27 Comments

1. Sandy P:

Has anyone been paying attention to the process?

Since CBS has been working on this story for either 4-5 years or a couple of months, when did they get the memos?

Does it seem odd they authenticated these right before they air the program?

Did they sit on the memos?

Sep 15, 2004 - 9:39 am 2. Michael B:

“You have to look at who these people are.”

Good grief, that really is pathetic. This Chicago Trib guy, James O’Shea, sounds like an ageing ancien regime royalist, suspicious of the press, yet failing to see the irony. This is not anarchy, it’s fact checking, plain and simple. And it’s precisely the plain and simple quality here that causes these ancien regime guys to retreat into platitudes, poorly founded suspicions and even a kind of paranoia. His views and reality don’t match up, hence it’s reality that must be at fault.

It isn’t true that these MSM “emperors” have no clothes; they’re wearing clown suits with brightly colored noses that honk when squeezed, yet are busy convincing themselves of their sartorial splendor. The self-parody and self-mockery continues.

Sep 15, 2004 - 9:57 am 3. Charlie (Colorado):

Folks, it’s now 1300 EDT and I can’t find anything about CBS’s actual statement. I’m engaged in actually working on my day job, so I guess I’m just not finding it, but if I’m right, then they’re having some tough negotiations.

I’m increasingly betting Rather’s on his way out.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:00 am 4. RogerA:

No, Sandy P: they waited to coordinate them with the DNC fortunate son spot

Roger: spot on–the credentials of the bloggers far surpass any of the MSM who are fundamentally J-school grads with little expertise outside journalism; little if any content area expertise: and the problems of journalism are all too apparent now. I stopped reading any but the Grant County Journal six months ago (I do need to keep up with local stuff). All of my news comes from the blogs, and I have no doubts about it being fact checked and properly edited (even if I dont use preview).

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:00 am 5. Rick Ballard:

It is eerie to watch CBS adopt precisely the same “Black Knight” defense that the Kerry campaign tried regarding the Swiftvets. They don’t even acknowledge a “flesh wound”. The head lays on the ground shouting in futile defiance to the amusement of all who are watching.

Were this not a matter of import due to the quite obvious attempt to influence an election through knowing fraud using obviously forged documents it would make an amusing comedy sketch. I wonder if Kerry will hold Rathers hand as their ship slips beneath the waves? They hold precisely the same core beliefs, the central truth being that they are infinitely more worthy than all others and that some magical event will surely awaken the plebes to an acknowledgement of their rarified status.

I firmly believe now that the memos were kept in the same “secret” compartment of Kerry’s briefcase as the hat. I wonder what else is to be withdrawn from that briefcase as “evidence” in proof of Kerry’s delusion of grandeur?

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:05 am 6. chuck:

I had heard the writers union building was one of the most sumptuous in Moscow with a grand wood-paneled dining room with fabulous food and free-flowing vodka. That proved to be true

“The Master and Margarita” jumps to mind. I am glad to hear that Bulgakov got it exactly right.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:11 am 7. Red:

> You have to look at who these people are.

> We have to put some scrutiny on the bloggers.

Of course, Mr. O’Shea is also preparing an investigation into the personal and business relationships his fellow reporters — and their spouses, and their families — have with politicians, political parties, lobbying groups, and business interests.

Most bloggers reveal a lot of information about their background, interests, and associations.

Where do I look to learn the same about Mr. O’Shea? Where’s his wife work? His kids?

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:14 am 8. Katherine:

Chuck,

Bulghakov was writing from the very inside. Heíd know.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:28 am 9. David [.net]:

The primary standard for blogs developing this story has been reproducibility, subjected to peer review. No one has been asked to believe anything.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:29 am 10. David Thomson:

James O’Shea and his fellow professional journalists are most assuredly worried about their future income. These people are not protected by civil service. They do not have a guaranteed job for life. Deep in their guts, they rightfully sense that the downfall of CBS will also hurt them. This is no longer a matter of mere ideology—but a probable financial crisis for a large number of credentialed individuals. Some of them are no longer spring chickens. Finding another way of earning a living will not be pleasant.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:33 am 11. Lapsed Randian:

This kind of comment has the same arrogant whiff as Teresa Kerry’s calling everybody who disagrees with her husband’s healthcare proposal an “idiot.” If she would actually say such a thing, imagine what she thinks.

One of the most interesting things about old guard liberals is their intellectual snobbery, but they usually keep their guard up enough to hide it. Folks like this truly do believe they are smarter than everybody else. If O’Shea would drop his guard enough to say such a thing, imagine what he acually thinks.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:34 am 12. Katherine:

I think Rick got it precisely right.

