Blood in the tracks… ABC News is already turning on CBS on the “Bush” National Guard forgery scandal. Will this be worse for CBS than Jayson Blair was for the NYT? Will Dan Rather be the new Il Capitano? Time will tell — but it moves fast.
Roger L. Simon
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183 Comments
1. Jamie Irons:Names of alleged “experts,” and qualifications, please?
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:20 pm 2. Terrye:Roger:
Fox turned on CBS too. It remains to be seen what the ultimate outcome will be, but the questions are being asked.
Mort Kondracke said he thought the whole Guard flap was a crock. I tend to agree, he also said that if there was anything else there the president needs to get it out now. So the jury it still out.
I question the timing. [I just had to say that]
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:25 pm 3. RogerA:I think the free market may be at work here as well as the scent of blood–This is a great chance for NBC and ABC to gain sponsors to CBS’ detriment, esp given Fox’s performance during the convention–This is why cartel’s fail–the rewards of cheating are just too great to pass up. Von Mises and Hayek live.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:32 pm 4. heather:It is so wonderful to see the Bad Guys suffer some well deserved public humiliation.
We live in remarkable times!
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:35 pm 5. Mark Poling:Ah! Jonah Goldberg beat me to it by four hours!
PREDICTION! [Jonah Goldberg]
If they turn out to be forgeries, expect the Salonish types to very quickly float the idea that Karl Rove orchestrated the whole thing to make the anti-Bush side look desperate.
Posted at 03:33 PM
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:35 pm 6. RogerA:I don’t think Karl Rove would violate the fundamental maxim of interfering with someone commiting suicide–What is really of interest is the Ohio and Missouri polls–Looks like to closely fought battleground states are nearly so close–Kerry hasnt got enough fingers (even with Carville and Begala) to plug all the holes in these dikes.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:39 pm 7. Average Joe:I would like to point out that the expert that Bill of INDC Journal contacted, Dr. Phil Bouffard, not only gave his opinion, but also was willing to have his name associated with that opinion. If you go to Bill’s site, then you will find Dr. Bouffard’s analysis and a description of his impressive and relevant credentials. This evidence is better and better sourced than anything that CBS and its apologists have given to us.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:41 pm 8. Ralph Nader:Yes indeedy we do, when fellow Americans who disagree with you are the “bad guys”, and when folks assume that just because a bunch of people say it on a right-wing blog, it’s true, the memo was forged, probably by Dan Rather himself.
Don’t get so excited, kids. At this point, the evidence that the docs are forged rises to about the same level of evidence that Saddam had breakfast with bin Laden on 9/11.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:46 pm 9. Kevin P:Roger:
I am very behind on the forgery question so this might have already been discussed. Why is CBS not identifying the “experts” who verified the docs. I understand why they might protect sources but what journalistic code of ethics state that you have to protect the identity of the people you hired to verify your facts. If these turn out to be forgeries I can understand that the group would not want their shoddy work exposed but that should not be CBS’s concern.
If they do turn out to be a fraud wouldn’t CBS be obligated to ID their source. Since , if they are phoney docs, the source was committing a fraud against the country and CBS wouldn’t CBS be under no obligation to protect a con artist. It will be fun to see Rather have to listen to probing questions about how such a proud news organization could be tricked by someone who was outed in less then 24 hours by the “amatuers” of the blogosphere! Will he claim that he didn’t really to the reporting and expose himself as a glorified news reader. Or will he fall on his sword and confess that he is just stupid.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:48 pm 10. Kevin P:Roger:
Lets give this story the name that the MSM loves to tag on every political story- RATHERGATE!
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:52 pm 11. David [.net]:At this point, the evidence that the docs are forged rises to about the same level of evidence that Saddam had breakfast with bin Laden on 9/11.
I’ve got a copy of that memo, and even knew enough to use Courier New. I’ll send it to you — what’s your fax number?
The other networks will say CBS had a wrong story, and print will probably hit them a bit harder. But the test will be how much they really discuss it and for how long. How significant do they think fraud under these circumstances is?
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:55 pm 12. Terrye:Ralph:
One thing is true,if we are to take this little trip down memory lane the choice is between a man [Kerry] who turned on his comrades, sucked up to the enemy and was stupid enough to make it a corner piece of his campaign or a man who may have gotten out of the Guard early but whose testimony was never used to help torture anyone.[Bush]
The real question is how the KKK, or shall we say the Kerry Kennedy Klan saved John’s ass from at the very least a dishonorable discharge.
But he is a Democrat so the same rules don’t apply. Just like they don’t apply to Howard Dean who got a medical deferment for a bad back and went skiing, or Gephardt who spent the Viet Nam war as a clerk in the National Guard in St. Louis or Bill Clinton who spent the Viet Nam War chasing women in the UK.
To hear them tell it there were two kinds of men during Viet Nam, the cowards who did not go and the war criminals who did.
great strategy.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:58 pm 13. ret marut:This better not be a forgery or CBS News is finished. The other nets won’t let anybody forget it.
Sep 9, 2004 - 4:58 pm 14. Jamie Irons:Ralph Nader
(Is it really you, Ralph?)
It’s OK, Ralph. We’re not as excited as we seem. We are certain that after all the evidence is in, you will completely change your mind and agree that these documents are ludicrously inept forgeries, and whoever committed them thought it was more important to defame a sitting POTUS during wartime than to advance the truth.
///Hope-springing-eternal-in-the-human-breast.
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:00 pm 15. Kevin P:Ralph Troll:
If you have information that disputes what has come out from several different typing experts,bring it on. Inform us with your wisdom.If you have not read the stories check Hugh Hewitt, Powerline, ABC News,Fox,etc,etc. There are 20 to thirty links that you can read and I am sure that someone as brilliant as yourself would be able to point out the obvious errors of these silly conservative bloggers. It should be easy since you have looked at all the evidence and found it wanting. Please explain to us po’ ignorant folk the errors that these dummies have made.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:00 pm 16. David [.net]:CNN just did a piece treating the 1 August memo as the real thing.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:03 pm 17. Mark Poling:Then CNN just proved the principal that there’s always more egg for faces that need it.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:09 pm 18. Catherine:Catherine, here, checking in from 15 point Arizona. And let me tell ya, people here are pretty dang SHOCKED at that poll….(ok, just the Democrats that carpetbagged here from parts elsewhere). When Bush was in Phx last month, the crowd was approximately 20,000. In 107 degree heat. Hm.
Anyway…I digress.
Terrye…great post! It’s always been stulifying to watch the hapless Kerry campaign try to play….Kerry the War Hero and Kerry the Pacifist – they appear to see no contradiction.
What an amazing thing to watch and comment on.
Wowsa.
Catherine in AZ
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:11 pm 19. Ralph Nader:Oh, then wow, it’s got to be true!
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:14 pm 20. JK Ribera:The phoniness of this document is quite amazing. It employs “kerning” — the method by which letters are irregularly spaced in a book for aesthetic purposes. This cannot be done with a typewriter, only by typesetting or a word processor. Word processors did not exist in 1973, at least in any office I knew of. Did the National Guard send its files off for typesetting? Perhaps this Nader child can tell us?
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:19 pm 21. David [.net]:And speaking of the 1 August .memo, that’s some beautiful centering of address at the top. Someone really knew their Selectric. I bet if I used a ruler I’d find it dead between the margins too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:19 pm 22. shel:Lame, Ralph. Really lame.
I took a deep breath and checked DU before I left work, so that’s been awhile, but they were still deeply in denial about this then. Maybe things have changed by now. I did read one comment blaming the media for making George W. Bush look so great on camera and making Kerry look “LIMP.” LOL!
shel
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:28 pm 23. Ralph Nader:Life’s too short to spend it trying to reason with somebody who equates Kennedy and Kerry with murderers who hung black people from trees, but if you’re going to bring up Dean and Clinton’s draft status, you really ought to include that drug addict talk radio host who dodged the draft with a pimple on his ass, a certain veep with “other priorities,” a Fox News bullyboy who was in London just like Clinton, and of course a whole gaggle of chickenhawks who agitated for the invastion of Iraq.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:33 pm 24. Sandy P:Centering’s no biggie, David, I did it until processors came along. Could eyeball w/in 1-2 letters, too. And I don’t think I ever threw away my typing book, too much good stuff in there, I was in my previous life, an executive secretary.
