41 Comments

1. Dan S:

They should proscute. Just as soon as they’re done prosecuting Sandy Berger for mishandling highly classified information. Senstive isn’t even classified.

This is a smear if it’s already dropped from “spying” to mishandling “sensitive” information.

Aug 29, 2004 - 5:39 am 2. David Thomson:

This is merely the first shot over the bow. The leftists are getting ready to really go after Israel if John Kerry gets into the White House. We invaded Iraq on behalf of Ariel Sharon and the Likud Party will be the increasingly uttered slander. They will insist that they arenít anti-Semitic. Whatever, in the final analysis—Israel will be relentlessly criticized for supposedly possessing too much power over American foreign policy.

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:20 am 3. David Thomson:

A few minutes after posting my previous viewpoint, I decided to visit Daniel Dreznerís blog. These comments particularly caught my attention:

ìHappily, the neo-cons are destroying themselves. How long are you hard core supporters going to tolerate the Likud Party determining our foreign policy? What’s a spy or two among friends, eh? See Juan Cole’s latest post, if you dare.

posted by: r.t. on 08.28.04 at 07:40 PM [permalink]î

Yup, we are only seeing the beginning of the radical Leftís attacks on Israel. They are just waiting for John Kerry to get into the White House.

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:34 am 4. Mike_Nargizian:

David a link to that post please?

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:43 am 5. George Purcell:

(Crossposted with Allahpundit.)

An Exercise in Damage Control

Budding politicos take note of the masterful way this Steven Franklin mess has been handled by BushCo.

1) They knew that the FBI probe of this guy was going to come out at some time during the campaign.

2) While not good, the guy is pretty low level.

3) The challenge is to get the information out without burning anyone important and to downplay the incident.

First, they get it out on a Friday night. This is bush league politics (pardon the pun). But they also get it out before the RNC AND the wrap up of the Olympics. The anti-Bush stories that will come out over the next few days will focus on protestors during the RNC and “Europeans hate us” tales during the Olympics, both of which are MUCH more tv/radio friendly than this.

Second, they fed it to CBS and Dan Rather, known to be hostile to the Republicans, and planted enough suggestions that it might JUST BE a HUGE story. CBS, unable to contain itself, takes the bait hook, line, sinker. Expectations have been set ridiculously high. Maybe The Jews were responsible for the US going into Iraq!

Third, they have their talking points for discrediting the story set out perfectly. The guy is several layers removed from policy makers. He wasn’t really in a position to effect policy. etc.

So, BushCo has:

A) Limited the damage that could have been done to the Administration from this real security breech. Just one rouge desk officer, not a cabal of unloyal Jews!

With bonus points for:

B) Leaking the story in a way that AIPAC is pissed off at THE LIBERAL MEDIA for smearing them! A nice little knife thrust into a core Democratic constituency

C) Calling the professionalism of CBS news into question

Luckily for the Kerry campaign, they wisely decided to wait before issuing a statement and avoided the trap.

Aug 29, 2004 - 7:59 am 6. Charlie (Colorado):

one rouge desk officer

I thought we weren’t calling the bad guys “reds” any more.

Anyway, Roger, remember: nations don’t have friends, only interests. This wasn’t the first time the Israelis were caught spying on the US and I’ll bet it won’t be the last.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:09 am 7. David Thomson:

ìDavid a link to that post please?î

Here it is the link:

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/001602.html#026366

I am convinced that this poster speaks for most of the Howard Dean folks supporting John Kerry. They are keeping a low profile until after the election. These radicals are shrewd enough to know that they must remain in the background.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:21 am 8. Tom Holsinger:

This looks a lot more like the CIA and FBI doing a pre-emptive attack against intelligence reorganization. Note how Michael Ledeen’s name appears in this story:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040824-102938-1916r.htm

The CIA hates Ledeen – blames him for Chalabi, for the sun rising in the east, etc.

And they are going after Feith too.

I have said loudly and frequently on Daniel Drezner’s blog that the Bush adminstration has a major problem with recalcitrant groups in the national security establishment – notably in the CIA and Foreign Service. Now the FBI has joined in.

Amy Zegart described a bureaucratic model for such behavior in her _Flawed by Design – Evolution of the JCS, CIA and NSC_, which is unintentionally confirmed (at times comically) in Laurie Mylorie’s _Bush vs. the Beltway_.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:55 am 9. Clio:

Tom H.,

I appreciate your thoughts re. the source of this latest investigation. But I am inclined to see the hand of senior military brass in this one (though I can’t explain the connection to the FBI immediately).

