29 Comments

1. Charlie (Colorado):

Just don’t give him any cookies.

(”Marcel, it’s a cookie. Okay, it’s a really good cookie. Shut up about the cookie already!”)

Aug 22, 2004 - 8:58 am 2. Terrye:

I am so glad I am not French.

Aug 22, 2004 - 9:23 am 3. David Thomson:

I expect anti-Semitism to increase in the United States if John Kerry is elected. The far Left will cease hesitating to reveal their contempt for Israel. As I have said a number of time previously, it is my adamant opinion that at least one third of all John Kerryís supporters believe that Israel is victimizing the Palestinians. Can one argue that this doesn’t necessarily prove that one is anti-Semitic? No, because Israel is always primarily blamed for the conflict. These folks may contend that they havenít anything against Jews per se, but their actions speak louder than words. What about those American Jews supporting Senator Kerry? They are either naive—or ìself hating.î There is simply no other way to explain this weird phenomena.

Aug 22, 2004 - 10:00 am 4. Fred:

I wonder if this might be part of the Rudolf Hess anniversary “celebrated” by Neo-Nazis. I’ve read that German authorities have arrested several of them in the past few days.

Aug 22, 2004 - 10:15 am 5. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I still have a problem with the automatic jump from anti-Zionism or anti-Israel views to antisemitism (even though the Catholic Church now equates them).

While it is not unreasonable to suspect someone of antisemitism for holding negative attitudes against Israel, I don’t think it is solid proof.

If a leftist convinces himself that Israel is an illegitimate occupier of its land (they way Native American and Hispanic groups come to that conclusion in the US), it doesn’t require the emotional state of antisemitism – it doesn’t require stereotyping, hating, envying or otherwise attack Jews for their identity. I don’t agree with those views and happen to admire Israel for its democratic success (so far) against all odds. But it would seem possible to arrive at those views without a view of Jews in general.

So if a person has no negative views of Jews, or doesn’t make a big deal of Jews as a separate race/religion/whatever, and yet is opposed to Israel’s very existence, or more likely its various defensive measures, are they antisemitic?

That such views move one closer to antisemitism is obvious. That such views are used by antisemitimites is certainly true.

Finally, antisemitism is alive and well in France. How much of it is held by ordinary Frencies and how much by Muslim immigrants?

Aug 22, 2004 - 12:52 pm 6. David Thomson:

ìWhile it is not unreasonable to suspect someone of antisemitism for holding negative attitudes against Israel, I don’t think it is solid proof.î

OK, Iíll play ball. For the sake of the argument, allow me to concede your point. You are still left with my contention that probably at least a third of John Kerryís supporters believe that Israel is victimizing the Palestinians. Do you disagree? If not, should we therefore take for granted that a Kerry presidency will be under enormous pressure to slap the Israelis around?

Aug 22, 2004 - 1:23 pm 7. holdfast:

John – I agree with you as a matter of logic. In practice, however, we see these critics of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians focus with laser-like precision on the actions and abuses (some real, many exagerated or fraudulent) of the world’s only Jewish state, while ignoring far worse abuses in about 60 or so other states. These critics fail to note that Israel is the ONLY state in the middle east in which Arabs have a vote, that homosexual Palestinians from the territories often seek (and are granted) asylum in Israel, etc., etc.

Can someone offer a rational explanation why these anti-Zionists are so focused on Israel? It can’t possibly be about human rights per se, since most of them don’t give a rip about Sudan, Rawanda, Chechnya, Ziwbabwe, Tibet . .

I suppose that for some it may be an anti-colonialist argument (which of course requires you to believe that Israel is in fact a colony – of the US one presumes – something that is demonstrably false) and for others it could be a pure race-based argument (Pale people must not hurt darker people. Darker people may hurt paler people or other dark people with impunity), which is not really anti-Semitic, but still pretty warped. It also founders on the Falashas.

So, I guess excessive criticism of Israel (in the guise of anti-Zionism) comes down down to (1) anti-Semiticism, (2) mush-minded anti-colonialism, or (3) inverted racism.