That’s HS typing. We were quite excited when we got the Selectric II(?)s in Typing II, 1977-78.
Loved the selectric, the Dell keyboard is like it. It’s a thorough clack sound and firm touch, you know you hit the letter. I don’t recall a “th” on the element, I wouldn’t doubt it was expensive. And I can’t believe, unless someone had really good connections or a really good bribe, that an expensive typewriter was at TANG office.
Hmmm—News reports have said the memos, first obtained by CBS’s “60 Minutes II,” were found in Jerry Killian’s personal records. Gary Killian said his father wasn’t in the habit of bringing his work home with him, and that the documents didn’t come from the family.–
So, the man died in 1984, the docs didn’t come from the family, yet the docs were in his personal files. Who had them? Where were they stored?? Why were they saved for 20 years? Who else’s files does this person have? How did said mystery person know where to go?
And when was this done? Didn’t the Boston Herald say 6 months? Was this planned last year?
Roger, there is so much material from this election, a real barnburner of a book.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:35 pm 25. John Bono:David[.net],
Don’t go by centering. Doing centering on a typewriter is easy. After inserting the paper(for a pica machine), go to position 42(elite is 51). Hit backspace for every other letter in the line that you wish to be centered, then type, and it will be centered.
That being said, I reproduced all four memos, and had little difficult matching the horizontal spacing. Vertical spacing was a little more difficult, but that was because I didn’t try very hard to do so.
http://www.motgs.com/archives/001333.html
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:36 pm 26. Sandy P:Don’t forget the Breck Girl, Ralphieboy.
It must irk that W’s the only one who out of the 4 who didn’t try for a deferment.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:36 pm 27. somsy:I think the MSM journalists should make up their mind. Do they want to shove Kerry through our throats and lose all credibility doing so and make Fox news even bigger and thereby lose their own job or do they want to give us facts, keep their viewers and keep their job. It’s up to them.
Read John Kerry’s anti-America book THE NEW SOLDIER and 4 chapters of UNFIT FOR COMMAND for free online
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:39 pm 28. David [.net]:Here’s a simple DIY test. I think it’s a lock.
Use Word, Times New Roman, and Centered. Turn superscripts and subscripts off on the font settings. Paste this in:
111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron
P. O. Box 34567
Houston, Texas 77034
Compare and contrast with this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf
Zoom in 200-300%. Can you find any differences? Look how those 7s line up. Sweet.
Is this something CNN didn’t have time to do this afternoon?
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:40 pm 29. Terrye:Ralph:
Keep dreaming buddy. No doubt everything the swift boat liars came up with was crap, but this miracle of a memo falling like mannah from heaven into Dan Rather’s eager and waiting hands is obviously the gospel truth. Too bad the author is dead and can’t validate it.
We have a choice between the billionaire war criminal pacifist and the oil man’s son who golly gee did not go to war and destroy the South Vietnamese country side like a mass murdering marauder from the army of Ghengis Khan.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:41 pm 30. Stephen_M:Ralpie said Chickenhawks. How quaint.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:42 pm 31. Terrye:Catherine:
From Indiana with 12 points.
Thanks, but I am sure that someone as smart as our Mr. Nader saw right through this right wingnut’s wishful thinking and propaganda. sigh.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:43 pm 32. Sandy P:Kind of OT:
hehehehehehehehe
The North Carolina Senate race heated up Thursday as the GOP accused Democrat Senate candidate Erskine Bowles of avoiding his party’s presidential nominee. Bowles, former President Clinton’s chief of staff, “has made a habit of refusing to publicly appear with John Kerry and John Edwards, usually by having an event somewhere far away,” said a spokesman for GOP Senate candidate Richard Burr.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:44 pm 33. David [.net]:John Bono:
Don’t go by centering. Doing centering on a typewriter is easy. After inserting the paper(for a pica machine), go to position 42(elite is 51). Hit backspace for every other letter in the line that you wish to be centered, then type, and it will be centered.
Sure, if you are using those monospace fonts. (And a typewriter.) But will that work with a proportional font?
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:46 pm 34. Sandy P:A little tidbit from Bros. Judd:
—… Killian’s signature doesn’t match the ones on other documents, pressure described as coming from one officer who actually retired the previous year, etc….—
That must be in the Weekly Standard story.
Man, that timeline will screw one up.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:47 pm 35. ieddyi:“As is standard practice at CBS News, each of the documents broadcast on ‘60 Minutes’ was thoroughly investigated by independent experts, and we are convinced of their authenticity,” she said
That was the first statement
She followed that up with this:
Later, however, she sent an e-mail to WND, adding, “CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of [Bush commander] Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were”
so, THERE NEVER WAS ANY ACTUAL “VERIFICATION” BY EXPERTS
CBS is toast
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:48 pm 36. Terrye:Ralph:
Well a good Democrat ought to know about the KKK since Byrd still carries his card and unlike the traiter Miller is in good standing with the party.
How about I just include all the friends and relatives I had who went to Viet Nam and especially the ones who did not come back. While I am at it, how about the relatives in Iraq as well. And then there were the medal winners from WW2. My uncle had to do take two Nazi slugs and live in pain every day for years to get one purple heart. Just one.
BTW I am a Democrat, Bush will be the first Republican I have ever voted for. I don’t listen to Rush, have never heard him. I don’t watch Hannity and I don’t like Ann Coulter. Don’t assume that I am a fascist just because I fail to kiss ass for the DNC, that is a reactionary nand narrow minded attitude.
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:52 pm 37. Jamie Irons:The “chicken hawk” (Cooper’s Hawk, Accipiter cooperi) is a much-maligned, but really magnificent predator.
Agile, elusive, deadly. It sits quietly on a branch in the forest, and darts out to catch birds the size of a California quail or northern flicker with lightning speed.
I found an active nest in the woods surrounding my house in northern California, in the spring and summer of 2002 and again in 2003.
The hawks and I got to know each other. They found it entertaining to fly at my face at full speed, to threaten me away from the nest, and would veer away when they were only 18 inches or so from my nose.
Magnificent creatures. I wouldn’t mind being a “chicken hawk.”
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:56 pm 38. DennisThePeasant:Jamie-
What about a “blighted chickenhawk”?
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:59 pm 39. julie:How much did CBS pay for these memos? Any guesses?
Sep 9, 2004 - 5:59 pm 40. DennisThePeasant:Sorry, I couldn’t resist. It was the Nixon in me.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:00 pm 41. Jamie Irons:Sorry, should be Accipiter cooperii…
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:00 pm 42. Jamie Irons:Dennis,
Very, very funny.
Being of that generation (”Talkin’ ’bout my generation…”), I’d have to be a “blighted,” or even a benighted, one.
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:03 pm 43. corrie:These people can’t even compentently forge a two-paragraph memo, and they expect us to hand them the CIA?
Been grinning all day…
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:03 pm 44. Sandy P:–Ghengis Khan.–
That’s Jhengis Khan, Terrye. Must get the accent correct, otherwise your lack of education is showing.
Geez, anyone else who listened to his 1971 Congressional testimony think of “Mame?”
“And I stepped on the ball.”
Patrick’s clueless blond pureblood ex-fiance.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:11 pm 45. DennisThePeasant:Jamie-
There are always noble exceptions to any rule. You obviously qualify.
You just need to understand that I am, in all things, an understated, non-judgemental kinda guy…but I do like to yank a few chains now and again.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:12 pm 46. Kevin P:Ralph:
I refered you to those sites to read about the experts who have given detailed reasons on why the documents were forgeries. You may have more knowledge then these respected experts but I think you should either refute what they say, tell us why they are wrong and what credentials you have that would make us trust your claims more then theirs. As I asked you in my last post, please give us the facts on why these experts are wrong. I think you are smart enough to figure out that “Because I said so ” won’t fly on this blog. Give us the facts and I will believe you.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:13 pm 47. Sandy P:I’ve typed a lot of memos in my mind, would remember them if shown, but 30 years ago?
