If Islam has indeed been hijacked by a cult, it better start saving itself immediately. This kind of barbarian behavior cannot be allowed to contine.CNN.com – Scores killed inÔøΩschool siege – Sep 3, 2004
Valery Andreyev, head of the local branch of the FSB intelligence service, said 20 hostage-takers had been killed, 10 of them from Arab countries, after Russian troops stormed the school earlier Friday. (Map of school)
Until now, the rebels have been regarded as residents of the restive republic of Chechnya or other Caucasus areas.
Many fatalities have been reported. Around 100 people have been seen dead in the school gym by journalists.
There also was a report that 23 bodies, including 17 children, were outside a hospital morgue and 10 more bodies were inside. One news report said the death toll could exceed 150.
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137 Comments
1. Fausta:Two other headlines: Most of Beslan ex-hostages wounded in the back
and Female Terrorist Captured in Beslan: One female terrorist disguised as a nurse was seized after she tried to enter Beslan’s hospital.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:09 pm 2. asher:Spot on, Roger, as always. I’ve said in the past in my blog that I will not make sarcastic comments about “the Religion of Peace”, and I stand by that; it’s not my style. At the same time, though, I don’t criticize Charles for doing so, and I think I understand why he’s doing it. Muslims have an obligation to extirpate this plague on their religion – and as non-Muslims, we have a right and a positive duty to help them and encourage them to do it.
I don’t approve of anti-Muslim bigotry but, as Irshad Manji says, we have every right to let the Muslim world know that they will be judged – both singly and collectively – by their deeds.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:10 pm 3. wxjames:Denounce Islam now. Free your soul, free yourself. The religion called Islam is the master of servitude. Run for your lives.
That’s for them who will never read this.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:15 pm 4. Terrye:Roger:
I could not agree more. This is so awful.
I fear that the Muslims of the world will pay for these acts if they do not take responsibility and condemn them in the strongest terms. It seems that where ever you look, India, the Phillipines, Bali, Russia, Israel, Iraq, America …. fanatics calling themselves Muslims are murdering helpless people.
It will turn on them.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:19 pm 5. thibaud:Help the Russians, now. Retrain and help reform their military. Pay them whatever sum they need to cease all support and aid to Iran.
Time for us to get serious about helpnig the only nations that can seriously help us destroy the jihadists: Russia India, Turkey and Israel.
New century, new threat, new strategy and alliance system needed. Old Europe cannot help or harm us against a nuclear Iran. Look east, Americans.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:30 pm 6. RogerA:I spent one year in Riyadh in 1988 working for Vinnel Corp. as a military trainer for the Saudi National Guard. We shared out compound with Muslims from all over the Islamic world. As in almost all cases, once you got to know individuals, they were wonderful. TmjUtah posted a great piece on Totten’s blog a while back with much the same observation.
Having said that, the Subgroup in Saudi Arabia; that is, the fundamentalists, were detestable both individually and worse as a group. What strikes me is how the media (and of course the Arabists in the State Department) have no real experience with the sub-group. The recent standoff in Najaf demonstrates our depth of misunderstanding and how our view of Islam as “the Religion of Peace” kept us from meaningful military options. Recall in 1979 how the early Islamist movement occupied Mecca itself–what was the Saudi response? They stormed the place and beheaded those that werent killed outright. The main mosque in Mecca is far more important that the Shrine of Ali.
I am not surprised to learn that there were Arabs involved in the school take over–it is totally consistent with their fanaticism and fatalism–and those two traits are dangerous indeed.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:34 pm 7. thibaud:Outside of Poland and the Anglosphere, the only really solid and enduring support we can count on against the jihadists will come from those nations that perceive a clear convergence of interests with us as regards making war against the jihadists AND that can actually help us with real, hard assets in the region:- humint, bases, men materiel and a willingness to use them.
The simple, brutal fact of the matter is that, aside from the UK and Poland, the Europeans are more keen to maintain access to arab/persian contracts and oil and to dampen the domestic fallout from their own local jihadist cells than they are to help us fight the jihadists on arab or persian soil. This is a cold calculation of objective national interest.
Neither do these nations have any really meaningful assets there. The farce that has been the Little Three’s overtures to Iran these past couple of years is a good example of their fecklessness reagrding Iran and AQ.
Taken together, these objective facts mean that, despite the odd courageous leader, the foreign policy elites of France, Germany, Spain and Italy will continue to seek to triangulate between us and the muslim world. That is a rational response to their objective situation. I would probably pursue the same tack if I were in the Quai d’Orsay or the other foreign offices.
It’s true that Russia has pursued this strategy as well, and Turkey to some extent too. India has in the past been aligned with Iran. However, these nations and of course Israel actually have heavy assets, serious humint capabilities on the ground, bases and assets and a willingness to use them against the jihadists. Unlike the Little Three, these states’ solid support for a tough containment of Iran could actually make a huge difference there, and regionally, against Al Qaeda as well.
One more point: Iran is heavily courting them. You should not underestimate the value to the desperately poor Russian arms manufacturing and engineering sector of a few billion $$ from nations like Iran. Ditto of course for the Indian and Turkish economies.
Russia, Turkey and India’s support will not be easy to gain but with enough dollars, market goodies and other carrots we can bring them around. We need to get serious about doing so, and fast. A nuclear Iran is inevitable, and Old Europe is utterly powerless to help us against Iran when it happens.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:35 pm 8. thibaud:RogerA,
What strikes me is how the media (and of course the Arabists in the State Department) have no real experience with the sub-group.
We are in Reuel Marc Gerecht’s words, “flying blind in the middle east.” Our foreign policy desperately needs an infusion of realism and solid intel of the sort that only friendly realpolitikers in the region such as the Allawi govt, Israel, Turkey, Russia and India can provide.
NATO and the EU are worse than useless to us in the middle east. Let’s hope that Rummy and Bush will build upon the good foundation they created with Russia, Japan, China and India in the first term and take this Asian focus and cooperation to the next level in their second term.
The Iranian nuclear nightmare is here. Stop f***ing wasting time with the three dwarves. Get real and get focused on deepening ties with the nations that surround and that can contain Iran.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:41 pm 9. Terry:During Bush’s speech, I hoped that he would mention this horrible act of terrorism.
Of course, if he had, the media would have accused him of “scaring” us.
We should be.
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:48 pm 10. David [.net]:A few days into this attack, and this volunteer chose this t-shirt to wear:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040903/481/mosb13509031828
Sep 3, 2004 - 2:59 pm 11. RogerA:Thibaud: I do so enjoy your assessments–and you strike me as a devotee of Hans Morgenthau’s old, but still useful, approach to international affairs. Ambassador Wilson was precisely one of the State Department Arabist types who would drink sweet mint tea with educated and cultured Arab diplomats and never run into a mutawa or similar fanatic. Given that our humint will always be difficult in the Arab world for obvious reasons, we have no choice but to cultivate Arab friends who can vet and then deploy those humint resources.
Sep 3, 2004 - 3:01 pm 12. Tom Holsinger:It’s Arabs, not Muslims in general. And the Wahabbi sect in particular, funded by Saudi oil income. This will continue and get worse until the Wahabbis no longer have access to oil income.
This death cult is a extremist variant of the Arab version of Islam.
I said long ago that the principal question concerning our inevitable victory in the war on terror is how many Arabs will survive the experience.
This is one of many way stations on that quite ugly journey.
Sep 3, 2004 - 3:14 pm 13. RogerA:Tom Holsinger: I do agree about distinguishing Arabs from Muslims–there are distinctions–and even Arabs have distinct subgroups–I agree with your term Wahabbi. Those are the ones I was talking about.
Sep 3, 2004 - 3:22 pm 14. Tom Holsinger:RogerA,
Do you understand what is coming to the area presently known as Saudi Arabia?
Sep 3, 2004 - 3:48 pm 15. Tom Holsinger:Hmmm, arrow symbols seem to be HTML codes. My previous post left out:
“[Under] ten million locally born population within ten years, i.e., demographic catastrophe.”
Sep 3, 2004 - 3:55 pm 16. Sandy P:Thibaud, have you been visiting Rantburg lately under a different nom de plume?
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:14 pm 17. Sandy P:Well, the annual Muslim love fest is on in Chicago again, can’t wait to see what comes out of this one.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:17 pm 18. Assistant Village Idiot:UK, Poland, and Romania, BTW.
As to the news out of Russia, what can one do besides mist up, shake one’s head, and pray?
The diplomats of Old Europe should be made to explain this to the parents — with their own children present.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:18 pm 19. penwil:What has happened in Russia today has shaken me up badly, because I thought I understood the nature of our enemy, but I don’t think now that I really had. To fly planes into buildings and kill anonymous faceless people is one kind of evil. To look a child in the eyes and then shoot that child dead just to make a political point is a whole ‘nother kind of evil. That is an evil that has no stopping place. It has finally hit me today, I think, that we are not going to be able to defeat this enemy without embracing some evil of our own.
I truly fear that It is going to be a supreme challenge to come out of this coming war with our humanity and civilization intact, because in the end we will probably have to do things just to survive that we can’t even at the moment conceive of doing. We, too, are going to have to know no stopping place.
It is too depressing to even contemplate . . .
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:30 pm 20. lindenen:My mother’s a public school teacher and school starts next week. This is all I can think about.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:31 pm 21. Dave Schuler:Tom Holsinger:
It’s Arabs, not Muslims in general. And the Wahabbi sect in particular, funded by Saudi oil income. This will continue and get worse until the Wahabbis no longer have access to oil income.
The Saudis claim it’s not Wahhabis but Salafists. I wonder if Westerners in general and non-Muslims in particular should ever be expected to make doctrinal distinctions among competing Muslim sects.
The only real practical approach is for the the Muslim world to clean its own house. Any ideas for making that happen?
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:36 pm 22. RogerA:Tom H: not sure what you are looking for, but my guess would be the house of Abdul Aziz al Saud is not long for this world–They took to calling themselves the protectors of the holy places after 1979, but could only do so with significant American presence–and therein is one the sources of Bin Laden’s extremism–the other being, of course, Wahabbism–I believe the Wahabbis will take control in Saudi Arabia and make the Taliban look like girl scouts by comparison.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:36 pm 23. Dave Schuler:BTW Russian language media are reporting that the terrorists included Arabs.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:36 pm 24. asher:Already Time has posted a noxious piece of drivel urging Putin to make nice with the “Chechen” fighters. My response is here.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:38 pm 25. pdq332:It’s not enough for moderate-to-liberlal Muslims to “condemn” the terrorist violence anymore. I personally don’t give a rat’s ass when some Imam somewhere spouts off the “we hate terrorism” boilerplate, and then turn around and raise money for it. Muslims who listen to such coded messages understand. What they need to do is mobilize against the terrorists, fight the terrorists, shut down their money, and shed some blood sweat and tears.
