I woke up with that thought this morning — and it actually put a smile on my face. I mean Dan, like the Juice, is just not the kind of person to admit that he did it. But we all know he did. So, like OJ, he ends up this pathetic figure living out his life, gladhanding low-rent fans in golf course coffee shops.
[But Rather gets to keep a skadillion dollars and owns that golf course plus a dozen yachts.--ed. Okay, okay. It's just one scenario.]
Meanwhile, the good-old MSM is doing its best to downplay the matter. Of the NYT, WaPo and LAT [Don't you sometimes feel like the "comic weekly man?'-ed. You know... I do.], only the NYT has much coverage, focusing on the story (already known to blog readers) of former National Guard Commander Hodges:
The commander, Bobby Hodges, said in a telephone interview that network producers had never showed him the documents but had only read them to him over the phone days before they were featured Wednesday in a “60 Minutes” broadcast. After seeing the documents on Friday, Mr. Hodges said, he concluded that they were falsified. (bold mine)
The LAT doesn’t deal with Rather and CBS but chooses instead to center on the role of blogs, deflecting the real issues with already-debunked speculation about whether one poster at Free Republic had advanced knowledge of the forged memos. The WaPo buries the information about Hodges in another yawner (sorry, couldn’t finish reading it) about Bush’s National Guard service. Here’s my dopey short version of the Big National Guard Controversy….
All of us confronted with the draft back in Vietnam days had several choices from enlisting to fleeing the country. One was the NG and the conventional wisdom about that was that it was a “long slog,” but it tended to “dribble off” at the end. Well, I’m reasonably sure that CW was right and that Bush’s guard service, like almost everyone else’s, did dribble off. And since so many people know this, most of us are about as interested in this story as we are in soy futures in Kazakhstan.
The Rather Story is rather different. [Did you actually write that?--ed. You're fired!]But what is most fascinating to me now is how the media is playing it. Leaving aside the obvious… that had the forged document come from the other side this would be trumpeted all over the front pages… I think this is causing consdierable nervousness. I doubt Rather is a well-loved figure. The pompous rarely are and he’s as pompous as it gets. But he is very much of them. He is part of the fabric of their self-image and their reality. I identified with that reality for ninety percent of my life. I know how complex it is to unravel that, how much risk it is to your entire personality structure. This is serious business.
UPDATE: Ratherbiased is pointing out that “Sixty Minutes” has apologized for a fake memo before. True enough, but it was a considerably less significant situation (story about border drug running). For them to apologize now has far greater implications. It would remind the public that one of the key players in the mainstream media is willing to promulgate forged documents to unseat a sitting president. That has historical significance.
MORE: In case you missed it, Beldar has more mysterious documents that have turned up on USA Today. Go figure. (link fixed)
AND: For those of you who have not or won’t get far enough in the comments, I would like to echo Charlie (C)’s praise below for this essay by Steve Horwitz.
PJM Home
171 Comments
1. Stephen_M:I expect Rather will indeed spend his retirement alongside Cronkite. Thanks for the OJ imagery. There’s some satisfaction in that. Rather will not make the clean getaway Cronkite did.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:41 am 2. dr. sanity:Perhaps Rather will say: “When things have settled down a bit I will pursue as my primary goal in life the forger or forgers who destroyed my career and CBS’s credibility. They are out there somewhere. Whatever it takes to identify them and bring them in, I will provide somehow.”
Sound familiar?
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:56 am 3. Andrew X:Watching the Sundays…..
CBS Face the Nation (of obvious particular interest). Primary issue….. terrible doom and gloom over Iraq, death, mayhem destruction, “Does the administration STILL think elections are possible in January?”….. NO mention at all of Natl Guard issue, their big story break of the week. (That’s based on the intro only, as I can’t stomach the full half hour, but I am certain my words will stand, and,BTW, I’m being HONEST about it, take note.)
Chris Matthews….. finishes his show with his regular personal segment, this time on “Why are the Republicans going after the press?” Answer: “Because the news really is bad, and they are mad at the messenger”. Oh, and BTW, care to guess what three letters were NEVER mentioned on his entire show…. three letters that start with ‘C’ and end with ‘S’? (I did see the whole thing.)
It is a stunning thing to behold.
(Fox panel talked about it, of course. I missed Press the Meat. Can anyone comment on that or ABC?)
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:56 am 4. Connecticut Yankee:Captain Ed linked to a piece of investigative journalism this morning that puts CBS to shame:
“Caught In The Act Of Not Being AWOL!
The Decatur Daily (Alabama) published an interview this morning with former Air Force Sgt. James Copeland, who insists that he saw George W. Bush doing his required drills at Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Montgomery, AL during the period CBS and Democrats claim he was AWOL….And the Decatur Daily, in a demonstration of actual investigative journalism that the spoiled brats at CBS could only envy, actually looked around for witnesses at the Winton Blount campaign to see if Bush missed any campaign events because of his National Guard duties. Bingo!….”
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002496.php#comments
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:57 am 5. Scott Ferguson:You know, CBS News is truly disgusting in the way it professes impartiality and objectivity while being a willing tool for Democrat operatives; and it’s been that way for a long time.
Having said that, I still don’t get the obsession with Dan Rather. In spite of the fact that he has some glorified executive title in the credits, and his salary makes him a rich man, let’s face it — he’s just a news reader. Beating him up doesn’t get to the heart of the matter. His assignments come from Don Hewitt. His 60 Minutes pieces are researched and written by other people. Rather probably hasn’t had an original thought in years.
In short, Dan Rather is a puppet. We should instead be focusing on who has their hand up his butt.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:59 am 6. Catherine:Dan Rather will be unraveled.
I think.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:00 am 7. Catherine:What are you guys wearing????
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:01 am 8. shel:Well, I was so afraid this would happen with the MSM virtually ignoring the forgery, behaving as if that isn’t really the point. Reminds me of the old story about the Emperor having no clothes–parading around with all the people admiring how beautifully he’s dressed, and the little boy (in this case the blogosphere) saying, “But–but he has no clothes!”
Except in this case, instead of realizing and agreeing, most people are answering, “Yeah, but it’s more comfortable just to keep on pretending he does!”
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:02 am 9. Catherine:It better not be pajamas,
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:03 am 10. Catherine:I meant:
It better not be pajamas.
full-stop, no comma
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:03 am 11. Catherine:Scott Ferguson
I’m almost positive it’s the exact opposite.
Dan Rather is a celebrity; he’s an 800 pound gorilla.
Don Hewitt doesn’t tell him what to do.
Remember when he left his anchor chair for several minutes?
Don Hewitt didn’t tell him to do that.
Or, over at Fox, remember when Fox sued Al Franken for slandering Bill O’Reilly?
Fox didn’t want to do that.
They had to do that because O’Reilly is their star, and a star is a diva is a star is a diva.
Dan Rather is a diva.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:06 am 12. Scott Ferguson:Dearest Catherine,
Yes, your “Rather as Diva” point is well taken. But if the Diva walks, the opera company soldiers on.
Dan Rather was created by CBS, he didn’t just appear. I think the “story” about the National Guard documents would have been flogged by CBS News regardless of whether Rather was there to do it.
So I still think CBS News and in particular its shadowy executives are still the issue. Who is their Roger Ailes? Why aren’t we focusing the spotlight on him?
(Many thanks, Roger, for hosting this coffee klatsch!)
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:13 am 13. pasquinn:Excuse me, but I’ve been reading your weblog for a while now, and I have a question. Who is this “ed.” that makes the interstitial comments? Do you really have an editor? Or is this a rhetorical device used for comic relief? If the latter, cut it out. It doesn’t work for Kaus, and it doesn’t work for you.
Enough schizophrenia! End BMPD (Blogging Multiple Personality Disorder) now!
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:16 am 14. DennisThePeasant:Catherine-
O.K., you asked for it…
There are worse things than middle-aged men in pajamas…
Like middle-aged men wearing silk thongs, thigh-high black leather boots with 13 inch stilleto heels, and feather boas.
…
Uhmm, hypothetically, that is…
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:17 am 15. Scott Ferguson:BTW,
I’m not wearing pajamas.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:17 am 16. David [.net]:I think the more general incompetence of journalist is having an effect. Over the past couple of days, those in the MSM that accept they are forgeries have been doing an awful job of presenting the case. Maybe because so far it’s mostly been opinion panels and duels, but they don’t even have the basics of the evidence down. What the story needs is a major print or broadcast piece that lays out the full devestating picture in the level of detail and rigor that can be found in the blog investigations. Some reporter in the right place could have a free ride in toppling an icon.
Since the fraud can be convicingly exposed in a 30 second Flash animation, the pros ought to be able to do a solid demonstration of it. I haven’t seen it, even from those who agree. This is as much a cause of the serious failure of MSM as Rather’s indifference to facts.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:17 am 17. Scott Ferguson:DennisThePeasant: Are you referring to Marv Albert?
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:19 am 18. DennisThePeasant:All-
That was not my post. Someone is forging posts around here.
I never talk about black leather and boas.
Well, hardly ever.
And away, I’m out mowing the lawn as this is being typed.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:20 am 19. DennisThePeasant:David-
Catherine wants to know if you are wearing pajamas. She has this thing…
Scott-
Marv Albert? Oh, yes! Yes! I was referring to Marv Albert and not anyone else and certainly not myself…
I’m still mowing the lawn, by the way…
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:23 am 20. Old Dad:Good Morning All,
This is a strange case, indeed. Looking back, it’s easy to see that the docs were forged. At the very least, the story was full of holes. Rather might be a pompous ass, but he’s not an idiot. If I’m the executive producer, this is not even a close call. This steaming pile never sees the airwaves.
