144 Comments

1. TedM:

Watching this on CSPAN is like going to a freak show. It is amusing and at the same time vile.

I used to work in 393 7th Ave and 2 Penn Plaza. The street scene is nostalgic.

It isn’t easy anywhere in this great country to assemble such a large horde of misguided misfits.

I feel a sense of dread that anywhere in a potential Kerry administration these people could have a voice.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:06 pm 2. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I envy you, Roger. These kinds of events are lots of fun (as you remember – don’t know about free doobies hits, though). And now, with digital cameras it gets even better. If you had the right stuff, you could literally blog from the middle of the crowd – using AT&T or Verizon high speed internet connectivity.

Keep an eye out for the ProtestWarriors. They’ll try to be near the head of any march – probably MoveOn’s. They have extra-tall white signs, with a leftist comment in large type and a whole bunch of reasons why it is a dumb idea in smaller print. If you see any, I’d love to see a photo.

ProtestWarrior is a national, web-based organization thought up by a couple of young guys. I’ve been on one of their operations locally and will be on another one here in town in a month or two. Of course, I’m over twice the age of most of them.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:08 pm 3. chuck:

Nice pix, Roger. Yeah, I remember hey,hey, LBJ. The strangest thing was how many of the folks taking that line were living on food stamps — courtesy of LBJ. I thought it was kind of weird myself.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:10 pm 4. cubanbob:

This treasonous trash is voting for Kerry.

As a patriotic American I know who I’m voting for.

This trash has done the country a wonderfull service by making a stark contrast between the parties for neuron impaired swing voters: pro-American vs anti-American.

Now wasn’t that an easy choice?

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:16 pm 5. Bleeding heart conservative:

Hey Rog! More quotes like that from the cops, please. It was a breath of fresh, sane air.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:19 pm 6. Swopa:

… there is an actual fledgling democratic government in place in Iraq…

Really? Who voted for them?

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:19 pm 7. Terrye:

Roger:

Looks like a regular freak show and the truth is most of them are probably from NYC. So much for showing support for the city that was attacked. Should have had their convention here in the midwest. At least we know how to behave in public.

BTW if you get a chance tell one of the young females out there that she does not speak for this old broad. In fact if they want to speak for oppressed women they can stand up for the young girls who are routinely killed in certain parts of the world for having sex, making babies and learning to read.

Yep, it is really rough to be an American female.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:19 pm 8. chuck:

Oops, timeline correction. That was after LBJ, but still late sixties/early seventies. At this point for me, everything just happened “back then.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:21 pm 9. Terrye:

Swopa:

What the hell do you care?

You and people like you have made it abundantly clear that the more Iraqis that end up dead the better.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:22 pm 10. Bleeding heart conservative:

Swopa: there have been regional and local elections. Federal will come. Other democratic reforms are well underway: 150 newspapers (only one shut down for inciting violence). The Kurdish north is very close to being the freest place in the Middle East after Israel.

As for your snark, the Iraqis are far closer to representative govt., than the colonies were 212 years ago.

Or did you prefer Saddam?

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:27 pm 11. Rick Z:

I vividly remember going to one of the big “Mobilization” anti-war marches in San Francisco in late 1969–shortly before my draft-induced enlistment. While it was certainly good fun, I remember being suddenly struck by the vanity of the whole exercise (probably between free doobie-hits).

Only on the most infantile level of human reasoning can any participant in one of these affairs believe that they have any hope of changing minds or policies.

Malignant narcissism: the residue of intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:34 pm 12. Terrye:

Bleeding heart:

Of course he prefers Saddam and Fidel and Mao and Stalin and just about any other murdering sob who hated America you can think of.

No doubt the next step is to remind me that golly gee we supported Saddam or some other such nonsense.

The truth is people like Swopa don’t really care about democracy. They don’t really care about mass graves. Their area of expertise is the smarmy snarky little gotcha.

Some little girls in Afganistan were killed because they wanted to try to learn to read. I wonder whiich side Swopa is on? The side that blew them up or the side that believes they have every right to learn to read and to vote?

I wonder….

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:38 pm 13. asher:

The majority of people – however misinformed and indoctrinated – are basically sane, rational, and sensible. Were this not the case, society could never survive.

Ordinary people observing the spectacle in New York, and those reading witless posts from mindless trolls, will conclude, correctly, that the Left has lost whatever relevance and sanity it once had. I’ve posted recently on that, and on the downward spiral of the center-left magazine The New Republic, which seems to have nowhere left to go but into moonbat country.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:42 pm 14. Catherine:

Here’s a suggestion from someone who knows a thing or two about campaigns…he’s left of left, so it’s especially…interesting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5850834/

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:52 pm 15. Dr. Rusty Shackleford:

What can I say, Roger? Just, damn.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:53 pm 16. richard mcenroe:

That’s a nice camcorder. If Ashram Andie there actually paid for it, we obviously still need to fine-tune the welfare reform,

Cheney-Condi ‘08!

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:55 pm 17. ambisinistral:

I watched the protest on CNN. Good thing they weren’t protesting the Demopcratic convention, I don’t think they would have all fit into the cage the anti-fascists built for them.

Roger, the Hari Karishnas are still around. My son is attending the University of Florida and for the first couple of years he ate many a cheap lunch provided by them.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:59 pm 18. ambisinistral:

Bah, just as I hit the submit button I noticed I had CNN instead of C-SPAN.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:00 pm 19. doug b:

I just saw one of the protesters attacking Bush for his “failure to promote democracy at home and abroad.” Are these people even paying attention to current events?

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:01 pm 20. asher:

This puts me in mind of Paul Berman’s description of another peace movement in “Terror and Liberalism”.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:05 pm 21. Swopa:

Some little girls in Afganistan were killed because they wanted to try to learn to read. I wonder whiich side Swopa is on? The side that blew them up or the side that believes they have every right to learn to read and to vote?

I’m on the side that believes we should have kept enough troops in Afghanistan to protect those little girls.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:18 pm 22. bkw:

I just saw one of the protesters attacking Bush for his “failure to promote democracy at home and abroad.” Are these people even paying attention to current events?

Sure they are. They’re just pissed that Bush isn’t paying attention to what they think he should do. After all, they’re so much smarter than him, yeah?

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:21 pm 23. ambisinistral:

Swopa,

Oh yea, we forgot little girls weren’t being killed before the US showed up.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:22 pm 24. richard mcenroe:

Roger, that’s why I avoid high school reunions.

Reading the above, is it just me or did Roger just slide about six feet farther to the right…?

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:26 pm 25. bkw:

I’m on the side that believes we should have kept enough troops in Afghanistan to protect those little girls.

Wow! I’m so glad to read that Swopa thinks we should be sending more troops to Afghanistan and Iraq, to protect those civilians who want to better themselves!

Man.

I hope when my sons grow up, they will be absolutely nothing like Swopa. That is to say : decent, honest, intelligent, and posessing a solid sense of integrity and character.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:27 pm 26. Samuel:

Roger

911 is indeed a lifetime away to many, but I do believe it is very near the surface of many that decide not to dwell on it, yet who will also have a very short trigger in response to displays of total amnesia by fools. I was only thirteen at the time, I remember 1972 and some of feelings in the air. Like with Iraq, Vietnam support was beginning to wane, but that was more because we were losing and showing no signs of winning (something the average Jacksonian hates, not playing to win) more than love of the protesters and their ridiculous displays of ill-tempered rants. Nixon in 1972 did win a higher percentage then even Reagan in 1984 (61% for Nixon – 59% for Reagan) in response to such insanity, and I remind us that the nation was much more full of Democrats those days, but then again there was more room for Zell Miller types. That being said this was also when the Democrats started losing the “Neo-cons” and Patriotic Southerners to the Republicans. I doubt the current protest and display in New York is going to give this “Neo-con Jew” (me) any reason to have second thoughts, that is for sure. Witnessing this very type of protest in 2003 is what sent me off into “Neo-con” land to begin with.

I had mentioned that I was busy and probably wouldn’t have time to attend but I do indeed have “Press go anywhere” passes, and my younger brother is begging me to take him, I think I just might. I will probably decide to just avoid the protesters at this point, my contempt for these people is deeper then most, it is more personal. Then again maybe by now I might actually find it amusing, somehow I doubt it though.

Good luck Roger, look forward to following your reports.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:29 pm 27. BrewFan:

And how many would that be swopa? You don’t know? I didn’t think so, but I give you credit for memorizing the talking points.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:30 pm 28. bkw:

I’m sorry, I should not have included Iraq in my above comment. While professing to be supportive of the little girls in Afghanistan, Swopa has said nothing about its stance in that comment regarding the little girls in Iraq, and could probably not care less about them.

My apologies.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:35 pm 29. Samuel:

Guys, don’t feed Swopa. To put it nicely, he is disingenuous and not really seeking great knowledge or wisdom. At best he is just a bottom feeder, at worst something I will decline to put into words.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:39 pm 30. Warthog:

Politics aside, the left always has way more entertaining street theatre. Beat me up for it if you want, but has anybody ever scored a chick at a Young Republicans meeting?