Im sure that 2 and 3 are the motivations for a lot of folks on the contemporary left, but the problem is that their opposition leads them to get into bed with a lot of folks who are pure anti-Semites. It also brings them close to the position of Pat Buchanan – I hope that causes them to lose sleep. International ANSWER and their ilk stage joint rallies with radical Islamic groups who’s anti-Jew agenda is less than hidden – and our oh-so-sensitive lefties don’t seem to mind too much. They choose to lie down with dogs, and are supprised that I think they have fleas.

Dave – voting for Kerry does not make one a self-hating Jew, but joining the ISM sure does.

Aug 22, 2004 - 1:23 pm 8. PeterUK:

PC prevents any discusssion on which french perpetrated these outrages. The preamble to an EU report on racism tried to blame disaffected white skinhead neo-nazis,but the main figures implicated members of the Muslim community in a lot of cases. The French are keeping a lid on this, as is Brussels, in the hope that it will go away or come to a head on someone elses watch.

Aug 22, 2004 - 1:31 pm 9. PeterUK:

It can be simplified quite easily,it was a Jewish centre that was burned down in Paris,not an Israeli centre.Does anyone believe that if the entire population of Israel moved to Palm Springs that this would stop? Of course it is antisemitism anyway it is nuanced.

Aug 22, 2004 - 1:42 pm 10. David Thomson:

ìDave – voting for Kerry does not make one a self-hating Jew, but joining the ISM sure does.î

Agreed. But is it rational for an American Jew to support John Kerry considering that we know that large numbers of his supporter think that Israel victimizes the Palestinians? Pat Buchanan is no longer a member of the Republican Party. Howard Deanís adherent, though, are welcomed with open arms by Senator Kerry. Yes, Deanís wife is Jewish. But this fact does not seem to prevent the former Vermont governor from building alliances with radical anti-Israeli elements.

I recently took another look at the 1947 classic film, ìGentlemanís Agreement.î I think it is fair to state that the Republican Party of that era was unfriendly towards Jews. The Democratic Party, at least in the North, was their only realistic choice. However, that was 57 years ago! Might some people still be living in the past?

Aug 22, 2004 - 2:47 pm 11. Mark in Mexico:

David asks, “Might some people still be living in the past?” Big labor is. African Americans are. The devotees of Aztlan are. Why not Jewish Americans also?

Note: Historically, the term “Semite” includes Palestinian Arabs as well as Palestinian Jews, or anyone native to this area, regardless of religion. We have adopted the term anti-Semite (the capitalization is correct) and anti-Semitism to mean anti-Jew. While admittedly there is a purported difference between anti-Israel (or anti-Zionist) and anti-Jew, the line between them is awfully fuzzy, made more so by the frequent attacks against Jewish religious entities in this country as well as abroad as opposed to attacks against Israli (Zionist) government entities.

Aug 22, 2004 - 3:30 pm 12. Mark in Mexico:

David asks, “Might some people still be living in the past?” Big labor is. African Americans are. The devotees of Aztlan are. Why not Jewish Americans also?

Note: Historically, the term “Semite” includes Palestinian Arabs as well as Palestinian Jews, or anyone native to this area, regardless of religion. We have adopted the term anti-Semite (the capitalization is correct) and anti-Semitism to mean anti-Jew. While admittedly there is a purported difference between anti-Israel (or anti-Zionist) and anti-Jew, the line between them is awfully fuzzy, made more so by the frequent attacks against Jewish religious entities in this country as well as abroad as opposed to attacks against Israli (Zionist) government entities.

Aug 22, 2004 - 3:31 pm 13. Mark in Mexico:

Er, having a little trouble with the ISP. Sorry for the double post.

Aug 22, 2004 - 3:33 pm 14. Good Ole Charlie:

Note that anti-Semitism has deep roots in French Culture: deeper almost than black-white racism in USA. Remember L’Affaire Dreyfus and how it split that nation on the eve of World War I.

As recently as WW II quite a few “Good Frenchmen” joined SS Legion Charlemagne. And the 1930’s slogan “Better Hitler than Blum” was en vogue.

While we are still not entirely non-racist, I cannot see any US political party (non-wacko types) coming out for racism and anti-Semitism. France, on the other hand…???

The virus is still in the French body politic awaiting full activation. I cite Albert Camus’ “The Plague” as a novel to read and ponder in this connection.

Aug 22, 2004 - 4:00 pm 15. richard mcenroe:

John Moore ó Putting aside the folks I see every week who cut to the chase and just yell “Fuck the Jews” at us, I think it’s reasonable to correlate anti-Semitism with Anti-Zionism. Certainly whenever the Saudis put out a manual for the troops or some ignorant mullah starts ranting about “the Jews”, their standard fallback on the rare occasions when they’re challenged is, “well, by Jews I mean the Zionists…”

It’s one of the three great “social lies”:

I don’t hate the Jews, I hate the Zionists

I don’t hate the troops, I hate the war

Some of my best friends are colored people

And like all social lies, when the people who tell them think they are in private or among a large enough number of like-minded bigots, they sing a very different song…

Aug 22, 2004 - 4:00 pm 16. Connecticut Yankee:

Roger and others on this thread–

Charles at Little Green Footballs has posted a photograph of the graffiti that were left behind. It underscores the ugliness of these attacks.

Aug 22, 2004 - 4:19 pm 17. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I don’t enjoy trying to plumb the minds of anti-Zionists or anti-Israelists (sp?).

I sense that a left/Marxist action is at play in many of the left (which is most of Europe). Israel, I suspect, is viewed as an illegitimate European colony, planted there by European powers. As the successful country, it is naturally, in this kind of logic, the oppressor.

In other words, I think the stale old oppressor/oppressee meme is sufficient without anti-Semitism to explain anti-Israeli sentiment.

What I don’t know is to how many people this applies and what difference it makes. Presumably an anti-Semite is going to behave badly towards Jews in his own society, while this hypothetical anti-Zionist would only act against Israel.

I used to think this was a major factor in Europe and wrote a blog entry on it. Today, I’m not so sure, as we see signs of anti-Semitism in Europe (how much is from non-Muslims I don’t know).

I remember the National Review some years ago spent a lot of ink trying to figure out if Buchanan was anti-Semitic, and I think they concluded he was not. Frankly, I didn’t read all of it because I didn’t care – he had done enough other annoying things to be off of my list of interesting people.

Finally, on terminology. Yes, people from the area are Semites (or Hashemites, or….. ). I don’t think it makes any difference for political discussion. The meaning of anti-Semitism is clear.

Aug 22, 2004 - 5:34 pm 18. lindenen:

If someone said “I don’t object to French people, I just object to France”. One would be forgiven for finding some anti-French bias in this.

For anti-Zionists, the only people in the world for whom having their own state is illegitimate is Jewish people. Come on.

Aug 22, 2004 - 6:01 pm 19. jerry:

I have two related comments to this topic.

(1) I don’t think that the Jewish left (probably 2/3s of voting age Jews) are self hating. They are me-too socialists who what to prove to their “brothers” that Jews make the best socialists. As a result, you find Jews over represented on the extremes of what ever positions the left takes. It is not self-hatred that motivates them but instead a desire to demonstrate that they are not outsiders but “belong” to the group.

(2) Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Here is how you can tell. The left is pro-abortion. Israel has liberal access to abortion. It is unlawful in the PLO controlled territories. The left favors Homosexual exceptionalism. Israel has liberal tolerance of homosexuals. In the Palestinian territories homosexuals are murdered. The left supports full and equal rights for women. So does Israel. The Palistinians allow honor killings and restrictions on the activities of women.

Question: Why does the left support homophobic, misogynist Palestinian culture?

Answer: Because the hate Jews more then they respect rights.

Why canít the Jewish left see this?

Answer: See above. To acknowledge this fact would show that Jews cannot be trusted to follow the proper socialist line. The Jewish left fears that without socialist support then Jew haters will get them. The Jewish left never figured out that socialism itself is anti-Semitic.

Aug 22, 2004 - 6:04 pm 20. Knucklehead:

John Moore:

It is possible, in a theoretic sense, to be anti-Israel (ostensibly anti-zionist) without being anti-semitic (anti-Jew).

The problem is connecting this theoretical possibility to some real-world example. Unfortunately the painful reality is that anti-Israel is indistinguishable from anti-semitism.

Aug 22, 2004 - 6:31 pm 21. Knucklehead:

Richard McEnroe,

EXCELLENT! Bigotry is bigotry and nonsense about who one’s “friends” are is just that, nosense.

One of Knucklehead’s Theorems, BTW, is that the Left is little more than today’s KKK. Idiots and Bigots! The whole lot of them. And dangerous bigots to boot. If they’d go away and isolate themselves in Moonbat Compounds in Montana or Idaho or wherever, they would not be a concern. But they are, instead, everywhere and evangelize their bigotries relentlessly. I listened to a moonbat just this AM who thinks he’s the most caring person in the world. What I heard was a non-stop, shallow diatribe about the people he hates.

Aug 22, 2004 - 6:39 pm 22. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Jerry,

I would argue that the Marxist meme is very strong and leftists following it have shown themselves easily capable of ignoring all sorts of contradictory information in other areas. Read what the anti-war people were saying in the Vietnam era. I have certainly seen the most horrible behavior justified by this (including Palestinian suicide bombers). Some people I have encountered who support some of the really evil Palestinian tactics are not, in my opinion, motivated by anti-Semitism. Rather, they are morally obtuse, validating those killings of civilians with various complex rationalizations. These people disliked Israel because:

1) It was an ally of the US, and they hate Bush.

2) Israel “oppresses” Palestinians and stole their land.

The chilling fact is that those reasons were sufficient for them to justify the killing of civilians – especially the “revolutionary action” of the bombings.

Those reasons seem to be all it takes – no need to hate Jews… just Israelis. Most of these people, by the way, are European.

Knucklehead, you provide an interesting challenge. The issue would be to discern policies or actions where anti-Semitism isn’t the cause. Unfortunately, it is easy to infer anti-Semitic motives for lots of behavior, so the challenge is almost self-verifying.

lindanen

For anti-Zionists, the only people in the world for whom having their own state is illegitimate is Jewish people. Come on.

That still doesn’t require anti-Semitism. The reason is that Israel was created on somemone else’s land (or that’s how many anti-Zionists look at it). There is another group without its own land, by the way: gypsies.

In other words, it is the historical accident of the diaspora that made Jews a landless group, and it was the League of Nations and later UN that changed that. Now, in reality Jews have always been in Israel, and many moved there before WW-II. But in a way, Israel is seen by Europe as payoff for the debt incurred by the holocaust. Certainly many Jews feel similarly – avoid another holocaust by having a Jewish nation.

We have many cases in the world where old conflicts over land still exist. Israel/Palestine goes back to AD 70. Northern Ireland is another old one – where it is two cultures (not religions) which conflict over land theft (by my ancestors). This sort of thing is true all over the world.

Israel is special in a few ways:

1) It is an officially religious state. But so are a bunch of Muslim states.

2) It’s people have no other place which is combined with their identity. We have lots of Jews in the US (more than Israel, I think), but the US is not a Jewish place (although it is a very safe place for Jews). As far as I know, Gypsies have no place to call home at all.

3) It is extremely powerful and economically successful by the standards of the region.

4) The region hates not just the nation but all of its Jewish people, for several reasons.

Aug 22, 2004 - 6:57 pm 23. richard mcenroe:

knucklehead ó my personal favorite was a guy I know, sweet guy, any further to the left and he’d be spinning in circles, but his take on AIDS in Africa is, “Now maybe the rhinos and elephants will have a chance.”

Aug 22, 2004 - 7:14 pm 24. WichitaBoy:

I think the source of the anti-Israeli hatred on the “left” is really pretty simple. Our side is always evil, Israel is on our side, QED.

I think jerry is quite right in that much of the the Jewish left consists of “me-too socialists” who are looking for some sort of social acceptance in a largely Christian society. Socialism is, after all, a secular Christianity. I believe it is this phenonmenon which motivated so many Eastern European Jews to become Communists in the early days. It’s not self-hatred but it’s definitely short-sightedly self-destructive.

John Moore–I think you’re ascribing a little too much rationality to hatred. Hatred tends to be like a forest fire in a drought stricken land which consumes all in front of it, whatever its origins. These people may start out hating Israel but, as the hatred builds, the nearest JCC becomes an ever more satisfying target.

