108 Comments

1. Charlie (Colorado):

More interesting stuff: turns out that the memos that the White House “didn’t dispute” were faxed to them from CBS — not released by the WH originally.

See, eg, Kevin Drum’s post (!!)

If they really are forged, we’ve just seen a classic rope-a-dope — the WH let CBS run with them, figuring that someone else would point out they were forged. (Glaringly.)

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:10 pm 2. Rick Ballard:

Man, Roger, you’re running behind today. Charles debunked the CBS scam hours ago. Next you’ll be telling us the Kitty Kelly’s sole source has repudiated everthing attributed to her.

BTW – Have you published August stats yet?

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:10 pm 3. lindenen:

Well, Sharon Bush denies Kitty Kelley’s account.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:20 pm 4. Jeff:

This is going to be huge.

It looks like there’s so much traffic that LGF and Powerline are damn near impossible to reach.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:24 pm 5. Charlie (Colorado):

CNS News is now reporting the forged-docs story, with three typography experts named and directly quoted.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:26 pm 6. Charlie (Colorado):

Drudge now has it above the banner… including a link to powerline, which probably explains the contention.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:27 pm 7. Knucklehead:

I’m thoroughly enjoying this.

The Cybercast News Service now has report on this quoting “three independent typography experts”. They find the “th” superscript the most suspicious item. There were high-end, very expensive, typewriters and word processing systems available back then but, according to these typograhy experts, no typewriter or word processor was capable of the superscripts.

Speaking of Kevin Drum’s post linked to above… he notes that the memos the WH “released” were simply copies of what CBS had faxed to them, but then goes on to tell us that’s all “fluff” and wonder what other memos the WH is hiding! Huh?

“See there! You had those memos you didn’t release!”

“Uhh… these were just faxed to us by CBS.”

“What other memos are you hiding from us!”

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:29 pm 8. Knucklehead:

Its a riot. A feeding frenzy. Powerline had it, LGF, Kerry Spot, the Corner, Roger…

How much more can they take!?!? Wouldn’t it be fun to be a fly on the wall over at CBS News?

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:32 pm 9. penwil:

Holy cow. This forgery story went from a trickle to a deluge in a matter of a couple of hours. If this proves true–and amazingly enough it is looking increasingly likely–then CBS/ 60 Minutes will never be able to live this down.

Indeed, now that experts are out there actually claiming that the document is a forgery, it will be interesting to see how the other MSM outlets react. Will the temptation to embarrass a competitor prove too much for them to resist? And once FOX breaks it, will MSMBC and CNN be far behind?

And of course the $64 million question is who did the forgery?

If I was part of the Kerry campaign I’d be having a stroke long about now. Because even if they had nothing to do with it, they’re going to be guilty by association.

What did Kerry know and when did he know it?

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:39 pm 10. Tom O'Bedlam:

Looks like at least one of the signatures is a forgery too:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210987/posts?page=187#187

You may have to scroll down.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:40 pm 11. jerry:

knucklehead:

This is more then embarrassing. If these are forgeries and CBS is witting then I suspect they have broken the law. This could be networking ending if the Bush Adminstration chooses to push the issue.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:42 pm 12. Rick Ballard:

Knucklehead,

I wonder if they’ll draw straws or cast lots to see who gets to tell Gunga Dim that he blew another one. For sure he’s not bright enough to figure it out for himself. They’ll probably use up a weeks worth of crayons and Safeway bags before he figures out the frequency on this one.

Looks like Kevin Drum has too many r’s in his name, too.

Who fed them the phony material? Isn’t that more important than how stupid they were to buy it? It would be nice to see a solid DNC connection for this. Just to keep it in the family.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:43 pm 13. Knucklehead:

Penwil,

It will be interesting to see how the MSM reacts if CBS turns out to have been duped. The Boston Globe took their article from 60 Minutes. I believe the NYT did something similar, but I’m too lazy to look it up. NPR apparently did something from CBS’s lead.

How many millions of people have heard about these “new documents”? Will the MSM go out and make sure that they give as much coverage to the “forgery” story if it pans out?

And just today I was listening to a friend decry blogs as “unfettered”. If this be unfettered, give us more

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:45 pm 14. Charlie (Colorado):

Hey, Rick, to be fair to Kevin — God, first I’m defending Kerry, now Kevin Drum, what’s the world coming to? — he did continue to investigate, publish what he found out, and apologized for the error.

Get AP to do that.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:46 pm 15. Matt Evans:

Honestly, I’m utterly shocked by this entire memo thing. I shouldn’t be, I guess, because like most of you, I’ve come to the conclusion that the MSM are mostly schills for the democratic party. But to think that 60 friggin minutes (which like it or hate it, has been a staple of American TV for decades) didn’t take the time to even check the authenticity of these friggin documents when they were checked and debunked by folks on the internet in a matter of hours ??? This just floors me.

And worse, they’ll get away with it. I do not share Roger’s faith that this incident is another “nail” in the MSM coffin – primarily because it will simply get no play in the MSM, period. While readers of Roger’s blog, Powerline, LGF, Instapundit et al. have the benefit of extremely smart people doing work to vet these vicious lies, the vast majority of Americans get their news from network, cable and worst, MSN (its the homepage of champions) or AOL (does anyone still use AOL? I’ve noticed their news headlines have been incredibly anti-Bush- I’m probably going to cancel my service over that). The MSM is only going to wake up when they lose significant amounts of viewers/readers/browsers AND that loss is publicized by other news services. And the problem is, for every Fox News, there’s 10 AP or Al Reuters.

Hell, if I was Fox, I’d start running ads along the lines of “Fox News – we actually check to see if a document is authentic before proclaiming it gospel”.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:49 pm 16. Bostonian:

I love the internet!!!