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:54 pm 31. Sandy P:

… there is an actual fledgling democratic government in place in Iraq…

Really? Who voted for them?

—

So, Swopa, who voted for ours in the beginning?

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:00 pm 32. Roberts:

Swopa spews: “I’m on the side that believes we should have kept enough troops in Afghanistan to protect those little girls.”

No, you are not Swopa. You are on the side that criticized the operations in Afghanistan regardless of the size of the troop commitment. You are on the side that criticized beginning the attacks in Afghanistan with silly references to the Soviets’ war in Afghanistan. You are on the side that claimed that Osama Bin Laden was all Reagan’s fault or Bush Sr’s fault or even “W”s fault. You are on the side that doesn’t care what happens in Afghanistan or in Iraq at all – unless its something bad you can blame on Republicans.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:00 pm 33. Diogenes:

Roger,

Don’t worry…..there are alot of counter protestors on the job in NYC. You might enjoy this site that is in the thick of the counter protests.

http://www.communistsforkerry.com

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:06 pm 34. Macker:

Warthog: That is why there are more Democrats than Republicans….

Roger: I get such a chuckle whenever protestors can’t correctly SPELL the names of the people they are protesting against! Yesterday it was the KKE (Greek Communists) vs. Powell, and today it’s the “vegetarians” (?) vs. Cheney.

Or for those who can’t spell, like the Palestinians, they can’t DRAW the damn swastika correctly either (pointing leftward…a GOOD swastika…as opposed to a rightward-pointing Nazi icon)!

Just goes to show you where their heads are…and it isn’t on their shoulders.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:14 pm 35. Brian:

Beat me up for it if you want, but has anybody ever scored a chick at a Young Republicans meeting?

I can neither confirm nor deny those rumors.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:16 pm 36. Samuel:

Catherine

Thanks for the link.

Everyone

This election is turning into a nightmare for Democrats, a nightmare that is just beginning. Susan Estrich and many others say this is going to blow up in Republicans face because Kerry is not Michael Dukakis and will fight back just like he did coming from behind against Bill Weld in 1996 (somehow I doubt Bob Dole didn’t help Weld in MA). Well Susan and others, I am sorry the poisonous gas that has been released in the air is not laughing gas, but an intoxicant that affects people very differently and you are about to see many Jacksonians “turn right”. 1988 was not like now, comparisons are out of order. Kerry’s unwise attempt to inoculate himself by reaching back 35 years to the turbulent years of Vietnam in reality has just caused much of his base to catch a bad disease, a disease many will run from. Those who have shallow understandings of history are particularly susceptible to this. Especially susceptible are those who romanticize the 60’s through simple prisms of peace and love, refusing to acknowledge the uglier aspects concerning those times. They blindly see themselves as the “White Knights” while all darkness in the world is attributed to their political enemies.

As a more independent minded person these days it is clear to me decisions are being forced upon many, a choice they would rather not have to make. Believe me if 61% of the voters can vote for a Richard Nixon over a bonified War hero (McGovern), then certainly 55%+ can and will vote to re-elect Bush against Kerry. Smart liberals like Trippi understand this, but he is the exception.

I had originally predicted that this election would be like 1964 as if JFK had lived. I am now beginning to believe we are living in a mixed blend of 1968 and 1972, though with differences, but none good for the Democrats. I guess they just haven’t learned from history. Will a second dose of history help? I sure hope so.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:16 pm 37. Terrye:

Samuel:

I know we should not acknowledge Swopa, but it is jsut so tempting.

Tell me what do you think the chances are we will see old hippies or women who refuse to shave their armpits carrying signs that say “More Tropos for Afghansitan”?

Pretty slim I would say.

Today I watched Fox Sunday and Juan was having a wet dream about Kerry’s war record being a plus and the big bad swifties getting their comeuppence, but I have to say that I don’t see that. When an Admiral who is not even in Swifties comes out and makes charges about Kerry embellishing his war record then this thing is not over.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:34 pm 38. Terrye:

troops not tropos. and I did that on purpose.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:35 pm 39. chuck:

troops not tropos. and I did that on purpose.

Sure you did. Maybe you should have a small drink?

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:50 pm 40. Charlie (Colorado):

Swopa: I’m on the side that believes we should have kept enough troops in Afghanistan to protect those little girls.

… while continuing to let Saddam steal billions from the mouths of little Shi’a girls in Iraq.

Oh, yeah, I’m impressed by your humanitarian credentials.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:51 pm 41. Catherine:

First…

blogs attract site pests in the same manner day trading bulletin boards attracted the same…they are paid to disrupt, take up space, go off-topic. In the case of day trading, they attempted to affect the price of a particularly volatile stock, sometimes very effectively. They were hired by hedge fund managers going short.

Now I’ve noticed the same type of behavior in the politic blogs. The pests are easy to spot, their “arguments” tend toward emotional apoplectic fits of grammarical nonsense.

Of course, I could be wrong…they could just be mind numbingly stupid and do it for free.

Second…

er…I forget. I was going to note something about 1964, ‘68, and ‘72…but I’ve faded.

Living thru those elections will do that for a person. But thanks for your insights, Samuel.

I wish Trippi could get over Gary Hart.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:00 pm 42. Samuel:

Terrye

And for sure Juan is not the brightest bulb on the panel either. He is not the only one saying this, many in my family are also saying this. I just laugh and tell them to keep dreaming. They are hoping againts hope. No matter, they are living in a world of false hope as 911 is but a distant memory for most of them.

The stupid thing is if we were attacked again they would be harder on this President than I and would neglect to see the connection to how they contributed to our weakened condition and eventual attack.

It has been said that a violent person is a low and ugly person. But I think people unwilling to protect themeselves and their own kind is even lower and uglier in my book. The Democrats right now win the ugliest contest, I don’t care how many of the “beautiful people” in Hollywood support them.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:01 pm 43. Terrye:

chuck:

I don’t drink, nor do I associate with people who do.

I prefer psychotropic drugs.

Now the question is will all these nice people taking to the streets and acting stupid help or hurt the Republicans? Or will it matter?

Reminds me of when I babysit my favorite little person and he cries for chocolate and I say no and he falls on the floor and acts like he will die if he does not get chocolate pudding this minute.

I think the demonstrators are letting us know that if we vote for the Republicans the crazies will come out in force and embarass the country even more. It is the Vote for Kerry and we shut up strategy.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:04 pm 44. Charlie (Colorado):

Rasmussen’s poll now has Bush up 48/45 nationwide, and leading in electoral votes.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:16 pm 45. Katie:

I was watching from the planter in Duffy Square by the Cohan(?) statue. I was surrounded by some British tourists, a bunch of unwashed Indymedia folks with press passes (valid?) and one very nice black guy who thought that everyone was insane. It was wonderful to watch the NYPD in action — they were stern but polite and professional. At one point, there was one boxed-in leftist taunting a whole row of cops against the police line. In most of the countries of the world, he’d have been shot on the spot or dragged off for torture. And the NYPD just stood there and let him yell. I’m proud to live in a city enforced by those folks.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:19 pm 46. Terrye:

Samuel:

I have found that when confronting the Juans of the world I just ask them if Kerry is as upfront as they say he is why doesn’t he release his records? Bush did and we all know what a liar he is, or at least that is what they say.

Half those people are not afraid of another 9/11. They think Bush was behind the attack because he wanted his buddies in the oil business to make money. Stupid and impossible to argue with. And yet when Kerry gets attacked they go crazy.

The Republicans did not put protestors in a cage. They did not threaten to sue people or shut down theatres or threaten pulishing houses or whatever. They let the Democrats have their convention without acting up and the Democrats are going to look like a bunch of heathens if they can not manage to do the same.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:21 pm 47. Charlie (Colorado):

Some more interesting news:

Peace is breaking out all over the world.

“Liberal” web site being investigated for publicizing names and addresses of convention delegates.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:23 pm 48. richard mcenroe:

“Beat me up for it if you want, but has anybody ever scored a chick at a Young Republicans meeting?”

I thought I was doing okay there for a moment once… damn Log Cabin Republicans…

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:24 pm 49. asher:

Richard McE,

LOL!

Charlie/CO,

this is great news! I was following the whole Indymedia thing on LGF … glad to see they’re getting what’s coming to them.

And good use of scare quotes.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:28 pm 50. WichitaBoy:

Samuel: The stupid thing is if we were attacked again they would be harder on this President than I and would neglect to see the connection to how they contributed to our weakened condition and eventual attack.

It’s a state of extended childhood. Eight-year-olds think exactly this way.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:30 pm 51. Yehudit:

“Really? Who voted for them?”

Being snide and disparaging is SO useful. One main reason I don’t want Kerry in office is because he represents people with attitudes like yours.