From a transcript of former senator Fred Thompson on John Gibson’s Fox show (via The Corner)

ìGIBSON: do you have an explanation as to why the d.n.c. would ignore the advice of bill clinton and leave this issue (TANG) alone?

SEN.THOMPSON: i don’t know. it’s a difficult one to answer. i think that probably some insiders over there are so mad and so angry, you know, they are — they are smarter and prettier and have more sophisticated new answer positions on everything and more intellectual. and yet they still can’t quite get the point across. and here bush keeps lucy and the football — they keep missing it and bush keeps scoring. and i think there’s a lot of anger out there. and i think their manhood is at stake with regard to some of them.î

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:35 am 13. Catherine:

“who these people are”—–

Yet another example of avoidable collateral damage.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:51 am 14. Warthog:

If 300 million of us are going to live together peacefully then there must necessarily be some societal mechanism to allow for the free flow of conflicting ideas and opinions. When one part of the polity gains control of that mechanism and then seeks to exclude contradictory ideas and deprecate those idea-holders we have a problem that challenges the very basis of our social contract.

For example, the Swifities would qualify as competent witnesses in any court in the civilized world because their testimony is what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears. Yet the Swifites testimony is automatically branded as useless and the witnesses themselves are branded as liars and operatives. The Swifiies don’t even get into the court of public opinion. Kitty Kelley writes a book based by her own admission on second and third hand hearsay (not admissible in any court) and she gets three days on national television.

If the President of the United States can’t get a fair shake from the likes of CBS, NBC, the Boston Globe, the LA Times, and the NYT how can any of us hope that the free flow of ideas will survive even a little more effective control? Thank God for the blogoshpere (which is rapidly turning Hayek into an epochal genius), but unless Rather and CBS go down hard enough to change behaviour we are losing this war.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:53 am 15. Catherine:

i think their manhood is at stake with regard to some of them

In case anyone’s interested, I just did a long post on this exact subject in the earlier thread mentioning John Ellis.

When I showed my then 9-year old the Botox photos of John Kerry on Drudge, I said, “It makes him look like a woman.”

My son said, “John Kerry can be the first woman president!”

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:55 am 16. Catherine:

the Swifities would qualify as competent witnesses in any court in the civilized world because their testimony is what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears. Yet the Swifites testimony is automatically branded as useless and the witnesses themselves are branded as liars and operatives. The Swifiies don’t even get into the court of public opinion. Kitty Kelley writes a book based by her own admission on second and third hand hearsay (not admissible in any court) and she gets three days on national television

This is going to have to change.

OTOH, WAPO has been terrific.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:56 am 17. Catherine:

Actually, that’s an aspect of the “blogosphere” we’re not mentioning explicitly, and that we should mention explicitly.

In this case the bloggers have contributed directly & materially (correct term) to the story by way of their knowledge of fonts & desktop publishing.

But under any circumstances bloggers contribute to a story by way of links that can direct attention to better journalism.

Before bloggers & the internet, my husband would not have read WAPO’s coverage of the Swifties, which made all the difference in the world to him.

Nor would he have read WAPO’s coverage of Rathergate.

The internet reduces the local monopolies held by the large newspapers.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:59 am 18. chuck:

Katherine,

Here is the part I was looking for.

was sitting on a bentwood chair at the corner entrance to the verandah,

where there was an opening in the creeper-grown trellis. In front of her on

a plain kitchen table lay a large book like a ledger, in which for no known

reason the woman wrote the names of the people entering the restaurant. She

stopped Koroviev and Behemoth.

‘Your membership cards?’ she said, staring in surprise at Koroviev’s

pince-nez, at Behemoth’s Primus and grazed elbow.

‘A thousand apologies, madam, but what membership cards? ‘ asked

Koroviev in astonishment.

‘Are you writers? ‘ asked the woman in return.

‘Indubitably,’ replied Koroviev with dignity.

‘Where are your membership cards? ‘ the woman repeated.

‘Dear lady . . .’ Koroviev began tenderly.

‘I’m not a dear lady,’ interrupted the woman.

‘Oh, what a shame,’ said Koroviev in a disappointed voice and went on

: ‘ Well, if you don’t want to be a dear lady, which would have been

delightful, you have every right not to be. But look here–if you wanted to

make sure that Dostoyevsky was a writer, would you really ask him for his

membership card? Why, you only have to take any five pages of one of his

novels and you won’t need a membership card to convince you that the man’s a

writer. I don’t suppose he ever had a membership card, anyway I What do you

think?’ said Koroviev, turning to Behemoth.

‘I’ll bet he never had one,’ replied the cat, putting the Primus on

the table and wiping the sweat from its brow with its paw.

ÔøΩ You’re not Dostoyevsky,’ said the woman to Koroviev.

ÔøΩ How do you know? ‘

‘Dostoyevsky’s dead,’ said the woman, though not very confidently.

‘I protest! ‘ exclaimed Behemoth warmly. ‘ Dostoyevsky is immortal!’

‘Your membership cards, please,’ said the woman.

‘This is really all rather funny! ‘ said Koroviev, refusing to give

up. ‘A writer isn’t a writer because he has a membership card but because he

writes. How do you know what bright ideas may not be swarming in my head? Or

in his head? ‘ And he pointed at Behemoth’s head. The cat removed its cap to

give the woman a better look at its head. ‘ Stand back, please,’ she said,

irritated.

Koroviev and Behemoth stood aside and made way for a writer in a grey

suit and a white summer shirt with the collar turned out over his jacket

collar, no tie and a newspaper under his arm. The writer nodded to the woman

and scribbled a flourish in the book as he passed through to the verandah.

‘We can’t,’ said Koroviev sadly,’ but he can have that mug of cold

beer which you and I, poor wanderers, were so longing for. We are in an

unhappy position and I see no way out.’

Behemoth only spread his paws bitterly and put his cap back on his

thick head of hair that much resembled cat’s fur.

At that moment a quiet but authoritative voice said to the woman :

‘Let them in, Sofia Pavlovna.’

The woman with the ledger looked up in astonishment. From behind the

trellis foliage loomed the pirate’s white shirt-front and wedge-shaped

beard. He greeted the two ruffians with a welcoming look and even went so

far as to beckon them on. Archibald Archibaldovich made his authority felt

in this restaurant and Sofia Pavlovna obediently asked Koroviev :

‘What is your name? ‘

‘Panayev,’ was the polite reply. The woman wrote down the name and

raised her questioning glance to Behemoth.

‘Skabichevsky,’ squeaked the cat, for some reason pointing to his

Primus. Sofia Pavlovna inscribed this name too and pushed the ledger forward

for the two visitors to sign. Koroviev wrote ‘ Skabichevsky’ opposite the

name ‘ Panayev’ and Behemoth wrote ‘ Panayev ‘ opposite ‘ Skabichevsky ‘.

Sep 15, 2004 - 10:59 am 19. Katherine:

Chuck,

Priceless, isnít it? How I love this book.

Sep 15, 2004 - 11:05 am 20. phil:

“You can have information anarchy. You have to look at who these people are. We have to put some scrutiny on the bloggers.”

“information anarchy”? I believe that’s called “freedom of the press.” Apparently O’Shea is not familiar with the concept. His is the stereotypical response of the technocrat whose authority and position is challenged.

Sep 15, 2004 - 11:19 am 21. chuck:

Katherine,

Wonderful, wonderful book. It is one of the few I reread periodically, and I am sure that I miss 95% of what is conveyed to a native speaker.

Sep 15, 2004 - 11:21 am 22. Rick Ballard:

Could it be that the “suits” have stepped in at CBS? Two and half hours of delay indicates something and I am hoping that the business side has now said “enough”. It’s still an hour and a half till the close of market so we may not hear anything ’til then.

Maybe there’s been a problem in prying Dan’s fingers off the door frame?

Sep 15, 2004 - 11:35 am 23. Katherine:

Chuck,

If you miss anything it is less due to translation and more to the subtle code that Bulghakov had to employ to stay alive. Of course, he was still too openly subversive for the regime and most of his works were banned. It seems that he survived only because Stalin took fancy to one of his plays (go figure).

Sep 15, 2004 - 11:42 am 24. chuck:

Katherine,

I’ve been told by russian speakers that the language is just exquisitely exact. Apparently when the book first got published in the 80’s students would use phrases in conversation, something like “Hasta la vista, baby” still surfaces now and then.

Sep 15, 2004 - 12:03 pm 25. chuck:

Oh, and Roger’s comment about Yevtushenko shoveling beluga reminded me of the sturgeon theme that seems to run through the book, among many others. Oh, and I was slightly acquainted one of Yevtushenko’s mistresses.

Sep 15, 2004 - 12:08 pm 26. Old Dad:

I saw Mr. O’Shea on one of the cable shout fests last night. He wasn’t happy. In fact, he looked as if he’d just eaten a huge steaming bowl of C–BS.

Sep 15, 2004 - 12:11 pm 27. Katherine:

Chuck, my Polish translation is from 1973, but I understand that after the wall came down the full text was finally published. I may have to hunt a post 1989 copy to compare.

Yes, I thought about the sturgeon, too, when I read Rogerís description of Yevtushenko shoveling belugaÖ

Sep 15, 2004 - 12:56 pm

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: