140 Comments

1. richard mcenroe:

This courtesy of Captain’s Quarters

On Wednesday 18 August, Judicial Watch filed a formal complaint against John Forbes Kerry which includes: ìRequest for Investigation, Determination and Final Disposition of Awards Granted to Lieutenant (junior grade) John Forbes Kerry, USNRî (see http://www.judicialwatch.org/3794.shtml). The individuals to whom the complaint was sent include the Inspector General DOD, Office of [the] Naval Inspector General, Chief of Naval Operations-U.S. Navy and the Navy Department Board of Decorations and Medals.

The body of the complaint includes, but is not limited to, charges of Kerryís fraudulent justifications for [his] received medals and awards and ìwaste and abuse that bear directly on the resources, policies, procedures, efficiency, good order and honor of both the Department of Defense and the U.S. Navyî. There is, also, a stipulation in the Uniform Code of Military Justice which allows for the revocation of awarded medals. It states: ìAny award for a distinguished act, achievement or service may be revoked . . . after presentation by SECNAV, if facts subsequently determined, would have prevented the original approval of the award, or if the awardeeís service after the distinguishing act, achievement or service has not been honorable.î Lest anyone think that these charges are frivolousÖthink again. This is an extremely serious matter and I doubt that this will be ìswept under the rugî, as many other Kerry stories have been. Much of the complaint includes information (including notarized documentation) obtained from the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth. ìUnfit For Commandî is, most certainly, having a decided and strong influence and effect on many. Itís no wonder that Kerry and his Band of Barristers are attempting to ban this book!

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:06 am 2. sammy small:

Instead of Tonto and the Lone Ranger, the Dems field a team more characterized by Cheech and Chong.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:11 am 3. richard mcenroe:

Just to refresh your memories, Kerry Bigger War Hero Than Dole

and so you have your talking points in order: back when Judicial Watch was filing briefs and complaints against Ken Starr and the Clinton impeachment, they were a “rights advocate group” or “judicial overwatch group”. Not that Bush is in office and they are filing against Democrats, they are a “conservative gadfly group” or “right-wing activists”.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:15 am 4. TmjUtah:

Sammy Small -

How about Cloueseu and Kato, without the good intentions or good luck?

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:22 am 5. M. Simon:

O’Neill as a good lawyer already has the material released from the supporting vets. i.e. If Kerry’s boat and their boat was in on an action and the records exist all the way up the chain of command. I think they would be entitled to them.

He has let Kerry twist in the wind for weeks now. Thurlow’s initial reluctance to do the 180 was a smoke screen. Hear the screech of unsubstantiated charges?

O’Neill has the records. Kerry has been making up stories. The press is in cahoots. What comes next?

–==–

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Video link

Hello CQ

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:31 am 6. jerry:

Once again the left and the MSM (one in the same of course) shows their lack of knowledge of military matters. Anybody who would say that someone who served on a swiftboat has any Combat experience that measures up to the level of experienced by a WWII infantryman does not have a clue about the nature of combat. In fact, I would bet that the level of combat experienced by someone serving on swiftboat has little idea what it was like for a sailor serving in the Battle of the Atlantic or in the Pacific war. Only those who served in Army/USMC ground combat units can begin to fathom what it was like for a WWII or Korea veteran.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:33 am 7. Bob Pence:

I don’t see how the Cambodia issue is the biggest, nor the bronze star, and I’m afraid they will detract from more important issues regarding the Winter Soldier testimony and meeting with Viet Cong negotiators while he was still a Naval Reservist.

So few Americans are vets, and so few vets are likely to vote for Kerry, that it is not likely to matter whether there was enemy fire during the rescue. (He was under fire at some time, no?) And most Christmas-in-Cambodia critics acknowledge that later Cambodia visits are possible, so it will be unclear to most voters why the timing is critical.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:38 am 8. DennisThePeasant:

More like Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom of The Producers. I can definitely envision John Kerry saying “Money is honey” in supremely oily tones…actually he already has at least twice in his life. And somebody check to see if John Edwards has a blue blanky in his back pocket.

In many ways Springtime for Hitler and Winter Soldier are strikingly similar… both were deeply offensive and shamelessly opportunistic attempts to use real tragedy for personal gain.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:39 am 9. Connecticut Yankee:

Instapundit linked to a timeline drawn up by Chris Lynch for the month of August detailing the sheer ineptitude of Kerry’s campaign. Lynch refers to them as the proverbial “gang that couldn’t shhot straight.”

One of the best entries is for August 12:

“Aug. 12 – Quiet day for the Kerry Campaign. Whoever was in charge today should get a promotion.”

http://large-regular.blogspot.com/2004/08/no-way-to-run-campaign-if-it-seems-to.html

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:41 am 10. Knucklehead:

Jerry,

I agree.

I mean no disrespect to any Vietnam vet, but trying to compare Kerry’s war experience on the rivers of Vietnam (oh, yeah, and Cambodia, of course) with Dole’s experience as part of the 10th Mountain fighting against Kesselring’s defenses in Italy is an example of monumental ignorance of military history.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:43 am 11. RogerA:

Both Jerry and DtP have nailed it. Re Jerry[’s comment: Unless you were on the ground in Viet Nam during the 1965-1968 you may have seen combat but it didnt approach the intensity of anything in Korea or WWII. I have two silver stars, 3 bronze stars, and a purple heart–those are relatively cheap awards compared to soldiers who won similar decorations in WWII or Korea.

Re DtP: precisely–we have in John Kerry someone willing to use any one any time to further his overweening ambition–Is this the kind of person we want in the White House? I think not.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:49 am 12. holdfast:

From the Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/04/24/kerrys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show/

Re: Kerry’s Medical Records

“According to Doyle’s review of the medical records, Kerry also developed “a minor non-specific urinary tract infection” during his military service. It responded to antibiotics, Doyle said. Asked how Kerry developed the infection, Doyle said: “We discussed it. He had no recollection of it. It’s not a very significant thing when you’re 22 years old. It’s something that can happen to anyone at any time.”"

- Now may be this is just wishful thinking, but does anyone know if this is a euphemysm for the clap. Not that such a thing, as a youthful indiscretion, would disqulaify someone from becoming president, it’s just that Kerry’s such a w**re of the special interests that it seems appropriate.

-What is clear is that he and his whole cmapaign have caught a really nasty case of flip-flopping. I think it must be highly contagious, and Kerry is patient zero.

“Nearly a year ago, the Kerry campaign said it would not provide the senator’s military medical records, saying Kerry would not cross what he considered to be a line of privacy. Kerry said Sunday that his military records were available and invited inspection of them at campaign headquarters. But the campaign reversed course Monday, saying no new records would be released. Following GOP criticism, the campaign has been releasing records since Tuesday.”

-Serisouly though – they’re saying that the shrapel in the leg is from PH #2, which is, as I understand it, the relatively uncontroversial one. Still, buried that deep and not a day of duty missed?

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:51 am 13. Rick Ballard:

Where are all the civil libertarians who lament and rend their garments over John Ashcroft and the Patriot Act? Where is the ACLU riding to the defense of free speech? Why haven’t the usual bastions of eternal vigilance (DNC/MSM) against suppression of unpleasant “truths” filled front pages in denunciation of the Kerry campaign’s attempts to muzzle opposition?

Hypocrisy has been a casual wear accessory for the above mentioned groups for a very long time. It’s intersting to watch them adopt it as their entire wardrobe.

BTW – in attempting to identify sidekicks for Kerry remember that they need to have very large bank accounts. John is very careful about the people with whom he associates on a regular basis. After all, he is John Kerry!

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:54 am 14. jerry:

holdfast:

I believe that Kerry made at least one Port Call to Subic Bay while serving on the USS Gridley. He wrote about his visit to Olongapo (”Po City”) and if the dates of the non-specific urinary tract infection line up with the port visit then I would find in hard to believe that it wasn’t an

STD.

Aug 23, 2004 - 7:55 am 15. Connecticut Yankee:

With reference to the 527s, the graphic at The Truth Laid Bear really brings home the difference between the amount of money the usual suspects gave Kerry and the amount the Swifties raised.

http://www.truthlaidbear.com/archives/2004/08/22/527s_in_perspective.php#001354

(scroll down)

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:01 am 16. Fresh Air:

Bob P.–

Actually there is no way in hell Kerry crossed into the Cambodian border unless he did it against orders in the middle of the night with a secret crew.