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:53 pm 17. Silicon valley Jim:

‘And just today I was listening to a friend decry blogs as “unfettered”. If this be unfettered, give us more ’

Amen to that.

Just think of it. Somebody wants to discredit the President’s service so badly that he’ll resort to forgery. That same somebody isn’t even smart enough to create a forgery that will withstand a few minutes’ scrutiny by a blogger. CBS News’s “professional journalists”, however, can’t spot that it’s a forgery.

Thank God for the blogosphere.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:54 pm 18. Knucklehead:

Oh please, oh please, oh please… I promise I’ll stop being an agnostic/atheist if CBS has been hoodwinked, bamboozled, bilked, buffaloed, conned, defrauded, double-crossed, duped, ensnared, entrapped, fleeced, fooled, gouged, gyped, hoaxed, lead on, Murphied, outwitted, put on, robbed, scammed, screwed, sucked in, swindled, taken for, taken in, tricked, or two-timed.

Please tell me Dan Rather was personally involved in negotiating for the documents, got CBS to cough up twice what they thought they had to (and make it millions!), and then shooed away the experts sent in for the doc check. Maybe there really is a God in Heaven.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:55 pm 19. Alan:

This can not possibly be true…CBS enlisted experts to verify the authenticity of those memos. CBS has a history of going to great lengths to prove their version of the truth…I remember them even interviewing a rocket scientist proving that arrows and punch holes are hard to line up on butterfly ballots.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:56 pm 20. bkw:

the blogosphere is like SETI@home … only for politics.

sometimes i feel like the search for integrity is just as futile as the search for ETs.

if it wasnt for blowing their sources, the govt should make all docs avail, and let the blogosphere see what it can dig up process and find.

it’s the end of the cray centralized supercomputer — welcome to the age of the cluster!

heh … a beowulf cluster of bloggers indeed.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:58 pm 21. Rick Ballard:

Jerry,

“This could be networking ending”

Not a chance. Watch the DNC/MSM agitprop machine go into overdrive claiming to be witless dupes.

Who can argue with them?

Charlie (C),

Kevin has been pimping the TANG story for over a year. There is no way I’m cutting any slack for a jerk who has deliberately misinterpreted the number of documents that he has. He’s as big a partisan shill as Begala and as much of a “journalist” as Joshie. If he labeled what he wrote “opinion”, fine, but he doesn’t.

Sep 9, 2004 - 12:58 pm 22. penwil:

Knucklehead,

Once I would have said that the NYT and NPR at least would turn and dump all the blame onto CBS in a red hot minute rather then let their own integrity be violated by association. But they’ve already so compromised that integrity this election cycle, who knows how they will react at this point. I’m not sure that it matters anyway, though. My own opinon, based on my years in pubic relations doing damage control on just these type of stories is that it’s too hot to contain.

The only thing that will kill this story now is if the documents can be proven not to be forgeries, or if enough “experts” can be dragged forward to muddy the situation enough that the other networks and cable news are reluctant to touch it.

It’s going to be fun to see how it plays out. If the swfitboat vets story didn’t wake old media up to the power of the blogosphere, than this certainly will. The speed with which this is happening is both exciting and kinda scary. It went from, Gee, this looks fishy, I wonder if it’s a forgery, to darn close to definitive proof in practically an instant.

Heh. CBS is sooooo busted! (maybe)

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:05 pm 23. Cap'n Billy:

Here are a couple more bits of evidence. Having been one in the early 60’s, I don’t recall ever seeing 1/LT written as 1st Lt. It was always written as the former. Also, in the 04 May 1972 document I notice that the 1st Lt. appears as a typewriter of the time would type it, but the “111th F.I.S.” near the bottom definitely shows the normal Word formatting (small elevated “th”). You may bypass this formatting by placing a space between the “1″ and the “st” and then backspacing, and that is what the forger evidently did with the “1st Lt. but neglected to do that with the “111th F.I.S.” near the bottom of the memo. That “th” is the clincher, since, as the experts have noted, no machine of that era was capable of typing that character in that fashion.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:06 pm 24. chuck:

So,

who will be first to blame the forgeries, assuming they are forgeries, on the RNC? I don’t have the heart to go browse DU, but it can’t be long.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:07 pm 25. Knucklehead:

I feel like The Penguin when he captured Catwoman (Hey, it’s my fantasy so don’t bother with corrections!)

Check out INDC (whoever the heck they are) Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake?. (from the Kerry Spot).

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:07 pm 26. Matt Evans:

I have 100 bucks that says the McCauliffs’s response is going to be “Karl Rove gave the fake memo’s to CBS and is responsible for the forgery in order to make Kerry and the democrats look bad. We demand that President Bush condemn the White House staff and Karl Rove for releasing these false documents in an attempt to besmirch the good name of John F. Kerry”.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:08 pm 27. Percy Dovetonsils:

Remember the old saying, “If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.” I do pray it’s a forgery, but the story is so mouth-wateringly delicious, it probably isn’t.

If it is a forgery, look at the playbook of the SwiftVets for ideas on how to get the media to pay attention.

And just thinking out loud here, but why couldn’t 527-like ads be taken out to promote this story – not necessarily to benefit Bush, but as an attack on the MSM? You’d probably have to wait until after the election, as the ads would be backing Bush’s account of the past, but still… I wonder if the Wall Street Journal or Fox would run them.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:09 pm 28. jerry:

Rick:

I don’t call it network ending because market forces. 60 minutes has survived a huge nunber of fraudulent stories over its history. What I am talking about is revocation of broadcasting license for violating election laws as well as the broadcasting code. After the election the RNC or Judicial Watch could file suite in Federal Court to revoke CBS’s broadcasting license. CBS cannot stand behind the first amendment like a newspaper because they granted the right to broadcast by the government. This right is not unconditional. If the use the license for an illegal activity they lose it. The can scream first amendment until they are blue in the face but it wonít cut in court if it shown that they knowingly used forged government documents to influence an election. Memos to record are considered official documents.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:09 pm 29. David [.net]:

News sites haven’t caught up yet. They are still digging the hole deeper as we speak.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:15 pm 30. Cardinal Fang:

Got a day of tommorow and two sixpacks of beer, I’m gonna have a hell of a time following this story.