Knucklehead–”The Left is today’s KKK.” Right on! That’s what Roger keeps trying to say. “Left in form but right in substance.” (But I prefer Roger’s model of the tetrahedron to describe today’s political situation. “Left” and “right” just don’t begin to describe it for me.)

Isn’t it interesting and strange how a lot of the Bush hatred is an unholy mixture of hatred of Southerners combined with anti-Semitism (”damned neocons”), all cooked up together into one fresh new stew for the consumption of a whole new generation of bigots? If only it could somehow be proven that Karl Rove is Jewish….

Aug 22, 2004 - 7:20 pm 25. WichitaBoy:

richard mcenroe

“Now maybe the rhinos and elephants will have a chance.” You consider that extreme? Practically every other person in Boulder believes passionately that wiping out mankind through some sort of plague would be a Good Thing. They don’t seem to be lining up to lead the way though….

Aug 22, 2004 - 7:37 pm 26. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

WichitaBoy

I agree that hatred has no logic… or more accurately, it has a logic of its own. But it does use rationalization, and that is what I see. Or more often, the simple formulation you mentioned: Israel is our friend, we are evil – is probably the most accurate for many anti-Israeli leftists – even Jewish leftists.

Your construction of a hatred stew is in itself quite insightful. It explains a lot of Bush haters.

Aug 22, 2004 - 10:11 pm 27. Johan Amedeus Metesky:

Regarding the term “anti-semitism”.

To begin with, there is no such thing as a semite. There is a family of languages, including Hebrew and Arabic (as well as ancient Ugaritic and Akkadian if I recall correctly) , that are referred to as “semitic”. Though Jews and Arabs happen to be blood/genetic relatives, that isn’t the general rule for all nationalities that speak semitic languages.

The term anti-semtism was, in fact, created by a Jew hater name Wilhelm Marr, a 19th century German politician. Marr founded a political party based on denying Jews civil rights but recognized the public relations problem caused by called the party “The Jew Hater’s Party”, so he coined the term “anti-semitism” to describe their ideology.

Until Arabs and their sympathizers started appropriating the term, anti-semitism exclusively meant an anti-Jewish attitude.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:18 am 28. Mike_Nargizian:

John Moore

Israel is run in some civil areas by religious authorities but its people are as secular probably as comparable to the US. Some areas are completely secular and others are more comparable to the South here.

Also the Muslim ‘religious’ states, and that includes even the ones that are supposedly ’secular’ (ahem) like Egypt, are highly descriminatory and oppressive to the Christian minorities for example, the Coopts.

Also, as far as I know the Kurds nor Armenians also don’t ‘have a place to call home’.

The region hates not just the nation but all of its Jewish people, for several reasons.

They hate the nation, the “zionists” and Jews for every reason they can imagine and make up. Its a religion and ironically included in their religious learning, to hate the Jews, the Jews are responsible for every ill in the Middle East, they are “thiefs” and manipulators pulling the strings on everything, and its not just the dictators that use this meme and diatribe the people and papers utilize it too, which enables the leaders to continue using it. The other day MEMRI had a notice that a man admitted to blowing up the Cole and the MEMRI note stated that now “once and for all” the Arab/Muslim world could no longer insinuate that Mossad actually blew up the boat to blame the Arab/Muslim world… That’s the state of progress there, they “may”?? now admit that it was actually Arab/Muslims that blew up the Cole?

ARE YOU FIN KIDDING ME?

That’s the state of the sickness there…. Its basis in fiction and pure sickness is most of it, this pathetic attempt to insinuate by leftists and State Dept. that its basis is in reality on the ground that Israel can change is NUTS…. If Israel resolved most of the conflict the propaganda hatred would continue because the machinery/beast is there and is huge and would continue to need to be fed….

In my opinion State believes that although Israel is not the cause even minorly so for this, they believe they can quell or lessen this madness even so, by ‘taking Israel out of the equation for the most part’.

However, that’s rediculous because the Arab world, as long as Israel exists, will NEVER let Israel be and taken ‘out of the equation’.

Aug 23, 2004 - 6:54 am 29. richard mcenroe:

You know, it’s just shocking when someone questions a veteran’s heroism…

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:42 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: