the book will not start shipping until August 15. Right now, we don’t actually have any substantiated allegations; all the evidence is presumably forthcoming in the book.

Thus we will have at least a week of Kerry’s defenders taking more and more rope, defending the indefensible, making ad hominem attacks, smears, the whole bit, then……WHAM! The goods are released when the book hits the market. Based upon the teaser on Amazon, the new stuff in there is going to really floor people. This book is going to spill evidence like a prosecutor’s pinata.

Also bear in mind that O’Neill’s publisher, Regnery, is a major house. Major houses do not screw around with half-assed, unverified stories as a rule–particularly when the subject is the Democratic nominee for president. This thing will have been fact-checked to death. I would look for much cross-verification of sources, including statements Kerry has made to reporters and in testimony over the years. The Kerry campaign will be spending another week just trying to sort through all the new allegations. August is not going to be a pleasant month for the Thinnest-Skinned U.S. Presidential Candidate in History.

That said, Lapsed Randian may have a point. Bush should make nice-nice with McCain even if McCain is wrong (he probably is). Bush can score points and look like a statesman. He doesn’t have to trash the Swifties in doing so, either. I’m sure Rove can think of something–or maybe make it Peggy Noonan’s first new assignment.

Aug 5, 2004 - 11:15 pm 40. Katherine:

I wonder what value Dick Morris provides for anybody. As far as I remember, his predictions are approaching the record of being all wrong all the time.

Aug 5, 2004 - 11:35 pm 41. Lapsed Randian 2:

I don’t mean to suggest a conciliatory gesture as only a tactical move. I really think it would be the right thing to do. I’ve said this before: it is not the Viet Cong who are presently trying to kill us.

Aug 5, 2004 - 11:48 pm 42. Fresh Air:

Lapsed–

I agree a gesture of some sort is warranted IF modern presidential candidates held themselves to a gentleman’s standard of conduct. OTOH, given the sh-tstorm Bush has been hit with by the pro-Kerry 527’s, I’m not sure I would blame him if he didn’t bother.

Yet another example of why McCain’s campaign finance reform bill never should have been enacted.

Aug 5, 2004 - 11:55 pm 43. Katherine:

ìYet another example of why McCain’s campaign finance reform bill never should have been enacted.î

Yes, and the Big Man signed it, just to neutralize Dashle, hoping that the Supremes would ìmake it rightî. Thatís one big game that our poker player did not win.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:06 am 44. Sam Barnes:

My HTML skills are non-existent (sorry), but there is a CNN article on this story. Can someone grab the link? Thanks.

Anyway, at the very end, it has McClellan’s response to questions from the press. To paraphrase, he says, “Of course we condemn this ad. It was produced with evil unregulated money. Won’t Senator Kerry join us in condemning ads made with unregulated (527) money?”

Of course, that would mean condemning MoveOn.org ads, ACT ads, etc., so Kerry may find that line of attack unpromising.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:04 am 45. RiverRat:

I’d advise you all to take the time to visit our bulletin board at http://www.swiftvets.com. You’ll find a thriving community discussing the topic and some valuable info collected no where else.

I’m Known as ASPB over there!

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:01 am 46. Catherine:

Haven’t had time to read the whole thread, but I don’t think the only value to these vets coming forward lies in the independents.

I suspect that, from the Republicans’ point of view, there is a significant “keep the vote home” factor, too.

I did not vote in the 2000 election, because I developed an aversion to Al Gore’s character after the famous crotch-stuffing photo shoot for ROLLING STONE.

I’m serious.

That was the moment.

I didn’t vote for Bush, but I didn’t vote for Al Gore, either.

If I’d been living in a Red State that would have been serious. (I did vote, btw; I just didn’t vote for a presidential candidate.)

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:11 am 47. Catherine:

I’m with John Moore on this. All the way.

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:13 am 48. DennisThePeasant:

J.R. and Richard-

Given what happened yesterday, I think the only song the Kerry campaign will need for August will be Low Spark of High Heeled Boys.

All-

I went to the local Japanese restuarant with my best bud last night for squishy fish. We sat at the relatively crowded sushi bar. In the course of our meal we started talking about the Swift Boat ad, and WHAMMO!, half a dozen unsolicited comments came flying in front both the other bar denizens and the sushi chef. They had all heard about it. It seems this is making the rounds very quickly.

Just because the MSM doesn’t cover it doesn’t mean it won’t have an impact. Remember Jesse Jackson and Shakedown? The MSM wouldn’t touch the book, author or issue, but it was a best seller and at least in my local library, it was one of the most read books the year it came out. And, it is no accident that Jackson as since devolved into little more than an embarrassing anachronism amongst his ’supporters’.

The more I see about the Swift Boaters’ book, the more I am inclined to think this story is going to have serious legs. The initial reaction we are seeing out of the Kerry/DNC camp appears to be the product of panic rather than thoughtfulness, and it could very well contribute a fan to the flames. It is one thing to try to discredit fellow political operatives, but quite another to discredit a bunch of veterans. If Kerry/DNC handle this hamfistedly, we could see a backlash based on that alone.

And finally, I have one simple question: Why are the Kerry people and the DNC acting so surprised about this? Didn’t any of them watch the initial press conference held by O’Neill and the Swift Boaters? I watched it on C-SPAN and it was quite evident then that (a) these guys were out for blood, and (b) they were not going to be intimidated. Wouldn’t you think someone out there would have turned to Kerry or McAuliffe and said “Hey, we need to be ready for these guys.”?

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:40 am 49. Lola:

River Rat:

I’d love to visit swiftvets.com but it seems to be hammered by hits from curious folks.

Knucklehead:

I just checked the Iowa Market and in Winner Take All, it looks like Bush is going down while Kerry is going up. Odd. It did get a bit of a mention in Newsweek. So I’m wondering if it’s been spiked by some folks with deep pockets. Before the issue came out, Bush had been going up while Kerry was going down.

Aug 6, 2004 - 5:49 am 50. Knucklehead:

Lola,

If one goes out and pokes around at opensecrets and publicintegrity it becomes painfully clear VERY quickly that there are some incredibly deep pockets aligned with leftist and ABB. I don’t think those two things are precisely the same but the overlap, the union of the sets, is so high that they are very nearly equivalent in a functional sense.

If there are Zillionaire Moonbats willing to send millions of dollars to MoveOn and other pure ABB efforts it would not surprise me in the least if some of that money, or other money from the same sources, is being used to move the Iowa market kinda stuff.

I am pretty convinced, just from talking to my family over the past few hours, that there is another factor at work here. At this point in time the whole flareup of the Swiftvets stuff seems like meanspirited attack dog stuff from the Bush campaign to those who are not political junkies. They do not understand the depths of the issues. It can be explained to them and they can be swayed at least to the point of thinking they need to have a deeper look – to find out if, in fact, Kerry is a lowlife wierdo and the Swiftvets have very serious points to make (or vice-versa).

So Bush is going to take a hit in the short term from this story. The general public just sees all this as “more of the same ugly politics”. If the MSM and the Dems can hold this story off from deeper investigation for eighty more days this will work in Kerry’s favor. Now that it is out it has to be pushed and it has to have substance and significant levels of truth behind it. But even truthful substance won’t matter if it is allowed to be positioned as sour grapes and rabid attacks against a “guy who went whether he’s the hero he claims to be or not” rather than “there’s something deeply disturbing about this looney-toons running for president”.

It will be interesting to watch.

BTW, I suspect that Michael Moore and the sorts of wide ranging attacks put out by the MoveOn and other ABB attackbots do NOT ever become associated in people’s minds with the Dem attack machine but that any and all attacks against Dems are instantly associated with the Republican attack machine. The “Republicans are mean-spirited” meme that has been so relentlessly trumpetted for so long is deeply effective – it is a standard part of “public awareness” or CW or whatever one wants to call it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:07 am 51. Knucklehead:

Another thing at work here is that the non-political junkies segment of the population really has no idea what we got passed off on us as “Campaign Finance Reform”. They have no clue that 527s exist or any of that. The fact that Zillionaire Moonbats and LLL Popstars are pouring Big Bucks into the money buys influence and can be used to sway public perception is not known to them. The general public knows that Daddy Warbucks is alive and well but they do not know that he went Moonbat Leftist a long time ago.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:14 am 52. Lola:

Well, it looks like one of the SwiftVets has retracted his statement:

Swift Boat Ad

Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ”time pressure” from those involved in the book. ”That’s no excuse,” Elliott said. ”I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.”

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:22 am 53. Mike:

When I think of Kerry’s three purple hearts, I’m continually drawn back to the scene from the Spielberg miniseries ” Band of Brothers,” when the grievously throat-wounded Private Blyth is laying in hospital. A visiting high ranking officer goes from bed to bed, handing out Purple Hearts. The medal being pinned to Blyth’s pillow doesn’t even register on the shell shocked, traumatized private (He eventually dies from his wounds). Two lightly wounded, obviously malingering jokesters in the adjacent beds make light of their additions to their collections (one lifts up his pillow to show the other the 2 purple hearts already awarded). Then they look at Blyth and feel somewhat guilty over their levity.

Kerry is the guy with the purple hearts under his pillow, minus the guilty conscience.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:36 am 54. PeterArgus:

Lola:

Elliott was one of the swiftees who defended Kerry against charges of war crimes in 96. Odd coincidence but we should take it at face value.

Lapsed Randian 2:

This retraction is all the more reason that you are essentially right. Bush needs to stay as far away from this as possible – look forward and stay focused on WOT. Let this play out in the media whichever way it will.

All:

Three different swift officers were interviewed on CNN, Levin’s show, and Hannity & Colmes, respectively, yesterday disputing Kerry’s bronze star. Two of them told essentially the same story. The vet on Hannity & Colmes never actually got to his story because Susan Estrich (filling in for the rather more reserved Colmes) kept the focus on the DNC talking points – you weren’t actually “on the boat” were you and isn’t it true the doc who says he treated Kerry’s wound wasn’t the one who signed the record.

Look, a serious investigation by journalists ought to be able to clear this up one way or the other. After all the charges made are pretty damn specific and can be disproven. If the media doesn’t do its job then there is only one conclusion – the swifties are telling the truth.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:40 am 55. Rick Ballard:

Lola,

The Boston Globe article does a good job of muddying the water concerning Elliot but never quite gets to the point of asking him whether he stands by his statement in the actual ad. “It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I’m the one in trouble here.” refers to whether or not Kerry shot the VC kid in the back. Does improper wording of the affidavit invalidate the ad?

BTW – This is precisely the theme that the MSM will follow and I will believe them when I read a statement that says “I was absolutley wrong and now support John Kerry”. Ain’t gonna happen.

Talking to reporters will generate a lot of this type of drivel over the next few days. You’ll never see anything but pull quotes in support of the journo’s initial thesis. Elliot might want to reword the affidavit and resubmit it. If “in the back” was the big deal to him, then a quick line through should fix it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:54 am 56. Kevin P:

DTP:

This story will have legs but only in the blogosphere. The MSM will not only ignore the guts of the story but they will slime Bush with the “republican atttack machine”meme. This weekend John McCain will be on every Sunday pundit show and will get more mug time then the swift boat veterans themselves. The only pressing the MSM will do is to go after Bush until he condemns the book. Kerry will play the victim, McCain will play his defense attorney, Bush will be portrayed as the rapist.This is as predictable as a Steven Segal script.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:05 am 57. Lola:

So what will it take to get MSM to drop their phony act?

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:35 am 58. richard mcenroe:

“On to contemporary matters?” Roger, this is a contemporary matter. As Shakespeare wrote, “What is past is prologue.” This is the man who is running for President today; this is the moment in his life he has chosen to define himself by. And he has chosen to defend himself not by confronting the allegations, by providing the documentation in his possession, but by threatening legal action against third parties. I find that telling.

As for Hoffman’s retraction, I notice he recants the wording, but never addresses whether Kerry actually did warrant the Star. Certainly the facts of the case, in the context of other Silver Star awards, suggest he didn’t, and the fact thatKerry was his own recommending commanding officer further taints the matter.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:41 am 59. Rick Ballard:

richard,

Elliot – not Hoffman. Hoffman will recant nothing. Hoffman’s not even mentioned.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:46 am 60. M. Simon:

Lapsed Randian 2,

I don’t think it matters.

We haven’t even gotten to tthe political heart of the matter. Winter Soldier.

This is an opening salvo on a well defended section of the line to draw the reserves. As long as Kerry keeps his records sealed the story can’t do him much damage. But it weakens him and draws him out of position.

Next is Winter Soldier/Dewey Canyon. The important (political) parts are all public record.

Lileks sees this as an isolated attack. He is mistaken. It is part of a campaign.