The Iraqi interim government is like the US government before the Constitution was written and signed. No one voted for them either, but they set up a government that allowed a democracy to develop. That’s why Roger said “fledgling.”

Meanwhile there have been some local elections in the north and south, secret ballot, women voting, with secular professionals winning out over clerics. Lots of NGOs giving seminars in how to make a democratic society. Etc. It’s coming along.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:30 pm 52. ambisinistral:

The Liberal privacy advocates are going to go nuts that they are being investigated for releasing names, addresses and telephone numbers of Republican delegates on a web site. No doubt the investigation are police state tactics to squash peaceful protest.

What a world.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:34 pm 53. lindenen:

Katie, what did the British tourists think of the proceedings?

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:35 pm 54. Charlie (Colorado):

No doubt the investigation are police state tactics to squash peaceful protest.

Ambi, you looked.

“But civil rights advocates argue that the Internet postings amount to political dissent, not threats or intimidation.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:41 pm 55. swampfox:

There were even signs begging for Sadaam’s release. You have to wonder what new yorkers are smoking these days. Did anyone else think the mock coffins were ironic? I thought of the victims of 9/11 who no doubt were not in the collective consciousness of the protestors.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:46 pm 56. Syl:

Yeah, peace is breaking out and so is genocide.

Funny how the first makes the UN look good and the second is ignored.

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:48 pm 57. Terrye:

Syl:

Did you look at Catherine’s link? Trippi is saying don’t get too rowdy in NY. He even implied that the Republicans might be responsible for violence themselves.

Thorazine might be helpful for Trippi’s paranoia, in truth we need to provide it in bulk for the Democrats.

Aug 29, 2004 - 5:14 pm 58. Gronkle:

“But civil rights advocates argue that the Internet postings amount to political dissent, not threats or intimidation.”

Hasn’t this issue been adjudicated already? I thought the issue of posting names of “enemies” came up in court when anti-abortion groups posted photos and addresses of abortionists (oops, sorry – ‘abortion providers’) with the intention that someone else would be inspired to carry out hits on them. I think at the time the court found that this posting constituted a conspiracy to incite murder. Assuming that there are some legally trained minds who read this (and who are not co-opted by ACLU-think), I’d be interested in the legal status of this type of activity.

Aug 29, 2004 - 5:15 pm 59. Beldar:

Thank you, Roger, for this post, and especially for the picture of and quote from the NYPD guys. Priceless and pithy! Hope you continue having great fun in the Big Apple!

Aug 29, 2004 - 5:41 pm 60. Old Grouch:

Well, here’s something from LGF about the 911truth.org folks:

[The Enemy Within]…

Don’t detect much truth there, no…

Aug 29, 2004 - 5:45 pm 61. Katie:

Lindenen — The only one of the Brits that I got to talk to was about 14, and mostly he didn’t know what was going on. He and I were trying to to figure out what the protesters were chanting (It sounded like “No More Democracy” but I think we determined that they were trying to say “Go Home, RNC.” Either could have fit.) and so then he had me explain what the RNC was, etc. His parents seemed more concerned with catching the Grayline tour bus than ridding the world of Bush.

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:07 pm 62. insatty:

When I was 12 years old in 1969, my friends and I would take the train from San Mateo into San Francisco and then the electric bus into the Haight-Ashbury District. We would have so much fun watching the flower children high on LSD, having sex on the sidewalks, and either passing out or vomiting into the streets. Looking at the 2004 NYC rabble reminds me of 1969. My father, the only Jewish Republican in the Bay Area, used to say, “They’d be singing a different tune if the commies invaded Frisco instead of Khe San.”

I used to think my dad was a right-wing nut. Now I realize how right he was, may he rest in peace. These left-wing nuts parading down 5th Ave. would be singing different tunes had some terrorist islamofascist flew a 757 into their homes. To hell with them all!

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:27 pm 63. Charlie (Colorado):

Watching Susan Estrich is getting to be a real comedy show. But she — on Fox News — just revealed what I think may be a real hint of some preparation for the future: she said that she’d hate to see Bush win on the SwiftVets stuff, because “that would be an illegitimate victory”.

Prediction — everyone write this down, now — if Bush wins the election, there will be an effort to overturn the election in some swing states on this basis; and a serious attempt will be made in Congress to file articles of impeachment on the theory that Bush was violating the McCain-Feingold law.

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:43 pm 64. Rhod:

In another age, at a different time, and over different issues, many in this type of crowd would later be smashing shop windows with the same enthusiasm as their precursors in Germany. The undifferentiated hatred is the same, the fantasy life indistinguishable and the paranoia just as deep. These are not good people.

The rest of them, having spilled from the bars, whorehouses and dope joints, dancing on the grave of their own civilization, would marvel at the sight of all that glass in the streetlights. What a party. You should have been there.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:01 pm 65. doug b:

Charlie (Colorado)

Your prediction strikes me as a bit too fevered. But I think you’d be right in predicting that it will taken as the reason for a Bush victory if Bush in fact wins. The Bush smeared Kerry idea will make a very handy rationale for defeat by those who can’t lose on the merits.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:11 pm 66. Syl:

Charlie

You beat me to it! Yes I was stunned when Susan came out with that ‘illegitimate victory’ bit! She showed her hand and now we know what to expect.

People have a right to their opinions, but they do not have a right to getting their way. It seemed obvious to me that Susan believes Democrats should have this election as a gimme.

Terrye

“Thorazine might be helpful for Trippi’s paranoia, in truth we need to provide it in bulk for the Democrats.”

Including Susan Estrich (whom I like). To me it’s their own fault that they nominated the empty suit with the magic hat and the secret plan. If they’d nominated someone else the Swiftboat Vets would never have been heard from.

And she went on about how bad it must feel to have your service questioned. Well, Susan, ask the Swiftboat vets how they feel about just that!

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:12 pm 67. Terrye:

They were screaming Go home RNC? What the hell, they don’t own the whole damn city, they just think they do.

In truth the RNC probably wishes it could go home. Except for a few rabid Dem cab drivers I bet they don’t turn away Republican money though do they? I have to admit I like NYC less today than I did before. freak show.

Charlie if the Dems try to impeach on something that stupid the whole country will have a fit.

They need to learn to grow up.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:15 pm 68. Catherine:

Gosh. Another Catherine-with-a-C.

I thought I was the only one. (Seriously. For years I’ve given my name, over the phone, as “Catherine-with-a-C.”)

Seeing as how I live here, I’m going to have to get in to NYC to watch a protest, and I think I’ll take my 10-year old with me.

Anyone got a schedule?

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:16 pm 69. Terrye:

Syl:

Or she could ask the president of the United States.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:16 pm 70. chuck:

Charlie(C)

Prediction — everyone write this down, now — if Bush wins the election, there will be an effort to overturn the election in some swing states on this basis; and a serious attempt will be made in Congress to file articles of impeachment on the theory that Bush was violating the McCain-Feingold law.

Prediction — If they try this they will lose big in the next midterm election. These folks seem to have a death wish, and in this case I’ll go for the modified golden rule: do unto others as others would have you do unto them.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:19 pm 71. Terrye:

Catherine:

Are you taking a child out to see these crazies? The poor baby will be marked.

We will call you Catherine#1.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:20 pm 72. Oscar:

Terrye-

“Should have had their convention here in the midwest. At least we know how to behave in public.”

As I recall, the ‘68 convention was in Chicago, a part of the midwest. In this country it is easy to get anywhere..

My memory of the 68 convention is warped, as I was in Europe, and, like most folks there, more concerned by the goings on in Czechoslovakia, not Chicago. I remember with embaressment when the German farm wife whose family I was living with, our unit housed a lot of folks “on the economy” came into the room while we were watching news fron Chicago, and asked “Oh, is that Prague??” We all felt about 6 inches high….

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:25 pm 73. Terrye:

If these people can not accept the results just because they are not what they want a lot of people will turn on them. This is getting old.

It is not Bush’s fault that Kerry is a dumbass who made a point of making enemies out of a bunch of pissed off old soldiers. Mr. Wonderful should have thought of that before he called them war criminals in front of the whole damn country.

Gale is an Independent but when I mentioned this to him he rolled his eyes and said he would never vote for a Democrat again if they don’t cut this stuff out.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:26 pm 74. richard mcenroe:

Rhod ó “The rest of them, having spilled from the bars, whorehouses and dope joints, dancing on the grave of their own civilization, would marvel at the sight of all that glass in the streetlights. What a party. You should have been there” ó I didn’t know you were a UCLA grad…

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:28 pm 75. chuck:

Rhod

In another age, at a different time, and over different issues, many in this type of crowd would later be smashing shop windows with the same enthusiasm as their precursors in Germany.

The night of the Columbia bust, folks were running in the street and breaking shop windows. A emigrant from Nazi Germany was standing beside me watching, and he said precisely that: that it reminded him of the thirties in Germany.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:28 pm 76. Charlie (Colorado):

Doug B:Your prediction strikes me as a bit too fevered.