Jerry–

I worked on Dole’s ‘88 campaign. He did not want to talk about his combat experiences on the stump. He had been a star athlete in school and was in convalescence for two years after the war. But he didn’t dwell on it, and didn’t complain, he just went forward, like most veterans of that era. It wasn’t until some handlers got ahold of him in 1996 that he started to feature his war experience in his campaign.

All detail addicts [Hello, Richard McEnroe, Rick Ballard, John Moore...!]—

See this website, which has more good stuff on Kerry’s medal capers.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:02 am 17. sammy small:

Holdfast

Kerry with a UTI? Oh yeah! Men don’t get UTI’s. It had to be the clap.

During my unaccompanied tour in Korea at Kunsan Air Base, there was a standard Monday morning medical call for all clap victims needing treatment. It was rampant. Our squadron flight surgeon disclosed to us that officers were never written up in their medical records with the clap. It was always written up as something benign so it wouldn’t be on their permanent records. Of course the poor enlisted guys…oh well.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:02 am 18. richard mcenroe:

You know, it’s just shocking when someone challenge’s a veteran’s heroism. Oh, wait, No, it isn’t…

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:03 am 19. Fresh Air:

Botched the link!

Link…

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:06 am 20. TmjUtah:

One of the factors a military member could use to guage his future fortunes was what equipment he was issued…

If you were issued Mickey Mouse PacBoots in 29 Palms, you knew it was going to be a flyaway to Bridgeport for Mountain Warfare Training for a few weeks.

If you got new filters for your field protective mask and had three classes in MOPP, Detection, and Decontamination procedures, it was almost time to get gassed in the field again.

And if you were issued the infamous Black Knight brand of male prophylactic protection (constructed of only the finest defective tractor tire inner tubes, and capable of being used as a field expedient tonneau cover for a five ton truck if enough men could be found to stretch it) it meant that you were going to Olongapo.

Officers have ‘infections’. Enlisted men get the clap.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:10 am 21. hollywood:

Now it can be revealed. The real truth about John Kerry. http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=933

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:24 am 22. Connecticut Yankee:

There’s one person who has suggested a career switch for Kerry–the New York Times ran an interview with Vincent Gallo, a filmmaker who admits to being a Republican. Money quote: “In a perfect world, John Kerry would own a restaurant in Connecticut.” [Gaaah-- the thought alone is enough to give me indigestion!]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/magazine/22QUESTIONS.html

(scroll down)

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:25 am 23. Rick Ballard:

Speculation as to the probable source of a “UTI” detracts from rather than advances the underlying “fitness for command” argument. Head down that road and accusations of “smear campaign” begin to stick. Probability may indicate a “careless discharge of weapon” but you’ll never find an AAR to back it up.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:26 am 24. Silicon valley Jim:

“John Edwards. . . ends up carrying water for a cause I suspect he strongly doubts”

Why does this surprise you? It’s exactly what he did for a living for twenty or so years. You’re far too intelligent to believe that Edwards actually believed that the defendants in the cases where he made his money had actually failed to practice medicine properly.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:36 am 25. TmjUtah:

Rick -

I just commented to provide background to how the military modus for reporting STD’s remains unchanged.

I’ve seen way too many columns that impugn Kerry for ‘panicking’ during the Bronze Star incident; the Swifts to my knowledge have never made that charge. The conflict is between Kerry’s account in which he maintains he stopped on station and supressed the shoreline in an epic exchange of gunfire and that of the Swifts that recall a lone mine explosion, no enemy small arms fire, and Kerry egressing immediately then returning later to assist in recovering the damaged boat.

The pivot isn’t “why”. I think Kerry is a loathsome creature, yes, but I’m not going to assume to question his actions in response to a threat to his boat from thirty years down the road. Panic or reasonable maneuver to protect his boat? Who knows? It’s the “what” happened that is important because the historical account between eyewitnesses splits diametrically from the moment the mine blast occurs. Kerry’s account resulted in a decoration. If the Swift’s account is true, it was just another normal day on the riverine patrol schedule.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:43 am 26. Clio:

I agree with Rick Ballard that the UTI story is a dead end–it could even score points for Kerry! What a regular guy–didn’t know he had it in him,etc.

The Dole comments are simply deadly. This is gonna hurt a lot with older/independent voters. What I can’t understand is why McCain is STILL carrying water for Kerry. I can see the thirst for revenge against Bush driving him to defend Kerry against the original Swift Boat ads (sort of). But now Kerry’s new ad hitches a SECOND ride by associating the Swiftie story to the same malevolent forces that pushed out McCain in 2000. Enough already! If McCain doesn’t reign him in soon he’s going to lose cred with independents like me who were willing to cut him slack before but think this has gone a step too far.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:44 am 27. Lapsed Randian:

Far be it from me to suggest what should and should not be discussed in the marketplace of ideas at this website (I don’t want to sound like the new John Edwards), but do we really need to be analysing whether Kerry had the clap?

The irony of The Scream being stolen a few days ago is rich: the painting reminds me of the look on Kerry’s face after Bob Dole laid the smack on him this weekend.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:45 am 28. jerry:

Lapsed:

I don’t think anybody is going to use the std thing as a campaign issue. We are just having a little fun at Kerry’s expense.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:52 am 29. Connecticut Yankee:

Lapsed Randian: You haven’t seen Allah’s glorious recreation of Munch’s painting? He even added a Swift boat in the background.

http://www.allahpundit.com/

(scroll down)

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:54 am 30. IcePilot:

1. John Lehman’s signature is on both the Silver and Bronze star

citations. Lehman wasn’t Secretary of the Navy until 1986. How did

that happen?

2. Kerry’s DD214 (the most important document you get when you are

discharged from active duty) indicates that he received a Silver Star

with combat “V”. Combat “V’s” don’t go with Silver Stars. Was this a

bit of medal inflation?

3. How many Naval Officers still ambulatory and with all their fingers and toes left Viet

Nam early because of the ‘three Purple Hearts’ loophole?

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:54 am 31. Lapsed Randian:

Yankee: Just when I thought I was being both clever and unique….

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:08 am 32. Connecticut Yankee:

Lapsed Randian–

Allah’s update under the picture indicates that Sekimori had the same idea too. Great minds ….

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:10 am 33. ambisinistral:

Ummm…. while in the Navy a “friend” of mine had a case of non-specific ureathritus (sp?) after a port visit to Olongapo. It was a very low level STD. I, er… I mean my “friend”, was easily cured by a dose of anti-biotics.

Regardless, not worth pursuing. Hey, the guy was a sailor after all.

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:18 am 34. PeterArgus:

The DNC website has this little plea in a May 15 2003 post:

“The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America’s Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.”

Apparently the FEC doesn’t take possible collusion between parties and 527’s too seriously.

Courtesy of blogsforbush .

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:38 am 35. Connecticut Yankee:

What’s this about Kerry’s press release for today saying that he would challenge Bush “at high noon”? I guess the Mekong River runs through Dodge City now. What planet is Kerry living on?

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:40 am 36. JB:

“Men don’t get UTI’s.”

They do — one example being from a stethoscopy for a prostate cancer checkup.

But that is highly unlike to be the case here.

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:41 am 37. ambisinistral:

Bob Pence,

Christmas in Cambodia is important because there are two radically different Kerry’s back then: the enthusiastic war hero Kerry and the remorseful and repentative war criminal Kerry. In his narrative, a connection has to exist to explain those two radically different Kerry postures. Remove that connection and all you are left with is a persaon crassly calculating which way the political wind blows at the moment.

Kerry used Christmas in Cambodia as the epiphany that changed him from war hero Kerry into war protester Kerry. Now that it has been demonstrated that Christmas in Cambodia, and his epiphany along with it, never occured — how does Kerry explain the sudden transformation from a cracker-jack LtJg to an indignant protestor tossing his medals over the White House wall?

Christmas in Cambodia was an oft repeated lie to explain his first cynical flip-flop. It drives very deeply to the heart of his lack character and integrity.

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:42 am 38. PeterArgus:

Oops. Thats a May 9 DNC post not May 15. Must use preview, must use preview, must use preview…

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:48 am 39. Rick Ballard:

I sure don’t mind laughing at Kerry and I understood Tmj’s point completely. The issues raised by this matter have become definitional with regard to the campaign.