Think about it: no civilian leaders have ever been more reviled by uniformed offiers than are Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Feith. In the wake of last week’s two extremely critical reviews of Abu Ghraib, this looks to be a follow up punch (with a dash of payback for Gen. Sanchez’s acting as lone fallguy?). With days to go before the convention, what better way to increase pressure on Bush to oust the despised trio?

I don’t know if it makes anyone on this list feel any better to think that the true target here is probably Rummy, and that any harm to the careers of Jewish Americans or Israel’s reputation may be little more than collateral damage. But that would be my guess.

Aug 29, 2004 - 10:19 am 10. Clio:

One more thought: while I have long admired Rumsfeld for his attempts to overcome the sclerosis of the Pentagon and Wolfowitz for his intellectual courage (Feith is another story–I’ve never heard a single person in the know praise him for anything), I now think it’s time for a big threeway retirement party. Even if there is merit to their ideas (Rummy’s and Wolfowitz’s that is) they have been so hamfisted and graceless in their execution that they are now liabilities to the causes they once championed.

And that may just explain what induced the FBI to play along here–a weakened Rumsfeld will not be able to defend the DIA’s turf against “reformers” in the White House and Congress. If he gets purged now, his replacement could better resist the forces of centralization.

Aug 29, 2004 - 10:27 am 11. Raincoast:

A few interesting links:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.marshallrozen.html

http://www.warandpiece.com/

This is Laura Rozen’s blog. It’s exceeded it’s public bandwidth, not surprisingly, so I’ll post a few interesting points:

1) The secret meetings between Pentagon officials and associates of Ghorbanifar in Europe went on for almost two years, a full year longer than the Bush administration has acknowledged. Ghorbanifar told me of three meetings. While the Pentagon originally told the Post last year that Harold Rhode, an official in Feith’s office, had simply run into Ghorbanifar in Paris in June 2003, Ghorbanifar tells me that the two spent weeks planning the meeting.

2) The Italian military intelligence organization SISMI provided logistics and security at the first meeting, in Rome, in December 2001. And the head of Sismi, Nicollo Pollari, as well as the Italian Defense Minister, Antonio Martino, attended the meeting, along with Michael Ledeen, Ghorbanifar, Pentagon officials Harold Rhode and Larry Franklin. [Sismi has been in the news recently for having been reported to have used an Italian middle man to the put the forged Niger docs into circulation.]

3) Ghorbanifar told me he has had fifty meetings with Michael Ledeen since September 11th, and that he has given Ledeen “4,000 to 5,000 pages of sensitive documents” concerning Iran, Iraq and the Middle East, “material no one else has received.” Ghorbanifar, speaking with me by telephone from France, says those meetings took place abroad because he has been refused a US visa the last two times he has applied.

4) Ghorbanifar has also been meeting with an assortment of other American officials, which I will write about later.

Aug 29, 2004 - 10:54 am 12. Raincoast:

“This is merely the first shot over the bow. The leftists are getting ready to really go after Israel if John Kerry gets into the White House. We invaded Iraq on behalf of Ariel Sharon and the Likud Party will be the increasingly uttered slander. They will insist that they aren’t anti-Semitic. Whatever, in the final analysis—Israel will be relentlessly criticized for supposedly possessing too much power over American foreign policy.”

“The leftists” could play this game, too. A far greater percentage of American Jewry opposed the war than the population as a whole, perhaps a majority. Jews were very conspicuously represented in the peace movement, especially in leadership positions. More that 75% of American Jews did not vote for Bush. Jews have been very heavily represented in anti-war academia and journalism. So why not just say it’s “anti-Semitic” to condemn the anti-war movement as unpatriotic and contrary to national interests; people trying to demonize the peace movement are really just out to get “the Jews” just like they were during the Cold War; and let’s assume that pro-war Americans must really be out to blame “the Jews” for what they think undermines national security. Heck, we could probably interchange “the Jews” with “the African-Americans” and it would also work.

Thankfully “the leftists” have the dignity not to sink to this.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:04 am 13. richard mcenroe:

Raincoast ó Verily, you are joking, yes? After the antisemitic bile spewed at every “peace” rally? As a staple of the DU? Or do you wish to tell me I am not hearing the cries of “Fuck the Jews” at our weekly demonstration?