So why did they do it? I think Rather is the bad guy here. He bullied Hewitt into runninig the story, and he could care less about who might get hurt. Screw the minions who will lose their jobs. Screw his employer whose reputation is in tatters. So why did he do it?
Rather is a very nasty man who hates the President more than he loves his country.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:28 am 21. ricpic:Maybe it’s for the best that Rather - and by proxy the whole MSM - twist slowly in the wind on this one.
The longer the denial the more the general public will come to mistrust them.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:33 am 22. Rick Ballard:Buddy and Ethel would be proud.
It takes a strong man to mow the lawn in a silk thong, thigh-high black leather boots with 13 inch stilleto heels, and a feather boa.
I can hear the neighbors now, “I know he says he’s a CPA but look at him. Start another movie for the kids and tell’em they have to stay in the den.”
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:34 am 23. D Anghelone:I know how complex it is to unravel that, how much risk it is to your entire personality structure.
You gather Rather would rather gather in lather of coterie?
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:37 am 24. Charlie (Colorado):What are you guys wearing????
plaid boxers and a Pulp Fiction Action Figures tee-shirt.
More important, what are you wearing?
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:37 am 25. D Anghelone:I know how complex it is to unravel that, how much risk it is to your entire personality structure.
You gather Rather would rather gather in lather of coterie?
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:37 am 26. D Anghelone:Ach! Sorry for the double.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:38 am 27. Andrew X:“What the story needs is a major print or broadcast piece that lays out the full devestating picture in the level of detail and rigor that can be found in the blog investigations.”
I know whose JUST perfect for that…. 60 Minutes!
The irony is rich. Consider if an imaginary network, let’s call it the VOX Network, run by a rich guy named Hubert Burdock, ran CBS’s story. Now imagine 60 Minutes going after VOX over these documents. Imagine Ed Bradley interviewing all the people in Killian’s family, talking about Staudt’s retirement, bringing in typewriter experts and military procedure experts, comparing the documents like Charles Johnson has sp spectacularily done at LGF….. whole nine yards.
I mean, it’s tailor made for 60 Minutes.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:38 am 28. chuck:pasquinn:
I like the -ed interjections. YMMV.
DtP:
Fascinating life. I should have been an accountant.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:39 am 29. Charlie (Colorado):Like middle-aged men wearing silk thongs, thigh-high black leather boots with 13 inch stilleto heels, and feather boas.
Together, now:
“Science fiction,
double feature …”
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:40 am 30. Scott Ferguson:Hi Old Dad:
I would be more willing to accept the notion that Diva Dan was driving the National Guard “story” if there was some corroborative evidence to support it — like Rather claiming credit for it.
Truthfully, I wasn’t watching 60 Minutes when that segment was on, and do not know if he was credited as the producer for that segment. If he was, then he deserves the blame. Regardless, we still need to look at CBS News as an institution, and shine the spotlight on its executives.
Diva Dan* is a convenient icon for CBS News’ hubris. But frankly, I think he’s a dim bulb, and unworthy of demonization. If he walked tomorrow, the effluent eminating from CBS News wouldn’t smell any different.
———-
* “Diva Dan” … I like that! Thanks Catherine.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:41 am 31. Charlie (Colorado):I just want you to know I’ve been waiting ten minutes for coffee, and just discovered I didn’t turn the goddamn machine on.
I may use this excuse for the rest of the day.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:41 am 32. Kevin P:Roger:
LA Times watch- In Peter Wallstein’s report on the Blog’s influence on the Rathergate story he breathlessly reports “Democrats point to the timeline as evidence of a right-wing conspiracy; Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe suggested to reporters Friday that White House political advisor Karl Rove might have cooked up the memos, presumably with the idea that they would be discredited. A Bush spokesman called the charge “nonsense.” He ends his story with a blog quote “Here, here, wrote another. ” But how do we know Buckhead is really not Karl Rove….”
I thought one of the main complaints of the MSM of the blogs is that wild rumours are posted and the blogs have no editing function to stop wild misinformation from becoming the common currency of the blog. Yet the respectable Times reports a unfounded wild spectulation by McAuliffe without the common courtesy of saying that at this point there is NO evidence beyond rumour or speculation that the McAuliife slime is true or not. By ending the story with a repitition of the unfounded rumour he gives more credence to a “Blog Like” rumour on the supposed journalistically pure just the facts reporting style that they haughtley claim to hold.You can’t accuse the blogs of the whore like rumour mongering charge while you are taking a $50 bill and spreading McAuliffe’s rumour without at least informing your reader that there is nothing but wild speculation supporting the charge. The Times reminds me of the TV preachers who lectured the country on loose morals while bonking their secretary. They also spread the de-bunked Freeper charge because that allowed them to spout “But apparently the entire thing was cooked up by a couple of amatuers on Free Republic”. You can critize blogs for printing rumours but they are shot down quicker then the Times cleans up their own mistakes and rumour spreading. Plus the blogs actually follow up and investigate the story while the MSM does it’s best to bury and ignore the story. If the Times and the rest of the MSM does not wake up and start reporting and investigating amd quit ducking and ignoring stories that don’t fit their political goals they will soon find themselves on the unemployment line. They should study the Luddite movement, they are showing Luddite tendencies and denial.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:42 am 33. Old Dad:Hi Scott:
No doubt about it. CBS news is rotten from at least the executive producer level down.
The suits at the top are probably complicit, but in an odd way. I doubt they care much about veracity so long as the checks cash.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:48 am 34. Jeffrey -- New York:I would suggest that everyone continue to email CBS and let them know what you think. Keep their feet to the the fire.
This was my last email to CBS Evening News:
*
It’s the beginning of the end, CBS, and you don’t even know it.
Over at Belmont Club, he compares the power of bloggers on the Internet to that of the introduction of the long-bow against the armored knight. An appropriate analogy, I would say.
Here are a few commenters’ views from his weblog:
>This revolution will be at least as big as that spawned by Gutenberg when his printer made books available to the masses.
>Now the power of publishing is becoming available on a similar scale, and many of the old guard will become extinct.
>Just as the widespread availability of books preceded the downfall of monarchy, so the arrival of the Internet foreshadows massive upheavals in the social order of today.
># posted by EvilPundit : 1:33 PM
>Sir, the ecomonmetrics of scale is awesome. Think about the relative cost in medieval terms of the two weapons systems, longbow vs. knight-in-armor.
>Maps perfectly– Charles Johnson can run a thousand “stringers” bringing in information at miniscule costs, compared to CBS.
># posted by jinnderella : 1:39 PM
>Yes, and the internet “stringers” collectively bring to their reporting the distillation of thousands of years of personal expertise and life experiences to inform the readers. No news organization can mobilize on that scale with similar speed.
># posted by ter0 : 2:13 PM
Dan Rather saying that the documents were real because he said so will be one of defining moments of the end of your monopoly on information.
You’re trying to fight thousands of intelligent “stringers” around the world. You’re toast, Rather and CBS.
*
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:48 am 35. John Lynch:Coming from Ohio, fully clothed thank you, with a link from Wretchard about Rathergate.
Good morning all. Lawn needs work, I’ll be in and out for a while.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:49 am 36. kynna:I know someone who works for CBS in the news division. I have not been able to ask her about this, but she’s said in the past that Rather pretty much runs the show. I’ve heard that about Jennings and Brokaw as well.
I don’t know why. Rather has never been a good anchor. He’s always been stiff and his ratings have been poor forever.
I’d love to see the kind of article referenced above where the whole sordid episode is detailed and analyzed in an objective manner by a mass, noteworthy publication. NY Times Magazine seems like the perfect outlet for such an expose.
That being said, it will never happen.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:52 am 37. CERDIP:Well, the Sunday Morning Big Media spin seems to be “aren’t we all wasting a lot of time on arcane typesetting minutiae” accompanied by lots of giggles.
They know that Rather’s been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and are trying to dismiss its import.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:52 am 38. Charlie (Colorado):Newsweek/MSNBC says the source of the forgeries may be Bill Burkett.
You may remember Burkett as the guy who happened to be around for a bunch of incriminating conversations that couldn’t have happened.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:57 am 39. penwil:I’m with Old Dad on this one. I think Dan Rather himself came up with the documents–not that he personally forged them, but that some Democratic operative gave them to him and for him the story was “too hot to check.” For him it was deja-Nixon all over again.
A “talent” (that’s what they’re called in the biz) at the level of Rather or Bill O’Reilly does have the power to push the story through over the objections of the producers. They’re like the franchise player of a football or baseball team. From the outside they look like just another guy on the team, albeit the star. From the inside, when they say jump the rest of the team asks how high. He won’t resign; he’s already said he’d retire after the election anyway. So the CBS News Division figures all they have to do is deny, deny, deny and the furor will eventually die.
There will be repurcussions, though. To Rather, whose reputation is tarnished, both with a large segment of the public and with his peers. To CBS, who could well lose a few tenths of a point in the ratings if enough regular viewers switch their news watching habits to one of the other alphabets, translating into a not insignificant revenue loss. And to the MSM as a whole, as distrust for the institution by the public at large is bound to grow over this. Especially among the 20 and 30 somethings who are more likely to have watched the story unfold over the internet. It might even have cost Kerry some votes too, because it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to guess where those documents came from.
The winner in this is George Bush, because the forgeries have so tainted the AWOL issue that he can now remain above it all and look presidential while doing so.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:00 am 40. Charlie (Colorado):You gather Rather would rather gather in lather of coterie?
Wow.
I can’t decide if you should be congratulated, or beaten.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:04 am 41. Pearl:“For them to apologize now has far greater implications. It would remind the public that one of the key players in the mainstream media is willing to promulgate forged documents to unseat a sitting president. That has historical significance.”