Well, as Michael Crichton pointed out in his excellent speech:

You can’t lose. Even though the speculation is correct only by chance, which means you are wrong at least 50% of the time, nobody remembers and therefore nobody cares. You are never accountable. The audience does not remember yesterday, let alone last week, or last month. Media exists in the eternal now, this minute, this crisis, this talking head, this column, this speculation.

So I figure, why not be a pundit?

(Actually, I’m serious about the prediction. I might be wrong, I kind of hope I am, but it’s still my prediction.)

It seemed obvious to me that Susan believes Democrats should have this election as a gimme.

You know, I don’t know what to think. I actually like Susan Estrich in general, because it appears that she was somewhat humbled by the Dukakis campaign and willing to try to look objectively at things. (Jerry Brown much the same: I thought he was nuts as a national politician, but he sounds somewhat reasonable now.)

My own suspicion is that Susan is a good enough advocate that she can argue for her position in the fae of almost anything; on the other hand, I think she’s really beginning to have to scrabble hard to find something to advocate with.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:29 pm 77. Terrye:

Oscar:

To be truthful I was thinking of Indianapolis. The demonstrators can get anywhere but Hoosiers are not like the citizens of Cook county. I think they would find the reception here quite different.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:29 pm 78. Charlie (Colorado):

Oh, PS: thanks to whomever first pointed out tht Crichton piece; I’ve forgotten who it was, but it is excellent.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:31 pm 79. Charlie (Colorado):

It looks, from the previews on Geraldo’s show, that Bush is going to end up looking pretty good on the Today show tomorrow.

Bush is very generous toward Kerry; it’s going to be tough to do the “Bush is a meany” thing.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:34 pm 80. Rick Ballard:

Esterich should take a look at the huge success of the “We wuz robbed” strategy that has been playing since the ‘00 election. McAuliffe’s stunning success in unseating Jeb Bush comes to mind, as do the overall results of the ‘02 election wrt to net pickups for Republicans. Never forget how shrewdly she managed the Dukakis campaign in ‘88 either.

If the election can be called into question by suits in 2-3 states, then suits will be filed. They just won’t succeed. BTW – the stage is already being carefully set in Florida – recent news articles have mentioned Florida state troopers scaring elderly black people throught investigation of voter fraud committed in previous elections.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:36 pm 81. Syl:

Terrye

“Or she could ask the president of the United States.”

Bingo. The Dems aboslutely do not understand double-standards. When asked why only the Swiftboat Vets ads should be banned and not the others, Susan said the Swiftboat ads were lies.

I still like her.

I keep telling myself.

Oscar

“”Oh, is that Prague??” ”

That’s funny. But not surprising…nothing to feel silly about. Those were bad times here and many Americans were probably wondering the same thing.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:37 pm 82. Terrye:

Charlie:

Yeah, Bush said that Kerry was in harm’s way and that he respected his service and all. I heard about it but did not see any of it.

Must burn Kerry’s butt to have Bush come to his defence.

But the part of all this that will hurt Kerry the most will be his actions and words after the war and so much of that is a matter of public record and common knowledge that I really don’t see how anyone can make a case that only the swifites hurt Kerry. I think that if not for them the Bushies might have used some of that old film footage or at least some of Kerry’s own words. who knows?

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:40 pm 83. Terrye:

Rick:

I have got an idea, why don’t we just not let Florida vote?

Anyone that knows anything about how elections work know that the real work is done on a local level. You register to vote and you vote local. If the county or township people screw things up that is not the Governor’s fault. One of the problems in Florida in 2000 was nepotism in certain Democratic districts. But they got through the Governor’s race without any real problems, so maybe there is hope.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:47 pm 84. Syl:

Terrye

“I think that if not for them the Bushies might have used some of that old film footage or at least some of Kerry’s own words. who knows?”

McCain (and even the Bush campaign, I believe) have already said the anti-war stuff is legitimate to raise as an issue.

Though I don’t see how the Bush campaign can do ads of that stuff without the sound of harmononious chords with the SBV.

The records stolen from Nicosia are obviously a curious matter (to be kind).

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:53 pm 85. Catherine:

Samuel

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

As aggravated as I get by analogies to Vietnam, I’m starting to have trouble telling things apart myself (the photo of the Low Carb protesters is a big help in that regard, thank you, Roger).

Oxblog (Patrick Belton, I think) had a hilarious bit about the Democratic convention that I posted in an earlier thread:

I discuss the hidden messages being conveyed by all of the veteran symbology with the delegate next to me. We decide the message transmitted by all of the invocation of veterans is:

Vietnam=Iraq

mendacious government at the time of Vietnam = Bush

speaking the truth to power = veterans, Kerry, and RFK

This, of course, puts the Democratic back on the solid and successful footing of the Chicago convention of 1968.

It’s worse than 68, though; it’s 1972. It’s Nixon-McGovern.

Immediately after the Democratic convention I thought, Good Lord, did we just watch John Kerry McGovernize himself? Why would he do that?

….

You know what this is like?

This is like those criminals who return to the scene of the crime.

If they’d just kept on moving they would have gotten away with it.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:54 pm 86. Catherine:

Forget scene of the crime, it’s the return of the repressed.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:55 pm 87. Terrye:

Catherine:

They are sociopaths, they do not realize they have committed a crime. They lack the ability to understand the consequences of their actions. They do not understand that rules apply to them as well as others. They exist in a world where they feel persecuted and used, a world in which dark forces [the vast right wing conspiracy] are aligned against them.

It is an interesting case study in mass hysteria of sorts, sort of a modern day version of the Salem Witch Trials.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:05 pm 88. Catherine:

Catherine with a C,

Yeah, I have dealt with that confusion all my life. I have an aversion to “K”s…

hey, maybe that explains things!

Be careful with your child in NYC!

Mine is a Marine, overseas…he’s probably safer there.

Best,

Catherine #2

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:06 pm 89. Solomon:

Smart of the GOP not to try to keep all the goofballs bottled up in cages like the Dems did here in Boston (or was that a choice of the Boston security people – or some combination?).

Let ‘em get their freak on for the cameras. The freakier and more disruptive the better. “Mr. and Mrs. America, are you with us, or with what’s going on out there?” The choice is clear.

I bet the GOP even gets the balloon drop right. Go balloons!

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:07 pm 90. Terrye:

Syl:

I think most people think that Kerry made himself out to be a bigshot when he was not. I don’t think they will ever really get the orchestrated efforts made over the years to construct this fantasy of his. And yes the stolen letters are interesting.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:09 pm 91. Syl:

This election is a true test of our system. Do we have the wisdom to defend ourselves or not? How much influence can we bear from an almost not-free press?

The main problem I see is that a certain level of trust has broken down. The Democrats don’t trust Bush and we don’t trust the Democrats. I honestly feel that whatever they accuse others of is exactly what they’re capable of doing themselves.

And the Democrats never accepted the decision of the Supreme Court. It’s the final law of the land. When the 9 speak, you file it away and turn to other concerns or work through the legislative branch to make changes. You don’t dismiss the decision as illegitimate. That undermines our democracy.

This is not good.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:11 pm 92. richard mcenroe:

Hey. hey. LBJ…

Reminds me, one of the reasons I always knew Hussein was in trouble. Tough to make a decent chant out of his name:

Saddam, Saddam,

He’s our man!

If he can’t do it,

Al-Sadr can!

Just doesn’t sing, does it…

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:24 pm 93. Catherine:

Terrye

We will call you Catherine#1.

Thank you, but I’m afraid that will be way too hierarchical.

I will have to expand outward to an identifying initial.

Other Catherine (OK, “Other Catherine” is not going to work; I can see that):

We definitely can’t go with Catherine #1 and Catherine #2 if you’ve got a son in the Marines.

That’s gonna make you 1, 2, & 3.

Where is your son?

(Of interest to no one on the planet but Catherine & I, my best friend in college thought the Catherine-with-a-C business was so hilarious she used to send letters to me addressed to “Catherine-with-a-C.”)

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:24 pm 94. Syl:

Terrye

“I think most people think that Kerry made himself out to be a bigshot when he was not.”

That’s enough for many, I think. Especially when it’s the bigshot image he wants us to believe makes him eligible to be CiC.

The period of time between the Swiftvets initial press conference and today is almost as little time as Kerry spent on a swiftboat.

What’s that equivalent to? A semester in school? A summer job? Longer than a vacation but not nearly long enough for a sabbatical. One can’t even write a book in that time. Or a movie. Much less time than it takes a little robot to get to Mars.

Well, he got shot at, and that counts for something. But attempt to innoculate yourself against almost a 20-year career leftish record in the Senate with just over 4 months?