Clio ó McNamara was broadly reviled by the uniformed military under him during his tenure as SecDef.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:10 am 14. asher:

I’m going to wait until more is known about this “spy” business before commenting on it directly. But since the majority of American Jews vote Democratic, this might be an outstanding “teachable moment” to expose the anti-Semitism rampant on the hard Left – the same hard Left that his taking over the DP.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:16 am 15. David Thomson:

ìíThe leftistsí could play this game, too. A far greater percentage of American Jewry opposed the war than the population as a whole, perhaps a majority.î

Thatís why I hesitated referring to the self hating Jew rhetoric. Letís dodge that debate for a moment. It still boils down to this: Israel is perceived by the radical Left as victimizing the Palestinians. The latter are merely reacting to a reactionary and apartheid nation which stole the land from them. The present Israeli government is allegedly a tyrannical entity hindering peace in the Mid East. Moreover, these folks argue Israel is the primary reason for Islamic nihilism and our invasion of Iraq.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:20 am 16. Raincoast:

Richard, I’ve attended a large numbers of peace rallies and have never once heard anyone say “f@#* the Jews,” even at ones were there were a few people who had some pretty murderous sentiment to level at “the rich”, “capitalists” and “drivers”. I’ve heard “f@#*” a lot of things but never that. Perhaps I just attend too many peace rallies and meetings organized and peopled by Jews, Unitarians and Methodists.

Which weekly demonstration are you talking about?

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:23 am 17. Raincoast:

Dave Thomson wrote: “That’s why I hesitated referring to the self hating Jew rhetoric. Let’s dodge that debate for a moment. It still boils down to this: Israel is perceived by the radical Left as victimizing the Palestinians.”

It does. And Palestinians victimize Israelis.

“The latter are merely reacting to a reactionary and apartheid nation which stole the land from them.”

They are, and they’re reacting to a lot of other things, some legitimate concerns, some not.

“The present Israeli government is allegedly a tyrannical entity hindering peace in the Mid East.”

“Tyrannical” is subject and usually means a government one doesn’t like, and is not a helpful term to use to criticize Israel. However, the present government is hindering peace, along with a lot of other things.

“Moreover, these folks argue Israel is the primary reason for Islamic nihilism and our invasion of Iraq.”

A few are, but most are arguing it is one of many causes.

There is certainly a perception about that any and all criticism of Israel stems from an attempt to deny its existence. The trouble is that in a few cases this is true; but in most it is not, and Israel’s actions in the occupied territories, are a serious problem. Not a “genocide”, but some very unfortunate parallels to what many people consider apartheid, and something that America will have to overcome if it is to develop the legitimacy we need to overcome Islamist militancy.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:36 am 18. David Thomson:

ìNot a “genocide”, but some very unfortunate parallels to what many people consider apartheid…î

Really? Which people believe consider Israel to be an apartheid nation? What are these ìunfortunate parallels?î One should never allow somebody to simply claim they are merely against the Sharon government. Such comments require a couple of follow up questions. Am I saying that one cannot have valid complaints concerning Ariel Sharon? Of course not. Still, many people, including a high number of Jews, attack Sharon and the Likud—when they actually feel hostile towards the very existence of Israel.

Aug 29, 2004 - 11:52 am 19. David Thomson:

“Which people believe consider Israel to be an apartheid nation? ”

Should read:

Which people consider Israel to be an apartheid nation?

Aug 29, 2004 - 12:10 pm 20. Jack Okie:

Raincoast -

Your comments and others like them ignore the complete history of the conflict. It’s as if you came in in the middle of the movie. Are you unaware that it was the Arabs who attacked after the UN declaration creating Israel? The Grand Mufti urging the Palestenians to leave? The repeated aggression from the Arab states in ‘56 and ‘67? Black September when Arafat and the PLO, having achieved sanctuary in Jordan, moved against King Hussein? The PLO’s later devastating presence in Lebanon? And on, and on. It truly does seem that the only good Jews are victims. When they defend themselves they are an “apartheid regime” and “hindering peace”.

It takes the sincere efforts of both parties to settle a dispute. To ignore the Palestinian contribution to the conflict approaches being willfully obtuse.

Aug 29, 2004 - 12:16 pm 21. M. Simon:

I’m listening to Dylan’s “Idiot Wind”.

I think it ought to be Kerry’s theme song.

Pass it on.

–==–

Steal this sig:

There is a big difference between William Calley and John Kerry. William Calley is a proven war criminal. For John Kerry we only have his word as an officer and a gentleman.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

The Ads: Video links

Aug 29, 2004 - 12:32 pm 22. M. Simon:

George Purcell,

For the most part I like your analysis.

A few minor quibbles (this big a brouhaha over Confidential classified papers? Is this a joke?)

What you didn’t get is that even if it did not discredit Kerry it discredited his biggest ally MSM. Greasing their fall. And reducing the help they can provide Kerry. Not that he needs a lot to destroy himself. He is doing a pretty good job even discounting their help.

–==–

Steal this sig:

There is a big difference between William Calley and John Kerry. William Calley is a proven war criminal. For John Kerry we only have his word as an officer and a gentleman.

What is the War Hero Afraid of?

Form 180. Release ALL the records.

The Ads: Video links

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:01 pm 23. cubanbob:

Setting aside the who was here first between the Arabs and Israeli’s, can someone explain to me in a logical fashion why Israeli’s are land usurpers but Australians,Americans,Canadians,Brazilians,Chinese,

New Zelanders,Russians among others are not?

If it is right and proper for the Israeli’s to get out of the “occupied” territories should not those advocating said position be morally consistent and practice what they preach by leaving the above mentioned occupied lands and return to their ancestral homelands?

I would truly love to see a logical, rational explanation of why the Jews are wrong and the above mentioned are right. An explanation that is not just saying well the natives were largely killed off and or reduced to insignificant numbers by our ancestors and there is nothing we can do about it today.

As for lefty plots against the Jews, remember Stalin’s doctors plot? The one just before he died to start the the elimination of the Jews in the USSR? It would rather interesting to see who leaked and what was really leaked. Makes me wonder just what and who’s moles are in the government.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:02 pm 24. cubanbob:

Raincoast,

please explain to me from a lefty point of view why it is not kosher for Jews to “occupying” parts of Judea but it is OK for Arabs doing the same? If it is not wrong for Arabs to use force to expell or highly encourage Jews to leave Arab conqured lands why is it wrong for Jews to encourage Arabs to leave Judea and return to where they come from – Arabia?

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:46 pm 25. Charlie (Colorado):

A few minor quibbles (this big a brouhaha over Confidential classified papers? Is this a joke?)

Good God. All this, and the papers are only classified (C)?

Okay, that settles it: this is someone trying to mess with Bush; while the definition of TOP SECRET is “release could cause massive damage to national security”, the definition of CONFIDENTIAL is “mildly annoying”.

The guy should probably lose his job; as a “natinal security” story, though, it is a joke.

Aug 29, 2004 - 1:49 pm 26. Raincoast:

charlie wrote: “Okay, that settles it: this is someone trying to mess with Bush; while the definition of TOP SECRET is “release could cause massive damage to national security”, the definition of CONFIDENTIAL is “mildly annoying”.”

I’ve seen news reports say it was “confidential”, “secret”, and “top secret”. We don’t definitively know yet. Those wishing to dismiss this as merely “confidential” make me wonder — even if it is only “confidential”, what do they value about our IC community? In terms of the seriousness of the law, it’s like saying someone only committed manslaughter, not 1st degree murder.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:38 pm 27. Raincoast:

Cubanbob wrote: “please explain to me from a lefty point of view why it is not kosher for Jews to “occupying” parts of Judea but it is OK for Arabs doing the same? If it is not wrong for Arabs to use force to expell or highly encourage Jews to leave Arab conqured lands why is it wrong for Jews to encourage Arabs to leave Judea and return to where they come from – Arabia?”

I think it is wrong for both Jews and Arabs to leave lands on which they have lived for generations. The loss of enormously rich Jewish communities all over the Middle East is a tragic story largely forgotten and ignored in the wake of the European Holocaust. It does not justify denying Palestinians the right to live on lands their families have lived on for centuries.

“Arab” refers to a people defined by common language and not a particular place, btw.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:43 pm 28. Raincoast:

Cubanbob wrote: “Setting aside the who was here first between the Arabs and Israeli’s, can someone explain to me in a logical fashion why Israeli’s are land usurpers but Australians,Americans,Canadians,Brazilians,Chinese,New Zelanders,Russians among others are not?”

I think that all of the above are land usurpers. The difference is that all of the above have given rights of citizenship and the franchise to the people living on the land they have usurped. Israel, to it’s great credit, has done this within Israel proper, but the occupied territories are a different story. If it plans to hold sovereignty over the occupied territories but give only Jews who live their citizenship and the franchise it will have territories where a form of de facto apartheid exists, rather like America, Canada, and Australia did until they gave aboriginal peoples such rights.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:49 pm 29. Raincoast:

Jack Okie wrote: “Your comments and others like them ignore the complete history of the conflict. It’s as if you came in in the middle of the movie. Are you unaware that it was the Arabs who attacked after the UN declaration creating Israel? The Grand Mufti urging the Palestenians to leave? The repeated aggression from the Arab states in ‘56 and ‘67? Black September when Arafat and the PLO, having achieved sanctuary in Jordan, moved against King Hussein? The PLO’s later devastating presence in Lebanon? And on, and on. It truly does seem that the only good Jews are victims. When they defend themselves they are an “apartheid regime” and “hindering peace”.”

