26 Comments

1. Jamie Irons:

My wife, who is a real Jew (I’m a mere convert*) is having exactly this (from my point of view) problem. She just can’t imagine herself pulling the lever (or touching the screen) for a (ick!) Republican.

Beslan moved her a little closer, she admited, to considering Bush. But I still doubt she’ll vote for GWB. (Anyway, I’ll never know, as for the purposes of domestic tranquility, she has decided never to tell me who she votes for.)

Jamie Irons

*BTW, I love the old Jewish joke about converts: They’re the worst kind…

Sep 29, 2004 - 1:48 pm 2. Samuel:

I laughed out loud at the “Never Again” as refering to gas lines. Because it is that absurd.

I have said Life & Security trump all, as my Gay brother says… “I want to live… we can fight anout marraige later!” The truth is watching the left dismiss Iraq as “the wrong war” and not even show any joy or happiness for the freedom of millions upon millions in Iraq, leaves me with a taste in my mouth I doubt I will ever overcome.

Whatever bad taste I had in my mouth from the right has been replaced by a vileness even worse from the left, it literally leaves me thinking, “Now I forgot, what was it… why did I hate Reagan?” I am that far removed from where I was. Unfortunately others aren’t. Hopefully there will be a delayed effect and support will grow after success is acheived more fully.

Roger teach that beautiful daughter of yours what this President has done, the risks he took, the good he has fought for, I know I am. The prejudices being fed by other family members to my children have been more then trumped by me, you can bet on that. It is with them I will say “Never Again” and say it with the meaning it was meant to be said with.

Sep 29, 2004 - 1:52 pm 3. David Thomson:

A ìGentlemanís Agreementî was perhaps the standard Republican view some fifty years ago. I have little doubt that a Jew would have felt far more welcomed in the Democratic party (outside of the deep south). But times have changed. It indeed makes sense for one to remain loyal to their political principles. However, this often does not justify standing steadfastly with a particular political party. They are not one and the same. Thereís only one question one should ask: what have you done for me lately? The heck with the distant past.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:04 pm 4. Promethea:

I’ve been trying for over a year to convince my LLL family and friends, mainly Jewish, to see that the Left is viciously against Israel (even the Presbyterians, for G-d’s sake!) and that Bush is a friend of the Jews and of Israel. These LLL Jews and others seem fixated on the idea that the “Christian right” is somehow anti-Jewish. This may be a legacy from some rightwing evangelist a few years ago.

These NYTimes-reading, but uninformed people cannot let themselves give Bush a fresh look, because he’s a Republican. If he were a Democrat, then they would vote for him, just like they voted for Jimmy Carter *spit.*

Here’s my simple but profound conclusion: The older Jews have become Reactionaries. It will take some time–maybe 10 or 20 years–for the old ones to die off. The younger ones won’t have the leftist baggage that the older ones have.

Here’s my wish: many old and infirm Jews probably sense that Kerry is an inadequate loser who would be a very poor President. Therefore, these old and infirm people (I know some) won’t drag themselves to the polls.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:14 pm 5. Paul:

Samuel, I can really relate to your sentiments! I have shifted my worldview 180 degrees in the past few years and trying to recall my former attitudes is like looking through a haze at some other person entirely.

I just had an email exchange with a colleague I haven’t seen since my conversion. He’s convinced that Iraq was a diversion from the fight against AQ, Bush’s domestic policies will erase the separation of church and state, the streets are soon to be flooded with assault weapons, abortion rights are doomed, Bushís presidency will go down in history as one of the worst ever, blah blah, etc.

He also thinks the two parties are the same when it comes to national security and the WOT.

What planet is this guy on!!??

Other than politics we are compatible people and could hang out together and enjoy each otherís company, but I doubt weíll be in touch again…

The great divide in this country is a direct result of the left’s historic control of the media and its use of it as an organ of propaganda, being confronted with the new media’s more comprehensive and balanced dissemination of information and it’s current ascendancy.