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:28 pm 95. FredRum:

The next time Bush comes to Kerry’s defense and praises his service, he should take the extra step and say something like:

“I have one piece of advice for John Kerry. When those folks came out and made accusations about my own military service, I signed Form 180 to release all of my records and proved them all wrong. If John Kerry did so I’m sure he would get the same result, and then we could all move on to discussing the issues that matter to the American people.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:32 pm 96. WichitaBoy:

Quite right, Syl.

Reminds me of another decision of the 9 considered to be illegitimate at the time. You know where that led. I’ve been wondering for some time whether we’re descending into another Civil War. Why do these things occur? Maybe it’s because there’s a fundamental disagreement as to the nature of reality. We’re seeing this sort of disagreement again now. I don’t know where this will lead but wherever it is it won’t be a good place.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:33 pm 97. Catherine:

Katie & insatty

In most of the countries of the world, he’d have been shot on the spot or dragged off for torture.

I have a great story along those lines.

I worked with a woman who immigrated from China with her family when she was a child.

Shortly after they arrived in this country they attended a tennis game, I think it was, and when the National Anthem came on she looked around and noticed that half the people around her were talking, eating, walking in and out of the stands, etc.

She said she was scared to death. She thought the secret police were going to burst into the stands and slaughter all the disrespectful citizens putting food in their mouths when they should have been standing at attention saluting their flag.

True story.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:34 pm 98. Catherine:

Charlie

Prediction — everyone write this down, now — if Bush wins the election, there will be an effort to overturn the election in some swing states on this basis; and a serious attempt will be made in Congress to file articles of impeachment on the theory that Bush was violating the McCain-Feingold law.

I think the only way anything like that can happen will be if the election is another squeaker (and I don’t think we’ll see impeachment proceedings filed under any circumstances).

If Bush wins decisively, and that’s what I’m expecting at this point, barring unknown unknowns & unforeseen unforeseens, I think it could be good for the Democratic Party. The DLC can take it over again, and steer it back to the Center.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:38 pm 99. richard mcenroe:

Insatty ó “They’d be singing a different tune if the commies invaded Frisco instead of Khe San.” Maybe not. In 1940. after Dunkirk, The novelist Virginia Woolf wrote in her diary, complaining about all the tiresome men defacing the beaches with their trenches and wire, and how, “Oh, well, there’s nothing for it but to commit suicide like civilized people when the Germans come ashore.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:41 pm 100. Rick Ballard:

Terrye,

I’m not terribly concerned with FL. The panhandle won’t be staying home and all the military votes will be counted. Additionally, FL teamed up with NY and has notified about 40,000 snowbirds that they don’t actually get to vote in two places. Plus, I’m picking Martinez over McCollum on Tuesday and if I’m right the Cuban turnout should be phenomenal.

PA and MI are more of a concern. If western PA will hold its results until Philly reports then Bush will win rather easily. His support of Spector was predicated on building on Spector’s organization to strengthen GOTV efforts. MI is a bit more problematic because it is less dependent upon fraud than PA. Of course, if OH steadies up for Bush then MI is meaningless.

Kerry has already given up on AR, LA and MO. Advertising has been eliminated from the campaign budget for all three. LA is not actually a battleground state but the Dems were spending a little dough there anyway. AZ should be pulled from the battleground states now that MCCain is back in hug mode.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:46 pm 101. WichitaBoy:

richard mcenroe

Nice little vignette. Isn’t she the author of “A Reality of One’s Own”?

Rick Ballard

I predict: FL, MO, NV, AZ, WV will all go to Bush, together with at least one of WI, OH, MI, PA, OR, NM, IA. All the other states are pretty clear already.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:57 pm 102. Brian:

Terrye: I have to admit I like NYC less today than I did before.

Maybe our fair city will return to your good graces when you read what Hizonner has been saying.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:07 pm 103. Catherine:

I went to school with Susan Estrich, and though I didn’t know her, I saw her around the dorm & thought she was a great gal.

So I don’t want to be trashing her, but I think she and others are fighting the last war.

This isn’t Dukakis not-standing-up-to Lee Atwater.

This is John Kerry turning his boat and attacking the men he once served with.

You guys may want to check out Kaus’s post today; he’s on target as usual. I was inspired to send him an email on the subject of Kerry’s Dreadful Campaign, and here is part of it:

……

John Kerry couldnÔøΩt have picked a worse strategy for responding to the Swifties if heÔøΩd sat down and brainstormed Ways To Lose with a focus group.

Forget the ÔøΩreturn to normalcyÔøΩ (though I think you, Peggy Noonan & everyone else are right about that), the Swifties are Vietnam veterans. For many in America they are victims: these are men who went off to Vietnam to fight a bloody and brutal war, then came back to be spit on by their fellow citizens at the airport.

Attacking them is like attacking Juanita Broaddrick. Mistake.

Check out The Corner. TheyÔøΩve posted an email from a Vietnam veteran saying that if John Kerry is defeated that will be the parade they never had.

ItÔøΩs not just veterans who feel that way. Many Americans feel some degree of collective guilt over the way our veterans were treated. I sure do, and I didnÔøΩt do any of the spitting, or any of the bad-mouthing, either. (Worse yet for Kerry, at least judging by the response I got to this idea on Roger SimonÔøΩs blog, itÔøΩs entirely possible that the people feeling guilty are mainly liberals & Democrats, not conservatives & Republicans. If thatÔøΩs the case, Kerry is putting his own party in touch with some very bad feelings about long-ago actions and emotions. How smart is that?)

Add that together with the fact that we are in a war nowÔøΩor at the very least a Conflict that requires the active attention & sacrifices of our militaryÔøΩand the sight of John Kerry ÔøΩturning his boatÔøΩ on his fellow soldiers is horrifying.

Exactly how well is this guy going to be able to lead the military as Commander in Chief? That question has got to be running through many peopleÔøΩs minds now, consciously or not.

. . . . . .

Back to the thread:

This episode has made me see the limits of pundits & political writers & consultants.

Apart from Kaus, Democratic insiders are all experiencing the Swift Boat campaign in analogy to every other campaign scandal they’ve encountered before.

But it is completely different.

The Swifties represent, and awaken, core beliefs, needs, emotions, you name it. They are practically archetypal.

No one in this country wants to watch a potential President fight the soldiers he once served with, not even Juan Williams & Susan Estrich.

No one.

. . . . .

For the veterans who read this blog, I want to add that I’m sorry to be comparing you to Juanita Broaddrick, and I hope you aren’t offended.

I mention Broaddrick only because she is the best I can come up with in terms of an accuser who can’t be attacked in return without doing fatal damage to the person accused.

Bill Clinton was smart enough to know that.

One other thing: Mickey Kaus seems to be the only living soul in the Democratic Party who understands that having John Kerry “turn his boat” into the Swifties & attack is the worst thing he could do.

That fact alone makes me worry even more about the Democrats and their ability to handle defense than I have been worrying already.

The Dems in this instance seem not to have the remotest sense of what the military means to the people of this country, or what all the big fuss is about.

They are like agnostics, in a way. They’re acting as if they don’t share in the national “civic religion.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:08 pm 104. lindenen:

“In 1940. after Dunkirk, The novelist Virginia Woolf wrote in her diary, complaining about all the tiresome men defacing the beaches with their trenches and wire, and how, “Oh, well, there’s nothing for it but to commit suicide like civilized people when the Germans come ashore.”

Ever wonder if some people are just an example of natural selection in action?

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:11 pm 105. Rick Ballard:

WichitaBoy,

What I find conceptually intriguing is the idea that these demonstrations could do anything but help Bush. Soros may be very rich but he is as politically inept a player as has ever come on the stage. Of course, he’s in good company with the MSM idiots who are playing up the demonstrations as if they were going to positively affect the outcome for Kerry.

Wonder how Goof’s smile is holding up. Don’t think he’s been around much lately.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:16 pm 106. Catherine:

everyone

Anyone who’s interested in America’s “civil religion” can read the essay I read in PUBLIC INTEREST. Here’s an excerpt:

But civil religion also had its defenders. One of them, the sociologist Robert N. Bellah, put the term on the intellectual map, arguing in an influential 1967 article called ÔøΩCivil Religion in AmericaÔøΩ that the . . . American civil religion was . . . something far deeper and more worthy of respectful study, a body of symbols and beliefs that was not merely a watered down Christianity but possessed a ÔøΩseriousness and integrityÔøΩ of its own. Beginning with an examination of references to God in John F. KennedyÔøΩs Inaugural Address, Bellah detected in the American civil-religious tradition a durable and morally challenging theme: ÔøΩthe obligation, both collective and individual, to carry out GodÔøΩs will on earth.ÔøΩ Hence Bellah took a much more positive view of that tradition, though not denying its potential pitfalls. Against the critics, he argued that ÔøΩthe civil religion at its best is a genuine apprehension of universal and transcendent religious reality as seen in or … revealed through the experience of the American people.ÔøΩ It provides a higher standard against which the nation could be held accountable.