They have already gotten one of Kerry’s senior officers to say that maybe Kerry didn’t shoot any one in the back. In Winter Soldier he admits to unspecified war crimes and witnessing others. (If I remember correctly). They are twisting this guy in the wind.

So either Kerry is a war criminal or a liar.

The Bush campaign ought to remain silent. Especially if the info is true.

You can fork Kerry. He is done.

The last battle of the Vietnam War. The Vets are finally going to get even the left’s (most of it) respect back when we are done with Kerry’s lies.

I never thought I’d live to see the day. Thak God Kerry won the nomination.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:46 am 61. richard mcenroe:

Rick ó Thank you for the correction. My bad.

One other thing I liked in the Boston Globe article was the line, “It is unclear whether the work contains further justification for the assertion, beyond Elliott’s statement.” Nice to see the Globe, home of the Abu Ghraid erotic photo spread, being worried about someone’s research…

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:02 am 62. M. Simon:

Kevin P,

MSM has to cover this. The book is #1 on Amazon and it isn’t even out. #1. You know people are talking.

This is too big to cover up.

And then the Dems are tryin to cover it up. Well occasionally even old whores have a shred of self respect and dignity. Kerry only owns them as long as he doesn’t ACT like he owns them.

The threat will back fire.

He has just destroyed one of his major alliances.

Fool.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:02 am 63. RogerA:

Re Ric Locke’s comments about war stories. There is an old joke among soldiers that goes something like this. What is the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? Ans: a fairy tale starts “once upon a time…” A war story starts “this is no s***….” In my experience, those who have seen combat very seldom talk about it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:02 am 64. shell:

Riverrat, how do you get to the bulletin boards on Swiftvets.com ? I can’t seem to get past the ad.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:05 am 65. M. Simon:

Re: Elliot

Let me see if I get this straight.

The guy supports Kerry in ‘96. When interviewed for the book he changes his mind. Signs an ad. Based on issues he reviewed in ‘96 and subsequent.

Then changes his mind again.

Ladies and gentlemen. This is odd behavior. Very odd.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:07 am 66. jerry:

Mike:

As an ìoffshoreî observer of the war (ìU-boatî) and politics (below ground level in the pentagon) I have to dismiss your hopes as wishful thinking. Vietnam is 30 years ago except when it isnít. Kerryís Vietnam meme for this election is I was hero as a JO so I am qualified to be Commander in Chief. When Vietnam issues are raised, like Clintonís draft evasion, its old history. The truth most likely lies mid point in the interval between the Swities and the Hero-sailor end points.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:08 am 67. so it begins:

M. Simon,

Its not just “odd behavior”. This has “troll” written all over it. His excuse of why he signed it is extremely weak. There is little doubt that this is how the Kerry camp planned on dealing with this group from the beginning. They certainly were not blindsided by the Swiftvets so they had to come up with some way to deal with it. Funny how this guy chooses the same day the ad is released to retract his statements. Actually, its not funny at all, but very percisely planned.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:14 am 68. M. Simon:

So this whole thing is now jinned up to the point where people are discusing whether Kerry actually shot some one in the back. I’d rather be thinking about Clinton and Monica. That was a class act compared to shooting people in the back.

This is unraveling faster than I ever thought possible.

I’d have to look it up, but wasn’t it Kerry who wrote up the report reccomending himself for the medal?

Was he lying on that too?

jeeze.

And we haven’t even got to Winter Soldier.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:17 am 69. Syl:

shell

Swiftvets forum”

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:19 am 70. M. Simon:

so it begins,

I saw this about an hour ago and thought it strange.

If I get it that quickly there will be others.

This is like Clinton/Monica. Yes the press has a preference. But there is blood in the water. Reason is no longer fully in control.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:21 am 71. M. Simon:

jerry,

Winter Soldier is going to move the ball towards the swifties goal.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:42 am 72. so it begins:

btw, for those of you who think the Prez should come out and “distance” himself from this group I would not hold your breath. Rove is probably giving him some of the same sort of advise, but remember, these guys were betrayed by Kerry, who wants to be President. Bush may not even be very happy with the fact he has to deal with this issue right now, but he is NOT going to turn his back on these guys now. He is going to let them do what they need to do for closure – even if it is at his expense. He knows what happened and he knows how the honor of those who served in Vietnam was stolen by the LIES Kerry and his cohorts spewed. This President will not pull the rug out from under them because he knows this is not about him and Kerry – this is a personal matter between the Swiftvets and Kerry. It just so happens that the Swiftvets waited very patiently and chose the biggest stage in the World to land their knockout punch.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:46 am 73. Knucklehead:

I think we’re going to need to watch this play out as if we’re on jury duty. We have charges of a series of “crimes” and prosecution, defense, and witnesses.

The prosecution will make the case that the defendant is guilty of all the crimes and the defense will try to get at “not guilty” for as many of the charges as possible. We’ve heard the opening arguments and seen the defense cross on witness and seems to have scored some points against that testimony relative to one of the charges. Lots of witnesses and crosses left to go.

And keep in mind the defense does not need to prove innocence. Not guilty is all they need, but they need to get that for enough of the charges to salvage their client’s campaign. That still seems a tall order to me provided we don’t run up against jury nullification.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:51 am 74. M. Simon:

so it begins,

Right on about the prez.

Distance would only make sense if the attack was false or ill conceived.

The Useful Fool is Right. It is Mano A Mano between Kerry and 3,000,000 vets.

Enough to move an election.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:51 am 75. chuck:

In my experience, those who have seen combat very seldom talk about it.

Not strictly true. The fellow I know who saw the most intense combat talked about it obsessively for about ten years before the stories petered out. Gruesome and bizarre stuff, but not self heroising like Kerry. On the other hand, there were certainly veterans who talked very little. There were a lot of veterans around here in the 70’s, from Green Berets to ordinary draftees and I got to know a fair number. Not everyone deals the same way with combat.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:01 am 76. Fresh Air:

All–

I urge you to read the sample chapter Roger linked above. No registration is required, only an e-mail address. It would appear every citation Kerry received is in question, and there are multiple accounts from various eyewitnesses in each case.

I am inclined to believe the ad is a shot across the bow. The real attack is in the book. Whether the media will have the stomach for the nitty-gritty in there is another matter.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:08 am 77. J_Crater:

That retraction needs to be read carefully.

He now says some of the information relating to the Silver Star was never given to him, so he wasn’t sure exactly what happened in that regard, when he signed the affidavid.

This is a partial victory in Kerry’s favor, but it doesn’t render vindication by any means.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:12 am 78. Kevin P:

M. Simon:

The MSM will cover the story but only from the angle that this is a smear tactic . They won’t investigate the paticulars of the swift boat vets claims, they will only dig into their funding. Check out this mornings LA Times editorial and news coverage if you want to see how it will be covered. Before their reporters have looked into the paticulars of the SBV claims they have already declared that”It’s Not All Fair Game”. Kinsley states that the media can go after his post vietnam political actions and other items about Kerry’s record as fair game but his 4 months are not fair game for scrutiny,Everything is “Fair Game” “BUT his war record is not “. Compare this passive response to the aggressive coverage of the AWOL rumour. The dye is cast. Their will be no rewrites of the script.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:12 am 79. Fresh Air:

Regarding prez futures: Payroll data shows weak job growth (at odds with the Household Survey, BTW). I suspect the ability to keep demonstrating economic growth is viewed as far more important than the SBV stuff & could account for Bush downturn. Look for a major upward revision on the August data, however.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:13 am 80. jerry:

Chuck:

Are you sure he actually saw combat. Have any independent validation? I am not saying that someone who has been at war wouldn’t talk about it. Its just when they do, its usually only to the members of the club.

The only time any of my uncles talked about their WWII experiences is when one of them came to town when my mother was dying. He made a brief allusion to bodies stacked on either side of the exit off of Omaha beach after the it had been secured. That’s it. Nada, nothing else ever. \

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:18 am 81. Xixi:

I’m glad this story is out now. I’ve pre-ordered the book as have thousands of others. When I came back from Vietnam, I was called a “baby killer” by people who had read Kerry’s testimony before Congress. To me it is wrong for Kerry to present himself as a war hero now after he contributed to that slander all those years ago. I would crawl through frozen mud in November to vote against Kerry.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:33 am 82. Knucklehead:

Chuck,

Just overheard some commentary passing on the wind…

“This sounds like a bunch of whacked out Veitnam vets with an axe to grind.” “I don’t know, the ones I saw on the news last night don’t seem like the tattoos and Harleys crowd to me.”

I just did a quick scan of the dusty old memory banks for some Veitnam Vets I’ve known and the return data is pretty much:

“Hey, I was on an aircraft carrier. I didn’t see the war, I saw the jets taking off and landing and kept the radars working.”

“By the time I got there the Marines weren’t doing much of the fighting anymore. I was in supply in the rear. The worst thing that ever happened to me was walking guard duty and locking and loading on a noise that turned out to be rat just as the officer of the guard was driving up. Pulling my one magazine with a stinking five rounds in it for no reason was a court martial offense and I almost dropped the damn thing shoving it back in the pouch.”

“I was with… at… in ‘67-’68. It was hell [that's all folks].”

And a couple guys who seemed nuts to me and were forever mentioning they were in Vietnam but never got specific. I suppose they really were there but it seemed like they wanted attention or to be taken for nuts more than anything else.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:38 am 83. hollywood:

Knucklehead,

This note’s for you. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/05/opinion/05bruce.html

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:50 am 84. RogerA:

Knuck: thats because what you saw in Viet Nam depended on where you where in country, with what service, and what phase of the war you were in. The large multi-battalion operations of the mid 1960s gave way to smaller security style operations in the late 60s following tet. Every now and then a SF camp got besieged, but for the most part things had calmed down for most soldiers–until the cambodian incursion in the 1970s–but that was short-lived. There were occasional firefights but not of the scale of the mid 1960s. I was there 1969-1970 with the 69th armor battalion of the 4th infantry division and saw three significant firefights in six months.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:50 am 85. jerry:

Roger A:

For the edification of some our readers would you be willing to rate the “quality” of your three significant fire fights with the kind of actions fought by WWII infantrymen in Normany, the Siegfried line, the Ardennes, Gustav line in Italy and say the liberation of Manila? Scale of 1 to 10 would be fine.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:57 am 86. M. Simon:

Kevin P,

Spin carries only so far.

But the media is right!!

His 1971 testimony is fair game. (Wow, we got that on the record? See how useful this attack is already? Like Doolittle’s raid not much damage but it pulled the Japs out of position for Midway)

So now they admit Winter Soldier and Dewey Canyon are fair game.

Woooooooo Hoooooooooooo.

See this is not just an isolated battle. It is the opening stroke of a campaign. Brilliant.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:04 am 87. Pionar:

Someone said: The credibilty of these vets is clearly supported by their lack of motive to lie, their age, their occupations, the clarity of their memories, and their respectable demeanor as seen in the ad.

Lack of motive to lie? Politics is a good enough reason to me. Age and occupations has nothing to do with it. Every age group and profession has crooks and liars. Not saying these guys are, just saying don’t use that criteria to base your opinions on.

As far as clarity of memory, have you ever heard of the fog of war? It makes you see things that aren’t there and remember things that aren’t there. Plus, when interviewers are biased, they can easily “massage” the memory of people into what they want it to be. Remember the “repressed memory” baloney where a person would be convinced that they were molested or abused as a child? One has already retracted his statements. More are sure to follow.

It’s funny to me that Republicans jumped all over John Kerry for using his Viet Nam experiences for politics (I agree with that, it was distasteful at best), yet when these jokers do it, it’s all fine and peachy.

And as far as selective memory goes, Ronald Reagan had a bit of a problem separating his life from movie roles.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:11 am 88. doublecola:

Taking another look at the ad, it implies that these people saw Kerry in action, and are saying “You don’t know what we know–we were there.” But a great part of the reaction in the ad focuses only on what Kerry said before the senate upon his return from Viet Nam. I can understand vets feeling betrayed by that, and not wanting Kerry to be President. However, the ad implies much different. It’s misleading at best.

More:

George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ”terrible mistake” in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star.

Louis Letson was not the Dr. on record as treating Kerry.

Some of the same officers now criticizing Kerry had written very positive evaluations of him as an officer in Viet Nam.

Let’s not forget how the Bush team went after McCain in the last election.

Interesting to note, too, how many people say they remember Kerry in Vietnam, but not one person can stand up and say they remember Bush in the National Guard during the time period in question.

