204 Comments

1. Mike:

That ad is devastating. The sound of Kerry’s patrician voice attributing the brutality of Ghengis Kahn’s hordes to his former comrades, juxtaposed with former POWs saying that Kerry gave our enemies what they would not under torture, is amazingly powerful.

I agree with Roger. How on earth did this guy think he could base his entire candidacy on his Vietnam service?

And, laughably, he says in his interview in GQ, that he’s tired of talking about Vietnam, would be happy if it never came up again.

To quote Bill the Cat, “ACK!”

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:42 am 2. Rick Ballard:

Polling dynamics have determined every move Kerry has made. The general public rates WoT/terrorism/intelligence issues as being much more important than any others. Terrorism beats the economy and other domestic issues by over 50% wrt importance. Kerry had nothing in the bag whatsoever to show folks concerning military or intelligence issues. What was he supposed to hold up and show? His opposition to every weapons system authorized in the US in the past twenty years? His proposal to cut the intelligence budget after the WTC I bombing?

His current reaction to the first ad is based on polling also. The polls we’ll never see are telling a story that the Kerry campaign doesn’t know how to counter. Chris Matthews is as connected a Dem pol as you’d ever want to meet. He’s tied to the MA mob through his many years of flacking for Tip. His incredible reaction to Michelle Malkin is the clearest indication I’ve seen to just how bad the unpublicized private polls must be.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:44 am 3. John Garland:

This may be old news to you but I think the public should know where the movies of Kerry trapsing around the jungle with a weapon (somewqhat like Bush criticized for traipsing around the carrier)come from. Some time ago a person named Thomas Vallely, described as a friend and supporter of Kerry, is reported (Boston Globe I think)to say they were staged rather than real pictures of combat situations etc. Certainly that adds to the view he had “a plan” to use the experiences for politics as did his successful reqwuest to be released early from the Navy to run for Congress.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:46 am 4. Mike:

Matthews seems to be on the verge of hysteria. His badgering of guests is worse than anything O’Reilly has ever done, and as I recall, at least O’Reilly ends by telling his guests, “I’ll let you have the last word.”

Matthews won’t let them have the first, middle or last.

The MSM is really on a bender. The Boston Globe’s Tom Oliphant was on The News Hour last night with John O’Neill. The condecension in his voice as he told O’Neill that the book’s allegations did not come “within a country mile” of the journalistic standards of his paper, left me howling at my TV.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:50 am 5. bdog57:

Mike,

To be within a “country mile” of the Globe’s standards it would have to be already-discredited Russian porn being passed off as evidence of American abuse.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:56 am 6. CalDevil:

The simple answer for why Kerry based his entire campaign on his 4 months in Vietnam more than 35 years ago is that he had no possible chance to be nominated otherwise.

My Democratic friends have started to question whether the nomination of Kerry was a mistake, but the unfortunate reality is that every other alternative for them was also significantly flawed.

To wit: Dean – may as well nominate Michael Moore; Edwards – 5 years in the Senate w/o a single notable accomplishment, trial lawyer, protectionist on par with Ross Perot and Pat Buchanan; Wes Clark – moonbat, why did Clinton fire him again? Hilary (I know she never actually ran)- she’s Hilary, too polarizing (to be kind)

The Dems created this problem for themselves more than 2 years ago when no one with any general election credibility (save Lieberman) stepped up to run.

As for Lieberman, these Dems would have never nominated someone as moderate as him. Unfortunately for Joe, he may have to come to the same realization about his party that Zell Miller did. Joe’s problem though is that he’s from CT and not GA.

Apologies for the long post.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:01 am 7. Charlie (Colorado):

Apologies for the long post.

<MelBlanc>

Ohh. He don’t know us vewwey well, do he?

</MelBlanc>

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:09 am 8. Dave Schuler:

There are other ways to handle that.

The best of which would be to get out in front of Mr. Bush on the subject of the War on Terror. Run on a platform of winning the War on Terror rather than managing it (as appears to be the current policy). How many Deaniac votes would this have lost him really?

In the final analysis what concerns me most about Mr. Kerry is regardless of what his own beliefs about the War on Terror or the war in Iraq may be what will he do when in the White House and surrounded by Democratic activities who are substantially farther left on this than he is?

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:09 am 9. Mike:

CalDevil:

“Edwards – 5 years in the Senate w/o a single notable accomplishment”

Didn’t Kerry produce two (TWO!) pieces of legislation in his twenty (TWENTY!) years in the Senate?

The guy has no record of leadership in Congress, and a terrible voting record on the issues.

I guess Vietnam is all he has, and it’s proving to be less than he and his supporters had hoped for.

Funny thing is, a mere twelve years ago, the MSM would have spiked this story, and there would have been no alternative means of responding.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:23 am 10. bdog57:

For the Kerry supporter in your life. Link

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:40 am 11. Lola:

Frankly, I’m just staggered at the meltdown. It’s like watching a train hurtling itself off the preciple. I was commenting to a coworker how I’d love to be that dark spot on the wall in many places today. If this guy is finding it hard to take the heat now, how will he be taking it when a certain foreign leader is posing his twitching finger tip on that red button?

I almost feel . . . but not quite, sorry for him. After all, he bought it on himself the moment he made that speech. He ought to have broadened out to include his work in the senate as proof of his qualifications for this position. Except that for the most part his congressional records are mediocre. And his campaign staff knows not what they’re doing – mixing him up with Bob Kerrey over a prestigious committee. If I ever ran for political office (not gonna do it anytime soon – I have too much on my plate for the next 40 years), remind me not to hire anyone who are currently running his campaign.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:49 am 12. Connecticut Yankee:

Apropos of getting inside Kerry’s head, the man does seem to have some serious weirdness problems. The guys at Power Line recently posted a photo of Kerry “… throwing a baseball on the tarmac in Long Beach, California, while the Secret Service stands guard, and Kerry’s limo and airplane wait for him to finish the baseball photo-op.”

On the tarmac, of all places, wearing a dress shirt and slacks rather than a T-shirt and shorts. “Really, strange as it may seem–almost every single day, the Kerry campaign pauses to give photographers a chance to take pictures of the candidate throwing baseballs and footballs. Never mind that he does this very poorly…”

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007513.php

The photo reminded me of Dennis Miller’s remark about the Democratic alternatives to Kerry–”I haven’t seen this bad a lineup since the ‘62 Mets.”

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:54 am 13. vnjagvet:

Check this out:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Vietnam-Vets-for-Kerry.html

What timing. A cynic could think this was paid for by those eeeeevil republicans. But somehow I don’t think so.

Whatchathink?

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:56 am 14. Pat Curley:

Kerry is obsessed with Vietnam; that much is evident. Think about his daughter Alexandra, making a movie about a girl whose father served in Vietnam. Remember, Alexandra was born in 1974, five years after Kerry’s tour of duty ended; by the time she could remember much it was nine years later.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:01 pm 15. David C:

I sometimes wonder if the Kerry “All Vietnam, all the time, and by the way, I served in Vietnam” strategy was born from the Democrats believing their own mythology about Republicans.

I.e., thinking like this: Anybody who would vote for a Nazi chimp is, self-evidently, a simpleton. So how to get simpleton brutes to vote for Kerry? Well, Republicans are all violent warmongers, so let’s highlight the fact that our guy fought in a war, and Bush didn’t. And we’ll paint reserve duty as draft dodging. So violent Republicans will say “Ugh. Bush no pick up club and hit people in Vietnam. Kerry pick up club, and was in Vietnam. Him good. Me vote Kerry.”

And since Republicans are stupid, and the media are on our side, there’s no need to worry about any of the self-evident contradictions in this strategy, because they’re only self-evident if you’re not a moron, and such people don’t exist on the other side, because they vote for evil chimps. Q.E.D.

No, I don’t really quite believe this, but there’s not a lot to rationally explain voluntarily making Vietnam *so* central to Kerry’s campaign, so I’m looking for whatever I can find.

It really is hard to figure. Yeah, Kerry’s kind of a hard sell, but 20 years in the Senate, even undistinguished years, can be sold with bland generalities, and the general assumption that he must have been doing *something* of note to get reelected many times: “But sir, Delta Tau Chi has a long tradition of existence both to its members and the community at large.”

I mean, it isn’t a *great* strategy, but it’d be serviceable – just talk up Kerry’s latest positions on “the issues” and breeze by attempts to discuss his past positions on those same issues.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:03 pm 16. PeterArgus:

The new ad is absolutely devastating. I was particularly impressed by the vets counterpositioned with Kerry’s testimony. One seriously wounded vet and 2 longterm POWs. The vet who refused to sign under torture a statement that he committed war crimes was the most powerful part. Now my question for all is: Pretend your Mary Beth Cahill. What is your strategy? You tried the ignore it and it will go away strategy. Now everybody is covering the swift vets (even it is being spun by the MSM it still getting heavy play which is not good). I have a picture of Carville and Davis doing their attack dog routine on one these POW vets. Somehow I don’t think that will work either

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:03 pm 17. Jay Rice:

Either Kerry was deliberately set up by his own party with bad advice, or the whole party is THAT divorced from reality. Take your pick.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:03 pm 18. TmjUtah:

Dave Schuler -

To define a winning strategy to win the war, he would have to categorically deny the Islamist’s right to kill us based on their cultural/religious motivations, identify such actors as evil, and pledge to pursue and eliminate them whereever they are found.

That’s the minimum. He’d lose a chunk of the moonbat vote just for that. The whole herd would thunder over the horizon if he even suggested that he believed that representative democracy and capitalism were the long-term solutions to draining the swamp.

There are two solutions to ending Islamist terror…and Bush has chosen the hard one by far if measured by the tools in our possession and historical precedent.

Thus, Kerry gets a pass from media and his base by simply posturing; they know he’ll cut and run in the end. The campaign’s hope was that getting his homemovies and medals in front of the public during and after the convention would pick off enough Only-Get-News-From-TV moderates to pad the ABB’s.

I don’t see it happening.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:06 pm 19. Percy Dovetonsils:

(Hey, let’s not knock Kerry for having few pieces of legislation to his name. Maybe it’s the crank that I am, but I’d love to find a legislator who resists the need to slap a law on every damn thing under the sun. There are many other reasons to dislike the guy.)

Penwil’s made this point on other threads, and I agree wholeheartedly – Kerry’s post-Vietnam “activism” is what’s going to kill his campaign. Much of what we’ve been discussing abut the Swift Boat vets is too much “inside baseball” for the casual observer, but Kerry’s condemnation of his fellow soldiers is easily understandable to all. It’s also totally repulsive to many voting Americans (except for the usual suspects, of course).

This is what will hang him. The delicious thing is, he did it all to himself.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:08 pm 20. Godzilla:

Re: Either Kerry was deliberately set up by his own party with bad advice, or the whole party is THAT divorced from reality. Take your pick.

First, I don’t think anyone life can be this diabolically clever, but if Hillary Clinton DID try ensure her chances for 2008, could she have planned anything better than what has happened. MSM will kill Kerry after he’s elected (which he won’t be, don’t worry), which would set her up for 2008. No matter what happens in November, it’s win-win for her. The Clintons can’t be this slick, though, right?

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:11 pm 21. heather:

Kerry has spent all of his political life in a cocoon provided by the Massachusetts Kennedy machine. He got in that lush job BECAUSE of his anti-war credentials. The fact is, that his WAR credentials stink didn’t matter back in 1971 – he did really well in the Senate Hearing and at the anti-war demos. And since then, he has flickered along being the JUNIOR Senator from Massachusetts.

In all that time, since 1971, he HAS NOT HAD TO USE HIS BRAIN. (I’ll give the guy credit that he probably, maybe, has one.)

More importantly, the Democratic Party has shown itself to be completely incompetent in this last cycle, and it should be thoroughly massacred in November – and only then will intelligent, smart people – unconnected with the Kennedys and the Deans etc – begin to pick over the shards and built a new and reasonable party that speaks to reasonable non-Republican Americans.

As to the Swiftees: the Boomers are having a great time – this election is ABOUT US!! Yay!! Our last hoorah, folks, enjoy it. It will all be over when Iran dumps its bomb on Tel Aviv.

And as to the Blogosphere and Internet: we have here a bunch of intelligent, INFORMED, interested people NOT PART OF THE WASHINGTON-NY-LA COCKTAIL CIRCUIT – showing the Media up, and doing a really competent job. Why, this O’Neill – a small time Texas lawyer, NOT ON WALL STREET, FORGAWDSAKE, has packaged a great series of attacks on the Holy Dem Party, and has managed to fend off the ’sophisticated’ attacks of the Great New York Times Itself. The stars are re-aligning themselves..

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:11 pm 22. thibaud:

Not too late for Hillary.

Unless sitting back, watching Kerry explode and setting her sights on 2008 was the plan all along.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:21 pm 23. thibaud:

Can’t have both Mikey’s vote and my vote, Johnny. Gotta choose at some point.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:23 pm 24. M. Simon:

I was predicting Kerry in the mid to low 30s last week.

I may have been too high.

I do not see how any human could vote for him after this.

And yes I have the Doors on and I’m fighting this war one last time. HoooooooYaaaaaaaaa.

Video link:

http://a1281.v125028.c12502.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1281/12502/v0001/eaglepub.download.akamai.com/12502/sellout.wmv

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:29 pm 25. ganzo azul:

Armchair psychological diagnosis is wrong, wrong, wrong but here I go.

5 or more of the criteria must be met

—Feels self-important – exaggerates achievements to the point of lying

—Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success & unequalled brilliance

—Is convinced that he is unique and should only associate with high-status people

—Requires excessive admiration

—Feels entitled

—Uses others to achieve his own ends

—Devoid of empathy

—Is envious or believes others are envious of him

—Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes

The Senator chose to base his campaign on his Vietnam service because is devoid of empathy; he coudn’t fathom how his actions were detrimental to other servicemen. The brouhaha over whether he tossed his or someone else’s medals should have been a red flag that his Vietnam years would be contentious. His arrogance and his sense of entitlement probably kept any sensible person on his staff from stepping forward and saying, let’s keep Vietnam out of the campaign altogether.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:31 pm 26. Sun-Tzu:

Reading these comments, I fear the prospect of a reverse Pauline Kael.

Yes, there is some agreement that Kerry’s running a very poor campaign.

Yes, more to the point of this thread, there are some devastating points being scored by the SBVFT’s ads.

Here’s the problem: Who are these points being scored on?

Among the denizens of this blog? Hardly. There weren’t that many who were likely to vote Kerry.

Among the Left blogosphere? Reading around, one comes away w/ the impression that the SBVFT could get General Giap’s deputy to testify that Kerry was worth three NVA divisions, and it wouldn’t make one whit of difference.

Among the general populace? Maybe. But as many have noted, the MSM is doing its darndest to ignore the SBVFT, except where they can show that they are liars, delusional, psychopaths, Republicans, or all of the above. (”Show,” not as in “evince proof,” but “show,” as in “portray in such a light.”) And, as folks have noted here and elsewhere, many an average citizen has neither seen nor heard much about the controversies that are discussed extensively here and elsewhere in the blogosphere.

So, I am not nearly as sanguine about these ads. I very much suspect that their impact is more among those who were already skeptical of Kerry. While there are some undecideds who have been swayed, one wonders whether they’re enough.

And I would suggest not becoming so optimistic, based on these ads, that the prospect of “President John F. Kerry” becomes “inconceivable.” Because I do know what that word means…..

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:40 pm 27. M. Simon:

vnjagvet,

I went to the NYT url you sent and absolutely couldn’t believe it.

This is so tone deaf as to be beyond belief. Talk about the inabiliity to put yourselfin your enemy’s shoes. They are in Vietnam favoring Kerry the same day the swifties are talking about being tortured by the North.

Un fookin believeable. This is way beyond belief. Way beyond. This put the stake in the heart of communism. Once and for all.

This election will be topical in a thousand years.

Simon

Video link

http://a1281.v125028.c12502.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1281/12502/v0001/eaglepub.download.akamai.com/12502/sellout.wmv

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:44 pm 28. Jay Rice:

Godzilla,

WE think the Kerry campaign focus on his service was bad. Just plain dumb. Old Lefty Dems probably thought it was a cynical joke to have an anti-war candidate run as a war president. Mainstream Democrats have got to see the dicotomy in their party and worry about the seeming ascendancy of the Old Left they hoped they could ignore and hide away like old Walter Cronkite transcripts. And young Democrats will be introduced to their party’s participation in a horrid assault on Vietnam Vets less than three months after celebrating The Greatest Generation.

I figure the Dem party would be smart if they cut their losses – the Ted Kennedy branch of their party – by lumping all the Lefties together, funding them, giving them bad advice, watching them sink, then calling the whole thing an apology. Sorta.

This isn’t about Hillary. She isn’t a viable candidate with her negatives. It’s about what the Democrat party has become and how they might think they can retrieve some semblance of credibility. IMHO

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:46 pm 29. Rick Ballard:

PeterArgus,

The magic moment for Mary Beth has passed. This isn’t MA and the machine isn’t functioning. Had Kerry truly “charged the ambush” within 48 hours (with DNC/MSM help) he might have avoided this. As it is, he’s scheduled to address the American Legion with this new ad running. In Cincinnati 6,000 out of 15,000 showed up for his speech. How many will show up in Nashville?

I really never thought that this issue would actually define the campaign. I figured that it would run for 10 days or so and fade from lack of coverage. Now I’m wondering if we will see a “health crisis” and Kerry withdrawal. Right now, I’d rate the possibility at 1 in 10 but if the polls swing as heavily over the next two weeks as I anticipate (more than 10%) then the party will start leaning on Kerry rather heavily. A 10% gap on Sept. 4th would just have too large an impact downticket.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:47 pm 30. M. Simon:

Sun-Tzu,

Have you seen the ads? To vote Kerry means favoring the torture of Americans. What is the market for that? 20%? 30%? Not much more.

Video link:

====

Video link:

http://a1281.v125028.c12502.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1281/12502/v0001/eaglepub.download.akamai.com/12502/sellout.wmv

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:50 pm 31. TmjUtah:

Sun Tzu -

The post-convention period for Kerry was supposed to be run by the media. Remember the ’strategic pause’ to conserve his funds…? I believe the campaign was just accepting that TV time doesn’t do anything for Kerry, even if it isn’t actually detrimental to him.

MSM would replay his ‘Reporting for Duty’ schtick and the 527’s would hammer Bush. That was the plan. The Swifties haven’t had any effect on my vote. They probably won’t on the ABB crowd. That’s just fine.

The point remains that the post-convention period was intended for undecided voters – intended for them to find something to vote FOR in favor of John Kerry. John Kerry, Strong Leader.

That’s all over now.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:52 pm 32. Pat Curley:

Sun Tzu, the ads are working. The WaPo reported yesterday that Kerry went from 46%-46% among veterans to 55%-37%. That’s why the attack dogs have been unleashed. But the Swiftees are media savvy; today they unveiled the ad about Kerry claims of atrocities, and the media are going to have a very tough time contesting the statements made there. They also released another chapter in the book that also deals with Kerry’s Senate appearance in 1971.

Kerry’s bleeding badly; that’s why his defenders are starting to froth at the mouth. Matthews was in total meltdown mode last night with Malkin.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:54 pm 33. Roberts:

Matthews should be horse-whipped for his treatment of Michelle Malkin and the fact that he won’t be is yet another sign of our cultural decay.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:56 pm 34. Sun-Tzu:

M. Simon:

Yes, I saw the ads. On my computer.

How many people still rely on old media, MSM if you will, for their information? How many of those people will see the ad, versus hearing about it via the MSM (”an anti-Kerry group aired another ad today discussing Senator Kerry’s actions in Vietnam, over thirty years ago….”).

Yes, the numbers are dropping. Yes, it’s heartening that the MSM is forced to respond (and I am very bemused at these op-eds and editorials responding to stories that the papers themselves didn’t cover).

But do you think Roger, our gracious blog-host, is more or less influential than the NYT’s news feed for a swing state like MO? Or LA?

Moreover, how many people will zone this ad out, partly b/c the MSM doesn’t cover it, and partly b/c the educational system in this country has relegated Vietnam to a war “long ago, in a land far away”? When more people are being taught about Manzanar than Iwo Jima in their studies on World War II (Instapundit mentioned this, a few months back), I suspect that it’s far more likely that folks will dismiss all this (or chalk it up as “candidates pitching mud”), than sit up and take notice.

Mind you, M. Simon, I’m not advocating this, I’m not saying the SBVFT are wrong, I’m not saying Kerry will win. I’m only saying that pinning hopes on this ad (or even a full series of ads) is liable to produce disappointment.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:57 pm 35. M. Simon:

Rick B.

I’m predicting Sept. 3 – 4 for structural reasons (crack propagation in the nation state Gemany Aug 1918) but I agree with your estimate.

Just before a rout the forces are milling and undecided on what to do. The alpha male has lost control and its

sauve qui peut

not quite yet. But soon. Soon.

I’m sure the swifties have one or two more attacks if necessary. Probably not.

–==–

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 12:59 pm 36. Sun-Tzu:

Pat Curley and Roberts:

I wonder if you will be proven right.

Those attack dogs can be pretty scary, especially when they wield a fair amount of firepower through broadcast TV and the newspapers/newsmagazines.

And it will only get worse.

My only thought is Cromwell’s admonition: Trust in God, but keep your powder dry.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:00 pm 37. Fresh Air:

Was that really Kerry’s voice on the ad? If so, did you notice how he pronounced “Jin-jis Khan”?

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:06 pm 38. Fresh Air:

Sun-Tzu–

The trouble is those guys are legitimate war heroes. Unless the MSM can somehow prove all of them are lying, the counterattacks will fail.

Rick B.–

Kerry will not pull out. No way! This is the chance he’s been waiting for his whole life. He doesn’t even know how bad it is. Presidential candidates are so surrounded with yes-men and yes-women that the awful news probably won’t ever make it through to his coccoon. People like Shrum are blowing in his ear telling him how great things are going, nodding along as he gripes about the “Republican smear machine,” and sharing a double-vanilla-skim-latte (no foam) as they go over his redecorating plans for the Oval Office, while his advance people carry on about not having enough red balloons for the rally that is now curiously short of a full audience.

You gotta hand it to Shrum, not many people in politics have a perfect 0-8 record.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:14 pm 39. Dave Schuler:

TmjUtah:

I think you’re probably right. However, Bush’s plan (if that is, in fact, still the plan—I’m beginning to wonder) addresses only one of the critical success factors that made 9/11 possible. There are others and it would speak pretty poorly of the Democratic Party if they couldn’t find one approach that would fit within the party orthodoxy.

heather:

As to the Swiftees: the Boomers are having a great time – this election is ABOUT US!! Yay!! Our last hoorah, folks, enjoy it.

You optimist you. Mr. Kerry is not a Baby Boomer. He misses by three years. Count on at least four or five more election cycles in which the Boomers are hoorahing. I’m not looking forward to it much.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:18 pm 40. Sun-Tzu:

Fresh Air:

Let me reiterate that I am not trying to grind an axe here. I am not suggesting that the SBVFT are liars, nor am I suggesting that the people in the ads are not heroes.

What I am wondering is, “If a hero speaks, but the MSM resolutely ignores him, will he be heard outside parts of the blogosphere?”

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:18 pm 41. Rick Ballard:

FA,

That’s his voice. I believe that the sequence remarks is just interrupted – not ellipsed.

Pat C.,

There is no rebuttal to this ad. It is John Kerry speaking and it “personal opinion” by vets personally affected by his words and conduct. There are no circumstances or facts to dispute. I’m not saying that there will be no response to the ad but it is logically impossible to rebut your own words and someone’s reaction to them. All that’s needed now is a picture of Jane Fonda sitting on his lap while Ho Chi Minh lights his cigar.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:19 pm 42. exguru:

“Why would the Senator choose to base his campaign on his Vietnam service?”

I think it has to do with Rice’s comment above using the phrase, “divorced from reality.” He applied this phrase to the Democratic Party, but I think it applies more to the candidate. The only explanation that can be is that he has been telling these lies for so long, and so loudly, he has come to believe them. When I look at him now in counter-attack mode, he really looks and sounds sincere. He has succeeded in deceiving himself.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:19 pm 43. bdog57:

Mary Beth Cahill vs. Karl Rove?

Hmmm…couldn’t have called that one.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Rove’s a freakin’ genius. 2002 midterms established it. The re-election is re-affirming it.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:20 pm 44. Dave Schuler:

Sun-Tzu:

What I am wondering is, “If a hero speaks, but the MSM resolutely ignores him, will he be heard outside parts of the blogosphere?”

The fascinating thing about it all is that the blogosphere is speaking more loudly and with greater influence with each passing day. The case of the political cartoon cited by Glenn Reynolds (?) that made no sense unless you’d been following the discussion of Mr. Kerry’s Cambodian Christmas in the blogosphere is a wonderful case in point.

We have not yet begun to blog.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:21 pm 45. RogerA:

I put myself on record many threads ago agreeing with jdm’s assessment that this story did not have legs–Boy was I wrong (first time since 1947 as I recall). The story was picked up on the local LA TV show this AM and the Diane Rehm show callers on NPR did nothing but talk about it. The story is out there–and what struck me most about listening to the “commentators” on the NPR piece was how precious little they knew about the facts of the story. What this tells me is that there are a whole lot of people who do get the story outside the MSM. And yes, I am aware of the problem of anecdotal evidence.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:22 pm 46. Pat Curley:

Sun-Tzu, sage advice. The victory dance comes after the election, not before.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:22 pm 47. penwil:

The ad certainly is devastating, and this time it’s not a he said/he said thing. Kerry’s testimony is a fact–it’s there in the ad in his own voice. A POW says he was tortured by the enemy to get him to say what Kerry was saying for free. Who’s going to call this guy a liar? In fact, who’s even going to dare call him a Republican shill?

There is no doubt in my mind that this ad has the power to sway undecideds and even a significant number of conservative and moderate Democrats. As to how much it will actually hurt Kerry, though, is going to depend on what kind of exposure it ends up getting. Apparently CNN has run or will run the ad on the air sometime today, and as part of the story, too–so it’s getting aired for free. I rather suspect Fox and MSNBC will do the same. And you can bet Rush and Hannity, et al will be playing it many, many times during the coming weeks. That’s on top of the paid-for exposure it will be getting in the swing states.

So we’ll see, and it’s going to be interesting. Did any of us think two weeks ago that this story would not only still be out there on August 20, but on the front page of the NYT, no less? Okay, so the NYT printed a perverted version of the story, but that was to be expected. The astonishing thing is that they were forced to go near it all.

But they were forced to. And that’s a huge story in and of itself.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:26 pm 48. Pat Curley:

Fresh Air, yes that is how he pronounced it; I think it’s a Boston Brahmin way of avoiding the gutteral “g”; sort of like the way they say “Awnt” instead of Ant (as in Aunt May).

Rick Ballard, love that image!

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:28 pm 49. ambisinistral:

Sun-Tzu,

Oh, I think this will keep growing. First they attack Kerry with seemingly their weakest point, his record in Vietnam. Doubts still arise. Kerry responds by puffing up his “I am the noblest of warriors” image even more.

Ah, but what wonderful timing for them. Yesterday he responded by snarling turning the boat around and charging his enemies. He seethed at his patriot heroism being questioned. Today he is slammed with his own voice calling his own band of brothers war criminals.

BTW, in not many more days the Republican Convention is going to convene. The convention that protesters have pledged to disrupt. Ya think the image of a young protesting Kerry might get mixed in with any protest caused chaos in NY?

This will get worse for him.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:30 pm 50. ambisinistral:

Must. Proof. Read. Better.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:34 pm 51. Countertop:

Beyond what has been stated so far, I think the factor that presents the most long term political damage for Kerry is the participation of Paul Galanti in this ad.

As I state at the countertop-chronicles, there is simply no way to paint Galanti – one of John McCain’s best friends since the days their stay in the Hanoi Hilton together, the Virginia Chair of McCain’s presidential campaign, and Democrat Governor Mark Warner’s appointee to the Virginia Department of Veterans affairs – as a Bush stooge.

His participation with the Swift Boat Veterans in such a public manner indicates that John McCain is not opposed to efforts to attack John Kerry as the traitorous anti war zealot as opposed to the efforts to question his service.

The New York Times and the Washington Post are going to find this incredibly difficult to spin away.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:34 pm 52. Fresh Air:

Penwil–

I read somewhere today that Kerry’s blog only had 34,000 more visits than the Swiftvets (1 million for Kerry and 966,000 for Swiftvets.com–don’t know what period).

The Swiftees’ website was totally jammed today. The ad download was very slow, even with DSL. I think you will see a tremendous amount of additional contributions coming in and this ad will get a lot of exposure, both paid and unpaid.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:34 pm 53. RogerA:

The SBFFT story will be, I predict, the lead story on all the Sunday talk shows–the MSM cork will definitely be out of the bottle by Monday.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:35 pm 54. R C Dean:

If, and its a mighty big if, this ad gets enough play, it will go off like a nuclear bomb in absolutely critical demographics (think Reagan Republican/blue collar Dems) in battleground states (Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, New Mexico).

It neutralizes what Kerry has made the whole basis for his campaign – his Vietnam service – by drawing attention to what he said about that service as soon as he came home. The line about him giving the VC for free what others were tortured for is haunting. Pure genius.

And the set up has been beautiful. They drew Kerry out of the weeds with the first ad, and just as the media blockade was crumbling, they unleash this haymaker.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:46 pm 55. Charlie (Colorado):

Who’s going to call this guy a liar? In fact, who’s even going to dare call him a Republican shill?

That one’s easy: Al Gore, Begala, Carville, Brazille, u.s.w.

Now I’m wondering if we will see a “health crisis” and Kerry withdrawal.

This is a question for a lawyer, and I ain’t one, but… could Kerry withdraw at this point? I’m pretty sure that it’s too late to change the candidate in Colorado, at least. I imagine the NJ state supreme “court” could be convinced to do a Toricelli, but if I’m right, many or most states would have to leave him on the ballot. If he withdrew, I think it might just mean the Democrats woul.d be candidate-less in those states in which it’s too late to change.

This is a route to near certain electoral defeat.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:51 pm 56. BobT:

All:

I hate to be another (?) wet blanket, but Sun-Tzu is correct. The only people that matter are the undecideds, and if the MSM can make the Swifties seem sufficiently “political” the undecideds will tune it out. That the Swifties are emerging with a second ad certainly gives an impression that there’s some ‘behind the scenes’ organization to this. On some nonpolitical fora I frequent, there’s a real idea that the NYT piece “sinks” the Swifties.

Remember “Troopergate”?

M.Simon and Rick B:

Uh… step away from the keyboard. The Democrats will not throw Kerry over the side, nor will he jump. He may well get elected.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:53 pm 57. Knucklehead:

I was very surprised by the reaction I had to that ad. JMO, but this will be devastating to anyone still on the fence re: John Kerry.

As for people seeing it… send out the link.

Aug 20, 2004 - 1:54 pm 58. Pat_Henry:

Roger,

I think at this time the guy who is crying is Wesley Clark. He is hunting Chris Lehane. Why? If all this Kerry lies were out in Jan., then the nominee would not be Kerry. Right?

Yours,

Pat.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:02 pm 59. penwil:

Apparently, Galanti, the tortured POW who delivers the Kerry gave it away for free line, is a personal friend of John McCain and worked on McCain’s 2000 presidential campaign. What do you want to bet he’s all over cable news in the coming week?

If–and I agree it is still a big if–the ad, and the story attached to it, gets enough play and Kerry starts slipping in the polls, then the irony will be espeically delicious that a group of 250 veterans with a war chest of relative peanuts was able to do to Kerry what Michael Moore and his propaganda flick, the billionnaire Soros and Moveon.com, and the DNC and the MSM combined haven’t been able to do to Bush.

What’s that old Scottish saying . . . something about a one man in the right can stop an army?

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:04 pm 60. asher813@aol.com:

Roger, thanks for yet another great analysis. The Democratic Party is getting set to implode as more moderate liberals look with disgust upon the moonbat-infested edifice that was once a bastion of sane liberalism.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:05 pm 61. M. Simon:

Bob T.,

So far the effect of the swifties campaign has pretty much followed my expectations. (See Roger’s first post on the issue (about 3/4 Aug). What I said then was that WE could move the story. And WE did.

In addition I was predicting a couple of days ago the swifties next move. Which you have seen today.

Kerry is not coming back. He aids torturers. We will get most of the middle and some of his base. No one wants to be associated with a moral pygmy.

–==–

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:07 pm 62. Rick Ballard:

He may well get elected.

On the basis of his proven leadership abilities? Or do you think his sterling legislative record will carry him through? Or do you think that ABB = 50% plus 1 electoral vote? BTW, I said I thought it was a 1 in 10, that means I’m speculating on the far side. OTOH, I haven’t seen any pictures of Siamese John gazing into each others eyes or heard an undying declaration of fealty from Edwards in a bit. Where is Edwards on this? Where is his attack on the evil Vietnam veterans?

Charlie(C),

What would happen if a candidate had a cerebral hemorrhage? I’m no lawyer either but I don’t think the election would be postponed.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:07 pm 63. RogerA:

Drudge is reporting Kerry campaign is filing an FEC complaint.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:14 pm 64. David W Justus:

I think that the whole Vietnam hero thing is something that is deeply imbedded in Kerry’s psyche. He wanted to be a war hero and when he came home he found that that was too unpopular. Now is his chance to get something he felt he deserved 30 years ago.

More thoughts on that here

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:20 pm 65. so it begins:

RogerA,

If that is correct, the Kerry Campaign just started a battle they didn’t want to start:

MR. McCLELLAN: We’ve already said we weren’t involved in any way in these ads. We’ve made that clear. I do think that Senator Kerry losing his cool should not be an excuse for him to lash out at the President with false and baseless attacks. I mean, where has the Kerry been — Kerry campaign been for the last year while more than $62 million in funding through these shadowy groups has been used to negatively attack the President. The Kerry campaign has been noticeably silent, and in many instances, they have actually fueled these kinds of attacks by these shadowy groups that are funded by unregulated soft money.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:20 pm 66. RogerA:

SIB: true enough; Drudge is light on details, but the allegation seems to be “illegal ties to the RNC.” Perhaps the Kerry campaign is basing its complaint (if true) on the basis of NYT reporting! That would be the ultimate irony. More to the point, I do hope this complaint brings up the whole issue of 527s and the DNCs use of them–I agree with you: this is shooting yourself in the foot (or getting shrapnel in your a**)

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:24 pm 67. BobT:

M.Simon:

Don’t get me wrong, I see little redeeming social value in a Kerry presidency now. But I just don’t see the tent folding up.

Rick B.:

Apologies, your “1 in 10″ didn’t register as I read the comments.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:25 pm 68. so it begins:

RogerA,

Oh, definitely think they are going to the FEC – it would be out of step for them no too. But they’re going to lose that battle BIT TIME! The only way they would be able to prove they were not lies is by signing the 180 and it contradicting EVERYTHING. By the way, I thought they were going to sue all the stations that ran the original ad. Did they back down? Yep, it was a losing battle from the beginning. The reason they are not backing down now is because this is the last nail in the coffin.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:28 pm 69. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I agree about tempered optimism. Powerful forces are on Kerry’s side – very richly endowed 527s, the MSM which may be looking at this as their Alamo, and the whole Democratic Party apparatus.

There are also external forces, who judge Kerry liked we do: quitter. Iran, Baathists and other forces in Iraq, oil producers that are hostile (Iran again, Venezuela, maybe Russia), oil consumers with a similar attitude (China), and of course Al Qaeda and informal terrorists here.

These are powerful ads. The question is: who sees them or hears them. I suspect that in many areas they get a bit of exposure and then word of mouth gets a lot more people interested.

Do people think the SBVT are the only 527 out there? I am helping another one – Vietnam Vets for the Truth and I think there are other veteran groups. SBVT is in the spotlight because of their direct knowledge of John Kerry’s service. Other groups, like ours, were created just to counter his outrageous anti-war charges.

From Vietnam Veterans, all I hear is anger against Kerry. Lots of us didn’t know until this year that it was Kerry who made those remarks while in the VVAW.

For those who imagine this is a Republican attack machine, they have to understand that none of these veterans groups would even exist if the candidate were not John Kerry. That’s the factor that makes such a big lie of the charge of “Republican operatives” or whatever.

I’m sure the big donors would put their money into other groups if Kerry wasn’t the nominee, but they wouldn’t be angry veterans groups.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:28 pm 70. penwil:

Drudge is also linking to a Yahoo news (from AP) that quotes a poll saying that half the voters questioned had heard of or seen the first ad. Half is a whole lot, considering that the mighty NYT didn’t deign to write word one about it until today.

Also, again according to Drudge, Unfit for Command has over 550,000 copies in print. That is huge for any book.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:30 pm 71. so it begins:

Drudge headline:

KERRY FILES FEC COMPLAINT OVER SWIFT BOAT ADS

should add… “TWO WEEKS LATE.”

HA! Suckers!

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:31 pm 72. Southpaw:

The MSM will rescue Kerry again on this ad – I’d wager that within a week we will see a several thousand word story in the NY Times on atrocities comitted by US troops in Vietnam which will support Kerry’s 1971 testimony. They’ll bring up My Lai, the recent Pulitzer Prize winning Tiger Force feature from the Toledo Blade, the Phoenix Program, etc which will frame the argument that the Swift Vets are upset with Kerry for telling the truth. Chris Matthews will shout that there is a difference between testifying to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and being tortured to tell the North Vietnamese what they want to hear. Most of the press who were around then remain anti-Vietnam war and they will be able to defend this much more easily than the first round of allegations so I don’t think this ad will be as effective as the first one.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:35 pm 73. ieddyi:

Wondering if the swifties have another ad planned(possibly focusing on the cambodia in christmas story) There plan and execution has been flawless

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:40 pm 74. pdq332:

Responding to various commenters on the NYT article today: The NYT piece does much damage to Kerry and not so much to the SBVs. The SBVs are not running for president, after all; Kerry is. What the NYT article does is give the SBVs a place in the “paper of record” and now they have to be dealt with. They are an albatross around the neck of John Kerry, put there by initially John Kerry himself, and now with the imprimatur of the NYT upon it. The NYT even got rope-a-doped by Thurlow when he called their bluff today and signed to forms to release his records.

BobT: Kerry doesn’t have a prayer to get elected unless his campaign starts handling issues professionally. For starters, why did he paint Vietnam so large into the picture of his life at the convention? The arrival in a boat, the “reporting for duty” crap, the fake combat movie, even the “band of brothers” just set him up for what any professional campaigner must have known would be coming: a full out attack on his Vietnam record. And guess what? He had skeletons in his foot locker. And what was it all for? To compare himself favorably to a late 1960’s Bush that nobody cares about?

When the SBVs came out with their charges, Kerry should have started distancing himself from Vietnam issue entirely. And he should have rebutted their particulars with generalities. Instead, they have descended to the SBVs’ level and are fighting specifics with specifics. “On the watery borders between Cambodia and Vietnam” is the only place Kerry is going to get elected this year.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:41 pm 75. RogerA:

You may be right, Southpaw–but we also have Kerry as a war criminal: killing livestock and torching villages–I dont see how he comes out good in any of this.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:41 pm 76. so it begins:

Southpaw,

Its too late – It’s WAAAAAYYYY more effective than the first one for anyone who sees it.

By the way, everyone, speaking of Hilary being behind this meltdown of the Kerry Campaign, didn’t Kerry say he had a conversation with Bill a number of months ago, who was very “supportive” and gave him some “advice”. Was the adive, “Yeah, stick with the ‘vietnam’ thing. That’s the ticket!”

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:42 pm 77. ambisinistral:

Bear in mind, ABB voters don’t need to switch their vote. They can also just skip voting this year.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:42 pm 78. so it begins:

ambisinistral,

exactly.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:44 pm 79. RogerA:

Here’s a very scary thought: in the event Kerry is elected, the people running his campaign will presumably play central roles in his White House.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:45 pm 80. Charlie (Colorado):

What would happen if a candidate had a cerebral hemorrhage? I’m no lawyer either but I don’t think the election would be postponed.

I didn’t ask if it made sense, I just wondered what the law was.

Given the Toricelli example, I wouldn’t say it’s impossible … but I bet, in 50 states, that it’d be real hard.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:46 pm 81. Charlie (Colorado):

What would happen if a candidate had a cerebral hemorrhage? I’m no lawyer either but I don’t think the election would be postponed.

Uh, you’re not suggesting that someone would hit Kerry in the head to change the nominee, are you?

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:47 pm 82. youwouldno:

First thing- Kerry is not going to withdraw, no matter what.

One thing that needs to be kept in perspective is this: Kerry is a crappy candidate- WITHOUT any of this Swift Vets stuff. A long-time Massachussetts Senator with no accomplishments and no charisma? Please.

His conduct in Vietnam and before the Senate only make things worse. Perhaps more importantly than the direct damage they do, the ads and the surrounding controversy puts Kerry on the defensive and keeps him off message. It also keeps the papers scrambling to defend him, instead of attacking Bush with that space.

Tactically, Kerry is indeed in extreme trouble. He won’t drop below 40% on election day, but he might not be much higher either. My prediction hasn’t changed since the day Kerry was nominated; the Swift Vets aren’t so much sinking Kerry’s campaign as making sure it never rises.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:48 pm 83. so it begins:

And for those of you who have seen “Napleon Dynamite” and enjoyed it as much as I did, I have 2 words to describe those running the Kerry Campaign:

Friggin’ idiots!

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:48 pm 84. so it begins:

youwouldno,

Brilliant analysis and well written, especially:

“…the Swift Vets aren’t so much sinking Kerry’s campaign as making sure it never rises.”

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:50 pm 85. mrp:

Mike -

I also watched Tom Oliphant’s pathetic performance last night. Instapundit has some good links with transcript excerpts.

What I found most distressing was that Mr. Oliphant failed to make an important disclosure. Now, remember how he kept making the case for the “daily press” as the best arbiter for political issues?

Then why didn’t Tom Oliphant disclose the fact that his daughter is a “writer” for the Kerry-Edwards campaign?

From the linked “The American Prospect” column:

I like Kerry a lot. I admire how he got to this place. And I think he is well-prepared to preside over the sausage making that lies ahead of him if he wins this fall. It is likely to be a tough grind — more or less the way he likes it. (His successful discussions with John Edwards about a partnership displayed a sensible pol with the confidence to reach beyond his familiar world; the fact that my genius daughter helped discover ìtwo Americasî for Edwards and now writes for the ticket only proves again that she has figured things out faster than I have.)

Granted, Mr. Oliphant is an op-ed writer, but for him to make the case that the “daily press” knows best is a hoot.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:54 pm 86. Old Grouch:

Addressing Roger’s question above:

“…why [did] the Senator chose to base his campaign on his Vietnam service[?]“

My take is that the “war hero” angle was an attempt to innoculate Kerry against the attacks on him by various veterans’ groups that the campaign knew were coming. Certainly the Swift Vets book was no secret, and neither is the Vietnam Veterans for Truth group that John Moore has pointed out several times in threads here. If the campaign hadn’t brought up Kerry’s combat time, no one would have remembered it; they’d be remembering the Senate committee testimony and the Dick Cavett debate. The template, as it were, would have been “Hero POWs Attack Vietnam Protester.” Not a good thing for a presidential candidate with natiional security a major issue.Instead, they grabbed the nettle and emphasized Kerry’s war service. The plan was to proclaim Kerry a hero and then rely on a cooperative press that would (1) bury the issue of his anti-war activities, and (2) if it wouldn’t stay buried, marginalize the opponents who brought it up. The template: “Medal-Winning War Hero Attacked By Malcontents.” (And this is exactly what the press has been doing: The Boston Globe story that painted the swiftie as repudiating his affadavit, the Washington Post story that went after John O’Neil, and today’s NY Times article (”it’s all a Republican plot!”) are the move to stage 2.)Unfortunately for the campaign, it appears that they didn’t anticipate a direct attack on Kerry’s war record. Nor did they anticipate the collaborative work by the blogosphere in parsing all the charges and countercharges. And needless to say, they’re still being blindsided by the talk radio+blogosphere assault on the MSM. And now it’s going to come to a boil over the issue of Kerry’s patriotism and betrayal of his comrades… just what they’d hoped to avoid.Somebody needs to be taking notes for a “Making of the President, 2004.” Even so far, the story would be fascinating.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:54 pm 87. Sun-Tzu:

Southpaw:

Well, the press will cover Vietnam now, thirty years later, as they did then: an utter fiasco.

Of course, the reality may not quite mesh with that, but who cares, eh?

–Hue—rubbleized by the US military’s indiscriminate use of firepower.

–Tet—a glorious victory for the VC.

–Phoenix Program—CIA death squads.

Let us never mention the 3000 or so dead South Vietnamese civilians in Hue, executed by the VC for the crime of being teachers. This, as part of an offensive that gutted the VC infrastructure. Phoenix=death squads? One wonders what to make of their VC/NVA counterparts.

But then, we’ve already seen the MSM in action in this regard. Does anyone remember “Operation Northwind”? You remember, the use of nerve agents by the US, an operation that CNN covered in depth? Except it never happened.

Or how about the coverage of the “atrocities” at Nogun-ri during the Korean War, complete w/ tearful vet apologizing to South Korean survivors? Except that it was a tragedy (soldiers shooting by accident), not an atrocity (soldiers cold-bloodedly executing civilians). And the chief accuser, Ed Daily? Not at the incident at all. Not that the press paid nearly as much attention to his fall, as they did his earlier tales.

So, Southpaw, I fully expect the press to promulgate as many stories about American atrocities in Vietnam as they can possibly find. I suspect some might even be true.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:54 pm 88. david:

RE: CNN’s Wolfe Blitzer. Now we know what the MSM’s spin is going to be, its essentially to take the focus away from SBVT charges and focus on the “web” of connections between them and the Bush Campaign. I think this is likely to fail completely, and will only further the demise of MSM as they openly demonstrate their OWN web of connections! Now I know that in the two camps, no votes will change, but I worry about the media’s ability to cast such a confusing shadow that the swing voter just gets disgusted and stays away from the polls. Maybe the Kerry campaign is willing to drive away ALL swing voters in the hope the hard-core ABB’s will comprise more voters than Bush supporters. Very interesting!! Also, is anyone familiar with the FEC investigation that will now proceed? Will they actually address content of the charges, or is it strictly testing the theory that Carl Rove did it?

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:54 pm 89. Rick Ballard:

ambisinistral,

Exactly. It definitely isn’t going to drive up support for W but a whole bunch of Kerry’s always weak support will just stay at home. The broken glass ABB’ers are 13-15% but there’s another 20% that are not “solid” at all. I don’t quite get the FEC suit. It won’t hold up and the attention that it draws to the ads and book just can’t help.

BTW ALL, the ads can only run for about 12 more days. I doubt that there will be a third. I’d expect money to go into a wider distribution of this second ad.

BobT – S’OK. Not like I haven’t done the same thing about 1100 times.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:54 pm 90. Richardphx:

There are some points here that call out for clarification. First, doesn’t anyone here feel Kerry’s very opening words are being presented in a misleading context? The exact quote as spoken by Kerry begins:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads….

To begin Kerry’s quote without context is an act of deviousness, is it not? After all, it leaves the decided impression that he himself is making the charge of cutting off ears, et. al., against his fellow soldiers, while in reality he is telling the committee that these are statements made by the veterans themselves. So right away we are on a dishonest footing. Put into context, the ad is almost totally neutralized, its fundamental point — that Kerry got up and accused his fellow veterans — shattered.

Relatedly, a maddening tendency I’m seeing is to indict the MSM (as you call it) for not telling the Xmas in Cambodia story, or at least for not telling it the way you feel they should tell it, i.e., in a manner that will portray Kerry as a liar unfit to serve as president. This goes against the function of the media, which is not to regurgitate any party’s talking points, but to inform the public of news and, in some cases, to provide the evidence necessary to determine what actually happened. The implication that the presses should stop because some largely discredited men being directed by Republican PR dowager Merrie Spaeth and age-old Kerry bete noire John O’Neill merely because they assert Kerry may have misstated the date when he said he was in Cambodia some 36 years ago….well, it’s just a touch peculiar. Normally the press wouldn’t even consider such nonsense.

The reason the mainstream media are being more cautious and resistant to such blatant smokescreens, I surmise, is that it learned from Bush’s earlier smokescreen attacks against John McCail — also organized by, you guessed it, Merrie Spaeth! One needn’t be a Rhodes scholar to see that this is coming out at a most critical moment to distract the voting public from issues that truly matter to them, like healthcare, our involvement in Iraq, tax cuts for the rich, the bloated deficits, the poor jobs reports. Little things, like that. But instead, they want us to focus on the trivial, the nonsensical, the irrelevant. Now, if they really had solid evidence, as opposed to personal recollections that seem to shift daily (see today’s NYT article for proof) by men who hold a deep personal grudge against Kerry based on a (mis)perception he betrayed them — if there was real evidence, this might be a story. But it would have to be evidence of something significant, not that he was in Cambodia a few weeks later than he said. For the media to print such nonsense would make our newspapers a pile of worthless grafitti.

Well, anyway, commenters here are calling the ad “devastating.” I say it’s just like all the other bush attack ads (and it is that, whether he says so or not), dishonest and disingenuous and orchestrated to evoke a gut emotion (and in that respect it works, at least for those who don’t think for themselves and look deeper behind the blanket allegations). But most of us are immune to it by now. The undecideds don’t care; they’ll vote the economy, and the war will be a big part of that. You can high-five one another about what a great ad this is, but it’s just a slick example of old-fashioned smear. Throw as much mud as you can against the wall and hope some of it sticks. One day, and not that long from now, we’ll look back at this with an incredible sense of shame and sadness, and wonder how it was possible.

Aug 20, 2004 - 2:55 pm 91. Rick Ballard:

“we’ll look back at this with an incredible sense of shame and sadness”

Does the frog in your pocket have a name?

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:03 pm 92. Richardphx:

Well Rick, I’m afraid that’s the kind of response I was expecting, though I was hoping maybe I’d be surprised.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:08 pm 93. geoffg:

Sorry if this is a repeat, but I’m only halfway thru the comments.

Today, Malkin was interviewed by Rush for 40 minutes. Rush played the audio clips of Matthews’ meltdown – actually us older Boomers would have called it outright rudeness.

Get this: Mathews told her to leave the set at the commercial break.

Together, they gave Mathews a well-deserved spanking.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:11 pm 94. RogerA:

Richardphx: The thrust of the NYT article is that is funded by republicans–that is a blinding flash of the obvious; I just bet that if the NYT put the same amount of effort into looking at the Democrat 572 they would find they were funded by democrats.

Your point about taking Kerry’s statement in context is indeed interesting: you may be a bit young to remember, but the VVAW did not investigate these charges but simply took these folks at their word. I will tell you that US policy and commanders neither condoned nor encourage atrocities.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:11 pm 95. Southpaw:

RogerA – you may be right, the anti-war faction may decide they can’t vote for a self-admitted war criminal. On the other hand, they may not place blame for war crimes in Vietnam on LBJ/Nixon rather than Kerry and the people who served. Let’s not forget their off the charts Bush hatred either.

so it begins – I’m not so sure. The first ad is a direct hit on Kerry’s credibility, the second one doesn’t argue that Kerry’s testimony was false but that they are angry at him for saying what he said. A few MSM pieces on some Vietnam atrocities and the issue will be that the SWIFT vets are angry at Kerry for telling the truth. I just don’t think that will get very far with swing voters. There’s also the “cultural factor” that the swift vets are up against – Vietnam has been portrayed in films and books as a dirty, brutal war. Kerry’s 1971 testimony will not seem out of place to those whose only knowledge of Vietnam is Platoon and The Things They Carried.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:16 pm 96. vnjagvet:

Richardpx:

I think you have made the best argument that can be made by the Kerry camp in response to this ad. In fact it sounds as if it has been well crafted by a professional with the same type of experience (except on the other side) that you attribute to Ms. Spaeth. I predict we will be hearing many of these talking points soon.

I have read many times Mr. Kerry’s full testimony. It is widely available.

It has always seemed clear to me (and I think to reasonable people) that his intent was to vouch for the “testimony” he related to the Senate committee as proving the allegations he so calmly listed. This, in turn, evidenced his clear intent to convey the impression that the commission of his litany of war crimes was widespread and pervasive among all of our troops over the years they were sent to and served in Vietnam.

This impression, of course, was false.

I believe this ad accurately conveys in one minute the deep and abiding contempt many Vietnam Veterans feel about this very public moment in Mr. Kerry’s career, and the reason they feel justified in feeling and expressing that contempt.

That truth (and it is powerful truth) is something that Mr. Kerry’s supporters must wrestle with in the next few months. That truth is the primary reason I have never been one of Mr. Kerry’s supporters for president.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:21 pm 97. Rick Ballard:

John Kerry smeared, maligned, denigrated, lied about, and dishonored every Vietnam vet through his willful neglect in verification of accusations made in the Winter Soldier episode. He is not fit to serve and I have no problem saying it.

Have you read Kerry’s first book, “American Soldier”? There are plenty of excerpts available. Hiding behind “he was only repeating” what other s “testified” to is as shabby a tactic as any of your assertions would be if they were true.

Take a look at what you quoted and tell me what “testified to” means. Where are those valiant witnesses that Kerry quoted? It was made up crap then, he knew it at the time and he has never repudiated the lies he told. That is what is worthy of incredible shame and sadness. Not his inability to confront the depth of his own depravity.

In short – shove it.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:21 pm 98. Bostonian:

Sun-Tzu

I fully expect the press to promulgate as many stories about American atrocities in Vietnam as they can possibly find.

That would be extremely stupid of them.

Such a campaign would be viewed as an hostile action by the many Vietnam vets in this country–and probably all the other vets, too. And they would not take it lying down.

Kerry would not survive the resulting backlash. The media might not, either.

But the MSM might actually be stupid enough to go that way. Not stupid–let’s say “insulated from reality.”

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:22 pm 99. doublecola:

I donít know, you add these up and you have to ask some honest questions about what the truth in this matter really is.

Is John OíNeill a truthful man?:

Link…

Link…

Link…

-

Hoffmanís Allegations

Link…

–

Elliottís conflicting statements:

Elliott had previously defended Kerry on that score when his record was questioned during his 1996 Senate campaign. At that time Elliott came to Boston and said Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. And as recently as June, 2003, Elliott called Kerry’s Silver Star “well deserved” and his action “courageous” for beaching his boat in the face of an ambush:

Elliott (Boston Globe, June 2003): I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that. . . . (It) was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you usually find no more than two or three people there.

-

On Thurlow:

Thurlow’s citation – which the Post said it obtained under the Freedom of Information Act – says that “all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks” after the first explosion. The citation describes Thurlow as leaping aboard the damaged PCF-3 and rendering aid “while still under enemy fire,” and adds: “His actions and courage in the face of enemy fire . . . were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.”

A separate document that recommended Thurlow for that decoration states that all Thurlow’s actions “took place under constant enemy small arms fire.” It was signed by Elliott.

Plus, if there was no enemy fire, why did Thurlow keep his Bronze Star?

Link…

-

And, along with todayís NYTimes article, this link provides a good overall summary:

Link…

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:26 pm 100. vnjagvet:

Does anyone know how many Vietnam Vets are now alive?

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:26 pm 101. ambisinistral:

“To begin Kerry’s quote without context is an act of deviousness, is it not?”

Richardphx,

Well, I think they only have a limited amount of time, so they tailor the ad to have the maximum effect they’re looking for. I’m sure they hope that the circumstances of Kerry’s antiwar activities get further discussed. In fact Kerry and his group made a large number of war crimes charges, none of which they ever made any attempt to substantiate.

It also might interest you to know that their are films of John Kerry saying that he himself committed warcrimes. I’m sure the Swift Vets hope that gets discussed as seriously by the MSM I’m sure you’ll agree it should.

The Christmas in Cambodia story is relevent, particularily in light of his later war crimes charges, in that he claims that was the night that he had an epiphany. That was the night when he realized how wrong the Vietnam war was. He has repeatedly sold the Christmas in Cambodia story as a major turning point in his life, so yes… I do find it odd, and very puzzling, that it never occured.

Perhaps the press should report news instead of filter it for us poor dimwits?

As for your last paragraph, we shall see…

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:27 pm 102. RogerA:

DC–you are using the wrong talking points–they were for a few threads ago. Check Richardphx for current talking points.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:29 pm 103. doublecola:

Sorry about the last post…no links and all. Another long day. Have a great weekend all!

DC

I donít know, you add these up and you have to ask some honest questions about what the truth in this matter really is.

Is John OíNeill a truthful man?:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408180004

http://mediamatters.org/items/200408130010

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/08/06/kerry_smear/

-

Hoffmanís Allegations

http://mediamatters.org/items/200406020006

Elliottís conflicting statements:

Elliott had previously defended Kerry on that score when his record was questioned during his 1996 Senate campaign. At that time Elliott came to Boston and said Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. And as recently as June, 2003, Elliott called Kerry’s Silver Star “well deserved” and his action “courageous” for beaching his boat in the face of an ambush:

Elliott (Boston Globe, June 2003): I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that. . . . (It) was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you usually find no more than two or three people there.

-

On Thurlow:

Thurlow’s citation – which the Post said it obtained under the Freedom of Information Act – says that “all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks” after the first explosion. The citation describes Thurlow as leaping aboard the damaged PCF-3 and rendering aid “while still under enemy fire,” and adds: “His actions and courage in the face of enemy fire . . . were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.”

A separate document that recommended Thurlow for that decoration states that all Thurlow’s actions “took place under constant enemy small arms fire.” It was signed by Elliott.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

-

And, along with todayís NYTimes article, this link provides a good overall summary:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:35 pm 104. Rick Ballard:

vnjagvet,

I believe that John Moore uses a figure of 3 million and notes that 8 million in total served during that period. I don’t recall him sourcing the quote but he is very thorough. I’m sure he’ll drop by shortly and provide a rebuttal to Richardphx that will provide additional food for thought.

RogerA,

That was funny.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:35 pm 105. AST:

Join the protest.

I just donated $50 to the Swift Boat Vets to keep their ads coming. I guess that makes me a front for the Bush Campaign.

I prefer to think of it as a protest against censorship by the liberal media. I don’t know how else to stand up to these creeps. The masks are off, now. These Ellsworth Tooheys have dropped all pretense of objectivity and impartial coverage of the news. I want to make them pay.

If you all do too, go to http://www.swiftvets.com/

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:36 pm 106. so it begins:

southpaw,

That’s an extremely cynical analysis of the American electorate.

Here is a poll question that should be asked:

Who do you respect more?

a) Vietnam Veterans

b) Kerry campaign leaders

Anyone want to dispute the high majority (at least 80-20) would be for “a)”? There is a lot more respect for these guys than you give this nation credit for. It is being proven and it will be confrimed Nov. 2.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:38 pm 107. doublecola:

DC–you are using the wrong talking points–they were for a few threads ago. Check Richardphx for current talking points.

Talking points–Is that what facts are called?

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:42 pm 108. vnjagvet:

Roger A.

Thanks.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:48 pm 109. RogerA:

DC: my point was that those things you call facts have been discussed on previous threads–this thread is about the SBVFT second ad. It has to do with Kerry’s 1971 testimony. If you have any facts relevant to that, please air them.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:50 pm 110. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Richardphx

We may be in the same town, but not the same world.

I’ve studied the Kerry speech for some time. There is no question that Kerry is telling the world that all Vietnam Vets and Soldiers still in the field engaged in atrocities as normal practice. Look at the clause where he claims that a monster composed of millions of damaged vets will be created – damaged by what they were forced to do. That isn’t dependent on Winter Soldier. Look at the other charges Kerry made. I suspect you will be hearing about them in the future. Also, are you aware that not a single one of the Winter Soldier allegations could be verified, but during the attempt a major number of them were found to be misrepresenting their service (like not having been to ‘Nam at all, or not even being in the service, or having been to ‘Nam but not when and where their allegations took place).

Nope, the ad is honest. The claims of the POWs are honest (we’ve known about them for some time – want some more? I’ve got one by a POW who was also a Senator).

As to this being a Bush attack ad, that is utter nonsense. That would require cooperation, which these days, thanks to our idiot senator, would be felonious.

Read all of Kerry’s speech that day. It doesn’t take him long to get away from masking his statements behind the pretenders at the Winter Soldier “investigation.”

You suggest a fight on levels that really matter – that’s what Democrat’s say when it is shown their guy is lacking in the character department. Bush and Kerry are talking about that. Character counts. If you elect a person whose only principle is opportunism, then you elect a man with unpredictable behavior. That is why character counts.

But I remember the vicious attacks against Bush’s service. Those attacks had the full MSM pack in full howl, looking everywhere. As a former military aviator with both active and reserve time, I knew from the start that it was all BS. Hell, there’s no way anyone can prove that ever attended my last duty station – and I never even got paid. If I had been killed on my last flight (as I almost was), they would have had trouble accounting for me.

The Dems have spend many tens of millions running vicious attack ads against Bush’s honorable service. With all that money, and no scruples whatsoever, they were unable to find one person who had a problem with Bush’s service. And yet SBVT has 60 people who served with Kerry who have problems and have signed affidavits. I was surprised when I found out they were going after his service record – I had no idea that even his in-country service had been inflated, but I have personally interacted with enough of these people to know that they are, as a group, trustworthy.

Furthermore, this attack didn’t come out of nowhere. SBVT gave a press conference on May 5 which outlined some of their charges, including the historical and stunning event of the entire chain of command of an officer denouncing his fitness for service. The MSN, as expected by the Kerry crew, mostly ignored it. I did a nexis search, and the only TV network to cover it was CBS, and they ran a smear piece. AP spiked it entirely. In other words, the MSN performed their expected function for the Democrats, minimizing and distorting anti-Kerry charges.

So the Swiftees had to make an end run. O’Neil and Corsi wen’t off to write the book. At some point, ads became possible. The launch of the book was also ignored by the media (even while it was #1 at Amazon), but the ad was too effective.

Other than blogspace and email, only Fox viewers would have any idea that this tidal wave of accusations was coming.

If I subscribed to one of the newspapers, I’d be damned upset that they kept this from me.

As for the Christmas story, nice excuse, no cigar. The fact that a Senator has been lying about a story he had used to attack US policy is, in fact, news.

You say: Republican PR dowager Merrie Spaeth and age-old Kerry bete noire John O’Neill

Spaeth is a PR person. She is the widow of O’Neill’s partner. Obviously O’Neill already knew her, and in fact used her in his private law practice. Do you expect him to go hire a Democrat PR firm?

John O’Neill did not spend the last 33 years stalking Kerry. Rather, he formed a successful law firm. To hear the media (and you), O’Neil has been after Kerry forever. Furthermore, he is hardly a Republican operative. According to what he told me and others, if Edwards had been the candidate, he might have voted for him. In the past he has supported people from both parties and Perot (I have to subtract some points for that one).

You imply that the remembrances seem to change daily. Well, the MSM is succeeding with you. Study it a little more carefully and you would stop saying that. 60 witnesses, one guy who changed a couple of words but not his damaging-to-kerry conclusion = change daily? Pathetic.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:50 pm 111. penwil:

Richardphx: ” . . . it leaves the decided impression that he himself is making the charge . . .

Okay, I’ve read the whole thing and that’s still the impression that I got. To quote Kerry’s very words right back at you: “I would like to talk, representing all those veterans . . .”

From Webster’s,

represent, vt. : To bring clearly before the mind: cause to be known, felt, or apprehended. To serve as sign or symbol. To exhibit by delineation, depiction, or betrayal. To exhibit to another mind in language: give one’s own impressions and judgement of. To serve as a speciman, example, or instance of . . .

Richardphx, you might want to read Galanti’s account of the “impression” Kerry’s words apparently had on his North Vietnamese captors, since they showed those very words of Kerry’s to the man while they were torturing him. Now there is war story that one could probably say was seared, seared into the memory. I rather expect Galanti will be “representing” that story a number of times over the coming week(s).

A man–who by the way, was in the same prison camp as John McCain–who looks into a camera and talks about being tortured ain’t nohow, no way going to come across as “dishonest and disingenuous.”

All:

Have you ever noticed how the dems talking points almost always contain the phrases, “everybody knows” and “most of us think/believe/feel”? Like all they have to do is declare that it is so for it to be so. It’s gotten to where every time somebody lays one of those phrases on me, my knee jerk reaction is think, Don’t go counting this lady as part of your group think, buster.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:52 pm 112. R C Dean:

doublecola – you are missing the real question, which is:

Is John Kerry a truthful man?

It is impossible to reconcile the John Kerry proudly waving the flag of his Vietnam service last month with the John Kerry retailing bogus stories of American atrocities to the Senate in the ’70s. Was he lying in the ’70s, or at the convention? I defy you to put together an account of his actions that is consisent and that doesn’t portray him as a hollow, opportunistic shell of a man.

You can attack the people behind the first ad all you want, but the second ad really puts the question in a form that cannot be avoided.

At this point, I give the benefit to the Swifties because they won the first round of he said/he said, on Christmas in Cambodia. Don’t even start to try to discuss what happened around the medals until Kerry releases all of his records.

Aug 20, 2004 - 3:56 pm 113. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Vietnam Counts

These are rough numbers

In Combat: 500,000

In Country: 2,500,000

In Area (I don’t remember the term): +500,000

Total 3,000,000

Total Vietnam Era Vets 8,000,000

I don’t know if the latter includes National Guard.

Kerry had two terms – one in area on the Gridley, which should have earned him a Vietnam Service Ribbon, and on (very short) on Swift Boats, which would have counted for both a Vietnam Service Ribbon and another ribbon that I don’t know what it is called (green and white is all I remember, mine was destroyed in a house fire 30 years ago).

In area included people in Thailand and some Navy people.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:04 pm 114. Southpaw:

so it begins -

Do you mean Vietnam Vets in general or the Swift Vets For Truth in particular? I don’t understand what such a poll would prove – I’ll bet most people who are voting for Kerry know, love and respect a Vietnam vet and would vote for him rather than Kerry campaign leaders in this poll. That doesn’t mean they would change their vote for Kerry, so I don’t see how this translates into a Bush victory on November 2.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:06 pm 115. Barry Dauphin:

I just caught Shields and Kristol on the Newhour with Lehrer. Shields was apoplectic about the swift boat vets. He was extremely defensive, even for him. He might be one of the canaries in the Kerry coal mine. He’s clearly worried about the second ad and especially the POW vet who was the McCain supporter. He doesn’t put it that way instead he’s trying to make it sound as if the 2nd ad is one of the falsest ads in history. Kerry supporters are getting worried.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:06 pm 116. Charlie (Colorado):

Doublecola:

With reference to your posting of 3:26PM …

You posted exactly the same text at 11:14AM on the “Spin Doctors” thread.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:09 pm 117. Barry Dauphin:

Kerry campaign filing with FEC: In a statement released to reporters, Kerry’s campaign announced it had “filed a legal complaint against Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT) before the Federal Election Commission (FEC) for violating the law with inaccurate ads that are illegally coordinated with the Bush-Cheney presidential campaign.” http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&u=/afp/20040820/ts_alt_afp/us_vote_kerry_vietnam_040820214246&printer=1

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:25 pm 118. ambisinistral:

Speaking of canaries in the coal mine — where’s Edwards been lately?

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:33 pm 119. Catherine:

Percy D

Penwil’s made this point on other threads, and I agree wholeheartedly – Kerry’s post-Vietnam “activism” is what’s going to kill his campaign.

I swear to God I’m NOT getting sucked in Right This Minute (the comments today are so terrific I’m reading every word . . . ) but I wanted to second this observation.

Today’s TIMES story sparked a meltdown around here, too, which ended well (amazingly) & for reasons I think are relevant to the Swift Boat story and the way it will develop.

My husband was appalled at the “smear campaign” being conducted by George Bush, and said he was “flabbergasted” that I could read the story and not switch my vote immediately to Kerry.

From that deeply unpromising start we were able to reach common ground when I stayed on these points:

A) The Swifties believe they are telling the truth. Period. They may be wrong on details; Kerry may be right on details; it doesn’t matter. This is what they believe.

I said that this may be a Rashomon situation, and given that there were apparently 3 bullet holes in the boats and lots of suppressive fire it’s entirely possible that there was some enemy fire which could account for the radically different stories.

When I described the scene of the men on the other boats administering to the wounded in the open without being shot and wounded themselves, he believed it. That was an important detail, and it is one we should emphasize in any conversations we have about the Swifties’ honesty.

I said to my husband: “This is personal. Those guys hate him.”

He sees that, he feels sympathy for the Swifties, and I think this goes to Penwil’s point that when this is portrayed as a group of veterans who are angry with Kerry almost inevitably it starts to work against him. My husband said, “I understand they’re angry, and I don’t blame them.”

The Swifties themselves, I predict, are going to hold up well in these next days and weeks. They look like & sound like human beings, not Republican Party operatives.

B) My husband’s immediate response to the story was that since some of the Swifties had spoken well of Kerry in the past, that meant they were lying now.

I pointed out that in his own realm, when asked to write a letter of recommendation for another scholar, no one ever says, “This scholar’s work is terrible.”

If you are asked to write a letter of recommendation for someone whose work you have problems with & you don’t feel you can turn the request down, you say, “This scholar’s work is interesting.”

That completely ended the issue of the Swifties’ changing their stated opinions of Kerry, and this is another important point to stress in conversation. Most people don’t openly slam their colleagues no matter what they feel privately.

AND: the fact that John Kerry did see fit to go on television and call his fellow soldiers “war criminals” doesn’t say anything good about the man.

BTW, the fact that the TIMES story ended with one of the Swifties saying “I heard ‘baby killer’ all my life thanks to John Kerry” is extremely powerful. That ending, for anyone who read all the way through, stays with you.

It undercuts the rest of the story.

C) Our most contentious point concerned Karl Rove’s connection to Perry. Like many liberals, my husband perceives Republicans as harsh and mean-spirited people who force Democrats to respond in kind.

When I mentioned that Rich Lowry (among others) had warned conservatives away from getting involved in this, my husband was heartened, & much less furious.

We made more headway when I hammered home the point that in this new era of 527s Karl Rove doesn’t have to be involved with Perry in any way, shape or form and certainly isn’t.

Naturally in the heat of the moment I completely forgot to make Terrye’s point that we will not be seeing the Swifties sitting by Gerald Ford at the Republican convention. But I did manage to persuade him that Michael Moore is every bit as close to the machers in the Democratic Party as Perry is to the Republican Party. But the Democrats have not been called upon to publicly disavow Michael Moore, and nor are they going to disavow Michael Moore. Quite the opposite.

D) This brings me to Penwil’s point. I’ve just finished reading H.R. McMaster’s Dereliction of Duty, which is a page-turner, and which I think is an analysis of Vietnam that could form the basis of a consensus view about what the hell happened there. It’s incredible. (I’m reading The Big Story next.)

To my husband I said: this country is still in agony over Vietnam, and that’s what this ad campaign is about.

He agreed, flat-out. At some level everyone must know this, even Chris Matthews.

I said: I’m glad this is happening, because this country needs to have a conversation about what Vietnam meant then & now; to have any kind of peace we need a solid 60% of the public to agree on a “common narrative,” a shared reality about that time. I use the term “narrative” without irony or disrespect.

My husband, the ABB voter, said “yes.”

He doesn’t have any hope at all that such a thing can happen now; I don’t know that I do, either.

But he perceives that the Swift Boat campaign has grown out of the agony that was Vietnam, and that some way, somehow, some day we as a country are going to have to come to terms with that event.

I’ve chosen to post all of this because I think the Swifties, and John Kerry, have now forced that conversation upon us. At least, we will have to begin that debate. And I think the very difficult conversations my husband and I are having are going to be happening elsewhere.

I believe it’s possible this election will be, symbolically, not only a referendum on George Bush, but a referendum on Vietnam and the soldiers we sent there.

I believe that if that happens the “anti-war hero” side of the culture wars, which is the John Kerry side, will lose.

I believe, and I would put money on it, that 60% of the public will opt for a “narrative” very much like the narrative in McMaster’s book.

So I agree with Penwil.

Kerry’s disputed actions in Vietnam open the door to the important issue, which is what he did after the war, when he came home.

Samuel is right. The election is George Bush’s to lose.

Rick Ballard

I have a polling question.

Is 60% the correct figure for a consensus?

I think I’ve read before that once you have 60% of Americans agreeing on an issue, you have consensus–is that correct?

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:38 pm 120. Erik:

Ambi,

Speaking of canaries in the coal mine — where’s Edwards been lately?

I just wondered the same thing. Maybe it’s the cynic in me, but my first immediate thought is that all that touching didn’t turn out well in the polls, so their staffs keeps them far apart now..

On a similar note; our prime minister used to have a habit of touching his face when interviewed, which is a common telltale for liars. Some image consultant mus have talked to him, nowadays he instead takes off his glasses and look over them, to give a “thoughtful” expression…

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:52 pm 121. Tom Holsinger:

I find the whole affair – the Swifties, Cambodia stories, O’Neill’s book and the television ads, and the Kerry/media responses notable for reasons not mentioned yet.

1) Kerry’s campaign seems professionally incompetent. Their errors of omission concerning the Cambodian issue are flat out unforgiveable. There is an SOP to follow in such matters. They didn’t. Why they didn’t is immaterial.

My take on the responses of the Kerry campaign and media at this point is that there is a distinct air of desperation and CYA. There is not adequate coordination. It looks more like pro forma actions by individuals and small organizations designed to minimize blame for failure.

Furthermore the tempo is off. If this is the best the Kerry campaign and its media friends can do under pressure, how can they pick up the pace when it counts in October? Or deal with worse crises?

2) The complete public absence of Kerry in all this says a great deal about him. Here an excerpt from today’s blog entry by Michelle Malkin is telling. Kerry will be under worse pressure in October when he can’t hide.

http://michellemalkin.com/

“Just wanted to end with what I think was the most significant exchange on the show involving Wille Brown, who made a stunning admission from a fellow Democrat about John Kerry’s core deficiencies:

BROWN: John Kerry is the kind of a guy who is always laid back. He is always been dealing with people who were gentle, who were in every way respectful, who have a sense of dignity about themselves and a sense of honor. John Kerry may not be fit for the terrible battles and wars of the world of politics.

He may be absolutely perfect as a president. But in term of a candidate, he probably has a series of imperfection that?s may be fatal in his successful, in his pursuit of a successful candidacy. That?s not to take anything away from his integrity. He should have been doing exactly what he?s doing today. He should have been doing that from day one.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Massachusetts politics is softball?

BROWN: I think Massachusetts politics is always been very respectful of the other person?s view and very committed to the idea they don?t want to seem negative and they don?t want to be criticized for an absence of integrity.

MALKIN: He is a boy in the bubble, Chris. And…

MATTHEWS: What does that mean?

MALKIN: He hasn?t been subjected to this kind of heat. And as Willie Brown is suggesting, if he can?t stand the heat from his fellow veterans, do we really want to trust him to stand up to Islamic extremists?”

At this point it looks like the presidential debates will be do or die time for Kerry. I expect him to come out swinging for a knockout. And Bush is the most dangerous possible opponent to try that against.

My bottom line here is that you guys should look at these events in terms of classic campaign strategy and the ebb & flow of campaigns. Don’t consider what is going on now merely for its face value. Consider its implications for the future.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:53 pm 122. frank_03:

When the post-mortem is over, I think selecting Edwards will be seen as Kerry’s fatal mistake. He miscalculated that he could “hold down the foreign policy end” on his own while Edwards would augment and even drive his domestic angle. If Kerry’s “electability” (haven’t heard that word in awhile) on foreign affairs goes south, he’s hung himself out to dry as Edwards has no real credibility to offer. If he had chosen Gephardt or even Clark, he might not have had to go so militaristic in Boston and the Swift Vets attacks might have been seen as more “old news”, rather than striking at the heart of his credibility. Talk about self-inflicted wounds – we’re watching a long slow one.

Aug 20, 2004 - 4:55 pm 123. Katherine:

I have heard the ad. It is unbelievable. I knew the gist of Kerryís Congressional testimony but to hear him enumerate alleged atrocities, interspaced with commentary from the POWs was nothing short of hit between the eyes. Shocking does not begin to describe it.

How, how, how did this man get elected to high office?

How did he even dare to make his Vietnam service a centerpiece of his campaign?

I previously thought that he was man of average intelligence who got his judgment warped by years of fairy-tale living. Now I am inclined to think that we indeed have a presidential candidate with an IQ of a chimp ñ except that this chimp ainít George W. Bush.

PS. So, Kerryís campaign is trying to suppress the book, do they?

Well, I got my copy today.

See you all later. Have urgent reading to do.

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:12 pm 124. Rick Ballard:

Catherine,

I can’t remember if your husband is a sociologist or a historian. If sociologist ask him to think of Mead and Kinsey. If historian, Kearns Goodwin and Bellesiles. Bellesiles in particular was widely supported by historians even after a fairly thorough disection of his methodology was published but some of the sharper historians saw immediately what he had done. The officers that changed opinions on Kerry were all rather influenced by Brinkley’s hagiography. In fact, Brinkley is on his way to the same notoriety that Kearns Goodwin and Bellesiles enjoy.

In re consensus – I’ve seen some pollsters use it for anything north of 50%. At 60% you start to see the term “overwhelming consensus”.

The “consensus location” is that point of presentation that effectively reaches or positively influences the highest number of participants of poll participants on a given issue. That’s how changes in presentation occur concerning specific issues. Focus groups are presented with different interpretative positions until the right “message mix” is determined. It is also the method by which poll questions are prepared in a manner that is sure to skew results in the desired direction.

You always want to choose the right makeup to keep your Poland China looking her best.

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:28 pm 125. Rick Ballard:

privew, previw, perview, danmit

strike first “of participants”

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:32 pm 126. Barry Dauphin:

Maybe Kerry needs to try a new campaign spokesman. Ace of Spades (via Hugh Hewitt) has a suggestion. How about Bahgdad Bob: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/042123.php

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:34 pm 127. penwil:

A friend just emailed me that Kerry’s people tried to pressure Fox into not running the ad this weekend. Fox’s response is that they are running the ad. Now, I can’t verify if this particular rumor is true because I haven’t been watching TV, but coming on top of the FEC complaint and the attempt to intimidate the publisher to stop printing the book, along with the earlier attempt to intimidate the TV stations from airing the first ad–all this attempt at suppression, besides being just plain wrong, seems oh so very stupid to me. It’s like putting a big ol’ spotlight on the thing and daring the public to look at it.

And HughHewitt.com has a copy of Kerry’s official response to ad #2. As Hewitt says, it is lame . . .

(Please forgive me for not linking properly, but I can’t seem to figure out a way to do it on my Mac. Sheesh, even doublecola has learned how to link properly and I can’t. It’s embarrassing.)

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:37 pm 128. BobT:

Pdq332: There’s no reasoned, grounded in fact argument that would lead to the conclusion that Kerry should be president in 2005. But the sum of the ABB crowd plus those who do not apply reason to their vote can get Kerry elected.

Catherine: I’m having a hard time believing that we still suffer from some sort of Vietnam syndrome. I’m in my mid-forties and have daily contact with late-twenties and thirtysomethings and I simply don’t see any sign of it. Vietnam has no relevance to them or (mostly) to me. (I’m resisting the urge to do a Speakers Corner number on the ’60s. No worries, I’m used to it, my wife is 10 yrs my senior and a former war protester turned Republican.)

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:40 pm 129. Terrye:

double cola:

Kerry can’t be consistsent on any issue for more than a day and a half so why are all the swift boat veterans liars because a handful of them have changed their minds or their attitudes over the course of several years? Maybe they learned something new about Kerry they did not know before.

But then again the other vets who have hated Kerry for over thirty ears and have never changed their feelings are said to be out for reventge. Just pissed of malcontents.

same old same old.

I was an anti war demonstrator a long time ago. I was very young, younger than Kerry. Trust me here, the radicals on campus made sure we knew about what monsters our soldiers were. They loved guys like Kerry. I feel like I was used and lied to myself and for that I despise guys like Kerry. They were older than the 18 years olds that made up the bulk of the demonstrations and the kids looked up to them.

John Kerry used Viet Nam. Then and now. Considering the loss of life and misery that is and was a despicable thing to do.

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:42 pm 130. Rick Ballard:

Here is Penwil’s Hugh Hewitt Link

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:45 pm 131. Barry Dauphin:

penwil

Include the http:// if you are copying and pasting and not just the www. You need the whole thing for the link to work.

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:48 pm 132. Roberts:

I find Richardphx’s comments even more hilarious than Swopa’s and Mork’s. While supposedly decrying dishonest ads, Richard makes an accusation for which he has no evidence – the same one Kerry made today what a coincidence – that the Bush campaign is directing the Swift Boats Vets.

Prove it, Richard, or expose yourself as the true slanderer.

The gall of the Kerry campaign to whine about a few hundred thousand dollars worth of ads when the Democrat inspired and misnamed “MoveOn” group has been spending millions of dollars on ads that repeat long discredited stories.

Pure gall. Or should I say Gaul?

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:52 pm 133. Rick Ballard:

Catherine,

Here’s one version of Kerry’s reception in Cincinnati.

Aug 20, 2004 - 5:56 pm 134. Barry Dauphin:

Via Hugh Hewitt: The Bush campaign has responded to Senator Sybil’s absurd FEC complaint:”This is a frivilous complaint that even John Kerry’s chief strategist has said they have no evidence to support. Real coordination is what John Kerry’s campaign has been egaged in with the Media Fund, America Coming Together, and MoveOn.org.† The revolving door of personnel, coordinated strategies and overlapping funraising between the Democrat 527s and the Kerry campaign is a flagrant disregard of the spirit and the letter of the campaign finance reform law.”

http://hughhewitt.com/#postid816

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:04 pm 135. dougf:

“So, I am not nearly as sanguine about these ads. I very much suspect that their impact is more among those who were already skeptical of Kerry. While there are some undecideds who have been swayed, one wonders whether they’re enough”–Sun Zsu

I don’t base my interpretation of the effects these charges are having on this blog or others.I base it upon Kerry’s reactions which reek of the desperate.

If this isuue were not casuing massive attrition he would be laughing it off and saying’well,everybody has an opinion,let’s move on’.But instead he and his drones in the MSM are attacking the charges ad hominem because they have no other defense.If he was not dying of a thousand cuts,why elevate the profile via a big time defense(not a strong defense just a LOUD defense).

Houston he has a PROBLEM !!!

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:18 pm 136. Les Nessman:

I hope at some point (fairly soon) we can get off of the ‘Vietnam/warhero/warcriminal/gloryhound/liar’ subject and on to the more substantive issues of the campaign. If we invest too heavily in this theme for winning this election, then all it will take is the MSM digging up an old DUI or horrible divorce or petty crime or something tawdry on a few of the Swifties. (250+ guys from the ’60s and ’70s? You KNOW they haven’t all been angels.) Poof! All the testimony from the Swifties would be for naught.

I think Kerry could be defeated on the ‘traditional’ campaign issues. (I didn’t say it would be easy, but there you have it.)

My own personal opinion is that Kerry should be disqualified to be Prez based on his Vietnam lies and his disgusting anti-war activity. But I don’t think I am in the American mainstream on this, so I wouldn’t base the whole election on it.

Spread the word on the Swifties, tell the truth about Kerry’s Vietnam activities; but don’t dwell on it too long.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:24 pm 137. Catherine:

BobT

I’m having a hard time believing that we still suffer from some sort of Vietnam syndrome.

Well, you raise an interesting question: is there an age cut-off for Vietnam Syndrome?

Obviously John Kerry has “VS”; Don Rumsfeld has it, too. (The WEEKLY STANDARD had a fascinating article awhile back on this subject.)

This reminds me of my agent, years ago, who was dating up a storm, looking to Get Married and Have a Baby Before It Was Too Late!

At one point she was dating a guy who was quite a lot younger than she was, and she told me, “I don’t know. My age cut-off may be, Can you remember where you were when Kennedy was killed?”

She was pretty sure that a guy who hadn’t been born when Kennedy died was too young.

And the reason he was too young was: he didn’t remember when Kennedy was born.

Reading McMaster’s Dereliction of Duty made me wonder about this, because in it, as the Vietnam War gets underway, LBJ and all the rest are haunted by Korea.

I know virtually nothing about the Korean War, and I have no idea whether some ghost of that war lurks in my own mind. I don’t think so, but . . . would I recognize it if it did?

My guess is that the kind of severe trauma that accompanies a military defeat doesn’t affect only the generation alive when it happens. Path dependency and all. But I don’t know.

I’m beginning to educate myself in these issues, but there are a number of regulars here who are serious students of history; they may have ideas about this. (Skookumchuk, Knucklehead, & WichitaBoy for starters, and I’d love to hear from Terrye & Syl & DtP, too . . . and now that I’m naming names I should just go ahead and say that probably most of the people here know more about history than I do. So I’m all ears.)

Here’s a terrific book on the subject we’re circling around:

The Culture of Defeat : On National Trauma, Mourning, and Recovery by Wolfgang Schivelbusch, Jefferson Chase (Translator)

Also, here is a fairly bitter article on Vietnam Syndrome that was published by the LATIMES (link no longer works so I won’t post it):

IRAQ

Don’t Quit as We Did in Vietnam

By David Gelernter

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:33 pm 138. Terrye:

Les:

I agree but so far what are the issues?

I still don’t know what Kerry’s Iraq policies are. And the social issues are the same they always are, vote for the Democrats we have a government program to suit all your needs. Poverty, race, healthcare, education etc. But no real specifics.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:38 pm 139. Catherine:

penwil

Did any of us think two weeks ago that this story would not only still be out there on August 20, but on the front page of the NYT, no less?

Well, I’m going to brag (which I realize is a VERY BAD MISTAKE) and tell you that I did expect to see it. (Though I wouldn’t have bet the ranch.)

I expected this story to take hold because of Vietnam Syndrome and THE CULTURE OF DEFEAT.

This isn’t any old “smear campaign.”

The Swifties are attacking the very heart and soul of Kerry’s campaign, and are directly confronting an old and open and still-bleeding wound.

We’re not talking about an intern.

We’re talking about Vietnam.

I was thinking. A couple of months ago I took the kids for a haircut, and our haircutter, who is in her early 30s, told me we should get out of Iraq, because “what are our guys doing there?’

Then she told me her father fought in Vietnam, and when he came back people spit on him in the airport.

Vietnam wasn’t just a trauma for baby boomers.

It was a trauma for at least some of their children, too.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:49 pm 140. Rick Ballard:

Les,

The Swiftvets can only advertise for about two more weeks. The story appears to be reaching a crescendo that will culminate in the next 5-7 days. You bet there’s going to be a number of Swiftvets hit with ugly stories. They know it and have proceeded anyway. After the wave breaks there will be plenty of time to dissect Kerry’s rather sparse career subsequent to Vietnam.

The reality is that this story has already achieved its tactical objective. The Kerry campaign’s (and his own) weaknesses have been exposed, there’s blood in the water, and the campaign is being forced to spend money that it needs for use down the road. I haven’t read how much will be spent on the countering ads but I do know that every dollar spent in August is a dollar they won’t have in October.

Meanwhile, W’s campaign continues to work the message mix, continues to test ads and continues to gain ground. He may have a 2 point bounce coming into the convention. The RCP 3 way polling average has shown Kerry up by 1.7 for about a month. In the last few days it’s moved to a .7 Kerry advantage. I’m looking forward to Mondays average.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:55 pm 141. Catherine:

RC Dean

If, and its a mighty big if, this ad gets enough play, it will go off like a nuclear bomb in absolutely critical demographics

Can’t remember if we’ve “talked” before, but Kerry’s post-war actions were exactly that for me: a nuclear bomb.

I first read about Kerry at NRO, I believe, and then in a thread on John Moore’s web site.

It was the veteran’s voices that flattened me. I felt, and this is probably not too strong a word, devastated by those men.

I sent them to a friend, a Vietnam era Republican (didn’t serve) who had the same reaction.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:59 pm 142. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I can’t speak for the Korean Vets, but as a Vietnam Vet, I don’t spend my life thinking about it. In fact, until this year my service was just a thing that occasionally generated a war story.

However, there are definitely unsettled issues. I have very strong feelings about those who gave Vietnam away in the end. Defeat is bad, but when its inflicted by your own countrymen, and they are proud of it, it’s a hell of a lot worse.

There are various other Vietnam issues floating around. There are lots of phony vets among street people, and there are some vets who were genuinely messed up (as in all wars). There’s the Agent Orange farce.

And, there’s baby boomer politicians who get wrapped up in it one way or the other. Clinton, Gore, Bush and Kerry all had to deal with it.

Vietnam won’t go away for a long time. And in this race, Vietnam, for John Kerry, is a character indicator. Choosing to run on it is to say “I’m a courageous and tough hombre.” When I saw the convention, I knew what was going to happen. The Swifties were going to kick him butt.

In general, it’s pretty pathetic to base your presidential campaign on less than 4 months of combat service.

Aug 20, 2004 - 6:59 pm 143. Terrye:

Catherine:

I think Viet nam just reafirms that streak of isolationism that has always been a part of the American psyche. After all our ancestors came here to get awy from the world, not save it or defend it or solve its problems. Our hsitory is about the NEW World, and escape.

But the world could not be avoided forever. If one reads the history of the 20th century it is worth noting that Woodrow Wilson faced great opposition to sending men to Europe. And when 20 eyars later the European continent found itself embroiled in yet another war Americans were even more convinced that we should avoid conflict. But the truth is we were more a part of the world than it was popular at the time to admit to and when WW2 was over I think the US realized that as one of the few nations left with an intact infrastructure we had an obligation to rebuild Europe and Japan. I think that was when the word “obligation” first really became a part of our national vocabulary.

I know men who faught in Korea. We lost half our standing army there. I had a client who was one of the frozen chosen. I knew an old farmer who walked with a Godawful limp because they dropped him on a mountain when he was a young paratrooper. The extreme cold saved his life because it kept him freezing to death. I know another man, a Marine that was one of only three surviors in his division. Think of that.

They fought to stop communism and free a people.

But even then there were people looking at maps of far away places and saying “What are we doing way over there?” And yet 50 years later we are still there and thanks to us there is a South Korea.

I think Viet Nam taught us we were mortal.

The girl that cuts your hair might have said the same thing about Iwo Jima or Korea or even Berlin.

But they could not watch Korea on the evening news. Today if it can not be resolved in an election cycle then it is deemed hopeless. In truth I think it will take years to succeed in Iraq.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:09 pm 144. Knucklehead:

The nonsense about who funded the Swiftvets is preposterous. Anyone claiming that the Big, Bad, Wealthy Republicans are picking on Poor John Kerry really needs to spend a little time looking around at Public Integrity and/or Open Secrets.

Unless those who complain about some Texas Republican Bigwig are willing to address the clear evidence of who gives the big money and how that is used, then just shut up.

The Dems file an FEC complaint. How rich. What a bunch of fools.

Gee, have a look at who runs (or ran) the Media Fund! Horold Ickes. Couldn’t be any “web” of contacts into the Democratic Party there.

MoveOn.org doesn’t let us know who runs them, but look what they have to say about who gives them money:

Who pays for MoveOn?

Because MoveOn.org has only a tiny staff, our basic operating costs are very low. You can support our work with a secure online contribution. Almost all of our funding comes through these donations from people like you.

But, gee, look at this list of People Like You.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:10 pm 145. Catherine:

Rick B

Thanks!

50%.

I was hoping it was that low, and I was hoping 60% was the “overwhelming” number.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:23 pm 146. Billy Hank:

Many interesting and educational comments.

Pathetic to see DC linking to sites that merely assert O’Neill is a liar to support his hope that the tales of Kerry are not true. You’ve probably seen this http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/08/what_the_other_.html

One point to consider is that Kerry gave his Senate testimony AFTER returning from Paris and his consultations with North Vietnamese and VC cadre. Since his talking points were precisely those that were emanating from Hanoi, I suspect that JFK took his marching orders directly from Hanoi. “The Cambodian Candidate” may cut too close to the truth. As an aside, I will stipulate that there may well have been at least one occurrence of each of the atrocities Kerry cited committed by the American side, but certainly not on the scale he claimed. We were in fact consistently and ad nauseum counseled on the Rules of Engagement. Couldn’t drop on a target in Laos that had not been personally cleared by Field Marshall Sullivan, Ambassador in Vientiane.

Another key point for me is that all participants agree that on the Bronze Star mission when Kerry fished Rassmann out of the water that Kerry’s boat exited the area after the first mine went off. In fact, he exited in such a rapid and accelerating turn that Rassmann was thrown from the boat. Only after Thurlow had saved PCF 3 from sinking did Kerry return to the area.

Folks, that tells me two things. First there was no hostile fire coming from the shore, although Kerry may have included it in the writeup. Second, Kerry bugged out. He ran. Showed the white feather. Like Lord Jim, he jumped. Instead of steering to the sound of the guns, the important lesson he reminded us that he learned in Vietnam, he ran from the sound of a mine.

Democrats, your candidate is a coward.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:27 pm 147. Rick Ballard:

Mr. Hank,

I have seen nothing that would support a charge of cowardice. For all we know SOP for the situation may have been to accelerate away and return (or keep going). I believe that the boats were returning from a mission and that the river was fairly narrow, if Kerry were leading another boat he would have to clear room for the other boat to maneuver. I’ve read the story a few times and I don’t feel that Kerry’s action can be considered to be cowardice. Remember there was a seine net mid stream that cut maneuver room to a minimum.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:39 pm 148. Knucklehead:

Billy Hank,

I don’t know that we can accuse him of cowardice based upon clearing his boat out of the area when PCF-3 hit the mine. IIRC the SOP for PCFs when under attack was to hose the banks and clear out to where they could better use their heavy machine guns. A mine exploding nearby could certainly be construed as coming under attack. The fact that he took his boat away and then came back to where the other boats were standing fast and fishing folks out of the water and dealing with wounded while keeping PCF-3 afloat suggests, however, that they weren’t taking much, if any, incoming fire.

I’d rather see the details of who filed and signed all the paperwork for his medals, and when, than to bother accusing him of cowardice. I mean, heck, running for president with all his Loon Baggage and no positive legislative record to speak of is an indication of something, but probably not cowardice. Only the bravest of fools would run for president from such a weak position. McGovern, for example, was a terrible candidate but no coward.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:44 pm 149. penwil:

I watched the first part of Hannity and Combs because I figured they’d be covering the story and they did. They started by showing the ad, and it packed an even a bigger punch seeing it on a big screen. One thing that might actually not be such a small thing, because I think visual impressions go more toward forming our opinions than we realize . . . Kerry’s picture as a young man when he was giving the testimony, which is shown blown up throughout the ad, reminded me of every whiny, wimpy mama’s boy I ever met in college and couldn’t stand. Ugh! Tough on terror–I don’t think so.

They had a Democratic shill on, who trotted out the talking points of which there are basically three: the vets are eeevilll Republicans who are deliberately making “misleading” statements, nobody cares when Kerry was in Cambodia, anyway, so can we please just move on, and oh by the way Kerry didn’t really say those bad things about our men in Viet Nam, he was just passing on what other men had said. The Democrat was actually as effective as he could be with these points, given that they are pretty lame. Convincing? I don’t know–I’m not objective enough.

Combs (who I actually respect, even though I rarely agree with a word he says) looked like death. He was so upset that his voice kept cracking. Whether he was actually feeling panic or not I can’t pretend to know, but he sure enough sounded and looked panicked.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:45 pm 150. penwil:

Forgot to say that the Republican rep in Fox’s fair and balanced way was Michael Reagan. He was actually laughing in places, which might not have been such a good idea, but he probably couldn’t help it.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:52 pm 151. vnjagvet:

John and Catherine:

You two have nailed it.

I’m at the other end (1940) of the boomer generation. I graduated from college in 1961 and law school in 1965. A ROTC grad, I entered active duty in 1966 as an armor officer, commanded a basic training company of young recruits at Fort Knox, and accepted a branch transfer to JAG in January, 1967

In May, 1967, I was ordered to VN and served as a JAG officer. I was living in a house in the middle of Nha Trang (not in a compound) during the Tet offensive in 1967 when the NVA and VC attacked. Our guys and the Korean MPs (I was laying as low as possible) destroyed the attack.

Over the next several weeks I traveled to Pleiku, Tuy Hoa, Danang, Camp Carrol on the DMZ and Phan Rang. The story was the same. We beat the crap out of them. When I returned home in May, 1967, I was astonished to learn that my friends and loved ones were convinced the war was lost, and we had been badly defeated during Tet. That was my first taste of the anti-war phenomenon.

Over the next several years of active duty in Atlanta, I learned to keep my mouth shut about my service in VN. I watched young soldiers and sailors insulted in airports and generally looked down on by the generation of americans only a few years younger than I was. I watched the culture change such that my service to my country was not seen as an asset but a liability.

Nevertheless, I had a successful professional career, founded what became a national law firm and raised a family (five daughters) in Atlanta.

I mostly repressed my thoughts about VN until early this year when one of my client, a Naval Academy graduate and former SB commender asked me for advice about his participation in the Swift Boat group organized by Admiral Hoffman.

The light bulb went on. Until then, I had not realized the degree to which Sen. Kerry had led the anti war movement. And while still a commissioned officer in the Navy Reserve, yet.

Although I supported Georgia democrats from 1970 – 2002 (Sam Nunn, Max Cleland, Denise Majette, Jimmy Carter, Wyche Fowler to name a few) I could not in good conscience continue to support Kerry whoever his opponent might be. I am an “ABK” voter.

I believe that my demographic covers many fellow citizens in the age range from 45-70.

I believe my reaction is not isolated.

This add portrays a truth that will not be ignored. The spinners will twist themselves into the ground trying to explain it.

Aug 20, 2004 - 7:54 pm 152. youwouldno:

A lot of great stuff here.

One final thought for now: maybe I’m just missing something, but isn’t the fact Kerry TESTIFIED significant in and of itself?

He was not there to discuss his own experience, apparently, since he did not witness war crimes except insofar as his actions were questionable (firing on friendly villages, for instances, which was negligent on his part at the very least).

I assume he was chosen to speak before the Senate because of his percieved or actual ability to present the information the veterans in question wanted to convey. My problem with this is twofold:

1) Since he had minimal firsthand knowledge, would not a more experienced veteran have been more appropriate?

2) Was his intent to truly enlighten Congress on the conduct of the war– or to bolster his own political ambitions?

Problematically, it seems everything John Kerry has ever done goes back to (2). His testimony is appalling in and of itself, but the questionable motives behind it are even worse. This is the same guy that attended meetings where the assassination of Senators was discussed… I have an extremely hard time believing his oath to tell the truth meant much.

Yes, crimes of war occured in Vietnam. But “Ghengis Khan?” An ex-soldier dutifully reporting to the Senate does not use that kind of language.

The surface of Kerry’s actions are fishy, but what lies beneath is plain rotten.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:09 pm 153. Terrye:

I think there is something else. A lot of old boomers are wishing they had lived their lives differently. They are looking for someone to blame. I think Kerry has convinced himself that he really is the hero. But the truth is he is just one of a lot of people that screwed up.

If the Dems think Bush is not respected over seas, what do they think the reaction of the world press to this will be? We are preparing to lock up people for doing things at a prison in Iraq that pale in comparison to much of what Kerry has accused himself and others of. And yet not only does he not go to jail, he gets to run for president.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:11 pm 154. holdfast:

“Drudge is reporting Kerry campaign is filing an FEC complaint.”

-Doesn’t matter – the Repubs filed one about the Dem 527s – changes nothing.

from the Lehrer interview:

JIM LEHRER: So the information is available.

TOM OLIPHANT: Absolutely. It has been for a long time.

JOHN O’NEILL: Jim, one other thing, they can look at swiftvets.com, which is the web site that has a great deal of information on it.

JIM LEHRER: Is there a web site that’s comparable to that? I’m sure the Kerry –

TOM OLIPHANT: Yes, it’s called the daily press, which is the most difficult thing for these guys to deal with.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Thank you both very much.

JOHN O’NEILL: Thank you very much.

Ok, so let me get this straight – Swiftvets.com is a Bush-inspired attack machine. Oliphant is asked for the “comparable” web site for the other side. He replies “the daiy press”. Ergo the daily press is a Kerry-inspired attack machine. Glad you cleared that up Tom.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:12 pm 155. Knucklehead:

Penwil,

I heard a lede that said the ad would be on, but didn’t manage to see it.

Combs (who I actually respect, even though I rarely agree with a word he says) looked like death. He was so upset that his voice kept cracking. Whether he was actually feeling panic or not I can’t pretend to know, but he sure enough sounded and looked panicked.

From what I’ve seen of Hannity and Colmes, Colmes is the calm one. Now I wish I’d seen the segment. If Colmes looked like “death” and near panic, Hannity musta been wearin’ an ear-to-ear shit-eatin grin

Regarding the talking points of the Dem apologist.

Do they really think that claiming Their Boy Kerry was only vouching, under oath, for the claims of others rather than making the claims for himself is a defense of his actions?

The Evil Republican Smear 527s nonsense can’t stand up to even a 5th grade level of scrutiny (see my post above, I qualify as having 5th grade skills and that took less than 5 minutes to track down). And that doesn’t even touch on the long list of other Dem Attack 527s. I recall some article somewhere that talked about the never-ending parade of Dem party muckety-mucks who play musical-chairs with the various exec positions of those. I’ll have to track that down if I can.

Last, but not least, the Cambodia fiasco is just the biggest and longest-lived in a long series of “seared” Kerry memories. Instapundit (y’all don’t need no link) has a link to a rundown of a bunch of Kerry’s “seared” statements over the years. He was apparently quite fond of the word.

One interesting example is his 1/2003 Martin Luther King Day Celebration Remarks in which Kerry says:

I remember well April, 1968 – I was serving in Vietnam ÔøΩ a place of violence — when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home – and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

(The seared part is later in the remarks) As you might guess, Kerry was not “serving in Vietnam” at the time – the Gridley had departed to return to the US in May.

Is there any Vietname memory this loon won’t manufacture when it serves his purpose?

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:16 pm 156. Jamie Irons:

penwil, you wrote:

Kerry’s picture as a young man when he was giving the testimony, which is shown blown up throughout the ad, reminded me of every whiny, wimpy mama’s boy I ever met in college and couldn’t stand. Ugh! Tough on terror–I don’t think so.

I agree with your assessment. I would just add that I find that Mid-Atlantic diction really affected and annoying.

Jamie Irons

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:18 pm 157. Rick Ballard:

Knucklehead,

We just need to make sure that Nov. 2, 2004 is a date that’s seared into his memory forever. (Actually, I wouldn’t mind if a “Flying W” got “seared” into his rice wound either.)

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:25 pm 158. MeTooThen:

BobT and Sun Tzu (Warning: Wet Blanket Society)

I’m with you.

The impact of the second ad is great, but only to those who are open to it. Just as is the impact of the first ad, and the SwiftVets allegations in general.

As this thread began with some psychodynamic allusions (and I have before rendered my own formulations) here are some more:

John Forbes Kerry is skillfully playing at the theme of victimization, his victimization at the hands of the men who he sought to destroy, vis a vis, his Senate testimony 30+ years ago.

Kerry as victim dovetails well with so much of his voting base’s “victimization” at the hands of evil, corporate, rich, white, male, ozone-ruining, Republican, Christian, Southern, imperialist, warmongering, misogynist, racist, Bush zombies. Yes, the list is endless, as are the narcissistic injuries.

And no, this is not hyperbole. Listen to what is being said by the Kerry supporters, including high ranking members of the Democratic party.

As I said before, there is much more at stake than just the election. The collective self-and world views of a Generation and its progeny of narcissistic, immature, solipsistic, and Leftist victims of “the man” is at stake. And their power centers will not surrender easily.

John Forbes Kerry may yet be the 43rd President of the United States of America.

And by the way:

vnjagvet

Wow.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:47 pm 159. MeTooThen:

All,

D’oh!!!!!!

44th President.

I despair.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:54 pm 160. ordi:

Rick B,

BTW ALL, the ads can only run for about 12 more days. I doubt that there will be a third. I’d expect money to go into a wider distribution of this second ad.

Aug 6, 2004

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – A U.S. regulatory agency has dismissed the petition of a conservative advocacy group to bar TV ads for Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11″ documentary as a breach of federal restrictions on “electioneering” activity.

In a unanimous decision made public on Thursday, the Federal Election Commission found no evidence that the movie’s ads had broken the law or that distributors of the film intended any violations in the future. The commission said it agreed with the recommendation of its general counsel that the FEC “cannot entertain complaints based upon mere speculation that someone might violate the law.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5616611/

Old Grouch,

Unfortunately for the campaign, it appears that they didn’t anticipate a direct attack on Kerry’s war record. Nor did they anticipate the collaborative work by the blogosphere in parsing all the charges and countercharges.

Maybe they did anticipate the collaborative work by the blogosphere.

In evidence, I give you Al Gore?s statement: “a network of `rapid response’ digital Brown Shirts” that pressure reporters and editors, a reference to Nazi supporters of the 1930s.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:55 pm 161. Sandy P:

–as opposed to personal recollections that seem to shift daily (see today’s NYT article for proof) by men who hold a deep personal grudge against Kerry based on a (mis)perception he betrayed them — if there was real evidence, this might be a story.–

PHX is right – they should have ended w/the quote from the 1985 bio of Gen Giap naming Kerry and his testimony as help to the VC.

Then showed the pic of him the the Vietnamese Museum.

Aug 20, 2004 - 8:57 pm 162. Sandy P:

–BROWN: I think Massachusetts politics is always been very respectful of the other person?s view and very committed to the idea they don?t want to seem negative and they don?t want to be criticized for an absence of integrity.

MALKIN: He is a boy in the bubble, Chris. And…—

Cabana Boy’s not in a bubble, the entire state of MA is.

They keep electing Teddy.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:17 pm 163. jonh:

most of the responses by the media and Kerry camp are using the “Chewbacca_Defense”

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense

which totally ignore the central issue of the delusional Cambodia embellishment.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:20 pm 164. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Sandy P

There is no 1985 Giap quote, sorry. I looked all over for it.

However, in 1968, after the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese decided to sue for peace, until they saw how it was being covered in the US. At that point, they changed their minds and their strategy became simply to destroy our will to fight. John Kerry was a major player in that.

The picture in the museum is real. We took measures to verify it – see Vietnam Vets for the truth. You can also find the latest ad there.

For anyone looking for Kerry facts regarding Vietnam or his anti-war period, the best resource is wintersoldier.com which has his full FBI files, a lot (all?) of his book, a number of articles, and all sorts of other stuff.

For a collection of various articles about Kerry (including a shocking June 2004 propaganda article from Vietnam that quotes his atrocity testimony by name, see here – note that this link has been posted on Roger’s blog before.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:29 pm 165. The Sanity Inspector:

This whole Swift Vets kerfluffle, and the big media blackout (would someone tell the newbie what MSM means, btw?) reminds me of the quote:

“The internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it.”

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:29 pm 166. richard mcenroe:

Charlie (Colorado) What if Kerry had a cerebral hemmorhage? Well, the echoes in there would be awesome, man! MAJOR reverb!

Is this story getting traction? I was working my corners at the counterprotest today (I work the crosswalks at the red lights to get my HONK FOR THE TROOPS sign in front of the drivers). The other side of my sign is my KERRY LIED-SUE ME sign, which I use when the lefties try to crowd my corner and I just cross into the middle of their crowd and start working their traffic. (they’ve taken to leaving me alone lately…) Drivers started yelling at my today to show them the Kerry side of my sign, and started honking and hooting when I flipped it for them. They knew about the commercial and they knew about the DNC threats.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:31 pm 167. Sandy P:

Catherine – you might want to explain it to your husband this way:

Nam is unfinished domestic business.

Korea, Iraq and Iran are unfinished international business. We must win.

You can also tell your husband from me, I am a pubbie and was going to stay home this year. But the dem primary and a talk w/a girlfriend turned me into a broken glass pubbie.

I was a teenager under Carter. He was an appeaser. Khomeini and his merry band of bloodthirsty thugs admitted that if we had fought back, they were finished.

25 years later, we have FINALLY engaged Iran. Unfortunately, they are too close to have the bomb.

Cabana Boy is a communist sympathizer and an appeaser. He has a 30-year trail if your husband really wanted to look.

Does he hate W that much to take that kind of risk?

And which ennumerated and inalienable rights is he willing to give up to get along?

Because I’m really interested to know what he would so easily give up that millions died for to be liked by the world.

But you can say it much nicer than I could.

I’m getting fed up.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:33 pm 168. Sandy P:

MainStream Media, Sanity. Welcome aboard.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:34 pm 169. Sandy P:

Well, John, I hope there had better be, because Rush has read it more than once and I think it’s been quoted by other conservatives.

Maybe factcheck.org has the scoop.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:36 pm 170. richard mcenroe:

Richardphx ó You want context? The leadership of the VVAW Kerry claimed he was speaking for have been utterly discredited. They were not as far as anyone has been able to determine Nam vets and several of them had not even been in the service.

Just as some of Kerry’s “band of brothers” appear to have not been on his boat…

btw ó If Kerry is testifying under oath, how can he only be relating “what he heard?” I believe that’s called ‘hearsay,’ your honor…

And you want to talk about living in a bubble? The feature article in the current issue of the New Yorker is “Hey, GOP! How MoveOn.org is going to sell Kerry to Republicans!”

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:50 pm 171. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Sandy,

If you find it, please email me. Back when I first got started in the anti-Kerry business, I got an email with it. So I looked in library card catalogs, got a couple of Giap biographies (which I still have) and could not find the quote.

I would be careful of snopes and factcheck – I have seen a left wing bias in both lately.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:52 pm 172. Sandy P:

There might even be more good stuff out there:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12736

Rats, John, I thought he named Kerry specifically. Guess I;ll just have to cheer myself up by remembering the pic in the Museum.

But, the quote would still work in an ad.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:53 pm 173. Samuel:

Everyone

I have said all along, even in the darkest days that Bush would get 53-57% of the vote. Unless there is a huge catastrophe lurking to hurt Bush I am beginning to believe Bush’s numbers are going to approach closer to 57% and a 40+ State margin. If this happens I expect the Democrats to get very bitter and it will hurt them as a Party. I do expect a wave of “Zell Miller” Democrats do the “Rodney Alexander” and get the hell out of the Party while they can, but I am not talking about elected official as much as voters in the general population. People must realize that in many places like North Carolina and Virginia, Democrats out number Republicans by more than 10%, yet no Democrat has won Virginia since LBJ. (Ironically in North Carolina where they are more conservative, the Democrats have faired slightly better). However when will these people just say screw it! It doesn’t matter their children are GOP anyway.

As an ex-Democrat myself with a “Driving Miss Daisy Jew” dad from Georgia, and also having been raised in Virginia (Northern Virginia “Inside the Beltway” in Suburban Washington D.C.) I will tell you guys that the current McGovern like Vietnam climate being generated is very dangerous for Democrats, very dangerous indeed. What where the Democrats thinking? My word that liberal matrix of unreality they live in is just getting weird, I escaped not a moment too soon.

Now back to the “Zell Miller” Democrats doing the “Rodney Alexander” (I am in Washington and boy were the Democrats pissed at Rodney and in some cases shaken.) But the prospect of Zell Miller giving the KEY NOTE ADDRESS at the Republican Convention should scare the Hell out of Democrats, especially in the current political environment. To hell with Ron “what about me” Reagan Jr., a sitting Democratic Senior Senator giving the keynote address for the other Party, especially after 4 million Christian Conservatives mostly from his region that he can appeal to that sat out in 2002, is just about as damn serious as it can be… it would sure scare the hell out of me!

It is interesting that after the Republicans Rudy and Arnold, we get a Democrat to help Bush shore up his hardcore base. I believe this will go down historical and as total vindication for Bush 2000. Is this the first Presidential Landslide that I will have had the honor to participate in which puts me on the winning side? We shall see. I hope so. -JSF

P.S I said from the beginning the current controversy on Kerry would have legs. Hell, legs? This is looking to turn into a dreaded eight legged political octopus.

Aug 20, 2004 - 9:54 pm 174. Godzilla:

Knucklehead

Re: Your comment concerning Kerry not being a coward. I agree with you. He’s no coward. He was there. But that fact does not mitigate my attitude toward him in the slightest, but hardens it to the contrary, in fact. With hindsight, it’s obvious what he was there for. He was there for himself. He wasn’t there for the country or his shipmates. He chewed them up in the senate. The medals he received are meaningless when it comes to shaping my opinion of him. The Senate was where he made his mark. The Christmas in Cambodia fantasy, his magic hat, and medal writeup enhancings don’t come close to defining the true nefariousness of his nature as does his Senate performance. The Swift Vets nailed him to the cross today. The irony is that the records show that he’d been trying to avoid combat duty. He’s definitely an interesting psychological study.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:05 pm 175. richard mcenroe:

Here’s an excellent letter from Mark Steyn’s Mekong Mailbox

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:11 pm 176. Tom Holsinger:

From the Saturday New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/21/politics/campaign/21assess.html?hp

“… Mr. Kerry decided to respond this week by blaming Mr. Bush for what he described as a scurrilous attack, and by filing a complaint with the Federal Election Commission on Friday. His actions came after confronting considerable evidence that two weeks of largely unanswered attacks were taking their toll.

A CBS News poll found that support for Mr. Kerry among veterans has declined markedly since the convention, and some Democrats said they believed that the attacks had at the least slowed whatever momentum Mr. Kerry enjoyed after his convention.

The question now is whether his response came in time.

… Still, more than a few Democrats expressed surprise on Friday that a campaign that has made such a point of presenting itself as aggressive and fast-footed had let this story go on unattended for so long.

… “They made a strategic mistake,” said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, said of Mr. Kerry’s campaign. “The ad has been largely effective because it wasn’t rebutted.”

… What they apparently failed to calculate was the extent that advertisements featuring other Vietnam veterans, speaking coolly and directly to the camera, would become the subject of television news shows. That was all the more so because the advertisements and the book were released in August, a slow month when news outlets are hungry for any kind of news.”

I’ve made several statements about this in the past few days. Upthread I said today:

“Kerry’s campaign seems professionally incompetent. Their errors of omission concerning the Cambodian issue are flat out unforgiveable. There is an SOP to follow in such matters. They didn’t.”

Three days ago in this thread I said:

http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/08/a_dinosaur_lumb.php#c7459

“I can’t emphasize enough that Kerry’s campaign is very inept. Sure it is stuck with El Dud as a candidate, but it could and should be doing better when disasters like this pop out.

1) They didn’t do “opposition research” on their own guy. The Cambodia story should not have been a surprise.

2) They didn’t hang a lantern on it.

… 5) No spin-doctoring, i.e., they let the only versions of this story be those propagated by their enemies.”

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:31 pm 177. Sandy P:

Get this from the Village Voice:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0408/schanberg.php

Senator covered up evidence of P.O.W.’s left behind

When John Kerry’s Courage Went M.I.A.

by Sydney H. Schanberg

And #41 can’t say anything to prove or disprove.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:33 pm 178. Godzilla:

Sandy P

Great link! Wow! I’ve read enough to get the gist, and will read it tomorrow when I’m alert. I thought the Village Voice was a liberal paper.

Aug 20, 2004 - 10:41 pm 179. Syl:

Catherine

“But he perceives that the Swift Boat campaign has grown out of the agony that was Vietnam, and that some way, somehow, some day we as a country are going to have to come to terms with that event.”

and

“The Swifties are attacking the very heart and soul of Kerry’s campaign, and are directly confronting an old and open and still-bleeding wound.”

and

“Vietnam wasn’t just a trauma for baby boomers. It was a trauma for at least some of their children, too.”

Man, Catherine, you know how to get to the core.

The debate over this trauma is beginning because we are at war. Who are we fighting and why? Do we fight to win or only to contain? The war/anti-war dynamic that defined the Vietnam era must be put into perspective before we as a nation can deal with that very same dynamic today. The lessons of Vietnam demonstrate that there are serious consequences whether we teeter or totter. A pro or anti-war stance does not stand in isolation but instead causes ripples that go far beyond one’s ability to immediately comprehend.

Vietnam is recent enough to be an open sore yet long enough ago to be history. We know how it ended and why and who was devastated by the decisions we made. We need an open-minded comparison.

And bringing up Korea is relevant as well. If the memories of Korea affected the decisions and attitudes of the Vietnam era, isn’t it reasonable to assume Vietnam will affect us when we’re at war now? I can’t answer the Korea question myself because all it meant to me when I was a very very young girl was that the next door neighbor’s dog went to Korea for a couple of years and it was just so nice to see Frankie again when he returned. But it meant much more than a returning dog to those older than I.

penwil

“Kerry’s picture as a young man when he was giving the testimony…reminded me of every whiny, wimpy mama’s boy I ever met in college and couldn’t stand. Ugh! Tough on terror–I don’t think so. ”

Yes!

Add to that the snotty snooty turned-up-nose I-know-better attitude in his debate with O’Neill in ‘71.

Contrast with a hooded al Qaeda thug with a knife to an abductee’s throat.

My gut female instincts say our Cambodian Hero does not have what it takes to fight this war.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:00 pm 180. richard mcenroe:

Tom ó Keep in mind one factor a lot of folks may be overlooking. The odds are very good that Kerry has been lying to his own staff as well, and that a lot of their ineptitude has been his reluctance to warn them what other skeletons are in his Vietnam-era duffel bag…

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:24 pm 181. Sandy P:

Anyone read Iraq the Model?

BREAKING NEWS :

IP enters Imam Ali shrine peacefully and Sadr is still not found.

News are still foggy but Al-Hurra TV reported that 400 members of Mehdi militia were arrested inside the shrine.

In another related development Radio Sawa reported this afternoon that Al-Sistani from London gave an interview to a news website (link unavailable).

The reporter of Radio Sawa said :

Al-Sistani called the militias to leave Najaf immediately and hand over the city to the Iraqi government describing the presence of militias as illegitimate and that the presence these militias inside the shrine is desecrating its holiness.

Sistani had also stressed on the necessity to hold the elections according to the declared schedule saying that the results of the elections will decide who has the right to lead Iraq.

Sistani added ìthe coalition forces came and helped Iraqis to get rid of a brutal tyrant that murdered Iraqis and destroyed Iraqís economy and they didnít come to kill Muslims or attack Islamî.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:35 pm 182. Sandy P:

Iraq, Korea, Nam, Iran

Unfinished business.

And I’m going to keep writing it.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:38 pm 183. Connecticut Yankee:

The guys over at Power Line have already fisked Adam Nagourney’s article for the Saturday NYT. What is particularly telling is Nagourney’s obvious anger at and contempt for the blogosphere.

“What really struck me in the Times’ piece, however, was this paragraph:

‘In fairness to Mr. Kerry, his aides were faced with a strategic dilemma that has become distressingly familiar to campaigns in this era when so much unsubstantiated or even false information can reach the public through so many different forums, be it blogs or talk-show radio.’

Oh, sure, that’s the problem all right. Now that the Times’ mighty truth squad has lost its monopoly on the news, you never know what kinds of ideas–facts, even–people might into their heads.”

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007554.php

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:38 pm 184. Sandy P:

Hammorabi’s reporting the same.

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:39 pm 185. Sandy P:

Orrin also posted this, and I read his reaction somewhere, maybe it was an article from an Ohio paper, I read 2 not-so-favorable about Kerry’s speech, IIRC:

On the Diane Rehm show today, Steve Roberts baldly stated that Senator Kerry’s little Swift Vet snit yesterday was provoked by how upset he was over the bad reception he got before the VFW–has anybody seen a print story to that effect?

Aug 20, 2004 - 11:54 pm 186. M. Simon:

Sandy P.

That long improperly formatted url makes the page impossible to read without the scroll bar.

M. Simon

Do you know how John Kerry got a piece of shrapnel buried in his leg?

You don’t?

That is all right. Neither does John.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Aug 21, 2004 - 12:31 am 187. Sandy P:

THHHBT!

All I did was copy it.

—

MALKIN: Did you read the section in the book…

MATTHEWS: I want a statement from you on this program, say to me right, that you believe he shot himself to get credit for a purpose of heart.

—

Man, I certainly couldn’t have thought that fast on my feet.

My statement is, “I encourage the Senator to sign the 180 so the Pentagon can release his records. Once released and reviewed, I would be delighted to come back on, Chris, and discuss his record with you.”

Aug 21, 2004 - 1:16 am 188. WichitaBoy:

Sandy P.

I agree with you that the anti-war protesters are

“protesting the last war”. This is foolish however.

Much as people might like it to be otherwise, Iraq

is not Vietnam. The Central Lesson–the unspoken

lesson–that many took away from Vietnam was:

“It doesn’t matter.” It doesn’t matter, because we

can pull out and there’s no price to be paid.

People stop dying, and there’s no price to be

paid. We quit fighting, and eventually we are

able to buy the products of the Vietnamese and

exploit their cheap labor. Therefore, there’s no

point in fighting in the first place.

Forrest Bedford said: “War means fighting. And

fighting means killing.” He might also have added

that it means dying. Nobody wants to pay this

terrible price unless it is absolutely necessary.

Why is Iraq different? Because we can’t retreat

into isolationism this time around. We have

already been attacked. We will be attacked again.

“We can run but we can’t hide.” There’s nowhere

to hide this time.

Catherine

It may be that I am getting so deep as to be going

off the deep end, but the issue is much deeper

than Vietnam or even Korea. There’s an element

here going back to the Civil War. The Civil War

was the first neocon war. Why did innocent farm

boys and mechanics from Michigan and Illinois

and Kansas have to die on faraway fields with

strange names like Fredericksburg and Manassas

and Shiloh? What was the point? The North hadn’t

been invaded and the South repeatedly stated that

“all it wanted was to be left alone”. What was

so important that it was worth killing and dying

for, dying for by the hundreds of thousands?

How is this relevant? The Civil War wounds haven’t

healed yet either. When we had our discussion the

other day of what accounts for the enormous

Bush hatred, I did not find any of the answers

proferred completely satisfying. But Victor Davis

Hanson’s article on the subject did point out

one of the salient factors: Bush has a Southern

accent and he is not viewed as a “tame” southerner

like Jimmy Carter because he is an unrepentant

conservative. After all these years, we’re still

not really willing as a nation to grant full

humanity to Southerners.

Much as your husband isn’t willing to grant

full humanity to Republicans.

Terrye

The problem of isolationism precedes WWI. Grant

warns of it in his memoirs, written in 1885. He

mentions that “we are no longer safe behind

our oceans”. Yet many in 2004 are willing to

close their eyes and pray (or is it “meditate”?)

that we are.

MeTooThen and jerry

Quit despairing. As Roger points out, pessimism

has a way of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It’s not over yet, not by a long chalk.

No matter how bad things get or seem to get,

always remember the Midwesterner’s Motto:

“Have the courage to get up and do what needs

to be done.”

doublecola

You are only attacking the messengers. That is

weak, lame, and at this point downright dangerous.

This is not a high-school debate. In this world,

the president of the United States literally

holds our lives in his hands, a nasty fact which

we try assiduously to ignore most of the time.

Can we trust Kerry with our lives?

It’s simply not good enough to attack the motives,

veracity, friends, or sexual history of those who

say we can’t. It won’t wash. The focus

must remain on Kerry. He is the issue. If you

have facts about Kerry to post, let’s hear them.

Aug 21, 2004 - 2:41 am 189. Catherine:

WichitaBoy

Wow!

You read my mind.

Ed’s copy of the OAH Magazine of History is here with an article by William Leuchtenburg tracing our current political strife back to the Civil War!

Aug 21, 2004 - 5:25 am 190. Samuel:

WichitaBoy

Well said sir!

Aug 21, 2004 - 5:53 am 191. Syl:

WichitawBoy

Amen to that! Excellent post.

Bears repeating because I often forget what the focus is when we’re arguing back and forth:

This is not a high-school debate. In this world,the president of the United States literally holds our lives in his hands, a nasty fact which we try assiduously to ignore most of the time.

Can we trust Kerry with our lives?

Aug 21, 2004 - 6:10 am 192. Terrye:

Wichita Boy:

How right you are. Regional snobbery is at the heart of Bush hatred. There is among the Democratic party a bigotry that is not about race, but cultural/political heritage. They are more tolerant of the religious views of Islamic fundamentalist than they are Protestants from below the old Mason Dixon line.

For those folks all I can say is Abe Lincoln was from the midwest not New England and he was a Republican, the Democrats were fighting on the other side.

So maybe it is time we put this behind us.

Aug 21, 2004 - 6:50 am 193. Charlie (Colorado):

Sandy P. Yes, all you did was copy it; that’s why your long URL is making this impossible to read without the scroll bar.

In the future, here’s how you do it:

<a href=”your long URL goes here” >link</a>

Like this

PS: Roger, I just inserted Sandy’s long link in a link here; you could delete it now.

He hinted, subtley.

Aug 21, 2004 - 7:06 am 194. Knucklehead:

Jamie Irons:

I find that Mid-Atlantic diction really affected and annoying.

Notfuhnuttin, Bubba, but dat ain’t no mid-freakin-lantic dialect. Its pure Bahston Brahmin. There is no other US dialect that can come close to sounding that patrician and condescending.

Aug 21, 2004 - 7:45 am 195. Jamie Irons:

Knucklehead:

Notice that I said “diction.” (Perhaps I should have said “tone” or “speech pattern,” or something else.)

I was referring not to the accent, which I agree is “pure Boston Brahmin,” as you say; I was trying to get at the attitude conveyed, which seemed to me much like that of the TV sitcom character “Frasier,” but without the latter’s self-irony.

That’s what I find irritating.

Jamie Irons

Aug 21, 2004 - 8:07 am 196. Knucklehead:

Just havin’ a little fun here Jamie. Frasier was set in Seattle – the home of the Latte Superius brain virus. We certainly have our “issues” here in the midlantic (things like Manhattanus Centrus Moronus) but you can’t pin Kerry’s brahmin schtick on us.

Aug 21, 2004 - 9:22 am 197. Catherine:

WichitaBoy & everyone

Here’s the reference for the article I just mentioned (not available online):

“The 2004 Presidential Campaign in Historical Perspective” by William E. Leuchtenburg OAH Magazine of History July 2004, page 58

It’s fabulous (apart from the fact that Leuchtenberg uncritically repeats the charge that Republicans “questioned Max Clelland’s patriotism” as fact).

Here’s a line:

Ever since the Civil War, Republicans have claimed to be the only party to be trusted with national security.

I love it!

This is an o-l-d argument.

I’ve been thinking about the “hive mind” ever since DARPA came up with its terror market.

Now you’ve got me thinking about the hive memory. I would not have said that I personally am re-fighting the Civil War in my private life.

OTOH, my father’s middle name is the name of his grandfather’s (great grandfather’s?) captain in the Civil War, and one of my sons has the same middle name. Here I am, living in 2004, and the family name I’m proudest of and most attached to comes straight from the Civil War.

Bush has a Southern accent and he is not viewed as a “tame” southerner like Jimmy Carter because he is an unrepentant

conservative. After all these years, we’re still not really willing as a nation to grant full humanity to Southerners.

That’s interesting, because you still hear a lot about the Republicans and the “Southern strategy.” (I do, anyway.)

I’ll read VDH.

Aug 21, 2004 - 9:49 am 198. Jamie Irons:

Catherine (If you’re still here!)

I was startled to learn quite recently that my great grandfather, William Young Irons (1841-1917), my grandfather’s dad (whom I don’t recall him ever mentioning to me, and I last spoke with my grandfather when I was a medical student) was a Civil War veteran on the Confederate side! I had always thought we were all pure Yankees! My great grandfather fought for four years of the war under Jubal Early, and somehow survived, returned to his farm and became a dentist (!) and lived a long life.

So maybe that’s why I am Jacksonian. But then why are all my siblings pure Wilsonians?

Jamie Irons

Aug 21, 2004 - 12:51 pm 199. Charlie (Colorado):

Heh.

My sister Queene is named after my Cherokee grandmother. (Grandfather was Choctaw.) Belle Starr was her aunt-by-marriage.

One brother’s middle name is “Walker” because we’re descended from General Walker of the Confederate side; the other’s is “McKinley” from the president.

My great grandfather’s name was “Jefferson Davis Martin”. Born in Georgia in 1861. I guess we know which side they were on.

But my sixth-great grandfather was Major Jacob Martin, who commanded the Georgia Militia unit that performed the Removal.

You can’t make this stuff up.

Aug 21, 2004 - 6:11 pm 200. Terrye:

I had a relative in the Kansas Cavalry and another on the Confederate side in Lee’s Army.

The confederate named John Wilson was killed in the last battle of the war at Appomatax. He left behind 8 children. Years later as his son lay dying from blood poisoning he told my grand mother [his grand daughter] that he could still see his father walking away under the poplar trees in his butternut uniform after he had told him he was to take care of the family. He was 14 when his father was killed. I had another relative who deserted from the Confederate army and went north where he spent the remainder of the war in drag living with his mistress and passing himself off as her sister. the family, needless to say, disowned him.

The yankee, a German, survived the war and became a mule skinner and later was in the 89′er run in Oklahoma.

I also have a distant relative that was a Cherokee from the Carolinas and with her white husband and 13 children was a part of the Trail of Tears. Like a lot of the Indians she went back east after the march. a disgrace.

Aug 21, 2004 - 7:10 pm 201. Billy Hank:

Knucklehead, Rick Ballard – I can appreciate your reluctance to call Kerry a coward. I stand by my assessment of his actions.

I understand that speeding away from ambush zone at high speed was the approved tactic if you were taking a lot of fire from shore. I would point out that, after a spasm of return fire from the boats in the seconds after the mine went off, the other boats remained to aid PCF 3. Kerry’s boat accelerated so fast that he threw one person overboard. I’ve seen a graphic that times out how far downstream Kerry would have been before he turned back. The estimate was up to a mile. Unfortunately, I can’t find the link.

There are some questions that I would have for the crews that a good reporter might ask. For example, were the other boats laying down a continuous pattern of defensive, suppressive fire while Thurlow as working on PCF 3? I’d be interested to know if anyone got on the radio and called Kerry back. The fact that he did come back after running away suggest that there was no fire coming from the shore.

This specific incident is not the only one that suggests Kerry was gun shy. I can certainly understand and sympathize for the FNG in the Boston Whaler cracking off a grenade to make a big boom so the shadows would disappear. Scooting when the rest of the patrol stayed behind suggests a motivation to get his pretty pink ass out of there and to hell with any one behind him. He was supposedly in command. It was his job to find out what the tactical situation was, not just run as far and as fast as he could.

That said, I think his current response to the SBVT ads reinforces the perception of cowardice. He could resolve all this by releasing his records. It looks like he doesn’t have the guts to let the American public make a fair and honest judgment of his qualifications. He is keeping his military and medical records, and THK’s tax info, underwraps. If and when he does release them, I would reommend going over them very carefully. The SBVT has me convinced that he is not above falsifying records.

Aug 22, 2004 - 10:52 am 202. richard mcenroe:

Jaime Irons ó Why are you the only one? Old Story:

1930ís Kansas. Census taker comes to a farm. Asks the father his political affiliation:

“I’m a Democrat. My daddy was a Democrat, and all my boys, too. ‘Cept the youngest. He took to readin’….”

Aug 22, 2004 - 1:04 pm 203. ed:

Hmmm.

It’s curious really. I know the liberals want to attack the personal lives of the SwiftVets, but really how can they? In almost ever instance there’s a Democrat who’s done just as bad that hasn’t been attacked for that misbehavior.

1. If one is an adulterer, there’s Bill Clinton.

2. If one is a liar, there Bill Clinton and Kerry.

3. If one has exaggerated, then there’s Al “Tawana Brawley” Sharpton and Kerry.

4. If one is gay, then there’s McGreevy of New Jersey. Not to mention that attacking someone for being gay would be a tough sell for liberals.

5. If one has embezzled, there’s Jesse Jackson.

6. If one has mistresses, there’s Jesse Jackson, Bill Clinton and McGreevy.

7. If one gets involved with a prostitute, there’s a recent story about a Democrat Congressman who got caught with one in his car.

I’m sure there’s more, but I really don’t see how the SwiftVets could be attacked. The only thing they could get attacked for, which is going on right now, is for being backed by Republicans.

The problem is that allegation is pretty childish. The instant rejoiner is “What? Are Democrats going to fund them?”. Which has been said several times already.

I think the only hope for Kerry is to factually refute the allegations. Which he probably cannot, if his reluctance to fully open his records is any indication.

Aug 22, 2004 - 9:17 pm 204. Charlie (Colorado):

The only thing they could get attacked for, which is going on right now, is for being backed by Republicans.

And really, what could possibly be worse?

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:52 am

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