Yes, I am aware of the things you wrote (funny how the U.N. mandate holds such weight and subsequent resolutions do not). Israel, as a result of a series of wars for which I fault both sides, conquered a lot of land; these lands had a lot of people living on them, almost all of whom were born and have ancestral ties somewhere between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea. So what is Israel to do if it is to be a Jewish democracy? It will either have to let these lands go or enfranchise all its new subjects or return them to Jordan and Egypt. Otherwise it will have a state in which two classes of people, citizens and subjects, live.

“It takes the sincere efforts of both parties to settle a dispute. To ignore the Palestinian contribution to the conflict approaches being willfully obtuse.”

On this I must agree.

Aug 29, 2004 - 2:55 pm 30. Raincoast:

Dave Thomson wrote: “Really? Which people believe consider Israel to be an apartheid nation? What are these “unfortunate parallels?” One should never allow somebody to simply claim they are merely against the Sharon government. Such comments require a couple of follow up questions. Am I saying that one cannot have valid complaints concerning Ariel Sharon? Of course not. Still, many people, including a high number of Jews, attack Sharon and the Likud—when they actually feel hostile towards the very existence of Israel.”

What are the parellels? I really need to write an essay called “Israel and how it relates to apartheid” that I can cut and paste everytime someone seems to take personal offense that this word is used in connection with Israel. Let me say that I am referring to the occupied territories, particularly the West Bank, and not Israel proper when I cite parallels. If you cannot see racial segregation at work there, there is not much point in discussion parallels. If you can, well, then the parallels, not always exact but often uncannily similar, start coming to light — not the least of which is that although South Africa did not commit nearly the atrocities that some of its neighbors did, it nevertheless became the target of an anti-imperialist … (what’s a better word for “crusade”?).

Goodness it’s hard to explain in one paragraph how the “settlements” will screw, demonize, and completely destroy Israel as a Jewish democracy.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:05 pm 31. Roberts:

Raincoast, your comments about the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are so far from the reality that I have difficulty believing that they come from rational thought.

You pretend that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is an event isolated from all other events / history / and current reality. You pretend that the only significance is that there is an occupation and, for some reason you don’t bother to even consider, the Israelis just happen to not have “given” the residents of those lands Israeli citizenship.

And you throw in that “almost apartheid” slap too.

First of all, there has never been a real, final, internationally recognized border for Israel in those regions. Until Egypt reached a peace agreement with Israel in the Camp David accords, all of the borders were armistice lines with nations that still reserved the right to resume hostilities and again try to conquer Israel. In light of that, Israel has no reason to accede to your smug comments about its occupation at all. And other than Egypt, and Jordan, all of Israel’s neighbors including the Palestinian Authority still are in a state of war with Israel.

Given the circumstances, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has historically been amongst the most benevolent known.

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:13 pm 32. Raincoast:

Roberts, if what you say were true, why doesn’t Israel define what its borders should be? And what possible good could the “settlements” do? What are or should be Israel’s goals for the 3.5 million people living in territories it has conqured?

Aug 29, 2004 - 3:23 pm 33. Charlie (Colorado):

Roberts, if what you say were true, why doesn’t Israel define what its borders should be?

So you’re in favor of the Israeli plan to build a wall between its territory and the PA’s?

Aug 29, 2004 - 4:44 pm 34. Roberts:

Once again, Raincoast, you demonstrate that you don’t understand the issues you so boldly proclaim upon. If Israel formally proclaimed its borders, it would just be condemned again for doing so. Practically speaking, however, that is what the fence is. A practical statement of its borders that Israel must make in the absence of any coherent government in the West Bank and Gaza.

Aug 29, 2004 - 6:29 pm 35. holdfast:

Raincoast:

Sign I saw today in Union Sqaure

NO WAR FOR PROFIT

(Bomb Israel)

If more American Jews saw these signs there’d be a lot fewer Jewish votes for Kerry – Ttank the MSM for covering it up.

“The loss of enormously rich Jewish communities all over the Middle East is a tragic story largely forgotten and ignored in the wake of the European Holocaust. It does not justify denying Palestinians the right to live on lands their families have lived on for centuries. ”

-Well, they’re not going back to Iraq, Yemen, Libya etc – they sucked it up and built new lives in Israel. Did the Israeli gov’t keep them in camps while they waited for a return to they’re ancestral lands? No – so why didn’t the Arab states resettle the Palestinians in Egypt, Jordan, Lebannon, Syria etc (the camps in the OT are, admittedly, more complex and justifiable)? Why is that the Jews have to “move on” and make the best of the situation, but the entire Arab world is willing to go to war with Israel but won’t (with the exception of Jordan) make these people into citizens? Why do the Palestinians have their very own UN agency, if the purpose? The purpose is to maintain them as pawns, as irritants, as a weapon to use against Israel. Why are there more resolutions against Israel than Sudan, Zimbabwe, Syria, Iran, North Korea and Cuba – is Israel really worse than all those regimes combined? No – then why place ANY value on those resolutions.