After watching their rationalizations for continuing murder of innocent children in Israel for the last 30 years, I won’t hold my breath.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:43 pm 26. Sandy P:The real world Sophie’s Choice:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=3&u=/latimests/20040903/ts_latimes/killerssettermsamotherchooses
Zalina Dzandarova cradles her son Alan as he sleeps with his small face buried against her stomach. He is the child Dzandarova was able to save. The child she chose to save, really.
It is the other one, little Alana, her 6-year-old daughter, whose image torments her: Alana clutching her hand, Alana crying and calling after her. Alana’s sobs disappearing into the distance as Dzandarova walked out of Middle School No. 1 here Thursday, clutching 2-year-old Alan in her arms.
Guerrillas armed with automatic rifles and explosive belts who are holding hundreds of hostages at the small provincial school in southern Russia allowed 26 women and children to leave. About a dozen mothers, like Dzandarova, were allowed to take only one child, forced to leave another behind….
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:45 pm 27. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):One of the interesting tricks will be keeping Pakistan under control while cozying up to India. India is a natural ally of ours – we both are against China, India is democratic, and now pretty capitalist. It also has a real army and airforce (even a spiffy new Israeli-build AWACS).
But India has 160,000,000 Muslims (same number as Pakitan). And it borders Pakistan and both are nuclear armed. Hmmm.
What is totally clear is the need to denuke Iran. That’s a tough one. I guess Michael Ledeen thinks we can overthrow the regime by aiding the rebels. I don’t know where he comes by that idea, but then he does study the place a lot.
One way to get Muslims to clean their house is to reduce the size and population of the house. Let’s see what the Russians do now.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:52 pm 28. insatty:My young daughter goes to pre-school at our synagogue. Our security fees are doubling annually, because of the bomb threats from islamofascist sympathizers right here in Southern California. Then we see the sheer barbarity and inhumanity of the Arab terrorists in Russia, forcing children to go without food and water and forcing them to drink their own urine. Many they executed.
Unfortunately, I cannot separate my anger at the islamofascists from the anger I have toward the leftist appeasers in our own homeland. Half of my own extended family remain yellow-dog Jewish liberals. The Russian massacre is one more reason I cannot stomach anyone that will vote for Boxer and Kerry, two very liberal, anti-military “leaders.”
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:54 pm 29. Sandy P:penwil, Golda Meir pegged it those many years ago, “”There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews.”
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:54 pm 30. penwil:Oh, Sandy P. that is just so . . . so . . .
There are no words.
Sep 3, 2004 - 4:55 pm 31. MarkN:Everyone should read the horrible details here http://www.command-post.org/gwot/.
Apparently several terrorists were taken alive. I can’t help but wish I were there to see them brutally tortured, God help me.
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:07 pm 32. Samuel:I just returned back to Washington D.C. from the RNC Convention which I must say was fabulous. I was on the Convention Floor in I’m sure what Roger would call claustrophobic territory. (about 2 rows deep) I’ll talk about that in a more appropriate thread.
While in NYC I spend some time with friends (distant relatives of my wife) of Russian background, we of course spent time at Brighton Beach. I also acquired Convention passes for them so they good see Bush and some of the convention, they were absolutely star-struck by our President. However upon hearing of the tragedy in Russia one told me, “This is why President Bush must win, they say he makes many mistakes but for me he looks like perfection., just look how bad things turn for us.” She added, “The world must learn by US example how to fight Terror, only when the US proves to the world the way to fight, the world have a chance to be safe.”
By the way, she believes Bush to be one of the most clearly stubborn leaders she has ever seen. (of course she means resolute when she says stubborn.)
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:08 pm 33. Terrye:penwil:
They made the mother chose. My God, how could anyone be so cruel?
I wonder if AlJazeera showed this over and over and over again? I wonder if they made a point of showing the dead children and saying that this was the work of Muslim terrorists.
They probably told their viewers the attackers were in fact trying to liberate the school.
Here is their chance. If they want to prove to the world they are journalists then they should make sure every parent in the Arab world hears that story.
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:10 pm 34. Godzilla:Very graphic photos of the aftermath here, a couple hundred in all. Not for the squeamish.
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?sourceid=Mozilla-search&c=news_photos&p=beslan
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:19 pm 35. Samuel:insatty
Unfortunately, I cannot separate my anger at the islamofascists from the anger I have toward the leftist appeasers in our own homeland. Half of my own extended family remain yellow-dog Jewish liberals.
everyone
Well I have had to set a lot of anger aside for civility, but if only half of your extended friends and family (Jewish Liberals) remain yellow-dog then you are doing better then I by a mile.
–
People, President Bush must win this election PERIOD. Though I admit that seeing Ron Silver and others like him does make me feel more comfortable in a sea world of Republicans, I certainly don’t struggle to support like many. Actually Ron Silver looks pretty comfortable to me. The POTUS is damn straight forward and I like that.
On issues I would fear this President might turn on me through patronizing double speak I just don’t worry about because in truth he already has put me on notice up-front. This guy is just not going to waffle and I am appreciative, I don’t worry about it, I accept it.
Can a ex-liberal Jew be a South Park Republican or does only Neo-con apply? I ask because insatty has basically said what I somewhat agree with. The Creator of the show South Park said ,(and excuse my French)… “I really can’t stand Conservatives, but I just hate fucking Liberals!”
My disdain can be that strong at times, and the phrase somewhat sums up my feelings.
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:31 pm 36. penwil:I tried to look at the pictures, but I couldn’t get very far. It was just too unbearable.
I want to take every Leftist fool I know–and, living here in SF I know many, and many are my dear friends–and MAKE them look at these photographs, every single one of them, make them look at the photos and read the stories, over and over, make them imagine their own children dead like those poor Russian babies, make them look and look and look until they WAKE THE HELL UP!
Jesus wept. How can you not look at this and call it evil?
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:31 pm 37. penwil:What I meant to say was . . . How can you look at this and not call it evil?
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:33 pm 38. David [.net]:The Russian Embassy is linking to the org taking donations.
http://www.russianembassy.org/
Honestly, I’d personally prefer to do violence.
Sep 3, 2004 - 5:55 pm 39. Samuel:I took the Amtrak back to Union Station. I sat at a table with 2 Republicans and a war protester. First, I was lucky as there were clearly more protesters then sane people. (I mean how many came from Washington? The whole train was full of these people!) This person just kept going on about how we have killed 30,000 indiscriminately in Iraq. I refused to give the person the dignity of a conversation.
I heard all the stupid arguments. You know the ones where the United States is detailed as the perpetrator of crimes with all the ill intentions of a NAZI regime. Of course all this is done while our virtues as a nation are overlooked, and the true evil designs and actions of our enemies are ignored. These people are sick!
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:00 pm 40. thibaud:John Moore
It’s probably too late to “de-nuke Iran.” The mullahs are hell-bent on nukes and are now openly laughing at jack Straw and the other dwarves. But even if there were a supposedly moderate, rational Iranian regime it would be unlikely to give up its nukes, for reasons of simple nationalism. Iran’s a major regional power– far bigger and nearly as oil-rich as Iraq, Saudi or Kuwait. What major power has ever given up nukes once it attained them?
So the only option left us is containment, for which like-minded allies who are terrified of Iran and its nukes will be key. The French Germans and to be honest the Brits would rather appease than contain Iran, so they’re not going to be any help at all. I can see the French now, approaching the mullahs and delivering the same message they’ve been broadcasting these past ten days across the arab world: We’re on your side–really. We only pretend to be America’s friend.
So if containment is to work, then we absolutely must have a deep and strategic military relationship, if not an alliance, with the non-muslim powers that can truly hem in and pressure Iran: India to the east, Turkey and Allawi’s Iraq to the west, and Russia to the north.
A form of decadence, I suppose, and certainly a huge disservice to our nation that the arabists in the State Dept and the idiots in the MSM do not recognize the simple and powerful logic of this approach.
But a change a-gonna come. The mullahs will force it.
SandyP – yes, that’s me.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:05 pm 41. Sandy P:Why are they mostly naked in the pictures?
Psychological torture?
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:15 pm 42. Terry:Samuel
Ron Silver called Bush a “radicl liberal”. Ron Silver is right – Bush is no conservative with regard to Foreign Policy. Bush is a man who wants to use “Jacksonian” methods to achieve “Wilsonian” ideals.
A conservative foreign policy was either isolationist or anti-communist realpolitik.
Some, not all, of Bush’s domestic policies are conservative – by today’s standards. Some of these same policies would have been called liberal 20 years ago. (I’m refering to his education policies (more Pell grants, more spending, etc.)) While other domestic proposals are “paleo-conservative”, but won’t pass anyway.
I hope this is lucid, my fingers have a hangover …
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:20 pm 43. asher:Samuel,
Thanks … so THAT’s where that expression comes from. Now I don’t have to feel stupid anymore. (Well, not for that, anyway.)
SandyP,
I don’t even want to speculate. Some things I’d rather not know.
Thibaud,
I agree on the importance of partnership with the non-(state-)Islamic powers. But I strongly disagree about de-nuking Iran. I don’t think they have nukes yet, but they are certainly working to get them. They have to be stopped before they do.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:21 pm 44. Terrye:Samuel:
People like that are the result of the warning labels you see on things. You know the labels on hair dryers that tell you not to use them when taking a shower? Well that guy’s Mom read that and as a result the gene pool was not culled.
The other day some dumbass started that 30,000 thing and I told him flat out that he was either a liar or a fool. Not even our critics put the numbers up that high. I also pointed out to thim that there are 25 million people in that country, they obvioulsy have access to arms and if we were slaughtering them left and right I think we would be seeing a lot more dead Americans.
I also told him he was a Saddam loving little freak who did not and would not give a flying fuck if Saddam killed half his population and if he wants to have demostration to save lives how about Darfur.
He looked at me like I was insane and backed away. hey at least he shut up.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:22 pm 45. David [.net]:Why are they mostly naked in the pictures?