This is very much like Watergate - only it’s the media’s Watergate. They persist in flogging a dead story about President Bush, while trying to hide through obfuscation their own very real guilt. Yes, CBS is guilty, Dan Rather is guilty, but the MSM is equally guilty of trying to hide this story from the public. It could discredit much of what they say and write. It could reveal to their readers/customers that they have broken their trust.
THIS IS THE BIG STORY.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:10 am 42. Charlie (Colorado):Wretchard@1139Z:
The real catastrophe for CBS is that Killian incident is probably not an isolated setback so much as proof that maneuvers which worked in the past can no longer be attempted with impunity.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:18 am 43. RW Rogers:Monotype (the manufacturer) knows if their typewriter font is, in fact, exactly like their computer font. Based on prior personal experience with other companies, I think the answer is no. I don’t know who to call or I would but someone out there knows. It would put an end to CBS’s ability to deflect criticism by saying it could have been done (with that very rare $5,000 ($20,000 in today’s dollars) professional printer’s composing machine.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:23 am 44. David C:My latest opinion: Watching the MSM is good for losing weight.
I watched the first segment of Howard Kurtz’ CNN show as I was doing my 30 minute exercise bike workout and, no joke, burned 50 more calories than usual getting pissed off at it.
They basically all just laughed off the forgery expose, with Tucker Carlson being on the defensive (and not especially effectively) about why it might matter. The woman (former CBS employee whose name escapes me) on the panel took the “Let’s stop arguing about minutiae about Swift Boats and typewriters and talk about the real issues, like who can shovel more free prescription drugs into the hands of elderly voters” position.
It’s really amazing to me, seeing actual presumed journalists arguing that, essentially, it doesn’t matter whether individual facts are accurate or individual documents are forgeries, so long as the gist of the story is mostly true. Are they really arguing for a “one free forgery or fabricated statement per story” rule? Where you get one freebie, so long as you’ve got some non-fabricated fact or statement stuck in there someplace?
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:27 am 45. PeterArgus:Roger:
I take a much more “nuanced” view of the NYT’s story about Rathergate. While reporting on the contradictory statements by Hodges they focused on how Hodges hasn’t discounted the message in the memos, - they are consistent with his conversations with Killian at the time - but feels the memos are forgeries based largely on the opinions of others. So, basically he is being swayed by “experts” according to the Times. But they go in (by implication) that there is no reason to discount his overall opinion of the message. They also quote Hodges as saying he believed the memos were handwritten, not as has been reported elsewhere, that he was told the memos were handwritten.
Of course ALL of these MSM sources have completely avoided the most compelling and most newsworthy item - the visual matchup between the memos and word documents produced by Charles Johnson (which they could reproduce on their own PCs if they were so inclined).
For those worried that because they are sweeping this under the rug it will be forgotten. I really believe that many people are following this and their silence is having widespread negative ramifications. After all the reporting on the SwiftVets was much more negative and one-sided but it has a measurable impact on public opinion.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:33 am 46. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):What is so delicious is that this is hitting CBS’ long running biased smear machine. 60 Minutes (and friends) can be counted on to attack conservative causes every week, doing so with great (simulated) gravitas. The full power of CBS appears to be behind each of these hit pieces. When they’re not doing that, they’re hitting someone else from behind.
As the orbital physicists say, what goes around comes around. They don’t mention that it picks up a big wad of mud on each pass.
Go for it, Dan. Try to save your worthless hide. Destroy the 60 minutes franchise while you are at it. Stay out in fron and you and it will be pierced by wooden, tipped arrows.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:33 am 47. Jamie Irons:Did anyone see Nicholas Kristoff’s Missing in Action, and if so, can anyone with experience with the National Guard “fisk” it?
My darling wife, Nina, the smartest and most perceptive person I know (about most things), whom I am gradually curing of her mild Bush Derangement Syndrome, sent me this as “evidence” that “both sides are distoring the truth” about their candidate’s Vietnam era activities.
Thanks,
Jamie Irons
(For those who are interested, I always blog in a tweed suit and silk tie. I will often take my shoes off, however. I have sent away for a “Roger L. Simon Blogger’s Fedora,” with autographed brim, but it hasn’t yet arrived. I try not to read those posts that are writeen by posters who openly admit to wearing feather boas and stiletto heels, still less those who make sly and unconvincing denials of wearing such attire, as this offends my somewhat puritanical sensibilities. But sometimes I peek at them, anyway; nobody is perfect.)
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:36 am 48. Charlie (Colorado):Hee hee: The Boston Globe is jumping ship.
Hugh Hewitt has lots more.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:36 am 49. jdwill:More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic
I hadn’t seen the Lively before. It looks like more people are lining up to tacke a piece out of Rather.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:39 am 50. Half Canadian:What really gets me is that Rather seems to treat investigative jounalism like making sausage. Its best not to watch it being made.
The blogosphere’s investigation here has been wholly transparent, with sources and names, correction and challenges. Some claims were struck down, some revived, apologies made. All ugly business, but it is more confidence inspiring than someone trying to run on reputation.
CBS needs to disclose who their forensic document expert is (if there is one, Matley certainly isn’t), and they need to put a different reporter on this. That is, if they want to revive their credibility. Firing Rather might be the quickest way to do it.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:39 am 51. ricpic:Jeffrey,
One more advantage the blogosphere has relative to the MSM: not only do the internet “stringers” bring a wealth of experience and expertise to bear on an issue; they are not loathe to detect and criticize errors in fellow “stringers” arguments and/or evidence.
Corrections come quickly in the true arena of free speech.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:40 am 52. flenser:charlie
Regarding Burkett, here is a debunking of his claims.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/13/doubts_raised_on_bush_accuser/
It seems likely that Burkett was one of the unnamed “sources” from CBS, and that he remains unnamed precisely because he has no credibility.
Of course, nobody else they cited has any credibility either.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:41 am 53. Charlie (Colorado):Hey, Jerry, John Moore — you real military guys — how many points do you need to retire from the Guard? I know it’s calculated on more than retirement, but is seems to me it should be in the neighborhood of 56 x 20 = 1120.
Byron York’s “The Hill” story — which I can’t find right now — had a pretty significant number, like the equivalent of 15 years Guard service. It’d be interesting to see how close Bush was in points to retirement….
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:42 am 54. security momma:it’s happening…
EDITORIAL: New century finds a new journalism
If you’re a media buff - and who isn’t, in America in 2004? - then circle Thursday, Sept. 9, on your mental calendar. Because that’s the day weblogs came into their own.
And politics and journalism never will be the same.
What happened Thursday is that webloggers or “bloggers” latched on to a controversial “60 Minutes”/CBS News story - and then worked the thing, with a stubbornness and tenacity that would have done credit to a pack of bulldogs or a turn of snapping turtles - or, yes, an army of investigative reporters.
As a result, CBS was forced to respond within a single news cycle. And although the network eventually stood by its story, more holes are showing up in the thing almost by the hour, and there’s a fair chance the network will have to retract.
…
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforksherald/news/opinion/9642361.htm
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:42 am 55. ricpic:Blogging buck naked AND LOVING IT!
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:43 am 56. jdwill:I hadn’t seen the name Lively before. It looks like more people are lining up to take a piece out of Rather.
Post in haste, repent at leisure.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:44 am 57. jack white:Old Dad wrote:
I think Rather is the bad guy here. He bullied Hewitt into runninig the story, and he could care less about who might get hurt. Screw the minions who will lose their jobs. Screw his employer whose reputation is in tatters. So why did he do it?
_____________________________________
I think you are right, and CBS through Rather’s strange defense the other night as much as admitted so. I don’t have the transcript available, but he said (as did CBS on its website) that the final call was his and he personally vouched for the story’s source.
The origin of this story, the blogosphere, unhinges the MSM. If the CBS forgeries had been exposed by ABC, for example, there wouldn’t be these calls to “move on.” There is real fear here, and it goes to the relevance of the dinosaur media in an age of rapidly changing technologies.
There will be some reporter, possibly even from within the second tier MSM, who will begin to dig into past stories Rather pushed. The Steven Glass scenario may unfold here. This, too, is a cause of consternation among Rather’s friends in the MSM. The reason is obvious.
Finally, let us not forget that like OJ, Walter Cronkite isn’t a happy camper these days. He wrote a bitter farewell newspaper column in which he derided the blogosphere and modernity in general.
The only thing that surprised the public was that Cronkite was still alive, let alone wrote a newspaper column.
Now that hurt.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:51 am 58. Cardinal Fang:Well done people, wtched this unfold over the last couple of days and: LMAO.
Keep the ed-thingie though.
This lurker is wearing his horseriding-outfit but is willing to change into his PJs id thats the policy around here.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:52 am 59. Fresh Air:Guys, it’s looking more and more like Burkett was the culprit. See this bizarre update at Ace of Spades.
We’re in serious Moonbat land now.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:55 am 60. d-rod:Couldn’t CBS at least show as much class as the BBC in February when chairman Gavyn Davies resigned after being exposed for willfully sexing up British Intelligence on Iraq?s WMD capabilities? Remember BBC’s director general Greg Dyke was also forced to resign for what was described as defective editorial systems and allowing Radio 4 Today reporter Andrew Gilligan to broadcast “unfounded and grave allegations without checking the facts”.
The new acting BBC chairman, Lord Ryder, issued an unreserved apology.
I guess the MSM in America is more about propaganda, cover-ups and denials these days.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:55 am 61. Old Dad:Hi Pearl,
You’re absolutely right. It’s amazing how long these things sometimes take, though. I can remember turning Rather off back in the ’80s. We’d all talk at work about what a biased moron hew was, but we didn’t really have a lot of alternatives or much of a voice. Cable slowly gave us choices and now the internet has given us a very loud voice.
