48 Comments

1. Michael Parker:

It’s all a matter of terminology. At the end of the day, even parliamentary systems end up with two parties: The one in power and the one out of power. These parties may consist of different named, organized factions, but the only important distinction is which ones are in power and which ones aren’t.

In the U.S., our parties are simply more organized aggregations; the closest parallels to parliamentary-style “parties” are NRA, MoveOn, Sierra Club, etc.

The important feature of the U.S. two-party system is that ruling coalitions are formed *before* the election rather than afterwards, and this combined with the winner vs loser dichotomy with no chance for post-election mulligan is what forces the interest groups to clump into two parties.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:14 am 2. Barry Dauphin:

“I have been wondering what the Hell I will be doing at the Republican Convention.”

You will be a thoughtful observer (which actually tends to take time). You also might notice things that MSM does not report on. Your Fedora can also serve as your “thinking cap.” You can walk in with the eye of a mystery writer and see what pops into your mind. After all, you’ve alluded to your interest in psychoanalysis-see what comes up.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:16 am 3. Warthog:

I’d like to see more political parties, particularly something with a Centrist platform. I have no clue what the Democratic Party is supposed to mean anymore. I envisage it as a collection of entitlement sponsors/groups with a socialist agenda. Unfairly or not I see more similarities between the New Democrats and the Islamists than between the New Democrats and say the JFK Democrats.

The Democrats describe the Republicans as if the party were comprised only of evangelicals. I see it as closer in practice to the Centrist concept, or maybe even closer to the Old Democratic party. But what do I know?

Of course any third or fourth party has zero chances of winning a presidential election.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:19 am 4. Michael Parker:

Actually, you will stick out like a sore thumb if run around wearing that fedora in a sea of blue-and-red-trimmed boaters.

If you want to feel really republican, you might want to pick up a black top hat.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:24 am 5. Steven Smith:

You been to many of these before? Were you in Chicago?

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:28 am 6. Sandy P:

Keep up the blogging, Roger, it’s working!:

http://www.democracy-project.com/archives/000464.html

…First, it seems we are experiencing one of those moments when history shifts its gears, and the accredited elites cannot seem to grasp what is happening, and cling desperately to the pieces of their fraying reputation. Itís a shift that the army of talented bloggers out there, part of one of the most genuinely populist movements ever to arise in modern American politics, has been announcing for a long time—perhaps a little prematurely and self-interestedly, but what they have been predicting is now clearly upon us….

—-

Blogging and boomers, what we talk about here.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:47 am 7. Jay Rice:

Before you go, be sure to read this article. What the media think of bloggers.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/082504/a0125gopprotesters.html

Bloggers are wondering what they will do at the convention when the events are so carefully scripted that ANYTHING they say has no real impact on the outcome. But, hey, MSM guys have done the same thing for years, pretending a participation that was entirely fake. It’s lot like the camera-hogging reporter at the scene of an accident where you try to peer around him to see what is happening.

Reporters are there to hide the view. The story is them.

I, for one, would like you to do an interview with Tim Blair so he might get in a few more words than Matt Welch.

AND – check out the DNC-sponsored, [strikeout]rioters [end strikeout] protesters.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:50 am 8. Lapsed Randian:

Somebody famous once said that the Center cannot hold. Assuming we can beat the Jihadists into submission in the next 3-5 years, either the R’s or the D’s will have to “rebrand” as the fiscally conservative/socially liberal party. I think this kind of rebranding is more likely than a viable third party.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:51 am 9. RogerA:

Roger: great pic on the WSJ piece–I was impressed by the relative youth of the bloggers, or host notwithstanding. I think that youth augers well for the future.

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:53 am 10. Jay Rice:

Wrong link.. I apologize. Gathering info about lefty groups.. Here is link to the blogger story.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/082604/a0126gopbloggers.html

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:56 am 11. Knucklehead:

RogerA,

I was impressed by the relative youth of the bloggers, or host notwithstanding.

Shhhh! Don’t remind Daddy Roger than while he’s off partying with the yutes, we’ll be trashing the yard again.

Aug 26, 2004 - 10:06 am 12. Dave Schuler:

Look at the bright side, Roger. At least you’ll be able to get a decent bagel, lox, and schmear.

Have a great time. Give us your viewpoint. That’s what we want to hear.

Aug 26, 2004 - 10:07 am 13. M. Simon:

Question authority. Here is my question:

What did you learn from alcohol prohibition?

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:00 am 14. M. Simon:

LR,

I do not think the Ds can be rebranded. The communists own it. A new party of the characteristics you describe will arise.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:03 am 15. Rick Ballard:

Knucklehead,

I spoke to the road manager for the band. He said we definitely need a backup generator – between the Jumbotron and the speaker setup he figures that we’ll be pulling more than 600AMPs. Also, the liquor store does offer a 15% discount for deliveries over $3,000 like you said – but it’s cash only. Since we’re having it billed, Roger won’t get it. Nice thought though.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:05 am 16. Sandy P:

– Your Fedora can also serve as your “thinking cap–

And then he can take it and stick it in a secret compartment in his briefcase….

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:06 am 17. holdfast:

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. There is a very closely divided Senate, and a pretty closely divided House. A third party with a a couple of seats in the Senate or a dozen or so in the House could actually have an impact. I know that rampant gerrymandering and seniority / pork-barrel based incumbency makes this hard, but winning 12 out of 400+ seats seems a lot easier than winning the Presidency.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:12 am 18. holdfast:

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. There is a very closely divided Senate, and a pretty closely divided House. A third party with a a couple of seats in the Senate or a dozen or so in the House could actually have an impact. I know that rampant gerrymandering and seniority / pork-barrel based incumbency makes this hard, but winning 12 out of 400+ seats seems a lot easier than winning the Presidency.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:13 am 19. mrp:

Slightly OT -

A sure sign that the Kerry/Edwards campaign is in deep trouble -

From the linked AP article:

John Kerry challenged President Bush on Thursday to weekly debates from now until Nov. 2 on campaign issues like education, health care and national security.

Yes, Mickey, it’s “panic time”!

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:14 am 20. holdfast:

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. There is a very closely divided Senate, and a pretty closely divided House. A third party with a a couple of seats in the Senate or a dozen or so in the House could actually have an impact. I know that rampant gerrymandering and seniority / pork-barrel based incumbency makes this hard, but winning 12 out of 400+ seats seems a lot easier than winning the Presidency

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:14 am 21. Rick Ballard:

M. Simon,

Given that the two existent parties control the government spending on which their existence depends and that they are, shall we say, unlikely to divert means to a new party, what is the basis of your belief that a new party is economically feasible?

I acknowledge that a percentage of either party might be more comfortable in a new party that assuaged their current discomfort but I don’t see a level of dissatisfaction that would provoke the level of giving necessary to sustain a new party. What do you see as a crystalizing event that would actually provoke establishment of a new party?

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:16 am 22. Silicon valley Jim:

Lapsed Randian,

“Somebody famous once said that the Center cannot hold.”

It was William Butler Yeats. Thepoem in which he said it was “The Second Coming.” The first stanza is as follows:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all convictions, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Make of the last clause what you will.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:23 am 23. Charlie (Colorado):

Holdfast:

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. ….

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. ….

What I don’t understand about US attempted third parties is why they run hopeless presidential candidates. ….

Uh, I think there’s an echo in here….

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:25 am 24. Lapsed Randian:

Rick: you didn’t ask me, but the only long shot guess I can think of for a third party would be a huge Lincoln-esque figure (nobody comes immedietely to mind…maybe a younger McCain has who has reread his copy of the Constitution…)

But we would first have to substantially win the WoT and then repeal current campaign finance laws. The problem is we will never really know if we’ve won the WoT, and R’s and D’s (as currently constituted) aren’t likely to repeal their incumbent protection schemes.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:26 am 25. Charlie (Colorado):

Given that the two existent parties control the government spending on which their existence depends and that they are, shall we say, unlikely to divert means to a new party, what is the basis of your belief that a new party is economically feasible?

Thus my assertion that it may be better to subvert the dominant paradigm than try to crush it.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:26 am 26. Charlie (Colorado):

Y’all know what a “paradigm” is, right?

Twenty cents.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:27 am 27. Charlie (Colorado):

Question authority. Here is my question:

What did you learn from alcohol prohibition?

I like this question a whole lot.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:29 am 28. Lapsed Randian:

SV Jim: I have once again demonstrated the limits of a public school education. Thanks for the citation. Rather prescient of Yeats, no?

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:30 am 29. Mark Poling:

The Bush response I’d like to see to Kerry’s “Debate a week” challenge:

I don’t know about you, but I’ve got a day job.

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:50 am 30. Knucklehead:

Mark Polling!

Thanks for the LOL. I saw the link to the Weekly Debate Challenge and was thinking, “I sure hope the POTUS has better shit to do than debate a loon once a week” when I read your comment. As we say in the trade, Yuppers!

Aug 26, 2004 - 11:59 am 31. thibaud:

New centrist party is definitely possible but it depends on the emergence of a new, dominant issue intersecting with a demographic-cum-cultural shift. Examples:

–the 1932 New Deal coalition was based on the failure of laissez faire capitalism, which coincided with the rise of an increasingly confident Catholic American population (about 25% of the total) in the big cities

–1968 Republican revival on the backs of the defection by southern white Dems over civil rights legislation and a variety of cultural issues embraced by their party

I think there has been a sharp demographic-cum-cultural shift over the last two decades. Clearly, the south and west have grown and will continue to grow rapidly. Florida has more electoral votes than Pennsylvania. Texas has almost as many as New York. The south can hold its own vs the northeast and midwest.

The prevailing “red-blue” wisdom is that these “red” regions are more religious and socially conservative than their northern “blue” counterparts, but this is BS. The population’s growing in these states precisely because they’re adding high-tech, professional, media-related and other service jobs.

These are by and large centrist or even liberal, often northern, yuppies who are moving into Charlotte and Research Triangle and Buckhead and Austin and Plano and Memphis and Boulder and Scottsdale and Provo and “New Vegas.” In other words, as the south-southwest expands, it gets more cosmopolitan, ie less socially conservative and more pro-free trade. I don’t see much evidence that either party gets this.

At the same time there’s another demographic explosion taking place in these states: the latino-ization of the US. The south-southwest is on the cutting edge here, but neither party takes these voters seriously.

There’s one more “swing” group that’s quite prominent in this region: current and inactive or retired military. The Dems seem to grasp (see Obama’s speech) that these folks are hurting economically and need help, but they can’t manage to come up with a credible national security message. The Repubs’ problem is the reverse.

What’s the thread that stitches together these three groups? An embrace of confident internationalism (in both the economic and military spheres) and a truce in the culture war.

These repudiate both the increasingly protectionist and isolationist drift of the Dems and the Rove Repubs’ eagerness to play the anti-gay and other fundamentalist cards. It’s plausible ideologically and it makes sense electorally. Win the big three (CA TX FL), sweep the west and pick off a few yuppifying states like NC, VA and NH and ME and you have a nationally-viable centrist party.

Perhaps one of the two parties will lock one or more of these three groups in the near future, but I seriously doubt it. They’re too immersed in their own ideological agendas to grasp how this country is changing.

Aug 26, 2004 - 12:11 pm 32. Knucklehead:

Rick Ballard,

He said we definitely need a backup generator – between the Jumbotron and the speaker setup he figures that we’ll be pulling more than 600AMPs.

I figured the fire had to have something to do with electricity – especially since it started in Roger’s lava lamp (that was wierd!).

Also, the liquor store does offer a 15% discount for deliveries over $3,000 like you said – but it’s cash only.

We could toss together a 527 real quick and raise that much money or, as an alternative, when I went back to retrieve my lucky camouflage snorkel I couldn’t help noticing where the safe is (man, that really is an ugly painting – where did Roger get that thing?).

I’m sure we can cover the booze bill one way or another.

Aug 26, 2004 - 12:30 pm 33. Charlie (Colorado):

I figured the fire had to have something to do with electricity – especially since it started in Roger’s lava lamp (that was wierd!).

Not so weird — the filling is basically kerosene and wax.

Probably wasn’t the best room for the nunchaku demo, though.

man, that really is an ugly painting – where did Roger get that thing?

Would you shut up about the painting until the cold cuts and antipasti arrive?

Aug 26, 2004 - 12:39 pm 34. Knucklehead:

Probably wasn’t the best room for the nunchaku demo, though.

Well, none of that this time. I arranged for the female heavyweight judu medalists from Athens to drop by and give us a demo this time.

I found a replacement lava lamp at a garage sale, BTW. Now that I know what’s in those fugly things I’ll drill it, drain it, and refill it with butane – much cleaner flame.

Aug 26, 2004 - 12:50 pm 35. RogerA:

Does Roger’s absence suggest we will be doing another 350 comment thread? those are hell to catch up on!

Aug 26, 2004 - 1:41 pm 36. Charlie (Colorado):

These are by and large centrist or even liberal, often northern, yuppies who are moving into Charlotte and Research Triangle and Buckhead and Austin and Plano and Memphis and Boulder and Scottsdale and Provo and “New Vegas.” In other words, as the south-southwest expands, it gets more cosmopolitan, ie less socially conservative and more pro-free trade. I don’t see much evidence that either party gets this.

Honey lamb, I understand your point and agree, except for one thing: if you think Boulder is getting more liberal, you’re dreaming.

How do you wet the ocean?

Aug 26, 2004 - 1:54 pm 37. Charlie (Colorado):

Well, none of that this time. I arranged for the female heavyweight judu medalists from Athens to drop by and give us a demo this time.

Couldn’t we get the beach volleyball team?

Aug 26, 2004 - 1:55 pm 38. Knucklehead:

Oh jeepers! One of y’all need to get over there and lock the gate. Pronto!

I swear Sun-Tzu said the Riders of the Khanate were just like the Dancing White Stallians only less expensive and more fun at a party or I would never have hired them. I don’t think he knows what he’s talking about. I stopped payment on the check so maybe they won’t show.

Aug 26, 2004 - 1:55 pm 39. Rick Ballard:

Charlie (C),

Why do those cities mentioned remind me more of the Hanseatic League than the basis for declaration of a demographic shift? Semi-autonomous merchant/guild run cities with special privileges for guild members. Segregation through economic isolation by virtue of careful NIMBY planning. I wonder if they’ll hire mercenaries to protect them from the nation state tax collectors.

Aug 26, 2004 - 2:07 pm 40. Terrye:

How about term limits? I think that one of the problems with the two party system is the prevalence of career politicians. No new ideas.

I used to think that elections were term limits, but that does not address the problem of party intransigence. How else can you explain the fact that Ted Kennedy is still there? Nobody will even run against him in a primary. What do they do in that state, shoot all the young promising Democrats?

KKK, the Kerry Kennedy Klan. After all these years you would think some young people would have come along.

Aug 26, 2004 - 2:47 pm 41. Knucklehead:

This is completely off topic, but following Instapundit’s link to the Carnival of the Vanities brought it to mind. Some of y’all might have dating age daughters. If so, here are Ten Rules for Dating My Daughter. John Kerry might have written Rule Ten. If so, I have finally found something he did which is worthwhile.

Aug 26, 2004 - 3:01 pm 42. lindenen:

“Win the big three (CA TX FL), sweep the west and pick off a few yuppifying states like NC, VA and NH and ME and you have a nationally-viable centrist party.”

God. Don’t remind me. They’re f*cking colonizing Virginia. I prefer rednecks to snobs.

Aug 26, 2004 - 3:13 pm 43. Erik:

Knucklehead,

Also off topic, supposedly a true story: an american friend of mine told me the first time his sister was going to go on a date. His father was an ex-cop, and I believe ex-marine, well over 6 feet and built like a tank.

The father says the doughter isn’t ready yet, and takes the young man down into the basement, to show him his gun collection, mounted on the wall. He takes down a gun and goes: “This is an UZI, it’s my favorit gun…” [clack!-clack!] “So, how long have you known my daugther?”

Aug 26, 2004 - 3:18 pm 44. ricpic:

The Democratic convention was a Potempkin Village.

My guess is that the same will be true, though somewhat more subtle, of the Republican convention.

The Republicans will be more upfront about their agenda. But the significant part of the Republican Party that is for genuinely limited government and that is also deeply concerned about the immigrant flood, legal and illegal, will be given short shrift.

A tremendous pressure of “the voiceless” is building up in the Republican Party (and maybe in “old” Democrats, as well). How this will play out in the near future I have no idea. But a great upswelling change is coming.

Aug 26, 2004 - 5:31 pm 45. Knucklehead:

Eric,

I have an “uncle” (a distant relative who we grew up calling “morbror”) who was a skeet shooter and, therefore, had a reloading press for his shotgun ammo. When young men first came to take his daughter out he made a point of sitting there reloading shells when he met them for the first time. He was a very intense looking man (a WWII and Korean era fighter pilot) and the whole routine was no doubt quite intimidating. My “aunt” would have to go to the far side of the house because she would laugh so hard while this was going on. The whole family knew the schtick.

Aug 26, 2004 - 6:12 pm 46. Charlie (Colorado):

Why do those cities mentioned remind me more of the Hanseatic League than the basis for declaration of a demographic shift?

Gee, I don’t klnow.

Semi-autonomous merchant/guild run cities with special privileges for guild members.

Yeah, that’d be it, on the button.

Aug 26, 2004 - 6:29 pm 47. Ann:

Vin Webber, former Republican House member from Minnesota had a word for all those disatisfied people, who wanted things to happen in Washington to make their lives better, but who didn’t like either party. He called them the…

Radical Middle.

I’ve always liked that term.

Aug 26, 2004 - 7:30 pm 48. richard mcenroe:

Knucklehead, Rick, Charlie(c) ó I talked to the Hooters Hollywood. They’ll send the girls and the wings but they say Roger has to do a signing there. I told them I didn’t think that would be a problem, s’okay?

Aug 26, 2004 - 9:43 pm

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