As John Kerry thumbed through the many pages of his resume he made a choice to use a particular 18 week period out of a life that has spanned 3,120 weeks as the focus point for the American public to gaze upon. It was his choice and no one else’s. In making that choice a prime factor had to have been his certain knowledge of the DNC/MSM’s fawning admiration and promotion of an image of Kerry as a warrior/leader. Read this spring’s coverage by the DNC/Globe’s sycophantic reporters for an understanding of just how fawning such coverage can be.

This campaign, without a doubt, is the most important decision set that Kerry has ever been involved with. It is the only basis on which the court of public opinion can render an opinion come Nov. 2. If we wish to gain an understanding of how Kerry would conduct himself as President, analysis of decisions made as he conducts this campaign is not just in order but critical.

I contend that Kerry’s initial decision to build his campaign around an 18 week episode in a life of 60 years based upon the support of allies (DNC/MSM) whose determinative strength proved to be unequal to the task set for them is proof in and of itself that the man is unfit for command. I would also note that hiding behind your lawyer’s skirts and calling upon your opponent to come and rescue you from the big bad meanies does not project the image of calm resolution that one might find desirable in a President.

John Kerry defined himself as a fearless leader. Fearless leaders don’t hide behind lawsuits. Fearless leaders don’t whine and weep about “bad men doing bad things” to them.

The Lone Ranger really shouldn’t be mentioned with regard to John Kerry unless you want to esttablish a descriptive opposite. The Lone Ranger wouldn’t let John Kerry hold Silver’s bridle.

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:49 am 40. doublecola:

from talkingpointsmemo…

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here’s how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: “As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn’t a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg–the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart.”

While Dole certainly later in the war received a terrible injury, this first one sounds a lot like Kerry’s. I doubt anyone would attack Dole’s first Purple Heart–nor should they. Going after Kerry’s Medals is a mistake.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 9:54 am 41. JB:

DC,

Oh, this is even better…

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:01 am 42. JB:

DC,

Oh, this is even better…

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:02 am 43. ambisinistral:

We know know Camp Kerry’s talking points:

1. Ignore the substance of Dole’s remarks regarding apologizing to Vets.

2. Attack Dole;s Purple Heart while harumphing over Kerry being questioned over his record.

However, shame on you DC, you forget to mention that the Swift Boat Vets were an arm of the Bush campaign.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:03 am 44. JB:

Sorry, for the double post.

“I doubt anyone would attack Dole’s first Purple Heart–nor should they.”

Bzzzzzzzt. Wrong-o.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:04 am 45. Stan:

DC,

two things:

1) Bob Dole didn’t get out after 4 months due to three of these…

2) Funny for TPM to cite this – there was no corresponding “context” to the Max Cleland injuries and “war hero” status…

You need to be careful citing TPM – Josh has ceased to be a credible commenter on issues. He just cherry picks issues and won’t comment unless he has a pro-Dem issue. He used to be thoughtful have intelligent insights, then (IMO) he decided to drive his readership by just being a “rah-rah” leftie .

Stan

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:04 am 46. WichitaBoy:

Roger

Thanks for the Hans Vaihinger reference. I was completely unaware of him, but this philosophy matches well the thoughts I’ve had lately. Here’s another reference with some further sources.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:14 am 47. IcePilot:

Rick,

Forget about Kerry “hiding behind lawyers”. How pathetic is hiding behind the skirts of his two daughters?

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:22 am 48. doublecola:

ambisinistral,

I didn’t attack–and you know this–Dole’s Purple Heart. I found it interesting that his first Purple Heart was a lot like Kerry’s. Yet, many on this site continue to attack Kerry’s Purple Hearts. I honor Dole’s medals and condemn anyone–including The Nation magazine–for questioning their worthiness. You should be consistent. If Dole earned his first Purple Heart, then Kerry earned his.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:35 am 49. ambisinistral:

DC,

I’m familiar with your tactic of trying to change the topic of disccussion. My first point in my list was about Kerry, and by extension his mouthpieces, ignoring Dole’s comments about Kerry’s testimony before the Senate.

What do you think about that testimony?

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:42 am 50. JK Ribera:

Dos anyone know if the political campaigns have “shills” on the blogs? It is my observation that this is possible. The poster above doublecola would seem to be posting “talking points,” rather than genuine argument. Everyone with eyes knows that Bob Dole has only one usable arm from a significant war wound. We also know that Kerry only had the most minor wounds and apparently spent no time in a hospital. The difference is huge, yet this doublecola persists in not addressing that, as if he were representing someone. Perhaps it is only himself. In which case I apologize.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:44 am 51. ambisinistral:

JKR,

The term you’re looking for is Astroturfers. Fake grass roots support. It wouldn’t surpise me.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:52 am 52. Tom Holsinger:

Rick Ballard’s point here is very important:

“If we wish to gain an understanding of how Kerry would conduct himself as President, analysis of decisions made as he conducts this campaign is not just in order but critical.”

Note also the following from ABC’s The Note: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

“If John Kerry can’t build a campaign organization that can de-fang 250 guys spending a million bucks, how good a president could he possibly be?”

While a candidate’s individual campaign skills are not indicators of performance in office, administrative ability as shown by the professional competence of a presidential candidate’s campaign staff in a general election can be an effective indicator of performance in office. Specifically the lack of professional competence by the campaign staff is an almost certain indicator that the candidate lacks the administrative ability to be an effective President.

An adequate or excellent campaign organization does not prove that the candidate has the administrative skill to be an adequate president, but an ineffective campaign organization is sure evidence that the nominee will be an ineffective president.

The GOP should flog the hell out of this point concerning the Kerry campaign’s response to the Swifties. It can’t be emphasized enough.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:53 am 53. DennisThePeasant:

You need to be careful citing TPM – Josh has ceased to be a credible commenter on issues. He just cherry picks issues and won’t comment unless he has a pro-Dem issue.

Stan-

You obviously don’t know doublecola very well. Why do you think he chose to cite Josh Marshall in the first place?

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:54 am 54. ricpic:

I hated the war….but I loved the vets…but not all the vets…not the vets who loved the war…the vets who were stupid…and didn’t complain…didn’t protest…just fought the war…and were wounded…and some died…without complaining…stupid…so when I got back I showed them…I showed them up…I denounced the war…and I denounced them…and now…now they have the nerve…the nerve to denouce me…ME…JOHN KERRY!..don’t they know?…can’t they see how GREAT I am?!…they better watch out!

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:56 am 55. Rick Z:

Personally, the decoration debate never cut much ground with me. It was a long time ago; fog of war; etc. Besides, I was an “era” vet with no in-country service, and at the time I was sympathetic to the mainstream anti-war argument. I’ll leave that issue for those who were there to sort out.

But nonetheless I’ve been waiting over 30 years to cast my vote against Sen. Kerry solely on the basis of his post-war activities and the lasting personal hurt he caused me and over 3 million other Vietnam-era veterans. His calculated and untruthful slander of an entire generation had devastating consequences, and shaped the popular image we’ve all had to live with and live down ever since. It may be too late to reshape that narrative, but it’s not too late for justice.

Even Jane Fonda appologized (after a fashion).

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:56 am 56. doublecola:

ambisinistral,

“I’m familiar with your tactic of trying to change the topic of disccussion.”

Hmmm…

Here’s Roger’s Heading: “It Was Only a Flesh Wound, Kemosabe!”

“Americans over fifty (and most others in reruns) grew up on those immortal words from Tonto to the Lone Ranger — and they may come back to haunt John Kerry, especially now that Bob Dole, whose wounds were most obviously not of the “flesh” variety, entered the fray:”

Doles comment:

“And here’s, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they’re all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you’re out.”

I just pointed out the striking similarities between Kerry’s and Dole’s flesh wounds. It’s a fact, that you refuse to acknowledge. If Dole earned his first Purple Heart (He did) then Kerry deserves his Purple Hearts.

“What do you think about that testimony?”

You mean this:

I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony….

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command….

THEY TOLD the stories…”

See, he’s reporting on what other vets revealed. Unfortunately, the swiftboat ad is very misleading in how they present that fact.

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/winter2_20040302.htm

We know these terrible things happened:

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010507/cover.html

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:11 am 57. holdfast:

RE Clapping for Kerry

In no way do I think that this is a valid campaign issue – though it can lead to some really fun puns. Rather, I was wondering if this (or a more explicit version) is why he won’t release all his medical records. It doesn’t bother me that he might have had an STD in his Navy days (actually it makes him a little more human) but it might bother Te-Ray-Za.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:13 am 58. doublecola:

JK Ribera,

I did address it in an earlier post in this thread:

“While Dole certainly later in the war received a terrible injury, this first one sounds a lot like Kerry’s. I doubt anyone would attack Dole’s first Purple Heart–nor should they. Going after Kerry’s Medals is a mistake.”

