163 Comments

1. BobT:

Watching the twins made me uncomfortable – every bit as much as the Kerry daughters did. Maybe the children need to be kept away…

IMO Arnold was fine. That was exactly the type of speech he should have delivered, accompanied with just a little red meat and a lot of fun.

Buchanan is starting to look like he realizes he’s being passed by.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:04 pm 2. frendlydude2k:

arnold couldn’t withstand comparison to rudy. i didn’t expect him to. but i wasn’t inspired by him either. i don’t at all mind his self parody though, i rather enjoy it.

as a partisan wondering how the battleground indys will vote, i winced at his praise if nixon though.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:06 pm 3. Hovig:

Holy yuck. I can’t believe you stood so close to Pat Buchanan. I need to go wash myself now.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:10 pm 4. richard mcenroe:

Buchanan being passed by? Aha! Tense trouble…

He’s probably off muttering, “this is why we locked delegates out back in the Reform Party…”

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:11 pm 5. John Lynch:

Roger

You seem uncomfortable, but this is playing well out here in Ohio.

Ahnold was OK, the twins awful but fascinating in a trainwreck sort of way, and Laura just got my wife’s vote. I guess we can vote a straight ticket from this house now.

In a weird way, the twins got my wife to listen to Laura. I’m still a stranger to the female mind. sigh.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:20 pm 6. Mark Poling:

Give the twins (and Laura) a break, if necessary.

I’m voting for the person on the ballot, not the associated soap opera.

The current fashion of trotting out the extended family seems a step backwards to me. The kids (all) have some growing up to do. The spouses married the human, and not the job opportunity.

(Well, with one notable exception in the recent historical record that we all know about.)

Policy and the candidate’s character should be all that matter. Anything else is a distraction. I’ve not learned anything from the extended family bits from either convention that moved me one way or the other.

Damn, I hope this is a fad that fades.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:23 pm 7. Gerard Van der Leun:

What is this? Dogpile on the twins night? Every blogger I bring up is slagging the girls.

Let’s all take a step back and a deep breath.

Not every moment matters and not every syllable out of the mouths of babes counts.

They came on, they did some schtick, it was lame, they said hi to Grandma, they introduced Dad and they left.

They are 22 years old…. twenty two… they’re feckless and their self-involved — Not like any other twenty-two year old , are they?

We’re not voting for the girls. We’re voting for the father.

Let it slide. It means nothing.

Don’t let New York get you down. Take a walk across the Brooklyn Bridge tomorrow morning.

Better still, take the subway to Clark Street and walk back into the city early over the Bridge.

It will clear your head and give you a boost.

I promise.

Remember, Roger, you are spending your days in the worst indoor space in the city.

I know, I worked across Seventh avenue at 11 Penn Plaza for five years.

Walk the city, let the neighborhoods roll by. Come out of the Garden and go to 32nd street. Walk east through little Korea, go all the way to 2nd Avenue. Turn right and walk south until you get to the 2nd Avenue Deli down by Judson Church, way down by Judson Church. Stop in for an egg cream and a corned beef sandwich, extra lean, on seeded rye. Have a pickled tomato and some cole slaw. You will emerge a new man. Clear out the skull. You’ll be the better for it.

Trust me on this.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:26 pm 8. Solomon:

I ignored the girls (I can’t believe I just typed that).

Thought Arnold was terrific. Great moment.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:26 pm 9. Terrye:

I think it is time for a female to step in here.

The girls were cute, not all that inspiring but they don’t have to be. Laura seems like a good person. A good person that reflects well on her husband, unlike Tereza. This was for the ladies. Now I can not speak for all of them of course but it was nice.

I thought Arnold did very well and before we compare to him to the speakers last night just remember he is not a Senator/war hero nor was he the may of NYC when the WTC fell. The history is different. Arnold is the optimistic and inclusive one and he did that well.

Over all I thought it was pretty good.

But this is really all about Bush.

Cheney has to speak soon and I almost feel sorry for him, he gets such bad press. I guess some young woman got past security and got close to Cheney and started screaming about war profiteering. sheesh.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:34 pm 10. Terrye:

An Althouse liked the twins. See I told you.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:37 pm 11. Peggy Kaplan:

Someone needed to give the girls the hook. The worst part was their script (or lack thereof). Roger – they needed you!

The rest of the evening was fine. My highlight, however, has still been Rudy. Incredible passion and getting to the heart of the matter.

I’m sure I’m prejudiced – but the Democrats, contrasted to the Republicans, seem negative, bitter, mean and frightened.

Even a die hard Democrat said to me this evening, “Kerry is toast. Toasty toasty….”

Let’s hope he is right!

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:40 pm 12. themarkman:

On Arnold,

I live in Pennsylvania (transplanted Texan – circa 2001), and this is the first time I have seen him speak for an extended period. Most of the country hasn’t seen him speak in a polical setting. I thought he was great.

On the Twins,

being a middle-class American my entire life, I know people who have family structure just like the Bushes. They’re daughters are not pro’s, and I don’t want to elect any parent who has professional political children when they’re 21. I als like families where there is such well-adjusted, normal children. I got into trouble a little as a kid. So did just about everyone else. We just didn’t have the national media on us. The spotlight has not changed them and I say Good.

On Laura,

She described a husband that many women (the majority, mind you, not those skinny types on the television) would cherish. She described a man of quiet strength and dignity. You may not see him that way, but as his wife, she does.

They may be rich, but they seem like Everyfamily, and have for years. I know people who act like they do, and I would cringe to watch my sisters introduce me. But they would come up with something similiar without professional help, but I would not attempt to force it on them. I trust that they know me well enough to not get my name wrong, I also love them enough not to try to turn them into a total political operative just because they love me enough to want to see me succeed. They are well-adjusted girls, and had some fun, and you know that they are doing it for love, not power.

Kerry looks, acts, talks, and is a rich man to his core. Bush looks, acts, talks and is a man happy with his life. He may be a wealthy man, but he doesn’t remind you of it with his every breath.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:44 pm 13. vnjagvet:

Roger:

In the “for what it’s worth department:

My wife liked the twins and so did my five voting age daughters (aged 23-28) who found them more natural than the Kerry girls.

Their comments wemt something like:

They must have a cool dad.

All loved Laura. “She’s normal”

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:46 pm 14. penwil:

Perhaps my expectations were low, but I was pleasantly surprised by Arnold’s speech. Mostly I liked that he was himself. Remember, he is a hugely popular actor (don’t ask me why–I’ve never been able to see his appeal, but there you go . . . ), and I expect he got a lot of people to tune in tonight who might otherwise not have. And then he told them–in plain, simle language, and all the while sounding upbeat and proud and with just the right touch of self-deprecating humor–why he’s a Republican and why they should vote for Bush.

Also, the guy is apparently very popular among Latin Americans–he got a big percentage of their vote in the recall election, and in spite of the fact that the major Democrat (outside of Davis) was an hispanic.

Aug 31, 2004 - 8:56 pm 15. Eric Deamer:

I’m totally contrarian on all this.

I loved Arnold. Aside from the tired “girly men” thing, I thought his speech was great, the best of the convention thus far, better than Giuliani’s. I love Rudy, and I loved parts of his speech, but I think it needed tightening. He rambled and went on too long.

I thought the girls came off terribly. They seemed like ditzes. They were trying to make fun of their image and ended up confirming it. Laura seems like a very nice person but didn’t add anything substantive.

The whole trotting the family out thing is silly when either party does it. AS’s speech should have been at the end, as it was the only substantive one. With the lame personal color speeches, the whole evening was a wash, and I felt silly watching some of that stuff.

Laura is a kazillion times more likable than terayyyza, but the Kerry girls kick the Bush twins’ asses. My image of the ideal first daughter runs a bit more studious and strait-laced than they are.

And Pat Buchanan hasn’t been part of the party in years. He’s an irrelevancy, Thank God.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:02 pm 16. NoseWad:

The girls acted like real girls. My own 10-year-old would have loved this speech had she been able to pull herself away from that same band the Bush twins (do I capitalize “twins” now?) mentioned. Ditsy, adolescent, ‘girlie’, whatever. They were typical of American 20-year-olds. I suspect I’d be labeled with similar adjectives had I been asked to speak in front of several million empowered and confused Americans.

I’ve never commented here but I’ve been reading Ol’ Roger’s blog for quite some time. I’m getting the feeling that he’s a fish out of water at the convention. As if he is having a Steiner “dark night of the soul”… Just remember: they say that when you come out the other side you will be enlightened.

I’m with you. Something doesn’t feel right and there is a that tell tale tingle of hopeless inevitability in all this. The question of “what is right” (or, actually, “real”) weighs heavy on the mind…

As for Laura– she’s the only one that is yet to be tar and feathered and you have to respect that. She is a swell Lady whom I respect greatly.

I’m voting for Bush.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:09 pm 17. Plinypere:

Roger, you must miss your family and LA. You seem to be depressed in NYC and the overwhelming crowds at MSG. Relax, take a breath and try to remember the flight back home will return three hours of your life. I don’t like to travel away, either…but, I didn’t start a blog or get press credentials, either.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:13 pm 18. Rich:

Kinda nice to see all this reflected in a party we can all get along in, just like Arnold said. Roger, I don’t agree with you much of the time, I don’t agree with Arnold, and there are a few points with which I disagree with GW. Heck, I dont even subscribe to Pat Buchannan’s viewpoints. But it’s nice to know that we all agree that without a strong front against terrorism, perhaps more fundamentally against random violence in any form, that none of our differences would bear discussing.

Nice effort at blogging it from the front line, Roger!

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:17 pm 19. Matteo:

Well, I thought Arnold’s speech was absolutely electrifying. It brought the house down (at least what I could see on teevee) in a way that wasn’t even approached at the Democrat Convention. This was a convention moment like the ones I remember from the 1980 Republican convention (when I was 15). There’s got to be a few folks who perceive that this is simply the winning team, the otpimistic team, and the “happening” team, and are thereby attracted to it. That will be worth something on election day. Also, yeah, the twins weren’t great, but they weren’t awful. I’d never heard them speak before. They’re pretty cute. This should have a disarming effect at some deep neurological level for the folks who imagine the Repubs as being evil personified, setting up a bit of cognitive dissonance for some folks.

Reflecting on how things have been going, I see that it’s interesting that Bush has let his opponents demonize and demonize and demonize him for a very long time, but he’s saved his real campaign response until now. Seeing and hearing all of these folks at the convention is quite a jarring contrast to all of the slander. It might be like waking up from an irrational dream for many viewers.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:17 pm 20. Byron00:

The twins were fine, as if it even matters; people around their own age liked them, I’ll bet. And women, especially women with kids or grandkids, found a lot to like and to connect with in Laura Bush’s speech. Even Dad’s intro hit the right note of slightly embarrassed pride and sincerity. A very nice family, and authentically middle American. Kerry can hit the light switch on his way out.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:23 pm 21. insatty:

Had the twins tried to say something substantive, they would have really sounded phony. This was them, and I admire anyone that is not afraid to just be him/herself. Laura is the reason W has done anything of substance with his life. He really loves her, unlike the Bill-Hill charade.

Arnold, too, was himself. Who else but someone telling the truth would mention Nixon in a positive way? Reagan inspired me, and turned me into a conservative. But I always looked at Reagan as some God-like figure. W and Arnold are inspiring too, but they seem like everyday Americans like me doing the best they can. For the first time since I left the Democrats, I feel at home.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:30 pm 22. M. Simon:

My first mate wants to vote for Arnold. We live in Illinois.

I especially loved the bit about the wounded service man. Compare it to the Kerry bug out.