The more traction the new media gets, the more shrill and distorted the elite media becomes. Since most people select one or the other for their news source the gulf between the two groups world views keeps getting wider and wider.

These divisions aren’t going to be healed anytime soon.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:38 pm 6. Paul:

I forgot to mention my friend is Jewish, thus the connection to this thread.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:41 pm 7. RogerA:

As I recall Kerry has been pretty circumspect on Israeli policy–He almost slipped when addressing arab americans, but recovered by saying he was opposed to the route of the wall and not the wall itself–in a word: Kerresque.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:56 pm 8. Terrye:

The Democrats were not the party that freed the slaves, the Republicans were. At that time the Republicans were the reformer party and yet today blacks vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. That might be changing but my point is these kind of loyalties don’t last forever. It could be Jews will change also in time.

I love that whole Iraq is a diversion thing. As if Americans were stupid and could not walk and chew gum at the same time. The truth is Clinton spent more time worrying about Iraq than he did AlQaida. Iraq is a problem because of Saddam not Bush.

Sep 29, 2004 - 2:57 pm 9. Katherine:

Terrye,

I have been trying to understand the whole ìIraq is diversionî argument. As much as I can make it out ñ and may be completely wrong ñ instead of going to Iraq we should have had attacked ìterrorist bases and training camps wherever they areî ìwe should have not abandoned Afghanistanî ìwe should have concentrated on Pakistanî ìour true enemy is Saudi Arabiaî. And there is the perennial wail about Homeland Security and Patriot Act.

Does this kind of thinking mean that we should have attacked Saudi Arabia and/or Pakistan instead of Iraq? Would the same people who oppose going to Iraq support invading any of these countries? And how terrorist bases and training camps can be attacked without violating somebodyís sacred sovereignty? Unless of course we do it the Clintonís way and we all know how successful he was in rooting out Osama.

Regarding Afghanistan, Oxblog recently good reads on the subject, and it looks like situation in Afghanistan may be less dire than MSM leads us to believe (so what else is new) http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2004_09_19_oxblog_archive.html#109601319970239588

Of course, we all know that homeland security should be better, borders should be tighter and air travel security should concentrate on security instead of harassment. But, in order to achieve all this we not only need to spend money ñ the usual and sole solution to every problem thrown out by people who are interested in rhetoric rather than real resultsñ but we have to make unpleasant, politically unpopular decision such as tightening borders, getting serious about illegal aliens (which means, among other things, ability of border agents to turn them back), tighter visa scrutiny, and some sort of profiling. Recent event showed that is may also be unwise to release GITMO occupants too readily http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6097998/

And I have difficulties figuring out how homeland security will improve if we get rid of Patriot Act.

Maybe I am missing something, if so, please tell me what it is.

Taken together, I can only conclude that opponents of Iraqi war would not attack any country harboring terrorist, regardless of protestation, an all these arguments are simply a blind for their real goal: appeasement. These people are either entirely unserious about terrorist threat, or their lust for power blinds them so completely that they cannot see anything beyond politics. Or both. Or they have a death wish. Whatever it is, I am scared out of my senses to contemplate the possibility that our safety, our very lives can depend for next 4 years on people resolutely resisting to acknowledge reality.

One Peace In Our Times per 100 years should be enough for the humanity to bear.

Sep 29, 2004 - 3:40 pm 10. yadid:

Roger,

lost a moment gazing in the air when I read your punch line about the “Never Again” as refering to gas lines…such a strong and surrealistic verbal image…

Sep 29, 2004 - 4:18 pm 11. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

I worry that there is an analogy with many Jews in Germany during the 1930s. I’m talking about people who considered themselves first and foremost as Germans, and who loved their country for its history of culture and science. Many of them had fought for Germany in WWI. They just could not bring themselves to understand how much things have changed and that “Germany” of 1938 was not the “Germany” of 1914.

To attach one’s allegiance to a label, without looking at what is underneath, is very, very dangerous.

Sep 29, 2004 - 4:42 pm 12. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

Also, a very chilling story that I read somewhere (can’t locate). In a remote village in Russia, at the time of the German invasion during WWII, the local Jewish community looked forward with anticipation to the arrival of the German troops. They had been occupied during WWI, and remembered the German officers of that time as vastly superior to the brutish and anti-Semitic local officials.

Again..To attach one’s allegiance to a label, without looking at what is underneath, is very, very dangerous.

Sep 29, 2004 - 4:44 pm 13. marek:

The Jewish love/hate affair with ‘progressive’ philosophies is probably as old as judaism itself.

I believe that this ‘affliction’ grew worse with the strenghening of secularism among Jews. It looks like a replacement of the old time religion with the different flavors of ‘progressivism’ elevated to the status of a religion.

I do not know what’s the cure or what kind of abuse will be the wake up call and if there ever be one not too late.

Sep 29, 2004 - 4:56 pm 14. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

marek..but large swatchs of modern ‘progressivism’ are not truly secular…they are under the sway of mystical and even superstitious ideas: astrology, magical crystals, nature-worship of various kinds.

Sep 29, 2004 - 5:04 pm 15. Mr Weather:

Damn, Promethea, I read your first two paragraphs and have to wonder if we’re talking about the same people….. David, is that you? Are you finally coming out as a Republican to the fambly?

Seriously, I came out as a Republican to my LLL, NyTimes-scarfing Old-School Jewish family recently. On the plus side, they now know a single Republican who is not necessarily evil nor evangelical. On the negative side, I have no political allies at family gatherings and get slathered with enough mishegoss to wish I could have come out as gay instead.

Sep 29, 2004 - 5:04 pm 16. David Thomson:

ìIn a remote village in Russia, at the time of the German invasion during WWII, the local Jewish community looked forward with anticipation to the arrival of the German troops.î

This was also the case for many Jews living in Poland. The German soldiers who occupied parts of Poland during WWI were far more benevolent and fair than the bigoted Poles. Let us not forgot that Weimar Germany was not known to be hostile towards Jews. Adolph Hitlerís anti-Semitism was initially a turn off for much of the educated German elite.

Todayís American Jews may be comparable to the proverbial frog being boiled alive. Few have yet to pick up on the subtle attacks disguised as mere criticisms of the Ariel Sharon government. They rarely ask the required follow up questions.

Sep 29, 2004 - 5:08 pm 17. richard mcenroe:

I think a lot of Democratic Jews are Jewish in DNA only. We just had a young fellow come to work with us, nominally Jewish, with zero idea of or interest in his heritage, and an active resentment of his religious obligations, no interest in political discussion but a Kerry voter because “all his friends are…”

When the antisemitism hits him between the eyes he will have no idea why…

Sep 29, 2004 - 5:13 pm 18. marek:

photoncourier,

[i]‘astrology, magical crystals, nature-worship of various kinds’[/i]

I mean a little more serious ‘isms’ like socialism, communism, trans-nationalism, ‘cosmopolitism’, etc.

Sep 29, 2004 - 5:19 pm 19. Terrye:

Katherine:

I thought they might have meant we should have done what the Russians did and send a couple of hundred thousand troops to Afhganistan. The truth is we did Afghanistan by the book, if they don’t like the progress let them blame NATO and UN. They are both there.

As for neighboring countries I don’t think invading Paksitan would help our relations with the Muslim world, any more than taking control of Mecca in Saudia Arabia.

I just think the Dems are looking for something to bitch about. Now in his new ad Kerry is saying there are no weapons no ties to AlQaida and Iraq is a mess. They put Bush out on a limb and now they are trying to saw it off.

I have a challenge for any anti warrior out there:

Explain to me why it is that Clinton is not catching any of this for not turning Saddam loose? It seems the current stand of the Dems is that Saddam should still be in power and if there were not any weapons or programs or ties to terrorists why not turn him loose years ago? Why blame Bush for going after him now? What did Kerry and Kennedy and Byrd and all the rest of these guys who had been in Washington for decades do to bring this to a resolution years ago?

And do you think Saddam should be in power? Do you think we should give Iraq back to him and leave and let him do what he will to Allawi and all the other people of Iraq who trusted and believed us?

Sep 29, 2004 - 6:01 pm 20. jerry:

Jews will start voting like the rest of the population when the only people who count as being Jewish are those who find an affinity with bibilical Judaism. Unless the Democrats gain the White House before the GWOT is won, America will become the first country where people of Jewish ancestry will be able to shed their historical identity and pass on to being identified as secular faithless people. There will be far fewer Jews in this country but the Jewish faith will be stronger for shedding the dead wait of DNA.

The reason that Jews in WWI were well treated by the Germans, aside from the fact that the Germans were civilized at the time, was because official policy declared that Yiddish speaking people were ancestrally German. This is something for the secular Jewish left to consider.

Sep 29, 2004 - 6:16 pm 21. photoncourier.blogspot.com:

marek…”I mean a little more serious ‘isms’ like socialism, communism, trans-nationalism, ‘cosmopolitism’, etc”…although the pseudoreligions of today’s left may seem laughable (and we should all certainly enjoy laughing at them), i think there is also a very serious phenomenon at work here: a retreat from the values of the Enlightenment. The very habit of rational analysis and argument is being lost.

Sep 29, 2004 - 7:16 pm 22. RogerA:

Marek:

you said “Unfortunately, some more or less innocent Arabs will suffer too ….” At the risk of being labelled a racist I will tell you there are not many innocent Arabs. For all the sanctimonious crap about the religion of peace, the Arabs have not, by and large, condemned the pogroms against the Israelis. And I use pogroms in the sense of slaughter of innocents. The Sheiks of Al Azar have been silent; leading Islamic scholars have been silent; and as long as the leadership of the Islamic world remains silent, I tell you: there are no innocent Arabs–even the children are dressed in suicide bomber dress. It is a sick and degenerate culture.

Sep 29, 2004 - 7:51 pm 23. RogerA:

Damn–my rant is on the wrong thread! I am not liking typekey very much. Apologies to this thread and I will repost.

Sep 29, 2004 - 8:02 pm 24. Katherine:

ìAnd do you think Saddam should be in power? Do you think we should give Iraq back to him and leave and let him do what he will to Allawi and all the other people of Iraq who trusted and believed us?î

Terrye,

Thatís what frighten me so much, because listening to Kerry and Co I hear the answer to these questions and the answer is: Yes.

Kerry is like Ted Turner, who bragged that he could understand Fidel Castro because both he and Fidel were dictators. I have no doubt that it would be easier for Kerry to cut deals with Saddam. Now that Iraq is going to have elections, can you just imagine how complicated the matter will be? One will need to know about Kurds, Shia, Sunni, and God knows what other interests there; what a mess. Indeed, who would want to be bothered by the concerns and demands of the filthy little proles. The good and wise rulers would have decided what is best for them; now of course it is all spoiled. No wonder Kerry cannot stand Allawi.

I think what bothers me the most is that I see so many ordinary, otherwise kind, nice, good people being casually, thoughtlessly cruel, just like our elitist ìdictatorsî. At the same time these people assume moral superiority over us evil warmongers. I guess as long one does not hear, see, or smell or imagine the human suffering, the suffering does not really exist. Let the little kids go naked.

I know that we cannot save everybody, the planet is too screwed up and our resources limited. But shouldnít it be a moral, a good thing to help people if we have an opportunity to do so and it also happens to be in our long-term interest?

Sep 29, 2004 - 10:37 pm 25. ricpic:

Apparently feeling good about yourself – I’m compassionate, I’m noble – trumps every other consideration — including your very survival.

There’s no other explanation.

Sep 30, 2004 - 7:09 am 26. pothos:

See further discussion on this topic at the Charlie Rose message board.

http://boards.charlierose.com/board/topic.asp?ti=8353&pg=1

Oct 1, 2004 - 9:48 pm

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