Let’s see if you have the guts to apologize to me.

I doubt it.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:15 am 59. doublecola:

DennisThePeasant

“You obviously don’t know doublecola very well. Why do you think he chose to cite Josh Marshall in the first place?”

Go ahead and attack the source, but I see you did not question the quote.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:18 am 60. DennisThePeasant:

doublecola-

Of course I didn’t attack the source or the quote.

I was attacking you.

Or, more specifically, your attempt to sidetrack legitimate questions raised by Bob Dole about John Kerry by attacking Bob Dole. Your standard tactic, and Marshall’s, is as follows:

If you can’t ignore, attack it. If you can’t attack it, fabricate it. If you can’t fabricate it, lie about it. If you can’t lie about it, change the subject to something you can ignore, attack, fabricate or lie about.

Hope you have the proper context of my comment now. And be sure to pick up your personalized “Dean 2004″ lobster bib at the front desk.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:30 am 61. doublecola:

DennisThePeasant,

Please attack me–I can take it.

However, I posted a fact. It was in direct response to Roger’s heading: “It Was Only a Flesh Wound, Kemosabe!”

Let’s see, I provided a relevant fact. You choose to ignore it.

Then you lie and say I attacked Dole. Here is my quote:

“I honor Dole’s medals and condemn anyone–including The Nation magazine–for questioning their worthiness.”

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:35 am 62. Bostonian:

DC,

As we’ve heard many, many times, there are two qualifications needed to get a Purple Heart:

1) A bonafide injury.

2) The injury occurs during battle with the enemy.

It can be an accidental injury, but if it does not happen during a battle, you get no PH.

(I’m going to guess that in wartime, many injuries are accidents, even caused by the men who receive them. These are dangerous weapons they are using.) The point is that if you get injured during combat, you get a PH.

The quarrels with Kerry’s PH’s are twofold:

1) Wounds so minor as to be unworthy of the name

2) No enemy fire

Please don’t pretend that you do not understand these points. They’ve been made many, many times, here and elsewhere. Don’t pretend to us that you cannot tell the difference between Bob Dole’s PH and John Forbes Kerry’s.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:40 am 63. Sun-Tzu:

DC:

But were these “150 honorably discharged” people actually veterans? In fact, were they “honorably discharged” from the military at all?

I don’t mean were they AWOL, I mean, were they ever soldiers?

I believe that there have been investigations into those people—and I believe many of them were not, in fact, veterans who had served in Vietnam.

Inconceivable? No more so than the claim a few years back that we nerve-gassed a bunch of North Vietnamese (see “Operation Northwind”).

Now, is John Kerry responsible for what these people said? Well, he’s referring to them in testimony before Congress (paralleling testifying in court).

Of course, since he lied about being in Cambodia on the Senate floor, perhaps he doesn’t place as much weight on said testimony (wonder what that said about his time as State Attorney General).

But, oddly, it would seem that these people who “reported” to him were not his own crew, i.e., in his own chain of command. So, did these people file charges in the military chain of command? That, after all, is how LT Calley got found out (and served time). If not, why not?

And what evidence was there that these “vets” were truthful? Because they said so? Because their stories made sense, in the context of 1971?

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:42 am 64. Rick Ballard:

DC,

If you want a site that gives the full flavor and nuance of John Forbes Kerry as he repeated lies to the United States Senate while still a commissioned officer in the Navy of the United States this is the place for you to go. There is a lot of information concerning the makeup of the Winter Soldier bunch. There is even a huge FBI file that contains within it the evidence that Kerry was indeed in attendance at the meeting where assasination of sitting US Senators was proposed and taken to a vote. It’s a real goldmine for Kerry supporters and provides much greater insight into the Senator’s charactor. Happy reading.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:44 am 65. doublecola:

Bostonian,

Please read the facts behind Kerry’s medals here:

(by the way, this is the same group, factcheck.org, that defends Bush’s National Guard service.)

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:45 am 66. Barry Dauphin:

There’s an even more important difference between Dole and Kerry’s military service than quarts of blood shed. Dole didn’t grab everyone by their lapels to remind them of how wonderful he was in the war nor make it the cornerstone of his presidential campaigns. Kerry’s been doing that so often for so long, Best of the Web has been parodying it for a year.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:50 am 67. John Lynch:

FoxNews reports that Bush says to pull Swift Boat Vet’s Ads (specifically) along with all other 527 ads.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:51 am 68. Eric Deamer:

Dennis:

I very much enjoyed that. Thank you.

DC:

Could you please move off the DNC talking points that you got from the conveniently-titled “Talking Points Memo” website?

We get your “point”. We’re just saying it’s fatuous. Bob Dole had much longer and much more dangerous military service, and he barely talked about it for his entire political career. John Kerry has talked about his 18 week stint in Viet Nam incessantly, as if it made him Audie frickin’ Murhpy, and as if even if it did that it would have any bearing on whether he’d make a good president. I’m sure there are a lot of men of Dole’s generation who are damned cranky about Kerry’s ridiculous bragging about his service. Even if, purely for the sake of argument, Dole did exagerrate one of his injuries (though not the one that disfigured his arm for life), how does that have any bearing on the merits of what he said about Kerry over the weekend?

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:51 am 69. Charlie (Colorado):

DC:

I doubt anyone would attack Dole’s first Purple Heart–nor should they.

Actually, did just that.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:52 am 70. penwil:

If the Kerry campaign has even a modicum of sense, they’ll issue a statement praising Bob Dole for his service to his country and let it go. The very last thing Kerry needs is to have voters comparing his braggadocio behavior at the Democratic convention–the silly salute and reporting for duty schtick and the re-enacted war movies–with Bob Dole’s downplaying of his own “greatest generation” service in the “good war” and the wound that left him without the use of one arm.

Kerry and his lackeys in the MSM were stupid to make Vietnam the center of Kerry’s campaign and they have now compounded that stupidity by allowing themselves to get dragged into a pissing contest with the vets over the medals, thereby gaining the attention of the entire electorate just in time for airing of the Winter Soldier ad.

As Catherine so astutely pointed out a couple of weeks ago–in this time of terrorist warnings and Iran getting nukes, do the Dems really want the country to focus its collective attention on the one war that we bugged out of and lost?

There’s a whole lot of angst attached to our collective memories of that war, no matter which side of the divide each of us stood at that time. Angst that comes from shame and guilt. There have been many arguments about the wisdom of our going over there in the first place, but the bottom line is we took a stand and then when the going got rough at home, we got going. We can excuse it or justify it or gloss over it, but in our heart of hearts we know that what we did was cut and run, and a lot of lives were wasted because of that, and we as a country know that. It is our national shame, because it puts to the lie everything we thought ourselves to be after WWII, epitomized by John Wayne storming the beaches at Iwo Jima.

On a gut level, I think that the American people know that just as the Vietnam War, rightly or wrongly, was the taking of a stand against communism, Iraq is the taking of a stand against Islamofacism. And next week the Republican convention will turn our attention back to the current war, and I think a lot of independent and moderate voters that were leaning toward Kerry are going to see the parallels between Vietnam and Iraq and realize that we cannot make the same mistake of will again, simply because the consequences of failure this time are just so much greater.

Kerry can report for duty all he wants–the country has just been reminded of how he slimed his fellow soldiers and sailors and marines and advoated cutting and running from one war, thirty years ago. We know he’s going to cut and run from Iraq. Even those who plan on voting for him know that–in fact that’s why they are voting for him.

The MSM has been complaining for months that the voters haven’t gotten to know Kerry. Well, they know him now.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:54 am 71. Rick Ballard:

Akefa,

Do you have any determinative specifics to offer on the good Senators positions regarding:

a)Civil Rights

b)Supreme Court justices

c)relations with allies

Determinative specifics refers to long held positions. If you could point us to something in his legislative record that supports whatever the flavor of the moment is on his campaign site it would be helpful. Legislation that he sponsored or co-sponsored or simply his voting record on a specific issue. We would all like to gather as much information as possible concerning the “real” John Kerry.

Aug 23, 2004 - 11:56 am 72. Bob Pence:

ambisinistral -

Thank you for your response addressed to me. I seem to recall Kerry backing down only as to date, and it seems to me his “transformation” would still be credible had he been in Cambodia a month or two later, to those who would consider it credible at all.