Must have been seared, SEARED, I tell you, into that group’s brains.
–These individuals were close associates of [Bush commander] Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were.–
Now we know who had the personal memos. Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out who they are.
Possibly the person who typed them? His aide? Now why would an aide keep personal files? Did he go thru them all and return the actual personal stuff to the family?
The late colonel’s son knows who they are, I’ll bet.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:16 pm 48. Rick Ballard:Mr. Peasant,
As the resident Monty Python expert when may we expect a decent “Bring Out Your Dead” post from you in re the unlamented Kerry campaign? Will you be doing a Black Knight or Dead Parrot post first?
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:24 pm 49. tcobb:We do live in interesting times. What is happening in the information age is similar to what happened with the Protestant Reformation. Just as it did away with the monopoly on interpretation of the Holy Word by the priesthood, the easy and rapid exchange of information and data by the Imternet is doing the same thing to the MSM.
I suspect this will ultimately have as much impact as did the Reformation. The world will be a far better place when people who do not hesitate to employ lies as a tool to advance a “just cause” won’t dare to attempt it because the probability of them being exposed approaches that of certainty.
But I can only dream.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:26 pm 50. Silicon valley Jim:‘The phoniness of this document is quite amazing. It employs “kerning” — the method by which letters are irregularly spaced in a book for aesthetic purposes.’
No, that’s not what kerning is. That’s what proportional spacing is, or perhaps you mean justification (widening or narrowing spaces between characters to make the right margin even). Kerning is the practice of slightly overlapping letters for a better appearance. It’s an option in Microsoft Word (choose Format Font, and then click on the character spacing tab). It looks to me as if the memo in question is both proportionally spaced, which was possible on typewriters then, but not on very many, and kerned, which, as far as I know, has never been possible on any typewriter. Look at the “k” and the “d” in the word “backdate” in the final paragraph. Sure looks to me as if they overlap.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:32 pm 51. Matt Ward:Someone fill me in here.
There seem to be four memos written by Lt. Col. Killian about 1st Lt. Bush.
How many of those are suspected of being forgeries and what do they say?
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:35 pm 52. Tom O'Bedlam:You know, it just occurred to me — the documents produced by CBS are surely “official documents.” (I mean, if nothing else, they’re documents, and they were written in offices, by a person who says he’s an “officer” — if that doesn’t make them “official documents” twice over, I don’t know what does.)
But if these are official documents, and they’re bogus anyway, does that mean…? Could it be…?
Surely the “official documents” which the media cites to discredit the Swiftvets couldn’t be wrong too?
My world is rocked to its foundation.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:40 pm 53. BigFire:My counter conspiracy theory is as follow:
Recently due to the RNC convention bounce, Kerry campaign have to make drastic personell changes with plenty of Bill Clinton crew ending up calling shots. Kerry’s old staff are kept merely as token. This give Clinton the perfect opportunity to torpedo Kerry campaign by flowing an obivous forgery, thus clearing the way for Hillary ‘08 run.
They’d also be right in figuring that CBS will be lazy and partisan enough to skip over document verification and fact checking. Afterall, if the information is coming from DNC and Kerry campaign, it must be good.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:40 pm 54. JJay:I kind of surprised Ralph Nader is blogging as much as he is. Shouldn’t he be traveling, making speeches, soliciting endorsements from people who wear berets and think the French are terrific?
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:42 pm 55. Terrye:Matt:
I suggest you go to realpolitics.com and check out some links. That will give you detail on both sides of the issue.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:46 pm 56. David [.net]:if that doesn’t make them “official documents” twice over, I don’t know what does.
Hmmm. In addition to fraud, are there federal laws about forging official militay documents?
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:46 pm 57. Matt Ward:I think people here should keep a few things in mind:
1. After four years of excellent service in the National Guard, Bush slacked off a bit in his last year. Sure everyone was doing it, but he did do it.
2. The election is still 7 weeks off. Sure, Kerry seems hapless, but the American people did elect Jimmy Carter and Warren G. Harding.
3. Your average voter doesn’t give a crap about why we invaded Iraq. He does care if Iraq seems a quagmire, and our enemies and the MSM will be doing all they can to reinforce that impression.
4. The average voter already realizes that the MSM is often in the tank for liberals, the Democratic Party, snooty New York people, whatever. They know Kerry is a fake. If these forgeries are true, it won’t be the bombshell you expect.
To paraphrase Hans Solo, “Don’t get cocky, kid!”
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:51 pm 58. penwil:Several very prominent experts in the field of document verification have come out and stated publically this afternoon, on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show, and to the Weekly Standard among others, that these documents are most probably forgeries. Look for these guys to show up on the cable news stations tomorrow saying the same thing. CBS is going to be put on the spot to trot out some experts of their own to refute this–and saying they’ve got “individuals” who believe this is what the dead LtCol would have written if he had written, blah, blah ain’t gonna cut it.
It occurred to me that it might be in Kerry’s best interest to turn on CBS and express shock, shock that this has occurred, and demand that CBS come clean, etc. etc. Might be their only hope if this story gains any more traction that it already has.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:53 pm 59. Knucklehead:The Missing Boos have apparently come out of hiding. Here they are.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:54 pm 60. Charlie (Colorado):Jeez, I take a couple hours off and look what happens.
TCobb, I think you’re onto something. I was thinking as I drove home tonight that CBS and/or the apparent forgers would have gotten away with this five years ago. The most we would have seen of the “originals” would have been a photograph of one in someone’s hand (”I have in my hand a list…”) and any disputes would have been dismissed as desperation or fabrication. It’s not like this is the first time a “major network” has fabricated a story (Peter Arnett, anyone?)
Instead, to keep their credibility, CBS had to put them on their web site, and once they were, a hundred thousand people who spend all their time looking at laser printed documents would see them.
At least some of us would be people who had typed things on real typewriters.
At that point, they had had it. They had no chance of concealing the problem. And as it stands, the people who first identified the problem have no particular connection to the Bush campaign or to the RP.
It won’t mean the downfall of Dan Rather — he’s got the “I’m just a newsreader” defense, and no one is likely to press him about the “managing editor” title.
But this time, this lie was revealed in a matter or hours rather than weeks — and every time this happens, the MSM’s credibility will be eroded that much more.
I think it’s big.
Sep 9, 2004 - 6:56 pm 61. WichitaBoy:And as it stands, the people who first identified the problem have no particular connection to the Bush campaign or to the RP.
I’m sure that Pravda on the Hudson will have a story up this weekend with a well-illustrated graph showing the numerous links between these thousands of people and the RNC.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:06 pm 62. Knucklehead:Matt,
I’m 99.5% sure that Terrye’s suggested URL is a hoax. Fortunately the original is available.
BTW, Terrye, I typed in http://www.realpolitics.com and look where it sent took me – Moonbat Central!
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:07 pm 63. Terrye:Matt:
I would not be at all surprised if Bush got close to the end of his time in the Guard, realized the war was winding down and he was not going to be activated and just wanted to move on. He was a young guy after all. I think that is what makes the whole Bush/awol story stupid.
But if these things are forgeries, the public has a right to know.
I think Kerry and the Dems should be horse whipped for dragging us back 30 years in the first place. Over and over and over. Viet Nam… awol…. Viet Nam…awol…
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:14 pm 64. Silicon valley Jim:Less than half an hour ago, the AP released a story under Terence Hunt’s (their White House correspondent) byline about these documents. It makes no mention of the possibility that they are forgeries. You can see it here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_national_guard&cid=544&ncid=716
Does the P in AP stand for Press or for Propaganda?
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:17 pm 65. Matt Ward:Knucklehead and Terrye,
I got through to realclearpolitics.com after a detour through somewhere else.
So all four documents are suspicious, huh? Isn’t that something?
I suspect someone will say these were recent transcriptions of earlier memos that have been destroyed.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:18 pm 66. robert:One would think these memos would have printed letterhead, instead of the letterhead being part of the memo, and typed up on a blank piece of paper.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:20 pm 67. Terrye:Knucklehead:
Jeez, I meant realclearpolitics.com.