GodÔøΩs chosen people

For Bellah and others, the deepest source of the American civil religion is the Puritan-derived notion of America as a New Israel, a covenanted people with a divine mandate to restore the purity of early apostolic church, and thus serve as a godly model for the restoration of the world. John WinthropÔøΩs famous 1630 sermon to his fellow settlers of Massachusetts Bay, in which he envisioned their ÔøΩplantationÔøΩ as ÔøΩcity upon a hill,ÔøΩ is the locus classicus for this idea of American chosenness. It was only natural that inhabitants with such a strong sense of historical destiny would eventually come to see themselves and their nation as collective bearers of a world-historical mission.

Obviously the military is central to this “religion” (various political philosophers have pointed this out) so you really don’t want your candidate in a shooting war with our country’s soldiers.

http://www.thepublicinterest.com/previous/article3.html

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:18 pm 107. devildog:

I bet this was a Kodak moment…

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:24 pm 108. Kevin P:

Roger:

You might want to tell the protesters who are claiming that they want to start a revolution that the man that they will be voting for is as revolutionary as those steak knives on the infomercials. He is a poll driven hack who will say anything to get in power and will do anything to stay once he gets there. He might appoint a board to study dropping NAFTA but he won’t do anything to change it. He will make a lot of noise about the Kyoto treaty but will not implement it. He will cut and run from Iraq but when they hit us again he will bomb them like Clinton and when they cry out about the innocent civilians he will tell them he fought in Vietnam. If they try to hurt him in the following elections all they will do is put Republicans back in power. In short, all the precious goals they have set for their revolution will not be met by the arrogant, weak, and unprincipled clown they are trying to elect. His wife has more spine then he does. Moore and Jackson will be in the same march in 2008 and they will have no effect then as they will have no effect now. Kerry will be for the revolution and against it at the same time.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:28 pm 109. Catherine:

9-11 relative & Bush-Kerry-Swifties

I just found this in a TIMES article on 9-11 relatives:

Diane Fairben, whose son Keith was a paramedic who arrived at the trade center minutes after the first plane hit, said she remembered thinking when the war in Iraq began, “This is the beginning of more young people dying.”

But her thinking mirrored the sometimes contradictory views of 9/11 families. Mrs. Fairben, who described herself as a registered Democrat, said she expected to vote for Mr. Bush in November. She said Mr. Kerry’s handling of attacks on his Vietnam record had not impressed her enough to win her vote.

Also, she said, “I agree with the president right now that we’ve got to keep doing what we’re doing in Iraq, and I’m afraid to think what would happen if Kerry would undo that.”

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:30 pm 110. penwil:

Catherine,

He not only turned his boat into the swifties and attacked, he tried to mess with the first amendment, he also whined, stamped his foot and cried no fair, and when that didn’t work he went begging to Pres. Bush to make the meanies stop. He truly couldn’t have behaved less presidential. People have got to be wondering if this would be his modus operendi in dealing with the terrorists–send Max Cleland to Osama’s cave with a letter asking him to make his jihadists play nice?

I also think people are going to start to wonder how Kerry is going to effectively command a military that they can now see openly despises him.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:36 pm 111. TmjUtah:

Catherine (I have NO idea which one, both of you are great…) -

“If Bush wins decisively, and that’s what I’m expecting at this point, barring unknown unknowns & unforeseen unforeseens, I think it could be good for the Democratic Party.”

I don’t think what the margin of victory (in a Bush win) means one whit to the “party”.

The party consists of Terry MacAullife and the Clintons. Period. Oh, and a fat checkbook…whose deposit records have more fake names than a South Side Chicago voter roll book.

Back during the primaries I read several articles that mentioned that MacAullife was preparing to retire. Notice how that little piece of information isn’t anywhere on the scope any more? Aside from a brief flurry of Clinton Legacy Crew appearances and the ever-reliable John McCain there are NO national level Democrats out there on the wire for Kerry.

None. I don’t count Cleland. Everybody takes a part time job when times are tough. Embarassing, though, wasn’t it?

No…no, I think that the Swifts have actually done the “party” a favor. If Bush has a good convention, lays out an adult agenda focusing on the world we live in and the challenges we face, and pledges to pursue a principled debate of the issues for the rest of the campaign…I believe all the MSM folks who have carried water against the Swifts to date will suddenly come to Jesus and slaughter Kerry.

Where is ANY profit for the “party” attempting to debate anything beyond ABB? What’s to debate where the question is “which party is better equipped, better manned, and historically capable of defending America and providing sound leadership in troubling economic times?”

Nope, much better to stoke the fires of suspicion and hate – pack that pressure cooker with propaganda, indictments of Rove’s dirty tricks, and DU paranoia about the fascist regime. Last thing any of those moonbats in the streets of NYC will willingly do is to honestly assess the “party”…because deep down they know that it doesn’t really exist anymore. The people on stilts don’t have hopes and dreams; they’ve got pet peeves that they have carefully nurtured into full blown neuroses. Oh, there’s a brand, for sure, but the keys are held by a small handful of people supremely confident that nobody else wants the damn meaningless job.

The Democratic party faithful in the streets are the Washington Senators of our time. They have to fire their management and buy a clue (okay, a life) before they have any business asking for trust from the nation.

If Bush hits Thursday up five points on Rasmussen or Battleground, we’ll never even hear about issues from now until November. We’ll get even measures of ‘flawed candidate’ mixed with ‘Republican hit squads’.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:41 pm 112. TmjUtah:

Catherine (I have NO idea which one, both of you are great…) -

“If Bush wins decisively, and that’s what I’m expecting at this point, barring unknown unknowns & unforeseen unforeseens, I think it could be good for the Democratic Party.”

I don’t think what the margin of victory (in a Bush win) means one whit to the “party”.

The party consists of Terry MacAullife and the Clintons. Period. Oh, and a fat checkbook…whose deposit records have more fake names than a South Side Chicago voter roll book.

Back during the primaries I read several articles that mentioned that MacAullife was preparing to retire. Notice how that little piece of information isn’t anywhere on the scope any more? Aside from a brief flurry of Clinton Legacy Crew appearances and the ever-reliable John McCain there are NO national level Democrats out there on the wire for Kerry.

None. I don’t count Cleland. Everybody takes a part time job when times are tough. Embarassing, though, wasn’t it?

No…no, I think that the Swifts have actually done the “party” a favor. If Bush has a good convention, lays out an adult agenda focusing on the world we live in and the challenges we face, and pledges to pursue a principled debate of the issues for the rest of the campaign…I believe all the MSM folks who have carried water against the Swifts to date will suddenly come to Jesus and slaughter Kerry.

Where is ANY profit for the “party” attempting to debate anything beyond ABB? What’s to debate where the question is “which party is better equipped, better manned, and historically capable of defending America and providing sound leadership in troubling economic times?”

Nope, much better to stoke the fires of suspicion and hate – pack that pressure cooker with propaganda, indictments of Rove’s dirty tricks, and DU paranoia about the fascist regime. Last thing any of those moonbats in the streets of NYC will willingly do is to honestly assess the “party”…because deep down they know that it doesn’t really exist anymore. The people on stilts don’t have hopes and dreams; they’ve got pet peeves that they have carefully nurtured into full blown neuroses. Oh, there’s a brand, for sure, but the keys are held by a small handful of people supremely confident that nobody else wants the damn meaningless job.

The Democratic party faithful in the streets are the Washington Senators of our time. They have to fire their management and buy a clue (okay, a life) before they have any business asking for trust from the nation.

If Bush hits Thursday up five points on Rasmussen or Battleground, we’ll never even hear about issues from now until November. We’ll get even measures of ‘flawed candidate’ mixed with ‘Republican hit squads’.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:42 pm 113. TmjUtah:

Sorry about the double post.

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:44 pm 114. Brian:

She said Mr. Kerry’s handling of attacks on his Vietnam record had not impressed her enough to win her vote.

You know what I’ve been pondering lately? If Kerry can be as blindsided as he seems to have been by the attack on his Vietnam record – caught slack-jawed and flat-footed by an offensive which any nincompoop could have seen coming months ago – how in the hell is he going to outfox the Iranians?

Aug 29, 2004 - 9:48 pm 115. Swopa:

Interesting to come in at the end of a weekend and see general agreement on what a horrible, vile, Saddam-loving person I am.

And what sparked this?

I dared to mention that the Allawi government is unelected.

Which, of course, no one disputed, because it’s a fact.

Having no facts, and not willing to admit the one I brought up, they had no choice but to insult me personally.

Just another night on the oasis of civil, intelligent discourse that is Roger Simon’s blog. Oh, well.

I’d say more, but I have to go off and prepare for the midnight sacrifice. My fellow Satanists and I are going to get together and eat some babies. Pleasant dreams, all!

Aug 29, 2004 - 10:30 pm 116. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I’ve been watching Fox and they have folks on who attack the Swifties.