It supposedly was because it was very hot with all of them forced in the gym, and they were not allowed to drink.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:27 pm 46. Jamie Irons:Terrye:
I have tremendous respect for you, from reading your posts here, so I do not mean to be in any way sarcastic in asking this. But when you said:
you were being bitterly ironic, right? I mean, throughout the war, this “news” entity has demonstrated all the objectivity of Markos Zuniga, though somewhat less malice,
Jamie Irons
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:29 pm 47. Terrye:Jamie:
You and I and anybody with the sense God gave lettuce knows that AlJazeera is a propaganda machine.
But the folks at the BBC and such keep saying they are trying to get this whole journalist thing down and like Fox they have their own view point.
Well here is their chance. If they don’t cram this massacre down the collective throat of the Muslim world then I guess we will have one more bit of evidence that they and by association the BBC are hypocrites and liars.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:37 pm 48. Jamie Irons:Terrye:
Thanks for clarifying what you said. (Maybe I was too dense to get your meaning.)
Jamie Irons
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:41 pm 49. Terrye:Jamie:
Anytime.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:55 pm 50. Knucklehead:Thibaud,
Help the Russians, now. Retrain and help reform their military. Pay them whatever sum they need to cease all support and aid to Iran.
Oh boy… I’m not particularly proud of the sentiment I’m about to express. It’s what I’ll call the Worst Acceptable Case Scenario (the worst case scenario being that we don’t win short of full-scale, blow ‘em up and shoot ‘em and burn ‘em till they can’t fight any more).
This scenario is that by fighting vigorously we accomplish something similar to what the appeasers in Europe have been trying to accomplish. In the case of the appeasers they’ve counted on the Islamomurderers to leave them alone and attack the US. In my Worst Acceptable Case Scenario, the Islamomurderers decide that fighting us is a losing battle and far too expensive and turn their murdering attentions elsewhere (Europe and Russia and the edges of China and India being the “elsewhere”).
It might be a good idea to help train the Russian military but that seems to me something similar to training a future enemy. I’d rather have them fight their own battles in their own, inept way. The Russians won’t lose to the Islamomurderers any more than we will, but I don’t think its a good idea to help them win at our own expense.
Realpolitick. Ugly (by nicey-nice standards) on a good day.
Sep 3, 2004 - 6:57 pm 51. Knucklehead:OMG! I was really falling into a funk due to this topic and the scenes and news revolving around it, but I just happened to click into Christopher Walken doing the watch scene in Pulp Fiction. I almost feel better. I’m gonna collect myself for a few minutes here and read the rest of the thread. There are one or two of the regulars here at Roger’s Place who, no doubt, understand.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:25 pm 52. Samuel:Terry(e?), Everbody
Bush on the issues of basic Governance and Foreign Policy is ok by me. What I mean is he is an “Activist Conservative”. In reality he is somewhat more a Teddy Roosevelt type Progressive Republican. He embodies the values of Conservatism which is to say he views America as more the worlds hope and not the worlds problem. He is patriotic and unashamed. For him being right is what is important, principle certainly trumps recognition by a vain and the self-absorbed world. He is optimistic and will certainly carry a big stick if necessary.
I am starting to get the “Compassionate Conservative” thing. Basically it is that government is not bad and if applied properly it will add and not detract from society. It places measurements on the responsiliites of government administration and adds accountiblity. For example, school vouchers (which Ron Silver agrees with) would be available as a choice. The government stops forcing onto people things like tax funded education being run exclusively by the state. Allowing people needing services to choose the means as long as measurably effective, such as turning to religious institutions if that be the individual’s choice is just fine. Those that choose non-religious institutions would have that choice. As long as the public is funding these things why should not all available means of effective help be available? Liberalism fears competition and accountibility, those are conservative principles.
I do not want a third party. It has become apparent to me that religiously inclined people have a tendency to more support such approaches. They are less ashamed of America and generally more willing to be supportive of our Nations best interests. I think I understand now why Irving Kristol, the Godfather of the Neocons, when he says that the innate moralism that is embodied by Social Conservatives make them the most natural allies on issues of War and Peace, our nations interests and putting money where the mouth is on higher causes. For those of us who also have tendencies to moralism from non-religious perspectives (I plead guilty), we simply must make some choices. The typical pro-choice person with non-religious tendencies is not going to inspire a majority coalition that tackles the most important issues of our day now, or any time soon, so the choice is easy for me. September 11th and a special President assured that for me.
Ed Koch said freedom is meaningless if your dead. Fortunately for me I see things even brighter. As I stood at the RNC Convention close enough to give any protester the opportunity to spit upon this President, in truth I would have just loved to give him a hug like the construction worker gave him shortly after 9/11 as explained by Giuliani. This President inspired me way beyond my expectations as I see much more hope in this man then security and the WOT. At the convention I saw a man who sees America in very complex terms, I guess that is what a non-nuanced view does. It allows for clarity of vision. Bush Sr. talked of the vision thing, yet it is his son that has it.
It was expressed at the convention that the evidence of a twilight in the skies does not mean the lack of not night and day. This President sees night and day. I think the following from Dick Morris today in the NY Post expresses pretty well how I feel…
I voted for Gore in 2000, as a true child of the Clinton era. But I decided to vote for Bush on Sept. 12, 2001 when I saw how he handled the threat we face. I used to back Bush because he offered safety; now I support him because he summons us all to an ideal. Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor.
Amen to that.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:34 pm 53. heather:When the Russians put Sputnik into the stratosphere, the Americans reacted by pouring huge amounts of money into educating scientist – very successfully.
The trouble with this war, is that we need multi lingual people who understand the Middle East, and who are at the same time American patriots. The universities are useless here, given their anti american bias; and the State Dept is an Arabist institution, meaning it is chock full o’ ivy league graduates of the anti American universities (really, folks, get a copy of Kaplan’s “The Arabists”, it is key to understanding the State Dept)
So, where to find these people our civilization needs? I think they will be propagated by the Department of Defense, and they will receive their initial education during this war in Iraq.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:41 pm 54. Occam's Beard:A little sharp-elbowed, perhaps, but OTOH the “enemy of my enemy” approach led us to organize, train, and arm the mujahedeen to fight the Russians in the first place (thereby exacerbating our present problems), so that thinking carefully about whether or not to continue pursuing this approach is an eminently sensible suggestion.
In addition, it would be hard for us to train the Russians without inflaming their feelings of inferiority (never far from the surface) and giving them the impression that we are patronizing them.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:42 pm 55. lindenen:Then get some Israelis to do it. I hear they’ve been training us.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:43 pm 56. Knucklehead:I hope the thread isn’t exhausted. Yooze{guys,gals} are unbelievable. I’d go crazy (crazier) without y’all. Thanks. Sincerely.
The sick events in Russia (or Besla or wherever the heck it is) will not turn the MSM or any Moonbat. The MSM/Moonbat/Democratic response will be something similar to, “See! This is what happens when lunatics like the moron Bu$hitler and his oil stealing dictator lapdog Putin, both puppets of the evil HalliburtonChaney, refuse to negotiate with Seperatist Freedom Fighters who they forced into doing distasteful things like taking children hostage. Chirac and Kerry would have defused this without bloodshed.”
I have news for them, though. This thing today has, IMO, brought American women, mothers in particular, about five giant steps closer, although they don’t recognize it yet, to the Kill ‘em all and let Allah sort ‘em out option.
Roger was half correct when he said that Islam needs to wake up. Islam needs to wake up because its 2004 and this MurderingJihad idiocy is not the right way to proceed. But Islam also needs to wake up because the clock is ticking and if they delay until the alarm goes off, American mothers will wake up and voice their support for the Dresden Option and, if that doesn’t work, the Hiroshima Option. The last thing in the world Islam should want is for US mothers to reach the tipping point and arrive at the point of saying, “I don’t care what you do, slaughter their children in their schools if necessary, just stop them from slaughtering our children in our schools.”
The Muslim world will understand the full range of terror if US mothers reach the tipping point. Conversations with my wife today, and listening to some other women who are mothers, suggest to me that this thing in Russia has pushed them closer to that tipping point. Woe unto Islam if that day happens.
Bringing this operational tactic to the US would be the single stupidest thing the Islamomurderers could possibly do. Unfortunately they have demonstrated their ability to do increasingly stupid things.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:49 pm 57. Knucklehead:Samuel,
It seems we are arriving at a similar place from opposite (at least fiscally opposite) starting points. I started at “that government which governs least governs best”.
You’ve articulated something I think I agree with far better than I ever could. I’m gonna re-reead it and ponder it hard.
Thank you.
Sep 3, 2004 - 7:59 pm 58. Terry:Knucklehead,
“Bringing this operational tactic to the US would be the single stupidest thing the Islamomurderers could possibly do.”
Throughout the convention the media accused the Republicans of “scaring people”. They assured us that this would not not play well with the swing voter. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, someone should have mentioned this hostage situation during the convention.
America’s mothers, fathers, and grandparents need to be reminded that THIS IS REAL. This could happen here.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:03 pm 59. Knucklehead:BTW, if it hadn’t been for US mothers having serious concerns for the safety of people in FL with Frances coming ashore, I think we would have had seven or eight Giant Steps rather than five. The magic number of Giant Steps is approximately ten and the pace accellerates rapidly after the first few.
If there are any lurkers here who are Muslim or have access to the Islamic world, you really need to think about getting the message out. Time is running short and on Nov. 3 the clock gets a turbocharger. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:04 pm 60. Old Grouch:Samuel
Re: “South Park Republicans”
As somebody who calls himself “conservative” (my sister, otoh, has described me as “somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun”), let me say that there are some “conservatives” who I “really can’t stand” either!
The Republican Party is no more monolithic than the Democrats were in the old days. There’s aleays been a “South Park Republican” contingent, but you usually don’t hear about them because (1) the South Parkers would just as soon not be bothered– they’d rather be watching football, (2) the activists (lacking a better term: I don’t mean just the Falwell folks, and I don’t just mean the Christian Right) tend to be noisier and make more outrageous statements, and (3) the MSM and the Democratic Party have found it politically advantageous to maximize the influence of (2) and minimize the influence of (1), the better to scare folks like you
I agree with Terry’s analysis and predictions re the Bush (Republican) domestic policy, espeically that the paleo-conservative stuff won’t pass anyway. That’s the political reality.
Meanwhile, there’s plenty of room. Welcome aboard.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:08 pm 61. Terry:OT
In a Ralph Peters article yesterday -
“Perhaps the best line making its way around veterans’ Web sites these days is: “A Kerry defeat would be the welcome-home parade we never had.”‘
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/19097.htm
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:11 pm 62. heather:The AP published a lie about a Bush rally, ie that the crowd cheered when he told them of Clinton’s illness, and Bush made no attempt to stop them.