My 13 year old daughter (beauty with excellent brains) liked Arnold too. So that is how you get the woman vote – attract them with a man and then “girly” talk from the women. Good psychology.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:30 pm 23. richard mcenroe:

Roger, bubbeleh, why all the kvetching about the twins? This is classic vaudeville strategy. You open with a few strong acts to nail the audience in their seats, then a kid act, then an animal act (substitute a few close-ups of Michael Moore), then the ventriloquist and his dummy (OK, Hugh Hewitt already interviewed MacAuliff), THEN you bring out the star for his big solo turn and the major production number to close out the house…

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:36 pm 24. Mike_Nargizian:

Buchanan was just on Greta he said the neoconservatives told Bush what to expect after liberating Iraq and they were wrong so they need to be fired from the government.

So Greta said -

“So shouldn’t the President be fired he is the one who made the decision in the end?”

So Pat says -

“No, JfK told his handlers that if Bay of Pigs happened in England he would be fired but in America they get fired.”(nice rationalization Pat)

So to bjuy Pat’s logic you have to believe that Bush and Cheney (emphasis mine) are being overwhelmed and dictated to by these clever neocons?

Maybe you could sell the Bush part which would however entail making Bush the moron his critics claim and Pat would of course take umbrage with…

And Cheney being dictated to or swayed over by these “Neocons” of cleverness…

A guy whose has been in government before under Gerald Ford and is an extremely intelligent, stubborn and successful businessman on his own.

So Pat then goes on to tell Greta on how much he does agree with Bush on… yadayadayadayada….

“he just needs to get rid of those neocons”

Pat’s been stumping like crazy his book trying to be relevant and unfortunately he gets airtime on many shows, Hannity, Ingraham, Fox, MSNBC etc..

Regarding Bush’s daughers -

Roger, Chris Wallace (Mike’s son) of Fox thought Bush’s daughters were excellent and he thought they humanized both their mother and father.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:45 pm 25. Barry Dauphin:

The twins weren’t there to please the policy wonks. Lots of people hate Bush in such a way as to make him inhuman. Yes, the twins were all too human, but I suspect that was vetted and intentional.

I thought Arnold played well on TV. He was optimistic, enthusiatic and personable. I thought his speech was very successful. I suspect that he will now retire the “girlie men” line though. Roger, I would think you’d be pleased that Pat B. is unhappy with so much of the convnetion.

Bush is supposed to give his speech in the round, so I’ve heard. I hope you are able to find a good situation that could allow you to be on the floor when he speaks. But in any event it’s great to read your thoughts from the scene.

Aug 31, 2004 - 9:49 pm 26. Kevin P:

Roger;

You are right about the twins. They were a waste of airtime. Laura was fine but I have not liked the idea of spouses speaking unless they are elected or government officials. This need to turn the conventions into a Oprah segment is stale and I hope it will end soon. But i think you are missing the boat on Arnold. Yes, the movie references are getting old but the rag to riches immigrant story is not. Especially when you compare it to the doom and gloom two america’s theme of Edwards. We get so much of the America is the root of all evil in the MSM and the universities that Arnold’s unabashed love for this country never gets old. He is too stiff as an actor to fake it. His love is real and it is refreshing. It also goes over well with the immigrant community IMHO.Rudy will be the highlight of the convention and Arnold does not compare to him but I think he did a good job

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:16 pm 27. Kevin P:

Roger:

Regarding Pat, he is a bitter fossil and he will fade away eventually. It is hard to work your way back into a party after you have backstabbed it.

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:19 pm 28. TmjUtah:

I agree with Peggy Kaplan, mostly.

I could only force myself to watch one partial night of the Democrat convention, and that only because I had seen Obama mentioned as a rising star. On that one night I did watch, I saw nervous angry people.

That is not what I saw tonight. Optomism is a good thing; I wish I had a lot more of it than I do.

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:35 pm 29. steve811:

I have to say I found the twins a riot, as in a riot of silliness and evidence that in fact you don’t have to work hard in life to do well. to watch the daughters of a mulitmillionaire only be able to laugh as giddy teenagers only reminded me that they could barely get into college and were clearly not, despite the best possible benefits of unearned wealth and connections, able to make it into a university that was competitive. The poor dears.

i loved the sex in the city comments, ya could hear a pin drop in the texas delegation.

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:39 pm 30. lindenen:

Hmmmm… just because you’re a giddy airhead doesn’t mean you might not also be a reasonably intelligent person with a 4.0 gpa. Some of the goofiest people I know are mechanical engineers.

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:49 pm 31. steve811:

No, in their case it’s pretty plainly a case of being giddy and none too bright. A really subpar performance for children of such a background, to put it mildly.

Still, I loved the hush that came over the crowd with the sex and city remarks, that only provided additional entertainment in addition to the failure of America’s better classes to produce outcomes that one would expect.

Aug 31, 2004 - 10:56 pm 32. asher:

“Nothing seems to make Pat happy these days.”

Best news I’ve heard all day. The post was worth reading for that alone.

Aug 31, 2004 - 11:00 pm 33. steve811:

Oh my gosh, even more depressing, one of them even swung her affirmative action connections, got into Yale, and still is incapable of carrying off the act…

Aug 31, 2004 - 11:09 pm 34. Pat Curley:

Buchanan is living proof that it is not hard to go from radical right to radical left (or vice-versa). Indeed, it might be easier than it is to go from radical anything to moderate of either side. You think about his issues–nativist, anti-trade, isolationist, at least the appearance of anti-semitism, and what do you think? I’m hearing the Far Left. Buchanan still has the culture war stuff, but aside from that you’d be hard-pressed to find a lot of differences on substantive things between him and lefty icon Dennis Kucinich.

Aug 31, 2004 - 11:20 pm 35. Mike_Nargizian:

I should have ignored this one but couldn’t.

evidence that in fact you don’t have to work hard in life to do well. to watch the daughters of a mulitmillionaire only be able to laugh as giddy teenagers only reminded me that they could barely get into college and were clearly not, despite the best possible benefits of unearned wealth and connections, able to make it into a university that was competitive.

Are you kidding me? The top notch Uni crap? And the “poor dears”?

They’re both cute, seemingly well adjusted and happy and they’re 22 years old.

They both sounded and looked cute.

Here’s a clue….

They got the world on a string looking down a rainbow…(is that the Sinatra line?)

I and many other guys would line up to date the blonde if I were 22, even 28.

The horror they’ll both marry good looking guys get good jobs and they apparently had a great time in college.

Aug 31, 2004 - 11:41 pm 36. Mike_Nargizian:

Isn’t the internet great…

Sitting on a rainbow actually, which one could say it appears the Bush girls, certainly Jenna is sitting on… ain’t it great to be 22.

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/FRANK-SINATRA/ive-got-the-world-on-a-string.html

I’ve got the world on a string

Sitting on a rainbow

Got that string around my finger

What a world, what a life, I’m in love

I’ve got a song that I sing

I can make the rain go

Anytime I snap my finger

What a world, what a life, I’m in love

Life’s a beautiful thing

Long as I hold that string

I’d be a silly so-and-so

If I’d ever let you go

Aug 31, 2004 - 11:47 pm 37. StreetGOP:

Awww I dunno Roger, I think he did pretty dern good.. It wasn’t a home run like Giuliani’s game breaker, but it was a solid tripple.

I think the odd-robotic-off-key: “four more years” Ahnald belted out at the end may have squashed the gravitas a bit for you..

I understand.

StreetGOP

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:11 am 38. Mr Vee:

First comment, longtime lurker:

I thought McCain was good.

I thought Arnold was outstanding.

I thought Giuliani was triumphant. Superb. He was effective supporting Bush and equally effective skewering Kerry and Bush’s antagonists in Europe for their appeasement strategy toward terrorists. The speech was not only outstanding, it was delivered tremendously, and amazingly dead center on point as to why people should vote for Bush.

I disagree with Roger on Arnold. I thought his jokes at the start were a bit obvious but they were genuinely funny and that’s always welcome at these sort of events. I thought from there the speech was both heartfelt and also addressed party concerns about Arnold. Arnold knows the middle loves him. But Arnold made the case for himself as a Republican to the Republicans, and then deftly turned the issue back toward the audience and assured people that _they_ were Republicans.

The MSNBC panel (Andrea Mitchell, J.C. Watts, Meachan from Newsweek and Scarborough) when Matthews pinned them down and forced them to pick one, it was a 2-2 tie between Rudy and Arnold for best speech. I think that’s generous to Arnold for sure as Giuliani set an absurd bar, but I thought Arnold’s delivery was superior to McCain and while his content was not quite as good, that it came relatively close speaks volumes to how good a job he did.

It was unfortunate, as one pundit put it, that the kids and Laura Bush had to follow him as they had little choice but to drain the air out of the room.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:19 am 39. Mike_Nargizian:

MOORE’S 2 ARTICLES IN USA TODAY -

Roger what’s your opinion of Moore’s 2 articles written about the Convention in USA Today. Fyi, apparently he had enough and is leaving the Convention.

The GOP doesn’t reflect America

Michael Moore, Filmmaker

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2004-08-30-moore-gopamerica_x.htm

The Ebert and McCain show

By Michael Moore

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-08-31-moore_x.htm

Here is my comment on his 1rst article which isn’t as partisan at first as you’d think.

Moore left out his own radical views and what he would do and how he would do it.

For instance, how he would deal with Arafat, the UN, how he would pay for Health Insurance, how he would tax companies, what he would do for ‘clean water’, etc….

He presents himself as a moderate and not a self hating American who goes to France and belittles and demeans America and Americans to people who are all envious of America.

The big ruse wasn’t as much the Republican Convention, as it was Moore trying to present himself as a moderate.

Mike

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:47 am 40. Birkel:

Steve811

If you’re trolling for this site, stop it.

Adults play here and you’ll need to stay at the children’s table unless you mature.

Try to be mature and in a couple of years you can sit at the ‘big people’ table, o.k.?

Best of luck with that.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:05 am 41. David Thomson:

We can debate the quality of these debates until the cows come home. The only thing that truly matters are their impact on the swing voters. Will the Republican convention push up the President Bushís poll numbers by at least another 5-6 points? I think the answer is yes.

Another big question: how will John Kerry be received by the active and retired military personnel later today? Unless he successfully wins them over—the Massachusetts senatorís campaign may be effectively over.

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:38 am 42. Erik:

I just managed to find a transcript of Arnolds speech. I havent heard it, it was in the middle of the night here, and I also have had some problems with my satellite dish last few days.

My perspective is probably similar to a lot of immigrants in the US, even though I dont live there, so I thought I should share my thoughts.

I thought Arnolds speech was very powerful. Anyone that has lived close to socialism can identify with his story about living close to the Soviet Union, being afraid to be taken away at a whim. Even if you never saw a Soviet tank or soldier, and was never afraid for your life, you’d identify with the feeling of government suddenly taking control of your life, and deciding over it. I certainly did, and I could easily identify with the scared young boy sitting in a car.

The contrast to America that produces is very striking. Arnold speaks about coming to America, full of hopes and dreams, a country with freedom and opportunity he dreamed about for years. Then he hears a politician speaking the same lines he heard back home, and immidiately decides to support the other guy, who speaks of the America he’s dreamed about. I immidiately thought of Kerry, who to me sounds very “socialist”, and I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of other people made the same connection.

I think that a lot, if not most, immigrants in the US, and families with strong memories of “the old country” will feel it to be a very persuasive speech.

It’s straight to the heart, it’s honest, and it contains a lot of truths that simply aren’t told as often as they should. Arnold illustrated just how ridicolous it is to cast the US as “bad guy”, and how great the US is.

My immidiate parallell was John F Kennedys “Freedom has many difficulties, and democracy is not perfect but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us!”