Geraldo, who I normally like, says it should go away. To Geraldo, I say: While you were a leftist lawyer in NYC, we were defending your rights. So shut the hell up.

Swifties are Vietnam Vets – combat vets. Anyone who says their attack is low or wrong or whatever is getting inside a fight they have no standing in. John O’Neill said that McCain wasn’t in his unit, and that’s how they look at it.

The next level involves a lot more of us. Kerry’s actions during his anti-war period included an organization which offered to get letters to/from POWs if the families would denounce the war. Given the connections it takes to do that, somebody was obviously and blatantly committing treason. Kerry’s propaganda was vile, smeared all of us, and left people with wrong impressions about vets. His organization engaged in treason.

There’s lots of information to come out.

However, we already know that the Swifties are being investigated and their witnesses intimidated. The left will stop at nothing. There are private investigators crawling all of the Swifties, looking for anything embarassing.

What do you say about a presidential campaign which engages in those tactics?

If Kerry is defeated, we will have to plan a big parade that none of us saw before.

Aug 29, 2004 - 10:35 pm 117. Goof®:

Rick Ballard

I’m here (reading everything)…and smiling.

Just barely 65 days to go.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:28 pm 118. Sandy P:

Vodkaboy posted this via Drudge:

THE BOOS THAT ROCKED THE VOTE: KERRY DAUGHTERS RECEIVE RUDE AWAKENING AT MTV AWARDS

Sun Aug 29 2004 23:36:31 ET

MTV, ROLLING STONE and the rock and roll establishment — past and present — have cast their vote, and their man is John Kerry.

So on Sunday night when John Kerry’s daughters were announced to speak at the annual MTV VIDEO MUSIC AWARDS, the MTV youth were expected to welcome his daughter’s as pop culture princesses.

Instead, in an era of the unexpected, the daughters of the Democratic candidate were met with a resounding wall of boos at the filming in Miami.

From the moment Alexandra and Vanessa started speaking, the boos outweighed anything close to cheers, and the reaction turned worse when the daughters asked the VIACOM youth to vote for their father. So shocked by the reaction, the taller of the two daughters tried to ’shhhhhh’ her peers to no avail.

Developing…

–

There’s postings going on at Stephen’s place re FLA.

They were booed in Miami. I guess I’ll actually have to watch it to see the audience make-up.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:41 pm 119. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

I don’t know why they were booed, but if it was their identity, then it was inappropriate. It’s one thing to attzck a candidate, quite another to attack the candidatte’s kid.

Aug 30, 2004 - 12:03 am 120. devildog:

Kerry’s daughters were apparently bood when they told the crowd to vote for their father. That seems fair game.

I read that the booing was edited out from the broadcast.

Here’s a non-Drudge link.

Aug 30, 2004 - 12:12 am 121. Grand Ayatollah Nathan:

… there is an actual fledgling democratic government in place in Iraq…

Really? Who voted for them?

Posted by: Swopa at August 29, 2004 01:19 PM

The UN aproved them, Swopy. That is all that matters isn’t it? The UN is after all, the world body of unelected freaks who you, and others of your ilk ultimately want to make all decisions for every country, including yours, is it not?

And don’t worry, the UN will be monitoring the 3rd world election practices of the USA this november. I wonder if they will be armed? You better not vote twice this time…..

Aug 30, 2004 - 3:24 am 122. Grand Ayatollah Nathan:

Man.

I hope when my sons grow up, they will be absolutely nothing like Swopa. That is to say : decent, honest, intelligent, and posessing a solid sense of integrity and character.

Posted by: bkw at August 29, 2004 02:27 PM

Send them to a good private school where they will not be brainwashed by loony left marxist treehugging vegans, and the subject is world history, not “why billy has two dads”

Aug 30, 2004 - 3:34 am 123. DennisThePeasant:

Let Me Translate For You…

The fact that just about every journalist that can wedge themselves in front of a TV camera is now telling us that they wish the SBVFT controversy would go away should tell you something. What is should tell you is that just about every journalist that can wedge themselves in front of a TV camera is getting ready to dive into this story. What they are doing is throat-clearing. They do it anytime they have a story in front of them that is genuinely controversial and will not go away. I expect the MSM to start getting to the SBVFT controversy in a big way…if for no other reason than they are starting to be convinced Kerry is going down and they want to do some ass-covering.

What has become very apparent over the past week is that the MSM has been unable to either control or contain this story. What has become even more apparent is that the interest in it is building rather than subsiding. As Brit Hume said yesterday, either the MSM starts covering it in a serious way, or it risks showing itself to being irrelevent.

Regarding Susan Estrich and the Legitimacy Thingee-

Whatever Estrich’s merits as a human being, her record of incompetence in politics is breathtaking. I don’t really think we need take her comments too seriously…she and the Kerry camp simply cannot figure out how to attack the SBVFT. It is clear that their polling is telling them that calling the SBVFT liars is not playing well with the public (irrespective of inconsistencies, people tend to listen respectfully when 250 vets speak), and for whatever reason Kerry will not release the records that could actually clear this all up. So what appears to be going on is that Estrich is throwing up some trial balloons on TV to see if any might work.

Irrespective of whether the election is a landslide or a squeeker, don’t expect any enthusiasm from Congressional Democrats for any kind of impeachment movement. It will not play well with the electorate, and would certainly provide all kinds of ammunition to the RNC during the 2006 congressional elections. Other than a few moonbats like Kucinich and McDermott, you wouldn’t be able to get a Democrat to touch a bill of impeachment with a 10 foot pole.

Aug 30, 2004 - 4:45 am 124. Catherine:

John Moore

Kerry’s actions during his anti-war period included an organization which offered to get letters to/from POWs if the families would denounce the war

That should be high on the list of items to get out to the public next.

I’m still stunned he didn’t try to pre-empt this last winter.

Aug 30, 2004 - 5:24 am 125. Catherine:

penwil

He truly couldn’t have behaved less presidential. People have got to be wondering if this would be his modus operendi in dealing with the terrorists

Yes.

Or as Hillary would say, Okey Dokey artichokey.

Aug 30, 2004 - 5:29 am 126. Matt Evans:

Hmm, Swoopa, you must have missed several people who responded directly to you – apparently, you don’t bother to read the responses- I’ll summarize- there have been local and regional elections across the country (seems important to mention that there have been more elections in 1 year then there were in 20 years of sadaam) and the Iraqi government (in conjunction with the US and UN) is planning a country-wide democratic election. It seems important to mention the same thing is happening in Afghanistan – democracy- which seems to be an even more important step in protecting afghani woman than pouring more troops into the country.

We could compare democracy in Iraq now to the possibility of democracy under Sadaam Hussein but we realize that you and those who subscribe to your unique “philosophy” didn’t seem to find Hussein’s regime particularly objectionable in the first place.

Aug 30, 2004 - 5:31 am 127. Jamie Irons:

.. there is an actual fledgling democratic government in place in Iraq…

Really? Who voted for them?

Posted by: Swopa at August 29, 2004 01:19 PM

Swopy is playing dumb, right?

He’s pretending he doesn’t know the “actual fledgling democratic government in Iraq” was approved by his sacred, squeaky clean and entirely legitimate UN.

And of course he forgot, as his ilk always do, that the “democratically elected Saddam” got (what was it?) 99% of the vote is his last entirely legitimate, squeaky clean election.

Oh, wait. That one couldn’t have been legitimate, because, as I recall, it wasn’t monitored by the UN!

Damn! Good thing we removed Saddam from power.

We can’t be sure he was legitimately elected.

Yeah, that’s it! I knew there was a hidden logic at work here.

Jamie Irons

Aug 30, 2004 - 5:32 am 128. Rhod:

Mr. McEnroe:

UCLA grad? It’s worse than that, Jim.

Swopa:

How easy it is to wound your pride, and how easy for you to condemn the entire blogsite that offended you.

I suppose it’s consistent with your condemnation of the entire Iraqi government because it lacked a plebiscite.

The pea is under the bottom mattress.

Aug 30, 2004 - 5:38 am 129. Tom Grey:

Kerry’s dead meat, due to his lies. (#1)

#2 is the Leftist Press bias, the folk that have been enabling Kerry, and the whole Politically Correct junk morals.

And, maybe, #3 will be discussed. It’s not a war of ideas — it’s a Moral Superiority War.

http://tomgrey.motime.com/1093629194#330293

Kerry & PC folk look at the 1971 question of what the USA should do about Vietnam.

Stay or go. They think “go” was the morally superior position.

Fighting, for freedom and democracy and against evil commie genocide killers was the alternative.

It’s time to talk about the real costs & benefits of each alternative, but not as some Unreal Perfection.

Aug 30, 2004 - 6:10 am 130. Terrye:

Swopa:

Tell me can you think of one nation, one people, one anything that has been saved or in any way helped by the mouthy anti Americans? I mean other than Fidel Castro.

Aug 30, 2004 - 6:29 am 131. Knucklehead:

Wow, it really is easy to fall behind. I haven’t been able to keep up with SBVT developments or anything new regarding The Loon’s Heavy Medals.

Just some typically knuckleheaded observations…

Over the past week I’ve spent roughly 10 hours on heavily traveled roads. The latest report on Knucklehead’s Informal Bumper Sticker Polling is that bumper stickers are clearly out of fashion. By far the single most popular bumper sticker was the the “Yellow Ribbon” one with “Support out Troops”. No contest. I didn’t keep a count but I’m pretty sure I saw more of those than all other stickers combined, including AAA and flags.

In those 10 hours of driving, with a second set of eyeball enlisted (but her heart wasn’t in it ;>), I noticed precisely two Kerry-Edwards and one Bush-Cheney. One hi-dollar vehicle, a big Merc, don’t recall the model (sorry DtP) had been transformed into a rolling BDS billboard. One half-pint SUV had a “clever” Lick Bush and Dick in 2004 sticker.

But bumper stickers are so badly out of fashion that I’m shutting down the poll because it doesn’t seem to test for anything.

Regarding the effects of the protesters in NYC…

Early returns from Knucklehead’s Informal Eavesdropping Poll suggests 100% strong feelings of disgust, and even anger, toward the protesters. The commentary I overhear doesn’t surprise me as far as being against the protesters, but the vehemence of it suprises me. If the NYC cops decided to get nasty and pound the living crap out of the Moonbats I think they’d get a Standing O from the masses.

Aug 30, 2004 - 7:09 am 132. DennisThePeasant:

Swopa-

You come here and create a snark using an isolated factoid and then wonder why you get called a moron.

Calling a moron a moron is not a personal attack. It is an observation.

Aug 30, 2004 - 7:34 am 133. Sandy P:

Well, it seems Jenna and Barbara were on the screen while the Kerry girls were on, so it was hard to know who they were booing – a poster at Vodkapundit had free tx.

Aug 30, 2004 - 7:48 am 134. Catherine:

Catherine with a “C”,

Ah, let’s just call me CatherineAZ (I live in a state with swifting demographics..er…the border seems indistinct these days…but we’re probably in the win column for Bush).

My son, the Marine, is due in Iraq any day. That’s all I know for now. Very proud, I am.

I sent sun screen and “Unfit for Command”. He and his studly pals are all very amused by “The Poodle”. (that’s what Boortz calls him, which sounds about right).

“Don’t worry, Mom…we all know how to vote”

What’s the math on the military vote? Anyone?

Aug 30, 2004 - 9:08 am 135. Catherine:

TimJUtah

I don’t think what the margin of victory (in a Bush win) means one whit to the “party”.

Hmm. I don’t think I’m quite following. (Tired today . . . )

I’ve had the same impression you do, that the Clintonistas aren’t defending Kerry.

OTOH, apparently Hillary was pretty intense on the subject of smear campaigns on ABC This Week yesterday, and of course Susan Estrich is talking about legitimacy, etc . . .

I don’t understand the specific power & influence structure of the two parties well, so I have to say I have no idea who, if anyone, is really running the Democratic Party right now.

For instance (and there are others here who will know this) where is George Soros vis a vis the Clintons?

Where is moveon vis a vis the DLC?

Do the John Kerry 527s automatically switch over to the Clintons when/if he loses?

etc.

So when I say Kerry losing will be good for the “Democratic Party” I’m thinking more the rank & file. I remember Dowd having a wonderful line about Clinton jamming all the Jesse Jacksons & “No CARB” street protestors inside a box and sitting on it (that wasn’t the line) and that’s what I’m thinking about.

My sense is that if Kerry loses decisively, the perennial argument inside the Democratic Party over whether to move left or move right will also be won decisively, for the time being at least, by the move-righters.

Aug 30, 2004 - 10:25 am 136. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

JMO, but I think the 527s are party organs and stay with the party regardless of who wins or loses. MoveOn will move on. They started with the premise of fighting the Clinton impeachement stuff, then switched to BDS and they’ll move on to whatever the party needs.

Whether or not the Big Money keeps pouring into them is another matter. I don’t believe for one moment that Soros funds this stuff out of any reason other than placing his financial bets on the how he makes his next few billion dollars. A while back I linked to a financial analyst who was telling folks to jump on the “Soros Big Bet” bandwagon which was, essentially, speculating that the USD and economy would decline and that the euro and European (particularly the former east-bloc) economy would advance. Soros is in this for a weak US and a strong Europe.

Buffet doesn’t give a flying hoot about estate-taxes and meritocracy for any “altruistic” reasons. He wants the estate tax in place because he sells insurance to offset estate taxes.

The Big Money is out to make Bigger Money. I’ll never believe for one moment that Big Money is partisan for any reason other than making more money.

Aug 30, 2004 - 10:43 am 137. Catherine:

Catherine AZ

Oh wow.

How are you doing?

I have a 10-year old who I’ve turned into a raving patriot, and a big part of me is thinking: WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING?

Of course, my sense is that our guys are so well-trained & competent that our casualties are extremely low, relatively speaking.

Still, I’m thinking this must be a stressful time for you.

Hang in there.

As to the military vote, gosh. I’m sure I had polling data on that.

It’s swinging widely over to Bush.

…

Heck, I can’t find the data I saw. Gallup has a new poll out today saying no effect whatsoever from Swift Boat ads, but no one seems to believe that, including me.

Aug 30, 2004 - 10:48 am 138. TmjUtah:

Catherine -

Who is a nominal successor to Tony MacAullife for chairmanship of the DNC, in your opinion?

Please name which serving or emeritus Dem politicians that have enough national stature to lead the Democrat ‘base’…and possess any believable credentials for working across party lines?

I don’t have answers for either question, and I’m beginning to think the answers are critical in understanding the contemporary political landscape. The party hasn’t been led for the last decade and change. It’s been exploited.

It’s a herd of cats…and the leadership has consisted of staying in front with the promise of tuna to come.

Aug 30, 2004 - 10:49 am 139. Sandy P:

Catherine – I thought the 2000 election was 60/40 army vote, maybe Samuel has more insight.

Now, w/Cabana Boy dredging up the spectre of Nam and how he treated the vets and how he will treat our current armed forces….

I expect a lot of lawyers challenging a lot of ballots.

However, make sure your son and his band of brothers doesn’t dawdle in filling out his ballot and make sure they dot every ‘i” and cross every “t.”.

Rumor was there were votes left on the ships that were never mailed.

Aug 30, 2004 - 10:54 am 140. Catherine:

Catherine,

Thank you, I’m just fine. Just like lots of other Moms in the same situation.

Sort of being facetious about the data on military votes…I already know that one!

TmjUtah,

Herd of cats! Ha! Love it!

I like your question of who will lead the Democrats, going forward. The DNC currently sports a gaping hole ripped wide open by the catfight between the Clintonistas and everyone else. It’s distasteful to consider peering into that abyss, but I’ll be interested to read what others think of this question.

Aug 30, 2004 - 11:01 am 141. Jamie Irons:

Catherine with a “C” (but non-AZ):

If I am not being too impertinent in asking, what sort of writing do you do? Where can I find your work?

A ten-year-old raving patriot; sounds dangerous!

Thanks,

Jamie Irons

Aug 30, 2004 - 12:11 pm 142. Rhod:

Military Parents:

For some odd reason, my wife and I produced two paratroopers and a combat MP (interpreter), who served in Afghanistan and Guantanamo.

All of them were “college material”, which is to say, the euphemism that evolved from the progressive education nonsense of the twentieth century to distinguish us certain other people, applies to them.

I served in Vietnam, but that was early in the war (66 and 67) and we raised the kids moderately conservative, with no emphasis on military service.

Both college educated, we’re one of several parents in a precious Connecticut town who have kids gone off to serve. To many here, the culprit is either a Wendigo or a Stepford lab, but never patriotism, sacrifice or duty.

We’re ambivalent and sometimes frightened about all this. The times are changin’, and somebody has to step up. Thank all of you for your service, too.

Aug 30, 2004 - 12:31 pm 143. jerry:

Rhod:

I remember just after 9-11 listening to an NPR [female] commentator talk to her [university] students about how it right to think about service at “time like this.” So what kind of service did she think her students should perform during this time of need? She said that she told her students that they should think about working with “the poor”, in healthcare and other good works. Now, there is nothing wrong with this kind of service and many people have a gift for it. However, when your country is attacked then there is one form of service that takes precedence over all others…military service. This form of service was the last thing in her thoughts.

Aug 30, 2004 - 1:19 pm 144. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

CatherineAZ

My thanks to you for your son’s service. Tell him thanks for all of us If my daughter got such an idea, I’d tie here to a tree – pure selfishness.

I’m also in AZ – Paradise Valley and I’m a Vietnam Vet.

Aug 30, 2004 - 9:57 pm

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