I’m not optimistic that the MSM will reform itself anytine soon, but I’m pretty sure it will happen over time.
Ya gotta wonder what the suits in the news organizations were thinking when Drudge broke on the scene. I’d have hired ten Drudges on the spot. It was patently obvious that the net would grow into a powerful investigating force as well as distribution channel. I think they got the distribution part, but not the investigating piece.
I wonder why the MSM blogs are so lame, though
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:57 am 62. zeppenwolf:What’s driving me crazy, (besides RatherStupid), is the almost complete lack of blitzkrieg on the part of the rest of the LM. WHERE is FNC on this? All they need is one example like this:
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/aug1873-pdf-animate.gif
to disseminate the information Americans need to form an educated opinion. Well, that’s your job, n’est-ce pas? One fully presented case for an indisputable fact, like this:
http://peterduncan.net/CBS_Documents.html
“I doubt Rather is a well-loved figure. The pompous rarely are and he’s as pompous as it gets.”
I would be suspicious of that idea– if newscasting is anything like film-making, (and I think it is), then I suspect that an elitist, pompous, leftie snob superstar is completely endeared among other elitist, pompous, leftie snobs.
Again, as others have claimed, if it’s like film-making, the *star* is running the show– people tune in to see RatherStupid, they don’t tune in to see the producers.
Sep 12, 2004 - 9:57 am 63. Charlie (Colorado):Of course ALL of these MSM sources have completely avoided the most compelling and most newsworthy item - the visual matchup between the memos and word documents produced by Charles Johnson (which they could reproduce on their own PCs if they were so inclined).
I have seen this reported on TV — I swear it was on CNN, unlikely as that seems.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:02 am 64. Fresh Air:Just found out Burkett also tried to push his story right before the 2000 election, but none of the outlets would touch it.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:06 am 65. penwil:Fox is too busy “covering” hurricanes. I swear practically everytime I turned it on these last few days the picture that popped up would be that of a swaying palm tree–the same swaying palm tree.
It has occurred to me that I’ve actually paid more attention to what the MSM, both print and TV, have been saying these last couple days, than I have in months and months. And what I’m basically doing is tuning into them to see how they are reporting on their own death throes. There’s irony in there somewhere . . .
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:11 am 66. Fresh Air:Good grief! here is the unbelievable story he tried to foist before, as credulously reproduced by the London Times.
Choice excerpt: “I furnished Mr. XXXXX XXXXXXX the name of a person in Dallas who was
the campaign supervisor for young George W. Bush during the Alabama Senate
campaign. That person told me without batting an eye that GW was partying, not working on the campaign and in fact, had bedded a beautiful young wife of an up-and-coming author [later to publish the book "Forrest Gump"] from whom he
was renting a garage apartment.
She further said that George W. Bush was neither sober nor dependable throughout the entire [Blount] campaign.
The guy needs to get some psychiatric assistance and fast.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:12 am 67. richard mcenroe:Jack White ó And remember, this is the Walter Cronkite who told an interviewer in 1972, “I don’t think people ought to believe only one news medium. They ought to read and they ought to go to opinion journals and all the rest of itÖ because otherwise, we’re going to get to a situation because of economic pressures and other things where television is all we’ve got left. And that would be disastrous…” [italics in original]
Dan Rather dodged the draft.
Walter Cronkite flip-flops.
What is the world coming to?
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:14 am 68. jdwill:Zeppenwolf
Your link 2 is the cats pajamas - Thanks!
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:19 am 69. Charlie (Colorado):Steve Horowitz at Liberty&Power says a good bit of what I was trying to say about MSM vs liberty.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:20 am 70. David [.net]:Fox is too busy “covering” hurricanes. I swear practically everytime I turned it on these last few days the picture that popped up would be that of a swaying palm tree–the same swaying palm tree.
Some question the timing of Hurricane Ivan. After all, it was his man-on-the-sewall coverage of Hurricane Carla in 1961 that made Rather’s national career.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:22 am 71. flenser:Those who want to read (again!) Byron Yorks detailed summary of Bush’s Guard service can find it here.
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200402180840.asp
Factcheck has covered the same ground and come to the same conclusions, in the course of which they have also covered Burkett’s allegations.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?DocID=140
You all may as well bookmark these, as I’m sure they will be needed again and again.
Can we start the book on the MSM’s next Bush attack? I think we have not heard of Harken in a long time. It’s due to come up again.
So consider this a preemptive strike. (You know how we right-wingers like preemption)
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york071002.asp
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:23 am 72. Charlie (Colorado):Fox News is reporting an interview they had with Gen Hodges.
Hodges told Fox News that CBS called only two days before the report, and only discussed the contents of the memos, not the provenance. He also told them that Rather called him personally Friday night; Hodges walked through the reasons why the memos were fakes, but Rather told him that they’d been authenticated by experts and they were going to stand by the story anyway.
I’ll see if its on Fox’s site, but I had a window open on Roger’s site anyway….
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:27 am 73. Rick Ballard:Thanks for the Horowitz link Charlie, that’s an outstanding essay.
liberty has once again defeated power by redestributing it back to the people.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:33 am 74. Charlie (Colorado):Okay, now this is flat-out weird: Burkett went back to a February thread on Steve Verdon’s site and replied to a debunking of his anti-Bush stuff … on August 14th.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:44 am 75. jdwill:OT Kerry Siting
No Cambodia question. Mostly softball….
The attacks don’t attack me as much as they attack Americans and America.
I would not have turned my back on the international community.
As President, who would be the first person you would phone?
I’m not going to say one, two, three. I will tell you that I have 20 years of experience on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I have personal relationships with leaders around the world. I will not cede our security to any other country. I won’t cede our security to any institution, but I know how to reach out to countries and leaders and build bipartisan-support structures necessary to strengthen the country. [the UN or the French apparently]
People’s views of the strength of your leadership have declined in the past few weeks. Is this in part because you were slow in responding to the Swift Boat ads?
I think we are doing extraordinarily well. If anybody had told me we’d be points apart from the sitting President of the United States, well, would you have believed them? [he can't believe he is dropping like a rock]
They haven’t done port security; they’re cutting cops; they haven’t taken assault weapons off the streets. Firehouses are opened in Iraq; they’re shut in the United States. Port security: 95% of our containers come in, and they are uninspected. [he plans fight the war on terror here]
I don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of the Bush bounce.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:47 am 76. Charlie (Colorado):Lovely compilation of typographical evidence of forgery. All the same stuff we’ve been talking about, but put together into one convenient page.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:48 am 77. Rick Ballard:Vietnam Vets for Truth is live on C-Span at 2PM Eastern.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:49 am 78. PeterUK:It has always struck me that the news as portrayed in the MSM required a suspension of disbelief,as soon as it is examined with skepticism or from a knowledgeable standpoint and the whole starts to crumble before your eyes.
How many times have commenters seen the MSM spout a complete cartload of balderdash,usually backed up by an “expert” or “community leader” who you know personally doesn’t know,wasn’t there,have never heard of or thought was a complete wazzock?
Then there are the sexed up camera shots where eleven people are made to look like a multitude.I was in Central London when the anti-Iraq War marches were held all I ever saw was the mess left behind.Yes there were a lot of them but mostly life went on as normal,yet to the MSM the March was the defining event in the Capital.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:53 am 79. richard mcenroe:jdwill ó Please tell me that’s another brilliant Karl Rove forgery? They’re not even showing the candidate his polls now? Or does he think no one who reads Time has seen the numbers?
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:54 am 80. jdwill:richard,
Well, the interview was done at 30,000 feet. Maybe it was oxygen depletion?
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:59 am 81. wiser:Dan Rather seems to be mounting a “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” defense. Dan Rather said: “I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don’t like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story…” Basically, Rather’s saying never mind that, just answer the charges. This is like, “Never mind where we got the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, rabbi, just answer the charges!” And where is Emile Zola when we need him? Anchoring the news at CBS.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:59 am 82. Rick Ballard:Richard,
The Black Knight lives!
“It’s only a flesh wound.
Sep 12, 2004 - 10:59 am 83. D Anghelone:Charlie (C) - I can’t decide if you should be congratulated, or beaten.
It’s always the indecision that saves me.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:01 am 84. Charlie (Colorado):“wazzock”?
Love the word … what’s it mean? I’d hate to use it incorrectly.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:01 am 85. jdwill:John Kerry: Got your Bounce Right Here
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:04 am 86. penwil:Richard,
Especially when it’s TIME itself that still has Bush with the big 11 point lead.
What’s more, in every poll Bush has opened up a 25 to 30 point lead in who you think would be tougher on dealing with terrorists. And Kerry’s answer is still that, by gosh, by golly, he would open up more fire stations and hire more cops.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:11 am 87. RogerA:DTP: OK, Dennis–where DID you see Sandy Berger in that outfit. And please stop with the imagery: I am tired of snorting coffee out my nose.
Catherine: only girly men own pajamas. Real men, well………….(acutally between memorial day and labor day I prefer white ducks, navy blazer, french blue shirt, white collars and cuffs with a yellow patterned tie.
I thought about the arrogance of the MSM; the lies compounded on lies, the stonewalling, the closing of ranks behind a “talent.” So what else could ’splain this? Fear comes to mind; they realize they have been caught by the blogosphere, and to admit it would mean the blogosphere does a better job than any of the media outlets do in analysis and assessment.
Have any of my colleagues been struck by how little the pundits know about the status of this story? What “knowledge” they have, if they divulge it all, is at least 48 hours behind.
The media the last I looked only had a 24 percent approval rating; this sorry episode will only drive their ratings lower. What choice do they have, assuming they are arrogant to start with and view themselves as the last word, but to close ranks behind a charlatan. Their fraud has been exposed; they have removed their candidate from the front page; they have poisoned the well so badly that even if they did have pictures of the President in compromising positions, they wont believed.