It’s simple, honest and obvious, and everyone listening to it knows it’s true.

I was taken by Arnolds speech just from reading it. The few obvious jokes just made it more personal and honest to me. Then again, I’m not a voter…

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:54 am 43. Matt Evans:

Thoughts:

In my opinion, Arnold was fantastic. The republicans landing him is a big deal. He played into his image without coming off goofy- I think what many people forget is that his ability to laugh at his image (even when he’s governor) is a big part of his appeal – a sense of humor counts (seen also in Rudy’s speech last night). Arnold’s a self made immigrant- I thought the most important point he made was that despite America’s alleged negative image overseas, America is still the place immigrants dream of.

The Bush twins were cute and stupid- they did their jobs- frankly, I suspect they were thrown up there for the sole purpose of showing the 18-25 voting block that the republicans are not such stodgy old farts that they won’t let the twins act silly for 10 mins. Plus, I’d like to meet young Barbara- gorgeous and Yale educated- RAWR!

Was I the only one underwhelmed by Laura’s speech ? As someone noted above, its quite possible that I was not the demographic she was appealing to anyway – my GF thought she was down to earth pretty and classy- high praise indeed. The contrast to Theresa Kerry is striking- if anything, woman seem to be able to identify with Laura- she just doesn’t seem to … foreign ?

if I had my way, Arnold would have ended the evening but I suppose you can’t make the first lady go on last. We’ve still got Zell, Cheney to go and honestly, the one guy I’m looking forward to is Tommy Franks on Thursday – I saw him with Hannity last night and I think letting him talk about what he saw in Iraq and all the things the media are not reporting thats happening over there (ie the positive things) is a smart move by the GOP. I want to see the press go after Franks as a republican schill- that backlast would be shocking to them.

Bush by 8 points.

Sep 1, 2004 - 4:50 am 44. David Thomson:

Pat Buchanan is a dinosaur who represents a decreasing number of the ìIíll Take My Standî Old Right. The Republican Party marginalized him some ten years ago. There is no logical reason for Buchanan to keep landing employment on the cable networks. What audience is he attracting? No, he simply survives because the major media feel comfortable and unthreatened by his presence. Nixonís loyal adherent is a relic of a past era that will never return. Roger Simon recognizes Buchanan because both men are about the same age. The younger generation barely know of him. Buchanan is rapidly becoming a footnote in the history books.

Sep 1, 2004 - 5:33 am 45. holdfast:

Come on guys/gals, give the twins a break. I thought that the speech was OK, except for the groan-fest where they basically ran through the names of the WH staff. This is part of the warmup, not the main event. Laura did her job – I don’t think that the family fest is a great idea but take it as a given, and Laura did a good job. You don’t want the First Lady to be too slick or look like a professional pol, or it starts to look like Hillary. People know that Laura is smart and capable, but they LIKE to know that only one person in that relationship has the level of narcicism necessary to be a professional pol.

Arnold was fantastic – better than McCain, though not up to Rudy. The story about the soldier missing a leg who wants to get back into combat is similar to stories I heard from an Army orthapedic surgeon in July. There is an implicit contrast with a guy who goes home on 1 good and 2 cheesy purple hearts. His immigrant’s tale was also great – and speaks to people that the GOP has to reach.

Oh – and screw Buchanan – he just gives true conservatives a bad name. He’s an opportunistic demagogue who would be disturbingly at home posting on DU.

Sep 1, 2004 - 5:58 am 46. Akira:

Pat’s time has come and gone, and he’s just a bitter old man.

I thought Arnold did well, but perhaps I had lower expectations going in than Roger. He’s not a bad speaker, despite the accent, and he has a pretty strong aura about him.

The twins were cringe inducing. I don’t know how else to put it. I couldn’t even watch that slow train wreck.

Sep 1, 2004 - 5:59 am 47. Jamie Irons:

I think Laura comes across as a wonderful and wholly authentic person; she reminds me, in a positive way and perhaps unsurprisingly, of the best teachers I had as a kid.

I didn’t mind the twins at all, perhaps because I have 22-year-old twins (boys in my case).

Ahnuld was terrific; I agree with those commenters here who have said the story of his childhood terror is powerful and convincing. He utterly refutes, by his mere presence, much of the victimization posture that today’s Democrats — my party!!! — try to pass off as a political philosophy.

Jamie Irons

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:10 am 48. Catherine:

Terry, thank you—–

I think you should change your onscreen name to Voice of Reason.

I love the Bush girls, and I liked them onstage at the convention. Their speech was lame, but I assumed they didn’t think it up themselves. Even if they did, as Gerard pointed out, they’re 22.

If I’m not mistaken, John Kerry was 27 when he made his Winter Soldier statement to the Senate. So the Bush girls are doing fine by my book.

And I should add that I liked that “We had a hamster, too” line. I’m guessing they did think that one up.

I actually am voting for the children, to a degree.

Every time I see Barbara & Jenna Bush I think, “They turned out well.”

For me, that’s a huge plus. Whether or not it should be a huge plus, I don’t know. Look at Reagan’s kids. OTOH, I have never become a “Reagan convert,” as others who have shifted rightward have.

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:15 am 49. Darleen:

During the CA recall, I got to attend the Arnold rally in San Bernardino. Arnold was very good, even if his speech is not “nuanced” he has the ability through sheer force of his optimism and good cheer to connect to people. As I watched him last night, all I could think “Damn, he’s getting better!”

By the way, he was not endorsing Nixon (even though that’s what some would like to believe of that line), he was speaking to what the ideas were coming through to him as a non-English speaking immigrant having the Humphrey/Nixon debates translated to him.

Ok, I cringed at the twins a bit, but you just had to see that they were not the overgroomed, coached, affected trustfund/Hollywood brats that one easily encounters in El-Lay.. the type of kids that were never kids. And giggly self-consciousness has not a thing to do with IQ or brains, so I don’t know where some get off saying they didn’t earn their way into college (was anyone saying that about Chelsea and Stanford?)

Laura is a class act. She’s the teacher you meet at back-to-school night and start thanking God she’s at the school for your kid and would wish your kid could have her through college! No contest on what would happen if she and Tah-ree-zha were in the same room.

I watched some of the DemCon, and the basic difference I’m getting from these two events is that the Dems were just so much anger, doom and gloom and the Republicans are having a great happy time.

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:43 am 50. steve811:

Wow, my comments on the twins who never had to work for their wealth and can drink, party, and stay wealthy for the rest of their giddy lives really rubbed people the wrong way I guess. I’m sorry, the twins are shining examples of what hard work in life can bring, nothing but lifetime success.

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:50 am 51. Darleen:

steve811

Slamming on a couple of happy 22 y/o’s reflects more on you than them.

Get help for the green-eyed monster.

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:54 am 52. Lola:

I watched all three speeches. I liked what Arnold had to say and he really bought it to life for me. I was waiting for him to bring up the “I’ll be back” line and wasn’t disappointed. I wonder how Maria was feeling up there.

As for the twins’ speech, yes, it was a bit lame. But hey, they’re young and just learning their way around the adult world, so cut them some slack. They deserve credit for getting up in front of that large audience and the national television. I did wonder who wrote the speech – it looks like they had a lot of input into it. And besides, it’s their father’s last campaign, so they deserved to have a shot in the public. Plus, it put a human face on the family – their kids are just like every American couple’s children.

I really liked Laura and how she handled herself. She is a very classy lady, and her speech had that calm, measured, reassuring approach. I felt like I could sit down with her over a cup of coffee and ask for advice on marriage, what is the best education for my child who would turn out to be very gifted and bored to tears at the average public school, what is so great about the current #1 fiction best seller. And feeling that she can represent our country on her visits abroad with a dignified manner.

Sep 1, 2004 - 6:58 am 53. ricpic:

Gerard Van der Leun,

Now why’d you have to go and make me all homesick for New York?

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:10 am 54. David Thomson:

ìWow, my comments on the twins who never had to work for their wealth and can drink, party, and stay wealthy for the rest of their giddy lives really rubbed people the wrong way I guess.î

Are you confusing them with Paris and Nicky Hilton? You are right that the twins are wealthy and will never have to worry about putting bread on the table. Nonetheless, they have been brought up in a tradition which pushes them to excel. These young ladies are expected to do something special with their lives. The concept of noblesse oblige may seem corny to some—but in the Bush family this concept is taken very seriously.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:12 am 55. jerry:

Lindenie:

I resemble that remark…

Arnold did a very good job of explaining what the Republican Party is about. It is the party of Madisonian republicanism, free markets and opportunity. Too many people get hung up on the social liberal/social conservative divide with in the party accept the general view propagated by the MSM. The basis for this intra-party disagreement is informed not by interest group politics but by interpretations of individual versus community rights. People forget that the original support for abortion came not from liberal Democrats but from Conservative Republicans. The Republicans are the “big tent” party. We accept differences in opinion even as we hotly debate them. The Democrats measure “diversity” in the same way Stalin did, i.e., a collection of the right mix of the community all nodding their heads in agreement with the great leader.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:19 am 56. Knucklehead:

I didn’t get to pay much attention to the convention. I saw somebody (Hannity/Colmes?) interviewing Rangle. He came out with the tired old “Bush is dumb, look at the comparative college records” tripe and then when the interviewer pushed him a bit on Kerry’s record he “didn’t want to dwell on the past… need to look forward… blahblah.”

The Bush Twins caused me to tune out and I didn’t manage to get tuned back in. Their fine, I just don’t much care about politicians kids. If any were to come out and tell us their dad was an abusive asshole I might care, but that’s not the case here. The Kerry Twins are stuffy aristocrats. The Bush Twins seem “real” by today’s standards of the young people I have access to. Minor data point, possibly a distant tie-breaker kinda thing.

I care a bit more about candidates spouses. Laura Bush strikes me as woman I’d be proud to count as a friend – the real deal. Says something very positive about her husband. Teresa Heinz-Kerry is petulant billionaire. If she bought me a pocket mansion or allowed me to use one of her remote vacation estates I’d pretend to like her, but otherwise whatever she says or does is so far removed from anything I care about that I discount her. Her choice of husbands might say something about her, not sure what it says about him.

Arnold did fine. To me he seemed to be issuing the Engraved Invitation to the go-getter crowd: The Republican Party is a better place for you than the establishment, aristocratic, class conscious Democratic Party. Pretty much inviting those who are considering jumping in the pool to comeon down, Hoss, ’cause the water’s fine.

I saw Buchanan interviewed a couple times. I can’t abide the man. Some think his time has passed, I don’t see why he ever had a time. I don’t get it. But at least I see where the “fire anybody we don’t like who can pin any hint of making any mistake, anywhere!” comes from. He’ll be marching with the Anti-global Moonbats and Nader next. Good riddance, they can have him.

Picked up the NYT “P” section for the heck of it. There really is no need to describe how far they’ve gone in abandoning any pretense of being objective. I can barely get past the second or third graph of any article – assuming I can get passed the headline. If anyone’s got Section P handy, have a look at Nagourney on P8. Have a look at the second paragraph of his article describing the “two-sided template” of the Republican strategy:

The first part is to batter Mr. Kerry, as Mr. Guiliani did with almost ruthless abandon to open the convention…

If Guiliani’s attack on Kerry meets Nagourney or the Dems idea of “battering with ruthless abandon”, they really need to consider growing or buying a hide.

And the whining about the Purple Heart Bandaids?!? What a bunch of humorless dopes. At least they gave us the photo of Kerry windsurfing. I guess he’s got the self-indulgent, no end of expensive hobbies voting block locked up.

And check out Alessandra Stanley (whoever she is) on P9. Second graph…

Laura Bush has also tried to keep her assistance to her husband vieled, but she was unmasked this week…

Somebody above said the Dems seem bitter and angry. They are. Add ethically lost in the winderness. Add humorless also.