DC -

The “I am not here as John Kerry,” speaking-for-untold-thousands line makes him seem megalomaniacal, or at least demented. Did he give any indication that he did not see people who were not John Kerry routinely commiting atrocities?

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:02 pm 73. Charlie (Colorado):

But the issues are far more important and you make a huge mistake by focusing on Vietnam.

If Kerry had made anything except his four months in Viet Nam an issue, maybe we wouldn’t.

No, that’s not quite true. Kerry violated his “bond” with his “brothers”, he violated the UCMJ, and he aided the enemy. That’s unforgiveable. A little indiscretion with his medals is nothing.

We vote for Kerry because of civil rights, because of supreme court judges, because of relations with allies. This is much bigger than you seem capable of seeing.

Where Kerry actually has a horrible record on civil rights, either will or won’t use the usual DNC talking point litmus tests — depending on when he’s asked — and has been explicitly rejected by the few “allies” that aren’t on our side.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:02 pm 74. doublecola:

Rick,

We could swap links on this all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

Though I think the above link is much less biased than the one you provided–of course I’d think that, right!

I like Bob Schieffer’s take:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/opinion/schieffer/main636333.shtml

I’m going to lunch now.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:04 pm 75. devildog:

DC:

Until your boy, a.k.a. The Braggart Soldier, signs a Standard Form 180 your regurgitated talking points ring increasingly hollow.

Most of us learned early on that one ‘ah sh*t’ destroys many ‘ata boys’ — and Kerry has quite a pile of ah sh*ts in his lap.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:04 pm 76. Charlie (Colorado):

Me:

I doubt anyone would attack Dole’s first Purple Heart–nor should they.

Actually, did just that.

Dammit. I swear that said The Nation when I saved it.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:05 pm 77. doublecola:

Charlie (Colorado),

I’ll repeat what I said earlier:

“I honor Dole’s medals and condemn anyone–including The Nation magazine–for questioning their worthiness.”

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:09 pm 78. Rick Ballard:

John Lynch,

W has always been very accomodating to his opponents. I wonder when Sen. Kerry will thank him for asking those big meanies to leave little John alone.

Kind of makes the Kerry campaign look a bit stupid again, though. I wonder how much they paid for the ads calling on the President to do what he did the first time he was asked about it. I also wonder if Sen. Kerry will heed his opponents call to ask for an end to “all” 527 advertising?

How many stupid campaign moves have Kerry and his boys and girls mastered? One can only stand back and quietly applaud the Kerry campaigns ability to score a goal against itself.

Charlie (C),

Privew is a fikcle firend.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:10 pm 79. Mark Poling:

Akefa, first you have to trust that the candidate means what he says before you can have a meaningful discussion about the merits of the candidates positions.

Kerry decided to make his weeks on the waters of Viet Nam the bedrock of his campaign. He could have chosen the issues you listed, but he didn’t. What he has now is a playing field on which his reputation for truthfulness has been lost on the Cambodian sidelines, and upon which many of his “brothers” wage battle against him. (There’s one way the military really is like a family; you don’t get to pick and choose who’s in it with you.)

If Kerry had treated Viet Nam as insignificant, these attacks could have been treated as insignificant. (Actually, those Cambodia stories would have stunk no matter what. But at least they would have been peripheral to the issues you listed.)

The whole purpose of the Conventions are to try to frame the national debate in a way that favors your candidate, and hopefully your party.

The Democrats are in the middle of one very long “D’oh!” moment. Expect it to continue.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:17 pm 80. holdfast:

“c)relations with allies”

So that’s what – describing our actual, stalwart, helpful allies as “a coalition of the bribed and bullies” or “a fraudulent coalition” while pining for attention from countries like Germany (no troops to deploy – used to have a good army, now it’s dying) or France (ain’t goin to Iraq no way no how). Yeah, Kerry would really fix Bush’s admittedly sometiems ham-handed diplomacy. If we only have half the allies that we did in the past (though the better half, I’d argue) Kerry and his foreign policy nightmare team seem certain to prove that they can alienate the remaining half. I know Kerry thinks that “many foreign leaders” back him, but what he’s forgotten is that (1) poliics is supposed to stop at the water’s edge (2) Giap and Ho are dead, and (3) Daniel Ortega isn’t a leader any more.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:20 pm 81. Rick Ballard:

DC,

I thought you were out to lunch? I mean, I know you’re out to lunch, but I thought you left for lunch. Anyway, you’re the one that chose google hockey as the game of the day. If you would prefer to discuss points then make some. Argument by implication is’nt all that persuasive, tu quoque isn’t even argument, it’s just a logical fallacy. Oh well, I suppose one must work with the tools available.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:22 pm 82. holdfast:

sorry – “bullied”

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:26 pm 83. John Lynch:

Rick Ballard

I suspect there is some political mileage to be had from calling to pull this and other ads. (for Bush)

It is less likely that disdain (for attacks) will now attach directly to the Bush campaign, by anyone except the rabid.

And, it is unlikely that the SBVT 527 will pay attention to this call.

And, the purported collaboration has increasingly slender legs to stand on.

Is this what Kerry meant by “Bring it on?”

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:35 pm 84. M. Simon:

I think Giap is still alive.

He gave an interview a while back and the on-line dictionary gives no death date.

–==–

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Video link

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:40 pm 85. DennisThePeasant:

doubletalk-

Of course you can take it, you’re getting hit in the head.

Oh, and nice try on the “Gee, I just happened upon this bit of fact that denigrates Bob Dole and might just undermine the legitimacy of his crticism of John Kerry. Not that I’d ever attack Bob Dole about anything, especially his medals, or his service or anything else. I was just walking through the living room and literally tripped over his particular fact that I just thought was real interesting and posted it for no particular reason except that it was interesting” schtick.

Like we haven’t seen that from a dozen other dimwits in the past couple of months.

Aug 23, 2004 - 12:41 pm 86. Occam's Beard:

DC,

I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony….

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command….

THEY TOLD the stories…”

See, he’s reporting on what other vets revealed. Unfortunately, the swiftboat ad is very misleading in how they present that fact.

This is a bit disingenuous, DC. Kerry wasn’t merely repeating others’ comments, but was clearly endorsing them as well. (For example, he made no attempt to provide countervailing points from others who disputed those allegations.)

Consequently, it is perfectly legitimate to attribute those statements to him. It is intellectually dishonest to cite inflammatory accusations made by unnamed third parties (the classic “Some people say …[scurrilous, reprehensible, unsubstantiated accusation here]“), and then when challenged to retreat to a lame “but I was only quoting” defense.

If you do that, you own the quote, IMO.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:08 pm 87. Sandy P:

–What I can’t understand is why McCain is STILL carrying water for Kerry–

Sitting senators.

This CFR is his baby and now he’s watching it go down the tubes.

John might not have come to terms w/it.

Just some random thoughts.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:10 pm 88. Jamie Irons:

A little further on in the ABC The Note site that someone above called our attention to, the writers say:

Is the president getting ready to change his posture? The Boston Globe ’s well-wired Anne Kornblut, with an intriguing Houston dateline, says this, “Republicans are divided over how Bush should respond, with some officials fearful that his failure to condemn the ad keeps the president in a defensive stance and could reinforce allegations that Bush operatives are actively supporting the attacks on Kerry.”

—If President Bush is so upset about the failure of McCain-Feingold to stop all 527 advertising (as he claims he thought the law he signed would do), why doesn’t he propose some new First Amendment restrictions that he would be willing to sign into a new law?

Got that? “Why doesn’t he propose some new First Amendment restrictions that he would be willing to sign into a new law?”

That was meant to be ironic, right? Help me out here.

Jamie Irons

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:17 pm 89. Roberts:

Evidently, John Kerry is feeling a fondness for the tyranny and oppression of the Wilson administration.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:19 pm 90. doublecola:

DennisThePeasant,

Good post! Ignore the facts and context of my posts, make up a scenario–based not on facts, but upon your own biased opinion, and then call me a name.

sigh

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:32 pm 91. Sandy P:

–Please read the facts behind Kerry’s medals here:–

If he won’t 180 his records, how do we know the facts, DC?

