100 Comments

1. chuck:

There is something seriously screwed up in the country when the writers are so out of line with the public. It is almost as if there are two countries, the academic/literary country and the rest of us. It is strange and disturbing.

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:37 pm 2. John Clayton:

I would assume that most people who are intelligent without being rigid in their worldview- that is, the creative, artistic, open minded in our society- would be more likely to vote Democratic than Republican. If political parties could be cateogorized as “anal” or “oral” (and neither is meant as a compliment), I think you can guess which party would merit which label. Of course, those are stereotypes, and there are exceptions. But most novelists, like painters, have the ability to look at an ordinary scene and see the depths and the complexities. They hear a conversation and understand the unstated subtexts. They can read body language.

Consequently, they are more likely to look at Kerry and Bush, weigh their respective strengths and flaws, and then realize that when it comes to competence, a keen analytical mind, and a modicum of integrity, this election is a no-brainer. In sum, they would need a lobotomy in order to see Bush as his supporters paint him. Kerry’s flaws, which his supporters readily acknowledge, they see without blinders. The hope is that in governing, as it now inevitably appears will occur, he will perform better than he did in campaigning.

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:39 pm 3. John Pearley Huffman:

Excepting Roger for the moment… I’m startled by how thought-free the novelists reasons for casting their votes seem to be. Lots of emotion and feelings of dread, but not much analysis of where we are in the world. Or much in the way of factually supported argument.

I at least expected more vivid writing. Oh well… I hadn’t heard of most of these writers anyhow. I read a lot more blogs than novels.

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:41 pm 4. chuck:

John Clayton pompously proclaimed:

In sum, they would need a lobotomy

Agree completely. When do we start?

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:44 pm 5. Yehudit:

Wow, that was a pretty nauseating read. Good thing I don’t read most of those snotty “I’m ashamed to be an American” types. I’ve always stuck to SF and mysteries, and a few classics here and there, rather than Contemp Lit. Every time I read one of the latest books everyone thinks is so wonderful, I am bored out of my skull. (Well, Bee Season was an exception.)

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:45 pm 6. Yehudit:

“Kerry’s flaws, which his supporters readily acknowledge, they see without blinders.”

Excuse me? None of those prissy elitists could see his flaws. And their charicatures of Bush were laughable. They live in a political echo-chamber. I know a lot of people like that; they have absolutely no curiousity about why someone might think differently from them, they can only react with scorn and incomprehension.

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:47 pm 7. richard mcenroe:

Roger ó Drop on by Baen,com and hit the John Ringo forum in the Bar. You’ll feel much better. You might be terrified, but you’ll feel much better.

Put it this way, Charlie(colorado), TMJUtah and I are kind of weak-kneed for that crowd…

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:49 pm 8. Terrye:

Roger:

Well there are some people I won’t be wasting any time and money reading. The snots.

John, the only thinkg that proves is that people who live in a world made of fictional characters, make a lot of money and are inordinately concerned with what European intellectual think are going to vote for Kerry. The Bush hatred they evidence is really a hatred and disdain for their fellow Americans who fail to think, act, talk and behave exactly they way they think they should. Democrats are becoming very narrow minded and dogmatic. They also seem to hate Bush a lot more than they hate the people who want to kill us.

Just think if these kind of people were allowed to run the country instead of their mouths the people of Afghanistan and Iraq would never have the right to vote.

Now when will they do a survey of athletes and Country music people? I bet their answers will be different.

Oct 11, 2004 - 8:52 pm 9. John Moore ( Useful Fools ):

John Clayton

That’s the biggest buncn of bull I have seen here in ages. First, it’s over-stereotyped. Second, I don’t see novelists as unusually keen or imaginative in most cases, although there is something magic there (I’ve wife (former novelist) write – I don’t think I could do it). Third, it presumes that people with those characteristics would be pro-Kerry.

Try another way of looking at it – why are almost all English professors pro Kerry? Most of them couldn’t write a novel if they had to Are they especially wise? In my observerations, quite the opposite. They are sheep.

There are several reason that novelists are for Kerry. One is that, not surprisingly, most publishing houses are very liberal and won’t publish books unless they exhibit a liberal theme. This is one reason that “The Hunt For Red October,” a very successful and ground-breaking novel, was published by The Naval Institute Press. Its break and butter for Regnery publishing, who specialize in conservative books (I don’t know if they do nonvels).

Same with reviewers – if you are a conservative novelist and write with a conservative theme – what do you think the book reviewers are going to say?

Same with the university humanities departments where some novelists learn certain basics of their trade.

Furthermore, the “artsy crowd” is in general left wing. You can hardly blame that on superior characteristics, especially with what passes for either art or artists these days.

As to Kerry’s flaws, readily acknowledged by his supporters: more BS. I won’t get into details, but that is totally laughable. He’s never done anything significant in his life other than betray his country in 1970-1972. His war record is damning (if you actually talk to the people who know), and his Senate record is dismal – no significant legislation with his name on it in all 20 years, rated the most liberal senator (not just liberal, but the most liberal). Continuous attacks on the people, institutions and equipment defending us, and meeting with our enemies (just 2 weeks into his first Senate term he was in Nicaragua, and while he was a Naval Reserve Officer and simultaneous war protester, he met at least twice with the Vietnamese communists but not with the other side, and his organization had a number of other contacts with them.

John Kerry is the flim flam man. Combat hero (where he wrote up his own citations), anti-war leader (where he slandered his country and all Vietnam Vets including myself with his calumnies), and leftist senator who advised us not to try to defeat communist.

Great guy.

I’m scared to death this damaged sociopathic loser might win.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:01 pm 10. John Clayton:

Here’s all you need to know about Kerry supporters versus Bush supporters: Kerry supporters want more people to vote in the 2004 election; Bush supporters want to suppress turnout. So who is the more “democratic” candidate (with the small “d”)?

And which party do you think would benefit more if the whole country, on Sunday night, October 31st, saw back to back showings of the anti-Kerry “documentary” (you know, the one the Sinclair network has mandated be shown on their stations) and Fahrenheit 9-11?

Anyone want to be honest here and admit that the Republican operatives didn’t try everything possible to convince movie theaters not to show Fahrenheit 9-11? That they didn’t try to convince people not to see the movie? (A foolish mistake- they probably added another $50 million to Michael Moore’s gross.) That Bush’s people didn’t try to forestall the 9-11 commission, then once it was created, resist allowing their top people (Rice, Bush, Cheney) to testify? Those who commented about how the MSM suppresses information, if you commend the RNC and Bush campaign for this, then you’re not being consistent.

Conclusion: Kerry wants more people to vote and wants more people to have access to more information. So who holds the moral high ground here?

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:06 pm 11. Barrett:

John,

You describe the enlightened as “people who are intelligent without being rigid in their worldview” and that “most novelists, like painters, have the ability to look at an ordinary scene and see the depths and the complexities”.

I guess these are presuppositions for why it is okay for Kerry, who is of course enlightened, to be an elitist who is entitled to double standards and take all sides of an issue and not be considered contradictory.

Kerry is a weak minded liberal, who has neither the brains nor the courage to take a position, articulate it and live by it.

As an example, the would be great alliance builder trashes our current allies drawing the ire of the Polish President. But there is no need to worry because the French, Germans and others will soon be at his feet as he implied in the second debate. It only took him a couple of days to admit that this was yet another detour to fantasy land.