Enjoy.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:17 pm 31. penwil:

Thinking about it some more . . .

I don’t think we should underestimate the power that good old fashioned competitiveness might end up playing in this story. The three networks are in a knockdown, dragout fight with each other for an every shrinking market share, and the networks themselves are competing against the cable news channels, which are in large part responsible for that shrinkage. Millions upon millions of dollars in advertising revenue are at stake here. Jobs are at stake. I’m just not sure that NBC and ABC will pass on a chance to seriously damage the credibility of a competitor. Don’t you think Peter Jennings would just love to be able to put the smackdown on Dan Rather in tomorrow’s evening news? And the cables, who’ve been eating away at the networks’ market share as it is, are going to love a story that makes a fool out of one of the “big three.”

It’s all predicated on whether or not the documents can be proven to be forgeries, but if they can, then my bet is that cable TV certainly, and most likely ABC and NBC will run the story.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:25 pm 32. james:

Could be it be those Texicans have pulled one CBS, like they’ed rather see a Texan in White House than a Yankee?

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:27 pm 33. WichitaBoy:

another hefty nail has just been driven in the mainstream media’s already well-battened-down coffin.

I hate to be a party-pooper, but naaah.

They’re not even in the coffin yet.

Every day somebody brings the local bird-cage liner–which consists solely of AP stories, a little lite local news, and some utterly predictable left-wing commentary–and drops it into my company’s break room, where people read it intermittently throughout the day. Lesson number one: cheap and easy paper beats expensive and tedious computer screens.

Last weekend I found myself in a motel room flipping through the channels. There was no internet connection. The news was all about hurricanes; I had no idea anything had happened in Russia at all till I got back home and started reading Roger’s blog. Lesson number two: watching the boob tube is a lot more relaxing than reading blogs (in more ways than one).

The other day I was sitting in a bookstore and somebody had left a copy of Pravda on the Hudson lying around. Since I didn’t have to pay for it (which I now categorically refuse to do), I picked it up and poked through it. Sure, it had the usual lies and distortions but it had a lot more too. All sorts of fascinating articles about faraway events or books of which I had been totally unaware, written by people whose talents can give Mark Steyn a run for his money. Blogs, like gossip, tend to focus only on the latest buzz, without a lot of depth, and not usually written so well. Lesson number three: the print media can still really shine. They’re paid to make it shine. A little cash can go a long way.

Read through a few blogs. Blogs have the huge advantage over traditional media of possessing hyperlinks. If you’re using Firefox, you can simply middle click on the link and have the linked article appear right next to the current article in a tab; you don’t miss a beat while reading the first article (superb technique for reading Instapundit and Betsy’s Page). You can check the facts side by side with the interpretation; flip back and forth. But examine those hyperlinks a little more closely and you’ll soon see that most of them lead back to the MSM sooner or later, usually sooner. Lesson number four: blogs are poor at producing original content.

Everyman may be a publisher, but who wants to read most of the dreck?

What blogs are extremely good at, I think, is providing an alternative to the monolith of the MSM, an alternative which allows many consciousness, not just a few elite consciousnesses, to participate. We’re no longer the 60-Minutes-controlled-zombies we once were. It’s very liberating. Blogging is something like FM radio in its earliest days, or maybe CB radio in its heyday. It’s democratic in the truest sense. It’s a glimpse through a window to a strange and beautiful land very different from the one the MSM zombies all around us still inhabit. But only the Elect are willing and able to look through the window. Most folks continue to believe that Pravda on the Hudson is the Word of (that entity which cannot be named).

Nail in the coffin? Naaaah.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:35 pm 34. ambisinistral:

If this is a forgery it will become news. Some of us have opined that if things get bad enough for Kerry the MSM will abandon him to try to salvage their reputations. Not holding my breath, but this might be the tipping point where the MSM, already increasingly critical of the faltering Kerry campaign, does a flip and turns on him.

On a side note, I was reading a long thread on a liberal board about this. They started out jubulant when the news broke. By the end of the thread it was sinking in that this did look like a forgery. They were spinning the theory that Microsoft had modeled Word’s look after this super-dooper 1960’s type writer — at that point I was laughing too hard to continue reading.

I must be depressing to be a fervent Kerry supporter…

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:37 pm 35. ganzo azul:

This first inkling that these documents were forged started appearing late morning, around 11:30 am EST. Here it is 4:30 pm EST and the New York Times is still featuring the article Documents Suggest Special Treatment for Bush in Guard prominently on their web site. They lend credibility to the Killian documents by writing [White House Communications Director] “Mr. Bartlett did not dispute the authenticity of the memos.” Four hours later this article leaves the authenticity of the documents unchallenged. Why the reluctance to ammend the article to stating the documents have been called into question?

I don’t understand, they chose to reprint allegations as news within hours of its broadcast simply because it aired on 60 Minutes yet they wouldn’t touch the Christmas-in-Cambodia story for weeks. To my knowledge, the NYT has yet to assign a reporter to ascertain the history of covert operations by crews of Swift Boats in 1969. What gives?

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:42 pm 36. Rick Ballard:

Jerry,

If “knowingly” could be proven it would be an interestig case. It appears that CBS may have gone to the trouble of authenticating the signature (which is meaningless unless you’re dealing with an original) and extrapolating that authentication to the document itself. At the absolute minimum, Rather should walk the plank. My money is staying on a “witless dupes” defense for the time being. The first exculpatory reporting hasn’t even appeared yet so “quiet burial” appears the first line of defense. It didn’t happen if they don’t report it.

Penwil,

There will be no rebellion within the collective. The political connotations of the story require a unified front. No one will break ranks for petty commercial concerns, they are seving a “Higher Purpose”, dontcha know. Solidariety Forever!

Besides, the DNC would cut off their “play” money if the true story was allowed to get out.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:44 pm 37. so it begins:

Dan Rather’s response:

I’m an old man who was taken by a scam. I thought they were such nice boys. I don’t know what’s more embarassing – being mugged of my credibility or allowing myself to be tricked. (trickle down cheek) I guess not everyone can be as trustworthy as Saddam Hussein. There’ll never be an interview like that, again. (pitty me).

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:47 pm 38. Knucklehead:

Witchita,

So why not combine what’s left of the MSM’s skillset (production, editing, stylistic consistency) and marry that with the Blogosphere’s rabid pitbull “fact checking”? I use scare quotes around “fact checking” not because I believe the Blogosphere doesn’t do it, its just that the Blogosphere doesn’t generally have access to the first sources – the fact checking it does is sort of the networked-expertise smell check followed by, if something smells, digging and gnawing until related facts start to emerge.

If the MSM ever wises up to the New World, they will start hiring reputable people to report on happenings within their locale or area of expertise and then hand the info over to some blogostaff pitbulls for vetting, and then pretty it up with production and editing and style guides work.

Sep 9, 2004 - 1:47 pm 39. Brian:

It’s fascinating how quickly the blogs and the Internet were able to catch this as compared to intelligence agencies which were so slow off the mark with the Niger documents. Once again: advantage blogosphere!

With enough eyes, all forgeries are obvious!

Ace of Spades is also covering this is his inimitable way; he’s even started a Dan Rather Retirement Watch.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:09 pm 40. Mark Poling:

Anyone who spent any time before 1990 typing for a living should have looked at those memos and had warning bells go off. That CBS and the Boston Globe ran with the story without vetting the evidence boggles the mind.

Rick Ballard:

Who fed them the phony material? Isn’t that more important than how stupid they were to buy it? It would be nice to see a solid DNC connection for this. Just to keep it in the family.

That would mean caring more about the truth than about who gets elected. Damn, I’m furious.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:16 pm 41. Knucklehead:

For those enjoying this story as much as I am (you need help!), there is a very well done tech analysis by the commenter “Strief” at the discussion on Redstate.org and amusing comebacks by a commenter “azizhp” who finally gives up and accuses those who make such silly arguments based up typography and the like as being “theological”.

Surely somebody here has a link to some Moonbat blog where they are defending the CBS docs.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:22 pm 42. Ralph Nader:

You folks are digging yourselves a pretty deep hole on this issue. By arguing so fiercely that the documents must forged, you imply there is something so horrible in them that it cannot be true. So if the documents are proven to be genuine, or at least not proven to be faked, you’ve put yourselves in agreement with the obvious import of the documents, which is that Lt Bush refused a direct order 30 years ago and has been lying about it ever since. Kind of like betting the house on an inside straight, isn’t it?

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:24 pm 43. Rick Ballard:

Rather can’t retire yet. All his money is tied up helping the daughter of the former minister of the Ghanian treasury get some funds unblocked. He is expecting good news any day now.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:25 pm 44. lindenen:

So, Nader is basically arguing that even if the dox are fake we shouldn’t argue they’re fake. Gotcha. Now, who would this benefit?

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:32 pm 45. Knucklehead:

Mr. Nader,

Shouldn’t you be focusing your attentions on getting on a few ballots?

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:34 pm 46. flenser:

Ralph Nader

Finally, a troll shows up.

No, I don’t think so. If the memo’s are true (how can THAT ever be proven?) it does not change anything for Bush. Yes, he took time off to work for a campaign in the last years of his tour. It does not change the fact that he fulfilled his Guard obligations. Bush spend a lot of time flying F-102’s, more than was required, and was a good pilot. That is not in dispute.

If the memo’s are false, (and that is provable) then the MSM are exposed, yet again, to be so eager to push certain types of stories that they cannot be bothered to properly check them.

Let’s not lose sight of the Kitty Kelly story here either. Her supposed “source” for her book says she was misquoted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6706-2004Sep8.html?nav=rss_politics

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:34 pm 47. Bostonian:

Ralph, NOPE.

The furious buzz is because we are astonished that the MSM would try to put such a fake over on us. When I saw this memo, my own immediate reaction was that it looked like something done on a modern computer. Who the hell would have the gall to pretend that this document was from 1972?!

Yes, there is a lot of furor over this, but it’s not because of anything GWB ever did.

It’s because CBS screwed up again and is going to have to answer for it.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:36 pm 48. PeterUK:

This is beginning to lokk like the Mirrors forged Iraq prisoner abuse picture that ended in the firing of the papers editor Piers Morgan.If enough government pressure is brought to bear this could be a first rate scandal.It can’t be done by the blogospere alone but if it can be pushed to a tipping point the rest of the MSM will turn on CBS like sharks do when one of their own kind is injured.It happened here to the Mirror,much to the merriment of the populace.

The Mirror used the excuse that the pictures were re-enactments but the story was in essence true,so I wouldn’t be surprised if it crops up in this case.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:38 pm 49. pdq332:

LOL LOL LOL

The Dems can’t even go negative without screwing it up. I am having so much fun watching this unfold.

LOL LOL LOL

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:39 pm 50. so it begins:

“Rather can’t retire yet. All his money is tied up helping the daughter of the former minister of the Ghanian treasury get some funds unblocked. He is expecting good news any day now.”

Damn Rick, you said it much better than I did.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:42 pm 51. flenser:

Also, the language in these memo’s looks fishy. “CYA”?? , “..his dad.” ??? It just sounds like the kind of thing a BDS sufferer would write.

And I saw somewhere (don’t have the link handy) a handwriting expert saying that Killian’s signature was wrong.

Time will tell, but right now it sure sounds like CBS goofed.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:48 pm 52. Terrye:

I just saw a segment on Fox and the Democrat was saying that Bush needs to come forward and be honest with the American people about how he got special treatment 35 years ago and this goes to his credibility, etc. The hyprocricy of the Democrats is stunning.

Tow things:

Nobody really gives a damn. This whole AWOL thing has been around for a long time and I think most people who care have already made up their minds what they think.

The media will not accept that these memos are a forgery or report them as such unless they are forced to.

But I find it hard to believe that anyone would have produced these memos for a story that most people are sick and tired of hearing about.

But then again we are taking about Dan Rather.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:51 pm 53. Terrye:

two t-w-o not tow

Maybe I should try to get a job with CBS considering how unobservant I am.

Sep 9, 2004 - 2:54 pm 54. penwil:

flenser,

I thought the same thing about the language of the memo, too. Having served 6 years in the military, I can say from experience that there is a certain formal, stylized form of writing any kind of document that you learn and adapt to early on. Anyone with enough years to reach the rank of Lt Col would have written his memo in that stylized form without thought. This document “smells” like a civilian wrote it, and one who hasn’t ever been near anything to do with the military in his/her life.

Also, while you might write a CYA memo, you’d never in a million years identify it as such, because it’s counterintuitive. i.e. if there’s a need to cover your a**, then there’s a need to do so in a manner which doesn’t advertise itself as covering your a**.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:02 pm 55. Rick Ballard:

Penwil,

In my reply to you above I was referring to the DNC/MSM non competitive reaction. Fox will definitely report this as will the NY Post. I am really looking forward to Podhoretz skewering the Globe (wholly owned subsidiary of the NYT).

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:08 pm 56. asher:

Wow ….

they had Microsoft Word back in 1973?

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:10 pm 57. Sandy P:

Powerline sent a letter to the AP wanting an answer to the blatant partisanship and what they were going to do about it.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:10 pm 58. Birkel:

Brit Hume has this on FOXNews right now.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:22 pm 59. Robert Crawford:

The press should start adding trackback features to their sites. That way they don’t need to police comments, but can still support open review of their work.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:22 pm 60. kynna:

I am reminded of something Roger Hedgecock said about the biased media. He basically said we don’t have to lose sleep over it but we definitely don’t have to accept it. In fact we should REFUSE to accept it.

I’m thrilled Powerline and lgf have picked up this story and are pushing it like crazy.

Unfortunately, as long as only weblogs are talking about it, the MSM will not cover it. They would rather continue to die a slow, hideous death than admit blogs have any credibility whatsoever.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:26 pm 61. M. Simon:

This is so totally outstanding.

BTW one more clue: no mechanical variation on spacing above and below the line and between characters.

Also if the documents are done in different typewriters the mechanical variations ought to be different.

This is the end of Dan Rather.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:28 pm 62. Silicon valley Jim:

“they had Microsoft Word back in 1973?”

The National Guard had an early version. Al Gore sent it to them. He developed it while he wasn’t busy inventing the internet.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:31 pm 63. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

Fox has a already talked about this, with some barely suppressed laughter.

Jerry

Unless they’ve changed some basic stuff since I took my 1st Phone license (can be chief engineer of any radio or TV station in the nation), CBS has no license problem. There is nothing there about telling the truth. There is a general requirement to provide community service with their franchise of a valuable and rare radio frequency (this applies to the affiliates, not the network). The latter was used to justify the equal time rule, which I believe was knocked down in court.

The FCC makes rules – whatever it feels like – and the stations are required to operate according to them. The chief engineer is responsible for making sure they meet those rules – technical and content.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:44 pm 64. Alan:

Penwil, I believe the memos are fakes. Having said that, I’ve read a few documents written by some high ranking officers from that timeframe and, IMO, the language was very clear and falls in the realm of well educated…not militaristic.

JMHO

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:47 pm 65. penwil:

What’s so incredible about this–if these docs do turn out to have been forgeries–is how incredibly, utterly stupid of both CBS and whoever was motivated to try and pull off this stunt. After having already beaten the Bush was AWOL story like a dead horse for months now, did they seriously think this lame memo was going to have more than a ripple effect on the election? Where was the gain for taking such an enormous risk? Even if Kerry had nothing to do with it, he’s going to be severely damaged by it. Even if it doesn’t go beyond the blogosphere, talk radio and Fox News he’ll be damaged. Remember that story about those blue collar union guys up in that Bar and Grill in MN awhile back? Those guys had based their pro-Bush votes on internet news–the Mrs. Kerry’s foundation’s support of left wing groups, and Kerry’s crawling on the ground with a shotgun to hunt deer gaff. The newspaper article even mentioned one of the guys passing around a copy of an email he had gotten on the Kerry foundation story.

My 88 year old mother just got email. This is how people communicate in 2004. I would wager more people have already heard about the likelihood that the documents were forged, than ever heard about the actual content of the documentsin the first place.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:47 pm 66. RogerA:

Damn–I was gone 4 hours for hours the roof falls in on the MSM. This is SWEET. I have not recovered my composure from the false AP story of last week–and now this. I suspect we will always have some type of MSM, but its alleged first amendment freedom has been so compromised by its blatent partisanship, and willing to fabricate stories to influence a national election in time of war that I fear the real loser is the Republic itself. As much as I gag on the scurrilous nature of the MSM, the presence of a free press is a very important guarantor of freedom in this country. The MSM–in its unvarnished willingness to lie (yes lie) is damaging the nation even more than it is making them look like fools.

