166 Comments

1. PeterArgus:

Given Kranish’s generally sympathetic portrayal of Kerry in previous books and articles, he is probably relating the best defense of “Christmas in Cambodia” the Kerry folks have. I think an objective reader (which admittedly I am have difficulty being) would be unimpressed. Near not in, shaky and ineffectual defense of Kerry’s statement about Nixon being President (well he was Pres-elect at the time?!?), and worse no witnesses, no paperwork, nothing. It appears that the Kerry team have cobbled together a story that just barely follows the “in Cambodia” thread but that suspiciously follows a timeline which excludes any independent verification or falsification.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:08 am 2. richard mcenroe:

Kerry is reminding me more and more of Hollywood braggarts like Michael Cimino (who claimed he served with the Green Berets when he was only attached to a small troop clinic stateside at Bragg) or John Milius (he of the swaggering militaristic movies and quotes who dodged the draft).

One thing that I find particularly offensive about Kerry, and I’m ashamed as an ex-officer to admit I only realized it last night: in the heroic action he arrogated to himself, the one in which Peck and Alston were wounded, the boat was actually saved by the actions of an enlisted man who took the helm and steered the boat out of the ambush.

Let’s be very clear about this. John Forbes Kerry, a commissioned officer in the United States Navy who wants to be commander-in-chief, stole the credit for the heroism of an enlisted man.

That is lower than whale shit. The man should not be in public office, much less the White House.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:10 am 3. JK Ribera:

Regarding the above comment — if I am not mistaken, I read on this website something about a president of the screenwriter’s union losing his job recently for masquerading as a Green Beret. Reminds one of Kerry, doesn’t it?

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:18 am 4. David Thomson:

ìFrankly, this is embarrassing. Why don’t we admit the truth – Kerry Lied – and move on?î

This is not the same thing as a man lying about being 5î8 when heís really only 5î6. There are lies—and then there are lies. John Kerryís people realize that this is not an ordinary lie, but reveals a very disturbing and possibly even dangerous character flaw. The man slandered his own country and the reputations of his fellow Viet Nam vets. Would someone who was psychologically balanced and minimally moral act in such a manner? Do you want such an individual making major decisions on war and peace for our country?

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:26 am 5. ganzo azul:

The one thing his story has done is led quite a few people to go hunt down the history of Swift Boats in late 1968. These young men were asked to take on an extraordinarily difficult assignment at a pivotal juncture in the war. The links to Joe Muharsky yesterday brought the story to life. Joe described the boat as a VW bus hauling up a highway. The image doesn’t quite lend itself to gunning running into Cambodia.

The embellishments were so unnecessary. Maybe the instadad has identified a real undercurrent to Kerry’s character.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:32 am 6. Fresh Air:

Meehan uses the term “friendly fire” for Kerry, having a Francis-Scott-Key moment, said was a gunfire Christmas celebration by the South Vietnamese.

I guess I can’t blame the 11% of the population who were Christian for expressing their beliefs so vociferously. Happens all the time in Buddhist countries. Right, Charlie?

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:32 am 7. Charlie (Colorado):

David, I think you are mistaking Roger’s point: I don’t think he’s arguing that the Viet Nam lies don’t matter, I think he’s saying to the Kerry people “you’re caught.”

At this point they look more like a cat trying to cover up an accident on a tile floor.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:33 am 8. richard mcenroe:

gonzo azul ó What, you never heard of a stealth tugboat?

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:36 am 9. PeterArgus:

ìFrankly, this is embarrassing. Why don’t we admit the truth – Kerry Lied – and move on?î

Dilemma for Kerry campaign:

1. Admit lie about the most important qualifying characteristic of candidate according to them.

OR

2. Continue to cover-up knowing that there is nothing more the press likes to do then expose cover-ups.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:36 am 10. Charlie (Colorado):

I guess I can’t blame the 11% of the population who were Christian for expressing their beliefs so vociferously. Happens all the time in Buddhist countries. Right, Charlie?

Uh, it’s not as simple as all that. I wasn’t in Nam, but I know lots of Vietnamese Buddhists (there’s also a Laotian Buddhist temple right down the road from me, the Boulder area really is kind of cool). It’s primarily a Buddhist country, but Christians — Roman Catholics — had influence all out of proportion to their relative population, due to the French influence. Vietnamese is written in Roman characters (with an amazing collection of diacriticals) rather than in a script like Thai, same reason.

Buddhism as a religion has no “natural” holidays: Gautama would no doubt be a little embarrassed that we make a big deal out of his birthday, perhaps less about Enlightenment Day. But most Buddhist countries celebrate New Years, and ones with large Christian populations or Christian influence often factor Christmas in.

So, bottom line, I don’t know what they did in Viet Nam pre-Communization, but I don’t find it intrinsically incredible.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:41 am 11. Mark Poling:

The press release Roger refers to is still available in Google’s cache.

Search term: pr_2004_0129f.html

For future reference, I’ve saved it as a PDF on my web site.

Statement from Senior Advisor Michael Meehan on the RNC?s

Attacks of John Kerry

Just because paranoia runs deep, I’ve password protected it to prevent editing. Otherwise, have fun with it.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:45 am 12. David Thomson:

ìAdmit lie about the most important qualifying characteristic of candidate according to them.î

This is why the liberal media are so embarrassingly silent. They desperately want John Kerry to win. He is currently leading in the polls and the smell of possible victory is in the air. However, this lie will destroy Kerryís chances with the swing voter. The left wing Democrats could care less if the Massachusetts senator lied. President Bush already also has his voter in the bag. But those folks who are confused about the candidates and the issues do care!

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:45 am 13. Fresh Air:

Charlie–

But celebrating Christmas by firing weapons in the air? I can imagine this happening in the Middle East, where they have a penchant for such foolishness, but Vietnam? I mean didn’t they have Christmas Eve mass to go to or something?

Sounds like another piece of embroidery to me.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:49 am 14. bdog57:

PeterArgus,

If this thing gets any bigger, the press is going to turn on him. They’ll wait until after the RNC and debates, when the numbers will start to reflect the damage done both by Bush’s excellent performance and Kerry’s past follies and current ineptitude. I just don’t see them standing by their man on this one. Rats on a sinking ship (not quite cockroaches…I don’t think they are going to survive this one, and if the do they will be severely handicapped).

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:50 am 15. jedrury:

David Thomson makes a good point about Kerry’s “very disturbing and possibly even dangerous character flaw.” Go back to the election of 1992 and the Gennifer Flowers allegations which almost sidelined Bubba and think about the thread, we may or may not have perceived then, of Bubba’s “dangerous character flaw.” Character in the presidency really matters. In the event of a Kerry election [I am embarrassed to even speak its name] how would this character flaw play itself out as commander in chief ? Set aside the Swift Boat allegations if only for a moment, based on Kerry’s back and forth since Iowa, he is a man who finds truth a stranger.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:55 am 16. richard mcenroe:

This is a map of Hat Tien Viet Nam

The big thick river is the Mekong. Notice how close it doesn’t come to Ha Tien. The pie-shaped wedge in the coast line in the Mekong Delta, where Kerry served. Notice how close it isn’t to Hat Tien (For that matter, notice how the Mekong does not run along the Cambodian border).

So the special ops teams “out of Ha Tien” traveled clean across the country (or Kerry sailed clear around South Vietnam) to get John Kerry to ferry them all the up the Mekong through an entirely different unit’s area of operations and sneak them into Cambodia.

Did. Not. Happen.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:59 am 17. richard mcenroe:

Maybe they weren’t firing in the air. Maybe they knew it was Kerry and it was a Republican plot to take him out before he could get home and speak power to truth, man…

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:02 am 18. Charlie (Colorado):

But celebrating Christmas by firing weapons in the air? I can imagine this happening in the Middle East, where they have a penchant for such foolishness, but Vietnam?

Hell, Fresh, they celebrate New Years by firing in the air in Germany. First place I ever heard of a “fireworks load” for a shotgun.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:12 am 19. David Thomson:

There’s just things one does not lie about. We kind of look the other way, for instance, if a worker calls in sick when they just want to take the day off. But we are appalled if the same person lies regarding the death of their own mother. This is what John Kerry has done. He has lied about something a normal person would not even consider. Kerry has proven himself to be a very dangerous individual.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:12 am 20. Charlie (Colorado):

By the way, I’ve got to run for the office, but I’ve been listening to the beginning of Kerry’s speech to the VFW.

So far, it sounds polite. At best.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:13 am 21. MeTooThen:

ganzo azul

“The one thing his story has done is led quite a few people to go hunt down the history of Swift Boats in late 1968.”

What irony it would be that some 30 years later it turns out that the man most responsible for rekindling the nation’s interest in the heroism and bravery of our men and women who served in Vietnam, would be…wait for it…that’s right!

John Forbes Kerry.

Irony, indeed.

Hey, payback’s a bitch.

David Thompson and jedrury

“Go back to the election of 1992 and the Gennifer Flowers allegations which almost sidelined Bubba and think about the thread, we may or may not have perceived then, of Bubba’s “dangerous character flaw.”

Wow.

That’s it.

It was right there all along, William Jefferson Clinton as untreated narcissist, with borderline and sociopathic tendencies (a “dirty Axis II” as a colleague of mine would say).

Clinton the Charismatic, the Seducer, the Soother, pick one. We found out all of this about him before he was elected once. And to think, I voted for him twice!

We are seeing before us the unmaking of a man. Let’s take him at his word and not elect him President of the United States where we would have to relive this sad spectacle a second time.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:32 am 22. Sun-Tzu:

Kerry’s arguments about Cambodia (and possibly other aspects) reminds me of the accusations that flew, a few years ago, about another Asian war: Korea and the incident at No-gunri (sp?).

The claim was made that US Army troops deliberately perpetrated an atrocity, killing dozens, if not hundreds, of Korean civilians during the hectic retreat from Seoul in summer 1950. The charges were made by a member of the unit, claiming he had been there and witnessed the orders—he even went to Korea and apologized to survivors.

The only problem? He hadn’t been there. Wasn’t even in Korea (iirc).

The point of this? This guy had been a member of the Veterans’ Association (1st Cav?) for years, had insinuated himself in there. And then, for some unclear reason, stepped forward with these charges of which he would also have been guilty. But it was all fantasy, and he never (to my mind) provided a reasonable explanation for why he did it.

Is Kerry going through the same sort of thing? Told a few stories and tales years ago, when nobody paid attention to them, and just watched them spin out of control? To the point where he can’t even tell the difference (or doesn’t want to)?

Not an excuse, just a thought….