As to Kerry’s campaign team shakeup… their gonna go really hardcore on the attack machine while leaving the whining segment in place. Yeah, that’ll work. Rove just recently called down to have his weapons and ammo brought out of storage and these guys think they’re gonna get tough. And when they’re all lying there in 2 more months with the crap kicked out of them they’ll be whining about how mean their opponents were. The Crybaby Party, that’s about what they’ve fallen to.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:21 am 57. Knucklehead:

OMG! Don’t miss the NYT’s P10! Some dope named Andy Newman is fretting ’cause The Dancers are Ready. Where are the GOP Laps?

The screwed up, sexually oppressed Republicans aren’t letting their hair down with lap dancers enough! And to few who do don’t have much cash to throw around. Wow, pow.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:31 am 58. Fresh Air:

Knuckle–

I thought the protestors wanted all the Republicans to go home. Make up your mind, New York!

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:37 am 59. Knucklehead:

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Catherine With a C but No AZ, this one’s for you

I’m not a Dick Morris fan (call me a prude but the idea of sucking toes gets my gag reflex going – I love my Better Two-Thirds dearly but she can keep her feet and her toejam, thank you very much) but I happened to pass by the TV when somebody was talking to him and he was going on about what a “triumph” (or some similar extremely positive word) Bush’s education policy has been and how Clinton would have killed to pull off something like that wrt education policy. As we’ve talked about before, NCLB is something that at least gets me to reconsider my well-developed abhorence to the Feds sticking their noses and our money into things better left to the locals, so I the comment perked my ears. I don’t know whether or not Bubba even tried to get anything significant in place wrt to education policy, so I can’t comment on whether or not he would have killed for such a success as NCLB.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:47 am 60. ELMO:

Arnold’s speech, the twins’ low brow moment. Laura …. blah, blah. BFD.

We haven’t been attacked in YEARS. We are caught up in the minor details of an election campaign.

“Schwarzenegger, the first Republican I ever voted for”

Makes two of us. Shoot, was in a Repub campaign headquarters for the first time in my life as well last week. Picked up a Bush/Cheney ‘04 button.

I’m proud of my differences with the President on social/domestic issues. Proud to give unqualified support to someone I disagree with. Proud of my country. Proud of my fellow Americans. Proud of my fellow denizens in the blogosphere. Lighting the way to a new tomorrow.

Blog on!

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:48 am 61. Knucklehead:

Fresh Air,

I guess they’d like them to leave town and also leave their money if they had any (which party is the party of the rich again?)

On further thought I may have been unfair to Mr. Newman by calling him a dope. He did, after all, get the NYT to pay him to hang out in a Gentleman’s Club chattin’ up the girls. On the other hand, however, he seems to have believed the “graduate student” schtick, so I guess the jury’s still out.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:52 am 62. penwil:

I was going to say this is OT, but it isn’t. Rather THIS is what this election is all about:

MOSCOW (AFP) – Gunmen with explosives strapped around their waists took more than 200 people hostage at a school in southern Russia near war-torn Chechnya and threatened to blow up the building if the security forces moved in.

It could be happening here. We know it could happen here. This, and worse. What would Kerry do in a situation like this? Call France? The UN?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040901/ts_afp/russia_ossetia_040901132655

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:15 am 63. RogerA:

I had never seen a complete Arnold Speech–I thought he was awfully good–and my wife loved it. I enjoyed the optimism and the sense of humor–I can see why he blew Gray Davis away–He was even, dare I say it, Reaganesque with a Teutonic accent. Compare his sense of optimism and humor with the Dems–

Guiliani was superb IMHO–clearly on the fast track for the 2008 run–and his recitation of terrorism going back to Munich must have certainly touched a chord in the Jewish voters. why do I find myself salivating over the prospect of a Rudy–Hillary contest in 2008? Oh well–first things first. Clearly the turmoil in the Kerry camp says a lot about him–if he can’t run a campaign staff, how will he run the country?

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:18 am 64. Retread:

I’ve made the rounds of the blogs this morning and nearly all disliked the twins’ performance. This surprised me because I thought bloggers of all people would see past the hokey script written for the twins and have some comments on their obvious love for their parents and family, their willingness to campaign, their lack of polish being an asset, etc. So they’re not natural comedians, but they’ve got enough gumption to face a crowd and live television and do pretty well. As for more ’seriousness in these serious times’, that’s for the professionals, or the oh-so-earnest-Democrats. We got a look at the twins, and that’s that.

Podium speeches by the wife and kids are what we get when the campaign process has become less smoke-filled back room and more popularity contest.

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:24 am 65. John Lynch:

Roger

Some of the pundits, I think it was MSNBC, had a brief comment about Arnold’s speech. They segued into a discussion of people, personalities, and policies that are bigger than traditional parties (Dem, Repub.)

I was intrigued by this thought. It seems to have some validity. The traditional party delineations are too confining for some of these things.

It may be a Repub Convention, but there are a variety of ideas and policies that hold greater validity than the party. The party is currently supporting them, either in platform, or in person, but you get the feeling that the party’s endorsement is not completely relevant. The idea, or person, or policy, is going forward with or without.

Is this something you can get a feel for there, or is this too abstract to actually see on the floor?

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:27 am 66. Knucklehead:

Hmmm… since we’ve spent some time and effort recently arguing over legalisms and traditionalisms and, I assert, where they meet and diverge, (and, of course, Ahnald) I’d be interested in what folks think about the suggestion of a constitutional amendment to change the requirement that a president be a natural born citizen to something like naturalized for 25 years.

Personally, I’m agin it, but I’m just a hopeless and hidebound traditionalist. Without going down my normal never ending diatribe, I’ll just state my druthers as being that presidents be at least “second generation” Americans.

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:28 am 67. Matt Evans:

I agree with many of the foregoing comments in re: Buchanan. Even as a fairly conservative and fairly religious person, Buchanan, Falwell, etc are not representative of the new Republican party. As noted, they’ve been mostly exiled, not because conservatives don’t believe religious values still have a place in government but because the extremism by Buchanan and Co. alienate many many voters. The majority of arguments I have with moderates and liberals about the makeup of the GOP typically end up in “its a bunch of religious freaks, look at Buchanan, look at Falwell”. Frankly, the GOP needs to appeal to moderate voters in order to win elections and Buchanan has the same affect on many moderates and liberals that Mike-AL Moore has on conservatives.

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:31 am 68. Eric Deamer:

On the Great Bush Twins debate

My totally non-scientific, anecdotal evidence suggests that all those who are in any way closer to their age: myself, my girlfriend, Jonah Goldberg, Kathryn Jean Lopez, Karol Sheinin, and many others who are gen-X or gen-Y, found them to be awful and cringe-inducing.

Whereas all those who found them to be charming, winsome, “real”, “like normal 22-year olds” etc., such as: Gerard Van der Leun, Catherine above, Ann Althouse etc. etc. are roughly the age of people who might likely have daughters that age. (Roger is of course an exception to this rule.)

If there’s any truth to the above observation (and I have no idea if there really is) what does that say exactly? Do middle-aged people have a really skewed idea of what young people are like? Do they hold them to a depressingly low standard?

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:32 am 69. Knucklehead:

Hmmm… we’ve had twin airline bombings in Russia, twin bus bombings in Israel, the murder of 16? hostages, and now a new hostage situation in Russia.

Do the Dems really want to return to treating this sort of thing as an international law-enforcement matter or go off on some fevered and futile hunt for someone to negotiate with and something to negotiate about, or do they want to fight against the people who blieve such things are valid tactics?

Have the tinfoil hat crowd yet speculated that the events in Israel are the work of Mossad for the purpose of helping Their BushPuppet get re-elected and/or Putin trying to do the Bushitler a favor?

Terrorism needs to be confronted, relentlessly, with or without the support of John Kerry, or the US Democratic Party, or the UN, or France. Lead, follow, get out of the way, or get stomped – those are the options I see as valid.

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:38 am 70. Knucklehead:

Eric Deamer,

I think you’re correct in your Age Dynamic Re The Bush Twins assesmment. There’s an exception, but I’ll come back to that.

Those of us, ummm…., mature enough to have daughters that age are somewhat prone to look at them and see them as fairly typical of the age group. Not the brightest bulbs on the tree but well within normal ranges for decent kids. Additionally we know full well that not all that many 22 year olds could have stood up in front of a packed MSG crowd and gotten 2 words out of their mouths – cringe inducing or otherwise. From us they would typically get a “passing grade” – they’d be welcome in our homes as friends of our own brats and they’d almost certainly make us laugh here and there rather than cringe.

The 30-something crowd is not far enough removed from that age to make a reasonable assessment. They may, or may falsely remember themselves, as much more mature and capable. Of course few, if any, had to face being POTUS’s brats and doing a schtick of any sort on national TV at MSG. They aren’t willing to give them a pass for simply not dropping dead of stage fright and they tend to think of them in terms of whether they’d be willing to date them or have them as friends if only they were, maybe, a bit older.

We see them as kids, they see them as something more like contemporaries. We judge kids much less harshly than we do our contemporaries.

A little further removed from the “near contemporaries” age range is the folks old enough to have kids somewhere around half The Twins age. That age group probably splits roughly down the middle with some figuring they’ll be happy if their own turn out similarly OK and the other half still harboring some Delusions of Offspring Granduer where Their Brats would surely have presented themselves as the Toni Blair Twins of Young Adult National COnvention Presentations.

I mentioned an exception to this. We had someone in this or a nearby thread who, I think, illustrates the point. This group I’ll describe as the Aristocrats Who Think They are Meritocrats But Base Their Entire Measure of Meritocratic Worthiness on SAT Scores and Selectivity of College Acceptances. They’ll mature far enough to add GPA into that and, maybe, Degree Snobbery, but no further. This group will belittle the Bush Twins.

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:55 am 71. Knucklehead:

I’ll hope y’all will forgive me for blathering out a couple personal anecdotes here, but they were brought to mind by the Bush Twins at the RNC at The Garden portion of this thread.

The first is My Favorite Memory about Stage Fright. Once upon a time My Brats did a couple years of childrens theater. One of the productions (using the term loosely) they did was Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. They were dwarves. The “theater company”, such as it was, was having some difficulty staffing the show at one point and my Better Two-Thirds conned a friend’s brat into taking a dwarf part. (I had the distinct and very amusing pleasure of being back-stage through all of this.)

Everything went just dandy through rehearsals but eventually it came time for the friend’s brat to actually go out and perform before a real audience. Well, the Poor Little Tyke (5 or 6 yrs old, maybe 7) was siezed by unbearable stage fright and, no kidding, planted feet and arms sqaurely against a door jam, tears streaming down her little face, and shouting “I don’t want to be a dork!” (for those who missed the punchline, the kid thought the name of the play was Snow White and the Seven Dorks). I guess if you gotta ’splain it, it wasn’t all that funny. Sorry.)

Anecdote Two happened last evening. My Baby is now a college frosh. She’s long past any significant issues with stage fright. A required frosh course for her is Public Speaking. She had the first class in that yesterday. Since I was speaking to her last evening I naturally asked how she like the class and was surprised to hear a tone of perturbence coming from her. It seems the prof had told those in the class who felt nervous about the idea of public speaking to raise their hands. According to My Baby, most raised their hands but a few, her included, didn’t. The prof apparently promptly set about accusing those who didn’t raise their hands of being “cowards” who were afraid to admit their anxiety. My Baby apparently got her back up about this and wound up in mild catfight with the prof insisting that it had nothing to do with cowardice because she wasn’t the least bit nervous about public speaking (she’s done a fair bit of it) and the prof insisting that everyone was nervous about it and, therefore, she must simply be afraid to admit to anxiety. She’s was in quite a little snit about it. Made me laugh since now I know she’ll have to work that much harder to recover the 5 points she surely lost by daring to disagree with an Education Professional

Sep 1, 2004 - 9:20 am 72. Fresh Air:

Knuckle–

Good to get off that other thread, eh? Finally found some peace and quiet out on Roger’s deck. (BTW, have Charlie and John Moore chosen their seconds yet? I heard it’s going to be RPGs at 100 meters.)

For those of us who have been interviewed on the air with a couple-hundred thousand people tuning in, it is a truly terrifying experience. I know the Bush twins are no longer strangers to the klieg lights, but it would scare the jezebels out of me.

Oh, and Knuckle? One other thing: It’s not Bushitler. It’s Bu$hitler.

Sep 1, 2004 - 9:42 am 73. Knucklehead:

Fresh Air,

I thought they’d settled on RPGs at 100 meters also, but now I heard that Charlie’s waffling and wants Skilsaws hand-to-hand. John’s second headed for the hills as soon as he heard RPGs and Charlie’s bolted when he heard Skilsaws. I introduced them to one of those Lippizaner guys in the Napolean hats who said he just loves duels and would second whomever, but now their fighting over who gets stuck with a Frog Lookin’ Dude on a White Horse. They’ll work it out somehow, but I ain’t investing any of my single-malt to calm them down.

Thanks for the correction re: Bu$hitler.

Did Witchita get permission yet from the neighbor to anchor the trapeeze guide wires in his driveway? I told him that to ask permission is too seek denial but he’s on that damned libertarian kick again and thinks everybody can work everything out. I say skip the silly middle-ground and just do Anarchy on Demand, but he’s been reading about Contractarianism so there’s no tellin’ him nuttin’ no more. We didn’t budget for driveway repairs for neighbors and I don’t see how he’s gonna negotiate his way around that.

Sep 1, 2004 - 9:59 am 74. Old Dad:

Dear Eric:

As an Old Dad, I can tell you that it’s not that we disrespect the younger generation, far from it. It’s just that we have much more experience with being ridiculous, and, thus, are more tolerant.

Find a picture, any picture of 20 somethings circa 1973. Plaid baggies, platform shoes, four inch wide belts, six inch wide ties, awful fumanchus, and never let it be forgotten, we made disco popular.

See what I mean?

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:38 am 75. Knucklehead:

Old Dad,

Speak for yourself. I never wore a 6 inch wide tie with plaid baggies. A fringed suede vest, maybe, but no ties.

(BTW, you had to go there, dincha!)

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:46 am 76. Lonewacko:

While Arnold was off in NYC telling his immigrant’s tale and trying to make the GOP look as compassionate as possible, some immigrants to California were giving him a headache.

From 8/25: [CA State Sen. Gil Cedillo] hopes to rally support today with a new plan to give driving privileges to illegal residents… A bold, visible mark [on the driver's licenses to identify the holder as an illegal alien] would be nothing more than a scarlet letter that invites discrimination, much like the Star of David on Jews in Nazi Europe, Cedillo maintained.

Cedillo’s bill passed and now awaits Arnold’s veto.

One might ask, if immigrants are so good, how could they say such bad things about Arnold? Shouldn’t the GOP have made the distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration, rather than attempting to portray all immigration as good?

And, shouldn’t Arnold partially blame George Bush for allowing so many illegal aliens to come into California and thereby increasing Gil Cedillo’s power?

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:47 am 77. Catherine:

Darleen

Laura is a class act. She’s the teacher you meet at back-to-school night and start thanking God she’s at the school for your kid and would wish your kid could have her through college!

I love this description!

Knucklehead

I was reading through your comment, which I hadn’t recognized as being from you (different subject matter than usual? I don’t know) and I kept thinking, “Wow, what a great comment!” and “Boy, I’m glad this guy has joined the gang!”

Then it was you!

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:56 am 78. jerry:

Wacko:

The radical left never misses an attempt to degrade the Holocaust.

I think that Arnold will not surrender to those who wish to confuse the status of illegal and legal aliens. Arnold did not sneak into the US. He applied as was accepted under the immigration laws. Someone who is in the country illegally has no right other then due process for his deportation.

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:58 am 79. Fresh Air:

Knuckle–

Skilsaws hand-to-hand? Yikes!

It occurs to me the San Juan River is roughly between the two of them. Maybe Sage 5-weights and black wooly buggers at 100 feet below the dam? First one to slip and fall into the 42-degree water loses.

I don’t know what’s up with Wichita. Every time I think he’s settled down, he goes and gets all jumpy again. Must be that Mid-Plains light and space that really put the zap on his head.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:02 am 80. Catherine:

data point

I’ve mentioned many, many times that I am a “lifelong Democrat voting for Bush.”

I’ve also mentioned, not quite as many times, that my reactions & emotions are Deeply Mainstream.

i.e., if I am having an reaction or emotion, five billion other people are having the exact same reaction or emotion at the exact same time. I am a Walking Cliche.

My position since 9-11 has been, OK, I’m done with the Democrats. Enough!

But I won’t become a Republican.

I’m an Independent.

That’s been my position.

Last night, watching the entire evening, I was thinking, Hey! I like these people! They’re fun! I like the way they think!

Maybe I should join the Republican Party!

I’m serious.

I was thinking all those things, exclamation marks included.

This is why, I assume, it’s good to have the giggling twins on stage giving their stupid speech; why it’s good to have Arnold unselfconsciously saying he became a Republican because Richard Nixon wasn’t a socialist; why it’s good to have Laura Bush doing anything she does, any time, any place.

As polarized as the country seems now to be, as few genuine undecideds as there are, Rove & c. are looking to the future as well as to this election. They are trying to build the party.

People like me are ripe for the recruiting, and last night went a long way towards making the sale. Rove doesn’t need to persuade me to vote for Bush; I’m already doing that. I’ve contributed to the campaign.

But it probably is a good idea to persuade me to begin thinking of myself as a Republican, for fundraising reasons if nothing else.

You probably don’t recruit people like me by being All War All The Time. So I think Roger’s objection that the twins are giggly-in-a-time-of-war is almost certainly wrong when it comes to the objective of bringing new people into the “Big Tent.”

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:08 am 81. MeTooThen:

All,

Good thread.

I agree with Jamie Irons when he talks about the value and attractiveness of authenticity.

Laura Bush seems like a self-aware person, confident in who she is, also in what she believes, and is able to bring that to her relationships.

I thought the part of her speech that was most compelling was when she talked about witnessing her husband during troubled and difficult times. Bearing witness can be difficult. She comes off as strong, loving, empathetic, and quite capable of having lasting and meaningful connection to her husband.

Amidst the hyperbole and invective, we lose sight of the fact that these people, are human, and how terribly difficult it must be to live the way they do. And no, I am not talking about wealth, or power, I am talking about scrutiny, lack of privacy, and the stress they must be under. This is not, “I feel sorry for the poor, pitiful Celebrities”, but rather, an awareness of the solemn and difficult task it must be to be the Commander in Chief, leader of the Free World, and responsible for the protection of military and civilian alike.

If the Twins read off policy talking points, or seemed in any way partisan, that would have been creepy. I thought they were appealing as young, flirty, provocative, irresponsible 22 year olds.

(BTW) I only listened to them on the radio, I don’t have a TV, being a curmudgeon and all.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:10 am 82. Knucklehead:

Was Arnold in NYC on 8/25? Let’s assume he wasn’t in CA. So, what’s the nature of your complaint here? Are you suggesting that if the CA Governor would have been “in town” he coulda-shoulda-woulda prevented the CA legislature from passing a bill and sending it to the Governor for signature or veto? By what method? Perhaps Jackbooted Brownshirts might have been employed.

nothing more than a scarlet letter that invites discrimination, much like the Star of David on Jews in Nazi Europe, Cedillo maintained.

Nuttin’ like hyperbole during campaign season! Is someone suggesting that illegal immigrants wear this “scarlet letter” or “Star of David” attached to their foreheads or clothing?

Shouldn’t the GOP have made the distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration, rather than attempting to portray all immigration as good?

Could you enlighten me? When has the GOP failed to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration? And how does the GOP portray all immigration as good? Help me out here.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:11 am 83. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

Then it was you!

Believe me, from the bottom of my heart, the last thing I wanted was to bring you such profound disappointment.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:21 am 84. Fresh Air:

Catherine–

About us Republicans:

About 15 years ago there was an uprising in India where several hundred beturbaned Sikhs went on a rampage with their ceremonial, but very sharp, swords. A bunch of innocent people were killed. I don’t remember what they were upset about exactly. But I remember asking an Indian friend of mine, a Sikh named Sonu, to explain it to me.

I said, “Sonu, what’s the deal with these guys? Are they crazy or what?”

And he said, “No, just a little agitated. Sikhs aren’t crazy. We’re actually a good bunch of fellas once you get to know us.”

Just watch out if we get angry.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:22 am 85. Lola:

Catherine

But it probably is a good idea to persuade me to begin thinking of myself as a Republican, for fundraising reasons if nothing else.

You raise a very good point. By the way, you do have a website or blog, don’t you? When I click on your name, it just takes me to http://www.optline.net. It looks like your email address is being converted into a website.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:22 am 86. Bostonian:

Hey everyone, I have a question, esp. for any MA residents.

A friend of mine here in Boston says that the major TV networks did not cover the DNC at all–she said it was on cable only. I thought the major broadcast stations were going to cover the DNC and the RNC–three hours each–but I never actually checked. Is she right?

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:29 am 87. Knucklehead:

MeTooThen,

Thanks for making those points. Imagine what any of us would feel like to have our 22 year old daughter(s) subject to this level of scrutiny and criticism based upon a few minutes of throw away silliness in front of an audience. I remember once watching the face of father who was hearing the evaluation that his young daughter “should think about taking up another sport because she has no aptitude for this one and we are reaching the level where I am afraid for her safety.”

It would be nice if involving yutes this young was not somehow expected and demanded.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:30 am 88. MeTooThen:

All,

Let me add this with regard to Arnold.

I thought his speech was especially powerful. Again, I only heard it on the radio, so I have no idea how it came off visually.

He linked several important themes in an amazing way.

Arnold recounts his penniless but hopeful escape from the Boot of Soviet Socialism and then embraces Republicanism through listening to Nixon talk about free-enterprise and limited government in comparison to Humphrey’s Liberalism come Socialism.

He gives thanks to the United States for all he has, and reminds those still in Eastern Europe and elsewhere that not for the United States they would still be under the Soviet Boot, an homage to Reagan.

Nice linkage of past to present, Peace through Strength, Prosperity through Individual Enterprise, Military Service as Noble, the United States as the vanguard for Democracy, not the UN…the list goes on and on.

Full Disclosure: I voted for Gray Davis before I voted against him, and would have voted to remove him, but was out of the country. As a registered voter in California, I would vote for Arnold if he ran again for Gov.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:37 am 89. Old Dad:

Dear Knuckle:

And let’s not forget pastel polyester leisure suits. Not that I ever owned one.

And we thought nothing could be worse than Watergate. Can you say Jimmy Carter?

Sorry, didn’t really mean to ruin your afternoon.

A major difference between the Bush twins and me–besides the fact that they are young attractive women and related to the President, and I’m a crusty old fart–is that none of the incredibly ridiculous things that I did were caught on tape.

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:54 am 90. Knucklehead:

…none of the incredibly ridiculous things that I did were caught on tape.

I escaped prosecution also. Isn’t the statute of limitations a wonderful thing?

Sep 1, 2004 - 11:58 am 91. JeremyR:

They seemed like very normal 22 year girls, for better or for worse.

For better, I think. They don’t have the perpetual sneer on their faces like Kerry’s daughters do, looking down on everyone.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:11 pm 92. Catherine:

Eric Deamer–hi!

Haven’t seen you around here for awhile (though maybe I missed something).

The whole trotting the family out thing is silly when either party does it. AS’s speech should have been at the end, as it was the only substantive one. With the lame personal color speeches, the whole evening was a wash, and I felt silly watching some of that stuff.

OK, this confirms it.

I had been assuming from your name–Eric–that you were a guy.

Now I’m positive.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:11 pm 93. Catherine:

Eric Deamer–hi!

Haven’t seen you around here for awhile (though maybe I missed something).

The whole trotting the family out thing is silly when either party does it. AS’s speech should have been at the end, as it was the only substantive one. With the lame personal color speeches, the whole evening was a wash, and I felt silly watching some of that stuff.

OK, this confirms it.

I had been assuming from your name–Eric–that you were a guy.

Now I’m positive.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:11 pm 94. Catherine:

Hey—-that double-post wasn’t my fault.

Damn TypeKey!

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:12 pm 95. Catherine:

lindenen

just because you’re a giddy airhead doesn’t mean you might not also be a reasonably intelligent person with a 4.0 gpa.

OK, someone should put that on a bumper sticker.

Or a greeting card.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:14 pm 96. Catherine:

Mr. Vee

Wow!

First time out of the gate, and a terrific comment.

Except, of course, for the last paragraph on Laura & the girls, which is deeply wrong and misguided.

I’m loving the Huge Gaping Sex Difference in this thread.

Normally I’m slightly dismissive of SEX DIFFERENCES, if only because I’ve heard WAY too much about them due to watching WAY TOO MANY episodes of ROSEANNE.

No more.

From now on my attitude is:

Men Are From Some Place.

Women Are From Some Place Else.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:20 pm 97. Catherine:

Knucklehead

If anyone’s got Section P handy, have a look at Nagourney on P8.

I’m sorry.

I don’t believe I will be able to do that.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:22 pm 98. Catherine:

Richard McEnroe

This is classic vaudeville strategy. You open with a few strong acts to nail the audience in their seats, then a kid act, then an animal act (substitute a few close-ups of Michael Moore), then the ventriloquist and his dummy

OK, that’s just effing brilliant.

And true.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:23 pm 99. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

I’m loving the Huge Gaping Sex Difference in this thread.

You’re not getting away with hit and run, Young Lady. You just sit yourself down right this minute and tell us what the devil you’re talking about with the Viva Le Gaping Difference stuff.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:24 pm 100. Catherine:

David Thomsom

The only thing that truly matters are their impact on the swing voters. Will the Republican convention push up the President BushÔøΩs poll numbers by at least another 5-6 points?

My understanding, based on interviews with Mathew Dowd, is that the Bush campaign thinks there are at most 5-6% of voters who are genuinely undecided; I believe he said the figure Bush could reasonably expect to pick up is 3% at most.

As well, apparently all undecideds are moderates or conservatives. There are no undecided liberals.

I don’t know what exactly the convention is aimed at, whether to pull in that tiny number of undecideds or to build towards the future, but their main strategy in terms of winning this election is to turn out the evangelical vote through direct, personal contact.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:28 pm 101. Charlie (Colorado):

I have to say I found the twins a riot, as in a riot of silliness and evidence that in fact you don’t have to work hard in life to do well. to watch the daughters of a mulitmillionaire only be able to laugh as giddy teenagers only reminded me that they could barely get into college and were clearly not, despite the best possible benefits of unearned wealth and connections, able to make it into a university that was competitive. The poor dears.

That’s right, neither Yale nor UT Austin is competetive. After all, Yale’s down to number 3 nationwide now.

Another goddamn moron.

Does someone queue up one idiotic troll for us every couple of days, is that it?

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:38 pm 102. Catherine:

Erik

I thought Arnolds speech was very powerful. Anyone that has lived close to socialism can identify with his story about living close to the Soviet Union, being afraid to be taken away at a whim

Absolutely. I found the car story riveting, and moving.

I also loved the Nixon story.

It reminded me of a musical playing in England called RAT PACK, which is about Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin & Sammy Davis Jr.

The musical is so loving towards America it could have been written by Ronald Reagan himself.

But what was interesting about the America-love in the play was that, being the work of a playwright who is not himself American, it extended to elements of the U.S. experience no American would ever smile about.

The play was affectionate and indulgent towards the Mafia, for instance, which the playwright seemed to think of as a cute organization of gruff Italian-American men speaking in cute New Jersey accents.

And it included an affectionate, indulgent joke about the Ku Klux Klan!

Dean Martin tells the joke.

He says, “So I asked Sammy–Sammy, what do you do when you’re driving through Mississippi and the Ku Klux Klan is chasing you and they’re going 60? And Sammy says to me, ‘I go 70!’”

YIKES!

No American would ever, ever, ever make a cute joke about the Ku Klux Klan chasing a black man through Mississippi. Nor should they. The Ku Klux Klan will never be a subject of light humor in America.

But in RAT PACK everything about America is a cause for benign indulgence and/or outright affection.

That was Arnold and Nixon.

No American would say, “I became a Republican because of Richard M. Nixon” even if it were true.

But Arnold can say it, and coming from Arnold that story has the innocence of a newcomer to a happy land.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:44 pm 103. Charlie (Colorado):

I thought they’d settled on RPGs at 100 meters also, but now I heard that Charlie’s waffling and wants Skilsaws hand-to-hand. John’s second headed for the hills as soon as he heard RPGs and Charlie’s bolted when he heard Skilsaws. I introduced them to one of those Lippizaner guys in the Napolean hats who said he just loves duels and would second whomever, but now their fighting over who gets stuck with a Frog Lookin’ Dude on a White Horse. They’ll work it out somehow, but I ain’t investing any of my single-malt to calm them down.

Now, now. I don’t drink.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:45 pm 104. Charlie (Colorado):

One might ask, if immigrants are so good, how could they say such bad things about Arnold? Shouldn’t the GOP have made the distinction between legal immigration and illegal immigration, rather than attempting to portray all immigration as good?

Only if they believe it. There’s a pretty significant subset, like me but unlike Tom Tancredo and Michelle Malkin (which actually kinda freaks me out, honestly) who think that anyone who makes the effort to come here deserves to be here.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:48 pm 105. ed:

Hmmm.

1. Bush twins.

They weren’t supposed to be good at this. That’s the point. They’re flightly, giggling young women more interested just about anything other than poltics. It’s reminder that Bush might be President, but he’s still got the same aggravation as a father of two young daughters. Even with the Secret Service to help.

Their role was to be themselves. To charm, if possible. If they didn’t charm, then they reminded people that Bush is a father with a bucketfull of antacids like the father of every other daughter out there.

2. Laura Bush.

Her role was simple and she did it well. She is the representation of the dedicated housewife to the nation. That’s easy for her because she largely is a housewife by nature. Or at least she seems so. Frankly after the varied machinations of Hillary, Laura was a very welcome relief.

3. Arnold.

Economic girly men? Richard Nixon?

Kick ass!

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:53 pm 106. ed:

Hmmm.

“Only if they believe it. There’s a pretty significant subset, like me but unlike Tom Tancredo and Michelle Malkin (which actually kinda freaks me out, honestly) who think that anyone who makes the effort to come here deserves to be here.”

Actually I’m a naturalized citizen from South Korea and I’m utterly opposed to all illegal immigration. You do NOT want to know what my solution is to illegal immigration.

Needless to say it would get me denounced by the ACLU.

Sep 1, 2004 - 12:54 pm 107. ed:

Hmmmm.

“Does someone queue up one idiotic troll for us every couple of days, is that it?”

Yup. We need that you know.

We need people, who’ve never graduated from Harvard’s MBA program, to call Bush, who did graduate, a moron.

It’s even better when they hold up a politician or celebrity as a representative of the acceptable intellgensia, and it turns out that person hasn’t ever graduated high school let alone college.

Gives me a good laugh.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:00 pm 108. TedM:

The thing I like about this thread is that most of agree on reelecting GWB because of the issue of the Islamic Fanatic War against the Infidels and yet this are a variety of opinions on the twins and Arnold and Laura.

Check into any liberal site and see how they gets their backs up against the wall and defend anything and everything about JK. Even when they privately disagree, they make the spinguments (new word) for him. To their great shame, they have boxed themselves into an appeasement, shameful position purely out of Bush hatred.

I recently reread the history of the 1930’s. Winston’s books and Shirer’s. The Democratic spinmeisters are echoing almost verbatim the disgraceful, pacifist memes of the great appeasers of pre WWII Europe.And we all know how that played out. The Old Europeans are playing the same game they played in the 30s.

Rudy touched on that. GWB needs to give the country and the world a lesson in history

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:01 pm 109. Catherine:

Eric Deamer

Do middle-aged people have a really skewed idea of what young people are like

Most middle-aged people probably have a grimly realistic idea of what they themselves were like at that age.

Which a number of us seem to suspect may have been much, much worse.

More seriously–and I’m glad you brought this up, because otherwise I wouldn’t have thought of it–I think what you’re probably seeing among middle-aged commenters here is some kind of generalized rooting-for-the-young.

It hadn’t occurred to me that I’d gotten old enough to be actively rooting for the generations coming up behind me, but obviously I have.

Does anyone around here remember Erik Erikson’s developmental sequence for adults?

I should go back and re-read the book. CHILDHOOD AND SOCIETY, right?

Erikson found that when people got old (I’M NOT OLD! NOT YET, ANYWAY) they entered a stage he called, as I remember, “generativity versus despair.”

That stage had to do with an investment in the future of your country and/or your community, which meant an investment in young people. People who moved into “generativity” typically became mentors, for instance.

I wouldn’t take the-twins-are-normal comments personally–or, rather, I would take them personally, but I would understand them differently.

I’m sure no one here means to say that all 21 year olds are ditzy president’s daughters; I certainly don’t. (And in fact, I don’t think Barbara and Jenna are ditzy. After reading the VOGUE profile of the two of them, I think they’re smart and idealistic in exactly the way I hope most people will be smart and idealistic.)

I’d put money on it people here are expressing an active investment in their generation, part of which entails a willingness to give very young people–and 22 is very young, I don’t care how young people used to get married and have babies back in 1932–wide lattitude to continue growing and gaining strength and gaining ground before the world starts slamming them for giving a stupid speech.

Speaking as a person who once gave a stupid speech herself, at age 17.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:06 pm 110. Catherine:

Fresh Air & Knucklehead

And he said, “No, just a little agitated. Sikhs aren’t crazy. We’re actually a good bunch of fellas once you get to know us.”

Just watch out if we get angry.

Uh . . . I think this would identify the aforementioned Huge Gaping Sex Difference.

Also, this is a pretty good example of the exact, precise, pitch-perfect way not to recruit a bunch of center-right soccer moms to the aforementioned Big Tent.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:14 pm 111. Ole Eichhorn:

I’m an American citizen with Dutch parents. I’m also a Calfornian who voted to recall Davis and for Arnold to replace him. So far Arnold has done a nice job of draining the fiscal swamp in California, and I’m really pleased to have him as my Governor. He also represents my views as a moderate Republican (conservative on defense and fiscal policy, liberal on social policy).

I’ve think highly of Arnold and liked his speech very much. Yeah, we don’t have to agree with Bush on everything to vote for him over Kerry. That was his key point, and he made it well.

I bet his message helps Bush with undecided voters more than Giuliani, who gave a great speech but one which would appeal most strongly to those who already support Bush.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:14 pm 112. Catherine:

Old Dad

none of the incredibly ridiculous things that I did were caught on tape

Hear, hear.

(It is “hear, hear,” right? Not here, here. Somebody posted “here, here” on a blog the other day and I’ve been in suspense ever since.)

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:15 pm 113. Catherine:

Spelling suspense, I mean.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:16 pm 114. Catherine:

TedM

Check into any liberal site and see how they gets their backs up against the wall and defend anything and everything about JK.

Really?

That seems bizarre.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:21 pm 115. Knucklehead:

Ed,

She is the representation of the dedicated housewife to the nation.

What were you thinking?!?!? Been nice knowin’ ya, but if’n I were you I’d be high-tailin’ it outta here before the ladies get back.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:23 pm 116. Fresh Air:

Catherine–

Also, this is a pretty good example of the exact, precise, pitch-perfect way not to recruit a bunch of center-right soccer moms to the aforementioned Big Tent.

Sorry, forgot to put my tag in place. Anyway, I’ve never actually seen a Republican disembowel anyone. Most of us prefer ballistic weapons. Is that pitch-perfect enough?

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:26 pm 117. Fresh Air:

That should read “sarcasm” tag. I think the computer actually tried to read it as HTML. Next thing you know Roger’s server will be inserting scare quotes in my text.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:31 pm 118. Catherine:

Fresh Air

Hmm. We’re having a Tone Conveyance Problem here.

I was joking!

I thought the Sikh story was hilarious!

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:36 pm 119. Erik:

Catherine,

In classical rethoric there’s even a name for it. It’s who you are that determine what you can say, and how you can say it.

(OT: that’s the reason Kerry, in my opinion, is making a huge mistake attacking the SVFT so agressively, he just looks like a bully beating on the little guy. Dean did the same mistake yelling at that old man at a meeting.)

It doesn’t actually matter *who* you are, but who you’re *percieved* to be. Arnold tells the story as an ordinary immigrant, not knowing anything about american politics, and not recognizing anyone. So he just listened to what was said, and made his mind up based on the experiences he had, that made him come to the country in the first place. Honest, straightforward, and anyone that’s been there identifies.

It’s a very basic speech, and his arguments are very convincing.

I think it’s telling that my local media hardly mentions the speech at all. They just mention that “The Terminator” held a speech supporting GWB, and then describe all differences of opinion between AS and GWB, implying that AS really isn’t a true republican at all, the republicans just managed to get him…

That’s how good the speech was..

Your story also made me remember Colin Powell telling a story once on (I think) 60minutes. This was a while back, so the details are a bit fuzzy, but I remember the whole of it well:

This was when Powell was a young officer, stationed somewhere in the south. The time was around the Civil liberties movement (”Missisippi burning”). He was late going back to his post one night, and was speeding through the forrest, when he ran into a police checkpoint, stopping every car and handing out leaflets in support of . Powell has a rusty old car, expired plates, is speeding, in the deep south, with a bumpersticker supporting the “other candidate” (as Powell put it).

The sheriff walks up to his car, looks at the car, the expired plates, the bumper sticker, looks into the car and sees this young african-american army officer..

Then the sheriff just shakes his head, looks at Powell and says “son, you’re just too stupid to be down here. Go on and be on your way now.”

When Powell told it, I thought it was funny.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:37 pm 120. Catherine:

Fresh Air

Next thing you know Roger’s server will be inserting scare quotes in my text

Yeah, well, it’s already been doing that to me, for weeks.

I don’t think TypeKey likes Macs.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:38 pm 121. Catherine:

housewife to the nation!

OK, I have a housewife-to-the-nation story!

The whole, entire time I was growing up, my mom refused to ever, ever, ever describe herself as a “housewife.”

“I am a homemaker, not a housewife,” she’d say firmly. Firmly as in brooking no dissent. “I’m not married to a house.”

I’m being flippant, but she was right, and the loss of respect for homemaking is one of the things I hold against the feminist movement.

My mother was making a home,; it was an important job, a serious job, and she did it well.

Then feminism came along and reduced homemaking to the status of maid or toilet attendant.

AND I don’t say this to denigrate maids and toilet attendants or anyone else who works in what we consider a low-status occupation. All work has value and moral worth.

But status is part of all human and animal life, and feminism radically stripped away the status homemakers once held in our society.

I say this as a working mother and a mostly-former feminist.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:49 pm 122. Fresh Air:

Catherine–

Hmm. We’re having a Tone Conveyance Problem here.

Damnit Roger! When are you going to enable those “smilie” and “frownie” icons?

I don’t think TypeKey likes Macs.

It doesn’t like my Mac either. Must have something against Steve Jobs. Then again that would make sense given that Al Gore’s on the board of Apple now.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:52 pm 123. Catherine:

Erik

What an incredible story!

Thank you so much for telling it.

BTW, what is the term in rhetoric for the who-says-it principle.

I taught Freshman Rhetoric at Iowa years back, and never learned that term——

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:53 pm 124. Knucklehead:

Erik,

Powell does an excellent job as a speaker. If you ever get the chance to attend one of his talks, grab it.

He knows how to work an audience and tells some very humorous stories about real experiences. He has one about “speed of information moving on the network” that is based up the “network”, when he was growing up in the Bronx, of “aunts in fourth floor windows”. Any kid who got in trouble couldn’t run home fast enough to be there before the network of aunts delivered the info to his mom who would be waiting to administer justice.

His story about being Knighted by the Queen is a classic, loved hearing him tell it. Talk about authenticity.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:55 pm 125. Catherine:

OK, well I came upstairs to find out the correct spelling of Pekingese, and now it’s . . . 4:55 pm.

ERIC DEAMER THIS IS WHY I PERSONALLY WILL NEVER UTTER ONE SINGLE WORD AGAINST ANYONE YOUNGER THAN 30.

I have the self-discipline of a person who is about 10.

Sep 1, 2004 - 1:55 pm 126. Charlie (Colorado):

Hey, I’m not sure which way the gender dichotomy is supposed to go, but I really liked the Jenna-and-Babs show last night.

Jenna’s hot.

Just by the way.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:12 pm 127. Erik:

Catherine,

I would have used it if I could remember…

I seem to recall the phrase was “loci communes”, but that is latin for “place” rather than “who”, so I’m not sure that’s totally correct.

I had this great book on “practical rethoric” that uses classical rethoric, and then shows practical examples, using current events, like Clintons “I did not have sex” and Nixons “checkers”.

The professor that wrote it is a great fan of Cicero, and uses him extensively.

The book also shows the five parts of a speech, and how important it is to do them in the right order, with examples from real life.

It also covers what the author thinks is “cheats that probably work” and “cheats that shouldn’t work”. Fascinating read, and it’s obvious when you hear them once you know them.

Unfortunally, someone lent that book of me, and I havent seen it since, I need to buy a new copy of it.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:29 pm 128. Catherine:

Charlie

Hey, I’m not sure which way the gender dichotomy is supposed to go,

Roughly,

Women: In Favor & Charmed

Men: No Giggling in Times of War

. . . .

I for one am Quite Sure there is also a substantial Jenna’s-hot category amongst the men, but this remains unspoken.

Until now.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:32 pm 129. Catherine:

Erik

The book is actually called “Practical Rhetoric,” right?

There’s someone else who posts here & likes that book (unless it’s you–sorry if it is).

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:34 pm 130. Kevin P:

Roger:

You must be slipping! The poor quality of the trool that was sent on this thread seems to indicate that they are sending the minor leaguers to this site. A professional troll would never try the wealthy and privelged line about the Bush Twins because their man is so open to counter-attack. The Bush twins may be born of millionaires but the troll’s candidate had to marry into money. When he found out that wife #1 millions wasn’t going to cut it for a presidential run he dumped her a latched on to a billionaire

regarding the Bush is dumb meme. these are the same groups who called reagan stupid. When RR said that the Soviet Union’s economy would eventually collapse from it’s built in stupidity, the left trotted out Galbreath who stated in his wisdom that the Soviet economy was actually stronger then the US economy and to spend them into oblivion was a fools errand. When RR stated that if we challenged the soviets introduction of Mirvs into Europe with similar weapons pf our own the Kerry camp insisted that the nuclear freeze was the only way to respond and the MAD was sure to follow if we took that moronic Reagans advice. Well, the idiot Reagan was right and the brilliant Kerry and JKG were dead wrong. The troll’s seem to have short memories.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:36 pm 131. Charlie (Colorado):

Roughly,

Women: In Favor & Charmed

Men: No Giggling in Times of War

I guess I’m just one of the girls again.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:36 pm 132. Charlie (Colorado):

Me:

I guess I’m just one of the girls again.

Jenna’s hot.

Hmmm. I guess this means I’m a lesbian.

No wonder I’m in favor of gay marriage….

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:39 pm 133. Catherine:

Knucklehead:

As to Kerry’s campaign team shakeup… their gonna go really hardcore on the attack machine while leaving the whining segment in place. Yeah, that’ll work.

Since we’re on the Gender Thingie, let me just tell you, and I believe I speak for Every Woman Alive on this issue (Fresh Air–insert appropriate TypeKey-enabled satire icon here) Aggressive Whining is a No P**** Zone.

And while we’re on the subject, which, I grant you, we were not—–

What’s with the limp salutes????????

They’re disgusting!!!!!!!

I don’t want to see them any more!!!!!!

Stop!!!!!!

Please!!!!!

Isn’t there something in the McCain Feingold bill that makes these things illegal?

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:42 pm 134. Fresh Air:

Kevin P–

“…trotted out Galbreath…”

It’s actually spelled “Galbraith.”

Though I had a conservative economics professor who pronounced it “Gale-breath.” Sounded much better.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:43 pm 135. Catherine:

Charlie

Wait!

Charlie as in Charlie like the perfume?????

Charlie as in not-Charly-with-a-Y?

Good Lord.

This is even more shocking than finding out TmJUtah is not Tim J Utah.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:44 pm 136. Erik:

Knuckle,

Yes, I read his response to a question a while back about the US use of military power around the world.

His response was (in short) that over the years, the US has sent young men to help other countries many times, and the only land they ever asked for in return was enough to bury those that didn’t make it home.

That is a great response, it’s honest, straight from the heart, and everyone knows it’s true.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:45 pm 137. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

Thanks for the LOL re: the Limp Salutes. I loathe limp salutes. Either snap it off so it looks like a freakin’ salute or do the minimalist routine that suffices for gubmint work under limited conditions among those who “get it”. I can’t even tolerate limp salutes when I see them in movies. That limp wristed crap Kerry does is just about the prototypical Limp Salute – they just don’t get much worse than that.

BTW, I heard some talking head last night claim that Kerry held a substantial polling lead among female voters. Based on the “skeevey quotient” I mentioned above, I find that hard to believe. Has anyone seen any evidence that Kerry is preferred by the fair sex?

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:49 pm 138. Erik:

Catherine,

actually, the title of the book is “Praktisk retorik”.

It’s not available in english (I dont think), but translated it would be “Practical rethoric”. And yes, it’s probably me you’ve heard talking about it before.

I love it and consider it a must read, as well as being entertaining. I went thru lots of classes in Public speaking, rethoric and similar classes, (in two languages) and was a fairly good speaker before I ever saw the book, but the book still showed me things I had no idea about.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:51 pm 139. Erik:

Heh….

I found the book at Amazon…

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/glance/-/books/9146180281/202-3346772-0132630

Unfortunally, it seems to be out of print, and not available in english.

Sep 1, 2004 - 2:56 pm 140. Catherine:

Knucklehead

BTW, I heard some talking head last night claim that Kerry held a substantial polling lead among female voters

True, but women & young people are now moving to Bush, according to the latest ABC poll.

If Rick B or Samuel or the other polling guys (or polling gals whom I’ve mistakenly taken to be polling guys) are around, I’d love to hear what they make of the women’s vote this year.

I “get” why women reject Bush (I think) but I’m a little confused by the apparent volatility in their vote . . .

Charlie

Jenna is hot.

I like Barbara, too.

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:01 pm 141. Catherine:

Erik

Praktisk retorik: Med klassiska och moderna exempel††

Gˆran H‰gg

Wow.

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:02 pm 142. Erik:

Catherine,

I’ll translate the title for you:

“Practical rethoric: with classical and modern examples”

If I find it again in a bookstore, I’ll buy two and lock one in a safe

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:05 pm 143. Charlie (Colorado):

Catharine whichever-one-you-are:

No, I was being subtle again. I came down on the “female” side of the gender gap (I like Jenna and Barbara) but then I said “Jenna is hot”.

Thus, by implication, I’m a female who thinks Jenna is hot. Ergo a lesbian. Humor. Ar ar ar.

I am in reality, however, a middle aged guy with a beard.

Sep 1, 2004 - 3:56 pm 144. MeTooThen:

TedM,

I am now reading Churchill’s The Gathering Storm.

Wow.

It should be required reading for every student of History and every Politico.

The parallels between the appeasement of Germany and later the National Socialists, as well as the lack of military preparedness of the so-called Allied forces, with the attempt to appease today’s radicalized Islamists are astonishing.

Sep 1, 2004 - 4:01 pm 145. MeTooThen:

All,

More on The Gathering Storm:

Page 55 (from the 1st Edition), on Mein Kampf (bold emphasis mine):

“All was there–the programme of German resurrection; the techinique of party propoganda; the plan for combating Marxism; the concept of a national-Socialist State; the rightful position of Germany at the summit of the world. Here was the new Koran of faith and war: turgid, verbose, shapeless, but pregnant with its message.”

Wow.

Sep 1, 2004 - 4:08 pm 146. Knucklehead:

MeTooThen,

Appeasers never believe what their enemy tells them in plain language. Sad, isn’t it.

Sep 1, 2004 - 5:23 pm 147. Kevin P:

Fresh:

Thank you for the correction. If you have read my previous post’s you will find many spelling errors but I do like the reminders.I used to write for the high school and college newspapers but I stopped writing 20 years ago and the rust is showing. The blogs inspired me to begin again and just like my baseball hitting skills my age is showing. I am trying to avoid using spell check but some times I am too lazy to check the Dictionary. Thanks.

Sep 1, 2004 - 5:47 pm 148. richard mcenroe:

In honor of the shake-up in the Kerry campaign, I’ll be premiering two new signs at our Friday counterprotest…

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:04 pm 149. Katherine:

Richard,

Thatís wicked.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:11 pm 150. Knucklehead:

I’m gonna apologize in a advance for the language, but I just watched Zell Miller’s speech at the RNC and all I can say is Holy Shit! THAT was awesome.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:24 pm 151. TmjUtah:

Knucklehead -

Concur. Everybody go to Allah’s comments for the in depth analysis.

I especially like the Joe R. comment beginning with “If this is the toned down version…”

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:33 pm 152. frendlydude2k:

“nothing angers this marine more than…” regarding liberation\occupation put him over the top. zell helped bush more than rudy, i think.

was he too angry? not to me.

Sep 1, 2004 - 7:56 pm 153. Katherine:

Good God, Zell was amazing! He seemedÖupset, donít you think ?

Sep 1, 2004 - 8:21 pm 154. Charlie (Colorado):

The thing that amazed me was that, after Zell wrote an entire book on how the Democrat Party had moved away from their ideals and embraced appeasment and inaction, the talking-heads (Mike Barnicle, for exaple) keep asking “what did the Democrats do to him?”

Sep 1, 2004 - 9:22 pm 155. Kevin P:

Roger:

Zell was great! The MSM is going to go after him. I saw Matthews on cornball and he was bringing up the racism card. He was talking about Nixon’s southern strategy as if it happened yesterday and trying to tie Zell into it. The dems and their lap dogs in the press are getting panicky. If they have to bring up the old chestnuts about all republicans being closet kluxers they must be feeling pretty shakey about Kerry. Chris is getting desperate.

Sep 1, 2004 - 10:11 pm 156. DennisThePeasant:

An Interesting Day To Have The Flu-

Sat in front of the tube today and got three fascinating glimpses of the campaign:

1) Kerry’s Legion Speech: If this was Kerry ’sharpening his Iraq/WOT message’, then I missed something. Yes, his criticism of Bush as balder, but as to a meaningful critique…he was (once again) all over the place. It seems that what he wanted to do was move away from his theme of ‘The solution is better management’ to something else, but by the time he was done, the ’something else’ part remained pretty elusive. So the bottom line is we still don’t have a meaningful statement of policy position on Iraq or the WOT, and it is now September. To me Kerry looked both uncomfortable and nervous, and he stumbled over his speech several times (something I have never seen him do before) which just highlighted the fact that he appeared to out of sorts. The receiption was polite but tepid…certainly no enthusiasm generated.

2) McAuliffe’s Press Conference: Terry McAuliffe may be able to raise more money that God, but he is an absolute disaster when it comes to being a party chairman. He has an uncanny ability to strike the exact wrong tone at the exact wrong time. His press conference today was a perfect example…the text of Zell Miller’s speech was out by that time, and McAuliffe was getting some hard (but good) questions about how it could be that Miller would be doing what he was doing. McAuliffe’s answer: to sell his book and get on talk shows. McAuliffe was obviously bitter about it, and just as obviously too intellectually helpless to give a passable answer. It didn’t go down well at all with the press. One thing is certain, today’s Terry wasn’t the smartass we saw a couple of months ago accusing Bush of being AWOL. Terry knows Kerry is in trouble, and it is very obvious Terry hasn’t a clue as to what to do about it.

3) Miller’s Speech: That was an awesome display of red-meat politics. Miller looked like he was ready to sprint to MA and bitch-slap both Kerry and Kennedy, then sprint back to NYC and give the speech again. He did not give the impression that he was going to put up with any bullshit from anyone about anything. This was confirmed by his later Hardball performance…he had Matthews begging for his life by the end. And the ’spitball’ line is going to play for the rest of the campaign. You simply cannot underestimate the impact of a sitting Democratic Senator going to the Republican convention and giving that kind of speech. You combine Rudy’s speech with Zell’s speech and you have a combination of punches that I cannot imagine John Kerry can answer. And make no mistake about it…Zell Miller was calling John Kerry out tonight, daring him to respond. He called Kerry a girlie-man tonight, but it was no joke.

I have the impression that this convention is going to bury the Democrats. As of last week, John Kerry had to answer the SBVFT to get to Bush. Now he has to get by the SBVFT, Rudy and Zell…and I see nothing that indicates Kerry even understands this yet.

Sep 2, 2004 - 1:01 am 157. Erik:

I managed to catch Zell Millers speech live too.

Excellent example of “who can say what”. I cant see any republican saying that and get away with it, but Zell Miller could.

His line “what’s happened to my party??” just spoke volumes of his frustration, and I thought the whole thing was just devastatingly effective and powerful. I cant see any way that what he said can be countered in any meaningful way. I’d be proud to live in Georgia right now (I have colleagues that do…).

Sep 2, 2004 - 5:14 am 158. Charlie (Colorado):

If they have to bring up the old chestnuts about all republicans being closet kluxers they must be feeling pretty shakey about Kerry.

Especially when they’re using it on a Democrat.

Sep 2, 2004 - 6:38 am 159. Kevin P:

Charlie:

As far as the MSM is concerned Zell is no longer a Democrat. When he spoke for Clinton in the 92 election he was a moderate new southern DEM. Now that he supports Bush and is going against a member of his party he is a angry white southern male with ties to Lester Maddux and the KKK. A symbol of how the Republicans are still using the racist Nixon southern strategy. The fact that his speach was about national defense and not social issues makes to difference to the Kerry flaks. They know that Zell hit it out of the park so you can expect a full court press attack by the media dragging out the racist history of the south and Millers ties to it. Of course they won’t mention the fact that the Dems still have Sen. Byrd, a former member of the KKK, as one of their senior leaders. He is a real Democrat.

Sep 2, 2004 - 8:30 am 160. Knucklehead:

I’m surprised this gang of merrymakers isn’t having a detailed Zell discussion. I found the speech amazing.

Once he got passed the warmup/intro phase where he was rushing and I was wishing he’d slow down and let an audience that CLEARLY wanted to be involved get involved, I sat there slack jawed. At least for the while I remained sitting. I wound up standing. I couldn’t believe what I was witnessing. A Dem standing there at the RNC, on Prime Time Telly, hammering the snot out of the Democratic Party and its presidential ticket.

The kids are off at school, the wife and dog were fast asleep. I swear that I came damn close to waking the Mrs. and telling her history was being made and she needed to sit up and watch it with me. I’ve never seen anything like it.

The NYT today all but pretended it never happened. Barely a word. I quickly scanned the convention secton (P) and only found one little mention buried in with some other article. My wife picked it up and did a more detailed scan and finally located the story about Zell. But they only excerpted his remarks and pointed to their website where the full text is. The excerpts went only as far as that warmup portion I mentioned above. None of slap across the face he delivered to his own party.

BTW, one thing I haven’t heard yet is recognition that this isn’t something new coming from Zell Miller. It isn’t as if he hasn’t tried to get his party to wake up prior to this. That speech basically says it all – the Dems will never listen until some of their own turn on them with devastating effect. Time to drop a little thank you email to Mr. Zell Miller. Those of you who would like to remain Dems or return to a sane party really should at least drop the Dems a hint to the Dem leadership that their “manic obsessions” are killing them.

Sep 2, 2004 - 9:07 am 161. Knucklehead:

Catherine,

Thought you might find this interesting re: the Viva La Gaping Hole in Men’s Heads subthread.

Sep 2, 2004 - 10:29 am 162. Kevin P:

Knucklehead:

Don’t worry, the Times will get to Zell soon enough. They are just lining up the Kerry camp quotes. They will go after Zell like this. The Kerry camp will whine that this is just more smear tactics by “angry ” republicans. They will say that Zell was attacking Kerry’s Patriotism.Then the Times will compare it to the Buchannan speach. Never mind the fact that Millers speech was just about defense and Buchannons screed was about social issues, the Times will use this excuse to paint all Republicans as angry, racist, homophobes and zenophobes. Like Matthews they will bring up Nixon and the southern strategy so they can tar Miller woth exploiting the racial divide in this country. The fact that this makes no sense and has nothing to do with Miller’s speach is beside the point. They know why Kerry said almost nothing about his Senate record in the Democratic Convention. It is too embarrasing when it comes to national defense and foreign policy. Miller exposed Kerry to the country and the Times will use the old ploy of portraying the republicans as the party of Lester Maddox and red neck racists who will force Americans to go to church and force women to stay in the home and produce children. Thery are scared that Bush will win and they will pull out all the stops to to help Kerry.

Sep 2, 2004 - 11:01 am 163. Percy Dovetonsils:

I’m very interested to hear Our Generous Host’s take on the Zell Miller speech. I think Roger’s reaction may be a harbinger of how it goes over with the wavering voter. I haven’t seen the actual video of it yet, but the text alone is pure, juicy, red meat.

I do know that Miller scared the bejeezus out of a lot of people on the Left last night. Read either the blog accounts of Matt Welch’s or Matt Yglesis’ (sp?) – those poor boys practically wet their chinos.

And yes, the comparison to Buchanan’s ‘92 speech is the new meme. Rove’s main trick now is to counter that comparison.

Sep 2, 2004 - 2:41 pm

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