The MSM–who avoided the swift boat story for weeks–was on the TANG story like stink on s***. And now it has blown up in their face. This is a sad chapter for America.

The blogosphere has vindicated itself as a force for good–and also confirms the wisdom in the operation of a free market of ideas.

As one of our fellow posters said, this is a great evening to do a little self medication and watch the democrats on the talk shows try to follow the talking points.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:50 pm 67. M. Simon:

JM,

I held a 1st Phone at one time myself. Was Chief Engineer at WTAO. In Carbondale/Murphysburough.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:57 pm 68. Pat Curley:

As Dan Rather might say, if a frog had a word processor back in 1973, he could type superscripts.

Sep 9, 2004 - 3:58 pm 69. Sandy P:

Brit Hume just had this 2x, once w/Byron and once w/the panel.

And the Lt. Colonel(?)’s son came out and said these look suspicious.

CBS = BBC????

At this point in time, they’re going to the mat.

Those who do not remember (recent) history…..

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:00 pm 70. Brian:

Penwil: Where was the gain for taking such an enormous risk?

Didn’t people ask the same question about Watergate?

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:04 pm 71. M. Simon:

BTW,

Peter Jennings covered it on the evening news.

The Kerry side got about 80% of the time. The forgery got 20%. The “th” was mentiioned.

So things are improving. They no longer feel they can cover up a story. Nor ignore opposition evidence. Evidently they have learned from the Swifties.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:06 pm 72. Alan:

There is enough evidence for me to declare the memos fake….but I just heard a retired military women call in the Hugh Hewitt show and say the date format on the memos were incorrect…..I’m looking at some AF memos written in the 60s and 70s that share the same date format that the fake memos have. I think we should be cautious noting which discrepancies determined the CBS memos fake.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:07 pm 73. M. Simon:

ABC news has something from Killian’s son.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040909_1710.html

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:09 pm 74. Knucklehead:

Alan,

The Day Month Year format is correct. It most likely that a real military typist would have used three letter abbreviations for the months. There’s more than enough to show the fraud, the dates are just a hint of shaved chocolate on the icing on the cake

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:12 pm 75. RogerA:

As a former military officer it might point out

a couple of other discordant aspects of the “memo.” Military orders are NOT given on memoranda; the are issued as formal letters and the receiver of the order is required to “reply by endorsement hereon” to let the record reflect the order was RECEIVED.

Second, NO one puts CYA on the re line. The format is “Memoradum For: Record”

Thank God the MSM is woefully ignorant of standard military usage.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:13 pm 76. epobirs:

Now Col. Killian’s son, also a ANG officer, has come out as doubting the valifity of the memo.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:15 pm 77. Matt Ward:

Just watched the ABC Evening News.

After going over the allegations in the memos, they did a pretty thorough review of all the forgery allegations so far, noting both the proportional spacing problem and the superscript anachronism. They didn’t go into which memos were thought to be forgeries, however.

The coverage didn’t seem skeptical at all; it seems they’re resigned to these forgery allegations being true.

And that report followed the one about the new ABC/WashPost poll in which Bush is up by 9 points, and leading in every subcategory from leadership to likeability to job performance to handling of the economy.

There was no silver lining at all for Kerry. I mean none. Stephanopolous came out and said Kerry’s in bad shape and Jennings looked like he’d swallowed an entire lemon.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:16 pm 78. penwil:

A poster at LGF just got the following off of Powerline. (I tried to check it out myself, but didn’t get through):

From Powerline, CBS has apparently responded – kind of:

“Later, however, Ms. Edwards sent out an email that appeared to revise the nature of the “authentication” process:

CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written.

So what CBS is now saying is not that the documents are authentic, but that the opinions they express are authentic, based on the hearsay reports of anonymous persons alleged to be close associates of Col. Killian, who recall his views of thirty-two years ago. This is what passes for “authentication” in the mainstream media.”

_____

My word, if this is truly what CBS is now saying than this is beyond disgusting!

They’re practically admitting that the documents are forgeries, but that it doesn’t matter because it was done in the service of some greater “truth.”

_____

Alan,

I wasn’t thinking of writing in military jargon, so much as a formal tone one uses when writing anything down in the military. It’s one of those you know it when you see things, and not really important anyway with all the other damning evidence out there.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:19 pm 79. Rick Ballard:

Penwil,

My hats off to you. I was wrong about the MSM monolith on this. Looks like NBC and ABC are going to hang this dead fish on CBS’ neck.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:21 pm 80. flenser:

penwil

“I would wager more people have already heard about the likelihood that the documents were forged, than ever heard about the actual content of the documentsin the first place.”

Perhaps. A lot of people will hear about it, but they are probably mostly people who watch Fox, listen to talk radio, or read blogs like this. In other words, they are not the target audience for the lie. If some sizable numbers of those who watched 60 Minutes accept what they saw, then the damage will have been done.

There are still huge numbers of people who believe that checkout scanner story that was used against Bush 41.

Back to the memo’s – one of them says;” Staudt has obviously pressured Hodges more about Bush. I’m having trouble running interference and doing my job.”

The memo was supposedly written in August 1973. I hear that Staudt retired in 1972.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:23 pm 81. M. Simon:

Matt,

Yes. But I’d ammend it. I’d say the whole lemon tree root and brach. Ouch!

I do think he was resigned that it was a forgery.

I think he knows it is going to cost Kerry another point or two.