I still think It’s interesting the Swift Boat ad attacking Kerry is launched about the same time as O’Neill’s book is released. O’Neill being the Spokesperson for the SwiftBoat Vets should make a lot of money from this. Making money is, of course, just fine…but the timing and the marketing is pretty interesting.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:13 am 89. so it begins:

oh poor Pionar – it must be very, very disheartening to finally see what your candidate’s betrayal has bought him. Bummer for him and you.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:19 am 90. JK Ribera:

I just wanted to wrfite that I have just read the full chapter available on line. I must say there are a huge number of allegations against Kerry which seem, repet seem, to be corroborated. These must be investigated. Even though I am a Democrat, I find comments like doublecola’s above completely irrelevant. They do not speak to the facts. Obviously these accusations are not being made by Kerry supporters. Everyone knows that. But that does not make them wrong. Everyone should know that too.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:21 am 91. so it begins:

misleading at best? Ha. Yeah, we saw that letter from the DNC yesterday. It was already torn apart. Nice try though, but you’re a little late. You should all try rethinking your strategy on this one at the DNC/DU and come back with some better arguements. We’ll be waiting…

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:23 am 92. jerry:

DC:

There you again citing “favorable” text after being warned by a former naval officer that the text is meaningless without the ranking.

You also say “but not one person can stand up and say they remember Bush in the National Guard during the time period in question.” which is factually false since a number of people have come forward to say he was there. The use of this disproven charge shows everybody here that you are troll not an honest participant.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:23 am 93. John Lynch:

doublecola

Yes the timing is interesting. Yes it is “coming after” Kerry.

In case it is not clear: This is a planned series of moves specifically going after Kerry.

From the number of them, the stories they have to tell, and their previous attempts to get their stories out – it is a justified attack on someone they feel is not suitable to be CIC.

This is between the Vets and Kerry. PR, Ads, Books, who knows – maybe even a mockumentary, all of it because they feel they have something to say, have the right to say it, and many of the rest of us want to see how this plays out.

From reading the chapter of the book, Kerry has a lot to answer for. And not just from his four months in-theater.

I hope they don’t have too many more idiots like Elliot on their side.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:30 am 94. PeterArgus:

Double Cola and Pionar:

This is not an RNC-funded site here. I for one could care less what the Bushies did in the past. I am just trying to sort through the facts at hand. Any serious observer would conclude they are troubling. There are alot of questions that need to be answered, not by misdirection and threats, but by careful investigation. Personally I would prefer that Kerry’s record was as he and his crewmates say. I think it does the country no good in the long run to have a “barroom blowhard”, as Roger put it, as a Pres. candidate or, God forbid, President. (This leaves aside the disturbing issue of whether he is a war criminal as he already admitted years ago when his memory was not “repressed” as it appears to be now along with the entire Democratic Party).

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:31 am 95. thedragonflies:

To me, this whole thing just shows me how inept Kerry is. He knew these guys were out there claiming he was a fraud. So why did he put this Viet Nam experience at the center of his campaign? I guess because he has nothing else to point to that can qualify as an achievement. What made this guy think he should be president? Why did the Dems vote for him?

This is his first big crisis. Letís see how he responds to it. Threatening lawsuits is all he is doing so far. Kinda revealing, no? I think he is planning on suing Osama if he is elected.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:31 am 96. Fresh Air:

Doublecola–

Letson treated Kerry, though he didn’t write the injury up. Read the whole thing (it’s in the free chapter).

Pionar–

The trouble with your comment is that this stuff is not coming from the Republican party or its candidate. It’s coming from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. I didn’t hear any complaints from the DNC when moveon.org was pillorying Bush. I think the 527s were a stupid creation of McCain’s CFR. But this is sauce for the gander, too. Wouldn’t you agree?

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:32 am 97. doublecola:

Jerry,

Who came forward? I know that people said he served in the national guard, but that’s not in dispute. The time period where he may have been AWOL is.

As far as I know not one person has claimed the reward offered by a group of former Alabama guardsmen to anyone who could remember serving with Lt. George Bush during the time period in question.

DC

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:33 am 98. Knucklehead:

RogerA,

I believe I understand your point. Big war over many years with drastic changes in how it was fought and various services. There is no overall uniformity in the experience of Vietnam vets any more than there is uniformity in the experiences of veterans from any large war. Someone working the docks at Pearl in ‘44 would have a very different experience than someone maintaining bombers in England in ‘44.

Interestingly enough the background scan of data banks for vets I’ve known just returned one of the more interesting. I worked with this guy closely about 20 years ago for several years. He was retired navy – a demolition and salvage diver (the big helmet and hoses and Diver Dan stuff). He didn’t have direct firefight combat experience but he was one of the most thoughtful and knowledgable people I knew back then so I asked him why it seemed that so many Vietnam vets seemed to be borderline nutcases. Was it just media hype or the lousy treatment when they came back or was the war more terrible than other wars or were we more a nation of wussies more prone to getting whacky from war experience and so on.

I have no way to know if his assessment was accurate but I found it interesting and very plausible. And he dismissed all of the standard explanations as potential primary causes.

Basically his explanation was that we made the war too much like a “job” for the guys fighting it. Guys would fight for relatively short duration (with varying degrees of intensity that wasn’t atypical of any other war) and otherwise lived relatively comfortably with pretty good levels of safety. Sorta fight by day and then hang out and drink beers and smoke and joke with the guys at night.

According to him the reason fewer combat troops developed mental problems in other wars was because they became immersed in being in the life of being at war. Even when they weren’t actually fighting they lived in such lousy conditions that they mentally stayed “at war” so to speak. But in Vietnam guys would fight and “go home” (”home”, in this case, being someplace adequately comfy and safe with amusements and diversions) and fight and “go home” and the mental back and forth was more difficult and more likely to warp the mind.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:35 am 99. TmjUtah:

I don’t have much to add here.

One note that has not been touched on around here lately is that Bush has won political contests primarily defining policies and forcing the opposition to run on their record.

Kerry has been shielded from the tiny matter of his Senate voting record by the media. There’s an awful lot of having one’s cake and eating it too going on with the Dem campaign; without the wilfull and conscious bias of media he’d evaporate.

If the big prize is undecided voters I don’t think that Kerry is going to get much help there. The sheer volume of crap targetted at the wall has a political cost all by itself regardless of what just splatters and what sticks…especially when the most damning accusations have been rather soundly revealed as wishful thinking or outright lies on the part of the opposition.

You cannot win by character assassination if you can’t offer anything as a believable alternative. It’s just not going to happen.

I think the swiftvets are honest. The fact that Kerry elected to threaten legal action against them right out of the gate is a signal that whatever opposition research they compiled in preparation for these charges to finally receive media attention, they don’t have a rebuttal they think will work. That sitting Dem congresscritters are already signed up as wanting to quash this organization is flat stupid; who was screaming “CENSORSHIP!!!” last week, last month, last year when the Dixie Chicks, Linda Rondstadt, and various other celebrities paid public gelt for their political expression?

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:35 am 100. M. Simon:

“Louis Letson was not the Dr. on record as treating Kerry. ”

How true. He was the nurse.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:36 am 101. jerry:

DC:

His pay and Dental records meet the criteria. Unless you believe that they are all part of the Bush family conspiracy to cover up the truth? Do you have your tinfoil hat on?

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:36 am 102. doublecola:

Peter,

Do we know if the SwiftVets are calling for an investigation by the Navy?

DC

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:37 am 103. doublecola:

Jerry,

In other words, no one came forward.

DC

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:42 am 104. PeterArgus:

DC:

They have asked Kerry to file a form 180 to allow public access to all of his records. Bush has released all of his records (even though he was not under investigation). Seems only fair that Kerry do the same. I am sure you like myself are hopeful, perhaps confident, such documents will clear some of this mess up.

We also have this important institution called a “free press”. My understanding of the “free press” is that they have a responsibility to “find the truth” where ever it leads – Woodward and Bernstein’s investigation of Watergate comes to mind.

Let’s get the facts out there and let the chips fall wherever.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:45 am 105. Charlie (Colorado):

Doublecola:

First off, there is no time in the disputed period at which Bush might have been AWOL, because he was ANG and the rules are different. (You can only be AWOL when you’re on active duty; Bush was National Guard, and simply obliged to do some number of service days per year.)

But, beyond that, Bill Hobbs has extensive coverage. Of particular interest might be this which describes Bush’s military dental records while he was in Alabama, and this which is a specific recollection of Bush doing duty days in Alabama.

It follow, ergo, that Bush has both documentation and recollections that he wasn’t “AWOL”. QED.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:47 am 106. doublecola:

Louis states that he was a Medical Officer.

other info cites him as the base physician.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:48 am 107. PeterArgus:

Y’all might want to take a look at this on Drudge right now. Link…

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:52 am 108. blogaddict:

Already the media spin begins: one swift boat guy with a sound bite, one Kerry-supporting swift boat guy with a rebuttal sound bite. That’s it; now move along.

I have no idea what legs this story will have. The MSM has two huge reasons to muffle it: firstly, they want Kerry to win; but secondly, this story is potentially huge not only because of this year’s election, but because it could lead to the heart of the Vietnam debate for this country: the evaluation of the Vietnam war itself. And in this evaluation, the MSM itself has been a major player–for over thirty years, they have pushed a particular “narrative” of the war, and that is that the war was an unmitigated disaster for all involved, and that the press and the liberals were instrumental in showing us the truth and leading us out of the quagmire.

For most people, the history of Vietnam has been set in cement for decades, and it goes like this: big mistake, shameful past, war crimes by the US. I, as a former MSM-imbibing Democrat, thought I knew about all of that. It’s only recently I learned there is another way to look at it. The whole swift boat/winter soldier controversy may reopen that particular dialogue in a different way than before, because Kerry’s candidacy and his intense emphasis on his Vietnam record makes it important again. I have no idea how it will actually play out. But part of the MSM’s motivation to bury the story is to hide the blood on its own hands.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:52 am 109. jerry:

knukclehead:

Jim Webb has worked hard to dispel the notion of the “crazy” Vietnam vet. He constantly points out the Vietnam veterans have had lower rates of “post traumatic stress disorder” then their WWII counterparts. WWII combat troops had more sustained and intense experience then Vietnam veterans. They did not receive medals for doing their job like Kerry did and they did not accept purple hearts for scratches.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:57 am 110. tsonic:

Senator Kerry is in a strategic pinch between Bush and Nader. His campaign brainstrust has basically dug a rhetorical spider-hole for him to hide in. In it, we are led to believe Kerry keeps his secret plans for the economy and foreign policy. So long as the SBVT hammers the service record issue, he ain’t coming out of that hole. Marginal advantage Bush, but bad for Nader. Nader would really benefit from pulling Kerry out of ground and forcing a stand on the issues important to liberals. Has a major network interviewed Nader to get his reaction to all this?

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:58 am 111. ambisinistral:

I just read the Chapter and I’m even more convinced this story has legs. The media may attempt the doublecola “strategy” of talking about anything but the substance of the charges, but that tactic won’t last long. Too many details. Besides, like somebody noted above, the narrative is already starting to spill over into his Winter Soldier problem.

With the scent of blood in the air, the press will gnaw on this bone I think.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:59 am 112. jerry:

Charile:

Once again DC shows his ignorance of the military.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:00 am 113. Rick Ballard:

Tmj,

I agree with your observations. This story is not going to be a decisive factor. I’d really rather read about what the price tag for the laundry list in the DNC platform would be. Just listening to Kerry try and explain how the platform would not double the national debt would be interesting.

Kerry’s campaign has not measured up to this relatively minor situation. Are they going to threaten to sue every time this shallow self-promoter is challenged? What will they do when the book is out? Threaten Amazon & Borders with a cease and desist order? What will they do when the Winter Soldier testimony is played? Sue Kerry for slandering himself?

Meanwhile, President Bush will be honing the message concerning his proposals and platform. Four or five items with defined objectives. He’ll set the debate topics and I’m confident that his proven ability to see things through will resonate with the electorate. He actually does have a record of accomplishment to talk about. Very unlike his opponent.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:01 am 114. doublecola:

Charlie,

Bill Hobbs is not a credible source.

I have been trying to get this clarified, but I can’t, as of yet, find another source to verify that Bush was not awol. If only those records didn’t go missing–then we’d know for sure.

DC

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:02 am 115. Knucklehead:

Doublecola:

Now that we’ve established that you will keep repeating the same points (some of them weren’t actually on Kerry’s boat – gee, only in close proximity during engagements, a Repbulican donated money, and the timing is suspicious) and continue to pretend that these have not been reponded to numerous times, perhaps you’d be kind enough to give us some insight into the defense we can expect for:

Christmas in Cambodia (Chapter 3, pages 17-20 re: apparently false claims, repeated throughout his career that he was in Cambodia) and

The Dinner That Never Happened (Chapter 3, pages 14-15 re: accusations of incompetence of officers during a “massacre”).