That is a lie. The internet references, etc are at powerlineblog.com
If you decide to communicate with the Associated Press about their ‘mistake’, someone at vodkapundit said email info@ap.org.
Ain’t the blogosphere marvellous????
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:18 pm 63. rod:Something went today for me. SOmething structurally snapped.
The one that catches me is the front one on the Yahoo set–Allah fronts it on his page–look at the mother’s face as she strokes her daughters face–its a universal look of love and warmth. You can feel her fingers play across her skin, hear the soft song she sings–some lullaby, a favorite one, the one that’s always calmed her down before. The wrist is important for the child–mom’s soap or perfume–heightens the sense that they are fully protected by the mother, that nothing will harm them.
The Mother’s cocked neck, the saucer eyes…this is a mother/child vignette played out millions of times daily across the globe. It unites us as a race: no matter what divides us, all children seek to be comforted and all mother seek to comfort.
The child in this photo is dead.
Her skin is starting to bloat and the color is gone as the blood drains away and begins to rot. SHe was executed on her back–naked–in a gym in her school in the blinding heat of the SOuthern Russian late summer. She had had no water for nearly two days, so the onset of livor mortis is additionally distorted by the initial stages of dehydration. If the bullet that entered into her did not cause parastolic shock at a suitable trajectory–then she would likely have been beaten with rifle butts until the blunt trauma to her cranium ended her ability to scream.
These were her last minutes on earth. Naked, wracked by hunger and fear, in a dark and squalid gymnasium with her parents a very far 500 yeards away. There were no adults to comfort her and the men and women who killed her did not speak her language.
She would have obeyed every command barked at her, as given her age, she would only wish to obey an adult. Despite a level of fear that we are simply unable to model, it is clear that when asked to lie down for the shot–and beating–that would kill her in an orderly, methodical way, she did so.
She did what six year olds do the world over: she waited her turn.
I understand none of this; cannot comprehend the nude savagery that was last reared in such a fashion during the holocaust.
ALl I understand is the look on the mothers face, doing the only thing that she can do anymore.
The world has changed for us, even more clearly than 9-11. I do not beleive notions of alliances anymore. Their is only living and dying against such a foe, but there is not even that, really. Winning is living only if these people die.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:27 pm 64. Syl:Samuel
Worth repeating! I’ve been realizing this more and more and am increasingly comforted by it.
I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned this but my father was a Lutheran minister. Yes, I’m a Preacher’s Kid with all the rebellion and contempt for authority that goes along with it. When my dad left the ministry and the church and turned in his ordination papers when I was a teenager, my first thought was ‘Great! Now I don’t have to get up early on Sunday to go to church anymore’
And I haven’t been inside one since except for my sister’s funeral.
And yet. And yet. Here I am feeling empty and left out and turning to those who still believe to give me hope and comfort and purpose.
And I believe there must be a power greater than myself, whatever that may be, because the alternative is too frightening to contemplate. If we are just an accident in this universe it leaves us totally alone and helpless with nothing but pro-creation to drive us. Nothing.
But then, on days when I’ve been totally depressed about the world, I’ve turned to the Country Music cable station and gotten comfort from that as well. Maybe I’m just nuts.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:27 pm 65. David [.net]:The Muslim world will understand the full range of terror if US mothers reach the tipping point.
This is making me think of Wretchard’s Three Conjectures, in which a single nuclear attack on the US by nonstate muslims will lead to their utter distruction. But what of an attack like this school massacre? We knew by lunchtime on 11 Sep 01 that no airliner would be driven into a skyscraper again. No fear kept me from sleeping that night in my Times Square apartment. But if they can attack an elementary school, even with swords, how do we stop them from doing it again? Children can be killed with bare hands, when they are the hands of these creatures. If it happens here, what are we able to do, willing to do to keep it from happening again? I don’t think we need a nuclear attack to reach the level of absolute unacceptablity.
BTW, “Giant Steps” was the name of the preschool in Tom Clancy’s Patriot Games that was attacked by terrorists.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:35 pm 66. RogerA:I have been unable since reading Sandy P’s note about sofies choice to make myself look at any pictures or reports–The total inhumanity is incomprehensible to me–We need to understand as a civilization there there is indeed evil in the world, and it is most certainly not going to be a function of a “failure to communicate.” Thibaud in the initial postings pointed the way to what I think is a meanginful strategy; to wit: we must get the human intelligence (humint) on these groups–that requires infiltrating them and very frankly, a bunch of white guys or girls cannot do that–The humint agents must be semitic arabs–period–in my judgment this constitutes another powerful case for cultivating at least one Arab state who allies with our cause–That is clearly not the Saudis–It is the Iraqi’s–we must have a government that can vet, train (with our help, and deploy humint agents–this is a long term proposition–but it must be done. We have all the technical stuff–but we MUST infiltrate the cells. Without that we will never get the full picture of the threat facing us.
My heart goes out to the Russian people who lost loved ones–Our friends the Israelis have been losing their loved ones for years–It is tragic to see the poison spread.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:36 pm 67. Charlie (Colorado):Syl –
Here,
What more evidence do we need?
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:48 pm 68. David [.net]:Long before there were South Park Republicans, there was P.J. O’Rourke’s Republican Party Reptile.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:50 pm 69. Cybrludite:Find those responsible. Stake them out under the hot sun. Bayonet them in the gut. Rub fresh pig… feces… into the wound. No quarter.
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:52 pm 70. Tom Holsinger:DaveS,
My understanding of Saudi religious affiliations is that those are largely, or almost so, tribal-based which in turn have geographic roots. The dominant sect is the branch of the Wahabbi sect affiliated with the Saud group. There are other types of Wahabbis affiliated with other clans/tribes. And a whole pecking order with the Saud-favored Wahabbi sect at the top and the non-Wahabbi types at the bottom with the non-Sunni aka Shiite Arab clans/tribes in the northeast (near Kuwait & Iran) at the very bottom.
The fun part is that the principal oil-producing areas are chiefly inhabited by Shiites. And we have a working alliance with the Shiite Arabs of Iraq. You might even think it was planned that way years ago.
RogerA,
Less than 12% of the labor force in Saudi Arabia was locally born as December 2003, per official Saudi Labor Ministry statistics. They’d be dead absent the 6-8 million foreign workers because their population lacks the skills and work ethic for the 19-20 million total locally born population to exist in that incredibly hostile climate. Let alone operate the oil industry necessary to pay for the imports to keep their civil infrastructure going.
The foreign workers will go when the Saud regime collapses. And then the demographic catastrophe will happen. Most of the difference will become refugees elsewhere, but millions will die in place from exposure and violence.
Saudi Arabia is the #1 place in the world, even above the Sudan, where the key to survival is “Get Out”.
SandyP,
They are mostly naked because it was stifling hot in the auditorium and there was no water.
Everyone,
Go here http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=RUSSIA.HTM and read Jim Dunnigan’s posts for September 3 and September 2 for a good, brief summary of how Chechyna got to be what it is today. There is a traditional, and effective, solution for such behavior. The Russians will get to it eventually. They have before.
“… Chechen independence was not a major issue, Chechen’s disruptive effect on the entire region was. This was nothing new. The Chechen’s had, for centuries, been one of the more powerful ethnic groups (out of over fifty) in the Caucasus. The Chechens were used to doing as they wanted, and were tough enough, and ruthless enough, to get away with it. Two centuries ago, this unruly attitude brought the Chechens into violent contact with the expanding Russian empire. The Russians kept killing Chechens until the survivors agreed to behave. But such bloodletting is never forgotten in places like the Caucasus. The Chechens hate the Russians and want to be free to do whatever they want. And that’s what the war in Chechnya is all about …”
Sep 3, 2004 - 8:56 pm 71. Knucklehead:Dave Schuler,
Thanks for saying it. Muslims need to stop hiding behind their sects. It isn’t up to the rest of the world to try and understand Wahabbis from whatevers.
Some portion, or all, of their religion’s adherents are murderers. Cold blooded murderers of children. Either they fix their religion or it will have to be killed.
I can’t believe people shooting captive children in the back (or anywhere). Rod or somebody above had an excellent post (there are so many). Think about it. Think about standing over a child, pointing a gun, and pulling the trigger for some idiotic concept like “jihad” or “seperatism” or whatever. It has to stop and it has to stop very soon.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:07 pm 72. ambisinistral:I have trouble buying into the billion person strong Cult of Death. I would like to think people were better than that. I’ve been kicking around a thought lately… I’ve been getting the sickening feeling that maybe Islam has woke up and that’s the real root of the problem.
One of the pieces of conventional wisdom is that the Moslem world needs a Luther. Maybe Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Moslem Brotherhood who first articulated the idea of traditional Moslem values replacing the corrupt and bankrupt values of the West was that Arab Luther?
The Protestant Reformation grew out of the interpretation of the Bible by lower Priests and its translation into the vernacular. Put in the hands of worshippers, and disconected from the centuries of dogma and teachings of the Catholic Church, the Protestant Reformation spread like wild fire. It spread, frequently in a very austere and stern version we often don’t recognize in these more ecumenical days, first among the dispossed of Europe. It sold itself as a return to true Christianity unfiltered by the corruption of heretical and debased authority.
Isn’t the rise of Islamism similar? It was born of the collapse of the Caliphite and, although I’m not to clear on this point, it involved translating the often inaccessable Arabic of the Koran into modern vernacular. Self-proclaimed Inmans reinterpreted the Koran and elevated the Shaira (only one of many systems of formal Islamic law if I understand correctly) above the authority of the colonializers and local secular rulers. It spread through the poor as a vision of the return to the true path of Islam.
Moslems seem obsessed with their vision of the Umma. The community of believers that embraces all believers. If islamism is a reformation, then it is also a scism. Could the silence, the seeming collaboration even, of the moderates and slightly religious be an attempt to deny that scism so the umma doesn’t fragment yet again? Do they attempt to avert their eyes and wish away the final fatal shattering of the ancient idea of umma against the encroaching modern world?
I’ve commented before about the strange dichotomy of the Moslem’s reaction to each Islamic horror. Cheering their supposed victories as they draw back, deny and ultimately disavow their own involvement in the barbarism of the very acts they cheer.
Most likely my ramblings above are just wishful thinking. Hoping there is some stress point where the moderates fracture from the fanatics. However, if that fracture between the fanatic and the moderates doesn’t occur then, as somebody said (and I’m sorry, but I don’t remember where I read it), Americans will eventually consider Moslems as 21st Century Apaches. These are truely frightening days.