Furthermore, all of you BS ignores the historic settlement offer at Camp David – and Arafat’s reponse (Intafada II) – if the deal wasn’t good enough, he ought to have made a counter-offer. That’s what a serious negotiator would do. Israel is, rightly, not going to give the Palestinians jack-sh*t until they replace Arafat. He proved that he’d rather be a terrorist than a president, and that’s really all she wrote. Sharon will give them Gaza, and they’ll turn it into even more of a hellhole than it already is. Eventually they’ll probably get a good chunk of the West Bank, which will also become a sh*tpit, depite all the EU $$ that will be poured in. And who will they blame – the Jews. As long as there is one Jew in Israel, the entire Arab world will blame him for the fact that their so-called governments couldn’t organize a circle jerk at a masturbators anonymous conference. Once all the Jews are gone, they’ll blame the Americans, and then someone else. Jordan and Kuwait are probably the best of the lot, and they still suck compared to states with similar potential in east asia.

Why does everyone care so much about the Palestinians – what makes them so much more worthy than the Kurds, the blacks of the South Sudan, the Tamils, the Urghurs, the Tibetans, the N’debele, and probably half a dozen more I can’t remember – the ONLY thing that I can think of is that the Palestinians’ “oppressors” are white (well, not really) Jews. What else makes them so special, besides perhaps the psychotic viciousness with which they conduct their campaign?

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:20 pm 36. holdfast:

Raincoast – Israel DID proclaim its border with Lebannon – actually they went to the UN to make sure it was correct – yet they are still attacked by Zezb’Allah, acting with the connivance of the “government” of Lebannon, which claims that the Sheeba farms is an occupied part of Lenannon. Does the UN stand up for Israel on this, since they detirmined what the border was – hell no.

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:23 pm 37. holdfast:

Sorry – Hezb’Allah

Aug 29, 2004 - 8:24 pm 38. Raincoast:

Charlie and Roberts, I’d be in favor of Israel building such a wall along its 1967 borders. I should of course specify that by defining its borders, that’s what I meant. If you are advocating that Israel either ethnically cleanse part of the West Bank or set up a society with two classes of people in which one basically lives in a concentration camp (what any objective person would call apartheid) with no right of citizenship but under the sovereignty of Israel then you can be sure it will be in a state of war for a long time to come and you can forget about my ever supporting Israel.

Holdfast, do you realize how remarkably Islamist your opinion sounds? Just replace group X with group Y. Palestinians were living in the area between the Jordan and Mediterrainian for centuries and do not deserve to be shoved off just because Jews in Iraq (greatly “encouraged” by Zionists in Israel) left / felt threatened / were shoved out. As you know, right now in Greater Israel there are about 5 million Jews, 1.2 million Arab Israelis, and about 3.5 Arabs who consider themselves Palestinians in occupied territories. Forcibly sending the latter to other nations, were that even feasible, would be *just* as unjust. If the 2.5 million in the West Bank are given only about half the WB, long-lasting trouble would be a logical consequence. All of these 9.5+ million people have a right to this land and all of these people’s lives and rights are important. My apologies if I don’t pay much deference to ethnic chauvinism.

I suppose your next argument will be the Serbian nationalist one that “those Muslims have too many babies.”

Aug 30, 2004 - 7:04 am 39. Mike_Nargizian:

Raincoat, bro keep touting that soaking wet propaganda, no pun intended.

You really think I’d let this bull **** fly?

If you are advocating that Israel either ethnically cleanse part of the West Bank or set up a society with two classes of people in which one basically lives in a concentration camp (what any objective person would call apartheid) with no right of citizenship but under the sovereignty of Israel then you can be sure it will be in a state of war for a long time to come and you can forget about my ever supporting Israel.

A) It will “be a war for a long time to come” and anyone Arab or not that lives in Israel and enjoys their citizenship, many of whom I know, realize this. The only ones that don’t are delusional “leftists” who march to peace.

B) You mean the way the Palestinians want to ethnically cleanse Jews from Hebron? where they’ve lived for 3000 years? or from the rest of Israel?

C) Or do you mean the way they’ve quietly cleansed Christians from the West Bank in the last 10 years? or Xtians from the Middle East altogether in the last 30 years?

D) I guess the “Zionists” “quietly encouraged the Xtian Arabs to leave too? LOL!!!

Wait let me finish shoveling out from under your bull **** before finishing…… ok 1 sec..

Palestinians were living in the area between the Jordan and Mediterrainian for centuries and do not deserve to be shoved off just because Jews in Iraq (greatly “encouraged” by Zionists in Israel) left / felt threatened / were shoved out.

You have to excuse Raincoat he’s all wet listening to typical leftist dripping PROP maybe listening to Normy Finkelstein tapes.

Let’s get this straight -

Raincoast “infers” that the Zionists helped cause a WHOLE CIVILIZATION that predate Arabs in Babylonia to all line up and board planes for a land they’d never been to, speak a language they didn’t know and live among people of a different culture?

Boy life must have been fin grand for them in Dhimmiland? EH? BUT WE KNOW WHY THE MOSSAD ZIONISTS “encouraged them to leave” LOL!!

Not the Nazi 3rd Reich situation their lives had become in Iraq….0

I suppose your next argument will be the Serbian nationalist one that “those Muslims have too many babies.”

I could say that one who purposely has 10 babies with 3 different wives and keeps them chattled up for the purpose of Jihad and the future great Victory of Islam is even beyond Serbian or Nazi ideologies.

And one wonders if Raincoat’s town, like Lebanon, had 20,000 Muslims move in and quadruple in 15 years and the complete culture of his town become dominated, if he’d take this tack. Real easy for him to expound his “liberal” ideals living in his safe environment.

THE SHITS PILING UP AGAIN….

Mike

Aug 30, 2004 - 2:33 pm 40. Roberts:

How interesting it is, Raincoast, that Israel has been doing none of the things you accuse it of.

And your attempt to skate the edge of Godwin’s Law is unimpressive.

Aug 30, 2004 - 2:34 pm 41. Mike_Nargizian:

LONG POST BUT WORTH THE READ!!

Allegations of Israeli Spying Usually Disappear — Eventually

Reports that the FBI suspects a mid-level Pentagon employee specializing in Iranian affairs of conveying classified documents to the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC, and further that two of the lobby’s employees may have passed those documents to Israel, have led to a predictable storm of press coverage, much of it overheated. CBS, for example, led its Nightly News on Friday with its “scoop,” and ABC’s Nightline replaced its scheduled program with coverage of the spy story. For some unexplained reason the Nightline program included a segment on the USS Liberty incident and an interview with discredited Israel-basher and conspiracy theorist James Bamford.

Israeli officials and AIPAC have strongly denied any involvement in spying on America, and it is far too early to say whether anyone will be arrested or convicted of anything in this case, or whether any sensitive information was compromised. But there is no doubt that in its coverage of the affair the media has forgotten two fundamental facts:

? There have been entirely similar charges in the past of alleged spying for Israel which ended up being dropped for lack of evidence or merit.

? Countries don’t just spy on their enemies, they also spy on their friends. It is well known, for example, that Israel has spied on America at least once in the past, in the Jonathan Pollard affair, which Israel apologized for. Less well known, however, is the fact that the United States has also spied on Israel, even recruiting Israeli military officers and politicians.

Israel’s Alleged Spies

Supposed spies for Israel have included David Tenenbaum, an Orthodox Jew and engineer who worked at the U.S. Army Tank Automotive and Armaments Command in Warren Michigan. Tenenbaum was charged with passing sensitive information on the Patriot missile and advanced armor to Israel. (Detroit Free Press, Feb. 20, 1997) More than a year later the case was quietly dropped, with the FBI stating only that “The case is closed. No criminal charges have been filed.”

After the case was dropped, Tenenbaum got his job back, but he has filed a lawsuit against the government claiming that he was singled out for scrutiny and prosecution solely for his religious beliefs. (Detroit Free Press, Oct. 13, 2000)

Also suspected of spying for Israel was CIA employee Adam Ciralsky. According to an internal CIA memo, Ciralsky was guilty of “deliberately compromising U.S. government classified information to an Israeli national, accepting compensation from an Israeli national in exchange for U.S. government classified information, and deliberately concealing from the U.S. government a relationship with an Israeli national.” (Associated Press, Feb. 7, 2000)

Despite the seemingly serious charges against Ciralsky, he has to this date not been charged with any wrongdoing, and he has filed his own lawsuit against the U.S. government, charging that he was:

“unjustly singled out for investigation and subsequently interrogated, harassed, surveilled and terminated from employment with the CIA solely because he is a Jew and he practices the Jewish religion. Moreover, this ultra vires and constitutionally repugnant conduct was knowingly undertaken by defendants in conformance with a custom, policy and practice of both the CIA and FBI. Here, Mr. Ciralsky seeks damages to compensate for him for his injuries, and injunctive relief to prevent further harm to himself and other Jewish-Americans who work or seek to work in the federal government in so-called intelligence agencies. Indeed, damages and injunctive and other equitable relief are being sought pursuant to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 …”

In addition, because of the anti-Semitic language used in many of the CIA’s memos on Ciralsky (references to his “rich Jewish friends” and “wealthy daddy”) , the agency arranged to have the ADL provide sensitivity training to its internal investigators. (U.S. Newswire, Apr. 14, 1999, letter from CIA Director George Tenet to the ADL)

Perhaps the most serious instance of supposed spying by Israel against the United States involved a person code-named “Mega,” who may well not have existed. As reported by the Washington Post on May 7, 1997:

“The FBI has opened an investigation to determine whether a senior U.S. government official has been passing highly sensitive information to the Israeli government, according to sources with direct knowledge of the inquiry.

“The investigation was launched in January after the National Security Agency intercepted a secure communication between a senior Israeli intelligence officer in Washington and a superior in Tel Aviv that referred to someone code-named ‘Mega,’ and an attempt to obtain a sensitive American document, U.S. government officials said.”

Israeli officials strongly denied that they were spying against the United States, and also denied that they were familiar with anyone code-named “Mega.” As the officials explained, however, the Hebrew term for the CIA sounded something like “Mega,” perhaps explaining the confusion. In any event, no one was ever charged with being “Mega,” and it seems the investigation was, again, quietly dropped. Though, of course, not before Israel’s reputation was again dragged through the mud.

Despite the nonexistence of “Mega,” the Post story certainly did reveal spying – on Israel by the United States. For as the report indicated, the NSA monitored a secure communication between Israeli intelligence officials. Just monitoring the conversation, whether it was secure or not, is spying. But a secure communication would be encrypted, and because Israel is one of the world’s leaders in the science of cryptography, there is no chance that even the NSA’s supercomputers could have cracked the Israeli code. The only other possibility is a U.S. mole within Israeli intelligence who passed on to the U.S. the key to the Israeli code.

In other words, the “Mega” case proved beyond any doubt that the United States was spying on Israel. Nor was it an isolated incident – there have been previous cases of such spying by the U.S.

America’s Spies in Israel

Yosef Amit was an intelligence officer in the Israel Defense Forces, responsible for running agents in Arab countries, who eventually rose to command an intelligence base on the border with Lebanon. While there, Major Amit ran into difficulties with the law in 1978, and was discharged from the IDF. Eventually going to work as a private investigator, he was recruited into the CIA by Tom Waltz, a Jewish CIA officer based at the American embassy in Tel-Aviv.

The Americans were supposedly especially interested in information on Israeli troop movements and plans in Lebanon and the territories, which Amit provided. He also apparently passed to the Americans secret documents from Israel’s internal security service, the Shin Bet, which he got from a friend who worked there.

The Shin Bet eventually caught up with Amit in 1986, when he was secretly arrested for espionage. The trial was also secret, though it is known that Amit received a long prison sentence. (Ha’aretz, Dec. 12, 1997)

Another U.S. spy was the Israeli politician Andrzej Kielczynski, a friend of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and also a member of the Likud Central Committee. Kielczynski was recruited into the CIA in 1985 by the same Mr. Waltz who recruited Yosef Amit, and he allegedly turned over to the Americans information on where Israel based nuclear weapons, and also helped to uncover Jonathan Pollard’s spying against America. (Ha’aretz, May 18, 2001)

Kielczynski later sued the CIA, claiming breach of contract – supposed promises of money and American citizenship having not been forthcoming. In contesting the suit, the CIA did not deny that Kielczynski was a CIA asset. Instead, it won the case by citing a 125-year-old precedent (Totten v. United States, 92 U.S. 105 [1875]) to the effect that “secret information agreements to which a United States government agency is a party cannot be enforced in the courts … because its litigation could jeopardize confidential information.” ( New York Law Journal, Feb. 27, 2001)

In other words, the CIA’s own legal defense confirmed that it had recruited Kielczynski as a spy against Israel.

Conclusion

Spy stories and allegations always garner banner headlines and television “exclusives” if Israel is involved, but the reality is that most such cases fade away for lack of any credible evidence. Many seem to be the result of overzealous investigators, some of whom may harbor unfriendly attitudes towards Jews or Israel (witness, for example, the anti-Semitic language in the Ciralsky memos).

The media, and the public, should remember this when new spy allegations crop up. The media should also remember that spying is a two way street — and while Israel has spied on America in the past, so has America spied on Israel.

Aug 30, 2004 - 2:43 pm

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