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:05 am 116. Rick Ballard:

DtP,

Need a little exercise? I know he’s a lightweight but you could go for a distance record.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:07 am 117. riverofpearls:

Hello Everyone

Thank you for allowing me to participate in this discussion. I am especially interested in this story and hoping it does not away. Let me catch up and see where you guys are going with this.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:10 am 118. M. Simon:

“Viet Vet Captain George Elliott describes an article appearing in todayís edition of the Boston Globe by Mike Kranish as extremely inaccurate and highly misstating his actual views. He reaffirms his statement in the current advertisement paid for by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Captain Elliott reaffirms his affidavit in support of that advertisement, and he reaffirms his request that he ad be played. ”

http://www.drudgereport.com

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:15 am 119. chuck:

Jerry,

Yep, I’m sure. As I say, he didn’t make a hero of himself, and wasn’t the blowhard type, but he was a talker. He was posted in one of those hilltop garrisons back in the mid/late sixties. Then again, there were veterans who just drifted off when something jogged their memory: ghosts.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:16 am 120. John Lynch:

Double

This is a discussion between the Vets. Kerry invited it by his very public, very well-funded recitations of his record in Vietnam. Now others who were there, in the same units, at the same time, seeing many of the same events, have stories to tell.

Kerry has so far withheld public release of his records. He probably won’t get away with that for long in this firestorm.

Let’s see how it plays out.

BTW, Bush’s records have been found and released by the Pentagon. It’s one of those stories that the press doesn’t play because it defuses and argument that they like to have repeated. Also, it was in the press some months ago about other people at President Bush’s stations of record seeing him there. Finally, AWOL isn?t possible for the type of duty he had. He just had service days. Please try not to repeat the same arguments when they are asked and answered.

Also, all, Double has us off subject, this is not about Bush.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:16 am 121. John Lynch:

Welcome River

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:19 am 122. Rick Ballard:

Roger,

Could you further update with the Drudge cite under your Globe update? I didn’t know Kranish was so closely linked to the Kedward’s campaign.

A decent newspaper might have noted it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:21 am 123. Pierre Legrand:

Uh Oh can the Kerry people ever get anything right? They were lying about Captain Elliot retracting his statement, I say Kerry people even though the article appears in the Boston Globe because the person who wrote this lying article was none other than the auther of John Kerry’s Official Campaign book. This will look ALOT worse now that they have AGAIN been caught lying. These people are apparently unaware of the power of the internet.

This sort of thing goes straight to Kerry’s qualifications to govern.

Pierre

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:21 am 124. so it begins:

All I can say about these latest developments is UNBELIEVABLE! Did Hillary know this guy’s potential or what? How they managed to get him nominated is beyond me, but they did it. It is now 1984 all over again.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:27 am 125. doublecola:

Knucklehead,

Some facts have to be dealt with–and yes, I’m repeating myself:

The swiftboatvet ad implies that these people saw Kerry in action, and are saying “You don’t know what we know–we were there.” But a great part of the ad regards only the reaction to what Kerry said before the senate upon his return from Viet Nam. I can understand vets feeling betrayed by that, and not wanting Kerry to be President. However, the ad implies much different. It’s misleading at best.

George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ”terrible mistake” in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star. If, in fact, he is again retracting what he said, then we can’t take anything he says seriously.

Louis Letson was not the Dr. on record as treating Kerry.

Some of the same officers now criticizing Kerry had written very positive evaluations of him as an officer in Viet Nam.

Don’t tell me evaluations mean nothing. If Kerry was, in fact, as bad as these people are saying, they had a duty and an obligation to recommend his removal, but no, instead they praised him!

Yes, for the record, I wish Kerry would release all military info.

This all needs to be addressed when evaluating the facts.

As I said on an earlier thread, I’m anxious for the truth to come out.

As to Christmas in Cambodia and

The Dinner That Never Happened, I’ll reserve comment until I’ve read the chapters and have conducted some research.

DC

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:30 am 126. M. Simon:

Posted by: blogaddict

” But part of the MSM’s motivation to bury the story is to hide the blood on its own hands.”

Yep.

There are going to be a lot of very sick puppies in America soon.

Kerry needs to be put on suicide watch.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:30 am 127. doublecola:

Remember, too, Elliot came to Boston during Kerry’s 1996 Senate campaign to defend Kerry. Elliot stated at the time that Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:35 am 128. Pierre Legrand:

doublecola

Are you serious? The only credibility that needs to be questioned is the Boston Globe for allowing someone who has a STAKE in John Kerry to write an article. As if he doesn’t have a massive motivation to lie. The Boston Globe author was sacrificed to try and put a damper on this terribly damaging book. The Kerry camp is praying that people will only remember the lie this Kerry Supporter wrote in the Boston Globe and not the truth as spoken by Elliot.

Kerry is very very scared of this book. Rightfully so since it goes to the core of his ability to be trusted and his leadership qualities.

Bush is a known. We have seen him fighting for our country, mistakes were made but if you ain’t making mistakes you ain’t trying hard enough. But NO ONE questions his honesty…Bob Woodward who I don’t think anyone would accuse of being part of the NEO CON Cabal said that what struck him the most about Bush was here was a man that was telling the truth.

Kerry is a flat out liar, who blames others and is the worst sort of person. The Democratic party is very sick right now. Any party that could diss Lieberman like they did is sick beyond repair. The Moonbats have taken control sadly.

Pierre

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:39 am 129. John Lynch:

DC

The ad covers both actions in Vietnam and actions afterwards. Nothing misleading about that, although there is a vagueness that requires that you follow the story – to the chapter that you haven’t taken the time to read.

The Boston Globe writer who stated that Elliot retracted has been caught in a lie. Elliot “Reaffirms” each of: his statement, he wouldn’t have recommended, and he didn’t deserve.” The writer is apparently also being paid by Kerry to write a book, while also being a Globe reporter. Hmmm. Net: The guy (Elliot) didn’t retract, then retract the retraction.

The doctor was one of two on scene, and the one who actually removed the shrapnel from his Kerry’s arm. He did not file a combat wound report. Another doctor did – not the one who treated him – after Letson refused to. Questions right there aren’t there?

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:42 am 130. M. Simon:

doublecola,

The praise Kerry got was from his time aboard the Riddly I think as leader of the deck division.

=========================================

Promotion and praise are sometimes used to get rid of an unsuitable officer without making waves.

This is not a bad way of dealing with an officer who is basically sound but unfit for the assigned duties.

Kerry might have been no ggod as a line officer but adequate or better as staff. At the time the military needed people so tolerating a Kerry who did well in one situation but not another might be acceptable.

But all this doesn’t matter.

It is just the opening.

Winter Soldier is the key.

There are a lot of us with a grudge against Kerry. Mainly because everything he told us in ‘71 was a lie. I’m sorry to say (I was sailing Tonkin Bay – I had no idea what was going on on the ground) I believed him. Why wouldan American lie to me? A vet. I helped that son of a bitch commit mass murder. It ain’t going to happen twice.

OK. Suppose Kerry was just mistaken. Suppose he was lied to just as much as me? Good thought. So where is the apology?

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:43 am 131. jerry:

folks:

DC is just going to repeat statements that are OBE. It’s probably time to disengage from discussing this issue with him. He will repeat one canard after another.

My last direct comment to the DC-man is this. If you notice, I have not really taken sides in this dispute over his record. My position is simply this. His medals are undeserved not because he didn’t see action but the action he saw was nothing more then his duty. Medals are for doing something above and beyond the call of duty. I don’t see anything in Kerry’s side of the story that merit anything more then what in the Navy is called a “Bravo Zulu”. Real heroes don’t brag about their prowess. They are secure enough not to need it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:50 am 132. doublecola:

Letson didn’t refuse to sign it.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:51 am 133. Fresh Air:

Doublecola–

You are dangerously close to troll territory. If you want to be taken seriously on this blog, please pay attention to what people are saying in response to your comments.

You cannot be AWOL in the National Guard unless you are on active duty. You have to drill a certain number of days per year to fulfill your service commitment. The Guard is nothing like the regular Army. Bush fulfilled his commitments and was honorably discharged. There is no there there. Moreover this a merely a red herring with no bearing as to what Kerry did or didn’t do.

Letson treated Kerry. He didn’t sign the paperwork, though. What’s your point? That he had to sign the paperwork in order to have eyes? Again, read the sample chapter; there is lots more to the story than what you have cited.

As John Moore put it an earlier thread, Elliot defended Kerry against atrocities in 1996 as a matter of honor. I don’t know what his recent affadavit says, but unless it directly contradicts what he said in ‘96, I’m not sure you have a point there, either.

Also, keep in mind you and the other Kerry defenders are boxing in the dark right now. The real charges have not yet been leveled. Wait until the book comes out.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:57 am 134. TmjUtah:

Slightly OT:

My uncle Gordon left Drake University during his third year of studies. He had been the commander of the Army ROTC unit for two years. His ROTC OIC called him to the office and said “Gordon, I’ve got good news and bad news. Which do you want first?”

“Well…the good, I guess.”

“You are a fine leader of cadets – an honors student, always on the deans list academically and a headliner in football and track. I understand I need to congratulate you on your engagement, too. You will undboubtedly be a fine leader of men wherever you go.”

“Yessir. The bad news….?”

“You are going to be fine leader of men about 90 days from now.”

Benning for shake and bake Officer School. Infantry training, then arrival as a fresh second lieutenant at the command of a replacement platoon inserted into the Pusan Perimeter. He mailed home the Army Colt .38 that belonged to his father during service in WW1 (medical corps – and the pistol is downstairs in my safe as I write this) after dumping an entire clip of carbine fire into a Manchurian and being pinned through the leg by the Chicom’s bayonet. He carried an M1 Garand or shotgun the rest of the war. He was the sole surviving officer in his company on three occasions, and wounded multiple times – once seriously enough to require hospitalization in Japan. He was roundly cursed by one of Chesty Puller’s battalion commanders after the linkup with the Inchon invasion group. In later years, that officer invited my uncle to their battalion reunions and honored him as an honorary Marine in recognition of his bravery and leadership on the field alongside his battalion. My uncle ended as a captain, serving as a company commander for a line infantry outfit and a weapons company, with his last billet as battalion operations officer.

I never saw his ribbons. The above list is the distillation of over twenty years of reminisces that he let slip as I grew up and after I left for the service. When I told him I was off to Korea, he recommended I check out a granite tablet set up in memory of U.S./R.O.K. troops who held a critical crossroads under inhuman pressure for four days on the outskirts of Pusan. He gave me a sealed letter before I left, to be opened when I found the monument. I did find the place – in 1950 it had been a postage stamp village at the edge of a plain. In 1985 it was a sprawling town. When I read the monument I couldn’t find my uncles battalion or company. I opened the letter and read “They ran out of room. The units on the roster were the ones that relieved. The ones that died in place aren’t there.”

Fighting for your country is duty. Lots of men have done it, and many have paid for it with their lives. Others have never recovered from the experience. Whoever has served or fought has changed in ways that those behind can never truly understand.

The most impressive men I’ve ever met never waste time on yesterday. They act, and accept judgement, for who they are and what they do today. They do not balance good and bad on a scale of expediency. They do not tailor their character to conform to their ambition.

John Kerry is unfit for public trust, much less high office.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:59 am 135. M. Simon:

DC is not just boxing in the dark. He is boxing himself in.

Myself I’m thinking “Home Alone” marbles.

This is going to hurt MSM very badly too. All lies all the time for 35 years.

The fog of war is finally beginning to lift.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:03 pm 136. Knucklehead:

Doublekoolaid:

…and yes, I’m repeating myself:

Whatever floats your PCF. Enjoy.

When my daughters were wee little things My Better Two Thirds insisted on speaking Swedish to them so that they would learn it. The first took this in stride and communicated with her mom in Swedish, English, or Svenglish according to the situation at hand.

The second, however, was a stubborn little cuss and inisted on speaking English only. Her mom would speak to her in Swedish and she would stubbornly answer in English. One evening while her mom was speaking to her in Swedish she sat bolt upright in her highchair, clamped her hands over her ears, and yelled, “I can’t hear you!”

I can’t imagine what brought that to mind, but there it is.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:04 pm 137. John Lynch:

Elliot’s affadavit

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:08 pm 138. John Lynch:

Knuck

I think I see a connection between the behavior of your second child and recent events.

All,

Well, it’s Friday, shaping up to be a good weekend, and the weather’s too nice to stay at the office.

I’m off for beer’s with my buds.

I’m sure politics will come up.

Have a great weekend!

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:17 pm 139. ambisinistral:

“As to Christmas in Cambodia and

The Dinner That Never Happened, I’ll reserve comment until I’ve read the chapters and have conducted some research.”