:-/
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:07 pm 73. RogerA:Tom H: you clearly have some experience in the “kingdom,” and you are absolutely correct–The house of Saud bought off the bedouins of other tribes than that of Saud by buying them pickup trucks, and giving them sinecures as national guardsmen and other bureaucratic jobs–The Saudi economy exists because Filipano/a s, Bengali’s, Thai’s and other indentured laborers do the necessary tasks of society; to wit: taking out the garbage and keeping the plumbing clean. Without those ex-patriots the saudis would choke on their own garbage and drown in their own waste–
For those classically minded readers of this blog, the masterwork of that great 13th Century Arab sociologist, Ibn Khaldun, The Muquadimma, is still the best description of the mentality of the desert tribes and what happens when they are confronted with civilization–I commend to everyone’s reading list.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:14 pm 74. Samuel:Knucklehead
Thanks. In reading it again I realize that I actually didn’t give my explanation much justice, this probably won’t either, but I’ll expand.
President Bush embodies one of the most incredible blends of ideals and realism I have ever witnessed. I believe it greatly surpasses Bill Clinton, and more for his principled nature more then talent.
Bush’s realism understands that the people want certain services he is not going to talk them out of. Education is a good example. So what Bush simply does is think, “If people must have these things, as a conservative how would this be best implemented according to such values.”
This does many things I like. First this shows respect to the people. It is not the inversion of “nanny state” where people wishes are ignored for an arrogant sense of what he thinks we shouldn’t want. A majority want to make sure government guarantees certain things like education, libertarians have to get a grip and understand this.
Secondly it is humble. As many things are not a matter of life and death, the people should be deliberated with. When a President says, “If people desire these things, as a conservative how would this be best implemented according to such values.” This causes him to be truly open minded and progressive, yet what he is doing is creating an atmosphere where peoples individual values can be respected. A religious person can chose to go to a religious institution if desired, a non-religious… you get the picture.
Thirdly, hard core libertarianism will never be the norm, though a smaller more efficient government can be. Examples…
Social Security – Private Social Security Accounts if one so chooses. This maintains the security of setting aside future monies for the aging, current Seniors keep it the way it is. Why don’t Democrats want this? FEAR!
Heath Insurance – Nationalize it? No way! If we do nothing we just might end up there. Giving Small Business the ability to join into groups that they might benefit from the rates a larger pool of employees gives them. It may seem unbelievable but at this time in our system this can not effectively be done. I own a business large enough to not have to worry about this but I sympathize with those that don’t.
Education – I already mentioned vouchers earlier, but the advantages for those in underprivileged circumstances should be obvious to anybody with a brain and lacking self interest. (Such as membership to a Federal Teachers Union)
Taxes – Simplified tax code. Sure the Founding Fathers didn’t envision such taxes as they more viewed tariffs as the means to raise revenues. No matter, they are here to stay. Simplify it and make it to where cheating is difficult , not worth it, or better unecessary. I support a flat sales tax. It must be a sales tax because that puts the burden of accounting on business and not individuals. Goodbye IRS for the Harry Homeowner. Many would say that such a sales tax is regressive, to which I say, no way! I am well off financially and know better.
In truth the way to handle the repressive potential is to exempt food, medicine and other staples from taxation completely. My consumption of food and health care is not too different by comparison to those on more regular wages. But the non staples are where the differences are more greatly displayed. Cars clothes, jewelry etc. I would predict the rich would continue to pay the majority if taxes.
–
These are examples of compassionate conservatism to me. I have always respected Jack Kemp. For example, his ideas of Enterprise Zones and willingness to use other creative means to foster productivity seems like the mindset Bush is following. The truth is Reagan’s tax reform in the 1980’s fostered the economy we live in. This was progressive indeed. We need to continue being progressive. In truth liberals are going to endeavor to be progressive and try to incorporate things like National Health Care anyway. Republicans need to beat them to it and implement them with the conservative values and principles, of effectiveness, efficiency, respect to individual beliefs (religious or not) and use their model of implementing with as little bureaucracy as possible.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:15 pm 75. RogerA:Ambi (my pardon for truncating your sig line)–I think the problem is that Islam lacks an Aquinas, not a Luther. Islam science until the 14th century was dynamic and evolving–Unlike the Christian West, who produced an Aquinas who could reconcile faith and reason, the Islamic intelligentsia never produced such a figure–eventually the imams won out and faith never was able to coexist with reason–the sheiks of Al Azar exercised full sway over intellectual discussion to the exclusion of “lay” scholars–and in my opinion, the influence of the Imams in both Iraq and Iran confirm the continued primacy of the sacred over the secular.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:20 pm 76. Jamie Irons:rod:
Superb post!
ambisinistral:
I like your analysis, and I hope you’re right. What you say about the curious ambivalence of the passive Muslims to the murderous ones is suggestive and intriguing.
Jamie Irons
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:21 pm 77. J_Crater:Without trying to be a bit morose, it is most obvious that today is a very bad day for Chechen public relations. Shooting fleeing children in the back just doesn’t help garner any new supporters, no matter the cause.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:32 pm 78. RogerA:Rod–What Jamie said–extraordinarily sensitive and moving–thank you.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:32 pm 79. thibaud:Knuck,
In my Worst Acceptable Case Scenario, the Islamomurderers decide that fighting us is a losing battle and turn their murdering attentions [to] Europe and Russia and the edges of China…
It might be a good idea to help train the Russian military but that seems to me something similar to training a future enemy
Your scenario doesn’t deal with the imminent reality of a nuclear Iran. Nuclear Iran means Al Qaeda gets nukes means dirty bombs going off in Manhattan, in containers arriving at the ports of LA and Houston and Oakland, etc.
Iran is the key here. Iran needs to be surrounded by a coalition of determined allies who are armed to the teeth and deadly serious about winning this war. Such a coalition cannot include the nation that is now sending its diplomats forth to tell every muslim thug from Algiers to Teheran that its journalists should not be slaughtered because that nation sides with the jihadists against the US.
Wake up, Americans. France is not an ally in the middle east. Jack Straw and the other EU stooges are jeopardizing any real chance of containing Iran.
We must recognize that the EU’s triangulation approach in the middle east will only harm us and that we must replace NATO as soon as possible with a coalition of Eurasian and Asian powers that can and will use force wherever necessary to prevent the Iran-AQ axis from slaughtering us all.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:33 pm 80. Occam's Beard:Following up Knucklehead’s previous hateful suggestion, a second one came to mind after reading of the disgusting events in Russia, and fearing for the same here.
A recent documentary detailed how Pablo Escobar, a Colombian drug lord, was brought down, despite at one point essentially owning the Colombian government and appearing to be invincible.
A thoroughly pissed-off group (unsavory in its own right) simply began killing anyone and everyone who had any dealings whatever – legal or otherwise – with the drug lord. They killed his lawyers, his bankers, his friends, his relatives, his allies in the government, anyone who had even legitimate dealings with him, the lot, and they made clear what they were doing.
It was brutal, it was immoral, but it was effective. No one would give him assistance. It isolated Escobar from his support, and led to his demise.
Perhaps, rather than Kerry’s law enforcement model, we need to implement something more like that. Would, for example, bankers risk acting as conduits for terrorist money if they knew someone, somewhere, might consider them complicit in terrorism and kill them for it? No warrant, just bullets. They’d have to err on the side of caution; if there were the slightest doubt about the propriety of a transaction, they might be betting their lives. Hardly worth it.
Just a thought, starting from the premise that Marquis of Queensbury rules are going to cut it in dealing with these people.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:33 pm 81. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):Re: Containing Iran
The danger of increased numbers of nuclear powers is deterrence fails. If Iran gives one of its bombs to Al Qaeda for use in Washinton, DC, after it goes off we don’t know who did it. That removes the main disincentive for doing it – utter destruction of the aggressor.
If you have nukes in North Korea, Pakistan, and Iran, you have an unstable situation, with the probabilities that terrorists get one or more goes up.
Hence we must denuclearize Iran and North Korea. If ever there was a case for pre-emption, this is it. I suspect that if it were not an election year, we would be going after Iran now.
Notice also that the government is now funding a program to be able to identify the source of the bomb after a blast. That is not reassuring.
Samuel
You have it exactly right on medical care. In fact, that is one of the reasons I took employment rather than retiring – the inability to get medical insurance. However, created risk pools often don’t work that well – you end up with really lousy coverage (Arizona has one, and it is HMO with no pay at all if you go outside the plan).
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:36 pm 82. Rick Ballard:Jamie,
I often wonder if we who share a Judeo-Christian heritage can wrap our minds around the concept of “Inshallah” and “submission” to the extent necessary to understand Islamic theology. Both Jews and Christians have “free will” and “sin” concepts that I can’t seem to identify within Islam.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:39 pm 83. RogerA:Rick–It took me quite a while to grasp all the implications of inshallah–yes, at the most basic level, it means “as God wills.” But it is also much more fundamental, and means that it is impossible to take current action that affects future events–thus, there is NO human free will. There is nothing that humans can do that affects the future; thus, humans are exempted from responsibility for future action because of the actions they take in the present–If we in the west do not grasp the concept (s) of inshallah, we will never understand the Muslin world.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:51 pm 84. Samuel:Syl
I have just come to realize whether I like it or not, the biggest difference between us and Europe is their absence of a viable contingency of Social Conservatives . If you take away the Social Conservatives here then there just isn’t enough support for many things I champion, whether it is the War on Terror, Israel and many other things. They are what set us apart in the sum total of our morality whether we like it or not.
As I rode back from New York there was a younger looking girl that I presumed to be part of the protester group. She was reading the 911 report and started talking about how she had just returned from Africa helping a repressed population in Algeria. She went on about other people in other African nations and how she had formerly been in Morocco and other nations as well. She talked about how we needed to do more.
Now this girl was about the most beautiful WASP looking girl I have seen in a long time. She asked me if I was Jewish, I asked why, She answered, “Because you look Jewish” I laughed. Anyway what I found out actually blows all the stereotypes my naturally liberal mind out of the water. I just have to get over myself still.
I found out she had attended the Republican Convention, and coveted my floor pass and was a guest from the Montana delegation. She went to see Dubya speak, and boy she loved my story. (The protester however did not, a Republican Jew, I could feel the love let me tell you) I learned that she’s married and her husband is from Utah. They are religious (Mormon) and conservatives. I must add them to the all the other religious “do-gooders” I am coming to know, I am impressed.
When we choose to see such people through the narrow and quite frankly bigoted focus with thoughts of “Those that hate Gay People” or “That are intolerant” must be careful as it just isn’t that simple, we all have issues we are blind about. We must work out differences with patience. I will say thiis, these people put their money where there mouth is. They aren’t wasting time protesting Bush and giving “token” talk of the helping the oppressed. These people are the true progressives, THEY PUT LIBERALS TO SHAME!
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:52 pm 85. thibaud:As to Russia-US relations, of course there are bitter legacies on both sides. We fail to understand how badly Yeltsin, Clinton’s boon companion and the US’s favored boy throughout the 90s, screwed his people and damaged any real hope, for at least one generation of Russians, for a reasonably transparent, competent government with equality of economic opportunity.
Nonetheless, the stakes are far too great for both our nations to be mired in the past.
Forget democracy. We’re facing extinction if we don’t solve the Iran puzzle, and fast.
Here’s how an alliance with Russia can work, in very practical terms:
We lack: 1) humint and good contacts in, and permanent bases on the border of Iran. 2) Enough oil reserves to affect the benchmark oil price. 3) high-growth investment opportunities that can propel US growth beyond the 2-3% range, which is not enough to support Bush’s ownership society schemes and allow the baby boomers to retire before they’re 75, or 80 or….
Russia lacks: 1) $100 billion in needed investment into its rickety oil production and distrib’n infrastructure. 2) a competent, coherent, honest and well-led military that can crush the Chechen rebellion as should have occurred ten years ago. 3) help in stemming nuclear and other WMD proliferation. 4) contracts to prop up a nuclear industry that’s desperate for business so that it can meet its payroll and prevent more scientists and engineers from following Dr Khan’s example.
We have: an extraordinarily efficient, organized and well-led military with the most awesome technical arsenal ever seen; oil majors sitting on billions of $$$$ in cash and desperate for investment projects and new supply; a national budget with enough spare cash to buy out every Russian engineering/manufacturing company ten times over.
Russia has massive oil reserves in the Far East, 1/3 of the world’s natural gas, deep knowledge of the Iranians and the arabs and excellent intel assets on the ground; and most importantly, a long border with Iran.
Isn’t it obvious that we and Russia need each other? When will this nation buckle down and face the hard reality that democracy does not friends make and that geopolitical and other interests will dominate nations’ behavior?
Case in point: Blair and the rest of the EU will continue to make mischief in Iran. You’re a good guy, Tony, love you much but you need to keep Straw home and stop f***ing with our containment policy. And we need to get serious about Phase II in this war and develop a coherent, ruthlessly realistic Iran policy.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:53 pm 86. j. marzan:Since I get a sense that the US will do anything to Iran on the nuclear proliferation issue until after the elections, do you think there is enough time for Iran to finish a nuke within two months? (Sept-October 2004)
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:54 pm 87. Tom Holsinger:RogerA,
I have never in my life been outside the U.S., and only rarely out of California.
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:56 pm 88. RogerA:Tom H–you seem to have an excellent understanding of the Kingdom–I am happy to be able to confirm your understandings from my observations there!
Sep 3, 2004 - 9:59 pm 89. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):thibaud
The relationship with Russia is of necessity very complex. They have the economic needs to sell pretty much anything (like nuclear expertise).
They have energy resources (we do too, but a lot of it is off limits – Malibu for example).
They have pride.
They have an authoritarian system.
They have economic interests in North Korea and may be counter to our interests there.
They, like everyone, have oil interests that are different from ours and that effects their Iranian policy.
They have a largely defunct infrastructure.
So we need to deal with them (and we are dealing with them). With regard to Iran, we now have bases surrounding them. We have them better surrounded than we did Iraq.
I think the chances are good that Iran already has a nuke or two. That would be consistent with their aggressive statements, and with the delivery of HEU from North Korea last year.
Sep 3, 2004 - 10:09 pm 90. Rick Ballard:RogerA,
That agrees with my understanding. If generally true, there is no ethical concern for the actions of others and no need to point out the potential harm that these actions will cause to the community of believers. There would also, of necessity, be a very weak link in general logic regarding causative factors. It may take Russia leaving no stone sitting on top of another in Chechnya for a glimmer of understanding to reach a sufficient number of muslims. Putin is going to order a reprisal, he wouldn’t be able to keep office if he didn’t. I hope he cleans out the Pankisi Gorge while he’s at it.
Sep 3, 2004 - 10:14 pm 91. Jamie Irons:A lot of good thoughts tonight. Following thibaud’s reasoning about alliance with Russia to contain Iran, I just wonder if the legacy of suspicion and paranoia in Russian society about the west (and don’t get me wrong, I love Russians and Russian contributions to letters and science) can be overcome enough to make them useful and trustworthy allies. And what somebody (thibaud?) said about their reticence about depending on us in any way I think is also a huge problem.
And Rick, I think you’re right about the fatalism/”determinism” (not quite the right word) of Islam, and its pernicious effect on any sense of personal responsibility or a morality comprehensible to Jews and Christians…
Jamie Irons
Sep 3, 2004 - 10:26 pm 92. Samuel:John Moore
Well your example of being employed as to maintain Heatlh Insurance unfortunately is not unique. I have two people that really need to retire but they need insurance so I keep them on.
What is so true is as an individual of even a small business insurance is not affordable. This is why wages are falling. Why shouldn’t people be able to band together into insurance groups to achieve better rate? This is where Bush’s form of conservatism drives many nuts and as a natural liberal not as threatening to me. Also tort reform would bring the rate down big-time.
I actually believe this President understands the combinations of politics, realism and where we are as a nation. He has a good sense of how hard he can push,. He also want to set the marker on these policies before some liberal comes in and can start from scratch.
In Maryland (across the River from me) Governor Erlich (R) wants to legalize more gambling to help cover the budget shortfalls etc. Now many conservatives say no! Some socially conservative Democrats not either. Here is where I see realist conservatism like Bush displays comes in.
Erlich is the first Republican Governor since Spiro Agnew and he beat a Kennedy getting there! Like Bush he is savvy. Gambling is going to be a reality one day so he wants it done right. It comes down to this, the Democrats finally relented and said they would work with him (they would have done this anyway). Just one problem, they put forward something that made the gambling State Run, Erlich wants it to be Privatized and that is where I think the arguments are realistically headed.
Republicans need to realize what the realistic arguments are and this President gets it. It is not usually whether we are going to have certain government programs or not, it is the manner it is to be administered and implemented. So when this President uses the words, privatization, accountibility, choice and personal preference, he endeavors to apply conservative principles to governence. He knows we are not going to get rid the Department of Educastion, like it or not, so in short he wants to put conservative accountibily and responsibiliy to such. This leads to vouchers, testing, accountibiliy on School Systems, private or not. For me it makes conservatism very comfortable, for better or worse, it will build a generational political majority I guarantee.
Sep 3, 2004 - 10:31 pm 93. thibaud:Another point: we need a full-court, not just a Russian, press against Iran. That means we need intensive and creative diplomacy to bring India fully into our camp and to tease out the emerging Turkish-Israeli and Indo-Israeli strategic relationships.
We need every point of leverage possible to bring to bear against Iran. Given that any US administration simply doesn’t have the bandwidth to manage existing relationships AND a diplomatic revolution of the sort I’m proposing, it will be necessary to start scaling back our relationships with France and Germany.
Put it another way: ask yourselves which countries the US has more need of today– France and Germany, or Russia and India? If Iran’s manageable via the running farce that is the Straw mission, then perhaps France and Germany are more important. But if Iran is going to acquire nukes– and they show every intention of going the last mile to do so– then without question we have much greater need of a change in Russia and India’s posture toward us.
Sep 3, 2004 - 10:59 pm 94. Kevin P:Roger:
The time for the standard approaches to diplomacy is over. For too many years the west has allowed the Arab governments that support this activity either aggresively or passively to pretend that they are horrified by this type of warfare but do nothing to stop it or they promote it openly or covertly. We need to tell these governments that we will hold them responsible if they don’t stamp these groups out in their countries. If they won’t we need to eliminate them and use whatever means are available. To start I would tell Russia to take the gloves off. To let them slowly destroy these unstable governments that are making attempts to practice some form of democratic government is insane. The House of Saud, Iran, and Syria have been playing us for fools for the last 20 years and they need to be warned that our patience has worn out. They can either join the 21st century or they can be wiped out. When the killing of women and children has become SOP for any government of group they to to be eliminated. Period. Negotiating with vermin only helps spread the sickness. I don’t want to try to understand them. These activities are planned, they are not accidents. They will not stop until they are eliminated. Being nice to them will not work. They are trying to take us back to the dark ages and killing them is the only solution.
Sep 3, 2004 - 11:12 pm 95. Godzilla:My apologies if this has already been linked. Here is an almost surreal running blog that was on the scene. It looks as if at least one terrorist was lynched, and several may have been beaten to death. Nearly a minute by minute ticker tape.
http://www.logicandsanity.com/archives/2004/09/school_seized_i.html
It’s a very long page, you have to scroll down to get past the first few days of the school takeover.
Sep 3, 2004 - 11:25 pm 96. ambisinistral:RogerA,
Yes, Moslems are hopelessly faith based. However, lacking an Aquinas may be more systemic than just a wrong turn on the road. A couple of years ago I read a book about Ibn Batu (sp?) who was billed as the Moslem version of Marco Polo. He travelled from Algeria to Russia, Africa, and the Andaman Islands. He also claimed to visit to China, but the author seemed to think he just tacked that on from other traveller’s tales (basically, he botched a mission to deliver some gifts to China and had to cover his screwup).
What was striking about it all was he only once, and only for a day, left the Umma. He spent one very uncomfortable day in Christian Byzantium. Whereas Marco Polo expanded the horozons of Europe, Batu showed no curiosity of anything outside the Moslem’s known world. By the way, he was a religious scholar who spent most of his time insuring that Islamic law was evenly applied every where he travelled.
The West pulled in new ideas and synthesised them, while the Moslem world, even while expanding, built a barrier between itself and the outside world. And inside that barrier it sought to replicate identical submissive societies.
However, always squirming underneath the surface was human nature. To swing this post around to eastern Saudi Arabia. It has been years since I’ve read Burton’s Pilgramage To Mecca and Al Medina, but if I recall right in the time he visited the Haji was hardly the austere religious event it is today. There were bars, whorehouses, and all manner of boistrous tourist revelry. Part of the deal between the Sauds and the Wahabis was the Princes got the Kingdom and the Inmans got the Holy Cities. I wonder from time to time how much those eastern tribes would like their cash cow back?
At any rate, humanity wrapped in the hard shell of inflexible dogma. Ibn Batu could ignore the outside world, today Aquinas is forced upon the Moslem world — perhaps the winning front of the of the war we can’t see behind the horrors and atrocities.
BTW, I suspect you know much more about Islam than I do. I’m not debating, simply trying to put pieces together. If any of my ideas are askew, and I suspect some are, I would appreciate your input. And thanks for mentioning Ibn Khaldun’s book. I’ll have to try to find it.
Sep 3, 2004 - 11:38 pm 97. Sandy P:We also need to denuke frogistan.
Samuel, compassionate conservatism, we’ll help you get on your feet – give you the tools you need (and it’s going to cost us a bundle) but then don’t disappoint.
Sep 3, 2004 - 11:47 pm 98. Sandy P:If any of you visit Rantburg, IIRC, there was a somewhat lively discussion on thibaud’s suggestion of allies.
Sep 3, 2004 - 11:56 pm 99. Macker:Reminds me of that joke I heard a while back:
A Native American, a Muslim, and a cowboy were sitting in an airport terminal. The Native American began a conversation by saying, “once we were many, but now we are few.”
The Muslim replied, “That is sad, because once we were few, but now we are many!”
The cowboy chimed in. “That’s ’cause we ain’t started playin’ Cowboys and Muslims yet….”
Sep 4, 2004 - 4:59 am 100. ricpic:Random thoughts:
Who was the wise diplomat back in 19th century Europe who said, “Never over-estimate Russia, never under-estimate Russia?”
The under-coverage of the horror in Russia does not surprise me. Given human nature, horror isn’t really real until it happens to you and yours, in your home. Awful as this is to say, it will have to happen here before “the people” wake to the fact that this is total war and demand that total war be taken to the enemy.
To expect the Arab-Muslim World to cleanse its own house is folly.
Sep 4, 2004 - 6:29 am 101. Lola:There is a really good book that I urge all to read – Highlanders: A Journey to the Caucasus” by Yo’av Karny. This was written by an Israeli living in Washington at the time the book was published. He spent a lot of time in this region, interviewing people, and it’s a fascinating portrait into the mentality of the inhabitants. As an analogy – those of you in US may know about the Hatfields and McCoys. Well, that’s the mentality one finds so much in this region.
It’s really interesting how he was able to travel in this area back in the 1990s. I suspect he would not be welcome in certain quarters now. And, looking at his surname and his dedication to his parents, it looks like his ancestors are Caucasus Jews.
Sep 4, 2004 - 6:50 am 102. M. Simon:Some one please explain how a regime which has promised to nuke Israel as soon as it gets nukes in order to kill as many Jews as possible can be contained?
Especially since we know they are sending men to Iraq for what amount to suicide missions.
In addition they said they know they will get a dose of nukes back but it will be worth it.
What kind of containment policy can work in such circumstances?
There is only one policy that can work in such circumstances: regime change.
Sep 4, 2004 - 7:02 am 103. Jamie Irons:I went to bed at 10:30 PM, and woke up at 6:30 AM; the conversation never stopped!
I sometimes wonder if Islam, or a major “sector” of it, isn’t in the final analysis a very prolonged (14 centuries long!) version of those phenomena which fall under the rubric of “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds,” like “the Tulipomania” or our own Salem Witch Trials, that simply has to run its course.
I was rereading Ralph Peters’ “Spotting the Losers: Seven Signs of Non-Competitive States” (Parameters, Spring 1998). Here are the “seven deadly sins” by which he identifies those states, cultures or societies which have doomed themselves to being left behind in the present “globalized” and highly competitive world:
Restrictions on the free flow of information
The subjugation of women
Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure
The extended family or clan (tribe) as the basic unit of social organization
Domination by a restrictive religion
Low value of education
Low prestige assigned to work
*
Obviously, our enemies suffer from all these failures in spades. And to me their chief vulnerability lies in the second sin: the subjugation of women.
One of the most astounding things to me is how (the majority of) purported “feminists” in the West have so totally ignored the subjugation of their sisters in the Arab/ Muslim world.
Shameful. Where are the feminists marching to denounce the horrors that are the subject of this thread?
Oh, I forgot. Bush = Hitler.
Jamie Irons
Sep 4, 2004 - 7:09 am 104. M. Simon:How ’bout It is time for the Western World to face Reality?
Sep 4, 2004 - 7:17 am 105. Matthew Cromer:322 dead and counting.
I can’t even look at the pictures. I watched the videos of Danny Pearl and the Zarkawi beheadings, but I cannot look at the dead children.
We are not far from the use of nuclear weapons in Chechnya. I can feel it in my bones.
Sep 4, 2004 - 7:44 am 106. M. Simon:Faust
Not only is it OUR young men against the young men of Islam, it is also our Honor and our Character and our Values. And if Allah is on the side of Islam he may turn his head with a jerk of anxiety when even he hears us coming. We mean to win.
In my own opinion I think the Koran is a fraud and arose from a deranged mind. I think Mohammed was a murderer and a deceiver. I think his Religion of Peace is absolutely rotten and riddled with contradictions. I think we are going to take the son of a bitch.
History doesnít care if your mother loves you. The laws of Physics donít care if you have a nice smile. Ballistics is a precise science and your skull is the same as any other. Bullets have no friends. What matters is what kind of a man you are. The best man wins. The man who fights and doesn’t run, the man who keeps his word and fulfills his training and supports his friends and his allies. The man who wins won’t be an Arab.
But Values spread throughout a Culture produce themselves. The purpose of a thing is itself. American Values have carried us all this far and we have a fine record of Success and Achievement. Our Values will not desert us now. But Islam has a thousand years of failure and its young men when they are put to the test, crap their pants. They hide behind human shields and dress up like women. They can outnumber a Jew or an American fighting man ten to one and still fold like wet tacos. Islam produces out of what it is….. and it produces poverty of values and tainted achievement which bear within themselves a ripe harvest of corruption and decay.The reason Arabs lose wars is because Islam is rotten.
Sep 4, 2004 - 7:52 am 107. Jamie Irons:Speaking of Ralph Peters, take a look at When the Killers Come for the Kids (NY Post), referenced this morning on InstaPundit.
Jamie Irons
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:24 am 108. Catalonia:Jamie,
Interesting list re:Ralph Peters. A couple of points, however. One is that Muslims (Arabs) do indeed value education, but 6 out of 7 is still a sure indicator of pathology. Another is that Ralph Peters’ thesis is a top-down analysis. He identifies correlation, not causation. That’s useful to a point, but not helpful in determining solutions or future trends.
Regarding feminist silence on the issue of subjugation of women in the Muslim world, the simple answer is: Abortion. Feminism has devolved into a single-issue movement. The entire mindset is geared towards preserving abortion, and all else is secondary. The further afield the typical university feminist wanders from domestic abortion preservation (read, mindless support of the Democrats) the more rapidly her political acumen disintegrates, as is the case with all single-issue mechanoids (why investigate other phenomenon when everything revolves around opposing Republicans?). Wallowing in victimization does not equip one to deal with complex geo-political realities, either, so it’s best to focus on the domestic and pretend nothing else exists.
I love the commentors on this site, by the way. Wish I had more time to contribute!
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:28 am 109. Warthog:Good article by Mark Steyn who would not vote for Kerry because “he takes himself more seriously than the War.”
Also linked to above and worth repeating is the Ralph Peters article titled “When the Killers Come For Kids.” The operative quote is “Slaughtering the innocents violates a universal human taboo.” The personal accounts coming out of Russia display a shockingly cruel pattern of behaviour. Whether this depravity is peculiar to the Islamists involved or is endemic of a larger cultural pattern is the question that all of us must resolve. It is not an overstatement to say that civilization as we know it will cease to exist if the many or the few, as the case may be, that find glory in the murder of children continue to exist.
Is there any reason to pretend that Palestinian “freedom fighters” should be excluded from this mix? What amount of slaughter, and of whom, will it take to force the public consciousness to accept that the global defeat of Islamism trumps the regional right to self-determination, autocratic sovereignty, and any legitimate claim to victim status?
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:32 am 110. Sandy P:Some interesting background from The Manila Times, via Lucianne:
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2004/sept/05/yehey/opinion/20040905opi4.html
But that last paragraph is just delusional.
I believe Russia, China, and Thailand are also interested in how we deal with Islamic militancy. Solving the problem in Mindanao can prove to the Thais, Russians, and Chinese that the war could be won peacefully. The key to doing so would be in identifying the Islamists, who could hardly be reasoned with, from the nationalists.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:32 am 111. RogerA:Catalonia–I agree that many Muslims value education–The close one is to their tribal roots, however, the less the value–I refer specifically to the Saudis who are characterized by many other arabs as “arrogant and ignorant.” and indeed much of the foundation of Islamic education consists of memorization of the Koran–Howard Gardner, in his otherwise flakey tome on Multiple Intelligences, points this out. It is not uncommon for pre teen boys to have memorized the entire Koran–I do believe memorization has its purposes, but both the process and what is memorized is signficant–and even in Al Azar, much of the teaching is in the form of scholastic disputations. I generalize here, of course–many Arabs are enrolled in higher education and yes, education is valued; I think it necessary to disaggregate specific groups in Islam to understand more fully the impact of this particular mode of education.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:38 am 112. shel:Jamie and Catalonia–
1. There are all different kinds of feminists. The ones you are talking about are the radical fringe, as there is a radical fringe in every movement and every societal group. A feminist, please remember, is actually anyone who supports equal social, economic, and political rights for women. I agree with nearly everything that is said on this blog, I plan to vote for Bush in November, and…I’m a feminist.
2. I have heard several angry comments from men on various blogs wondering why “the feminists” aren’t more vocal about Muslim oppression of women. I’ve heard no comments wondering why African Americans aren’t marching in the streets to protect the Arab oppression of African blacks, as in the Sudan. What’s the dif?
shel
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:41 am 113. Occam's Beard:CNN’s coverage of the Russian atrocity was infuriating. The talking head consistently referred to the terrorists as “hostage-takers,” although I for one believe we could go out on a limb and categorize them as “terrorists” (although I hate to jump to conclusions; maybe they should be called “alleged terrorists”).