Hey I am menopausal, you know how we get when the change is upon us. A little flighty..
I shot him once, I shot him twice, but I feel better now.
The Command Post has some good stuff too.
Speaking of Monty Python, I now have a picture in my head of John Kerry as the black knight.
It’s just a flesh wound.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:20 pm 68. Matt Ward:Of course, that doesn’t explain the signature.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:21 pm 69. DennisThePeasant:Ballard-
Beyond the fact that you should be deeply worried about your affinity for my thought processes, it is way too early for either the Dead Parrot sketch or the Black Knight sequence in Holy Grail. At the rate things are going, those are more appropriate for late September or early October.
At this time I would suggest The Argument Clinic in celebration of this week’s version of John Kerry…You know, the tough-talkin’, unflinching and uncompromising (well, maybe) John Kerry. And any hard look at the Kerry Campaign suggests The Gumby Brain Specialists…although that one probably would have been most appropriate for the Democratic Convention. I didn’t use it then because I assumed you would think I was burning Roger’s pixels posting transcripts of Ted Kennedy’s speech and then said hurtful things to me.
The other thought I had, which has now been completely shot by today’s events, was to recast Upper Class Twit of the Year as MSM Twit of the Year with Rather, Jennings, Brokaw, Blitzer, Brown and Matthews…but it appears Rather has locked this one up today.
What about Kerry losing the election and leaving the Senate to take up the post of Minister of Silly Walks? He has the John Cleese body-type…as well as the air of a fussy, clueless bureaucrat. And the march futile would obviously be a natural…
Finally, one cannot discount the idea of Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan and/or Kevin Drum announcing that they are being watched by Spiney Norman. Those boys are all delusional as it is, so what’s a giant hedgehog running around when you’re an ABBer? You’d probably blame Ashcroft, right? [If I had to lay bets, I'd go with Sullivan being most apt to seeing extremely large hedgehogs around every corner.]
Anyway, get professional help ASAP…the world really doesn’t need another Buddy Hackett From Hell.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:23 pm 70. penwil:Well, Powerline has just linked to an AP story that pretty much lays it out that the documents are forgeries.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/9623049.htm
If AP has abandoned the ship, the ship has sunk.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:34 pm 71. RogerA:Dennis: what would Andrew Sullivan do with those giant hedgehogs now that he has become unhinged?
Note to self: do NOT say bareback–do NOT say bareback
OT: what is your take on the Ohio polls? Looks like it is rapidly going to the Bush column.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:36 pm 72. Terrye:Dennis:
Did you hear that Ashcroft got 6 deferments? Count them, 6. The shame of it all.
Feinstein said so and we all know what a warrior princess she is.
This campaign is like a bad movie.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:36 pm 73. richard mcenroe:Rick Ballard, DtP ó The argument clinic:
“Foreign policy is not just gainsaying the current administration’s poisitions!”
“Yes, it is.”
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:37 pm 74. devildog:If Rather is going to battle Lord Rove, he’s better understand the following…
– Plan your battles well. Bravery rarely overcomes the failures from poor and insufficient planning.
– Never jump without considering what you’re jumping into — particularly in combat.
– To gain fire superiority, rely first on accuracy; not on volume.
– Avoid with vigor small-scaled, joint operations.
Got it, Danny Boy?
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:37 pm 75. richard mcenroe:Terrye ó SIX deferements? What was he ducking, the battle of Mordor?
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:38 pm 76. richard mcenroe:RogerA. DtP ó ROFLMAO…!
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:39 pm 77. John Lynch:Lengthy thread! It takes a while to catch up with all of you. Greetings to the regulars here, or as the Irish are wont: God Bless all here! (Usually before ordering a Guinness)
On AP – here is an early sign of some media meltdown on the Bush documents (courtesy InstaPundit)
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:41 pm 78. John Lynch:Damn! Took so long t sign in, compose post, and post that not only the link was discovered and posted by penwil, but also five other posts!
From Ohio with 8pts.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:43 pm 79. Terrye:richard:
That is what the lady said and you could tell she was outraged.
Only a crazy Jesus freak would do something like that, no real American would get 6 deferments. no siree.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:43 pm 80. Terrye:richard:
I don’t know but somehow I doubt that the lady would have volunteered to go herself, even if she had the option.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:45 pm 81. RogerA:John Lynch–you, sir, are another Ohioan–may I get your take on Ohio polling? the MSM keep telling me that, as we all know, this race is a toss up in the battleground states–what do you Ohioan know that the MSM dont know?
My self medication de jour is a bottle of Parducci Petit Sirah- as I watch the regulars have their way with the MSM–life is good/
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:47 pm 82. Michael Parker:Hmm, the superscript “th” may be a non-issue. Josh Marshall found it in one of Bush’s documents, although in a fixed-pitch standard typewriter font.
See: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/9-Miscellaneous.pdf, page three, and look at the second line (4Sep68) — the “th” in “111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron” is clearly a small “th” glyph. So some typewriters were around that could handle this feature.
The document was also clearly typed up by different typewriters, as the same text also appears on the 69Dec29 line in un-superscripted form (also notice the difference between the date formats).
The kerning and curved quotes, however, remain issues, though I’m suspicious that a kerning-like effect might not be an artifact of the digitisation process — if you look at the documents in question, it’s apparent that different characters seem to be shifted around by randomly small amounts — at first glance this is expected — anyone that has spent any time with them realizes that typewriters weren’t precision machines (at least not for long). However, it isn’t the same for different occurrences of the same character, which leads me to believe that digitization effects *are* a factor here. This cuts both ways — I think this is responsible for some of the minor differences that are apparent between LGF’s Word mockup and the CBS “originals”, making it more difficult to dismiss the Word forgery theory.
It would be really nice if CBS would release the original documents to help resolve this.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:49 pm 83. Terrye:John the Buckeye is correct.
Night line is doing the story and it is looking like they will claim forgery.
I have Direct TV and can’t get it. One of the few times I’ve wished I could get regular networks.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:52 pm 84. Michael Parker:forgot to mention the wrong paper size, the rarity of variable-pitch typewriters, the non-military abbreviations, the retired/active duty general mistake, and mismatching signatures and other errors.
This still smells like a forgery — just pointing out that the “th” may not be as significant as it originally seemed.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:54 pm 85. Terry:Just clicked on Instapundit and saw “ABC’S NIGHTLINE DOING THE forgeries tonight, and their experts say most likely forgeries.”
So I just mosey on over to the Nightline site to find this little nugget – This is their introduction to tonights show:
“… Questions remain; there are reports that he blatantly disobeyed direct orders to report for duty…”
If the questions are caused by forgeries, are they really questions? Major media, that old dinosaur, just can’t keep up …
Glenn also says : “CBS had serious meetings this evening over this.”
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:56 pm 86. John Lynch:RogerA
Well, DtP comes from another part of Ohio and can give perspective from there.
From here in southwest Ohio, we are pretty Red – as in pro-Bush. We do have a few campus settings of far-left. Specifics: Montgomery County voted Bush in ‘00. It is likely to again in ‘04.
However, the next county over (Greene) includes Springfield, and Antioch University. This location was chosen by Kerry for his midnight surprise speech after the RNC.
I do not know how the sampling is loaded on the polls around here. It seems that we were being rated as a tie just a couple of weeks ago, and the same pollsters are now reporting an 8-point Bush lead.
My sense is that the Bush/Cheney bumper stickers have been popping up all over the place in the past week. Scientific aren’t I?
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:57 pm 87. Charlie (Colorado):AP is now running the forgery story.
Michael, in the Old Days Of Typewriters, you made superscripts just that way: you moved the platen up or down one click, and got letters the same size but offset vertically. Getting a smaller font would mean changing the typeball — if you were lucky and had a Selectric — or literally going to another typewriter.
There was a special thing called a Varityper that was used for technical manuscripts, and it could do a good bit of that sort of thing, but it was an amazing pain in the ass to use.
In 1972, to get a look like that, you had to set type. There were a few Linotype operators I knew who might use one to type a letter, since they knew the keyboard, but unless someone can come up with an excuse why Killian would have had a Linotype machine in his office, I think this story’s in real trouble.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:58 pm 88. Pat Curley:The good news is that they loaded up the cannon and it exploded on them. CBS News is now thoroughly discredited. This is much bigger than Blair because of Rather’s involvement in apparently pushing the story forward despite doubts from others.
I don’t know if the mainstream media can move an anti-Bush story credibly now, even if there were a good one out there.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:59 pm 89. Terrye:Even if people believed this stuff of Bush, this information would not be in a memo like this. Where are the orders, the repremands, any thing that goes with the memos?
Nothing just goes away in the military. There is a form for everything.
Sep 9, 2004 - 7:59 pm 90. RogerA:in the trade, John, we call that qualitative analysis–which is very ‘IN” right now–thanks for the insight–This means that Kerry is going to have spend a LOT of time in Ohio to the detriment of other efforts–and as I see other state by state polls, I DONT see the so-called battleground states in all that many battles–In fact New Jersey, California, and Oregon are all tightening up.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:00 pm 91. RogerA:Terrye: we are going to make a military bureaucrat out of you yet! You go, girl.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:02 pm 92. Michael Parker:Charlie,
I know this — I never used the Varityper, but I used the Selectric for several years, so I know how super/subscripting worked.
The document I linked to did *not* use the normal typewriter up-one-click “th” down-one-click method — it used a single-character “th” like the “1/2″ and “1/4″ characters.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:04 pm 93. Michael Parker:I should mention that I don’t know when the document with the special “th” key was typed — it may be re-typed later for all I know.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:07 pm 94. Sandy P:OT: Good God Almighty! They’re turning him loose! Via Don Luskin:
PITTSBURGH Former vice president Al Gore will be in Pittsburgh later this morning to stump at a rally in support of presidential candidate John Kerry and the Democrats’ candidate for state Attorney General, Jim Eisenhower.
Gore will speak at a 10:30 rally at the United Steelworkers of America headquarters downtown.
Gore’s appearance comes as the families and friends of the two presidential candidates are beginning to criss-cross the state with more frequency as the November election draws nearer.
Eisenhower will be with Gore in Pittsburgh and will travel across the state with Gore to Nazareth for a town hall meeting at three o’clock this afternoon. At that event, Gore will discuss cuts to the federal COPS program.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:08 pm 95. John Lynch:RogerA,
Rick Ballard seems to know more about this than the average. I think there is something going on in adjusting the polls based on Dem/Repub mixes.
A given pollster might intentionaly include more, or less, Dems in the sample to “balance” against the number of Repubs in the sample. I think it is intended to adjust the sample based on likelihood to vote based on historic data.
A good discusion on this was presented earlier this evening (can’t remember where) that pointed out a fallacy to this kind of sample adjustment: it doesn’t account for those who are switching parties, or voting across party line (like our Host, Terrye, and others here)
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:10 pm 96. ambisinistral:I think the funniest part of it is the “subj: CYA” bit. Yea, good way not to draw attention to yourself when you’re CYAing.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:11 pm 97. RogerA:John–You are correct–to interpret a poll you have to know the sampling scheme–in fact, it has been posited that some of the post republican convention polls deliberately over-sampled republicans to give them a bigger bounce than they actually had–the subsequent argument being that the democrats were closing the gap when other polling formats were employed-As a researcher, I live and die by the RANDOM survey, but it politics, that isnt easy to obtain–registered voters, likely voters etc. Moreover, given do not call lists and the like it is getting increasingly difficult to conduct ANY sample.
As your fellow Buckeye notes, the private internal polls among those you know (or assume to be) loyal party members are the ones that count the most.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:20 pm 98. Barry Dauphin:AP (pot) runs forgery story and reports that CBS (kettle) boos.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:23 pm 99. geoffg:Since forging military forms is a felony, when the DoJ asks Rather (as the managing editor) to produce the sources, will he will refuse, citing his journalist protection.
Is Danny Boy willing to do the time to protect those sources?
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:24 pm 100. David [.net]:Gore will speak…
“I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part.”
And he’s just the guy to do it.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:25 pm 101. Charlie (Colorado):Forgery story on page A1 of the Washington Post tomorrow.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:25 pm 102. John Lynch:Charlie (C)
Good to see you here.
The WaPo article looks pretty thorough!
Who here can believe that during a war, just after the Russian school bombing, in the middle of an important election, etc — that a front page story of one of the biggest national newspapers would spend what looks to be at least a half-page on kerning, proportional fonts, and word-processors?
This year is the most bizarre I have seen … well … ever.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:32 pm 103. John Lynch:One thing the MSM does not care for: if a source lies, burn the source. Always.
I wonder how that is going to play out?
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:35 pm 104. RogerA:Charlie (C) and John Lynch–the WAPO story is fairly balanced–and apropos the topic of Roger’s thread here, could it be that the WAPO is moving on the NYT as the paper of record? some recent editorials and stories suggest to me, that is certainly moving to the right of the NYT (of course, that isnt all that hard)–Competition is a wonderful thing in a dead tree media market that continues to lose readers.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:37 pm 105. Charlie (Colorado):Don Sensing dug up AFR 35-13 (cited as authority although as AFM 35-13, which is pretty suspicious anyway). It was superceded in 1990 by AFI36-2605:
This instruction implements Air Force Policy Directive 36-26, Military Force Management, and Department of Defense Instruction (DODI) 7280.3, Special Pay for Foreign Language Proficiency. It prescribes all procedures for administering the Air Force Military Personnel Testing System and Foreign Language Proficiency Pay (FLPP) program.
Lookin’ pretty grim for CBS.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:37 pm 106. Charlie (Colorado):Hoo HAH! CBS has started an internal investigation (Drudge via Allah.)
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:39 pm 107. Eric Deamer:From Drudge:
http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd.htm
CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush’s National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned . . .
Here’s my favorite bit:
Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president’s military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.
Heh.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:40 pm 108. RogerA:Do you suppose Tom (motormouth) Harkin will correct his BS? I mean, the guy is already a proven liar about his “fighting migs over North Viet Nam–and he lambasted the president based on the forgeries–
If you were writing about ineptness and used this years campaign as a case study, no one would believe you–I mean, you couldnt make this stuff up!
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:44 pm 109. Rick Ballard:RogerA,
Dennis is about the only other regular here who might have an overall view on Ohio. Ohio has no races other than the presidential race that are actually considered to be contests. There is a marriage definition amendment on the ballot which would be (theoretically) helpful to Bush. I’d say watch Kerry’s schedule. He’s only putting ad money into 14 states now so he should be in Ohio at least three times a week if he thinks there is still a chance. I think Ohio is out of reach for Kerry so I hope he spends a lot of time there.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:46 pm 110. John Lynch:As someone posted earlier: this is great material for a book!
You’re right, you couldn’t make up how strange all of this is.
Conspiracy theory: Is all this just to get the SWBT Vets off the air?
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:47 pm 111. John Lynch:Rick
I’m not sure I want Kerry here, or his surrogates, but if I have to take one for the team …
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:49 pm 112. nelson ascher:Hello, Roger.
Youíre the mystery novelist while Iím just a paranoid. But to use a word-processor that didnít exist in the early 70s to fake documents that should have been originally typewritten (btw, my familyís business used to be typewriter ribbons) sounds a bit too naÔve to me.
Thereís a 1996 picture called ìTire a Partî (Limited Edition) where the main character, a British publisher played by Terence Stamp, wants to make people believe that a Goncourt Prize winning French writer actually plagiarized his best-selling novel. Though the action takes place in the 80s or 90s, he first translates the book into English, then finds some paper and printing ink left-over from the 30s and uses them to print, with a contemporary press, a few copies of the book under the seal of a real but no longer existing publisher whose archives and stock of books had been destroyed in an air-raid. Besides, after some research, he discovers a young author who died at the same time, assures himself that he left no living relatives, and attributes the authorship of the novel to him. Finally, he leaves half a dozen copies of the novel scattered here and there in second-hand bookshops.