I fear we will not get the satisfaction of an admission of wrong, nor an apology–but we will be secure in the knowledge that this episode bury’s the influence of the MSM for once and for all.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:12 am 88. Charlie (Colorado):Jeff Goldstein has a commenter who points out that the “OETR” in the Buhs memos isn’t even the right acronym.
This may seem unimportant, but you have to recall that acronyms are nouns in DoDese. Typing “OETR” when you mean “OER” would be as obvious as typing “Christine” when you meant “Christopher”.
(BTW: the VVFT are pretty much tearing Kerry a new one. I look forward with some interest to see how this is reported.)
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:19 am 89. Jeffrey -- New York:Indeed. Dan Rather as the Black Knight.
ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT:
‘Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm’s off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn’t.
ARTHUR:
Well, what’s that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I’ve had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer–
BLACK KNIGHT:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You’ve got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
He he.
*
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:22 am 90. jdwill:Charlie — I’m watching/listening also. There are some counter-demonstrators. Maybe it will close with a little butt-kicking.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:24 am 91. jdwill:VVFT — Oh Yeah. John Kerry’s picture hangs as an honored hero … in a North Vietnam war museum. That’s gonna hurt.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:26 am 92. David [.net]:Was that Moby, as in “Moby in the Morning”?? Man, first all this typewriter stuff, now old Houston DJs. Feeling the years this weekend…
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:28 am 93. PeterUK:Charlie,
Wazzock- a derogatory colloquialism meaning buffoon,paltroon,idiot,fool.Northern England.
As in,’I go out with my trusty 12-gauge double-barrel, crawl around on my stomach … That’s hunting.’
That’s a Wazzock.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:34 am 94. Charlie (Colorado):Just for convenience: here’s FindLaw’s central source for Bush & Kerry’s military records.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:38 am 95. richard mcenroe:Just a general question for the group ó When was the last time you learned anything new on a subject from the MSM…?
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:41 am 96. Charlie (Colorado):Peter — thanks. That’s much what I thought, by inference, since you called Kerry one.
poltroon
adj : characterized by complete cowardliness
n : an abject coward syn: craven, recreant
That’s another lovely one. We should revive that one too, along with “blackguard”.
JD — as satisfying as it might be, I hope not: that would certainly then be the focus of any MSM coverage they do get.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:42 am 97. Charlie (Colorado):Which subject?
As far as Ra^{th}ergate, I’m watching the MSM’s coverage to find out when they learn new things.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:45 am 98. richard mcenroe:RogerA ó This just in ó Boston Globve finds Bush Iraqi prison photos on Russian porn site. “He was there! He knew!” Kranish exults…
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:45 am 99. Charlie (Colorado):Rather and Harkin’s records are getting a going over too.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:46 am 100. Fresh Air:Check beldar.org for more curiosities. USA Today has two pages that CBS doesn’t.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:53 am 101. Catherine:OK, DtP
That’s just nasty.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:09 pm 102. Catherine:Scott F
It works, doesn’t it?
That’s another one of the unsung virtues of this blog (and no doubt others): images like that, and turns of phrase, spring to mind—-and then they stay.
(Of course, that could be said equally for DtP and his middle-aged men in silk thongs.)
If I had to sit around trying to think up the perfect put-down for Dan Rather I couldn’t do it.
But now, thanks to roger-l-simon, we all have Diva Dan!
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:15 pm 103. flenser:This is getting discouraging. Fox News now has a story supposedly describing Bush’s ANG service. It includes mention of the contents of the forged memos’, and implies that they are part of the official record, with no mention of the controversy around them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132062,00.html
Are all journalists congenitally stupid?
I dropped them a line at comments@foxnews.com. Others may wish to do the same.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:16 pm 104. jdwill:Richard — A good story about how Russians gleaned news from Pravda and Ivestia (NRO via Instapundit)
So I do learn things from the MSM, often by reflection.
Charlie, Yes you are right, damn it.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:16 pm 105. Catherine:Jeffrey
Thanks for the post—I’ve been mulling all this over myself, and in these terms.
I love the image of a gazillion “stringers,” and of the “hive mind,” the collective wisdom of the crowd.
Dan Rather is being swarmed. (See Hugh Hewitt for a great discussion of swarming, plus links to military writings on the concept. Once I find out what an OODA loop is, I’ll know whether we’ve gotten inside Dan Rather’s.)
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:24 pm 106. Charlie (Colorado):Flenser — that’s an AP story from Friday. I’m not sure how news organizations handle this, but I’m pretty sure they can’t correct the text.
Still, as you say, it’s worth a note.
(Which I just mailed.)
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:25 pm 107. chuck:Heh, on LGF:
Rather lied, Kerry died.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:33 pm 108. Charlie (Colorado):Catharine — an OODA loop is the control loop for an organziation. In other words, the cycle of observe-decide-act. I forget what the other “o” is … (rummage rummage) here it is, “orientation”:
Col. John Boyd’s OODA observation
Here’s a nice explanation.
Hugh’s point, I think, is that with the blogosphere’s inherent parallelism and depth of knowledge, responses to attempts to attack by the DNC are responded to more quickly than the DNC can move them.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:34 pm 109. Catherine:I’m sure penwil & Old Dad are right
Great analogy.
This is certainly what I’ve always been led to believe, and I have friends who work in network news.
Normally, in criticizing the media, I think in terms of “institutional bias,” which is what I believe we see at the NYTIMES.
CBS may well have institutional bias–though in his recent interview Don Hewitt was highly critical of Clinton & sounded fairly “Republican” to me–but this particular situation is of Dan Rather’s making.
Normal mainstream journalists simply don’t screw up this spectacularly. The bias they show always stems from selective ommission of facts, slanted headlines, “stupid graphics” (recent WEEKLY STANDARD parody of the TIMES: “no graphic to stupid to publish), burying-the-lede, and so on.)
I can’t remember a single case of a MSM outlet putting forward forged documents as real. It must have happened before, but I don’t remember it.
The reason I don’t remember it is that it’s extremely rare-to-inconceivable.
I asked my husband about the same issue in the profession of history.
He couldn’t think of a single case of forged documents in his field, either. There have been people who have footnoted documents that didn’t exist (Bellelisle), and a fair number of people who have plagiarized others’ work.
But nobody forges documents.
He said the difficulty of forging historical documents, which is what the 60 MINUTES documents are, makes it unimaginable anyone would even try. You’d have to match paper & paper age, print, ink, fonts and/or handwriting styles . . . historians who want to commit fraud simply do not forge documents.
By the same token, journalists who want, consciously or not, to defeat a sitting president also do not forge documents.
What I’m saying is: this is very, very crazy.
Crazy on the order of “What’s the frequency, Kenneth.”
This is Rather’s “show,” the whole thing.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:37 pm 110. richard mcenroe:Flenser ó The amazing thing is they ran the timeline right below an article saying the documents are fakes! Do they even read their own stuff?
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:41 pm 111. jdwill:Catherine,
I’m not a poet, and I know it,
but I couldn’t resist:
OODA LOOPA doodadee doo
i’ve got a perfect puzzle for you
OODA LOOPA, doodadah dee
if you are wise you’ll listen me
what do you get when you fisk CBS
fact checks in Dan Rather’s face
why is his fame getting terribly lame
how does he think he will get out of shame
i don’t like the look of it
OODA LOOPA doodadee Dan
if you’re not greedy you will go far
you will live in happiness too
like the OODA LOOPA doodadee do
doodadee doo
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:41 pm 112. Catherine:Richard M
Michael Dobbs in WAPO.
The guy is incredible.
I emailed Dan Okrent today suggesting they hire him away from the POST>
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:43 pm 113. Charlie (Colorado):Catherine, let me commend to you again the Steven Horowitz article. Here’s something else he says:
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:43 pm 114. jdwill:John Kerry said - How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
On CSpan, at the VVFT Rally - Whose cause is lost now, John Kerry?
I still don’t know enough to be sure we should have fought in Vietnam, but we did have to resist communism.
John O’Neill stepping up now.
Sep 12, 2004 - 12:59 pm 115. Pearl:Since it is the general consensus that what happened 30 years ago shouldn’t have any impact on what’s happening now, I think the WH should put out this type of statement:
President Bush has admitted in past interviews that he was young and irresponsible in his youth. However, it should be pointed out that nothing he did besmirched or endangered the lives of soldiers serving at that time or since.
Okay, maybe not, as it would only serve to muddy the waters when we should be focusing on the lack of integrity of the MSM.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:17 pm 116. penwil:“Rather lied, Kerry died.”
There might be a modicum of truth in that. Witness the swiftboat vet story: after a spring and summer of one Bush-bashing book after another–many of which were showcased on good ol’ 60 Minutes and became major mainstream media stories in themselves (remember Richard Clark? Heard his name mentioned lately?)–the one book (and story) that is ending up having a measurable impact on the election is Unfit for Command and the swfitboat vets. And the one difference between all the Bush bashing books and Unfit for Command (leaving aside judgments on truth and accuracy for the moment), is that for the swiftboat vets the driving force of their story was the internet, not 60 Minutes or the other MSM players. Now after literally months of the MSM pounding the AWOL story to death and getting nowhere with it, the internet in less that 12 hours seizes the narrative away from themand changes it from AWOL to Dan Rather and the forgery caper.
If the public at large arrives at a general consensus that the documents were indeed forged, then it is also going to be viewed an act of dirty smear politics taken too far, and that in turn could reverberate onto Kerry.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:20 pm 117. Charlie (Colorado):AND: For those of you who have not or won’t get far enough in the comments, I would like to echo Catherine’s praise below for this essay by Steve Horvitz.