By the way, I am not a rabid Bush fan not am I anxious to go to war. However, we have a better chance of being safer and fighting the terrorists over there and not here. (Listen to an independent like Gen. Tommy Franks – now a Bush supporter.) Now we learn that Kerry believes terrorism is a nuisance and that there is an acceptable level of terrorism. Tell that to my friend with four children who lost her husband on 9-11.

Please listen to what people say and take note most of all in what they do. You are right, this election is a “no-brainer”. Bush acted and has been consistent (although by no means perfect in execution – and don’t think it will be any different under Kerry). Kerry vacillates, appeases, contradicts, subverts, panders, placates and withholds. I have yet to hear a single, consistent and coherent policy position from Kerry except for socialized medicine this entire campaign.

It amazes me that smart people can so fool themselves and create all kinds of reasons to justify their position. How about a little bit of intellectual honesty? (By the way, that would be good from both parties.)

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:09 pm 12. Terrye:

John:

I am too. So far the folks that scream about Bush’s attacks on civil liberties have vandalized campaign offices, personal property and in general shown a complete lack of respect for anyone who does not share their views.

The Democrats voted for the Patriot Act, the No Child Left Behind Act, the Drug Discount Bill, the tax cuts, the Iraq war, the operations in Afghanistan. They voted against Kyoto. It is just that when they have to make a choice between the money laundering thieves at the UN and an American president who is a Republican from the southwest their regional snobbery shows and they decide to blame Bush. High gas prices? blame Bush. Bad weather? Blame Bush.

It is like a disease and if Kerry does win they will have to deal with the fact that the world is still what it is when Bush is gone. If these guys like it in Europe all that much better they can move there. Somehow we will muddle along without them. They can still market their books here. I never met an artist who would turn down a dollar.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:18 pm 13. chuck:

John Moore,

I thought once, twice, thrice, of seriously replying to John Clayton, but decided he wasn’t worth it based on past experience. But you have stated pretty much what I would have said. I would emphasize that the unanimity of opinion does not show independent thought, but rather people addicted to holding conventional ideas shared by their clique. In any group of active thinkers there is a great variety of opinion.

As to John, he simple parrots unexamined memes and puffs up his self esteem. Don’t trouble yourself.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:22 pm 14. Terrye:

The John I was referring to above John Moore, not to be confused with John Clayton.

When I said I am too, I meant I am afraid that Kerry will win as well.

And John Clayton, I am a life long Democrat voting for Bush and Michael Moore is one of the reasons. 57 factual errors in that hate fest film of his and the left loves it. People who hate America love it. But then Moore has turned hating America into a multi million dollar business. I guess when he says he doesn’t like millionaires he means millionaires other than himself.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:24 pm 15. richard mcenroe:

Terrye ó You can add that one of them threatened to shoot me at the march last Friday.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:25 pm 16. David [.net]:

His stories were crushing?did you know that there are giant spiders that creep up on sleeping soliders at night? That this is the sort of thing that causes nightmares, even more than random mortar fire?

The boy’s scared of bugs. He really shouldn’t project that on our soldiers.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:33 pm 17. Syl:

John Clayton

Your snobbery knows no bounds.

Artists like to be taken care of by others so they can be free to reach their inner selves and create. They feel the world owes them for their insights which, after all, make the world a better place. Many of them have never grown up emotionally because they’ve sheltered themselves and never had to.

I know too many of them and they don’t support Kerry, instead they hate Bush because he looks like a monkey.

Some of them are damn good artists, but damn pathetic people.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:33 pm 18. Katie:

I’m presenting part of a political play in my (NYU) playwriting class tomorrow, and I’m WELL aware that my politics are unlike the rest of the group. I’m just hoping they don’t eat me. Lonely are the East Village conservatives.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:33 pm 19. Foobarista:

If these auteurs are so deep-thinking and profound in their analysis, how many so many of them are voting for Kerry because of the following reasons:

1. They’re embarrassed when they go to Paris or Tuscany.

2. Bush = War, Kerry = Peace, Love, Fluffy Creatures, and UNESCO.

3. Bush Lied, People Died. It’s true! Would Michael Moore lie?

4. Bush is Stooooopid and talks twangy. Kerry is a Real Live Intellectual ™, just like me.

5. Bush wants to turn the Earth into Venus so we can all drive SUVs.

I could get this much “analysis” on DU – don’t need no highfalutin’ ah-teests…

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:36 pm 20. Terrye:

richard:

I thought only rabid right wingers believed in guns.

BTW, have you tried to keep people from voting? I know I haven’t. But then I have not been offering them $5 and a bottle of whiskey to register Democrat either.

My greatest fear is not that Kerry will win fair and square it is that people will vote for him just to shut up the likes of John Clayton and because they are afraid of the Bushhaters. Kind of like using the spoiled brat approach to politics. Vote the way I want you to or I will pitch a fit.

BTW, the Republicans are asking for people to let them know of any voter intimidation, maybe you should tell them about your experience.

Did you hurt him?

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:36 pm 21. Peter G.:

Further proof that one doesn’t go to a baker for car repairs. Of course it’s possible that the baker might know a thing or two about engines and carburetors, but what are the odds? And why ask one in the first place?

Some choice quotes:

“He’s probably not the Antichrist, but he comes as close as I’ve seen in my lifetime.” – Dan Chaon. The key words here are “probably not.”

Joyce Carol Oates says that “Like virtually everyone I know, I’m voting for Kerry.” It’s safe to say that we already knew that virtually everyone she knows is voting for Kerry.

Jonathan Franzen says of Kerry, “He’s the candidate whose defeat Osama Bin Laden (if he’s alive) is praying for.” Yeah, the terrorists fear Kerry. The mullahs are praying to Allah for his defeat. That’s how it is, if Franzen says so. He goes on: “Also, since he’s a Democrat, I trust him to exercise a modicum of fiscal sanity and to show a little compassion for the unlucky.” O.K, fair enough. But then he adds, “Also, his wife is hot hot hot. She’d be a first lady for the ages.” Uh huh. (Gold digger.)

Jane Smiley needs to be quoted in full: “I am voting for John Kerry. Would George Bush steal the election if he thought he could get away with it? The evidence is that he has (disenfranchising black voters in Florida in 2000) and wants to again (attempting the same trick already this year). That such a man, an amoral prevaricator and ruthless opportunist, actually has supporters in his bid to wreck American democracy appalls me. I think that the coming election will result in a constitutional crisis of unprecedented danger. I consider a vote for Bush a vote for tyranny.”

Uh oh. I’m having tyrannical thoughts.

Vendela Vida says she’s voting for “John Kerry: If he doesn’t win, I’ll have to be Canadian for the next four years.” Uh, Vendela Vida’s a pen name, right? I had to click on the link to find out who she was. Her book on the Amazon link shows a current rank of 87,182. If she moves to Canada, will anyone know?

Nicole Krauss writes, “I really think it’s not alarmist to say that if Bush is reelected to another four years, it may be the end of life as we know it. Certainly it will be the end of life for many species, including huge numbers of the species Homo sapiens.” – And what exactly does he think would be an alarmist thing to say?

And finally Lorrie Moore asks, “Are there really any novelists voting for Bush?” Oh please. Anyone who can write a novel is of a higher intellect than the rest of us, so the answer is of course not. Bakers and auto repairmen might vote for Bush though. Idiots.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:41 pm 22. lignaeus:

Did you notice how self centred most of the pro Kerry novelists were? It’s all about them and their precious feelings, typical of the juvenile types that inhabit what passes for the left these days.