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:39 am 23. Rick Ballard:

PeterArgus,

I believe that the DNC/MSM problem is quite a bit deeper than you state. Put yourself in the shoes of the loyal DNC/Globe/WaPo/NYT editors. They’ve been faithfully carrying water for Kerry for months now, trying to polish his image, choosing the proper makeup to cover the blemishes, only lying through misdirection and carefully working at every waking moment to diminish his opponent. Now it’s time for the big dance and he gets a huge cold sore that seems to be festering and suppurating and the campaign flack assigned to to steer them is telling them that it’s just a small pimple that Clearisil will fix right up in a day or so. So, loyal minions of the DNC that they are, do they buy the Clearisil as a cure for herpes? Do they stick their fingers in their ears and shut their eyes and just hope it goes away?

Life’s not always easy for the DNC shills – even those taking paychecks from the MSM. Are they really going to give up the vestigal remnants of their credibility in support of this charade? If you read the Kranish piece carefully and combine it with the Globe opinion piece from yesterday and then compare it to Kranish’s first coverup piece I think you’ll note a certain coolness developing towards the annointed one.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:45 am 24. Knucklehead:

Richard McEnroe,

I can’t fathom why no MSM outlet isn’t putting a couple people on this for 2 or 3 days.

If we look at the service timeline at Kerry’s website we have him at An Thoi (on Phu Quoc Island) for one week (12/6/68 – 12/13/68) with no command of any boat. An Thoi is an Island off the coast near Ha Tien. This would be the most likely time in Kerry’s service where he might have made some incursions into Cambodia (the Cambodian coast is right there and the river that Ha Tien is situated on borders Cambodia).

Kerry commanded 2 PCF’s (44 and 94) and everything I can find says those boats worked the Mekong Delta and upstream to Sa Doc (sp?). Most of the heroism and “narrative” Kerry has constructed, BTW, is part of the PCF-94 lore and, according to his site, all the PCF-94 action happened in the southern part of the Mekong Delta.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:58 am 25. JB:

Rick,

Yeah, the only question remaining is whether they put Kerry out of his misery or go down with him. This thing has legs — Kerry can die a slow, painful word-of-mouth death or be humanely euthanised. At the end, I believe W. will even peel off some of Kerry’s base coming to its senses.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:59 am 26. Knucklehead:

Here’s a better map of Ha Tien.

If someone is aware of Kerry having been stationed anywhere but the Mekong area for anything but that one week between 12/6 and 12/13/68, please point it out to us. In the one week that he was at An Thoi that I have discovered he was completely green (had just arrived from Swiftboat school in the states) and had no boat. While this station would have been the ideal for incursions by Swiftboats into Cambodia (no one has shown that any such thing was done prior to May of 1970 that I am aware of) it is nearly impossible to believe that anyone with any sense of military responsibility would have grabbed Lt. Greenie and handed him a boat during his week of boredom at An Thoi to run guns or ops over to Cambodia.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:10 am 27. ter0:

Knucklehead,

I think you’ve hit on the next “explanation” to explain the confusion over “in or near Cambodia” — it’s just too little, too late.

If we look at the service timeline at Kerry’s website we have him at An Thoi (on Phu Quoc Island) for one week (12/6/68 – 12/13/68) with no command of any boat. An Thoi is an Island off the coast near Ha Tien. This would be the most likely time in Kerry’s service where he might have made some incursions into Cambodia (the Cambodian coast is right there and the river that Ha Tien is situated on borders Cambodia).

Boston Globe (click on “Where Kerry Served in VietNam”)

Scroll down it’s under the photo of the PCF 94 crew.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:18 am 28. Knucklehead:

For those interested, here’s a claim that the Swiftvets are putting rounds into the sides of the JKS Minnow. See ANTI-KERRY AD A HIT.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:26 am 29. jedrury:

MeTooThen:

I have a real problem with a guy who comes home from Vietnam an apparent decorated war hero and then turns on his fellow GIs, all for the sake of his dream to be a latter day John F. Kennedy. Loyalty is a major characteristic. Follow his career in the Senate as Teddy’s lap dog and there is no much character there.

With the president, he shows character; steadfastness, honesty, integrity and loyalty. Character is a big issue in this election.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:27 am 30. Knucklehead:

Ter0:

The map is interesting. The article seems to be from 6/2003. Is there anything else that says Kerry was stationed at Ha Tien or longer than One Green Week at An Thoi?

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:31 am 31. Fresh Air:

ter0–

Good map. I don’t think it’s complete however. Wasn’t Kerry on the Mekong River, too?

I believe there were only two main waterways patrolled by Swift boats to the Cambodian border into Cambodia, the Mekong and Bessac Rivers.

However, if this map is correct Kerry was never on either one of them.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:32 am 32. ricpic:

Clinton was the quintessential snake oil salesman.

Kerry is the quintessential empty suit.

With the exception of the ABB crowd, I don’t see how anyone can NOT see this!

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:46 am 33. Knucklehead:

The map from the story Ter0 pointed to is only marginally useful upon closer examination.

What is required to get a handle on this story is a map covering the area shown on that map but, rather than showing us the locations where Kerry was involved in actions for which he was awarded a medal, show us the locations of the bases he was stationed at, the dates he was stationed at them, and the patrol areas of his commands.

His time on the Mekong Delta doesn’t hold much hope of supporting his Cambodia fantasy. And, as I mentioed above, I’m not spotting anything that says he was over by An Thoi long enough to need a fresh haircut.

A full release of his records would help clear up this matter – surely in his favor, right?

Why won’t he release the records?

One of the disadvadvantages of using the web for research is that the reseach easily becomes disjointed unless one prints stuff out and carefully keeps track of where it came from. It would be helpful to be able to spread maps and books and Kerry’s after action reports on a table. This is a job for newsroom type resources.

But the MSM only needs to hang on another 60 or 70 days without covering this. Without full disclosure by Kerry (BTW, could some reporter file Freedom of Information Act stuff to get military records?) under the heat of MSM pressure, they will continue to stonewall this no matter how badly water is flowing under, through, and around the stone wall.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:51 am 34. Fresh Air:

Knucklehead–

BTW, could some reporter file Freedom of Information Act stuff to get military records?

No. That information is exempt from the act. A third party can file a Form 180, but all you’re likely to get is very basic information like date of entry, date of separation. etc. I may go ahead and do that for Alston, just for kicks.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:57 am 35. ganzo azul:

Another map of Ha Tien

The Navy Historical Center write up: Sealords Campaign.

From Ha Tien you can take the Vinh Te canal to Chau Doc. The Vinh Te canal system demarks the border between Vietnam and Cambodia. I seem to recall that it was Bernique’s unauthorized trip up the Vinh Te in October 68 which opened up this canal to the Swift Boats.

From what I’ve read, a trip from Sa Dec to the Chau Doc would take about two hours. Can it be ascertained whether Kerry’s boat turned left at Chau Doc and worked the Vinh Te canal?

Kerry may have very well crossed the border. I guess I don’t understand Kerry’s outrage that this country committed a heinous act by sending reconnaissence teams into Cambodia to try to stem the flow of Viet Cong weapons into Southern Vietnam. I certainly hope that today the CIA is sending teams into Syria and Iran.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:03 am 36. PeterArgus:

I seem to recall reading somewhere (might have been Roger’s site) that filing a Form 180 now would not result in records being released until after election. At any rate that does present a good strategy for the Kerry folks: file for full disclosure when it is certain that the files wont be unearthed until too late. Then they can say to critics that they are cooperating and the record will show that Kerry’s version is correct…. On the other hand there is always the risk that the system may become remarkably efficient resulting in early release.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:07 am 37. TmjUtah:

For all his talk of nuance, Kerry has run a remarkably clumsy campaign.

His entire political career has been in liberal Massachussets. As recipient of Ted Kennedy’s patronage he’s always enjoyed the monolithic support of the state machine and media. He’s never had to run a campaign where issues extended much beyond keeping his base happy. Even after twenty years in D.C. he unconsciously assumed that the same parameters might extend to a national election.

He didn’t run because he believes he’s a better choice. He ran because he thought Bush might be beaten. That’s why he’s not even attempted to establish a domestic agenda beyond sniping at the economy. That explains the reflexive response to Bush’s intent to lower overseas troop levels – he’s so conditioned to attack vice debate he couldn’t help himself. There is no vision in this campaign – nor in its surrogates – beyond restoring the political world to what they think it is supposed to be.

If Kerry falls a few more points behind I think the MSM will leave their trenches by battalions.

I think we’ll see it happen before the RNC convention, too, if it is going to happen.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:10 am 38. Rick Ballard:

Knucklehead,

“I can’t fathom why no MSM outlet isn’t putting a couple people on this for 2 or 3 days.

As I said above, imagine yourself to be a DNC/MSM editor. You’ve been on the DNC pad for years, you enjoy going to the “right” cocktail parties, you’ve been selling your integrity for so long that there is very little left. But this Meehan clown is coming up with crap so ridiculous that you’d be embarassed trying to sell it to a a three year old.

What is the story line that you are going to assign the reporters to cover? Nagourney and Milbanks teamed couldn’t gild this steaming pile. Remember, you’ve watched Carville and Davis – the best of Bubba’s Bimbo Brigade go after O’Neill and get their ass handed to them. You’ve watched Matthews make a complete fool out of himself with O’Neill, too. You note that O’Neill made the correct pre-emptive move with the stations carrying the ad – providing over a hundred pages of documentation prior to the DNC/Kerry lawyers attempt to squash the ad through legal posturing.

What is the DNC/MSM story line going to be? Given that a DNC/MSM editor knows that there will be life after the public court martial of Il Capitano Bragadoccio passes from the scene, he or she is in a very, very tough spot. Set aside moral and ethical considerations for the moment, (remember, this is the DNC/MSM), how would you respond?

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:13 am 39. Fresh Air:

Ganzo–

Kerry’s (false) narrative seems to state he was north of Sa Dec, which would imply he was on the Mekong River. The Mekong River was not only patrolled by U.S. Navy vessels at the border, according to Steve Gardner there were pilings in place that only permitted egress to shallow-draft vessels like sampans at high tide. A Swift Boat couldn’t have made it across.

If you are saying he could have used the Vinh Te canal (which I can’t make out on the Sealords map, BTW), you need to show he was at least stationed near it or had previously skippered on it.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:13 am 40. Godzilla:

richard mcenroe

Re: Kerry is lower than whale shit.

I couldn’t agree more. Just thinking about that pos is like walking into a room serving an all-you-can-eat shit smorgasbord. It’s way more than just him on the table, he’s got the democratic party on the menu. There are people who know about his perfidy and will still vote for him, and THEY too are scum.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:15 am 41. Fresh Air:

Godzilla–

Don’t hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

Seriously, I don’t think people who know about Kerry’s perfidy and vote for him are scum, just unprincipled–possibly hypocrites, too.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:23 am 42. M. Simon:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/08/18/kerry_disputes_allegations_on_cambodia?mode=PF

notice how the tone of a pro Kerry Boston Globe reporter (Kranish) is starting to shift.

The anti-Kerry quote was the last one in the article.

========

Why was John Kerry mistaken about Christmas eve in Cambodia? Because poor John’s brain was seared. He has never been the same since. He said so himself.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:23 am 43. M. Simon:

BTW it is getting really bad. We now have evidence in Kerry’s own words that he was not under hostile fire when he got his first Purple Heart wound.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002273.php

This is the end, my only friend the end.

A lot of times when a big man’s cover is blown suicide is the result.

============

What is the difference between Walter Mitty and John Kerry? Walter Mitty was totally fictional.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:28 am 44. Knucklehead:

ganzo azul,

Thanks for those links.

I’ve said it before here but I just can’t see Kerry working his PCF through the canal system all the way from Sa Dec (which was apparently at the far end of the area covered by his coastal division) all the way through another units patrol area and into Cambodia. Why would anyone send an ill-suited boat out on a mission like that, secret or otherwise?

And the idea there would be no records at all is pretty silly. There were tons of insertions into Cambodia while Kerry was there. Apparently there done by helicopter and non-US Navy craft. The waterways into Cambodia or skirting along the border were almost certainly closely monitored – apparently Sihanouk got downrigth testy about boats entering his country. Kerry was sneaking any PCF past some waterway guards even if they were asleep in their lawn chairs and hammocks.

The Cambodia incursions aboard his trusty Swiftboat are sheer nonsense unless he can find some way to show that he was not starting from the delta and/or that somebody assigned him a different craft for some preposterous reason.

Can’t you just see it… Nixon, in his first six weeks in office, decides to send US Navy assest into Cambodia through the waterways regardless of the international hissey-fit Sihanouk will throw if he detects it. So down the chain start trickling the orders and somehow, someway, somebody who needed a sharp whack with a cluebat picks John Kerry, with a mere 4 months in country, to carry out the mission.

From what we’ve heard from Kerry’s chain of command, the only way that would have happened was if they were hoping Kerry would wind up captured or dead.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:28 am 45. Greg in Los Angeles:

The comment, “The real war heroes I have known hardly ever talked about it and certainly didn’t want to be heroic again”, really struck home for me. It was not until after my grandfather’s death that I even knew he served during WWII in Europe and was shot to pieces and received the Silver Star. This I found out only after going through a box of old pictures and newspaper clippings. The local paper described it more like a movie scene where he single handedly stormed a machine gun nest, already shot several times, propped himself against a tree, ran out of bullets, pulled weapons from dead colleagues and finally wiped out the nest. I was shock and confronted my parents as to why no one ever talked about it. “It just wasn’t your grandfather’s way”. Most heroes don’t talk about their accomplishments. Kerry has made this the center piece of his campaign. Therefore, right or wrong, he opened himself up to praise or criticism. He has draped his entire campaign around this theme. Instead of highlighting his political career which has more to due with this presidential race he has wrapped himself in a cheap suit with words like “I served in Vietnam.” One can only assume that his service to his country as a politician is not what one would call “heroic” thus not worth talking about.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:29 am 46. WichitaBoy:

TmjUtah wrote: There is no vision in this campaign – nor in its surrogates – beyond restoring the political world to what they think it is supposed to be.

Which would be, what, September 10, 2001?

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:30 am 47. Rick Ballard:

Tmj,

I don’t think that the DNC/MSM will toss him overboard until W has a 6-7 point lead. I’m betting that we will first see a rise in the undecided vote and that decisive movement will not occur until the September 4th or September 11 Gallup polls are reported. If the September 4 poll comes in at 53-47 or 54-47 (two way) then the DNC/MSM will begin their rowback. I’m still wondering when Osama’s shade will cast his vote.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:30 am 48. ter0:

Knucklehead, et al.

My comment and link went more to the map supporting the “in Cambodian waters” response of the Kerry campaign, rather than it being a comprehensive depiction of Kerry’s service. I agree it seems incomplete.

On the other hand, assume you are a voter or MSM editor looking for an excuse to ignore the Cambodia flap, that map shows him awfully close to the Cambodian waters, no?

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:31 am 49. JBR:

I sure hope that everyone’s right about the Swift Boat story destroying Kerry’s campaign in the end, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of it. Kerry has been leading almost every day in the Rasmussen tracking poll, and has been leading in most of the other polls. Bush still has plenty of time, but if he isn’t winning after the RNC, don’t we have cause to worry?

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:31 am 50. Rick Ballard:

54-46, obviously

Priview is your ferind

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:34 am 51. Knucklehead:

Ter0:

I get your point. For the average consumer of the quick spin, a look at that map would suggest that Kerry might have been out for a morning swim or evening stroll and wound up in Cambodia.

(Hey, John, you goin’ out for your mornin’ swim? Good, always good to stay in shape. Pull this raft over to other river bank and leave it there, willya. I can’t tell you why and what’s on it, John, you know that. Just do it.)

The notions of patrol areas, military jurisdiction/authorization, record keeping for fuel, ammo, maintenance, etc, hostile and armed Cambodians who know precisely where the entry points are and don’t want no steenking American sailors and their steenkin Sweeftboats motoring into their country, etc, will never cross their minds. Give them an easy out and they’ll grab it.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:40 am 52. Knucklehead:

Completely OT and I have no idea what to make of this, but I’ve been on my typical election-time bumbper sticker watch. I don’t recall seeing a single “Kerry-Edwards” bumper sticker yet and just saw the first “Bush-Cheney 04″ one this AM.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:45 am 53. David Thomson:

ìI sure hope that everyone’s right about the Swift Boat story destroying Kerry’s campaign in the end, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of it.î

We do indeed have a lot to worry about. The liberal media are distorting the facts. Most Americans are unaware of John Kerryís lies. It is up to us on the Internet to literally save the day! We are forced to be heroes of some sort whether we like it or not.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:51 am 54. ter0:

Knucklehead,

That’s it, but while it might have worked early on it appears to be “too little — to late” now. And I think the Kerry campaign knows it, seeing how shrill their response has been.

Watching ONeal with Rassmann briefly the other night, Oneal says “no hostile gunfire, none, period.” The Moderator asks Rassmann if Oneal is lying, Rassmann (looking like he would rather not answer says, “Mr. Oneal is being disingenuous, blah, blah blah. When I came up out of the water, I heard shots, I was being fired upon.”

Very unconvincing — eyes darting to the side, measured speech, like someone who had settled on a script not of his own making; not at all the kind of response you would expect from a special forces guy WHO WAS THERE.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:54 am 55. jdm:

I admit it. I (think) I was wrong.

I wrote a few days ago that I didn’t think this Kerry in Vietnam thing would have legs, but I’m starting to doubt (as in, I’m not convinced yet, but I am certainly not as sure as I was).

I really expected the Kerry campaign to handle this better (I’m not sure how, but that’s not my job , as I have to believe that the Clintons would’ve.

I know that Big Time politics requires an Big Ego to match, but it has to be tempered by a realization that those skeletons in the closet are going to be found and the rationalization that they won’t matter on balance and/or that they can be managed. Again, Clinton.

And who the f decided to base a campaign on those skeletons…

If I was a Democrat, I’d be incensed. So many stand-up guys in those primaries. Lieberman (especially), Gephardt, hell, even Dean. An entire primary season and the Democrats choose the most pathetic of all the candidates (OK, except for Sharpton).

Egads.

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:55 am 56. PeterArgus:

Knuck:

My son did a bumper sticker watch on our trip from NYC to DC this weekend. Bumpersticker poll was 18-9 Kerry vs. Bush. He didnt count all the cars with moonbat ABB stickers but no Kerry sticker; he’s a stickler for details. Of course You can’t get much more blue state than this pass through the I-95 corridor. Supposedly Republicans are less likely to express themselves via bumper stickers. Dont know the veracity of this but it sounds plausible. Dont want to mess up those Lexuses, Mercedes, and Hummer’s, I suppose:)

Aug 18, 2004 - 10:57 am 57. TmjUtah:

Rick Ballard -

I agree with you about Osama’s shade. Both the shade and the vote part. OBL is fertilizer. And we are going to be hit before the election.

I don’t think that NYC will be the primary target, especially during the convention. They cannot be stupid enough to give Bush the election via exploiting the moonbat riots as cover for an attack.

I may be giving credit where it’s not due, of course.

I don’t rule it out completely – targetting New York – but I freeliy admit I’ve no clue what for the attacks will take.

I do stand by my timeline. Look at the sheer investment on media’s part to accomadate the Democrat’s desire to run a candidate who’s political baggage since entering public office is a defacto rejection of effective national defense, intelligence gathering, or political leadership beyond class warfare and big government babysitting?

Bush beat Gore on domestic issues. He unseated a quasi-incumbent during times of prosperity and peace…which immediately became the Second Coming of the Great Depression and World War IV (’cept it’s all our fault) courtesy of the efforts of media and foreign actions.

Bush did what he said he would do – or at least saw legislation signed into law – on EVERY policy plank he ran on for this term in office except for comprehensive social security reform. This in time of war, and this against minority obstruction and politically motivated sabotage (Intelligence memoes, anyone) exploiting the war.

There’s a tipping point somewhere. There must be. Idealogues tend to make a lot of noise but the candidates are ultimately chosen by voters who just want things to work. Having the Clinton backroom stepping into Kerry’s camp at this time is the clearest sign I can see that they know that it will be tactics, not substance, as the only asset they have in this fight.

I’m off – my wife’s annual picnic is today, and it happily coincides with her XXth birthday and our 16th anniversary. Y’all have a fabjous day.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:00 am 58. Knucklehead:

PeterArgus,

An 18-9 count (27 total) going down the NYC to DC corridor is astonishing (unless you did it in the middle of the night). Play license plate bingo or poker on the same trip and you’ll have hands with three aces . That’s thousands of cars.

Dems (and assorted Moonbats) are much more prone to bumperstickers, so the 2-1 preference for Kerry doesn’t mean much, especially since, as you said, the country doesn’t get much “bluer” than in that corridor.

One of my favorite political cartoons, BTW, showed the back of two cars, one with one lone bumpersticker that said “Pro-Choice before conception, Pro-Life after” and the other car with every Moonbat bumper sticker in the world and the people in the Moonbat car were saying, “Look at that sick weirdo!”. I’m not a bumper sticker sort myself.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:09 am 59. TmjUtah:

Wichita Boy -

I don’t think there’s really a precedent for what they think “ought to be”.

The Carter years? Dem president, dem legislature, dependably liberal supreme court and double digit inflation racing with interest rates, unemployment, and recession? Oh, and top marginal rates, too.

They’ve built this dream of liberal nirvanna where all the ills of the nation (and the world) will be solved if only the right people with the correct political script run things. Where’s the proof? Look at the creatures they hold up as scions and ask yourself if they could survive as a used car dealership…or an investment firm.

It’s ludicrous. They may want to believe their own press but people are trying to kill my family. Lawyers are trying to kill our economy. My social security is going to be a methane bubble in a blast furnace unless action is taken soon. And John Kerry’s command of a Swift boat thirty years ago is somehow supposed to convince me he’s qualified to preside over the executive branch for the next four years? I’m supposed to ignore his senate record?

Who do these people think they are, and just how stupid do they think we are? It’s frightening. Not what they think about people they are attempting to attract, but what they must think of their base. Pathetic.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:14 am 60. bdog57:

TmjUtah

Surely you meant frabjous not fabjous?

…O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’

He chortled in his joy.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:20 am 61. Knucklehead:

Well, I don’t know what to make of another thing. This election cycle seems VERY odd. The dirth of bumper stickers is one thing. Today I heard yet another female mention that Kerry gave her the creeps. I casually asked if she’d heard anthing about the Swiftvets or Christmas in Cambodia or anything negative about Kerry’s Vietnam service. Nope, she clearly had nottaclue about any of that.

Has anyone seen any poll having any look at the breakdown male-female? I could be conjuring, but I’m pretty sure that was a standard part of the reporting when it came to poll reports about Clinton. In fact, I seem to recall wondering how a womanizer could be so popular with women.

There could be an underlying current here that is not being reported by the MSM along with the Swiftvet story. Just pondering.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:21 am 62. Pat_Henry:

Roger,

I think it is clear that media elites (NYT, NPR, PBS) and blogs (Talkpointsmemo.com, dailykos.com, kausfiles.com) will avoid this story.

They want Kerry to win. So, why present his lies to the world? What if Kerry loses? Then they will have Bush as President again. This is unacceptable. Hence, they cover Kerry.

Pat Henry

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:21 am 63. M. Simon:

I don’t believe a man with a character like John Kerry’s could be a war criminal. I believe he lied to the Senate in 1971.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:27 am 64. blogaddict:

I have a certain sense of weariness. Probably because I live in an overwhelmingly LLL city. All I see or hear are excuses for Kerry, hatred for Bush. These allegations are dismissed out of hand, “It’s a plot by lying Republican operatives;” “Everybody lies in politics, look at what Bush did!” etc. etc. etc. And these are my friends and acquaintances!

I hope the swift vets’ story has legs, because otherwise I’m about to go nuts. I can’t keep arguing with people whose minds are closed; I feel utterly disillusioned with most of the people I know. Whatever happened to critical thinking and morality? Hatred of Bush has been fanned to such a high pitch that NOTHING Kerry has done or ever could do can change the minds of most people I know.

Anyone listen to Kerry’s speech today? I heard parts of it, and I feel despair. I keep hoping to hear SOMETHING from Kerry that could reassure me that, if elected, he has some sort of grasp of the issues in the WOT. Today’s speech scotched that notion once again, I’m afraid. We’ll pull out and Europe goes in? All the Arab countries want to see a free Iraq?????? (I don’t have a transcript, but that’s what I thought I heard)–

What an airhead. I don’t know whether he’s just plain stupid–really stupid–or being strategic in some way, shoring up his base. And I really don’t care. He is a pathetic excuse for a candidate.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:27 am 65. SuzeQ:

I read what everyone writes and I think about the comments and many of them are indeed insightful, some even witty, but . . . I must confess. I have a crush on TMJUtah.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:43 am 66. PeterArgus:

Knuck:

Same reaction about the lack of bumper stickers. It was during the day. I dont have one on my car because the last thing I want is my car vandalized on a northeastern college campus where I work. But I generally I dont believe in expressing my political opinions via sticker. Maybe other people feel the same way. Overall I see mainly ABB stickers around here.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:47 am 67. Knucklehead:

Here are details of the response to the Swiftboat Ad.

I didn’t look at this close enough to see if the words matched the graphs, but I’ll assume they do.

They did not break down the male-female dynamic any further than to tell us the participants were about 22% male and 78% female (what, no undecideds in this day and age?!?! Comeon boyz and girlz, this is 2004!).

That seems an large enough disparity to have deserved comment, but I didn’t notice any comment about it. Hmmm… Given that the add seemed to have a big effect (not good for Kerry) on independents and even Kerry supporters, and given it was so heavily weighted with female respondents, maybe there is something to Knucklehead’s Skeevey Index.

What we need is a polling outfit to do a poll of females that rates the two candidates on a scale of:

Hot…

Yum…

OK…

Mom-would-like…

No-thanks…

Yuck…

Creepy…

Skeevey

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:48 am 68. Knucklehead:

SuzeQ,

Its completely understandable regarding our buddy from Utah. All his wives just love the heck out of him. Go figure.

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:51 am 69. Knucklehead:

ummm… I guess its no surprise.

What do you suppose they do in France?

Aug 18, 2004 - 11:58 am 70. Peter G.:

I wouldn’t count kausfiles.com as among the places avoiding this story. It hasn’t. Kaus has to be the Kerry supporter most critical of Kerry in the press (that’s among the press who actually announced that they’re Kerry supporters, which is admittedly a tiny number).

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:00 pm 71. David Thomson:

ìHatred of Bush has been fanned to such a high pitch that NOTHING Kerry has done or ever could do can change the minds of most people I know.î

I take it for granted that the Kerry fanatics could care less if he lied about something of such existential importance. Itís the swing voters who will be persuaded to vote for President Bush. Even the most popular presidents of all time never captured more than 61% of the total vote.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:07 pm 72. Lola:

I’d love to put a bumper on the back of my car in the window (I hate plastered bumpers), but being as I live 25 miles from the Capitol and commute to the metro, parking in the metro lot, I’m not sure I want to have my car vandalized. Oh, there are magnetic bumpers to be had, but we got a lot of crazy drivers full of road rage and I’m just a teensy woman, and my husband would not be happy about me getting run off the road. So, I’ll just leave it to the general public to play a guessing game as to who I’m voting for.

I do agree, that Kerry just gives me a really creepy feeling. I wouldn’t want to be stuck in the same room with him.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:12 pm 73. WichitaBoy:

So what accounts for the extreme Bush hatred anyway? That seems to be the most important factor in this election. If it weren’t for that, Kerry would be a “methane bubble in a blast furnace” by now.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:13 pm 74. J_Crater:

There is an old adage among Special Forces et al, that the more someone is bragidious about his military activities/postings, the more likely it is that they are false. Hence the “Bore War.”

If Kerry had a Senate record of note, we would all be looking at that instead, but there is no there there. So we’re here.

I posted (somewhere) the other day that I thought it was time for the “grownups” to start running Kerry’s campaign. I guess/hope it is happening as I see an AP story about a realignment of the Kerry machine staff. I don’t include Meehan, Harkin or Wes Clark in the list of “grownups”.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:17 pm 75. Triple E:

Uh, TmjUtah, you might want to be careful about posting those figures…….

If its your wife’s XXth birthday, and your 16th wedding anniversity,…..

I think its illegal in most states to marry an four year old…..

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:22 pm 76. Fresh Air:

EEE–

Not in Utah it isn’t.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:27 pm 77. M. Simon:

In WW1 it took about two weeks from the time the elite lost heart until the general population lost heart. The elite are losing heart. By 10 Sept the cracks will be two wide to bridge evenif the elite regains its composure.

Kerry is toast. You can count the two/three weeks starting today.

Too many lies. Even the media is becomming embarassed. When he loses his allies he is gone.

A suicide watch might be a very good idea.

=========

Why was John Kerry sneaking around Cambodia in a Swift Boat?

Because you could hear them coming from a mile away.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release all the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:29 pm 78. Bostonian:

Peter Argus: “I seem to recall reading somewhere (might have been Roger’s site) that filing a Form 180 now would not result in records being released until after election.”

If I remember correctly, on the Hugh Hewitt show, O’Neill said this sort of paperwork can take a few months to be processed.

OTOH, I’m sure the relevant clerks & officials are aware of this issue. I can easily imagine them expediting the paperwork. In fact, they may have it at their fingertips right now, just waiting for Kerry’s signature on the 180.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:48 pm 79. Roberts:

I don’t put stickers on my vehicles as a rule but I couldn’t resist this year putting one on my truck that reads: “10 out of 10 Terrorists Agree – Anybody But Bush”.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:48 pm 80. ricpic:

“So what accounts for the extreme Bush hatred anyway.”

The best article I’ve seen on this phenomenon was written by Victor David Hanson for National Review.

In a nutshell, Bush, by all the integers of wealth and upbringing, should, at the very least, give the views of the Eastern Establishment a respectful hearing. The fact that he not only fails to show respect but clearly ignores their advice drives them up the wall.

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:52 pm 81. blogaddict:

David Thomson–

I agree with you that the ABB voters are all but lost–nothing will turn them away from voting for Kerry, even if they have to hold their noses and take Quaaludes to pull the lever, and that the people who need to be reached are the swing voters.

The thing that perturbs me on a very personal level is that in the last year I’ve discovered that the vast majority of my family, friends, and even casual acquaintances, appear, to my horror, to be much closer to the former group than to the latter.

It’s been the most profoundly disillusioning experience of my life so far, and I’m 56 years old (and my life has included betrayal by a spouse, a good friend, and other assorted disillusionments). But this feels larger in a strange (although admittedly less personal) sort of way, because it has threatened my faith in the critical thinking capacities of people I thought were intelligent, educated, well-informed, kindly, decent, and thoughtful. If brainwashing (or whatever it is) people like this is that easy, what hope is there?

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:52 pm 82. Fresh Air:

Bostonian–

They can expedite the paperwork (witness how fast they turned around Bush’s request). Also, the request can be completed online which in theory would accelerate it somewhat.

Lola, Knuckle–

I think the “skeevey” moniker may be due to the subliminal feeling we all get that when Kerry comes on television we’re watching a colorized rerun of “The Munsters.”

Aug 18, 2004 - 12:54 pm 83. Rick Ballard:

WichitaBoy,

“So what accounts for the extreme Bush hatred anyway?

I suppose I’d have to say fear, primarily. In Wagnerian terms, the Gotterdammerung is upon the Dems. Brunilde mounted her steed in 2000, the flames continued to mount in 2002 and the consummation is scheduled for Nov. 2. Having no faith in Valhalla’s existence the nihilistic among the Dem’s have let their fear turn to impotent rage. I think that Kerry plays the part of Grane very well, or at least one part of Grane anyway. I vote for Hillary as an unwilling Brunhilde with her feet tied to Grane’s stirrups. I find it a cheering thought.

There are those among the Dem’s that do have a long term faith. For them, the legend of the Phoenix is more appropriate. Perhaps this time the dross will be burned away completely, allowing for a new beginning.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:02 pm 84. Jamie Irons:

blogaddict

You wrote:

It’s been the most profoundly disillusioning experience of my life so far, and I’m 56 years old (and my life has included betrayal by a spouse, a good friend, and other assorted disillusionments). But this feels larger in a strange (although admittedly less personal) sort of way, because it has threatened my faith in the critical thinking capacities of people I thought were intelligent, educated, well-informed, kindly, decent, and thoughtful. If brainwashing (or whatever it is) people like this is that easy, what hope is there?