“You can accomplish much if you don’t care who gets the credit.”
*snif*
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:27 pm 118. richard mcenroe:FWIW, here is the comment I just sent to Fox:
I notice with bemusement that you have included without comment the alleged memos presented by Dan Rather and 60 Minutes. Surely there has been enough evidence and expert commentary presented by now, as to their probably being forged, that you cannot responsibly include these documents without noting their questionable status. Indeed, you posted your timeline on your website directly below a link to an article rebutting their authenticity! Do you even read your own material, or watch your own programs?
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:30 pm 119. Charlie (Colorado):Dan Rather in pyjamas.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:31 pm 120. Rick Ballard:Charlie(C),
Horwitz not Horowitz. I read it the way you wrote it too but Roger caught it.
Catherine,
You may be right about it being 99% Rather but his staff still failed him. Any organization that allows the talents ego to demean the franchise deserves whatever happens to it. I strongly recommend that OODA explanatory article. The net is so far inside the MSM loop that the battle is over.
Diva Dan the Dino is sinking into the tar pit and the MSM is circled around him watching without much pity and wondering why they find it so difficult to lift their feet.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:35 pm 121. Charlie (Colorado):…after a spring and summer of one Bush-bashing book after another–many of which were showcased on good ol’ 60 Minutes and became major mainstream media stories in themselves (remember Richard Clark? Heard his name mentioned lately?)–the one book (and story) that is ending up having a measurable impact on the election is Unfit for Command and the swfitboat vets.
Idealist that I am, it’s hard not to think this might have something to do with the fact that the SBVFT stuff was actually true, and didn’t need forgery or radical interpretation to support it.
I think that’s one of the points of Horwitz’s article that Catherine praised so — in a condition of free expression and liberty of thought, the truth sorts itself out of the noise.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:35 pm 122. Jamie Irons:John O’Neill a few moments ago on C-SPAN:
(I probably haven’t got the quote exactly.)
Jamie Irons
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:37 pm 123. Charlie (Colorado):Horwitz not Horowitz. I read it the way you wrote it too but Roger caught it.
Well, no, actually Roger spelled it with a ‘v’.
It’s all a Jewish ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H neocon plot to confuse us.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:38 pm 124. Charlie (Colorado):Just by the way, I looked back at Susan Estrich’s “playing dirty” column and noted this:
(Also, her column seems to have disappeared from the Creators Syndicate site. Luckily I found it on NewsMax.)
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:47 pm 125. Rick Ballard:Charlie(C),
He’s also linking to his own Iranian post under the Beldar link.
Maybe it’s not a neocon plot - it could just be bad juniperberry juice.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:50 pm 126. jdwill:Anybody - re VVFT Rally on CSpan
What was the name of the vet that confessed to participating in Winter Soldier and asked for forgiveness? I had to miss it.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:52 pm 127. Fresh Air:All–
I have just discovered that one of the PDF’s of the Bush “documents” was scanned and created on February 6th, 2004. The ones at CBS and USA Today were created in September.
These forgeries have been around for months.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:53 pm 128. Fresh Air:Sorry, forgot to add the document was found at Fox’s website.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:54 pm 129. Charlie (Colorado):IBD (via Glenn):
Wall Street is noticing.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:56 pm 130. Charlie (Colorado):I have just discovered that one of the PDF’s of the Bush “documents” was scanned and created on February 6th, 2004. The ones at CBS and USA Today were created in September.
Wait — which ones are which? Those dates would fit fairly neatly with the Belkins theory.
Sep 12, 2004 - 1:59 pm 131. jdwill:Time Shows the MSM are still Dinosaurs
Its just tit-for-tat, a cycle of violence.
No bias here folks, just move along.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:02 pm 132. Rick Ballard:jdwill,
Steve Pitikin - he’s got an affidavit out that I can’t find right now.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:03 pm 133. Charlie (Colorado):If you want to forge your own documents, at least use reasonable fonts for crying out loud.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:06 pm 134. Fresh Air:Charlie (C)–
Document properties are as follows:
Fox News: Scanned on HP. Created on February 6, 2004. Faxed on September 10 (number is visible at top).
USA Today: Created using Adobe 6.0 on September 9 and modified on September 11.
CBS: Created on September 8 using Adobe 5.1 plug in for Windows. Not modified.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:08 pm 135. Charlie (Colorado):Rick — “Pitkin”.
Why am I spelling-man all of a sudden?
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:09 pm 136. Rick Ballard:Just noticed that I screwed up the Beldar link too. It’s worth a read.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:09 pm 137. Charlie (Colorado):Beldar leads us to this, by Dr Joseph Newcomer.
He concludes, with very very strong evidence that — as an expert in Microsoft typography, specifically recognized as a “Microsoft MVP” for his contributions — that the documents are forgeries, made with Microsoft Word.
Get out your pyjamas, Dan.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:17 pm 138. jdwill:Rick, Charlie — Thanks!
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:17 pm 139. Catherine:Jamie Irons
I say we all adopt this as a general policy.
Seriously.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:18 pm 140. lindenen:ChicagoBoyz.net has a post about this. Including speculation on what the powers that be may try to do to chill free speech on the internet.
“Howard Dean said he was going to send the Justice Department after Fox News, to the roar of his fans. He was serious. These people will not go down as easily as Gorbachev. Their world is ending and they are going to try to hurt the people who are doing it to them.
The blogosphere needs to start thinking about what the counter-attack is going to look like. Legal? Regulatory? Technological? Lawsuits against selected bloggers to bankrupt them and scare the others? Prosecutions against selected bloggers in Democrat-controlled states to silence them and scare the others?
We should start wargaming the bad guys’ next move. There will be a next move. Count on it.”
They also mention the RIAA lawsuits and how it might only take bankrupting a few bloggers to seriously chill free speech.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:18 pm 141. jdwill:Oh yeah, the Time article has a new ‘expert’ — basic argument you could have made the memos with a typwriter — no facts (silly people) as to how.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:20 pm 142. Catherine:Jack White
Whoa.
OK, you’re way ahead of me.
Wow.
I think you’re right.
I think you’re right, because, as I’ve been saying, forged documents in a major news story are bizarre. Pro-Bush bloggers are seeing this episode through the what-liberal-media lens; they’re thinking this is par-for-the-what-liberal-media course.
But it’s not.
NOBODY DOES THIS.
NOBODY USES FORGED DOCUMENTS.
Boy.
Are we looking at Where there’s smoke there’s fire?
We probably are.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:23 pm 143. Rick Ballard:Catherine,
“Seriously”
The stiletto heels and boa is a running joke that pops up from time to time. There’s nothing “serious” about it.
Of course, CBS news is a running joke too, so it is difficult to distinguish fact from fiction.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:37 pm 144. Charlie (Colorado):Catherine — I think that’s really right. Everything “60 Minutes” and CBS News has done for years will be suspect, and examined in some detail. Things like the the Westmoreland thing may well be more visible. (If you look into that one, you’ll discover — I had forgotten — that CBS settled with Westmoreland. “The suit was dropped, however, before reaching the jury, with CBS merely issuing a statement saying the network never meant to impugn the general’s patriotism.” But CBS lost their libel insurance over it, which makes me suspicious that it was very expensive getting Westmoreland to drop the suit.)
Bernie Goldberg is probably giddy.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:42 pm 145. Charlie (Colorado):The stiletto heels and boa is a running joke that pops up from time to time.
The notion of running in 13-inch heels and thigh-high boots seems a little suspect, too.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:44 pm 146. chuck:jdwill,
Time just wanted to be sure their article was “balanced”. You know how it is, one melon balances one grape because there is one of each.
Sep 12, 2004 - 2:48 pm 147. Warthog:The only thing that can make this story better is that Rather outs McAullife as the source. Can’t imaging creating a more despicable personality to head a (formerly) major political party.
Sep 12, 2004 - 3:05 pm 148. Occam's Beard:That’s the problem - the broadcasters have become celebrities in their own right, leading them to interview each other (my pet peeve) all too often.
They are not the news - they merely present the news.
We should call them “newsreaders” - which they are - and the networks should have a whole stable of them, no one of which appears so often as to become a celebrity. In short, adopt the British practice, which I think is on the money.
Sep 12, 2004 - 3:57 pm 149. Samuel:Sorry for the longish posts of late but Samuel is pissed
This fully acts as a reminder to the main reason why I decided to go from Democrat to Republican. I actually believe my reasons are more often the case then not for others as well.
Is it ideology? No way, I am to the left of Tony Blair according to the political tests. Is it Social Policy? Again no, I am fairly split. On one hand I am for Gay Marriage and Pro-Choice. When a clear majority of Women decide they are pro-life is when in truth this might change, pro-choice for me is a deferring to them. Also School Vouchers and Private Account for younger people seem to me no-brainers if we care to realistically move forward in the case of Education and Social Security. I could write a ledger and would be fairly split on the issues. Had I not been so partisan before I would have recognized that, like Catherine, I was probably more to the right then I realized. This caused me to vote more to the left of my own personal sentiments so as with her a 5 point shift to the right post 911 made me right of center rather then left of center, but even that is shallow explanation. Obviously I have grown more comfortable defaulting right of myself rather then left, again why?
The truth of the matter one reason and one reason only is why my instincts said switch and it is not the WOT as I could support that as a Democrat anyway. Plain and simple it is the issue of “personal responsibility” and the much higher premium the Republican’s place on this.
When I hear Dan Rather, Juan Williams and the rest on the left say, “the substance of the memo is what is more important then the whether it is fraudulent”, I am reminded.
When I see the collective MSM go in the tank because the end justifies the means, I am reminded.