Grow up guys!

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:45 pm 23. John Clayton:

CHUCK: “John Clayton pompously proclaimed:

In sum, they would need a lobotomy

Agree completely. When do we start?”

Chuck, I think one is your limit. You can’t go back for seconds.

JOHN MOORE: “I’m scared to death this damaged sociopathic loser might win.”

John, I think, at last count, about 48% of the country agrees with you. But those are harsh words for your President. Even though he failed at every business, was guilty of DUI’s, insider trading, failing to show up for Guard duty, and losing the popular vote in 2000 by over half a million, he did win two gubernatorial elections in Texas. Too bad he left it in a fiscal mess and the most polluted state (even beat out California!) in the country. Funny coincidence when you look at the current status of USA, don’t you think?

If Bush were really doing such a bang up job running the country, then why is it remotely possible that someone as uninspiring, pedantic, and unattractive as John Kerry is beating him? I await the Main Stream Media conspiracy theories or perjorative abjurations of democracy with baited breath.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:45 pm 24. Terrye:

Perhaps some Bush hater can explain to me what is gong to happen to them if Bush wins? Other than them not getting their way?

Are they going to be dragged to death camps in Idaho?

Are the Democrats going to vote for more legislation they will just have to turn around and disown? One would think half the Dems in DC were out of town visiting a sick Aunt when the Patriot Act was signed.

I have read some of the human rights reports on Saddam and his regime and how anyone can think Bush is a tyrant and defend Saddam’s regime is beyond me. It makes me think they are either unscrupulous liars or stupid.

I honestly don’t get it.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:52 pm 25. chuck:

John,

you seem to have trouble with the pronoun “they”, but really, it is not unexpected in a fellow who passed away last Saturday.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:52 pm 26. richard mcenroe:

Terrye ó “Perhaps some Bush hater can explain to me what is gong to happen to them if Bush wins? Other than them not getting their way? ” Nah, they’ll just go back to selling 1500 copies in hardcover and getting stroked by the editors of the Times Review of Books.

Oct 11, 2004 - 9:56 pm 27. richard mcenroe:

Terrye ó When I swung my flagpole* down off my shoulder he suddenly realized he didn’t really have a gun and ran away screaming slogans and threats over his shoulder (I’ve heard more political slogans from the backs of heads in this campaign than Mary Matalin after sex).

*well, the six-foot ash pole I call a flagpole**. Hey, it’s got a flag on it.

** Actually, it’s a buck and a quarter staff, but I’m not telling him that…

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:00 pm 28. Terrye:

John:

The answer to your question is that people such as yourself would rather hate Bush than face reality that is why. I would say the bizarre attachment to the 2000 election and the tiresome crap about how Bush stole it is indicative of the problem. And it has driven me from the party. What you have to worry about is how many Democrats like me are there?

BTW, a DUI is not half as bad as leaving your pregnant secretary dead in your car in a canal while you swin to safety like Kerry’s buddy Kennedy did. Nor is it as bad as giving false witness in front of the Senate and trashing your fellow soldiers knowing full well that many of them were in enemy hands at the time. I guess the same people that saved Kennedy saved Kerry. Your attacks on Bush are mean spirited and personal. This is why we were attacked John. People like you are too busy being partisan idiots to worry about the crazies screaming God is Great in Arabic as they lob off some poor man’s head off.

BTW Bush is 6 up in the WaPo poll, so don’t get so big for your britches.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:02 pm 29. Rick Ballard:

Terrye,

I can understand a bit of anxiety concerning the election if you rely upon the interpretation provided by the MSM but there is no historical basis for thinking that Kerry has a chance. This is the fourth time in the past 32 years that an eastern liberal has made the Dems and the MSM feel funny in their pants. McGovern was going to sweep Nixon from office based upon the gazillions of “new voters” that flocked to him, Mondale (OK a midwesterner but as liberal as they come) was going to unseat Reagan based upon the “youth vote” that through shear exuberance would carry him to victory, Dukakis was to “close the door” on the Reagan legacy based upon (what the hell was his theme, anyway?). And now Honest John Kerry proudly carries the liberal torch into well deserved obscurity. One can forgive the moveon moron youth for not having the perspective of time (or the intellectual candlepower necessary to read history) but those of us with decent memories having seen this movie before know how it ends. Blathering lackwits protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, Kerry has nothing on offer that a majority will buy. Forests have been leveled every four years to provide the pulp necessary for “closing the gap” stories. How many of them have ever proven true?

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:07 pm 30. Syl:

Heh. I want to share a couple of comments I enjoyed that I lifted from a blog and a Poser site:

One on Kerry from a friend at a Poser site:

Am I the only one that sees Kerrys meddling in the affairs between the United States and Vietnam, as a mere bottom of the food chain US Navy Lieutenant for gods sake, a sheer act of megalomania?

I mean an affair of State….involving two countries at war…you have the President involved….the State department….diplomats up the ying yang……and poor little ol Lt John Kerry, reporting for duty. that truly does take an ego the size of Texas.

And one on Gore from the famous anonymous:

The military will not like a Kerry presidency–just like they were majorly pissed when Gore threw their ballots out in Florida 2000.

What a moron Gore was–the only idiot who’s tried to stage a coup d’etat without the army!

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:08 pm 31. Morgan:

“I think one is your limit…”

Poor Johnny C. He doesn’t realize that chuck knocked him out in the first round, and now he’s thrashing wildly around the mat. Convulsions or something. Sad.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:09 pm 32. Eric Deamer:

God. I’d forgotten what complete assholes most of these people are. Of all the people voting for Kerry, only John Updike managed to explain himself with the slightest bit of sanity and class. I mean, I disagreed with everything he was saying but he didn’t sound like a lunatic or jerk.

The only hoity-toity contemporary novelist I like is Jeffrey Eugenides. Thank God they didn’t ask him. I don’t wanna know.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:15 pm 33. John Clayton:

Did someone mention reality?

Reality is more than 1,000 coffins coming back from Iraq and a President more interestd in attending million dollar fundraisers than funerals.

Reality is a surplus of over $160 billion in Clinton’s last year of the presidency turned into chronic deficits, now over $400 billion, in every year of Bush’s presidency, with a Bush campaign promise that maybe, by 2008, the deficit will only be $200 billion a year.

Reality is Bush blaming the deficit on lack of revenues from capital gains taxes at the same time he proposed legislation to eliminate all taxes on capital gains and on all estates valued over $1 million.

Reality is no American being afraid of terrorist attack on January 19, 2001, and fear of terrorism being a daily news story and one of the top issues in 2004.

Reality is living in a free country in 2000, and now, in 2004, feeling like one is in East Germany circa the Cold War when flying, attending a national political convention, or visiting the nation’s capital (and you can forget about visiting the nation’s capitol.)

Reality is the hundreds of thousands or millions killed or gassed by Saddam Hussein doing their dying in the 1980’s through 1991, when Reagan and G. H. W. Bush were president, with none of the current Republican chickenhawks uttering a peep- but several, including the current V.P. and Sec. of State, doing business with Iraq or wanting to with Iran, or visiting Saddam with a handshake and a smile to proclaim “friendship.”

And finally, reality is a commander in chief sitting on a stool in a Florida elementary school classroom, gazing vacuously into space for over 5 minutes after being told that “a second tower has been hit; the nation is under attack.”

So if you think Bush is a good president because he attacked, conquered, and now loses American lives daily occupying the Middle East country which had the LEAST amount of connections to terrorist attacks on the U.S. in general and 9-11 in particular, then you are not living in the real world. In the real world, when a country goes to war, it’s not a video game or a Tom Clancy novel. In the real world, innocent people inevitably die and are maimed. In the real world, preventing war and saving lives is worth more than starting and winning wars.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:25 pm 34. David [.net]:

I honestly thought the first “John Clayton” post was parody.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:30 pm 35. Rick Ballard:

David,

Unwittingly, it is.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:31 pm 36. chuck:

I honestly thought the first “John Clayton” post was parody.

It was. The real John is no longer with us. I don’t know who this “John” is, but he is making tasteless fun of the John we knew and loved.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:45 pm 37. Terrye:

John:

East Germany?? Are you kidding?? God damn it people died in East Germany, the worse that might happen to you is your feelings will get hurt. Christ. People in Afghanistan got the vote and not one Kerry supporter seems to give a shit. But yet you can bring out some hysterical crap about East Germany. If this was East Germany Michael Moore would not be planning his acceptance speech for his next Oscar he would be in Siberia. jeez…

One thousand coffins? My Dad was in WW2, do you really want to talk about coffins? If we are to keep this in context it should be remembered that the Clinton bombed Baghdad in 1998 and made regime change the national policy. I have mentioned this before because it does not seem to register. If there was a lie it was one Bush inherited. Kerry supported this war, he can run from now in the hopes it will get your vote, but he supported it. The fact that Democrats can completely divorce themselves from this reality does not inspire confidence.

And as for the defict, Democrats spend half their time bitching that Bush spends too much money and the other half complaining he does not spend enough. Which is it?

John the surplus was not real. It was based on a dot com boom that went bust and then there was a recession and a terrorist attack. Our state went form surplus to deficit overnight. And what is more Congress writes the checks and bitching about a deficit while touting a trillion dollar health care plan does not make sense.

This deficit needs to be dealt with but it is relatively manageable considering the size of the economy.

But cheer up, maybe there will be an attack, or Kerry’s admirers in the ME might keep up oil prices to hurt Bush or some other catastrophe might come along that the Democrats can use. It seems they love bad news. The badder the better.

Oct 11, 2004 - 10:57 pm 38. Terrye:

Rick:

I hope you are right, but when I read posts like those of John I wonder.

Oct 11, 2004 - 11:00 pm 39. Pat Curley:

Actually I suspect that the good news is that had they polled major novelists in 1972 and 1984, they would have found less support for the sitting President. By my count the vote was 25-4 for Kerry over Bush (with two apparent abstentions), but consider that in 2000, two of Bush’s supporters (Roger and Orson Scott Card) voted Gore, so the numbers represent a doubling of support for the President.

Oct 11, 2004 - 11:26 pm 40. Morgan:

Stil thrashing, huh?

“…1,000 coffins…”

I remember when there were going to be tens of thousands of coffins, back when Kerry was for the war.

“…surplus of over $160 billion…turned into chronic deficits”

The surplus was a result of gridlock in congress and a bubble economy. The bubble popped, tax revenues decreased, and fell even more because of tax cuts intended to jump-start the economy. I agree that the national debt cannot be allowed to chronically grow faster than GDP in percentage terms. At $400 billion, the rate of growth of the debt is about 5.7%. That’s too high for the long run. At $200 billion the debt would be shrinking relative to GDP. That’s acceptable.

“…eliminate all taxes on capital gains and on all estates valued over $1 million…”

Eliminate all taxes on all capital gains? Please link to this “proposed legislation”. Or did you mean to call it “uncorroborated rumor spread by Robert Reich”. The estate tax ought to be abolished.

“…no American being afraid of terrorist attack on January 19, 2001…”

Yes, that was before 9/11.

“…and fear of terrorism being a daily news story and one of the top issues in 2004…”

and that was after. Glad we had a president who could handle it.

“…living in a free country in 2000, and now, in 2004, feeling like one is in East Germany circa the Cold War…”

Were you in East Germany circa the cold war, or are you, maybe, overreacting.

“Reality is the hundreds of thousands or millions killed or gassed by Saddam Hussein doing their dying in the 1980’s through 1991…”

And continuing to die after that, I might add

“…doing business with Iraq or wanting to with Iran, or visiting Saddam with a handshake and a smile to proclaim “friendship.”…”

Which was a terrible thing. Maybe a necessary thing, given the circumstances, but terrible nonetheless.

“…gazing vacuously into space for over 5 minutes after being told that ‘a second tower has been hit; the nation is under attack.’”

I’ll trade those 5 minutes of gazing vacuously (as your deep insight into the minds of others allows you to label it) for the three years of strong, visionary leadership since.

“So if you think Bush is a good president because he attacked, conquered, and now loses American lives daily occupying the Middle East country which had the LEAST amount of connections to terrorist attacks on the U.S. in general and 9-11 in particular, then you are not living in the real world. In the real world, when a country goes to war, it’s not a video game or a Tom Clancy novel. In the real world, innocent people inevitably die and are maimed. In the real world, preventing war and saving lives is worth more than starting and winning wars.”

No John. In the real world there are hard decisions to be made, and sometimes that means fighting, and that means that people get hurt, and maimed, and killed. In the real world, civilians die in war, and they also die when there is no war – in terrorist attacks and prison camps and gas attacks and in torture chambers run by tyrants.

In the real world decisions are made based on what you know now, not what you will know in the future. In the real world, Saddam Hussein acted in ways that convinced everyone that he had WMDs; he supported terrorists; he hated America. In the real world it is sometimes necessary to eliminate threats instead of reacting to attacks. In the real world, Chamberlain was wrong and Churchill was right. Senators, presidents, you and I all live in this world.

I think Bush is a good president precisely because he perceives the world as it is, not as a place where talking solves every problem if it is only carried on long enough, not as a place where all will be well if we can just not fight.

Oct 11, 2004 - 11:26 pm 41. Sonetka:

Oh lord. Does being an unpublished novelist count? Cause I’m voting for Bush .

This whole business of “Artists look for depths which others don’t see” frustrates me. I have no problem with the idea – I do it a lot myself (perhaps a reason why so far editors refrain from wooing me). But training yourself to *observe* a lot doesn’t necessarily translate into figuring out how to *solve* anything. What you have to be able to do is observe, and then extrapolate accurately – something that not a lot of people can do, and I haven’t noticed that published novelists are any better at it than the rest of us.

I don’t doubt that most of these writers are (or were) good at what they do. But to think that because they can come up with a parallel someone else may not have thought of somehow makes them better in judging a political contest is a little shortsighted.

Oct 12, 2004 - 1:00 am 42. Sonetka:

One more comment; I wish they had asked Tom Wolfe whom he was voting for. I would love to see his answer (OK, so I might not necessarily like it, but his skewering of the pretentiously “Look, I’m Artistic” types is so wonderful regardless…)

Oct 12, 2004 - 1:04 am 43. Buddy Larsen:

Mercy, I redd the article and was contemplating the 12 gauges of Hemingway, until I rolled thru these posts and got my stuffing stuffed back in.

No damn wonder the novel is dying. Ya think maybe that Slate’s AlFranken Roundtable was, um, political?

I’d award the “No Bell (will ever ring for YOU) Piece Prize” to Johnathan Franzen:

“…Kerry, of course. He’s the candidate whose defeat Osama Bin Laden (if he’s alive) is praying for. I trust him not to pour additional gasoline on the fires that Bush has set overseas.”