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:32 pm 92. RogerA:

DC: Ah talking points–you were busted on an earlier thread for posting the exact same thing on another blog–and yes–they ARE talking points; to wit: All the emphasis on THEY SAID as prelude to an alleged discussion of Kerry’s testimony; Richphx posted that argument shortly after the winter soldier testimony broke, and I have already heard it ad nauseum from the dem spokespeople on the talk shows. More to the point: focus all you want on Sen Doles FIRST purple heart and then look at his right arm–Please also know that Sen Dole was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross–the nation’s second highest award for valor. Something else you clearly dont know is that the higher the award for valor the higher it is reviewed by command authorities–In Viet Nam, at least in the army, Silver Starts were reviewed by division commanders and reviewed by corps commanders–DSCs were approved by Corps commanders (3 stars) and reviewed by Theater CINCs–Medals of Honor are approved by the the Service Secretary. The higher you go, the more rigorous the standards of evidence and supporting documentation. You might wish to compare the numbers of Silver Stars awarded as percent of soldiers serving in Viet Nam and compare that to SSs awarded in WWII on the same basis.

Finally, someone mentioned Kerry’s DD214 form which encapsulates ones service history and all awards and decorations (and there IS a difference between those two) mention a Silver Star with V device. The V device is awarded for valor in conjunction with a Bronze Star or lower medal–a Silver Star is awarded specifically for Gallantry in Action.

Jeez I wish some of you folks would learn something about the military before you launch into asinine commentary.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:38 pm 93. Sandy P:

–while pining for attention from countries like Germany (no troops to deploy – used to have a good army, now it’s dying) or France–

Plus, as I was reminded by a German, a little document they had to sign back in the 40s which limits their scope. Seems they had delusions of grandeur at one point and had to be stomped on.

Japan has the same limitations, but they’ve been pushing the document, Germany hasn’t, to my knowledge.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:38 pm 94. doublecola:

Sandy,

Based upon the documented facts we do have, there seems to be no reason for Kerry to release all of his records. The burden of proof should be on the accusers and we have found–and I have documented in other posts, though on a different thread (August 20, 2004: They Were All William Calley)

–that his accusers statements quite often contradict themselves.

But, I think a non-partison outfit like factcheck.org, sums it up nicely.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:45 pm 95. Sandy P:

And if the accusers 180 their records?

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:47 pm 96. Sandy P:

DC, you know the cover-up is usually worse.

Ok, how about this?

He can keep those covered up, but send over his 1991 committee records on the POWs to the archives and release those?

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:48 pm 97. Roberts:

No, doublecola, while it is amusing that you keep repeating the claim, you have not shown that Kerry’s accusers statements contradict themselves. Further, “factcheck.org” is not playing a neutral game in this dispute as any examination of their “analysis” shows, as they run double standards throughout their piece.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:51 pm 98. doublecola:

RogerA,

How come when anyone who is not on your side presents facts, you call them talking points?

Besides, you obviously only read what you want to read and disregard the rest(sorry S&G). I stated:

“While Dole certainly later in the war received a terrible injury, this first one sounds a lot like Kerry’s…”

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:51 pm 99. Bostonian:

Akefa: ” Kerry’s heroism is probably something less than he himself portrays it.”

Um, the issue is not his heroism. Are you even paying attention? Focus with us: the issue is his *honor.*

And if you don’t understand why honor is important, I don’t know why you are reading this blog.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:52 pm 100. WichitaBoy:

doublecola

If a man wants to have the power of life and death over me and my family and if he wants to base his qualifications to hold that power on his actions some 35 years ago, then at the very least he owes me the courtesy of opening up his records from that time for the benefit of my scrutiny.

Only a partisan fool would argue otherwise.

Release the records.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:53 pm 101. Bostonian:

DC, you ignored my response to that one (your Dole/Kerry comparison). If you want to be taken seriously, do not misrepresent the rules for the Purple Heart.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:54 pm 102. RogerA:

Because DC: Perhaps we would like to see your analysis of events rather than a recitation of cherry picked links.

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:57 pm 103. doublecola:

More name calling:

“I thought you were out to lunch? I mean, I know you’re out to lunch, but I thought you left for lunch.” —-That’s so clever!

“Anyway, you’re the one that chose google hockey as the game of the day. If you would prefer to discuss points then make some.”–I have been. The links provide factual documentation. Your link was a wildly biased website. And when I do state something, you all cry for documentation. And when I document something, you call them talking points!

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 1:59 pm 104. doublecola:

RogerA,

Please. You guys live on cherrypicked links.

It’s so funny. When I give my analysis, you guys call them my factless opinions

When I provide facts, you all get on me for not giving my analysis.

When I give analysis with facts, you call them talking points.

I don’t expect you guys to play fair, but you don’t want debate–and, okay, that’s fine. Just be honest about it.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:08 pm 105. ambisinistral:

I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony….

DC,

You were replying to me, not Roger Simon. I’ve hardly talked about the Purple Hearts at in here, but I have talked about Christmas in Cambodia and Kerry’s testimony. Anyhoo… glad to see you at least directly answered my question for once. There is certainly more testimony of Kerry’s to be considered, but just taking Kerry’s quote you provided above — in exactly what capacity do you think he speaking?

That is, he was under oath and testifying before Congress. Was he speaking as the representative for that group, or do are you claiming he was speaking as a witness against that group? If he was speaking for that group do you agree that the following testimony he provided was accurate?

—————

John Kerry,

“I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit – the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation.”

—————

John Kerry,

“There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.”

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:11 pm 106. geoffg:

Bob Pence

While I agree with your sentiments, most Xmas-in-Cambo critics do not concede that later visits by Swiftboats were possible. The Cambodians had piles driven into the river, so that only vessels with a draft of less that 2 feet could cross (sampans, etc.) The entrance into Cambodia was guarded. Ops that did occur were helo’d in, PCFs being too slow and noisy.

The State Dept. head of the Cambodian mission at that time has stated that he knew of every mission and Kerry’s was not one of them.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:16 pm 107. doublecola:

ambisinistral,

Sorry, I’m having trouble keeping track of all those who are questioning me.

I think he was speaking for those men. I think what he stated was accurate based on what he heard at the Winter Soldier investigation. Did it happen with every soldier in Viet Nam? No, of course not–and nor–from what I’ve read–was he implying that.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:23 pm 108. DennisThePeasant:

doubletalk-

Oh, so it’s a matter of my missing the context of your posts.

Much like I’ve missed the context of claiming war hero status 35 years after participating in unauthorized meetings with representatives of an enemy still in the field and killing Americans…while a reserve officer.

Much like I missed the context of never retracting or correcting the distortions and falsehoods contained in sworn testimony given before Congress that accused the U.S. military and specific U.S. military personnel of deliberate and systematic participation of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Much like I missed the context of throwing other people’s medals away, misleading others as to whose medals they were, and then displaying those very same medals not thrown in a big glass and wood case in the office as evidence of war hero status.

And finally, much like I have missed the context of you just happening to start posting links about Bob Dole’s military service within a day of Bob Dole offering a opinion on John Kerry’s military service.

My bad. Living without nuance is such a bitch. I wonder how a manage, sometimes.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:28 pm 109. vnjagvet:

DC:

Please answer the following:

Is it your contention that Kerry’s Senate testimony was not intended to convey the impression that our troops systematically committed atrocities in Vietnam with approval from their officers?

If not, please explain.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:28 pm 110. holdfast:

“in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones.”

A free fire zone just means you CAN shoot at the enemy without permission from higher. It does not mean you MUST shoot at everything that moves – as Kerry is alleged to have done.

“I conducted harassment and interdiction fire.”

I have no idea what this means – all fire directed at the enemy is good. Fire directed at civillians is bad. Collateral damage happens – it must be kept in proportion with the mission objectives.

“I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. ”

1) VC are people too – good – .50s make nice big holes

2) e know for a fact that Kerry had an m-79 grenade launcher and an m-16 rifle.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:30 pm 111. DennisThePeasant:

And stop whining about namecalling.

It is simply a way of showing disrespect.

You’ll have to post here for awhile before we can dislike you on a purely personal level.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:33 pm 112. Roberts:

Exactly, holdfast. Additionally, when Kerry claims that the use of particular weapons “violate the Geneva Conventions”, he is displaying the fact that he was not paying attention during his OCS schools. Restrictions on specific weapons are found in the Hague Conventions, and the claim that .50 Browning machine guns are prohibited by that convention is not true.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:35 pm 113. ambisinistral:

DC,

Two things.

What was his capacity at that investigation?

Also, of course he didn’t implicate every single soldier, but he did clearly and unambigously say, “These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” and, “I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions.”

In short, there can be no doubt, reading his own words, that he charged many, many of his fellow soldiers, as well as himself, in Committing war crimes during the vietnam War.

There is no way to parse his statement as anything trivial. He was either stating the truth about War Crimes before Congress, or he was making unfounded allegations, or deliberate mistruths, of the most vile and scandalous sort.

Those are his words. Due to the serious crimes he alleged, we deserve an explanation today, from him, as to why such testimony was given. Anything less will not do.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:37 pm 114. doublecola:

“Is it your contention that Kerry’s Senate testimony was not intended to convey the impression that our troops systematically committed atrocities in Vietnam with approval from their officers?”

It’s my contention that Kerry’s testimony conveyed that there were atrocities in Viet Nam, and, according to what he heard during the winter soldier investigation, they were not as uncommon as thought.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:42 pm 115. Roberts:

Amazing how doublecola’s characterization of Kerry’s testimony doesn’t match … oh, I don’t know … say Kerry’s actual testimony.

But it was about 50 miles near Kerry’s testimony…

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:48 pm 116. vnjagvet:

DC:

Your answer was interesting but not responsive.

A yes or no answer will suffice.

After that you may explain your answer.

The readership can judge whether your response makes your point.

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:51 pm 117. doublecola:

ambisinistral,

“I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions.”

Yes, he should be pushed to answer to his above statement.

I know he has been, in the past, asked about those statements, but I don’t know what his reply was.

We have some agreement. While I don’t think his testimony regarding the wintersoldier investigation is worthwhile–simply because he he just stated what he’d heard. But what HE said HE took part in–he should answer for it. Be a great question in a nationally televised debate!

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:54 pm 118. PeterUK:

The testimony at Winter Soldier appears to be for the sole purpose of assuaging the maggots eating Kerry’s soul for his actions in Vietnam,it is the old “We are all guilty ” defence,spread the blame and avoid the shame.

Catching a round of applause isn’t much of a runner, though there might be something about bloodtests in the pre-nuptial.

In my book, Dole’s arm trumps Kerry’s arse,incidentally as well as signing a 180,why not show us the wound,if Clinton can get his parts photographed why should Kerry lag behind?

Aug 23, 2004 - 2:57 pm 119. doublecola:

vnjagvet,

I think I answered your question just fine.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:00 pm 120. Terrye:

I gather from double cola above that the new idea is to insult WW2 vets as well as Viet Nam vets. Anyone who thinks there is a comparison between the weeks Kerry spent on that swift boat and the fighting ground troops in WW2 or for that matter battles of the sea like Midway just plain do not know what they are talking about.

My uncles suffered a whole lot more than Kerry with a whole lot less self congrats and no hooplah.

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:05 pm 121. doublecola:

All,

I will have to part from this discussion as I am leaving for vacation. I won’t be near a computer for a while.

I do love a good fight and most of you certainly have provided me with one.

until our next disagreement/battle, I hope all of you will take good care.

DC

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:07 pm 122. ambisinistral:

DC,

Actually, it is rather more complicated than that. From a Mackubin Thomas Owens article (link at end of post):

Kerry did not return from Vietnam a radical antiwar activist. According to the indispensable Stolen Valor, by H. G. “Jug” Burkett and Genna Whitley, “Friends said that when Kerry first began talking about running for office, he was not visibly agitated about the Vietnam War. ‘I thought of him as a rather normal vet,’ a friend said to a reporter, ‘glad to be out but not terribly uptight about the war.’ Another acquaintance who talked to Kerry about his political ambitions called him a ‘very charismatic fellow looking for a good issue.’” Apparently, this good issue would be Vietnam.

Thus, friends who knew him said he did not return from Vietnam with any antiwar feelings seared — seered — into himself. However, he did return ambitious.

To answer my own question about what was his capacity at the Winter Soldiers hearing, it was none. He was an audiance member. You may think that leaves him off the hook, but in fact it means he was ready to go before Congress and, without investigating the veracity of any of the stories, present himself as the “spokesman” for the group. Let that sink in a bit, we’re not talking to an interview with a small town weekly, we’re talking about testifying under oath to Congress. In short, he smeared veterans before Congress based purely on hearsay he never bothered trying to verify.

And why did he do that? Because he was a “very charismatic fellow looking for a good issue.” Does that demonstrate a molecule of integrity to you?

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:07 pm 123. flenser:

doublecola

Have you seen the account of William B. Rood, the Swift Boater now being cited as backing Kerry’s story on the Silver Star?

His account of what happened tracks almost exactly with what the SBVT are saying, and is noticeably different from the account in Kerry’s Silver Star citation. Most notably, the heavy enemy fire that is mention in the citation does not appear in Roods account. In addition Rood describes the bulk of the fighting as being done by Army soldiers carried on the boats, a detail which does not feature in the citations I have seen. (I hear there is more than one)

After reading Rood’s account, can you tell me what you feel Kerry did that merited a Silver Star?

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:08 pm 124. ambisinistral:

Have a good vacation DC. Where ya going, to Vichy in the south of France?

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:09 pm 125. vnjagvet:

DC:

Then you admit that Kerry intended to leave that impression, don’t you?

I sure believe he did from the entire context of his testimony and from contemporaneous statements he made, such as his debate with O’Neill on the Cavett Show.

So did his fellow “winter soldiers” and their supporters who marched with signs labeling our fellow soldiers and sailors baby killers.

I think most of those discussing the issues on this thread agree too. We’re not alone in our interpretation. Here’s another pretty good soldier who agrees:

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/08/hero_speaks_out.html#more.

Out of context,indeed.

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:11 pm 126. M. Simon:

I would give Kerry a pass on Winter Soldier (assuming he was dupped and not in on the scam) except for one thing: he has never apologized.

Shouldn’t he come clean?

I have. I admit I was stupid and a duppe. I have apologized for my complicity in a communist victory, the boat people, Cambodia.

Where is JFnnK’s honor?

–==–

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

Video link

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:41 pm 127. Mark:

Check out Ace’s commentary on the latest Dole remarks. Some of the funniest I have read in a LONG time.

Aug 23, 2004 - 3:53 pm 128. hollywood:

“Have a good vacation DC. Where ya going, to Vichy in the south of France? ”

Not to put to fine a point on it ambisinistral, but Vichy is just about as smack dab in the middle of France as you can get.

Aug 23, 2004 - 4:02 pm 129. Syl:

re: incompetence of campaign.

Some of it is incompetence, truly, but I also think Kerry wasn’t honest with them either. The fact that MSM never truly vetted Kerry has definitely hurt. Many former Clinton handlers have begged the campaign to let them help. The campaign turned them away…until now. They’re desparate and have had to drop their egos to allow people who know what they’re doing to help. Which leads to….

re: 527’s and new Kerry ad demanding Bush make them stop.

The Kerry’s campaign sole reason for doing this is to convince the public that Bush is behind it.

re Kerry’s first Purple Heart

It’s not just the circumstances Kerry claimed for his first Purple Heart, it’s that this was the last one awarded of the three. His CO had turned it down and only after his CO had left Vietnam did Kerry re-present to his new CO.

re Dole

What I liked best was Dole saying Kerry was not the only vet who served in Vietnam.

re Kerry’s testimony re atrocities

I’ve been back to one of the sites I used to ‘frequent’ and am getting ‘But there were atrocities in Vietnam’ as if that’s all Kerry said.

Another thing I’m hearing is that the Swiftvets real motivation is anger for Kerry’s anti-war activities…as if Kerry’s attacks are really okay with them and since Kerry’s service record isn’t part of that it means the Swiftvets are wrong and just vengeful and thus totally discredited.

Heck, I know these folks are voting Kerry anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. I posted over there for the lurkers mainly. But knowing most of the folks who frequent sites such as that (non-political, these are off-topic forums that otherwise concern the software I use) are ABB, the lurkers don’t really matter that much either.

One gal, in her usual condescending manner, said “I have delved into this issue from as many sources not connected to either side as I can find.”

I told her that was her problem right there.

Sigh.

Sorry for not posting more intensively. I’ve been mostly in absorb mode.

Aug 23, 2004 - 4:53 pm 130. Fresh Air:

More essential information!

Here is a thorough debunking of the Bronze Star “under enemy fire” claim, posted by a military intelligence officer over at the Swift Boat Veterans’ site. The author uses his mil-speak skills to definitively finger Kerry as the author of the report.

Check it out.

Aug 23, 2004 - 5:31 pm 131. Fresh Air:

Oops!

Here is the link to the Bronze Star debunking:

Link…

Aug 23, 2004 - 5:32 pm 132. Terrye:

Weren’t the Vichy those cultured, fashionable, artistic facists that turned tens of thousands of French Jews over to their German masters before they were even asked to?

So refined. so debonair. Such great allies and friends. At least that is what Saddam thought.

I think the point we are missing is that Kerry is either a liar or a war criminal. According to his own testimony it is one or the other. Which is it do you think?

We know he does not respect any vet that fails to share his overblown opinion of himself. We know that he blames all his screw ups on the Republicans and their master mind Karl Rove. He does not fall down, remember?

Dems, face it, these swifties hate Kerry and they would be out there whether Bush was in the White House or not. This is personal.

Comforting as it may be not everything is someone else’s fault. Kerry failed to learn a simple lesson: when you are in a hole, stop digging.

Aug 23, 2004 - 5:49 pm 133. Terrye:

Syl:

No doubt Kerry’s testimony is part of what drives these men. Otherwise they might just have thought he was another prissy preppy glory hound and blown him off.

However, the things he said after the war just lend credibility to the questions concerning Kerry’s over all truthfullness. He lied about Cambodia. He lied about artrocities. He met with the enemy. What else did he lie about?

It seems to me that he is lucky he was not in jail. I thought mass murder was a crime.

The thing I have asked people who try to make an excuse for him is why won’t he release his records? The Democrats hounded Bush into doing it, why not Kerry? Could it be he is hiding something? Hell if I know, but you gotta wonder.

Aug 23, 2004 - 6:02 pm 134. Syl:

Terrye

“The thing I have asked people who try to make an excuse for him is why won’t he release his records?”

I ask too. But these people _insist_ that Kerry has released his records, see, they’re on his site!

Sigh.

I actually did manage to get one of them to visit swiftvets.com. She came back full of quotes from commenters there she didn’t like.

Honestly, you’ve got to laugh at stuff like this.

Joe told me that the left side calls the right side evil and the right side calls the left side stupid and uninformed.

When I was on the left side I never bothered to listen to the right side so I didn’t characterize it much at all. But now that I’m on the right side I want to scream about how stupid and uninformed the left side is! LOL

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:08 pm 135. Terrye:

Syl:

I know what you mean. And they are also insulting and obnoxious and like to start fights they don’t have the balls to finish.

I had the same discussion. I just said well Bush had to sign a form and release all of his and so should Kerry unless he is hiding something.

It just amazes me how many Dems don’t even see what the big deal is with Moore and moveon.org and just assume that Halliburton has been charged with a crime and all Republcians are evil, even if the little old lady next door happens to be one.

Like trying to have a battle of wits with an utterly defenceless opponent.

I told one ABB idiot that if Kerry gets elected and I don’t have a new job and a new car and a new house in a year I am going to sue the DNC for misrepresenting their product.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:23 pm 136. Bob Pence:

geoffg -

Thank you for your response. So, not onlynot Christmas in Cambodia, but never in Cambodia, so whence the epiphany from brave warrior to brave protestor?

I was thinking a few days ago, remembering previously reading some of the Winter Soldier testimony, of a qestion for Kerry boosters: “Do you want a president who is an admitted war criminal or a president who falsely said he was a war criminal?” With Kerry, you can have both.

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:33 pm 137. Syl:

Terrye

“I told one ABB idiot that if Kerry gets elected and I don’t have a new job and a new car and a new house in a year I am going to sue the DNC for misrepresenting their product.”

LOL!

Well it seems to be all about emotion and motivation and greater truths and I’m such a nice person because I feel sorry for the poor and don’t like war. The ones I’ve hung out with for a while don’t believe they have to think because they’re artists you see.

I wrote (rather eloquently I thought) about how our system works..the free market (without ever using that term) and the billion individual transactions that occur daily in America.

And concluded that just by living our lives normally, purchasing the highest quality at the lowest price and individualy helping our neighbors and contributing to charity, we do more to help the poor than all the chest-pounding will ever accomplish. And the answer?

“I’m putting you on ignore.”

Gotta love it. LOL

Aug 23, 2004 - 8:50 pm 138. WichitaBoy:

Syl

Your comment about the efficacy of people going about their everyday lives reminded me of this one about the “web of trust”. Have you read it?

Hardly a person reading this has not sat, probably many times, on board a commercial jetliner, munching a terrible sandwich while watching television on a little screen at seven miles above the earth moving faster than the musket ball that ended the life of Sullivan Ballou.

The sheer mundane frequency of this miracle should be enough on it’s own, but I ask you to look much deeper.

Think, for a moment, about the endlessly intricate, stunning web of trust, cooperation and genius required to make this happen. Drop the obvious elements like the pilots and the air-traffic controllers. Forget the armies of people who set their alarms every day to go and build, fly and maintain these wonders.

What about the chemist who determined the correct mixture to get that reprehensible purple dye just right for the fabric on the seat back covers? Who engraved DIANE’s name tag? How many hundreds of men cut how many grooves in how many trees to make the rubber that seals the handles on the restroom faucets? What were the names of the aerodynamicists who designed the wing section before the one actually finalized in the design of the airplane? Who made the air traffic controller’s coffee? What were the first words spoken between the parents of the person who cleaned and vacuumed your seat?

How marvelous are our everyday lives, intertwined with all the other everyday lives to produce a totality which is darned near miraculous. And there’s no coercion, it’s all done and performed–the whole vast spectacle–freely by all participants. It’s worthy of Walt Whitman. “I sing the free market electric.”

As for the bit about “putting you on ignore”, I’m beginning to see a pattern here. Consider this article by Mark Steyn.

Switch on the TV these days and you’ll see John O’Neill, principal spokesman for the hundreds of Swift boat veterans who oppose their old comrade Kerry, talking calmly and patiently about the facts, citing chapter and verse and relevant footnotes, while some deranged interviewer is going berserk.

The other day it was CNN host James Carville, former skinhead-in-chief to Bill Clinton, yelling and howling all over O’Neill’s answers before brushing him aside with, “I’ve got no use for this man.”

Close your ears! Don’t listen to what they’re saying! Real open-minded folks, don’t you think?

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:07 pm 139. Syl:

WichitaBoy

I love Bill Whittle though I haven’t kept up. I read Trinity last year sometime and gave these very same people the link. One of them (a person I actually like and admire) said it was the cruelest piece of writing she’d ever read. I was shocked. To me Trinity was joyous and uplifting and a powerful tribute to the spirit and opportunity of America.

But I understand where she’s coming from. I’ve been there myself. Whittle’s POV was fairly new to me at the time and was an eye opener. Even if one doesn’t believe a perfect world is possible, one can still strive for the vision. That is until you realize that the striving itself may be doing more harm than good.

Suddenly you see reality as something that is, instead of something to fight. Then you can work within the system instead of fighting it from outside. That’s partly what my little ‘essay’ was about.

I’m not a person who believes ‘it’s MY money, how dare you give it to someone else’. I’ve just come to believe that a central government is not the most efficient tool for doing whatever.

And one of the reasons I feel so much contempt for ‘the left’ is the anguish they make nice people like the woman above feel. It almost defines her life and is very genuine. I find it tragic.

Aug 23, 2004 - 10:59 pm 140. WichitaBoy:

Syl

I’m fascinated by your comment. It would seem that a defining characteristic–maybe the defining characteristic–of the “left” is a desire to “perfect” the world. To purify it. Is this not a form of Puritanism? Is this not an essentially religious sentiment concerning our purpose here on the planet?

Yesterday I happened to come across the statement in a book I was reading that there is a Buddhist belief that the world has always been perfect and that all that remains for us is to recognize that. I found the statement to be so at odds from my usual thinking as to be shocking. How different from our Western (i.e., Christian) point of view. In the face of a world which is demonstrably outrageously tragic, we are faced with the necessity of somehow coming to grips with it. On the one hand, we believe that it is our God-given right, indeed obligation, to fix this broken world. This belief seems to have outlasted the belief in God itself. On the other hand, we are informed that our duty is to fix ourselves as it were, much as Roger once posted about the idea taught in therapy that one must live in the moment. Surely there is some wisdom in both points of view?

Aug 24, 2004 - 12:46 am

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