When I see the Democrats and the left honor the man Bill Clinton, a person who lived the full spirit of a draft dodger while they argue principle on the same issue concerning Bush, I am reminded.
I am a Republican now is confirmed in me by what I see now going on in this political season. The Republicans are more arguing principles they believe in, the Democrats are seeking to destroy Bush by any means, or as Zell Miller calls it “an obsession to bring down our Commander and Chief”. The fact Kerry has a hard time defending himself is based in the fact he has done things he can’t defend, no good principles can bear him up.
I remember Chris Shays (who voted against impeachment by the way) tell Chris Matthews, “If Bill Clinton were a Republican he would be impeached by Republicans and thrown out”. When Matthews further inquired he said, “the Party and especially the base of the Republican Party would demand it”. In truth I thought, “If Clinton were a Republican we’d join in and help!”
About a year ago it became apparent to me that I desired to be part of a political base that would more do things, agree or not, out of principle. The Republicans are more self policing as well. Pat Buchanan and other paleo-conservatives no-longer feel very welcome and to me that is a good sign. Al Sharpton on the other hand still had a speaking slot at the Democratic Convention. This leads me to summarize the current difference in the service between Bush and Kerry. Since the Democrats focus on intent, saying Kerry volunteered and Bush was A-Wall let’s review some things…
–
Kerry’s Service
Kerry volunteered for the United States Navy after college and served from 1966 through 1970 rising to the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade. His service in the reserves carried through 1978. Here is part of Kerry’s testimony before Congress…
“I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”
Now he testified they were committed day to day. All wars have atrocities occur but day-to-day systematic basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels? This has been long recognized as indefensible by any person with a sense of reality. But that being said truth or not, what was Kerry’s excuse, the ends justifies the means? Also remember, either way at the time he was a Naval Officer.
Kerry met in France as an anti-war protester with representatives of the Viet Cong. Again, at the time, he was a Naval Officer.
Kerry attended meetings in Kansas City (and falsely denied it) and failed to report discussions of the assassination of elected officials while serving as an officer in the Naval Reserve. Again, at the time, he was a Naval Officer.
–
Bush’s Service
Bush went got into the TX ANG because he met criteria and was willing to commit to a 6-year commitment. There is no true corroborated evidence of strings being pulled.
He met his TX ANG requirements for every year except for the last, for which he received an early release from his commitment. No evidence to the latter year having been reason of bad personal conduct as that is all conjecture. The only true thing we have to go on is he received an honorable discharge.
It is sad when the Unprincipled Party and the MSM cry about Kerry’s war record being justified by Naval records using the best assumptions for what is left out, but won’t accept official records of George Bush’s honorable discharge and use the worst assumptions for the rest. Do they want it one way for them and another for Republican… of course! Lack of principles leads to such justifications. If one truly wants fairness to weigh reason with equal balance, then review of the sources with the same manner of justifications. So either take all evidence at face value, especially true substantiated evidence, or take conjecture from all sides. TO apply a different set baseline for each party is not credible. Do we take official records at face value or do we require candidates to justify the official records? Either shut up about the Swifties or shut up about AWOL.
Here is where I want to point out what the MSM will not, but rest assured they would if the candidates were reversed in political affiliations…
–
Back to Kerry
John Kerry was forced to volunteer for the Navy after his 4-year student deferment, that’s right, he got a deferment, yet they have criticized Cheney for getting a deferment, of course he is a Republican and does not have the last name Clinton. The truth is Kerry only got one deferment because his deferment was about to expire, and guess what? His request for further deferment was denied!
Now Kerry joined the Navy instead of getting drafted into the Army or Marines which is ok. He also volunteered for Swift Boat duty but did so before it quit doing safe shore duty and started doing brown-water duty. Again, he served and deserves credit, but the impression left that he entered clamoring for action is ridiculous. Again, he got shot at, pulled a guy out of the water, and he probably deserved some medals. But his intentions upon entering and his desire to get the hell out ASAP is quite obvious and who can blame him? But characterizing him as heroically volunteering for Viet Nam and dangerous duty is crap. The Swifties changed to dangerous missions after he entered, it was not what he anticipated. My point is the Democrats and the MSM like to point to motive, and in this they imply Kerry’s motives had more honor and self seeking risk on his part then reality and evidence show, in short the are re-writing his story in the best possible light.
–
Back to Bush
Comparing motives since that is the desire of the MSM necessitates further comparison. Bush volunteered for the TX ANG by agreeing to an extra 4 years of commitment. Now remember at the time Bush signed up, his TX ANG unit was rotating into Viet Nam, so he went in with knowledge of significant risk up front. They were also responsible for patrolling the U.S. Coast, so in the event Cuba acted up Cold War), his unit would have been involved. Now surely one could say he may have calculated that the 2-3 years of training would outlive the length of the war, but that is total conjecture. As it turned out, by the time he got into his fourth or fifth year of his commitment, the war pretty much was over and the planes he was trained on were being phased out. Did he miss some drills? Probably. At that time did anyone care? Probably not.
–
People here are the bottom lines…
1)
Kerry volunteered for Swift Boat duty when it wasn’t dangerous and it turned out to be dangerous.
Bush volunteered for TX ANG pilot duty when it was dangerous and it ended up being discontinued.
WHO CARES?
2)
Kerry ran on his Vietnam record. With that he refuses to sign the 180 form releasing his records that M Simon constantly clamors for. (Keep it up, despite it annoying Charlie of Colorado, I like it. There are 96 identified records that have not been produced. Further, Bush never ran on his military record, while Kerry did, yet he still released all of his records. (Sorry he couldn’t release the fraudulent ones yet to be forged)
As Bush has said, “Kerry should be proud of his service”. Is their parts he is not proud of? He chose to hide his Senate record behind his Vietnam service, I don’t think he was a fool for serving, I do think he was a fool for basing his campaign on such service. But also…
I don’t think Bush was a draft-dodger either. Bush says Kerry’s service was more honorable than his. Kerry chose to launch a political career by lying widespread, systematic day-to-day atrocities committed with the knowledge of commanders(which he also was). Bush never made claims of honor or dishonor about Vietnam as Kerry has. Kerry open his yapper to public testimony, he must now live with the consequences of all his service, rhetoric, the good bad and ugly, and not just what he and the MSM desire it to be. The Swifties know have their right to counter, the MSM and Kerry’s desire to censor and control the topic rather then even handedly address all equally is a failure of historical proportions.
The real shame is that the Swifties have to pay millions to get what the MSM would gladly do for free if it were Bush who carried John Kerry?s record. To quote from the Good Book, the MSM “strains at a gnat while they swallow the camel whole”.
They can have the Camel, I want to keep my honor.
Sep 12, 2004 - 3:58 pm 150. RogerA:Warthog: were you, perchance, an A-10 pilot at some point in your life?
Catherine: The feathered boa thingee is a product of our very own Dennis’ supercharged command of visual imagery–you would do best considering which of us posts in our pajamas and dont get Dennis involved.
Re the Horwitz essay: absolutely brilliant–not only does it cofirm Hayek’s thoughts, it also confirms John Stuart Mill’s thoughts he posited in “On Liberty.” We finally have the technology to make it happen–this really is the death knell for the MSM as we know it–with any luck they will be reduced to doing what they should have done all along: report on what happened in as objective terms as possible and let the rest of us, right or left, liberal or conservative, figure it out on or own.
Sep 12, 2004 - 3:59 pm 151. RogerA:Samuel: as always, a superlative post. Thank you.
Sep 12, 2004 - 4:05 pm 152. Terrye:Sometimes I despair.
I had to work today and when I got home I turned on the TV. mistake.
There was Juan Williams yammering on about Bush being AWOL and the swifties being liars and I thought, here we have it. The best defence is a good offence.
So Juan could care less if the socalled journalists at CBS news took it upon themselves to see to it that the peasants got the right ideas, he is concerned about who saw Bush in Alabama 31 years ago.
The man is dumb as a bucket of rocks. I would write another letter to Fox but they would no doubt look at the source, roll their eyes, say ‘her again’ and toss it.
Time for an alias.
Sep 12, 2004 - 4:29 pm 153. Samuel:RogerA
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Sep 12, 2004 - 4:32 pm 154. RogerA:Terrye–stop watching TV! Stay with your blogs–the information is more current and where else can you see the pensee’s of Dennis the Peasant?
Sep 12, 2004 - 4:39 pm 155. Samuel:Terrye
You can read my take on this above, and I don’t have time to post I just can’t contain myself.
I have gone from discouraged to pissed believe me. I read the following minutes ago in the washingtonmonthly.com comment section…
–
Let’s stop getting into a debate over plausible deniability with these right wing bozos. All the new evidence — not just the 4 pages disputed by four half-ass typewriter experts — is consistent with PREVIOUSLY-KNOWN FACTS: Bush ducked service, failed to fulfill his commitments, and lied about all of it.
Grow some stones Dems — ASSUME ALL OF IT IS TRUE, because all of it is consistent with what we know is true.
This fits into a larger theme — Bush DUCKED and DODGED his whole life — Kerry DIDN’T. Bush ducks and lets others fight and take responsibility for him. Kerry doesn’t. It goes back to Vietnam and it continues today with Iraq and the economy.
Stay on the offensive with this one — and every other one of his screw ups. Force Bush to account for all of it. ALL OF IT.
Unnamed sources confirm all of it is true.
–
You are the one person I believe has said word for word what I have also said… “I will never forgive them.” And believe you me I won’t. The above trash is why I wrote I said what I did in my first post.
Sep 12, 2004 - 4:44 pm 156. RogerA:Samuel: I do hope you arent letting this stuff get to you from a health standpoint–take heart: (not your bible, but relevant). From the book of John: ye shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Think also about the trials faced by Job. It’s higher power time!
When all of this is over, the MSM will have lost; the blogosphere will have established itself as an independent voice to determine truth or falsity of events, and ultimately, we will all be better off–irrespective of who wins the election.
Sep 12, 2004 - 5:02 pm 157. jdwill:For what its worth:
I used the EC calculator map to get the Base electoral college votes for each candidate, then made a spreadsheet with the Battle Ground State poll numbers from the invaluable RealClearPolitics site. You will have to set a few states on the calculator to get the same battleground set as RealClearPolitics.com.
You can zoom into a state on this site (RCP) for a long view history of polling. T Bevin has a page with his electoral prediction, but his toss ups differ from the states when sorted by average poll percentages and I like to be able to run my eye over the numbers.
It looks like a squeaker so far [negative values are percentages for Kerry]. Pennsylvania is the cliff hanger and the prize that would crush Kerry, however, Kerry can win as it sits. The story not seen here, of course, is the momentum that Bush has picked up this last month. I put a *Z where I thought Zogby polls, which tend to be outliers, were dragging it towards Kerry a bit.
You may want to copy this to a mono-spaced font display like notepad.
BattleGround EC Current 2000
State Vote Spread Spread
New Hampshire 4 -6.3 1.3
Washington 11 -6.2 -5.6
New Jersey 15 -6.0 -15.9
Maine 4 -5.0 -5.1
New Mexico*Z 5 -4.8 -0.1
Oregon 7 -4.5 -0.5
Michigan 17 -4.2 -5.2
Iowa 7 -3.0 -0.3
Minnesota 10 -2.6 -2.4
Tennessee 11 -1.9 3.0
Pennsylvania 21 -0.5 -4.2
For Kerry 112
Plus 153 Base 265
Colorado 9 0.0 0.0
Wisconsin*Z 10 0.9 -0.2
Nevada 5 1.3 3.5
Florida 27 1.6 0.1
Arkansas 6 2.9 5.5
Missouri 11 5.1 3.3
Ohio 20 7.2 3.5
West Virginia 5 8.4 6.3
For Bush 93
Plus 180 Base 273
Sep 12, 2004 - 5:31 pm 158. richard mcenroe:Terrye ó Juan Williams and the typist in the Post comments section are both reduced to the ultimate argument of the left: “If I talk loudly enough and never stop talking, no one can disagree with me…”
Sep 12, 2004 - 5:37 pm 159. jdwill:Oh, Canada!
I swear, I thought we had lost Canada (I’m a Michigander with Canadian friends, and they have really been sniffing at us and Bush). I couldn’t find a signature by Mark Steyn - though this may be his paper.
The whole thing is a breath of fresh air.
Sep 12, 2004 - 5:46 pm 160. Samuel:RogerA
I appreciate that, but I am the oldest son with a type A personality, stress is what I thrive on. I also still confidently predict Bush winning 53-57% of the vote. The part that gets to me however is the personalized angst I carry towards my former compadres on the left. Add to this a “Jewish Conscience” that bears guilt in unique ways and you get my state of mind. Maybe it is like Jews that hate Jews, or Gays that hate Gays, this tendency among men does exist. Maybe I have become a Liberal that hates Liberals. If so this is because they are hijacked by passions that trump principle. The example above of a liberals post is an example of what I hate. They make unprincipled deals with a devil they ought not. There aren’t enough Lawrence O’Donnell’s, Pat Cordell’s and Mort Kondrake’s in this world to make up the difference.
While many fellow Jews may decide to stay with the Dems I am doing everything I can to convince my children differently. My 17 year old daughter is a done deal, she is even pro-Life but her conservatism pre-dates mine anyway, she laments not being able to vote for Dubya, he is like JFK to her. Frankly, watching the press try to bring down a President and so blatantly back a candidate when their job is to bring up front objectivity I view as borderline treason. No matter because I believe they will get their comeuppance this November. Looking back now we sold our souls for Clinton and have yet to pay the cost. Well I am trying.
Sep 12, 2004 - 5:52 pm 161. Catherine:Jack White
Whoa.
OK, you’re way ahead of me.
Wow.
I think you’re right.
I think you’re right, because, as I’ve been saying, forged documents in a major news story are bizarre. Pro-Bush bloggers are seeing this episode through the what-liberal-media lens; they’re thinking this is par-for-the-what-liberal-media course.
But it’s not.
NOBODY DOES THIS.
NOBODY USES FORGED DOCUMENTS.
Boy.
Are we looking at Where there’s smoke there’s fire?
We probably are.
Sep 12, 2004 - 6:21 pm 162. Terrye:richard:
You are right. That is what pisses me off about Juan. I could live with the partisan Dem thing, he is just so obnoxious and will not let anybody else finish a sentence. yakyakyak
I wish Brit would punch him in the nose.
Sep 12, 2004 - 6:32 pm 163. Samuel:Terrye
I wish Brit would punch him in the nose.
Brit is too classy of a guy for that but worse this might inspire sympathy for Juan. I think Juan revealing himself for the knee jerk buffoon he is quite frankly is punishment enough.
Catherine
Dan Rather will be unraveled… I think.
That unraveling has already begun… The anchor has no clothes. Will fellow MSM journalist dare say so? Stay tuned.
Sep 12, 2004 - 6:43 pm 164. Terrye:Samuel:
Tell em to to go to Hell, it will make you feel better.
I got that Bush is a coward lecture the other day. I told the guy that if he was such a gungho mother why didn’t he stop running his mouth about what he thought Bush did decades ago and go join up himself. They are always looking for a few good men.
In truth they have to know that is shit. They can not endorse Clinton and Dean and the VP Edwards who never served at all and trash Bush for missing a pohysical. They were not there, they don’t know the circumstances. They don’t choose to believe the words of the swifties for what they themselves saw and experienced so why should I believe some Bush hater who wasn’t even there?
And besides all that, nobody cares and this obsession with the National Guard makes them look strange and bizarre.
Do we know if Kerry fulfilled all his duty? Has anybody checked?
Sep 12, 2004 - 6:46 pm 165. Samuel:Terrye
I posted in another thread how I am so pissed I did what I never do, I went to liberal blogs and picked a few fights. I was respectful and never played the gotcha game. I stayed detailed, disciplined, factual and stuck with the topic at hand (OH MY GOD I AM A REPUBLICAN!)
Anyway I avoided being called a troll, in truth they more acted that part.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:10 pm 166. Terrye:Samuel:
I used to go on liberal boards but it just got old after awhile. Like talking to a bunch of infants. Dennis should do that for awhile, we could call it troll hunting.
I noticed that jdwill put up electoral numbers… does anybody know the deal with Zogby? Every poll gave Bush a big lead in Mo. except Zogby. It is as if they are talking to entirely different people. Take them out and watch Bush’s numbers go up.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:29 pm 167. Godzilla:Terrye
I heard on one of the talk shows (either Rush, Hannity, or Hewitt) that Zogby is pro-Kerry. Personally, I’m not believing the polls anymore. They can be too easily rigged.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:49 pm 168. David [.net]:Tradesports’ Bush contract is reaching the end of its supply. It’s been moving up steadily since just before the convention, but now there aren’t even many more shares offered:
http://www.tradesports.com/jsp/intrade/common/c_cd.jsp?conDetailID=11738&z=1095024503359
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:50 pm 169. zeppenwolf:“Sorry for the longish posts of late but Samuel is pissed”
No worries– it’s also true that Samuel is eloquent.
Hor’itz: “…were able to compete with, and effectively neutralize, one of the most powerful organizations on the planet.”
False, by my reckoning– we haven’t won yet. Offer your own opinions, but it looks to me like Joe Sixpack America is currently under the impression that, briefly, “CBS has some memos about Bush’s AWOL, and some experts think they’re suspicious looking, but who the heck really knows? Something about kerning in 1972…”
Am I too pessimistic?
“I don’t believe that CBS or others exhibit deliberate, conscious bias against conservatives.”
Here I think the author himself is showing a “deliberate, conscious bias” in favor of being a nice guy. Whatever is actually in Rather’s mind, conscious or un, he is guilty of gross negligence with respect to his own integrity; I cannot gloss over his statements as a mere difference of his “point-of-view” or somesuch. A duck is a duck.
PS: I petition that all comment software in the blogoshpere be tweaked so that we can use the HTML “superscript” tag (”sup”). Only fair. The common good.
Sep 12, 2004 - 7:50 pm 170. Samuel:zeppenwolf
You are too kind, thank you. I never imagined the MSM to be as biased when I was on the left. From that vantage point I thought they were fairly moderate and Rush Limbaugh and Matt Drudge damn hacks. I now view the MSM with a disgust I never could have dreamed of. I still don’t care for Rush Limbaugh though I respect his talent, I just find him too much a cheerleader. Matt Drudge and Bloggers I view as critical. Fox News however is the crown jewel among them all as they outwardly symbolize a final sign that the gig is up. The MSM can’t spin their way out of Fox News’s success try as they may.
What I find funny is how the other networks rail against Fox News as a “Right Wing Network” yet it is lost on them that if Fox News is “Right Wing” then what does that make those members of the MSM who make such accusations, Centrists? They may feel justified in such thinking yet by default in such pronouncements they are acknowledging their left leaning tendencies
No doubt Matt Drudge + Rush Limbaugh + Weblogs = an MSM that is starting to stare at a market with the dynamics of necessary competition for self correction, for if they don’t further market share erosion will follow and they know it. If not then they deserve the impending death penalty being imposed on there operations.
Sep 12, 2004 - 8:48 pm 171. devildog:I liked the “How About a Little Perspective” post.
Sep 12, 2004 - 11:50 pm