My compliments, Mr. Franzen, you’ve reached a certain sort of perfection, there. Work good the up keep you’ll sure I’m! Effect creates cause; how very moderne!

And, see to your tools, sir, to whom does the “him” refer, OBL or JFK2? (hint, the rules of grammar are in your Kreative Ritin’ Book, and they ain’t that yer Grammer makes you wash up before dinner) And ‘wash up’, that’s a single-intendre, unless the foo shits.

(hey, Rick, that 10:31 to David, okay THAT was a home-run!)

Oct 12, 2004 - 1:31 am 44. Buddy Larsen:

(edit) Make that the “Algorequin Roundtable” (it’s much more apropoo).

Oct 12, 2004 - 1:51 am 45. PW:

As a lurker and only rare poster here, I’d just like to say that I’ve really been trying to read John Clayton’s posts despite the fact that they invariably sound like only so much claptrap that I can hear in less refined form from leftists all over the internet. But hey, one doesn’t want to fall into intellectual paralysis, so let’s listen to what the opposition has to say. But…

That absolutely moronic equivocation of East Germany really takes the cake. I happen to know a little about that country, having had the misfortune of being born there, and an apparently serious attempt to draw parallels between it and the U.S. is, frankly, indicative of a profound delusion. I’m sorry John, I really can’t state it in any less harsh terms. You’re suffering from a deep-seated mental problem if you honestly believe the current situation in the U.S. is anywhere close to life in a Communist dictatorship.

Needless to say, thanks for making clear I can skip any and all of your posts in the future. Your signal-to-noise ratio just doesn’t warrant paying any further attention to you.

Oct 12, 2004 - 2:46 am 46. Matthew Cromer:

My wife is a psychotherapist and an (as yet unpublished) writer, and I’m a landscape photographer (although not my day job).

She’s not voting for Kerry, and remarked to me last night about the insane hatred for Bush held by so many in her coterie of authors and mental health professionals. It boggles her mind at how wacked-out the anti-Bush crowd is.

I can state unequivocally that the photographer crowd is just about equally rabidly anti-Bush.

So that’s one photographer for Bush, one author who isn’t voting for Kerry or Bush at this point. But we’re in a *DISTINCT* minority, for sure.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:02 am 47. David Thomson:

ìI honestly thought the first “John Clayton” post was parody.î

There is a very good possibility that ìJohn Claytonî is being paid by a George Soros group. The radical Left realizes the importance of blogs. This person may very well be posting their rants on a number of assigned comment boards. The progeny of Antonio Gramsci understand the importance of converting the culture. They take it one step at a time. A little effort here, and a little effort there, and eventually they may dominate the society.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:14 am 48. mudmarine:

PW

Thanks very much for that post. The thing is, if we listened to folks like John Clayton and John Kerry East Germany would still be a communist dictatorship.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:17 am 49. Matthew Cromer:

Eric Deamer,

Don’t read this.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:17 am 50. Matthew Cromer:

I love reading the utter economic illiteracy which blames Bush for job losses caused by the bursting of the Clinton internet bubble.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:19 am 51. richard mcenroe:

“I would assume that most people who are intelligent without being rigid in their worldview- that is, the creative, artistic, open minded in our society-” You know, the people who are careful to have the exact same opinions as everyone else in their social and professional circles…

Matthew Cromer ó Hey, c’mon if Bush’s daddy had only given the whole country free broadband, the dot.com bubble would never have popped. The Bushitler Dynasty has obviously failed Digital-Americans…

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:41 am 52. vegetius:

I know this is tired but I can imagine every on of these auteurs uttering the same words as Pauline Kael the day after the election…..”I can’t understand it. Nobody I know voted for Nixon (Bush).”

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:42 am 53. julie:

Kerry supporters want more people to vote in the 2004 election; Bush supporters want to suppress turnout.

The majority of newly registered voters have declared themselves Republican. The dnc get out the vote has worked very well.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:44 am 54. Jamie Irons:

Two good friends are novelists; both are virulently anti-Bush. I love my friends, but their political views are not the result of some mysterious novelists’ deep insight into human character. Rather, these views are the result of a common human failing, laziness. They simply haven’t looked deeply into this matter. Their answers to my challenges are no more thoughtful than those of Mr. John Clayton. And these are very bright people.

I know many poets. All uniformly hate Bush. Same story.

Poets are prone to quote Yeats’ The Second Coming

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passsionate intensity…

and apply it to the present situation, and be quite certain that they find themselves among “the best” that Yeats was referring to. But that is a shallow reading of the poem, in my view, which points to an underlying and deep uncertainty in human endeavors, where it is rather difficult to be certain whether one finds himself among “the best” or “the worst.”

It takes a lot of intelligence to become, say, a particle physicist. I wouldn’t think a particle physicist who supports Bush is any better at her job, necessarily, than one who supports Kerry. In the case of the latter, though, I would wonder how much she had read about what the Islamic fascists are up to, and whether she knew any military people.

Jamie Irons

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:52 am 55. syn:

Wow, artist pontificating their fear of losing civil liberties?

How come these intellectual ‘authors of fiction’ cannot recognize that my, along with several million other American’s, civil rights have already been violated because certain groups such as the National Organization of Women have forced us against our will to accept an idea that we are required to pay for abortions without dissent.

By the way, NOW has also struck at the core of civil liberties by insisting that males have NO RIGHTS nor VOICE concerning abortion. Whenever I hear of a male’s opinion regarding supporting female’s right to abort I have to laugh since the males opinion on this topic has been made irrelevant by the Feminazis. As a female, I am ashamed that females have taken away the males right to have some say over what happens to their own DNA. This is one reason why I consider abortion to be a barbaric form of female empowerment, as well as, a complete violation of civil liberties.

Regarding one comment made about the Republican Party as bullies, I suggest that author examine the AFL-CIO rampant attacks at various Bush/Cheney campain headquarters around the country.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:52 am 56. Buddy Larsen:

How utterly apt, “The Second Coming”. I hadn’t read it in years, but how perfect for this day. Let me expand Iron’s post to lines 3 thru 8:

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all convictions, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:09 am 57. Lola:

Julie

The majority of newly registered voters have declared themselves Republican. The dnc get out the vote has worked very well.

Where did you get this information? I’ve been wondering about this, and I know that the Republican Party quietly started their registration drive early in the election season.

I forsee a new wave of registration after the election, as several Democrats change their party affiliation (who wants to be in the same party as Michael Moore?).

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:13 am 58. Blue State Conservative:

>The only thinkg that proves is that people who live in a world made of fictional characters, make a lot of money and are inordinately concerned with what European intellectual think are going to vote for Kerry.

This may sound wierd, but as a soccer fan, I have noticed that there are a lot of Americans who are very insecure at being American and desire and need the affirmation of Europeans to somehow prove their self-worth. As a soccer fan, I see other American soccer fans who look down on our (admittly second rate) league because it is not European. Others seem to demand the European fans recognize how great our league is. Me, I just do not care all that much what they think and just watch the games.

The same goes with culture and politics. There is a large group here in America who seems to need affirmation by European intellectuals. I do not know if this is a function of the mass culture aspect of American culture (that is, American culture is a common person’s culture, not an elite culture) or something else.