OK: we donít expect forgers nowadays to go this far or to be so meticulous. Even soÖ
If I wanted to add another layer of mystery to the Bush papers story, Iíd say that the transparency of the forgery itself could have been intentional, a kind of false bait thrown in order to mislead the investigation. Perhaps Iím ìmisoverestimatingî the possible forgers, that is, if thatís a case of forgery to begin with.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:54 pm 113. kellymo:Hey – if Kerry wants to waste his time in my backyard (Hamilton Cty, OH – BTW, heavily Republican), I’ll set up a tent just for him. Of course, most of the neighbors will ignore him. Dennis – should I offer him a “wafer-thin” mint?
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:55 pm 114. Kevin P:Roger;
Posted by Ralph Nader at 4:46 PM.
“Don’t get so excited kids. At this point, the evidence that the docs are forged rises to about the same level of evidence that Saddam had breakfast with Bin Laden on 9/11″
” CBS announces internal investigation”
Hey Ralph! We miss your brilliant take on the news. Are you having trouble with typekey or are you still whistling past the graveyard.
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:58 pm 115. Les Nessman:I’m still waiting for proof that these are forgeries. I’d like to be sure first. (I guess I could never work for CBS or the AP, who apparently will publish just about anything negative about Bush without thoroughly checking it out.) Let’s not celebrate just yet.
Remember, this Bush National Guard ’story’ was just a political hit-piece/sideshow anyhow.
BTW, here in pro-Democrat NE Ohio, the Democrat mayor of Minas Morgul..oops, I mean Youngstown, has endorsed Bush. You should hear the scorn now being heaped upon him by the local politcos!
Sep 9, 2004 - 8:59 pm 116. John Lynch:Kellymo,
You are right of course. I’ll take him over to the Air Force Museum and show him all the weapons systems he voted for before he voted against ..
Here in Dayton. How many Buckeyes do we have here anyway?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:01 pm 117. Sandy P:–If I wanted to add another layer of mystery to the Bush papers story, Iíd say that the transparency of the forgery itself could have been intentional, a kind of false bait thrown in order to mislead the investigation.–
Blather was duped by Karl Rove?
Opening salvo?
Hi, Nelson!
—
Wait, wait, I know who dun it! It was our good friend and ally, frogistan!
First Niger, now this. Will they stop at nothing????
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:03 pm 118. kellymo:John – I was wondering about you. Grew up in Centerville. Pity you have to deal with the Dayton Daily.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:03 pm 119. John Lynch:Dayton Democratic Newsletter? Yep. I have that dogtrainer here.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:05 pm 120. Syl:Although we’d already known each other for a while online, Joe and I first actually met in a parking lot in Columbus..
Does that count?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:05 pm 121. John Lynch:That DtP’s stomping ground. Honorary Buckeye?
Can you come here and vote?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:08 pm 122. Katherine:ìAnd as it stands, the people who first identified the problem have no particular connection to the Bush campaign or to the RP.î
Wrong!
They are all digital brownshirts working for Bushitler.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:08 pm 123. kellymo:I’ve been watching the yard signs here. Before the convention last week, I was a bit alarmed by the # of Kerry signs in my neighborhood (which, for this county, is significantly more liberal). This weekend though, the B/C ‘04 signs sprouted up like frickin’ daisies.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:09 pm 124. John Lynch:I guess I missed the memo or I would have mine up as well. The neighbors all have their’s up. Oakwood has always voted 60+% Repub.
FoxNews just had a rerun of Harkin’s diatribe, then followed up with a piece showing the fonts and other parts of the “allegedly forged” documents.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:14 pm 125. penwil:I just read the Washington Post story and my first thought was that the whole National Guard story has done a titanic shift from being a small problem for Bush to a very big problem for CBS. Talk about your blowback. Heh.
My second thought was that the one thing conspicuously absent in the Post story was any speculation as to the source of the forgeries. C’mon, guys, they didn’t spring from the head of Zeus. Somebody, somewhere created those suckers, and yet the Post danced around that little uncomfortable fact like they were doing the Macarena.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:14 pm 126. WichitaBoy:http://itsjustdan.blogspot.com/2004/09/amy-barnes-speaks-out.html
This just in: Amy Barnes speaks out. Daughter says father made it up. (Hat tip, Betsy’s Page.)
“The woman, stating that her politics differed greatly from her Fathers, stated that he informed her months ago that he was going to “go public” with this story, known to be false. She claims that he has acknowledged the untruthfulness of this story to her over the years. She claims that there are two motivations for his doing this. One, to gain publicity for a book he is writing and, 2 the desperation of the Kerry campaign at this moment in time. Apparently Barnes offered to carry this tainted water if it appeared necessary in the general election to help secure a Kerry victory.”
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:14 pm 127. Terrye:I heard that the new documentary about pow’s and Kerry’s testimony before the Senate is coming out.
Has anybody got any details on it? Maybe that is what this is all about. An attempt to distract the public from the Viet Nam vets.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:17 pm 128. Rick Ballard:If the forged docs were supplied by the Kerry campaign and Gunga Dim verifies it, what is the potential total effect? CBS will be hurt but I can’t quite figure out what the overall popular reaction will be.
Does anyone recall a similiar level of dirty trick being played?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:19 pm 129. mrp:A late-night entry from the American Spectator:
More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush’s Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.
The oppo researcher claimed the source was “a retired military officer.” According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.
…
The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. “This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those people didn’t show it,” says the producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.
Tiffany… pure Tiffany
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:20 pm 130. mrp:Hey, I grew up in Centerville, too!
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:21 pm 131. jack white:Two words: Sydney Blumenthal.
Two more words: It’s over.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:23 pm 132. TmjUtah:From the WaPo story Charlie (C) linked to:
“He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that “these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time.”
Heresay…I remember when that standard of evidence was only good in Michael Moore films and DU threads. Who says that MSM isn’t staying up with the times?
/sarcasm.
I think that the Legacy Team has done their work. I expect Begala, Carville, Blumenthal, et al to start working on Kerry as Failed Candidate by the weekend.
By making enough noise about how inept a campaigner he WAS and putting out the ‘both campaigns used dirty tricks’ message, they prevent any debate on the absence of any relevant Democrat alternative to the Bush agenda. Gawd.
The endless campaign continues. Stand by for 2008.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:23 pm 133. TmjUtah:PIMF:
HEARSAY…Hearsay evidence.
What a wild day it’s been.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:24 pm 134. kellymo:Terrye – Talked to a family member this evening, who saw a first cut tonight of the documentary that will be shown at Toronto’s film festival soon (not sure when that is).
She thought it was very powerful, BUT (and this is a big one) this is someone who told me tonight that “the Swift Boat Vets were fully discredited by the MSM and the Kerry campaign”.
Personally, I’m not sure what it is.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:25 pm 135. kellymo:mrp – Roger’s blog is like going to Hilton Head or Florida. You always run into other buckeyes.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:29 pm 136. John Lynch:Toronto Film Festival started today. I don’t see anything that looks like POW or Vets.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:29 pm 137. Jonathan:When CBS first got ahold of these docs I picture them in glee and and standing around examining the little stain on the front of each other’s trousers.
Now the stain is probably in the back of their trousers.
They better come up with a good answer for this.
I dont know if fake or not, but damn, someone in the MSM better come to the realization, they got eyes on them now and those eyes are the New Media.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:30 pm 138. Stephen_M:Lileks has an overview of MSM v web.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:34 pm 139. Sandy P:The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being “shell-shocked” by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.
I’ll bet Blather is shell-shocked. Maybe he’ll be in the bed next to Bubba, his ticker must be going 190 now.
Is this Evita’s October Surprise?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:35 pm 140. kellymo:John – I think it’s the “Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry”. She said she met Bill Samuels tonight, who was the exec producer. See if the following link works:
http://www.e.bell.ca/filmfest/2004/filmsschedules/description.asp?pageID=searchforafilm&id=116
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:35 pm 141. Terrye:kellymo:
Well if they thought the swifties were discredited, what must they think of this catastrophe?
If the swifites were discredited Kerry would not be slipping in the polls and I doubt if we would be watching this circus right now.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:40 pm 142. Jamie Irons:kellymo
Born in Cleveland, grew up in Garrettsville and Chagrin Falls…do I get to be an honorary Buckeye?
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:41 pm 143. John Lynch:Thanks. It seems like it will be a nice counterpoint to what “Unfit for Command” and the SWBT people have in mind for their next step.
I believe that is where they are heading next.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:41 pm 144. Jamie Irons:Where’s Catherine with a “C”?
I think this thread may be turning into a “thumbsucker.”
And I can’t remember whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:43 pm 145. John Lynch:Jamie
With those qualifications, I don’t think there is any ‘honorary’ about it. We’ll send you some White Tower sliders, Esther Price chocolates, and reserve a table for you at the Pine Club.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:44 pm 146. Sandy P:Pulled this off of LGF:
A truly amazing day (again, if all pans out–part of me somehow still thinks it’s too perfect and wonderful to believe).
I followed the story very closely today, and the way it seems to have unfolded (at least according to my perception is this):
At 8:59:43 PM PDT last night somebody named “Buckhead” raised the issue of proportional fonts on the Free Republic Board and said the documents looked like forgeries. He/she issued a clarion call for bloggers to go after the story.
Powerline linked to and elaborated on Buckhead’s observations this morning, and LGF picked it up, developed it fully (with a thourough and exhaustive treatment and expert opinion) and together with Powerline absolutely IGNITED the blogosphere.
Then tonight, the mainstream media climbed aboard.
—
Hopefully, bodyslam to Buckhead a hat tip won’t do it.
We salute you.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:46 pm 147. Rick Ballard:I must say that I can’t think of a more fitting -30- to that frauds career. Now, if he’ll just burn his “source” on the way out, it will make a perfect ending.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:48 pm 148. kellymo:Terrye -
my family member’s got a good hook in to the Kerry campaign in NYC. She’d been around that crowd all night, and knew nothing about the forgery chat til I told her around 11pm this evening. Talk about an echo chamber.
Jamie -
when one is born in Cleveland, there’s nothing “honorary” about your buckeye status. You’ve paid your dues.
John -
I’m not sure what to make of the movie. I’m kind of hoping it gets the same distribution “Outfoxed” has been getting lately. Maybe it has the same level of credibility? And this is not coming from a FNC fan.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:49 pm 149. Sandy P:–CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts “who put our concerns to rest” and confirmed the authenticity of Killian’s signature.–
Idiots.
6 weeks – mid-July, before the dem convention.
This done in late June, early July or before?
Or after the 5/5 SBVT conference and the last AWOL brouhaha?
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:52 pm 150. kellymo:Oh, and John? Definitely add a Milano’s sub and a DLM Killer Brownie to Jamie’s care package.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:52 pm 151. John Lynch:kellymo
I don’t know about the movie (documentary) either, but having a pro-Kerry version of the events of the time will give some tailwind to covering an opposing view – the SWBT Vet stuff.
Let the people decide. So far, the weight of credibility has been with the Vets and has moved the polls (prior to the RNC.)
Well, late here, checking out for the night.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:55 pm 152. DennisThePeasant:Syl-
I once found love in a Columbus parking lot, too. Fortunately, I got probation.
John, Kellymo, etc., etc….
Good to see everyone getting all gooey over Ohio. Who can resist the charms of the Obetz Zucchinifest or the Kenton Coon Hound Trials?
Anyway, here’s my take on Ohio (which I first took in January). Bush will probably win Ohio just on the basis of how strong the Ohio Republican Party is and how weak the Ohio Democratic Party is. The Republican Party machine can deliver the faithful more effectively than the Clevelandistas can. Add the fact that it appears the polls are starting to break Bush’s way, and it could be a lock by October 1.
Kerry’s latest tack of “jobs, jobs, jobs” could have resonated in parts of Ohio, primarily the North, but around Columbus and Cincinnati that kind of chant just will not make it. Neither city has much in the way of a blue-collar mentality. Besides, “jobs, jobs, jobs” has been used by every half-assed politician crossing this state for the past quarter century. Even the unemployed in Ohio glaze over when someone starts into the “I’ll bring you great jobs” thingee. It’s lame.
Prediction:
If things really start to look bad for Kerry, expect to see him air commercials claiming he fought the vicious Chicken of Bristol and Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Film…
Finally-
If I had to guess, Bill Clinton ate the wafer thin mint…which could explain his current condition.
Sep 9, 2004 - 9:56 pm 153. Jamie Irons:John Lynch
and kellymo
Thanks! It’s good to come home!
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:00 pm 154. jack white:I think the larger question here is whether or not CBS will protect its sources. My bet is that, even if it finishes off the Kerry campaign, CBS will opt to tell us what really happened. Howls about breaches of confidentiality would seem minor after this fiasco. Really, what does CBS have left to lose?
And to the journalists on this Blog: would it even be considered an ethical breach to reveal the source who provided forgeries and false information to a reporter?
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:04 pm 155. DennisThePeasant:RogerA-
I went as far as I dared with Sully and Spiney Norman…
Imagine Sully, Marshall, Drum and Ygelsias sitting around a table doing the Life of Brian thingee…
“Alright, besides roads, schools, housing, water, the sewage system, and the police force, what have the Republicans ever done for us?”
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:07 pm 156. penwil:When I worked in public relations, it was in Washington DC. That place is small town in a lot ways, especially among the power set of those who create the news and those who report on it. That this is going to show up on page 1 of the Post tomorrow is a major humiliation for Dan Rather. Major. Picture having being exposed in your hometown paper in front of all your friends and secret enemies as either a dupe or a screw up and that is how Rather is going to be feeling tomorrow. Yeah, I know that Rather works out of NYC, but he’s a member of the DC political power set and that’s like being part of a small club. He just got pantsed in front of the club.
(And a lot of schadenfreude is being felt over it too, I’ll wager.)
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:19 pm 157. chuck:You all should go look at the American Spectator link mrp posted. They claim that the documents were delivered to a Dem op research group and passed on to the Kerry campaign, who evidently dumped them on 60 minutes. CBS is beginning to wonder if they weren’t suckered by the Dems. If they conclude that they were, I suspect the Kerry folks will get no mercy.
The almost simultaneous appearance of the story in the NYT, WaPo, Globe, LaTimes, on and on, points to a certain amount of coordination. If everyone feels burned I bet they make sure Kerry burns along with them. Here’s mrp’s
link.
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:19 pm 158. Jamie Irons:DtP
Hand goes up in the back, and a timid voice says:
“Well, there were those al Qaeda types in their safe haven in Afghanistan, and there was that Saddam Hussein guy…Things were pretty bad when they were given a free hand…”
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:20 pm 159. Jamie Irons:chuck
I can’t seem to connect to “The American Spectator.”
Wonder if they’re swamped?
Jamie Irons
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:29 pm 160. lindenen:If these documents were planted by Karl Rove, then will someone give that evil little man a kiss for me!
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:29 pm 161. Fresh Air:Was this forgery John Sasso’s first official dirty trick as Kerry campaign adviser? That’s one hell of an entrance.
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:33 pm 162. chuck:Jamie,
Yeah, it’s slow. I went off and did something else until it came up.
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:39 pm 163. Fresh Air:Just to squirt a little more Everclear into the flames:
Powerline is now quoting a news story saying Killian didn’t even type. I believe RogerA pointed out in an earlier thread that the memo was flawlessly typed with no strike-throughs or insertions. Neat trick for a hunter-and-pecker.
Come to think of it, Kerry is also a hunter and a pecker…
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:40 pm 164. George Purcell:Rather and company have one or two news cycles to save their skin. If they burn the hell out of their source and do a no-holds-barred apology tomorrow, they’ll likely survive.
If not….
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:43 pm 165. chuck:Ok,
not sure of the ethics here, but I’ve pasted in the American Spectator article.
Anatomy of a Forgery Print Friendly Format
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By The Prowler
Published 9/10/2004 12:09:06 AM
More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush’s Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.
The oppo researcher claimed the source was “a retired military officer.” According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.
“More than a couple people heard about the papers,” says the DNC staffer. “I’ve heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity.”
The concerns arose from the sourcing. “It wasn’t clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn’t confirm from what file, from what original source they came from.”
The documents that CBS News used were not documents from any of Bush’s personnel files from his time in the National Guard. Rather, CBS News stated that they were documents uncovered in the personnel files of Killian. That would explain why the White House or the Pentagon had never before released or even seen them.
According to a Kerry campaign source, there was little gossip about the supposedly hot documents inside the office of the campaign on McPherson Square. “Those documents were not something anyone was talking about or trying to generate buzz on,” says the staffer. “It wasn’t like there were small groups of people talking about this as a bombshell. I think people here weren’t sure what to make of it, because provenance of these documents was uncertain.”
A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60 Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even among the group of producers and researchers working on the story.
“The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush’s file that had Killian calling Bush ‘an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot.’ And someone who Killian said ‘performed in an outstanding manner.’ Then you have these new documents and the tone and content are so different.”
The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. “This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those people didn’t show it,” says the producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.
Now, the producer says, there is growing concern inside the building on 57th Street that they may have been suckered by the Kerry campaign. “There is a school of thought here that the Kerry people dumped this in our laps, figuring we’d do the heavy lifting on the story. That maybe they had doubts about these documents but hoped we’d get more information,” says the producer. “If that’s the case, then we’re bigger fools than we already appear to be judging by all the chatter about how these documents could be forgeries.”
ABC News’ political unit held a conference call at 7:00 p.m. Thursday evening to discuss the memo and its potential ramifications should the documents turn out to be a forgery. That meeting took place around the time that the deceased Killian’s son made public statements questioning the documents’ authenticity.
According to one ABC News employee, some reporters believe that the Kerry campaign as well as the DNC were parties in duping CBS, but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.
Sep 9, 2004 - 10:50 pm 166. Katherine:ì(Ö) but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.î
If true, whatever Bush pays him it isnít enough.
Personally, I doubt it though. It was done for the Cause by an over-eager 20-something ABB who is does not know what a typewriter is.
Sep 9, 2004 - 11:03 pm 167. Syl:Heh
Heh heh heh heh heh
HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
Heeeee heeeee heeeee!!!
Sep 9, 2004 - 11:26 pm 168. Katherine:My feelings precisely, Syl.
Sep 9, 2004 - 11:30 pm 169. Sandy P:WaPo says leaker’s name is Hodges and Killian’s superior.
He’s also a pubbie, but didn’t want to hurt W.
And he didn’t, it seems to me.
Magnificent.
Sep 10, 2004 - 12:08 am 170. Syl:So Hodges gave the documents to the campaign?
I wonder who put the documents in Killian’s file?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Maybe the same folks who broke in and stole Kerry’s FBI files from Nicosia?
Sep 10, 2004 - 1:35 am 171. Charlie (Colorado):Folks –
Just set the following to CBS News:
————————————————-
Sirs –
I have been following the recent controversy over the so-called “Killian memos” with great interest.
It is clear, at this point, that CBS News has promulgated a slander on the President of the united States, based on memos that were not just a forgery, but a clumbsy forgery that was detected within minutes of the memos being made available on the Internet.
This is an egregious, outrageous violation of journalistic standards.
Mr Rather, as Managing Editor of the CBS Evening News, has final responsibility for this violation. He must apologize.
He has participated, wittingly or unwittingly, in a politically-motivated fraud on the CBS audience and the American public.
He should resign.
————————————————-
You can send comments to CBS through the ‘Contact Us’ link on CBS News’ web page, (scroll down to the bottom) or mailto:evening@cbsnews.com .
Sep 10, 2004 - 3:56 am 172. ambisinistral:I’ve just sent my email to CBS News
———————————————–
Sirs –
I’ve actually seen typewritten papers in my life. Apparently you are having trouble finding expert analysts with that skill. Feel free to call if you need the veracity of another memo checked.
Sep 10, 2004 - 5:06 am 173. Mike:While CBS and Rather fight their rear guard action, Associated Press just keeps on keepin’ on……..
The bias from this ” news wire service ” has become patholgical. Here’s this morning’s AP lead story on the matter, courtesy of Matt Kelley:
Unbelievable. The Watergate-style dirty politics of employing forgeries as a means of smearing an opponent takes a back seat to the sleazy implication that Bush may have been a lousy pilot! What fanaticism on the part of AP! It reminds me of the Monty Python scene from the Holy Grail movie, where the knight, having lost both arms and legs in combat, still remains determined to keep fighting any possible way he can. That’s the AP. Despite having their arms and legs cut off in the bid to get Kerry elected, they fight back with whatever is at hand, even if it is ” Bush was a lousy pilot.”
Also note the other tactic to lessen the impact from the forgeries. Kelley cites one document expert as having examined the documents and determined them to be forged, deliberately omitting that numerous other experts have reached the same conclusion.
Sep 10, 2004 - 6:15 am 174. marcjohnson:Could it be that there is another Bush memo?
Sep 10, 2004 - 6:22 am 175. Rosettiski:Can anybody remember NBC’s Dateline episode (1987, I think), where those media elites strapped dynamite to some GM trucks to “prove they were unsafe and prone to exploding” when involved in certain accidents? Maybe Dan “Dateline” Rather can now go the way of those discredited morons who thought (still think?) the end justifies the means….
Sep 10, 2004 - 6:27 am 176. John Lynch:kellymo, Terrye
I think this may have been the documentary on POWs and Kerry that you were looking for last night Terrye.
This is not the same one showing at the Toronto Film Festival.
Sep 10, 2004 - 6:43 am 177. Knucklehead:This is probably long since played out, but I communicated with a buddy who has many years service and is an officer in the ANG.
Memos for Record for the purpose of “CYA” are perfectly common. He has never heard of anyone using “CYA” as the SUBJECT of such a memo, however, and suggests that using that particular acronym as the SUBJECT of a memo for record would indicate, ummm…, potential intellectualy flaws on the part of the memo writer.
Sep 10, 2004 - 8:03 am 178. Percy Dovetonsils:I’m flabbergasted that this is getting MSM coverage. Delighted, but flabbergasted – and tickled to have been wrong in my earlier predictions. How decadently sweet is the rich, creamy taste of schaudenfreude.
As noted earlier, this is an example of how hard it is for a conspiracy to work. Market competitiveness is indeed a force for good.
And earlier “Ralph” complained how we were defining fellow Americans as “bad guys”. Sorry, bucko, but I consider the MSM’s “balanced” approach to the war on Islamic fundamentalism to be reprehensible. Sometimes you do have to root for the home team (that’s us, you know, the U.S.), even if the home team includes Christians, NASCAR fans, SUV drivers, overweight people who wear polyester and love malls, and the rest of us flyover-country yahoos oh, so disdained by the bobos.
Sep 10, 2004 - 8:29 am 179. Tom O'Bedlam:Hodges didn’t provide the documents. For CBS a “source” means “someone we call up to ask if this sounds like the sort of thing the person might say.” This is also CBS’s notion of “authentication.”
Here’s what WaPo says:
A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network’s sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents’ alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that “these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time.”
Sep 10, 2004 - 8:33 am 180. Knucklehead:Dan Rather seems, when it comes to his particular strain of BDS, to have long since crossed over from rabid partisanship to some sort of vendetta against the Bush family. Does anyone have any idea what the source of his anti-Bush vendetta might be?
There are some Imus listeners here. I was one for many years but it somehow faded away for me. In addition to Rather’s odd “Courage” sign-off line, I seem to recall that he used “Tamp ‘em up solid” for a while. IIRC Imus used to give him no end of grief over that. Seems like a very odd man.
Sep 10, 2004 - 9:07 am 181. jerry:knuclehead:
In 1988 Dan Rather interviewed Bush 41 and attempted to drive the interview in an unflattering direction. Bush stomped him. I suspect this is payback for that interview.
Sep 10, 2004 - 10:07 am 182. Knucklehead:Are these anchors really that petty? One interview doesn’t go their way and off they go on a 25 year vendetta? Geeze Louise!
Sep 10, 2004 - 10:23 am 183. Godzilla:testing, disregard
A link
Sep 11, 2004 - 2:19 pm