I do not think Kerry can break 40.

The debates will break his back. If I was in his position I’d want to skip them as much as possible. No matter what he does he will be peeling his own base.

Kerry is a poor candidate but his real problem is structural.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:26 pm 82. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

M. Simon

KANU and Alf Landon’s station (don’t remember the call sign, but he used to sign the paychecks). Never chief engineer. Student jobs.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:27 pm 83. flenser:

OT

But, condolences to our Aussie friends.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:31 pm 84. penwil:

Rick Ballard,

It was awhile ago now, but I did a semester’s internship at ABC news, while getting a graduate degree in journalism from American Univ, and I got a firsthand look at how competitive the biz is. Just as an example, but one you might find enlightening:

One night following the airing of that day’s ABC Evening News show, I was allowed to attend a meeting of all the people involved in putting on the show, i.e. the various producers, the writers, the director, the “talent” (as the anchors are called) etc. The meeting took place in the office of the head of entire news division. He had three TVs in his office and he had just gotten done simultaneously watching not only ABC’s broadcast for that night, but NBC and CBS’s as well. (This was in the dark ages before cable news). That night CBS and NBC had each led off with the same story, but which was a different than the story ABC had led off with. The person responsible for chosing which story that ABC led off with that night was fired on the spot.

That is how competitive and cutthroat the business is. And that’s why I really didn’t think CBS’s competitors would be able to pass up a chance like this to skewer them.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:38 pm 85. Terrye:

I know there are several vets here so maybe you guys could answer a question for me. I think Roger A eluded to it.

When I spoke to my guy [who was in the Guard himself] he said that if an order was issued and not carried out then there would have to be a record of it beyond any memoes. And if there is not then the question would not be about a memo done years ago but the tons of paperwork that should exist in official military records in regards to it. In other words, once the original order to pee in a cup or whatever was given there has to be a follow up of some kind in writing. He said without it there would be no honorable discharge. So where is all the other stuff that should be around if the contents of the memoes are true? Shredded, burned, and if so why is this around today?

hummmmmmmmmmmmm

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:43 pm 86. RogerA:

Terrye–the “memos” don’t ring true as military documents–as I said earlier, direct orders issued in writing are serious and the respondent is required to reply by endorsement ON THE LETTER and return it to the person issuing the order–That makes it official that the person receiving the order has in fact seen it and is aware of it.

Also–this guy was one hell of typist–no corrections or strike overs–AND this was done in the carbon copy world, where the memo would have several copies to file and record.

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:50 pm 87. Mark Poling:

Somewhere a forger is thinking “Notepad! Idiot! Notepad!”

WJHU, the voice of The Johns Hopkins University (when it was 10 watts, and run by students…)

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:54 pm 88. RogerA:

I just realized why no typos! He or she had preview–and they USED it! A lesson for us all!

Sep 9, 2004 - 4:56 pm 89. Mark Poling:

RogerA: Autocorrect.

I admit it, I’m addicted to it.

But the team that designed Word’s “Bullets and Numbering” function will burn in Hell for eternity….

Sep 9, 2004 - 5:01 pm 90. Rick Ballard:

Penwil,

Thanks for the explanatory story. I’ve seen the process involved in creating a number of different products but “news” isn’t one of them. My assumptions concerning the homogeneity of the producers are under revision. I still know how every story by Nagourney, Milbank and Brownstein will turn out though.

How do you think CBS will walk this story back? Is there an excuse that would work aside from the “witless dupes” angle? And how are they going to be convincing with that when they’re already publishing “we’re sticking by our sources” stories?

Sep 9, 2004 - 5:03 pm 91. Katherine:

Remember the old saying, “If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.”

Percy – You are obviously right in a principle, but here we are dealing with people who not only will stop at nothing, but also assume that they themselves are cuning geniuses and general public and their opponents are nothing but morons.

Look, few yearsí back there was a scandal in scientific community because a mol bio postdocs in a large lab got caught after he falsified data. The falsification was exceedingly crude: to get a result he wanted he simply duplicated a photo of gel line with the result that he desired, artifacts and all. It should have been obvious what he was about to anybody who glanced at the picture. Yet the data not only passed his PI, but got published in prestigious journal after peer review. Only when somebody tried to replicate the result the forgery was spotted.

People are capable of doing quite a lot dirty work for their Cause.

PS. Is shadenfraude wrong?

Sep 9, 2004 - 5:18 pm 92. penwil:

Rick,

They are homogenous in that they want to Kerry to win the election. But there’s probably a limit to how far ABC and NBC would be willing to go to ally themselves with CBS’s giant embarrassment, given that every tenth of a percentage point in ratings means millions of dollars in ad revenues. If CBS is damaged to the extent that they lose viewership, the other networks stand to gain.

My own opinion of course, but if I were CBS I’d try to ride it out at first. Go with the deny, deny, deny and pray it goes away. Only if that doesn’t work, would I then bite the bullet and turn on the source of the documents.

Which again brings up the question–just who was the source? Every voter out there who wants to see Kerry in the WH better be praying like there’s no tomorrow that the source was not the DNC or the Kerry campaign itself, because if the heat gets bad enough CBS will expose them before going down themselves. Literally millions of dollars and jobs are at stake here, and with the latest polls showing Kerry losing anyway, why should the entire news division of CBS fall on their swords for the man? At some point within CBS, people are going to start looking after their own skins. In fact, I’d wager that on the QT some heads are probably already on the chopping block over this disaster.

Sep 9, 2004 - 5:23 pm 93. Terrye:

RogerA:

Thank you.

It is strange. Killian’s son said the memoes did not come from the family, but CBS said they were in Killian’s personal records and the man has been dead for years.

What is the White House saying? I heard they released a memo saying that Bush requested and got an early dischage and a memo saying he was an exemplary pilot.

Does anyone know if they have responded to these allegations?

It seems they are staying kinda quiet about it.

Sep 9, 2004 - 5:27 pm 94. WichitaBoy:

Katherine

Schadenfreude is healthy.

Terrye

The poker player is leaning back in his wooden chair, holding his cards close to his chest, a long wheat stem protruding from his teeth, which are locked in an inscrutable s***-eating grin.

Sep 9, 2004 - 6:13 pm 95. Terrye:

Wichita Boy:

I imagine you are right. It looks like they are letting them hang themselves.

This afternoon Harkin came out and called Bush a liar. A man who said he was flying fighter jets in Viet Nam when he was in fact in Japan and no where near Viet Nam is calling Bush a liar.

It is like watching Dumb and Dumber.

A memo won’t change my vote one way or the other, I think the whole Guard thing is silly but it is entertaining.

Sep 9, 2004 - 6:38 pm 96. Rick Ballard:

Penwill,

That leads to the question of whether Rather was set up from inside CBS. I believe I’ve read that he’s not considered to be a particularly lovable boss. Perhaps someone decided to help him out – the door.

Sep 9, 2004 - 6:42 pm 97. Josephus:

Unfortunately, since this was ultimately an, ahem, self-inflicted wound, CBS will learn the incorrect lesson from all this: never again post source documents to the web where the unwashed can see them first hand.

Sep 9, 2004 - 6:43 pm 98. Sandy P:

I can only think W’s campaign is a well-oiled machine. Otherwise how could Karl Rove run 2 campaigns?

Sep 9, 2004 - 6:47 pm 99. Charlie (Colorado):

Jeez, Penwil, a journalism degree? You seem like such a nice guy.

But I think the phrasing thing is right on target: if that were a real military memo, it would have read like

1. Re Bush, G.W. 1LT XXXXXXXXXXXX

2. As of date this memo, subject officer has not completed physical examination required per AFR XX-XXX.

3. Subject officer is hereby directed to complete said physical examination as soon as possible.

4. Subject officer will reply by endorsement noting date and outcome.

(signed)

X. Y. KILLIAN

LTC USAFR

Commanding

[Jerry, John, How'd I do. It's been years since I wrote something like this.]

Sep 9, 2004 - 7:10 pm 100. richard mcenroe:

Charlie (Colorado) ó Woulda worked in my 201 file…

Lindenen ó You still don’t get it…

We shouldn’t criticize Kerry’s fraudulent Viet Nam medals because it was a long time ago and doesn’t matter today.

We shouldn’t criticize Kerry’s antiwar activities and traffic with the enemy because it was a long time ago and doesn’t matter today.

We shouldn’t criticize Kerry’s legislative record because, well, face it that never mattered.

But we shouldn’t criticize people lying about Bush’s guard service a long time ago because that’s terribly important today and might get Bush in real trouble. Got it now?

I am kicking myself for not having a job where I have web access. I’ve been missing this all day…

Sep 9, 2004 - 7:19 pm 101. RogerA:

Charlie (C)

Close but no cigar–try this

Letter format

To: 1LT George W. Bush

Subject: Flight Physical

1. Records indicate your flight physical is due on XXXX. You may not remain in flight status unless you successfully pass your flight physical.

2. You are hereby directed to take your flight physical on XXXXXXXXXX.

3. Reply by endorsement hereon when you receive this letter; advise me when you have completed your physical.

XXXXXXXXX

LtCol, USAF (thats what the airforce uses; Army uses LTC)

Sep 9, 2004 - 7:27 pm 102. jerry:

John:

I respectfully disagree on the seriousness of CBS’s situation visa via its broadcasting licenses if they were a willing participant in this kind of fraud. First of all this letter has status of an official US Government document. Forging a government document is a serious felony. If they are using a forged US government document to try to influence an election then that is certain a violation of the public service clause of their franchise. If pressed on the issue I don’t think the FCC would have choice but revoke CBS’s broadcasting franchise. If the fraud was perpetrated as a stupid result of their partisanship the market will take care of them. But if it is willful they need to be removed from the public airways.

Sep 9, 2004 - 7:31 pm 103. Charlie (Colorado):

Jerry, the problem is that the FCC doesn’t actually grant CBS a broadcast franchise; those are held by the individual stations. The most they could do is fine the stations that CBS owns directly.

Even that’s unlikely, though: CNN didn’t close down over Peter Arnett, they just fired him. Someone at CBS will be found who was responsible for the letters coming in; they’ll be looking for work, probably in another field.

Charlie (C)

Close but no cigar–try this

Hey, it’s been 35 years.

(Hell, it works for Kerry….)

Sep 9, 2004 - 8:06 pm 104. Katherine:

Wichita, thank you, now I know why I feel this glow of well-being inside me.

Sep 9, 2004 - 8:51 pm 105. richard mcenroe:

Charlie(Colorado) ó In an effort to reestablish its journalistic credibility, CBS News today announced it was letting go two student interns and ordering Dan Rather and Katie Couric to slap the coffee-cart lady…

Sep 9, 2004 - 9:24 pm 106. Justice:

The MSM doesn’t seem like it’s going to cover for CBS on this one. The local ABC affiliate aired an audio of Killian’s widow doubting the document’s authenticity on the 11:00 news.

Sep 9, 2004 - 9:39 pm 107. Fresh Air:

Charlie–

Jeez, Penwil, a journalism degree? You seem like such a nice guy.

I believe Penwil is in fact a lady. Not all vets on this board are guys, Charlie.

Sep 9, 2004 - 9:56 pm 108. M. Simon:

Rumors of provenance:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211690/posts

Sep 10, 2004 - 12:21 am

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