He also forgot to mention that they are Muslims. Apart from that, the coverage was comprehensive.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:45 am 114. Jamie Irons:In re Arabs valuing education
My beloved sister, who has lived all her adult life in Morocco, and is as loony a moonbat as could be found (but also highly intelligent and a wonderful person, just badly misguided and blind to a huge segment of reality), pointed out to me in when I visited her in 1974, long, long before the present difficulties, that all the Moroccan children were being “educated” in what she called (I don’t think she made up the term) “blab schools,” where they rocked back and forth all day reciting the memorized Koran. That worried her.
But she has so far been unable to draw the obvious connections between this form of “education” and Islamofascism. Sad.
Jamie Irons
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:47 am 115. Tom Holsinger:Matthew Cromer,
Not nukes. Nerve gas sprayed from the air.
http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=1051-031103A
“This gives a sense of Greek tragedy, with its dialectic of hubris and nemesis, to what has been unfolding in the Islamic world. If they continue to use terror against the West, their very success will destroy them. If they succeed in terrorizing the West, they will discover that they have in fact only ended by brutalizing it. And if subjected to enough stress, the liberal system will be set aside and the Hobbesian world will return – and with its return, the Islamic world will be crushed. Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.”
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:48 am 116. lindenen:Actually, pre-911 feminists were against horrid regimes like the Taliban. They changed their tune when Bush&co indicated they were actually going to do something about the horror. Help the women of Afghanistan! Just don’t get rid of the Taliban with bombs! Get rid of the Taliban with happy thoughts! I think it was Susan Sontag who made the biggest backflip on this topic.
I used to think I was a feminist. I still believe in equal rights for women, but I don’t think most feminists believe in equal rights anymore. They seem to be more like female supremacists.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:48 am 117. Navy Mom:Matthew,
I DID look at the pictures of the slaughtered children. In fact, I believe that all Americans have to look. We have to see the effect of terror. Too often the media “protects” the sensibilities of Americans. They know best what we should see, when we should see it, and how they should interpret it for us. This brutal killing of innocents (and innocence) is a wake-up call to all who believe that it couldn’t happen to us here.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:48 am 118. shel:I meant “protest” not “protect”…damn…
Oh, well, I’ve been reading these comments long enough to learn to interpret people’s misspellings
hopefully others have too!
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:53 am 119. Sandy P:–The reason Arabs lose wars is because Islam is rotten.–
There’s a lot of Arab culture wrapped up into that. That was driven home to me on a now- defunct chat room when someone was writing a screed on Islam and said Jesus’ mother, Mary was Islamic because she covered her hair or some such nonsense.
I pointed out to her that Mary lived 700 years before Mohammed and many they adopted Jewish dress, therefore they are Jewish?
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:55 am 120. Sandy P:shel, I don’t want to be equal, why would I want to lower myself?
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:56 am 121. M. Simon:Think of how history has prepared America for this test.
Suppose Gore had won. Suppose he had impeachable screwed up.
Lieberman
Sep 4, 2004 - 9:27 am 122. Catalonia:RogerA,
I’ll have to take your word re:the Saudis. I don’t believe, however, that Muslim illiteracy is ipso facto indicative of general opposition to readin’, writin’, and ‘rithmetic.
Shel,
While your definition of feminism applies, it is nevertheless only a dictionary definition. And while very few are left in the West who would argue against social, economic, and political rights for women, there are only a few relics around who still truly believe that women in the West do not have essentially equal social, economic, and political rights. Those were yesterday’s battles, which is essentially my point in that there is only one great battle left to fight domestically: Preserving abortion. (That and preserving feminist as a quasi-religious identifying moniker, sort of a Silver Star with combat ‘F’ in the culture wars!
And yes, I’m well aware that Silver Stars shouldn’t be receiving a combat anything.)
Anyway, I’ve read plenty of comments complaining about the lack of demonstrations demanding that something be done about Sudan. That is a straw man (er, straw person!).
Now let’s not get into it about feminism and begin a litany of imperfections as any indication of the need for neverending continuation of yesterday’s movements, please. The main proposition is that many Western feminists are not serious about changing Muslim societies because domestic issues (abortion) trump all else. In other words, the average feminist must oppose an aggressive policy of change in the Middle East if it is implemented by a Republican president because that president will select conservative justices, which makes it more likely that Roe v. Wade will be overturned and the matter left to the states. This has been the case for at least a generation; it’s not something new or even particularly insightful, although many people seem to forget this.
(Caveat: I am pro-choice)
Sandy P,
shel, I don’t want to be equal, why would I want to lower myself?
Heh. That’s what my wife always says!
She’s one smart lady.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming ….
Sep 4, 2004 - 9:36 am 123. shel:>>Now let’s not get into it about feminism and begin a litany of imperfections as any indication of the need for neverending continuation of yesterday’s movements, please.
Sep 4, 2004 - 10:09 am 124. Jamie Irons:shel
I apologize. I don’t think I said what I meant carefully. I was angry about the events in N. Ossetia, and when I get angry I often get self-righteous and offensive.
Sorry.
Jamie Irons
Sep 4, 2004 - 10:32 am 125. shel:Jamie–s’okay–you’re one of the least self-righteous and offensive people I’ve ever seen post
now that I’ve finally signed up and am not lurking any more I will probably respond with loud “yeah!”s to a lot of your posts!
shel
Sep 4, 2004 - 10:52 am 126. Occam's Beard:Reality therapy is definitely in order for our homegrown friends on the left.
Check out the postings at DemocraticUnderground for musings attributing the Russian outrage to everything but its (ahem) root cause.
Sep 4, 2004 - 11:01 am 127. Jamie Irons:shel
Thanks for forgiving me.
Your saying:
put me in mind of John Ashbery’s And Ut Pictura Poesis Is her Name
Jamie Irons
Sep 4, 2004 - 11:24 am 128. Syl:Jamie Irons to Ambisinistral
“I like your analysis, and I hope you’re right. What you say about the curious ambivalence of the passive Muslims to the murderous ones is suggestive and intriguing.”
Yes.
However, I have one word (name) to bring us back to reality when we speak of muslims or Islam.
Omar
Have we learned nothing from the lessons of Iraq? A free people now, the majority of whom want NOTHING TO DO WITH RADICAL ISLAM.
If we can free Syria do you think it would be any different for the majority of Syrians?
The same with the Iranians! And I suspect the Saudi’s as well. Even Pakistan!
When we cry out against the supposed apathy of the ‘moderate’ muslim, we never take into account the fact that so many do not live in a free society with a free press and exchange of ideas that we take for granted.
Unfortunately the liberation of these people will pit them against the extremists in their midst and the bloodshed will be deadly. I think this is what the world is justifiably afraid of.
But it has to happen.
Liberty Century!
Sep 4, 2004 - 12:28 pm 129. jerry:Between work, the world cup of hockey and Golf I have undoubtedly missed the bulk of this discussion. However, I would like to make a few observations on expected aftermath of the Islamicist attack in Russia.
First, the Isalmic world has it sights set on destroying the major powers of its cultural rivals. Right now it has targeted Bzantine Civilization (Russia), the center of Latin Civilization (the Anglosphere led by the US) and Hindu civilization (India). It is important that these three nations must come together and coordinate a common defense of our respective cultures.
Second, Western Europe and its EU members are hopelessly lost in the struggle. The only nations on the continent that truly understand what is at state are the Byzantine States in Southern Europe (Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania).
Third, our own self-generated mythology of the 1990’s Balkan War stand in our way to understanding what was going on in the Balkans after the breakup of Yugoslavia. The media and cultural elites created an Oppressor-Victim model to label the Serbs as evil while the poor saintly Muslims were under attack. In reality, the Serbs (and the Croats as well) understood that the Bosnians wished to create a Sharia based Muslim state which placed the Bosnian Serb and Croat populations under their control with dhimii status. The Albanians were either Muslim nacro-terrorists or Radical Islamicists. What we are just beginning to understand in the West is what the Serbs understood through years of cultural experience. Islam is deadly to other cultures.
Fourth if we are to survive this struggle we will eventually have to take the some of the same kind of measures that the Serbs did against the Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims. This is a zero sum game. The alternative is to see our cultures slowly subverted and destroyed by the nihilistic forces of radical Islam.
Sep 4, 2004 - 2:48 pm 130. pst314:“Golda Meir pegged it those many years ago, ‘There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews.’”
A very good point, but that is only the beginning of a chance of peace. There will actually be peace only when the Arabs cease to hate.
Sep 4, 2004 - 4:35 pm 131. MeTooThen:rod,
Wow.
And this:
Via LGF:
“…According to one of the hostages terrorists raped some older students.”
It has been said that we a people, or as a generation, have become “desensitized” to the horrors that are the now, routine, mass murders at the hands of radical Islamic terrorists.
If the West as a Civilization, does not, or cannot, respond to this atrocity with the utmost fury and determination to stop terrorism at its source, then we will have failed all previous and future generations to protect what has been given us.
Sep 4, 2004 - 8:38 pm 132. lindenen:Update on the Sophie’s Choice mother. Her daughter’s alive!
Sep 4, 2004 - 9:40 pm 133. lindenen:Here’s the actual LATimes article.
Sep 4, 2004 - 10:10 pm 134. richard mcenroe:Oh, yeah, Islam learns…
Sep 5, 2004 - 8:03 am 135. richard mcenroe:Jaime Irons ó After I saw my first “Women Against the Shah” march in NYC in the 70’s, I knew the Western feminism movement cared nothing for women of color around the world.
After Hillary trumpeted the success of the “Women’s Conference” she attended in China, a conference not one Chinese woman was permitted to attend, I knew nothing had changed in thirty years…
Sep 5, 2004 - 8:08 am 136. Charlie (Colorado):you’re one of the least self-righteous and offensive people I’ve ever seen post
Now wait a minute. I’m not offensive. Goddamnit.
Sep 5, 2004 - 9:26 am 137. Kevin P:Jerry:
This response is late but you have hit the nail on the head. The Islamo fascists do believe that they can not co-exist next to the western world. Any talk of negotiation or mutual understanding is useless because they have a firm belief that there worldview cannot survive as long as the western world exists. It is their way or nothing. When Lenin and his small band of cronies took over Russia they sytated from the start that communism and capitalism cannot co-exist in the same world together. They started their policy of “Neither peace nor war”, which was a system of constant struggle until capitalism was eliminated. They knew they would make noises about peace but that was only to get breathing space ubtil the next battle could be fought. The Islamo-Fascists think the same way. We need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Sep 6, 2004 - 11:04 am