Man, do I share your feelings. I work in a place where I could not tell my political views to anyone (it would damage their ability to work with me, and that would in turn not help our patients). And my wife, the most intelligent and perceptive person I know, cannot bring herself to honestly look at the Kerry record (she suffers from a relatively mild form of Bush Derangement Syndrome: she understands we are at war with Islamic fanatics, and supports the Iraq war and the “WOT” in general).

So you have my sympathy.

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:04 pm 85. Knucklehead:

Triple-E: I think its illegal in most states to marry an four year old…..

Fresh Air: Not in Utah it isn’t.

Could you guys please be more precise? We are, after all, talking about the Great State of Utah (is it true, BTW, that Utah is the only state with a federal rider on its marriage laws?). A four year old what?

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:09 pm 86. insatty:

Greg from LA makes a good point. My father, injured in combat in a Korean-war battle, sold his personal items and co-founded an orphanage while an MP in Japan. I didn’t discover this until after his death. Geo. HW Bush and Bob Dole to my memory each true war heros never made their heroism campaign issues. Like Gray Davis, Kerry bases his campaign on his Vietnam service.

And like Gray, if elected Kerry will be a boon to the trial lawyers, give huge pay hikes to the public-employee unions, heap mandates and regulations on private enterprise, and lead the US into a California-like liberal utopia. But US citizens can’t just move to a more business-friendly states like Californians have done in droves, making Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon more prosperous and more liberal.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:11 pm 87. John Piper:

richard mcenroe — follow up question, please:

What source confirms the boat was saved by actions of an enlisted man who steered the boat out of the ambush?

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:11 pm 88. Rick Ballard:

blogaddict, Jamie,

Just as an exercise – try and find a DNC/MSM story predating the California recall that predicted that Davis was going to get his butt kicked so hard that he’d be using his belt as a necktie. In paricular, Google up some DNC/LAT polls concerning the recall.

Remember, we’re still in warmup here. Labor Day is kick off.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:25 pm 89. blogaddict:

Jamie Irons–

My sympathies. I sometimes think there should be a support group in my area for recovered Democrats, or Scoop Jackson Democrats, or neocons, or whatever we are called. It is lonely, lonely, lonely.

One of the hardest things for me is my 24-year-old son. I’ve been working on him for a while, but he’s gotten so angry at me that the topic is banned for the moment (we have an otherwise wonderful relationship). At least he is young, which is a bit of an excuse–and I guess my 90-year-old mother’s excuse is that she’s old. Every time I bring it up with her (which I don’t do too much any more) she gets practically hysterical, even if what I’ve said is very mild. She asked me a couple of months ago, very tentatively and delicately, “Do you still [big pause here, fumble for words]–uh—ummm–not hate Bush?” Apparently she couldn’t bring herself to say the words “support Bush.” So, generationally speaking, I get it from both ends (although at one point I was heartened by my son saying “You know, I’m not as far apart from you in my thinking as you might think.”

As far as my estranged husband goes–the one who betrayed me–I’ve been working on him for a couple of years now and I think he’s about to “turn.” I got him to admit last night that Kerry is most likely a pathological liar and a very troublesome candidate for president. My husband may not vote for Bush, but I think he may not be able to pull that lever for Kerry any more. And he’s a person who has never in his life voted Republican (of course, so am I!)–

Of course, he’s just one person. I despair of reaching a larger group.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:27 pm 90. ambisinistral:

Why is Bush hated?

I think a good number of people on the left believe in the mantra of Root Causes. They see the extreme poverty of the third world as being caused in part by the affluence of the industrialized west. Further, they believe that as a result third world citizens have certain legitimate grievances.

While few of the expousers of the Root Cause would condon terrorism, they see it as largely a police matter to be managed while the underlying Root Causes are addressed.

I you believe that world view (and before I get tarred and feathered in here, I do not), then Bush’s actions are exactly the wrong things to do in the face of terrorism.

When you talk to dedicated leftists, Kerry lying won’t get much traction, but arguing the fallacy of the Root Cause might. Point out that the Arab world, the main source of Islamist terrorism, is awash with oil and the main problem is the distribution of wealth in the Arab world. The poor dears love equitably distributing wealth above all things, and you can really bind them up with that arguement if you’re careful not to let them detour you.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:31 pm 91. ambisinistral:

Speaking of Utah… This is a notion I’ve been fiddling with for a few weeks now; if you Google on Mormon and Supreme Court you get some interesting results from both Utah and Idaho. Largely they involve loyalty oaths that disavow Mormon polygamy.

The reason I find it interesting at this point is I suspect it may be the avenue to attacking the more unacceptable parts of the Moslem Religion inside the U.S. It seems to me that the penalty for apostasy, the treatment of woman, and the whole concept of Dar al Islam/Dar Somthingelse could be treated in the same manner as Mormon polygamy was handled.

Wonder how it would fly these days?

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:41 pm 92. MeTooThen:

Lola

For the first time I put election stickers on my car, a “Bush Cheney 2004″ and a “W ‘04″.

What I have noticed is that there are very few Bush or Kerry bumper stickers in this part of the world (Chicago) to be seen in general.

And yes, I have been honked at, given the finger, yelled at through the window, but thankfully no vandalism.

And yes, I find that I cannot talk about the war, the economy, stem cells, etc. anymore in public. The invective directed at me is explosive.

Oh well.

I can only guess at the reaction I will get when on November 3, when I sadly put the “Don’t Blame Me, I Voted for Bush” sticker on instead.

I despair.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:42 pm 93. NavySEAL Mom:

Car keying is our reason for not putting bumper stickers on our cars. Had it happen many years ago and won’t take the chance now.

I think I will invest in removable magnetic stickers this year!

BUSH/CHENEY 2004

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:44 pm 94. Percy Dovetonsils:

ambisnistral – good point. I think, however, that multicultural tolerance doesn’t extend as far as covering the Mormons. I have my reasons for that, but that’s for another discussion.

“I sometimes think there should be a support group in my area for recovered Democrats, or Scoop Jackson Democrats, or neocons, or whatever we are called. It is lonely, lonely, lonely.”

Sign me up. My neighborhood in Chicago is pure ABB/tinfoil-beanie land, and I’m starting to notice that people are looking at me funny when I don’t join in on their Bush-bashing. I’m already a suspect in that I supported the war.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:53 pm 95. Percy Dovetonsils:

Oops – make that 2nd line in the first paragraph, “I have my own ‘theory for why that is’, but that’s for another discussion.”

Just want to make clear that I’m not slamming the Mormons… which, according to the classic “South Park” episode, is the one true religion.

Aug 18, 2004 - 1:58 pm 96. bdog57:

ambisinistral,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints stopped the practice of plural marriage in 1890. Any person trying to engage in this practice nowadays is excommunicated. There are apostate sects which practice plural marriage, just (please) don’t call it “Mormon polygamy”.

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:00 pm 97. Jamie Irons:

Thanks, blogaddict, for the supportive comments…

So, you’re single?

(Punchline of an old Jewish joke; I’m Jewish.)

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:02 pm 98. Rick Ballard:

bdog57,

Thank you.

All,

You do know that the vast majority of people getting together on Sunday mornings are Bush supporters? If you look for big buildings with signs that have the word “evangelical” in the name and stop by on Sunday between 10 and 11:30 you’re sure to get free coffee, cookies and(sometimes) doughnuts and a friendly group of people who will commiserate with you about your work environment. If you find the idea of sitting and listening to the talks that precede the coffee and cookies too much to bear, drop by after the talk – the people will still be happy to see you. Big buildings are the key – the little buildings are full of people who will flat smother you if you’re not careful.

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:12 pm 99. RogerA:

Jamie Irons–also the punch line of a great old Miami Beach joke about seniors living together to pool social security checks–

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:18 pm 100. blogaddict:

LOL Jamie Irons. Nope, haven’t killed my husband (if that’s the joke you’re referring to)–

Not single yet, either, but I have a court appointment at the end of the month, and if I have the guts to go through with it, I will be single then. My husband and I have been married 30 years, so it’s a tough thing, and there is some good in our relationship, so I have gotten cold feet before about this. We’ll see what happens this time–I may get cold feet again.

And, by the way, while I’ve got your ear (if you’re in fact still there)–you may not remember, but long ago on LGF you challenged me to come up with a limerick with a single-word line (you had posted a medical limerick with a single-word line). I don’t think you ever saw my reply, but I saved it, and here it is, very much OT (it was sparked by a troll named “ahem,” who is featured in it, and the meter isn’t exactly perfect, but it was the best I could come up with):

Please, ahem!” we all scream in chorus,

“Go back where you came from. Ignore us!

You dimwitted troll,

like a thick-headed ol’

Pachycephalasaurus.”

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:20 pm 101. blogaddict:

Rick Ballard–What’s the solution for us lonely old Jewish neocon Bush-supporters? Don’t think the evangelical meetings would be quite the thing–

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:23 pm 102. ter0:

Completely OT and I have no idea what to make of this, but I’ve been on my typical election-time bumbper sticker watch. I don’t recall seeing a single “Kerry-Edwards” bumper sticker yet and just saw the first “Bush-Cheney 04″ one this AM.

Posted by: Knucklehead [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 18, 2004 10:45 AM

Knucklehead, I took this photo a few months ago and knew it would come in handy someday. Thanks

JFK bumper sticker photo

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:25 pm 103. david:

Its not an original idea, but I’ve listened to others provide this explaination: The fear of terrorism, the notion that our own children could be slaughtered by these 14th century barbarians, is not palitable in the American psyche. What to do? Blame George Bush for the entire issue, that way, it’s not real! Iraq was no threat; no WMD’s. They wouldn’t hate us if it weren’t for George. It reminds me of the logic of the boys in Lord of the Flies, sacrifice the one with reason, and the unknown can’t hurt you. Turn on your own, rather than face your fears.

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:29 pm 104. Pat Curley:

Kranish may have put the stake into Kerry with his article. As usual, the real headline is buried in the last paragraph:

Michael Medeiros, who served aboard the No. 94 with Kerry and appeared with him at the Democratic National Convention, vividly recalled an occasion on which Kerry and the crew chased an enemy to the Cambodian border but did not go beyond the border. Yet Medeiros said he could not recall dropping off special forces in Cambodia or going inside Cambodia with Kerry.

That just about kills Kerry’s chance of getting away with the Cambodia story, because Medeiros was on Kerry’s PCF-94 boat the entire time Kerry was. And we know that the Cambodia incursion did not happen on the PCF-44 boat because three of his crew members deny it. So what’s left?

The Mystery Boat!

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:29 pm 105. RogerA:

Blogaddict: Move to Collins Avenue on Miami Beach where the aforementioned punch line will become everyday parlance!

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:29 pm 106. Fresh Air:

Pat–

The mystery boat on the Duong Keo doesn’t work either. The worst setback for the Swiftees was in April after Kerry left (I think O’Neill was involved in this, BTW) on the Duong Keo. Read this description of the Operation Silver Mace disaster.

Between the hours of 1800-1900, 12 April 1969, at a well-camouflaged sector along the narrow Duong Keo, southernmost in South Vietnam’s vast system of navigable waterways, U.S. Navy PCF’s (”swiftboats”) then supporting Vietnamese Marine river operations under the aegis of SEALORDS incurred their most devastating and demoralizing setback to date.

The Duong Keo is nowhere near Cambodia either. Game, set and match. Kerry was not in Cambodia.

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:54 pm 107. jack Risko:

Roger:

1) I have looked into some of Kranish’s prior work, and he has enjoyed quite a friendly relationship with the Kerry camp over time;

http://www.dinocrat.com/index.php?p=374;

http://www.dinocrat.com/index.php?p=404

2) If I am correct, he completely buried the lede. Between Steven Gardner and Michael Mederios, whom he quotes in the last three paragraphs of his story, these two gentlemen completely cover (or nearly so) every day of Kerry’s service on swift boats. They both say they never went to Cambodia. Therefore, shouldn’t the piece lead off with that: Kerry’s shipmates deny there was ever a Cambodian incursion during his service?

Best regards,

Jack Risko

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:55 pm 108. ambisinistral:

To All,

I did not mean to offend any Mormons with my post and apologize if I did.

I am primarily interested in these Laws and Court Cases, not to criticise the Morman Church, but because they seem relevant to some modern issues with Islam. And no, I am not comparing the two religions — rather because a religion was involved, and indeed had portions of its doctrine restrained, they seem like they may be precusors of a looming conflict between the State and certain Moslem doctrines.

Here is a quote that outines the significant laws and cases, “In 1862, Congress enacted the Morrill Act, which made bigamy a felony and was designed to stop Mormons from practicing polygamy. The Supreme Court upheld the statute in Reynolds v. United States in 1879. But the Morrill act turned out to be an ineffective weapon against Mormon polygamy because it was difficult for the government to prove that the Mormon man was actually married to his various wives. In 1882 congress enacted the Edmunds Act which made “bigamous cohabitation” a misdemeanor. If proven guilty, the defendant was given a limited jail sentence and was thereafter barred from serving on a jury, voting, or holding public office. This law was effective, and around 1,300 Mormon men were jailed under it in the 1880ís.

On February 3rd, 1885, the territorial government of Idaho enacted the “Idaho Test Oath Law”. In order to vote, this law required citizens to swear that they didnít believe in or support an organization that taught plural marriage, thus effectively disenfranchising every Mormon from voting regardless of whether he personally practiced plural marriage or not. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld this law in Davis vs. Beason on the lawís 5-year birthday, February 3rd, 1890.

The U.S. Congress passed the Edmunds-Tucker Act in February 1887. This statute disincorporated the Mormon Church and seized its property with the exception of buildings used exclusively for worship (Edmunds-Tucker also tied up several minor loopholes from the Edmunds act). The church sponsored many business ventures during this time periodómost of its property was business rather than religious oriented, so this was a lethal blow to the church. On May 19, 1890, the Supreme Court upheld the Edmund-Tucker Act in a lawsuit”

By the way, considering some of the conversation on this board the following quote, from the same article, is a hoot, “It is important to note that not all Americans were against the Mormons in these Washington D.C. battles. The Republican Party stood united in their attack against the church under the banner of family values. In fact, “stamping out the wickedness of polygamy” was part of the official Republican platform in 1888. On the other hand, the majority of the Democrats defended the Church under broad principles of freedom.”

Aug 18, 2004 - 2:56 pm 109. Rick Ballard:

blogaddict,

Yechiel Eckstein is speaking at the Lake Shore Drive Synagogue on Sept. 4. Might be an interesting talk. I’ll bet there will still be coffee and doughnuts.

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:07 pm 110. Jamie Irons:

blogaddict

Thanks for recalling that hilarious LGF thread:

And, by the way, while I’ve got your ear (if you’re in fact still there)–you may not remember, but long ago on LGF you challenged me to come up with a limerick with a single-word line (you had posted a medical limerick with a single-word line).

And for those who may wonder what the medical limerick was, here it is in all its glory:

A man who had taboparesis

Said to his nephews and nieces:

“My brain, it may rot,

But thank G_d I’ve not got

Dysdiadochokinesis.

Now, blogaddict, as original and as good as your limerick is, the last line appears to be (forgive me!) defcient, in that, unlike the nonpareil

“dysdiadochokinesis” which is metrically

Dactyl dactyl spondee

(like the last half of a Homeric hexameter)

“pachycephalosaurus,” as fine as it is, is

trochee dactyl spondee

and is, sadly, one syllable “short” (as I justifiably might be said to be “one brick shy of a load” by anyone reading this ridiculous post).

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:10 pm 111. Jamie Irons:

I was trying to write “deficient”

but my capacity to follow the rule PIMF is at times, sadly, somehow lacking, inadequate, unsatisfactory, or wanting.

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:16 pm 112. Rick Ballard:

Jamie,

Some days priview is not our firend. Some days it doesn’t seem to know us. A fickle firend at best.

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:21 pm 113. Jamie Irons:

Rick:

Very humoruos!

(Some days it seems like all my firends are fickle!)

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:28 pm 114. Pat Curley:

Fresh Air, I don’t buy the Mystery Boat option either, but I’m trying to cover all the possibilities, and this is the only place remaining where Kerry can squeeze his mission in between folks who’ve already denied being in Cambodia.

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:33 pm 115. Syl:

Knucklehead

“I seem to recall wondering how a womanizer could be so popular with women.”

A woman just knows certain things about certain men and that’s the power we hold over them. NOW would hate me for saying this but we find it rather easy to manipulate a man who considers himself a ladies man. But that’s not what Clinton was. A ladies man only understands certain aspects of women and misunderestimates us, but Clinton held and wielded power over women which is quite another matter. It’s a different level entirely and not as easily discerned from afar. I think his popularity among many women stems from an inability of a lot of them to see the difference. But just being a ladies man isn’t necessarily a turnoff. They’re fun to play with.

Me, though I voted for him, thought he would be ew in bed. The mere fact that I even thought in those terms, means he projected sex to women. It never occurred to me to evaluate Reagan, for example, on that score. Nor Bush for that matter.

(Though another aircraft landing in that flightsuit wouldn’t be a bad idea. Come to think of it, the only people I’ve known that criticized the flight suit even more than the ‘Mission Accomplished’ sign were either lefty women or lefty gays. It seems to me, then, that the flightsuit projected an image so favorable to Bush that those who oppose him went crazy.)

I should say, of course, that I speak only for myself.

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:34 pm 116. Knucklehead:

Pat Curley:

Hmmm… Any wagers on which boat might be pressed into service as the Mystery Boat? I hereby nominate PCF-43

The commander of PCF-43 was Don Droz who was KIA in April of 1969. Kerry mentions him in an op-ed he apparently wrote in March of 2004 for Sooner Thought. The op-ed is short and, IMO, worth reading. This is the New John Kerry, same as the old John Kerry.

PCF-43 was apparently a regular craft on the Duong Keo River.

Consider the following exerpt by Philip Gourevitch from the July 26th New Yorker: (I don’t know how to stop the rampant trashing of some stuff into “?”, sorry)

Reading Brinkley’s book, one wonders why KerryÔøΩs campaign does not make more of another occasion when Kerry was sharply reprimanded for having stepped ashore. On a narrow tributary of the Duong Keo River, he and his crew came upon what looked like a deserted village. Then someone thought he saw a man running away. There was no response to a call for surrender, and Kerry took his gun and went to have a look. As he approached, forty-two VietnameseÔøΩwomen, children, and old menÔøΩappeared with empty hands raised. They were in desperate shape, hungry and sick, and although Kerry received radio instructions to leave them and get on with the business of killing enemy combatants, he herded the villagers onto boats and took them to the nearest American base to receive food and medical care.

So Brinkley has placed Kerry on the Duong Keo.

You might also enjoy this little tidbit from the New Yorker article where Gourevitch tells is how

…the physical sensitivity of KerryÔøΩs fine-tuned proseÔøΩhis acute alertness to the shifting elements of sight, sound, smell, and movement that compose his narrow riverine universe in the jungleÔøΩwhat is most striking about this passage is that so little of it is about him.

was used

On another occasion, [Kerry] wrote several pages about a mission to drop off Navy seal commandos close to the Cambodian border:

You’ll have to suffer through the entire piece to get at the several pages of Kerry’s incredibly sensitive and fine-tuned prose and acute alertness. What a fooking Loon!

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:35 pm 117. Terrye:

I think david is correct in his remarks concerning Bush hatred. People are scared. I read that 51% of Democrats think we are at least somewhat responsible for the attack on 9/11. They believe that if Bush is gone we can go to the Olympics without being booed, the Dixie Chicks won’t be heckled, terrorism will reced to the realm of law enforcement where it belongs and once Bush has returned to the land of Mordor, [or Texas] then all will be well.

I don’t think most people feel this way, I just hink the Bush haters are so crazed nobody wants to argue with them.

Aug 18, 2004 - 3:44 pm 118. Knucklehead:

Are those of you experiencing widespread BDS living in Blue States? (I sure hope the answer is “yes” since those are lost to Bush anyway. Doesn’t matter if they go 50.1% Kerry, or he wins a plurality there, or if they go 99% Kerry. Lost is lost.)

Another question – how strong do you think BDS is? If Kerry is fully exposed for the Loon he is, will the BDS sufferers still vote for him or cast a protest vote for someone else, or just stay home?

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:10 pm 119. JBR:

Knucklehead: A friend of mine who has BDS recently said that “Bush is the most morally corrupt President of my lifetime.” No way people who think like that vote for anyone but Kerry no matter what comes out about him. Luckily, this particular guy lives in a very Blue state.

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:24 pm 120. Terrye:

knucklehead:

I hate to be stupid, but what is BDS?

[and the above word in my last post was supposed to be think, not hink.]

Preview is for sissies.

This is a red state but I am proud to say that Kerry people are not subjected to the kind of hysterics one sees with the ABB people. They are strange and should not be in charge of their own check books, much less the country.

I know one lady that is sure Bush and Cheney were behind the attacks on 9/11. She also thinks that mammograms give women breast cancer and doctors want us to get sick so they can get rich. Like she is fond of saying…”Who benefits? You gotta follow the money.”

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:32 pm 121. Jamie Irons:

Terrye

Being a doctor does not make you rich.

It just makes you very tired at the end of a working day.

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:52 pm 122. Rick Ballard:

Terrye,

Bush Derangement Syndrome

Knucklehead is right concerning location. If you’re not talking about a battleground state, the level of BDS doesn’t mean much. And it is most fierce in the blue states.

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:59 pm 123. Fresh Air:

Knuckle–

Here in Chicago BDS is thriving. But my own survey indicates it predominates among people in their forties, fifties and sixties who yearn for the good old protest days when the cops around here doled out thwacks with the billy club.

I must say that BDS seems to be a common subset of the genus homo conspiratorus, as concepts such as jackboots stomping on apartment fire escapes, FBI agents filming patrons at the library checkout and Halliburton swindles seem to predominate in their discourse.

The collegiate BDS kids are just garden-variety fools, IMO. They really aren’t capable of arguing for their candidate; I think they think it’s cool to be “against the evil government” like their parents. One other thing I’ve noticed about the DNC/Kerry types (who are surely Deaniacs minus orange ski caps plus red t-shirts): They’re virtually all white.

Aug 18, 2004 - 4:59 pm 124. Jamie Irons:

Terrye:

Oh, and “BDS” is Bush Derangement Syndrome,” a seemingly terminal and untreatable condition where the sufferer is convinced that all that is evil emanates from Bush…

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:00 pm 125. Jamie Irons:

I see by the time I posted other experts had responded to your question, Terrye…

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:02 pm 126. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

A note on Kranish. He published a piece containing:

John Kerry flew Walinsky around New York to deliver speeches against the war. Kerry did not wear his uniform and did not speak at the events, but the experience helped convince him that he wanted to become a public leader of the antiwar movement. On Jan. 3, 1970, Kerry requested that his superior, Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr., grant him an early discharge so that he could run for Congress on an antiwar platform.”I just said to the admiral: `I’ve got to get out. I’ve got to go do what I came back here to do, which is, end this thing,’” Kerry recalled, referring to the war. The request was approved, and Kerry was honorably discharged, which he said shaved six months from his commitment.

This has two interesting items. Kerry was flying Walinski (and anti-war activist) to deliver speeches while Kerry was still on active duty. That was probably illegal.

It also has Kerry honorably discharged in 1970

when in fact Kerry was honorably discharged in 1978.

Kerry attempted to cover up the fact that he was in the military (Navy Reserve) during his anti-war years. He fooled Kranish very easily – anyone who knew anything about the service would have known this was nonsense.

I have found that Kranish tends to soft-ball Kerry, printing articles that touch the edge of damaging material but go no deeper.

Oh, and he ignored my email informing him that Kerry’s discharge date was not what he said.

Truth has a habit of avoiding the neighborhood of John Kerry.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:17 pm 127. penwil:

I live in Marin County, part of the San Francisco Bay Area, and I actually saw two Bush-Cheney bumper stickers today. Brave souls these, as I doubt their cars are going to make it through to the election without getting trashed, especially if Kerry starts slipping in the polls. BDS is a religion in these parts.

So if Bush gets 10% of the Bay Area vote, I’ll be surprised. Not that it matters as California is blue all the way, unless a terrorist attack shakes things up.

I have only one friend, and a husband, who are Bush supporters. If I didn’t have them to talk to, and this blog, I think I’d go insane. It’s very hard to stand up against an overwhelming tide of sentiment that is the opposite of what you know and believe. Even when you are utterly convinced that you are right.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:19 pm 128. Jamie Irons:

penwil

I have only one friend, and a husband, who are Bush supporters. If I didn’t have them to talk to, and this blog, I think I’d go insane.

If you shout in the direction of the Napa Valley, I might hear you…

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:27 pm 129. Knucklehead:

Terrye,

You’ve amply demonstrated (to this knucklehead, at least) that you run no risk of being stupid.

Penwil & Jamie Irons,

It is a bit of challenge to live in the Blue areas of the Blue States, isn’t it. Marin and Napa – you each have my sympathies but I do understand why you live there. Downright gorgeous.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:33 pm 130. Rick Ballard:

Penwil,

And I live out on the edge of Contra Costa and Katherine lives in SF. We’ve got’em surrounded!

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:35 pm 131. Jamie Irons:

One thing that characterizes BDS sufferers in all cases I’ve seen, and which is really crippling them without their being at all aware of it, is the sense that Bush is (and Bush supporters are) EVIL.

There are few things more seductive than a feeling of moral superiority.

Charles Krauthammer wrote a while back that conservatives tend to think “liberals” (I use the quotes because I still think of myself as a “true” liberal) are stupid; “liberals” tend to think conservatives are hard-hearted and evil.

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:38 pm 132. penwil:

Jamie and Rick and Katherine . . .

Wow, there are more of us out here in moonbat land than I would have thought.

And there’s a man several blocks down the street from me who proudly flies his Marine Corps and American flags every day. Somehow I don’t think he’ll be voting for Kerry, either.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:43 pm 133. Knucklehead:

I am unfamiliar with Neil Bootz’s blog, but IMHO he gets a double thumbs up and an LOL from me for this.

And this this from NJ. It doesn’t sound likely but NJ voters may well be the strangest in the nation and once they turn on a candidat he might as well be running from a pack of starving pitbulls.

Both are from NRO’s Kerry Spot.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:43 pm 134. ganzo azul:

Have you seen the effects of Kerry Derangement Syndrome? It manifest in a much different manner – this is too precious.

I shouldn’t laugh. McCurry will have his work cut out for him.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:48 pm 135. richard mcenroe:

John Peters ó

29 January 1969

PCF-94, under command of Lt. Ted Peck, is ambushed; Lt. Peck and David Alston wounded and evacuated, Alston to Binh Thuy [emph. mine -- CE]. Record posted at johnkerry.com, later removed:

Lt. Peck was the only officer on board PCF-94, as enlisted man Del Sandusky takes command of the boat following Lt. Peck’s wounding. The article confirms the disabling nature of at least Peck’s wound and the timing of the attack which wounded Alston:

In January 1969, Sandusky’s boat, PCF-94, came under attack during one such ambush. Lt. Ted Peck, the officer in charge, and another crewman were seriously wounded. Sandusky had to take command.

The boat was sinking and on fire, but Sandusky steered it back to safety. They counted 155 bullet holes in the boat and found a live enemy rocket in the main cabin.

Kerry posted this incident on his campaign web page, deleting Peck’s name and taking credit for the action himself.

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:53 pm 136. Knucklehead:

Rick Ballard:

We’ve got’em surrounded!

Don’t know if you saw the Band of Brothers miniseries, but you guys out there on the Left coast, particularly in the SF area, remind me of my favorite line from the series.

As the Germans launch the Ardennes offensive that we know as the Battle of the Bulge, Dick Winters leads his 101st Airborne unit into the breech. A fleeing soldier tells him that if he doesn’t get his men out pronto he’ll be surrounded. That’s when he says the classic line,

“We’re paratroopers. We’re supposed to be surrounded.”

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:53 pm 137. blogaddict:

To Jamie Irons:

Yes, I know, the meter’s slightly off. I am ordinarily a stickler for that sort of thing. But since I did it on the fly I still was rather proud of it

To Knucklehead:

I live in a blue state that is considered somewhat of a tossup, basically blue but too close to call. But I live in the truest bluest city possible within that state–a little bit of Berkeley on the Atlantic. One of the worst things is the gratuitous hateful and contemptuous comments people make to me all the time about Bush, when we’re not even talking about politics–they bring it up out of nowhere. It’s like an assault; you just can’t feel safe from it. I guess I just look like a classic LLL–and I don’t even HAVE Birkenstocks–

And as far as whether people who have BDS will just stay home and not vote if Kerry is proven to be a craven braggart liar who sold his country and fellow servicemen down the river: the answer, IMO, is a big big NO. That is what BDS is; the people have gone over the edge and are impervious to logic or facts. They believe Bush is close to Hitlerian. They truly honestly believe that, their minds are closed, and when they say “Anyone But Bush” they mean it quite literally–anyone. Anyone off the street, a felon out of prison, anyone (except perhaps Osama Bin Laden or Saddam, and I’m not 100% sure of that, for some of them).

Of course, if the NYT were to turn on Kerry, and endorse Bush, and pigs were to fly, I suppose they might actually change their minds–

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:54 pm 138. Jamie Irons:

It is a bit of challenge to live in the Blue areas of the Blue States, isn’t it.

Bluer than blue…

;-(

Jamie Irons

Aug 18, 2004 - 5:56 pm 139. Navy Mom:

I believe that BDS began in earnest after the 2002 elections. The hatred is directly tied to the loss of power by the Democrats. Neither national security nor support of the troops is important to those afflicted. Regaining power over the evil Republicans tops all.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:00 pm 140. PeterArgus:

Christ, I feel like I’ve wandered into an AA meeting. Perk up our day of shadenfreude will arrive on Nov. 3!

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:01 pm 141. richard mcenroe:

Blue Staters take heart. I attend a march weekly in Studio City CA, which is about as Blue State as you can get. Every week, I get one or more pedestrians and drivers who approach me and say quietly, “It’s good you’re doing this.” You’re not alone. Most folks don’t want to put up with the abuse and harrassment our moral betters on the left feel entitled to had out, but I suspect we will have much company on Election Day.

And ABB may not be the strong reed the Kerry camp hopes for, after the scorn I saw heaped on the Kerry (”the Other Fascist”) supporters in Santa Monica. Many of the shrillest BDS victims won’t vote at all and a lot of them can’t because the little snots are under age (hence the drive here in CA now to lower to the voting age to 16, god help us).

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:08 pm 142. wxjames:

Please read johnkerryquestionfairy.blogspot.com

More blood in the water, rather no blood in the water ’cause we haven’t been shot at yet.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:11 pm 143. richard mcenroe:

John Piper ó Sorry, my post above, about the action, was to you.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:14 pm 144. Knucklehead:

PeterArgus:

Perk up our day of shadenfreude will arrive on Nov. 3!

Spoken like a Red Stater ;>

It it a bit, what’s the word…. depressing to live in a Blue State.

People can seem downright crazy. As an example, a while back I had a conversation with a rabid BDS sufferer who blamed “the economy” (in the tech sector) on Bush. We went point by point about why the economy was the way it was. He could not dispute a single point I made – he knew the material we were going through as well as I do. The Perfect Storm, the Irrational Hiring Exuberance, the sheer stupidity that had gripped (and seriously hurt) the major local employers, the whole story. And I cornered him into admitting that none of that was Bush’s doing. It still didn’t matter, “Bush could have made the landing softer!” There’s nothing one can do.

Well, that’s no quite true. Turn one, get one to stay home, convince the ones one suspects of being “stay at homers” that staying home is their best choice.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:16 pm 145. Knucklehead:

But, but, wait a second… I thought Jimmy said this wasn’t happening?

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:22 pm 146. mcat:

Jamie, Penwil, Katherine, Rick–

With me here on the mid-peninsula by SFO, I think we’ve about got them surrounded! I’ve got my Bush/Chaney bumper sticker on my car and actually had a guy behind me at a stop light a week ago who held up a Bush bumper sticker and was giving me a thumbs up! Mostly people just seem to ignore me–I’ve just assumed they’re so astounded they don’t know what to make of it. Actually, I went and volunteered at the Bush HQ in Burlingame one Sat and was amazed at the number and variety of people that were there, but in spite of that, the majority of people in the Bay Area are in the ABB group so I am overjoyed whenever I run into another Bush supporter.

mcat

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:25 pm 147. richard mcenroe:

Um, remind me again: How Many Veterans Are There In This Country?

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:28 pm 148. Rick Ballard:

Drudge has a note saying that “Unfit” will be opening at #3 on the NYT bestseller list next week.

It’s still #1 at Amazon.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:31 pm 149. Terrye:

To all blue staters:

You poor babies.

Jamie, I know doctors are not making people sick so that they can get rich I just meant to make a point that a friend of mine [sorta] suffering from BDS [thanks for the definition] sees everything from a slightly distorted perpective. It is a thinking disorder. Too bad there is not a drug they can take.

The other day I was acosted by such a rabid BDS sufferer. She had just jumped all over her mother in law because the lady was going to vote for Bush. And then she said something to me and I told her that I too was a Bush supporter. She said Bush sent her brother to Iraq and Bush was a liar.

Well I told her that her brother was a volunteer in the US military and as such he was an adult who knew waht he was doing when he joined up and it was his job to go where the US military told him to go and that if she did not like that then she could go eff herself. I have relatives in Iraq too and I was not going to disgrace them by acting like effding idiot.

Sometimes it pays to be a mean old rip.

In other words don’t take any crap from them. Everybody has a right to their opinion and that includes Bush supporters who happen to live around Democrats who don’t know how to act like grownups. The very fact that people are afraid to have bumper stickers on their cars for fear what some idiots will do to their vehicles should make Democrats feel ashamed.

They are the Hitlerian ones who hate people who disagree with them and base that hate on unfounded prejudice.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:34 pm 150. PeterArgus:

Knuck:

I aint no redstater but thanks for the compliment. Long Island, NY is something of Republican enclave (we have vineyards too just like you left coasters!) but that makes no real difference – we are swamped by NYC.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:35 pm 151. Rick Ballard:

mcat,

Perhaps we should all meet and discuss what terms of surrender we would be willing to offer.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:36 pm 152. MeTooThen:

blogaddict & Jamie Irons

“A man who had taboparesis

Said to his nephews and nieces:

“My brain, it may rot,

But thank G_d I’ve not got

Dysdiadochokinesis.

LOL!

That might just be, the most clever and funniest thing I have ever read in the longest time.

Yes, neurology humor is very strange, indeed.

It’s an acquired taste.

Give me a little bit of time, and I will try to get that last line to work. I may not know the rules of the limerick, but I am facile with the neurology.

And yes, being a doctor per se does not make you rich.

It does make you tired.

Bone aching, mind numbing, empathy ruining, soul crushingly, tired.

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:42 pm 153. Terrye:

Who was the general who said “They got us surrounded. The poor bastards are in trouble now.”

or something like that.

My brother is a builder and has built several homes for doctors and he swears it is not the doctors who have all the money, but their spouses. Mick has a strange sense of humor.

He lives in Oklahoma. Bush 55.5 Kerry 38…

Aug 18, 2004 - 6:58 pm 154. frendlydude2k:

re: political bumber stickers

the most “partisan” car i’ve ever seen had a pow\mia banner in one back passenger window, a large portrait of GWB in the other, flew a plastic US flag from drivers’ side, israeli flag from the passengers, and had a load of republican oriented stickers all over. it pulled into a car parts store and out stepped a beefy boomer aged black man dressed like a hell’s angel (just not sporting the colors).

i doubt any ABBer’s will be running him off the road.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:01 pm 155. flenser:

“So what accounts for the extreme Bush hatred anyway.”

I think Walter Russell Meade touches on this when he discusses the the clash between “Fordist” and “millenarian” capitalsim. To condense a long story, the “Fordists” are supporters of Big Government, Big Industry, and Big Labor, as well as Big Education, Big Media, etc. “Millenarists” seek decentralisation of power, as in the replacement of the handful of major news companies by hundreds of smaller entities, or the elimination of the power of the labor unions.

To these people, the changes that they can see coming are hugely threatening. Imagine a world without a dominant MSM, where teachers are employed byand answerable to local school districts, where power is not centralised in the hands of a few poweful institutions. To some of us, this sounds terrific, but the “Fordists” cannot be expected to surrender their power without a fight. They see the world changing, in a way that is to their detriment, and as has been observed by many, their reaction is …. ummm… reactionary.

Rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my book) Bush and the GOP are seen by the devotees of “Bigness” as agents of change who threaten their cozy sinecures. I think this explains a large amount of the hatred they feel for him. I know this is true among the unions, who are willing to bankrupt themselves in order to get Kerry elected.

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:03 pm 156. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Terrye,

Those who suffer from BDS are people not infected with it. It’s one of those diseases that hurts everyone but the carrier and fellow infectees.

I haven’t run into too many of the BDS. A lot of people at work are going to vote for Kerry, but they aren’t Bush haters. They’re just wrong. One is eccentric and tends to go against the grain – he might vote for Nader. Another grew up in a union family in Buffalo and she always votes Democrat. Another knows almost nothing about politics but being from a Jewish family he just assumes that the Democrats are right.

Now on my storm chase, talking to people from other parts of the country, I encountered more BDS folks. One of them, a friend, and I got into an argument. I had an answer for all his points. After a while, he just threw up his hands and said (sarcastically) that I had all the answer. Included in the argument was a bet on Bush’s IQ. We bet $50 – he won if Bush’s IQ was under 110 (of which he was certain). When we got back to the hotel, I fired up the internet, pulled the SAT calculated IQs of presidents and Bush was 126 (JFK was 117). My friend refused to pay because it was a derived score, not a direct test. Of course, I wasn’t going to keep the money anyway.

I think a lot of the syndrome is due to cognitive dissonance caused by MSM lies and distortions. It’s hard to keep a consistent world view when you have to keep inventing details. If you trust the MSM, you’re world keeps changing in subtle ways as the errors in the false world accumulate.

The anger has several roots. If anyone has talked to a Howard Stern fan, it’s like talking to someone fresh out of est – totally brainwashed that Bush took away their right to listen to Howard (although somehow they do anyway). Many others are angry because he won in 2000 on a technicality (the Constitution) and actually behaves as if he is the legitimate president, with no accounting for his illegitimacy. The Dems early after the election suggested he should share power or something – they seem to think elections are like horseshoes. Then there’s the fact that Bush refuses to play the Washington game. He’s a confident Texan, he’s as comfortable with ordinary people as with the hoi polloi, and he says nucular (as does half the military, btw).

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:43 pm 157. MeTooThen:

Terrye

“My brother is a builder and has built several homes for doctors and he swears it is not the doctors who have all the money, but their spouses.”

LOL, again!

There is some truth to that. Especially if they are ex-wives.

Actually though, I have learned that is the builders who have the money

Aug 18, 2004 - 7:48 pm 158. Pat Curley:

Knucklehead, Kerry won’t get specific about the mystery boat; he’ll admit that particular memory isn’t seared–seared in him.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:12 pm 159. Sandy P:

NJ could be very, very interesting.

It is seared, SEARED, I tell you, into my brain that Schundler only lost by 2%, 51/49.

Now where is that river again?

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:33 pm 160. M. Simon:

John Kerry would make a great President if we need one who could covertly run guns into Cambodia while wearing his Magic CIA hat. It would be great entertainment too!

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:43 pm 161. M. Simon:

One of the anti-Kerry vets, John O’Neill, wrote the best seller “Unfit for Command,” which lambastes Kerry as a cowardly liar and says his claim to have spent Christmas 1968 on a covert mission to Cambodia was a lie.

The Kerry camp is now hedging on that claim, which Kerry once told the Senate was “seared” into his memory ever since President Richard Nixon falsely claimed there were no U.S. troops in Cambodia. In fact, Nixon wasn’t yet president.

The Democrat’s team yesterday held a press conference of pro-Kerry vets, but none of his crewmates was able to validate his Christmas-in-Cambodia claim.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/27075.htm

============================

John Kerry would make a great President if we need one who could run guns into Cambodia while wearing his Magic CIA hat. It would be great entertainment too!

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 8:49 pm 162. Katherine:

Penwil, Jamie, and Rick we have them surrendered indeed!

On top of that my husband is a Bush voter, too! So are my Russian neighbors, Nellie and Mike. We should form a North CA Conservative Liberal (aka conservative) cell and have a BBQ or a party or something! My treat.

Regarding the bumpers stickers in the City: most of the cars are strangely John Kerry sticker-free. There are more the No W sign, these being truncated leftovers from No War on Iraq. I also noticed few Bush stickers (brave souls, these! I am no risking my car.).

It was similar situation with the recall. Only at the very end pro-Davis stickers appeared. I am becoming more optimistic.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:00 pm 163. M. Simon:

Even hard lefties think Kerry’s story is fishy.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

================

Why does Kerry want to keep troops in Europe where we don’t need them and pull them out of Iraq where we do?

I don’t know either.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:06 pm 164. ambisinistral:

Kerry sure is strange in how he thinks his own words won’t be remembered. Since Bush has announced the plan to redeploy troops Kerry has been harshly critical of the plan to pull troops out of Korea and Europe.

Hmmm… wonder what his position eighteen days ago was?

“If the diplomacy that I believe can be put in place can work, I think we can significantly change the deployment of troops not just there but elsewhere in the world, in the Korean peninsula, perhaps, in Europe, perhaps,” the Massachusetts senator said in a series of US television interviews.

Incredible.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040801145739.phb234fu.html

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:25 pm 165. Fresh Air:

M. Simon–

We get the message already!

You don’t have to convince us. If it was within my power I would make Kerry’s records appear on Robert Novak’s desk tomorrow morning.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:30 pm 166. M. Simon:

I was a nucular reactor operator in the USN. I’m voting for Bush. I am a “combat” veteran too! I got combat pay. That proves it! Even though neither I nor my ship DLG(N)25 was ever fired on. I never knew I was a war hero. LOL!

========

Did you know that John Kerry was a secret agent?

He performed a mission in Cambodia so secret that only he has ever talked about it. It is so secret that his crew and all of his superior officers claimed it never happened.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release all the records.

Aug 18, 2004 - 9:36 pm

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