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:19 am 59. jerry:

I am late to the novelist discussion. It does not surprise me that the majority of modern novelists are left wingers living in an illusory world. Like many people in the modern arts and entertainment world novelists often confuse their ability to create a favorable/utopian outcome in the worlds they create with the way the real world works. It is part and parcel to the triumph of deconstructionism/post modernism that rules intellectuals today. Hopefully the passing of Jacque Derridia will bring this movement to its well-deserved inglorious end. [The great triumvirate of post-modernism has passed on. De Man the Nazi, Foucault the degenerate, and Derridia the nonsensical]

More than a few observers of the literary scene have remarked at the sterility of modern fiction. Writing has become just another academic discipline whose practitioners know little outside the confines of insular communities. They know little of what goes on with real people and it is reflected not only in their outlook but in their characterizations as well. Few modern writers are capable of understanding the rhythm of life in the same way as a Steinbeck, Hemmingway or Dos Passos. I must say that I am slightly disappointed with Joyce Carol Oates. I have always liked her works because they have often been about real people rather than abstractions. I wonder how Saul Bellow is voting. As I recall, he was effectively black listed by the literary establishment because of his support for the Vietnam War. He is probably the only American writer to win a Nobel Prize before a Pulitzer. My understanding was that the Pulitzer committee was so embarrassed that they never honored him that they gave him the prize ex post of the award.

To John Clayton:

I haven’t heard the sobriquet “chickenhawk” for quite a while. I have never gotten an answer when I ask about my status. You see, I joined the Navy to avoid going to Vietnam. I served aboard submarines and my only view of Vietnam was through a periscope. Given that Bush’s ANG service put him at about the same risk as the average tour in Vietnam (2% death rate versus 1.5-2.0% death rate for fighter pilots not flying in combat) was far more dangerous then mine do I get chickenhawk status?

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:30 am 60. Terrye:

When I read the remarks of writers like this I think how out of touch they are with most people. They talk about the poor and the disadvantaged but the only poor they know seem to be the people cleaning up after them or raising their children for them. They talk about civil liberties and yet they are free to say what they want about Bush while Saddam had prisons for children. This is why the Democrats are beginning to lose influence with the poor, their base. The poor have been lied to by rich men like John Kerry for too many years.

This elite is as predictable and uniform in thought as graduates of a reeducation camp. Their complete lack of individuality and originality is spooky. Artists and writers are supposed to speak truth to power, but in fact they have become rich and famous themselves and live in a sheltered world has far removed from ordinary Americans as European royalty was from the peasants they ruled. It is an existence of perpetual revolution in which the leaders become the corrupt and decadent class they were sworn to displace.

With the exception of Roger. Somehow it does not seem that rarified atmosphere got to him.

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:37 am 61. Jamie Irons:

Roger

Your thread title Lonely Are the Brave refers to the 1962 Kirk Douglas movie of that title, of course, which as you know was based on Edward Abbey’s 1958 novel, The Brave Cowboy. Douglas loved the book, bought the movie rights from Abbey, and Dalton Trumbo wrote the screenplay, again as you probably know. Douglas always said this was his favorite among the many movies he’d made.

(I have a little six-degrees-of-separation story here, FWIW (very little): my good friend Wally Mulligan, an internist with whom I worked on the Navajo Reservation, was buddies with the late Ed Abbey. When, in the 1970’s, I wrote Abbey an enthusiastic fan letter, he kindly wrote back. He seemed to be a very nice guy.)

Anyway, I wonder which side of the fence Abbey would be on today. As a fervent environmentalist, he would of course be inclined to hate Bush. But I wonder if his having served in the Army in Italy (following WW II), and his tough-mindedness, might have weighed in the other direction.

Jamie Irons

A trivia question: which two subsequently famous actors had bit parts in Lonely Are the Brave?

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:43 am 62. jerry:

Terye:

Who said it was the duty of artists to speak “truth to power?” The purpose of art and literature is to create art and literature. This truth to power BS comes from the corruption of the arts by De Man the Nazi and others of his ilk.

Blue State:

The reason that many soccer fans bad mouth the American game is because most American soccer fans like the game because it is the antithesis of America. Baseball and Football are America. Soccer is the choice of Euroweenies.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:02 am 63. Annalucia:

Here’s another unpublished novelist voting for Bush.

BTW, no mention of Mark Helprin in the article. I wonder if they spoke to him? Or took care not to speak to him because they knew what the answer would be? Especially since the guy can write rings around most of the rest of them.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:13 am 64. Rick Ballard:

Lola,

There is no reliable data that I am aware of that gives accurate party splits with regard to new registrations. Typically a young registrant will declare as an independent rather than declare for a party. The new registrant game is rather phony at any rate because the youngest cohort does not vote at anywhere near the rate of older cohorts.

A more telling statistic is that which describes the party affiliation of those who have shuffled off this mortal coil since the last presidential election. They were consistent voters (above 75% participation, there were about 14 million of them and the Dems departing outnumbered the Reps by about 1.7 million. Those numbers are verifiable. I am figuring total turnout at between 106 and 110 million so the mortality statistic is going to cost the Dems a little over 1%. Unless, of course, they continue to vote.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:13 am 65. Terrye:

jerry:

I don’t think artists really do speak truth to power, my point is they keep telling themslves they do. That makes them feel good about themselves.

I always loved to read, but modern day fiction is just not the same. Except for the good old fashioned mystery which is supposed to be entertaining and not enlightening.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:30 am 66. Roberts:

Many above have taken Clayton’s myths apart but among the most amusing of the Democrat’s favorite myths is to blame George Bush for the changed economic status of the country.

This is part and parcel of the dishonesty of Democrats these recent election cycles. The country was fully committed to recession months before George Bush was inaugurated. Given that, no budget surplus was going to survive. To accuse George Bush of putting the federal budget into deficit is just a flat out lie.

And there is the second amusing reality in contrast to Clayton’s myths. He gives us rehashed lies about the Republicans suppressing votes but doesn’t deal with the fact that the Democrats have been running an extraordinary dishonest campaign – one whose basic themes are outright lies. AWOL, the draft, the lies of Michael Moore, forged documents being published by a lapdog press, Kerry’s continuous life of dishonesty.

Given the actual unpopularity of what John Kerry has always stood for, the reality is that if the MSM were truly objective, Kerry would be polling no more than 40% today.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:44 am 67. chuck:

Terrye,

I recall reading somewhere an article where a book reviewer read the best sellers from, when, 1944 or something. The only book he still found interesting was a potboiler romance. The other books had dated badly.

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:02 am 68. kellymo:

Much madness is divinest sense

To a discerning eye;

Much sense the starkest madness.

íTis the majority

In this, as all, prevails.

Assent, and you are sane;

Demur,ó youíre straightway dangerous,

And handled with a chain.

–Emily Dickinson

So I wonder how she would vote?

The Slate article isn’t surprising in the least. If you consider the kind of fiction most of them write, logic isn’t a necessary tool for them. Evoking emotion is their primary skillset. However, for Roger’s genre, his novels must work out logically – otherwise, we mystery readers wouldn’t bother reading them.

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:29 am 69. Buddy Larsen:

Bill Bixby (My Favorite Martian, the Incredible Hulk)was one the bit part players, born the same day as my mom. Being a stockman, the opening scenes of the movie always just slayed me, Douglas coming up on barbed wire fence while trying to ride free range, and simply cutting the fence with wire-cutters and riding on through. All very ‘up-the’man’, but, everybody likes cheap beef, and the rancher’s pissed off kids/hands were gonna have as a result many hours of round-up, maybe loss, and the bitch it is retightening cut barb-wire that’s already stapled to posts. If ya don’t make it hum, the animals scratch against it and break it. unless you use ‘Gaucho’ wire, with barbs so long and sharp they cut skin. Anyway, there’s another side to Douglas’ opening scene, there.

Wish I’d checked that novel title, I’d thought it was eponymous with the movie, and I disgorged my same trivia stream over on Belmont, and got Abbey’s title wrong. Thanks for the heads-up, Jamie.

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:35 am 70. Blue State Conservative:

Jerry –

As someone who is a soccer fan, I do not understand how my choice of sport makes me a “Eurowinnie”.

In any event, my comment was this — it seems to me that there is a segment of the US population that is very uncomfortable being American. They desire and crave vindication from Europeans. And what is most distressing is that in my experience, this segment is among the most intelligent and creative part of our population.

My theory on this is that America is the triumph of popular culture and elevates the common person above the haughty. Our culture is vulgar, in the Latin sense (meaning common). Intellectuals here are just smart guys whose books we read — they do not have the preceived exhaluted status they have in Europe.

For these folks, it seems, they derive their self worth by proving to a European that they are not NASCAR watching beer drinking rednecks. And only when they receive such affirmation, do they feel happy.

I see it with some of my wife’s family (who at least have the excuse thatthe last generation was actually born in Germany). But you see it with American celebrities — ironic since the usually Euo-elite complaints about “decedant American culture” stem from the celebrities’ movies.

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:48 am 71. flenser:

Re; John Clayton

“I would assume that most people who are intelligent without being rigid in their worldview- that is, the creative, artistic, open minded in our society- would be more likely to vote Democratic than Republican.”

This belief seems to form a very important part of the liberal worldview. I know and work with a lot of quite left-wing types here in Manhattan. They work in a wide variety of occupations; software programming, waiters, marketing, project planning, lawyers, you name it. Virtually all of them do not define themselves by their work, as programmers for example, but as “artists” of different sorts. In their imaginary lives they are really musicians, writers, painters, sculptors, photographers, and so on. This idea has only a passing acquaintance with reality, since practically none of them will ever amount to anything in their artistic endeavors. This need to see themselves as better then everyone else, morally and intellectually, is the true marker of the modern liberal. Which is why Tom Sowell sarcastically refers to them as “The Anointed”.

It’s ironic that they, (like John Clayton, who obviously views himself as one who is “creative, artistic, open minded”,) exhibit such lemming like group-think and attack anyone who deviates at all from their ideology. All that John can manage here, for all his alleged free-thinking creativity, is to repeat by rote whatever talking points he gleaned from Tapped, The Nation, or DailyKos.

What about it, John? Can you take time out from telling everyone how brilliant you are to attempt to frame a coherent argument?

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:49 am 72. jerry:

Blue State:

I was not saying that all soccer fans are Euroweenies but that American “Euroweenies” are soccer fans becasue the Europeans are.

Oct 12, 2004 - 9:56 am 73. jerry:

flenser:

To give concrete example to this tendency of the conceit shown by the contempory arts community I give the following example.

In the old Hollywood nobody regardless of political views would have confused Gregory Peck who played Brig Gen Frank Savage with Brig Gen James Stewart when it came to discussion the merits of military action. In today’s arts world the fact Peck played a bomb group leaders gives him equal status with Stewart who actually led a bomb group in combat.

Oct 12, 2004 - 10:04 am 74. urthshu:

Roger-

Among Novelists, Bush supporters are absolutely a rare breed. I’ve run across the same thing among the NaNo’s as well- and they’re just hobbyists! Completely unhinged.

Oct 12, 2004 - 10:08 am 75. spongeworthy:

I think it would take serious stones for a Bush-voting novelist to admit it in Slate’s little poll. That could account for the one-sided results.

Kerry voters seem to need a lot of bucking-up from their friends, don’t you think? It’s almost like knowing the words to a popular song–you sing it and everyone knows how cool you are.

Oct 12, 2004 - 10:15 am 76. Roy Lofquist:

Fortunately, I only recognize the names 2 or 3 of these authors – the ones who are voting for Bush.

Oct 12, 2004 - 10:29 am 77. Lola:

Remember my questions about who are those registering to vote?

Well, here’s what I found out from Kerry Spot over at National Review:

Meanwhile, Jay Cost is doing serious number-crunching. He concludes, looking at voter registration numbers in Minnesota, that Bush, the state GOP, and right-of-center 527s have done a better job of reaching their voters than Team Kerry and his 527s so far.

Cost also observes that Kerry has been joined on the campaign trail by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who he accurately describes as, “kryptonite to the swing voters of this nation.”

And here’s his blog http://jaycost.blogspot.com/2004/10/if-polls-are-no-goodwhat-do-we-do.html

The article about Kerry losing support amongst blacks is really interesting. Jackson and Sharpton sure put the poison into the Koolaid punch for me, that’s for sure.

Oct 12, 2004 - 11:02 am 78. chuck:

urthshu,

Let’s face it, if you support Bush you’re just too conventional, too crass, too insensitive, to write novels. Where’s the angst? Where’s the suffering? How could you ever write in the first person singular like a real artist?

Oct 12, 2004 - 11:12 am 79. julie:

LOLA:

I heard it yesterday on the Michael Medved radio program. He said where party affiliation is recorded, in all but two states (Iowa and NH), the majority elected Republican.

Oct 12, 2004 - 11:26 am 80. Brian:

So who’s Thomas Mallon and where’s he been all my life:

I’ll be voting for President Bush. His response to the 9/11 attacks has been both strong and measured, and he has extended a once-unimaginable degree of freedom (however tentative) to Afghanistan and Iraq. I am unimpressed by the frantic vilification that has come his way from even mainstream elements of the Democratic Party. The rhetorical assault is reminiscent of—though it far exceeds—the overheated opposition to Ronald Reagan’s re-election in 1984. Back then the intellectual establishment told us how repression and apocalypse would be just around the corner if the American “cowboy” were kept in the White House for another four years. Well (as Reagan might say, his head cocked to one side), I remember a rather different result from RR’s second term. And I’m hopeful about another four years under George W. Bush.

Not bad, not bad at all.

Oct 12, 2004 - 11:37 am 81. Buddy Larsen:

Lola, the Sicilian Mafia is but one form of domestic organized crime. The other forms like to publicize the Mafia, it misdirects very efficiently.

Oct 12, 2004 - 11:37 am 82. Silicon valley Jim:

Their comments go a long way toward explaining why there are no more Hemingways, Fitzgeralds, or even Algrens or Amises.

Oct 12, 2004 - 12:01 pm 83. Knucklehead:

I guess Kedwards is moving hard to get the evangelical vote by promising miraculous healing of the crippled if they are elected.

Drudge is quoting Kerry as saying, “When John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk. Get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.”

The Kerry Spot has more.

What was John Clayton saying about who would need a labotomy to vote for whom?

Oct 12, 2004 - 12:08 pm 84. Buddy Larsen:

Lola, hold Kerry and Tony Soprano in your mind, and look into “The Big Dig”.

The famous ideological struggle within the Democratic party is all at lower, useful-idiot levels. The big fight is a palace struggle between two organizations that meet every definition of organized crime, except instead of being protected by politicians, they ARE politicians.