Well, that certainly makes you uniquely qualified to defend Kerry.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:17 pm 140. Knucklehead:

John Lynch:

My Youngest Darling remains a bit of stubborn cuss (can’t fathom where that trait came from) but she is also admirably pragmatic. For example, a few short years after the Battle of Highchair pass, while visiting the inlaws, she returned from a nearby playground speaking perfectly adequate Swedish in the local dialect. Her hearing was apparently restored through the miracle of child’s play.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:23 pm 141. Lola:

Yikes . . . now I’m going to have to buy the book . . . normally I don’t throw my money after the kiss-and-tell and flattery-works-best books covering the political person du jour. But this case seems serious enough and I have respect for military, active and retired, who are willing to put their reputation on the line.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:27 pm 142. John Lynch:

Well,

Maybe others that have exhibited that trait will someday “MoveOn.”

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:28 pm 143. doublecola:

ambisinistral,

I’ve always stated that I’ve been responding to the ad, not the book. I’ve been honest about what I’m responding to.

Now, let us wait for all the facts to come out–let’s listen, really listen to both sides. Then make our decision.

For the record, I’ve never said Kerry was innocent of the charges, I just had honest questions–still do. So, let’s see what happens.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:28 pm 144. Mike:

The Democrats’ hysterical crying of foul over this is typical hypocrisy. They were delighted over the media coverage of Fahrenheit 9/11. Prominent Dems like Daschle attended premieres, or went on the record to argue the accuracy and relevance of Moore’s accusations. Even when much of the movie’s core accusations were thoroughly discredited, the Democrat huckstering for Moore did not end.

Seems Kerry and his pals can dish it out, but can’t take it, and demand a double standard when they are on the receiving end. How Leftish of them.

The Democrats started this on two fronts, one being the Bush National Guard service, the other being Moore’s movie. We know Moore’s movie was dishonest. Looks like the National Guard AWOL attack is as well. Shouldn’t the SBVT be given the opportunity to have their accusations fairly tested in the MSM, rather than suppressed?

The Dems have fired, missed, reloaded and fired again and missed. Now they don’t want to let the other side have a gun.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:31 pm 145. Roberts:

Doublecola’s double standard in evidence is most amusing when you compare what evidence he demands from those criticizing Sen. Kerry with the evidence he needs to slander President Bush.

One could put the Grand Canyon into the gap between his two standards.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:34 pm 146. Charlie (Colorado):

DC:Bill Hobbs is not a credible source.

I have been trying to get this clarified, but I can’t, as of yet, find another source to verify that Bush was not awol.

DC, if you look at those stories, you may notice that there are several places where the text is in a different color. If you move your mouse cursor over them, it changes, usually into a sort of a hand shape. If you then click there, you get to go to a whole ‘nother story.

These are called “hyperlinks”. Experienced net users find them very convenient, escpecially when trying to confirm a Washington Post story Hobbs cited.

These citations, by the way, are also the clearest answer to whether Hobbs is a credible source or not, since he cites his own sources.

Of course, I suppose Hobbs might have spoofed the Post story, but if you insist I can explain to you how to confirm the address is really addressing the Washinton Post’s site.

You might also find some useful information in this FactCheck.org story, since the story Hobbs cited in the second post is now in pay-for content on Newsday.

If only those records didn’t go missing–then we’d know for sure.

Basically another sign that you don’t have much experience with the military: I think all of us that have military or DoD backgrounds could tell you horror stories about missing records.

Hey, I think military service is honorable. I didn’t say efficient.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:42 pm 147. riverofpearls:

Michael Kranish’s books

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/results.asp?userid=pT724wk9rx&ath=Michael+Kranish

Fair and balanced?

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:48 pm 148. Jamie Irons:

Pierre, you wrote:

“The Democratic party is very sick right now. Any party that could diss Lieberman like they did is sick beyond repair. The Moonbats have taken control sadly.”

Truer words were never spoken; I’m hoping the Dems get smashed in this election (and I am a Democrat) because the party has gone to hell.

Jamie Irons

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:48 pm 149. Kevin P:

Everyone:

Doublecola’s attempt to resurrect the AWOL charge is a classic example of how the MSM ability to deceive is so strong. They ran the old story from the 2000 election and justified their relentless coverage on the fact that some of the records were missing. Now that the records have come out and they show that President Bush COMPLETELY fullfilled his duty hours and that the honorable discharge that he got was justified by the facts he still tries to spin the same old baseless charges.The LA times reported that Bush was not AWOL but they did not run the story on the front page as they did the basesless accusations. Since I don’t know Doublecola I will give him the benifit of the doubt and assume he is just ignorant of the facts and has no idea how the military works but the media doesn’t get the same benifit because they know better.

I do not know if the swift boat veterans story is true or not. But a large chunk of the media is already saying that the story is not “Fair Game” before they have even reported the facts or before the book has come out. When the DNC floated the old AWOL slur they media didn’t say that Bush had received a honorable discharge and thats good enough for me. They went after the story like a dog in heat, demanded ALL of Bush’s records and would not let go till all the records were in. On the SBV story they are already saying the story is baseless before they even have investigated all the facts. They could even have a reporter look into the story to disproove it but they won’t even do that. The MSM is going to cover this as a process story and they won’t dig into to whether the story is true or false because the can’t handle the notion that it could be true and the have an agenda.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:51 pm 150. riverofpearls:

Why has the topic changed from the Swift boat story? I have been reading and in my opinion “doublecoke” is stirring the topic to President Bush’s military record instead of Kerry’s. A troll?

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:55 pm 151. Roberts:

Of course DC is a troll.

Meanwhile, Glenn Reynolds is pointing to this discussion of John Kerry’s past misrepresentations of his service record, but the gist – that Kerry has deliberately pretended to have been discharged from the Navy during the period he was secretly meeting with America’s enemies – has been noted before.

Kerry has no credibility on his own past.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:58 pm 152. riverofpearls:

Again on Fox like the Berger story this is beginning to be the story of the “reason for the story” instead of the story. And the news media is playing along.

Aug 6, 2004 - 12:59 pm 153. Fresh Air:

Guys, hold your fire. Doublecola has offered a truce:

Now, let us wait for all the facts to come out–let’s listen, really listen to both sides. Then make our decision.

For the record, I’ve never said Kerry was innocent of the charges, I just had honest questions–still do. So, let’s see what happens.

Please accept it and return to your regularly scheduled program already in progress…

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:00 pm 154. Fresh Air:

Sorry, the “For the record” sentence is DC’s too. Italics snafu.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:02 pm 155. PeterArgus:

DC:

As River suggested, back to 1st purple heart, Dr. Letson, and the topic at hand. On page 10 of chap 3 of Unfit to Command there is this:

“How he obtained the award [PH] is unknown…It is clear that here should be numerous other documents but only a treatment record reflecting a scratch and a certificate three months later has been produced.”

This means that Letson did the treating (Dec. 2) but what I presume is the medical certificate was signed much later by Dr. Carreon. Supposedly the treatment record and the certificate are public, I have no idea where (not on Kerry’s site). If this time frame can be verified it would help answer your question about Letson. It would also help to know Letson’s position at the time – was he serving in Vietam? Where? Was he the attending physician or nurse on the date in question? Dr. Carreon would also be an interesting person to talk to. If indeed he signed a certificate 3 months later he probably would see little of a wound but, who knows, maybe he did.

You see, DC, these are the kind of things we need to know about. This is what pursuit of truth is about. Not a deliberating misleading slander of a vet’s affadafit by a Kerry paid-for-journalist.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:08 pm 156. riverofpearls:

fresh air

Now, let us wait for all the facts to come out–let’s listen, really listen to both sides. Then make our decision.

I have heard Kerry’s story about his service in Vietnam. And the press has certainly helped us all to understand Kerry’s “heroism and patriotism”. Mr. Kerry and his wife (remember her shouting to the crowd and saying “here’s a real hero?”) have decided to run on his Vietnam war record. It should be fair and balanced for the american people to get the whole story. Like I said Mr. Kerry with a great deal of help from the free press has told his story. Now I want to hear what men who were also there have to say. I mean they are decorated vets also. Surely they deserve the same courtesy as Mr. Kerry. They are even willing to pay for having their story told. In other words they have put their money where their mouths are. Hey I am new here but I know trolls so don’t even try your little tricks on me.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:13 pm 157. Rick Ballard:

Folks, please take a look at riverofpearls link. Kranish has four books out on Kerry -in 2004! (The one in Spanish may be a translation, although the title doesn’t translate from the other three.) Two are set to release in September. Also, click on John’s picture on the Spanish book if you’re interested in how effective Botox can actually be. Or maybe campaigning has ‘youthed’ him.

Kranish is effectively a lead publicist for the Kerry campaign and his article should be read as a campaign response. So Kerry’s response so far is to lawyer up, threaten to sue and sic the Boston Globe’s (subsidiary of the NYT) campaign surrogate on one of the vets involved.

I wonder who Shrum will work for next? Maybe he should be referred to as Bob ‘Kiss of Death’ Shrum – the Dem undertaker.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:17 pm 158. riverofpearls:

In fact I am so interesting in hearing their side (I believe there is always at least 2 sides to every story silly me) I will pay to hear their side.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:18 pm 159. RogerA:

Jerry–sorry to be slow getting back to you–you asked me to compare the firefights I was involved in Sep 69 and Jan 70 with campaigns of WWII on a scale of 1 to 10. As an academy graduate we there thorougly immersed in the photo and movie records of WWII in both theaters. I would rate my experience as a 1 or 2; by the late 1960s the NVA had no major artillery other than rockets which were mostly used for harrassment; they had no air power–only small caliber mortars and if you were unlucky they might be shooting at you with a 12.7 MG (equivalent to our 50 cals). The other significant factor, we knew it was going to be no more than a year–the soldiers, sailors, marines and air corps of WWII were in it for the duration. Having seen a couple of fire fights, I came away with a deep and abiding respect for those that fought WWII.

Please recall my caveats–the experience I had in An Khe in 1969-1970 would be different than that of, say, the first Cav in the central highlands of 1965.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:28 pm 160. Fresh Air:

Riverofpearls–

I guess my post was misunderstood. The italicized language was from DC, not me. I was suggesting that everyone stop ranting at DC, insofar as he has waved the white flag, at least for now.

I more or less agree with everything you wrote. Please take a deep breath.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:29 pm 161. Knucklehead:

Riverofpearls:

Just to try to set this straight, I’m nearly positive that

Now, let us wait for all the facts to come out–let’s listen, really listen to both sides. Then make our decision.

is a statement by Doublecola rather than Fresh Air.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:29 pm 162. Knucklehead:

Fresh Air:

You don’t believe DC really waved any white flags, do you? His five trick botpony got dizzy running around in a circle like that and fell over. He’ll be back with vibrant new trial balloons momentarly.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:34 pm 163. RogerA:

Knuck–I agree entirely with your navy diver’s theory-war is a surreal experience and in viet nam it was made worse by short tours with lots of breaks away from it. I will leave it to the psychologists to examine that effect; as a professional soldier I made it a point to read Joseph Heller’s Catch 22 to keep me centered.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:35 pm 164. William Dyer:

Regarding the doc’s identity, from Jim Geraghty’s column (08/06 03:33 PM), “The Kerry Spot,” on NRO (unfortunately without permalinks):

Lewis Letson, who discusses Kerry’s wound in the Swift Boat Vets’ ad, is appearing on NRANews.com with me.

“I am the doctor [who treated Kerry],” he said. “Let me explain that. My critics are pointing to the [signature on the medical record], J.C. Carreon. If they look it carefully a scribble after the words, saying, ‘HM1.’ HM1 is a hospital man first class. Jesus C. Carreon was one of my medics at that naval base. He was a top-notch fella. Real prince of a fella.”

“Unfortunately, my friend Carreon died about 1992. He’s not around to back this up,” he said.

“Kerry might have thought my name was J.C. Carreon. I was the only medical officer at that base. September 68 to Sept. 1969. I can verify that with commanding officer.”

“I didn’t want to be a public figure. This has its downside, don’t have any desire to be notorious. This has some ill effects on an individual and my family. I had TV crew on my front lawn in the last hour, they just appeared at my house and rang my doorbell.”

From the same source yesterday (08/05 05:13 PM):

NR’s own Byron York had the scoop on Louis Letson, the doctor, months ago. The Kerry letter insists that Letson is a “phony” because he didn’t sign Kerry’s sick call sheet.

The Los Angeles Times looked at the who-signed-the-form controversy back in May:

“Meehan questioned Letson’s role, saying a J.C. Carreon signed Kerry’s medical report of the wound. “This gentleman is not the man who is on the report,” he said.

Letson said that Carreon, a lower-ranked “hospitalman,” was “present at the time and he, in fact, made the entry into Lt. Kerry’s medical record.”

Geraghty’s column also has useful quotes, links, and discussions (08/06 03:03 PM) about the Boston Globe’s report on the so-called “retraction” by George Elliott.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:37 pm 165. riverofpearls:

Sorry about getting confused about who posted what guys. I really want to stay on this story. If we do not let it die we might have a chance of making the media report fairly on this story. Look Kerry and his guys are hoping this story goes away. I feel we must not let it die. The guy who posted “Now, let us wait for all the facts to come out–let’s listen, really listen to both sides. Then make our decision.”

is sending out a smoke screen. The guy who posted that we “wait for all the facts to come out” is trying to stop discussion now. He is trolling. He knows if we wait the story will die. When have all the facts come out about Kerry?

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:42 pm 166. ambisinistral:

Sometimes it is better to focus on the caliber of a persons arguments rather than their motives.

Besides, i say he’s astroturfing myself.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:48 pm 167. doublecola:

Keep taking shots at me. I can take it.

If I wanted this discussion to go away, why would I have kept it going?

As stated: I’m waiting for all the facts to come in.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:52 pm 168. TedL:

Why do people think McCain is defending Kerry?

I personally believe John McCain is a man of honor, and he would not do this out of any personal animosity toward President Bush. He has made very clear that he supports the President’s reelection.

Nor do I think McCain is a dupe of Kerry’s or the Left’s.

Which leaves me unwilling to buy this.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:52 pm 169. ambisinistral:

Maybe because it is his campaign finance reform bill that’s running amuck?

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:55 pm 170. chuck:

Again on Fox like the Berger story this is beginning to be the story of the “reason for the story” instead of the story. And the news media is playing along.

Isn’t that the truth. Every time someone gives a speech there is an instant analysis of why he said such and such, what was the motive, how did it fit in the game plan. Seldom any attention is paid to content. Reminds me of college literature classes. Nevermind what the author said, what matters is motivation and style. There is something about this approach that strikes me as degenerate.

Aug 6, 2004 - 1:56 pm 171. riverofpearls:

If you want to“–let’s listen, really listen to both sides.”, you might have to pay to “listen really listen to both sides”. Obviously the free press is burying one side of the story. If these guys are PROVED liars I will apologize to the Honorable Senator John F Kerry.

https://coral.he.net/~swiftvet/swift/ccdonation.php?op=donate&site=SwiftVets

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:02 pm 172. riverofpearls:

Sorry about the link not working. I understand they are working on their site. There was so much traffic they are having to make adjustments.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:05 pm 173. riverofpearls:

Maybe it will work this time.

https://coral.he.net/~swiftvet/swift/ccdonation.php?op=donate&site=SwiftVets

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:09 pm 174. RogerA:

OT–apologies to all but is relevant to Kerry’s sliminess. Recall JFK lite criticized the president for remaining with the children for 7 minutes after being informed america was under attack–Instapundit’s 4:20 post takes you ultimately to a July 8 Larry King interview with Kerry. King asks Kerry where were you on 9/11–Read Kerry’s response–apparently he and a couple of other senators watched the second plane hit the WTC and then 40 minutes later the third plane hit the pentagon–Kerry’s comment: “we couldn’t think.” Had to wait until the white house told them to evacuate–This, my friends, is real leadership.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:15 pm 175. Fresh Air:

TedL–

I don’t know what to make of McCain, except that he believes he was slimed by the Bush campaign during the Republican primary in 2000. By insinuating they may have had something to do with it and then asking them to repudiate it, he gets to occupy his favorite position: the truth-telling moral high-ground. The guy is a politician, after all.

Having said that, what would McCain know about the Swiftees and what went on there? He would do well to keep his own counsel until the facts are in, IMHO.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:22 pm 176. Kevin P:

DC:

The facts came in on the AWOL urban legend yet you still tried to peddle that discredited slander. Hopefully you will stay more up to date on the SBV story.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:27 pm 177. riverofpearls:

Newt Gingrich on FOX John Gibson’s “The Big Story”was saying (in my words not exactly his) if John MCcain has a problem with the Swift Boats he should talk to them and not ask president Bush to discredit this group. He (Newt) also brought up the Democrats association with Michael Moore and other radical 527 groups. So why should the president be blamed for what 527 groups say and do? I mean John Kerry has never apologized for Michael Moore. Duh! Finally the truth in the media on this story. Newt understands the democrats’ game.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:31 pm 178. Knucklehead:

TedL:

My own knuckleheaded best guess about why McCain is defending Kerry on this is that he has a combination of reasons (none of them dishonorable).

First and foremost is an honest desire for the country to put the Vietnam madness behind us. Just let it go, forgive and forget.

The next ingredient is that he apparently counts Kerry as a friend or at least a long term colleague.

Next may be an honest feeling of rallying around a fellow former office under attack. The first two ingredients would, it seems to me, enhance the power of this one.

Then there is, I expect, some political calculation in here. I’ve long had a feeling that McCain is a borderline Republican. It seems to me as if there is a very strong “populist” in there wishing to escape and he is drawn to the notion of a crossover or leap to a populist party like a moth to a light. So, like Dems who post here who would not mind seeing the Dems get their heads handed to them so that maybe they’d wake up, McCain wouldn’t mind seeing his own party suffer some pain and, perhaps, go in a more populist direction or splinter off something that might unite with any Dem survivalists who finally jump off that sinking ship.

As for the matter of why hammer Bush on this, idunno. Perhaps he realizes that he’s created a monster with 527s and assumes the Swiftvets are in Bush’s pocket the way the Dems 527s are in the Dems pockets. Maybe he honestly believes the Bush team can control the Swiftvets and/or maybe he just thinks the president really should drop the hammer on something like this for the good of the nation. Regarding that, however, he created this monster and there is no way on earth the Dems are going to leash their 527s, so even if Bush could influence the Swiftvets (I have no idea if he could or not) he’d be ill-advised to do so (IMKO). Unless what the Swiftvets are saying is demostrably wrong (and I don’t think that’s likely), this has to hurt Kerry over time even if Bush pays an initial price for its existence.

And, to be honest, I don’t think the Swiftvets are motivated by support of Bush. I think they are honestly anti-Kerry for good reasons. If they succeed in hurting Kerry then the fact that Bush gains benefit is just an incidental side-effect that probably doesn’t bother them.

Aug 6, 2004 - 2:40 pm 179. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

“Why do people think McCain is defending Kerry?

I personally believe John McCain is a man of honor, and he would not do this out of any personal animosity toward President Bush. He has made very clear that he supports the President’s reelection.

Nor do I think McCain is a dupe of Kerry’s or the Left’s.

Which leaves me unwilling to buy this.”

Whoa there! Please Buy It. I know some of the people involved. I have been studying Kerry all year. I believe that the Swift Boat guys are acting out of honor. They cannot stand by and see a guy whom they consider to be dangerous elected president without the public hearing their input. They cannot stand by and see a guy who slandered every Vietnam Vet, and by implication, especially their unit, be elected on lies. I agree with them 100%, which is why I participate in a sister organization Vietnam Vets for the Truth.

I just finished sending McCain a FAX asking why Vietnam Veterans are to be muzzled while he says nothing about MoveOn.org or Michael Moore.

John McCain is my Senator. I do not hold him in high regard, other than his heroism in the Hanoi Hilton.

He is vain, narcissistic, not very bright (bottom 10% of his Anapolis class), and frankly, I think he has decided for personal reasons to put Vietnam behind him. Many of us have not – not when John Kerry (John McCain’s good friend) is waving all of it in our faces – expecting us to ignore just what kind of an evil creature he was then.

McCain is also quite capable of being duped or of jumping to the wrong conclusions. The press has him jump through hoops with a red ball on his nose, just by appealing to his narcissism.

His reaction to the ad appears to be a rerun of his reaction to a nasty whispering campaign run against him in 2000. The same PR person (Spaeth) was involved in both. Given McCain’s notorious temper, if he holds Spaeth responsible for the first, I wouldn’t be surprised if he attacked anything she was involved in.

National Review, 5/31/04:

Spaeth says the Cleland allegation is “not only false, but wildly false.” She also says she has no ties to the Bush campaign or to the Republican National Committee. But there is something to the McCain story, Spaeth says, and she wants people to know what happened.In the days before the 2000 GOP primary in New York, two Texas millionaires, Sam and Charles Wyly, formed a front group, “Republicans for Clean Air,” to pay for an ad attacking McCain’s environmental policies. Spaeth says a friend of hers in public relations called her shortly before the primary, saying he was representing a group that had done some ads and asked her to help field press inquiries about the group. Spaeth says she knew nothing about “Republicans for Clean Air,” and says her decision to help, even in a small way, “turned out to be the biggest mistake, at least one of the top five,” of her life. “I regret being involved in any way,” Spaeth says, “and I am an admirer of Senator McCain.” Now she is quick to point out that, unlike Republicans for Clean Air, the swift-boat organization is “a real group, with real members.”For his part, O’Neill says he chose Spaeth because he knew her personally; her late husband, Tex Lezar, had been O’Neill’s law partner. In the past, O’Neill has worked with Spaeth’s firm on a variety of non-political issues.

Aug 6, 2004 - 3:03 pm 180. so it begins:

Just received a phone call from an old college buddy of mine who just happens to be the editor over at humaneventsonline.com, the people leaking the documents and I got some scoop (since they are the ones releasing the book)… in short form, the Kerry campaign has nothing to go on.

Yes, I know you want facts, but I’ll leave that up to HEO.

Aug 6, 2004 - 3:32 pm 181. riverofpearls:

Senator John McCain is displaying traits he is known to exhibit when he or something he loves is going to be one upped. He likes the spotlight. He holds grudges. He has a bad temper. He wanted to be president and didn’t get what he wanted. Other than these few ugly personality traits he is known to exhibit now and then he is an ok guy. He is also a decorated veteran who spent many years in a POW camp where he suffered tremendously at the hands of an enemy of the United States of America, the viet cong. The same enemy Senator John F. Kerry aided during this time of war. I can forgive and understand Senator McCain his faults. He really did suffer for his country. Thank God for men like him.

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:12 pm 182. riverofpearls:

Book switch of Dem duo

Photocopies of “Kerry/Edwards: Their Plans and Promises,” recently sent to a few reporters and reviewers before the book’s planned release, are now collector’s items.

That’s because the 287-page bound manuscript, culled from the Kerry/Edwards Web site and introduced by Boston Globe reporter Michael Kranish, won’t be published, after all, by PublicAffairs.

Instead, the New York publisher said yesterday, it’ll bring out an authorized edition of the Democratic duo’s personal campaign manifesto.

“Our Plan for America,” subtitled “Stronger at Home, Respected in the World,” is a $12.95 oversize paperback due out by Labor Day.

PublicAffairs publisher Peter Osnos said the Kerry/Edwards campaign licensed the company to do the book – free of charge – and won’t benefit from sales.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/219589p-188612c.html

If this link does not work it is New York Daily News

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:50 pm 183. TedL:

I guess it’s true, I do have a soft spot for McCain. He’s got his flaws.

It’s a little over the top, though, to say he’s not a Republican. He’s pro-life, supports national security and gun-owners’ rights, and is very strong against tax increases. Don’t read him out of the party, please!

As for why he is defending Kerry, I guess I’d say that the posters above are right he’s probably still pissed at what happened to him in 2000. Is he wrong to be?

Aug 6, 2004 - 4:58 pm 184. riverofpearls:

Tedl

As for why he is defending Kerry, I guess I’d say that the posters above are right he’s probably still pissed at what happened to him in 2000. Is he wrong to be?

Who knows? It is not important. He should have never gotten in this fray. I am sure he knows that now.

Aug 6, 2004 - 5:14 pm 185. jerry:

RogerA:

Thanks for the response belated or otherwise. My own experience is measured against the first Chief of the Boat. He was in his 29th year (1972) and made four war patrols in WWII. My “combat” experience was limited to a few weeks off North Vietnam sucking in electrons. I guess we could have wrecked the boat. It was pretty shallow.

Aug 6, 2004 - 5:16 pm 186. PeterUK:

Having read the original post and the comments I had to go away and think about the enormity of the accusations that are being make about a candidate for leader of the Free World.

The answer to these charges are in Senator Kerry’s owm hands and yet he chooses to to stifle them by legal means and smears.All kerry has to do is make a full and detailed statement concerning the allegations,quite simple really.That he does not gives the measure of the man.

It would seem that the Democrats, the political wing of the MSM, would rather prevaricate and obfuscate, then cover up than make a clean breast of the affair.

Surely someone with so much odium attaching to them the cannot run for the highest office.

Someone wrote above

“Kerry needs to be put on suicide watch.”

If the allegations are true,there is a time when it is meet for a man to go into his study alone with a pearl handled revolver.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:30 pm 187. Alex:

Some pretty credible people writing this book, Rog. Sure you feel comfortable climbing in between the (political) sheets with them?

First you have a Nixonian Dirty Trickster.

Then you have Jerome Corsi. Here’s a few choice quotes from Corsi:

“First let’s undermine the US in Vietnam. Then we can go for gay marriage. When you get to be Pres. JFK-lite, there will be no end to how much of America we can destroy.”

“Just don’t let anybody put a tablet with the Ten Commandments in front of the school where that girl wants to wear a Muslim scarf — OH, No — then the RATS would complain. Anti-Christian, Anti-American — just like their Presidential Candidate — Jean Francois Kerrie.”

“After he married TerRAHsa, didn’t John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal gradparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?”

Your basic bigotted, anti-semetic homophobe. Why the hell should we believe the guys who were actually on Kerry’s boat, when we’ve a credible historian like Corsi working on the case?

Final question: if David Irving produces an anti-Kerry book, do you intend to talk up that one too?

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:32 pm 188. Fresh Air:

Alex–

Would you mind putting up a link to these quotes by Corsi before we eviscerate your post?

Thanks.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:57 pm 189. Roberts:

Alex, calling O’Neil a “nixon dirty trickster” is about as revisionist as Irving’s books.

Aug 6, 2004 - 6:59 pm 190. PeterUK:

I always think that if David Irving had been called Irving David he would have been a better man.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:11 pm 191. Alex:

Fresh,

Under normal circumstances, I would provide links to Corsi’s quotes so you could (try to) eviscerate my post. But in keeping with the sleazy ambuscade style of the “Swift Boat Vets” theme, I’m just going to blurt it out there and declare the truth of it, and leave my readers to verify or refute the truth of it. I’m only sorry I don’t have the funds to put it in a video montage format with scary music.

Alex, calling O’Neil a “nixon dirty trickster” is about as revisionist as Irving’s books.

Um, Okay. If you say so. The man was only recruited by Nixon and Colson to attack Kerry, and has made a life’s work of stalking Kerry ever since. I suppose one man’s Nixonian Dirty Trickster is another man’s patriot.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:23 pm 192. riverofpearls:

Why is that the Vietnam vets or any vet that supports a Republican is a “trickster”, a ‘baby killer” or a “murder of thousands”, an “ignorant low class white boy” etc., while a veteran who supports democrats is enlightened, bright, brave, courageous, intelliegent, etc. You get my drift. Aren’t they all the same to be treated the same by everyone. I know the United States Army’s motto is “An Army of One”. I am new to this site so let me explain my view to all of you. If you want me to read your posts and thoughtfully consider your talking points do not slander, smear, or in any way denigrate any man or woman who has served this country. If any veteran or soldier in the United States military speaks I listen to what he/she is saying with respect.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:32 pm 193. Fresh Air:

Alex–

I will ignore your ad hominem on Corsi, since I know nothing about him. O’Neill, however, who wrote the wartime stuff in the book, is a stand-up guy, not a Nixon “dirty trickster.”

In case you haven’t figured it out yet, the Swiftees’ ad is just the opening salvo. The real battle begins when the book comes out. August 10th: mark it on your calendar.

See you then.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:34 pm 194. Fresh Air:

Riverofpearls–

Alex is a troll. He pops out from under the bridge every now and then and we feed him some day-old bread. The DennisthePeasant comes along and whacks him silly and he scurries back under the bridge. More fun than whack-a-mole, actually. Burns fewer calories too.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:37 pm 195. JK Ribera:

Frankly, Mr. Alex, I don’t care who wrote the book. I care if it is true. The facts of the case, sir. Obviously, it is written by someone opposed to Kerry. Who else would take the time to write such a thing? What everyone should want to know is whether what he wrote is accurate. Telling us that you think he’s a bad guy is no more relevant than someone on the other side saying Moore is a bad guy. Substance, please, not propaganda.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:38 pm 196. John Lynch:

Alex

Well, let me start the parade of unreasoned response to your well-written, completely supported assertions.

Let us start with the sleazy ambuscade style of the “Swift Boat Vets” theme that started over four months ago with protests from the over 100 Vietnam vets who had something to say about the 12 or so and Kerry. This hardly seems a stealthy ambush, but a serious group of people who have stories to tell and have been looking for ways to get the story out. You know: like calling press conferences and the like. Very Ambush-like.

One of them, John O’Neill, was encouraged by Nixon after he got back from Viet Nam to put another face counter to Kerry on the Dick Cavett show. I think that is hardly the definition of one of Nixon’s Watergate boys or political hooligan plumbers.

The Dem attack machine has dug a fair bit out, and the worst they can say about O’Neill is that his position has been consistently anti-Kerry, and that he is a lawyer now (for the past 20+ years.)

I find nothing on Corsi to support your assertions. You will have to provide at least enough to get past the B.S. / troll detector.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:42 pm 197. John Lynch:

Oops. Guess it took me long enough to research my Corsi response that you all got there ahead of me.

Fresh,

I didn’t know Alex was a whack-a-mole so I thought I’d respond. Sorry. I’ll try not to encourage him.

I did find a posting by one of our regulars John (Useful Fool) Moore at this site while Googling for Corsi.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:52 pm 198. riverofpearls:

Fresh Air

Alex is a troll.

I know.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:53 pm 199. John Lynch:

In my wanderings, (thanks Alex) I found another blog on the Swift Boat Vet story.

Aug 6, 2004 - 7:59 pm 200. Kevin P:

Alex:

I assume that you are taking the time to answer the challenges to your screed that you posted. I do not know whether or not the swift Boat vets are telling the truth or not. the fact that John O’Neil disagreed with Kerry on the war is not a sign that he is a “dirty trickster”. I assume you have proof or even a report that he participated in the watergate scandall or any of the other numerous foul tricks that the Nixon presidency committed. If you don’t then you are just a cheap hack who uses the guilt by association technique that the old trickster liked to use himself. From what you have given us so far I find that you are much closer to the style of the old trickster then O’Neil.

What we have is a group of decorated Vietnam vets who disagree on John Kerry’s service record. The SBV’s worked closely with Kerry , he didn’t go out on these patrols by himself, they often worked in teams. Mr O’Neil will make money on this book but most of the other participants are taking a financial bath to put their story out. Not that this disqualifies them but some of the veterans defending Kerry are paid by the campaign s if you think that money disqualifies O’Neil do you also think that some of his defenders are suspect because they are on the Kerry payroll?

Instead of calling people liars and names why don’t you try actually taking the specific accusations that the SBV group is making and dispute them with facts or arguments beyond juvenille name calling. Ad Hominem attacks are easy but they don’t add much to the discusion.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:07 pm 201. Terrye:

Alex:

You know that tact would get you further if dems would not suck up to every propagandist, old fart Maoist, has been actor with a genitalia fixation and Humgarian billionaire that comes along and says Bush is Hitler.

There are a lot of people making these accusations, attacking the character of one of them will not make this go away. I remember those days and Kerry was a very unpopular guy back then, long before he was running for president. It is not as if all this came out of nowhere and if he had the sense God gave cabbage he would have known that this would happen.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:10 pm 202. riverofpearls:

Terrye

There are a lot of people making these accusations, attacking the character of one of them will not make this go away. I remember those days and Kerry was a very unpopular guy back then, long before he was running for president. It is not as if all this came out of nowhere and if he had the sense God gave cabbage he would have known that this would happen.

Kerry thought his campaign for president would be like when he ran for office in Massachusetts. You know his political cronies would cover his but. And he has lied about everything in his life and got away with it so why would he think it wouldn’t work now?

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:16 pm 203. Goof®:

The link…

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010

…and I was just thinking that this more and more resembles FreeRepublic.com, another of my faves.

88 days to go

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:29 pm 204. Terrye:

river:

Well if he had stayed in Kennedy land he might have gotten away with it. If he had avoided the entire subject of Viet Nam he might have avoided a lot of it. But he had to go rub salt in the wound. A lot of names on that wall and he made a point of disgracing them all.

You know my uncle lived for years with two Nazi slugs in him and had pain every day. He did not get as many purple hearts as Kerry who never even needed a hospital. That doesn’t seem fair. But my uncle was just a poor Okie who joined the National Guard and was activated to go to war.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:31 pm 205. Terrye:

Goof:

That is nice. Very helpful. If I link a lot of Michael Moore’s more obnoxious comments do you think the DNC will apologize for having him sitting in the VIP box at the convention?

I doubt it. But then they say that it does not matter what kind of stuff Moore has said if his movie is basically true. Do you agree?

Like I said dozens of men are making these claims and they are not new claims. Neither is Kerry’s testimony years ago or his behavior at the time. I myself have had enough of Nam but the reactions of Kerry to this after some of the tactics used against Bush is ridiculous.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:44 pm 206. Rick Ballard:

Goof,

So where do you think Lt. Kerry spent Christmas Eve 1968?

Which parts of Lt. Kerry’s war stories are we to believe and which to treat as self-promoting and comrade in arms denigrating lies? How do you measure the truth of Sen. Kerry’s statements on the floor of the Senate? Is he a self-aggrandizing buffoon convinced that he can lie with impunity or is he simply so stupid he thinks no one will check the record?

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:48 pm 207. John Lynch:

Goof®

Well, I do not like the site, or the cite, but if this is reputable, then Corsi does not seem to be a rational blogger, or particularly reasoned, and he seems a racist.

Damn! I know I was hoping a lot, but I really did want this story to be clean, no smudges, and no ugly attributes.

I hope that the coauthor is not representative of the actual material and the people behind it.

There does seem to be a press reaction of hands off on this stuff. Why?

OT, I guess all of these postings can be tracked and found in someone’s evaluation of your character, if they want to take the time and effort.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:53 pm 208. Terrye:

And how do we know that these quotes about Corsi are even real or relevant? Maybe they are just as fanciful as Kerry says the swifties are.

But it will not be Corsi that hurts Kerry. If this damages him it will be his own words and actions that do it.

But I guess we should just assume that if anyone says anything bad about Kerry he must be a right wing nut with an ax to grind. On the other hand if somebody trashes Bush he or she is just speaking truth to power.

Speaking of crushing of dissent, what would Kerry and his fan club say if Bush were to sic a lawyer on some one like Soros or Moore?

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:57 pm 209. Kevin P:

Roger:

I find it funny that the ghost of Nixon has raised it’s ugly head again. The funny part is that the defenders of Kerry are using the very tactics that old Dick used to defend Kerry. They don’t address the specific charges that the Swift Boat veterans make, they use character assasination and guilt by association instead. As I posted above I have not made up my mind as to whether the charges are true or not. But I do find the vehemence which these decorated veterans are being slimed with troubling.

They could be wrong, they could even be mistaken. But the rapid response team is calling them liars, acolytes of Nixon, etc. ect. The fact that Nixon put O’Neil up to debate Kerry does not make O’Neil a liar.Clinton sent half of the Democratic party out to defend him aginst the allegations that he was a serial philanderer. The fact that he was a serial philanderer does not make the “Bimbo Attack Teams” complicent in his lies and deceit. Clinton lied to them to. O”Neil debated Kerry because he didn’t like the fact that Kerry was accusing his comrades of being baby killers, tortures, and war crime criminals. I watched the old debates and I think O’Neil holds up quite well. I think Kerry has more explaining to do for the unfounded slanders that he committed against the “Band of Brothers” he so warmly embraces now.I will wait till the book comes out till I make my final decision on this matter but the foam at the mouth response from the Democrats has me feeling a little nervous.

Aug 6, 2004 - 8:57 pm 210. Terrye:

Time for bed. I have worrid this thread enough. Suffice to say that if the impeachment was Bill Clinton’s badge of honor [or whatever he called it] this will be Kerry’s. So glad Kerry and his comrades are around to let us know this is all part of a right wing conspiracy or something.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:12 pm 211. John Lynch:

Well, its official, the New York Times covers the story as a story about the story, not the story itself. This will be the pattern the rest of the media follow.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:14 pm 212. Rick Ballard:

Kevin P.,

It’s wise to wait a bit on the vet’s assertions but why wait on the Christmas ‘68 story? That’s all Sen. Kerry – it’s part of the record of his “invisible” years in the Senate.

If Bubba’s Bimbo Brigade retreads are the best that Kerry can offer in rebuttal, then let ‘er rip. If of all the 3 million men who served and died in Vietnam only a handful fit his definition of “A Band of Brothers” because of their sycophantic support of him and every other vet who opposes him is characterized as a lying scumbag by the Clinton Clones then he may have a little problem.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:16 pm 213. M. Simon:

Alex,

You are so cute when you are angry.

This is only the opening stroke. A minor skirmish.

Next comes the main battle.

You might want to study up on Winter Soldier and Dewey Canyon.

Your candidate is going to need a LOT of help.

What ever you believe about the Swift Boats 10X or 100X more belief will be required for the next round.

See your candidate admitted to be a war criminal.

So either Kerry is a war criminal or a liar. Which would you prefer?

I’d love to see how this gets spun.

Kerry right now (re: 2 Nov) is under 40%. If he does the war criminal bit poorly he will be close to 30%.

Right now it appears John Boy is covering up stuff.

Like his meeting with the NV while he was still a Naval officer. Get ready to spin that.

Well you have your work cut out for you.

Aug 6, 2004 - 9:27 pm 214. Goof®:

I wrote on this blog some weeks ago that I agree with Mark Steyn regarding Michael Moore and his movie. I’m not going to go find the comment. It’s in the archive.

I don’t care where John Kerry or George Bush was on or about December 25, 1968.

I do like this blog.

An earlier topic this week had to do with Pauline Kael and an opinion piece by Zev Chafets that ran in the New York Daily News. From that piece:

The President has a Republican convention coming up and the power of incumbency to shape events between now and November. In other words, he’s way ahead.

Time to start shaping events. The jobs report for August will be released on the day after President Bush speaks to the convention and the nation. It was reported that they were chanting on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade this morning. What they were chanting wasn’t reported, but the clear implication was that it wasn’t “Four more years!”

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:16 pm 215. Fresh Air:

Goof–

There are over 200 comments on this thread, and almost every one of them have to do with the Swift Boat Veterans attack on Kerry.

So naturally, what do you post? Something about the day’s economic news!

To wit, a bunch of T-bond traders were caught with large short positions because they expected a rapid tightening of interest rates, which the market believes won’t happen. You know how much money people lost on the Board of Trade today? Zero. That’s right. Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

Because for every trader who is short, there is someone else who is long. The chants you mentioned were from the losers. The winners were quietly figuring out whether to buy a new manse in Winnetka or head on up to Lake Forest.

Congratulations! You have extended your streak of irrelevant or content-free posts.

At least you didn’t put up any Metallica lyrics this time.

Aug 6, 2004 - 10:37 pm 216. Kevin P:

Goof:

You state that you do not care what Bush or Kerry were doing in 1968. At one time Sen. Kerry didn’t either. During the Clinton draft evasion controversy Kerry made an impassioned speech from the Senate floor.He talked about how divisive the Vietnam war was. He talked about how to politicize such a painfull event was to reopen old wounds and to further tear the country apart. He also stated that because the war was so unusual it was wrong to use one’s service or non-service in that war as a measuring stick on whether someone was qualified to be President. He stated that the Vietnam war was not a valid issue to be discussing in a Presidential election and that it was a cheap political stunt.Do you not think it is odd that when he found himself trailing Howard Dean he had a change of heart and know he has made his service in the war the primary reason why he should be elected.Do you think it was odd that the Democratic Party had no problem spreading the phoney Bush AWOL story and that bringing up Bush’s service in Vietnam is now a crucial factor in how the American Public should decide to vote.

I do not know whether the swift boat story is accurate or not. I do think that Kerry will say anything to get elected and what is one day a cheap political trick suddenly becomes noble and non-devisive if it comes out of Kerry’s mouth. I am curious to hear your opinion on the apparent contradiction in Kerry’s attitude on whether one’s service in Vietnam should be taken into account during a Presidential election. He seems, as he has on many other occasions, to have two radically different answers to the same question.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:32 pm 217. Alex:

Fresh air,

You have a curious definition of Troll: someone who does not agree with you.

You also are a despicable hypocrite — you label me a “troll,” while simultaneously accusing me of an “ad hominem” attack, simply for quoting Corsi!! How absurd!!

Two words describe you: beneath contempt.

And how do we know that these quotes about Corsi are even real or relevant?

Google would tell you they are real, if you cared. If you don’t think the despicable mouthings of an anti-semetic homophobic bigot are “relevant,” I really don’t give a damn what you think, to be frank.

I have yet to see a single substantive response to my post — only ad hominems directed at me. I expect more. Not much, but a little more. I hope you all catch moral/political herpes from embracing these folks.

The only conclusion I can reach is that all of your are unconcerned about your amorous clutch with an anti-semitic bigot.

How sad. You all have my pity.

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:51 pm 218. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Yes, two of my essays are posted at wintersoldier.com

Furthermore, I have frequently given that site as a good resource for information about Kerry, and it is.

All I know about Corsi is he has a PhD in history from Harvard and is a specialist on the anti-war movement.

Now let me talk about O’Neill. He is a stand-up guy, as honest as they get. He is the head of a significant Houston commerical law firm. He is *not* a Republican operative and never has been. He is making no money from the book. I don’t believe he is even a Republican. His feelings about Kerry are deeply felt and honest – he considers Kerry a dangerous and “bad” man.

He did debate Kerry in 1971, and Nixon encouraged that by inviting him to a white house meeting. That meeting is the basis for all the charges of “nixon stooge,” “nixon dirty trickster,” etc. In fact, O’Neill had already decided to do whatever he could to fight the anti-war movement. He wasn’t controlled by Nixon and wasn’t “an operative.”

It is not surprising the Democrats have to attack the messenger. They have no other way to deal with the issue. The truth is on the side of the messenger, not Kerry. Kerry won’t even release all of his military records. Anyone want to guess what he is hiding?

Aug 6, 2004 - 11:53 pm 219. Rick Ballard:

JohnM.,

Do you know of the location of an explanatory post concerning the form Kerry would have to sign for release? Something on the order of Bill Hobbs treatment of the Bush TANG records would sure be helpful.

If I understand what I’ve read correctly, neither the doctor nor Kerry’s CO recommended the first PH. In fact, it does not appear to have been awarded until after the second and third. Do you know who authorized it?

Aug 7, 2004 - 12:33 am 220. Pat Curley:

Almost all the stories of Kerry’s life have that extra level of polish that says that they’ve been embellished over the years at dinner parties. Kerry tells a story about his meeting JFK that’s pretty much the same as this–far too convenient for words.

We had the Christmas in Cambodia story on KH back in May.

Aug 7, 2004 - 1:55 am 221. John Lynch:

CBS’s Doty Lynch (no relation, honest.)

Aug 7, 2004 - 4:20 am 222. Terrye:

Goof:

Yeah well you know what they say, the best defence is a good offence. Economic news that was good in 96 when a Dem was in the White House is bad in 04 when the resident is a Republican. Back then 5.5 unemployment was good news. But then Clinton nearly ruined my business so if you ask me if I am better off now I will say hell yes.

Truth is the price of oil is too high for the market. Strange considering the fact that Bush and the Saudis are such good buddies and when the Carlyle Group says jump oil men around the world say how high.

Aug 7, 2004 - 5:01 am 223. Charlie (Colorado):

You also are a despicable hypocrite — you label me a “troll,” while simultaneously accusing me of an “ad hominem” attack, simply for quoting Corsi!! How absurd!!

Alex: “Troll” is a term of art that describes apattern of behavior.

Like “sodomite”.

Aug 7, 2004 - 7:08 am 224. RogerA:

Rick Ballard–from my experience in VN, all it took to get a purple heart was a field medical card–the FMC was filled out by medics or docs at the time you were triaged or shortly thereafter–At least in the army you werent recommended for a PH–I dont know if the navy worked that way. I was treated after a firefight in January 70–I had rotated out of country and literally, a purple heart awards package showed up at my next duty station some six months later.

Aug 7, 2004 - 7:55 am 225. Kevin P:

Alex:

You accused O’Neil of being a dirty Nixon like trickster. You have yet to explain which illegal or immoral act that O”Neil has committed. I followed the watergate hearing very closely and as far as I can tell all O’Neil did was debate Kerry on TV, and given the the benifit of time passing I think he beat Kerry in those debates. You made the attack on O’Neil. You have nothing but a quote from Chuck Colson. This says something about Colson and Nixon, not O’Neil. DeeDee Meyers defended Clinton because she thought he was telling the truth about his sex life. Does the fact that Clinton lied make Myers a liar too? Please list the bad acts that O’Neil has committed. If you don’t have any then you are no better then Tricky Dick himself. Smearing and guilt by association was a favorite of the Trickster. What a shame you have adopted the same tactics.

Aug 7, 2004 - 8:32 am 226. Alex:

You accused O’Neil of being a dirty Nixon like trickster.

No, I accused him of being a Nixonian trickster, someone recruited by Nixon to make political attacks.

This says something about Colson and Nixon, not O’Neil.

It says that Colson and Nixon saw in O’Neill exacly what they were looking for.

Any truth to the rumor that Fred Leuchter is going to lend his scientific expertise to the Kerry-faked-heroic-acts so he could run for President 35 years later case?

Alex: “Troll” is a term of art that describes apattern of behavior.

Like “sodomite”.

I’m confused. Which do you purport to be?

I don’t see either properly applied to me.

Aug 7, 2004 - 9:09 am 227. Fresh Air:

Alex–

Though I no doubt would disagree with you on many things. I do not believe you are a troll because we disagree, but because of your past behavior on this blog, much of which consists of poorly argued posts and ad hominem dump-and-runs. Even your oveheated response to my comment proves my point.

Aug 7, 2004 - 9:14 am 228. Kevin P:

Alex:

Please respond to the challenge. What “dirty trick” did O’Neil committ. He debated Kerry. When Kerry made a blanket charge that Vietnam soldiers were daily committing brutal atrocities and violating the Geneva Convention Mr. O’Neil challenged him openly in debate. Mr. Kerry made these charges based on one meeting that he attented, oh by the way many of the charges he repeated were made by people whio were not there or turned out later to be lies, so Mr. O’Neil made a counter argument. If you go back and read the transcripts He did a good job of challenging Kerry fantasy stories.We can have a dialog and you can list the dirty tricks that O’Neil performed but if debating Kerry is a dirty trick then Mr. O’Neil has lots of company.

If you want to continue the Nixonian guilt by association tactic then here are a couple of challenges to meet using “Alex” thought. Sen Byrd is a powerfull and highly respected member of the Democratic party. Sen. Byrd was amember of the KKK. Therefore, using “Alex” logic, it is fair to state that Sen. Kerry supports the KKK.

“I oppose the U.N. or anyone else risking the lives of their citizens to extract us from our debacle. I’m sorry but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and sadly, that majority must now sacrafice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe, just maybe, God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end. -Micheal Moore, April 14th, 2003. Michael Moore was given a place of honour,a seat in the Presidents box next to Jimmy Carter, at the Democratic Convention. The only higher honour would be to have him introduce Kerry himself. Using “Alex’ logic it is fair to say that Kerry shares the feelings of the statement quoted above and this is what the American people can expect from a Kerry administration.

Now Alex, we can go down this road forever, you can dig up quotes, you can call us names, you can wish more venereal disease upon us. Or you can respond to the challenges that the SBV make, dispute them with facts, not name calling and convince us that they are false. You can list the “dirty tricks’ has that O’Neil committed or you can continue the grand Nixonian tactic of smearing and guilt by association. I have not called you a troll but so far you have done a poor job of presenting your case or actually responding to the subject of this thread. It is easy to name call and slander. it is much harder to respond to the challenge of Roger’s post. Try it, you will like it.

Aug 7, 2004 - 9:41 am 229. Charlie (Colorado):

I’m confused. Which do you purport to be?

I don’t see either properly applied to me.

Actually, Alex, I don’t recall saying either one applied to you. I am beginning to suspect you may be one of Paul Reuben’s characters, though.

I would be interested in seeing you explain what Nixonian dirty trick you suggest O’Neill committed, though. I believe that would make me either the third or the fourth person to ask you to justify what appears to be an ad hominem circumstantial.

Aug 7, 2004 - 4:09 pm 230. hollywood:

Roger,

BTW, the reference to Resnais’ Hiroshima, Mon Amour seems misplaced. I don’t think anyone expects nuclear, more likely the Spanish Inquisition.

Aug 7, 2004 - 8:10 pm 231. Knucklehead:

Hollywood,

What the bleep point are you trying to make?

Aug 7, 2004 - 9:12 pm 232. Roberts:

Alex, indeed people have directly confronted your claims – but you avoid dealing with them by falsely claiming to be the recipient of ad hominems. You are deliberately misrepresenting O’Neill. He wasn’t recruited by Nixon for “dirty tricks”. That is a baseless slander on your part. Nixon lent him support in his already existing intention to confront Kerry and the other fake Vietnam Veteran anti-war protestors. Nothing about “dirty tricks” were involved.

Meanwhile, you fail to deal with the fact that John Kerry is being shown to be a long-standing and congenital liar.

Aug 8, 2004 - 7:50 pm 233. Kevin P:

Alex:

I take it that you have not been able to find a list of John O’Neil’s dirty tricks. But i won’t call you a troll. I will borrow some more “Alex Logic” and call you trollian. That way I can preserve plausable deniability and deny calling you a troll.

Aug 9, 2004 - 8:18 pm

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