The reason Jesse Jackson makes such a show of looking sick at recent Kerry rallies, is he is a member of the other gang, the Clinton Gang, out on loan to the Irish Mafia until they get common enemy Bush severly weakened.

Ask yourself how quickly Tony Soprano could make himself all legal if he had control of part of the federal tax take, with the concomitant political power to get his people voted into enough offices to finally make himself de-facto above the law.

I’m a dairyman, until I got into my mid-fifties I milked and shoveled manure every hour I wasn’t sweating over the bills. I’m no country-club Republican. but i happen to read a lot, and love history, and have long noted that nations such as this one follow the Roman model; they either glorify personal character, or they rot/collapse/mutate, and always from the top down.

When I watched the Clinton White House operate (introducing oral sex to the nation’s children was but one of the minor spiritual crimes), I got scared. But, Gore lost, and we got a reprieve. but now we’re again at push/shove time.

Ever wonder why Demo leadership spokesmouths never acknowledge the investigative results that prove Florida wasn’t stolen? Why they zone out when it’s re-re-re-explained? It’s because they need “Florida” as a cause for a turnabout, which is in the planning stage as we speak, and which is known historically as a coup d’etat.

I know, I’m using inflammatory language. Please discount whatever seems to be a reasonable percentage of all that I’ve just said.

Oct 12, 2004 - 12:21 pm 85. OldManRick:

While what novelists think can be somewhat interesting, depending how far off the deep end they are, the question I would ask is, “What do historians think?” Unlike the novelists, these guys look into the past for clues about the present. These guys try to identify what policies and approaches might work.

While novelists “have the ability to look at an ordinary scene and see the depths and the complexities”, the historians have the experience and understanding to know when the “complexies” they see are just fluff. They have knowledge of what has worked before and what has failed. This is especially true of the military historians. My best reads on the WOT are John Keegan and Victor David Hanson. Who do you think they would support?

I suspect that one of the reasons Roger is on the “wrong side” of his peer group is simply that he is wider read than they.

BTW, as an engineer I have to take issue with “most novelists, like painters, have the ability to look at an ordinary scene and see the depths and the complexities”. I challenge any of these novelists in the Slate article to “see the depths and complexies” understood by Galeilo, Newton, Kepler, Laplace, Fourier, Einstein, and many others of their trade. Others have this ability, it just doesn’t come out in prose. It also has to conform to the facts on hand.

Oct 12, 2004 - 12:29 pm 86. mshyde:

I honestly thought the first “John Clayton” post was parody.

No David. The one above this post is the parody.

The fact he was desperate enough to bring up ‘Bush vacously staring off into space for 5 minutes’ tells it all. Kerry quite openly stated that he and his officemates sat for 40 MINUTES unable to think, caused great belly laughs from me.

Oct 12, 2004 - 2:05 pm 87. mshyde:

There is one bit of victory for us Bush voters, even if Kerry is elected by hook or crook. Whatever the reality is, no matter how hard he wishes it not so will not abate the tide that will roll up on HIS watch.

Then Kerry can blather 24/7 for 4 years, the voters of this country will learn a hard and fast lesson. Jacking of the jaws will not alleviate the pain from an attack on a weak, ineffectual and effimate presidency. His newly capped teeth, smooth waxed botoxed facial muscles and his newly tailored thousands of dollars suits will not secure the safety of this country.

If posters as John Clayton want to wantonly post such empty rhetoric that those as Usama want Bush re-elected is truly insanity. Usama, et al wait with bated breath to see their man Kerry elected. For they know that all he will do is talk, talk, talk, have a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting to have a counsel to have panel to have board to issue a sanction.

That is when it will not be funny. Blessedly we will still have the option at that time of impeachment.

Oct 12, 2004 - 2:43 pm 88. mshyde:

There is one bit of victory for us Bush voters, even if Kerry is elected by hook or crook. Whatever the reality is, no matter how hard he wishes it not so will not abate the tide that will roll up on HIS watch.

Then Kerry can blather 24/7 for 4 years, the voters of this country will learn a hard and fast lesson. Jacking of the jaws will not alleviate the pain from an attack on a weak, ineffectual and effimate presidency. His newly capped teeth, smooth waxed botoxed facial muscles and his newly tailored thousands of dollars suits will not secure the safety of this country.

If posters as John Clayton want to wantonly post such empty rhetoric that those as Usama want Bush re-elected is truly insanity. Usama, et al wait with bated breath to see their man Kerry elected. For they know that all he will do is talk, talk, talk, have a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting to have a counsel to have panel to have board to issue a sanction.

That is when it will not be funny. Blessedly we will still have the option at that time of impeachment.

Oct 12, 2004 - 2:50 pm 89. John Clayton:

“What about it, John? Can you take time out from telling everyone how brilliant you are to attempt to frame a coherent argument?” Posted by: flenser

Monsieur Flenser: I am still waiting for Mr. Soros’ paycheck to clear and for today’s marching orders from the DNC. No original thoughts or coherent arguments here. When I’m not being paid by nefarious left wing billionaires, my personal opinion is that Bush is really a great guy and a great orator whose mellifluous voice and stirring speeches- logical, precise, and grammatically perfect- are the stuff of legend, the Iraq war was the best thing that could have happened to America since I don’t personally know any of those dead guys or the ones who came back in pieces, the WMD’s are there but extremely well hidden and should turn up by 2008, the economy is on the rebound, jobs are now flowing back here from India, Singapore, and Bangladesh, Republican deficits don’t matter, arsenic and mercury in the environment doesn’t concern me, and only the swarthy guys are getting stopped at airports or stuck on no-fly lists, and a WASP like me will never have to worry about mistreatment from this Administration- they’re for more Jesus in our government and so am I. Plus, every time I go hunting quail with Dick Cheney, he’s so warm and fuzzy I just want to give him a big hug.

Oct 12, 2004 - 3:36 pm 90. Blue State Conservative:

I really do not think it matters who is president. They will hate us no matter what.

They hated us when Clinton was president. 9/11 was planned when Clinton was president.

They hate us now.

They will hate us if Kerry is elected.

Ralph Nader could be elected and they would still hate us.

Oct 12, 2004 - 3:53 pm 91. Portia:

I would like to point out that this is not necessarily the opinion of every novelist, every aspiring novelist or even every good writer. That it is the opinion of so many bestsellers is neither surprising nor shocking. Let’s just say that — with Baen as a notable exception — most editors and publishers favor work of a certain stripe. They’re more likely to promote what they favor and those authors are more likely to hit bestseller if they have a modicum of talent. While even talented people who challenge the wordview are “buried”. I’ve seen this happen again and again.

I’d also like to point out that people are reading less and less fiction. The LLL say it’s because americans are stooooopid. I think it’s because the publishing establishment is not working for us.

Oct 12, 2004 - 4:54 pm 92. ForNow:

Writers & artists good & bad tend to be herd animals.

They often go by the common feeling of the milieu to which they aspire. They often go to extremes. The milieu used to be more diverse, thatís all. In the USA, almost all the writers & poets are left-wingers. The artist can be evil, & evil-minded. And be an artist. Amiri Baraka, who wrote plenty of artistically fine work in the past (The Dead Lecturer, Tales, The System of Danteís Inferno, etc.), is a Stalinist black racist hatemonger unrivalled. Ezra Pound was a naif with a vicious intellect, an anti-Semitic fascist whose friends & connections saved him from execution for treason (broadcasting for the fascists during WWII) by getting him permanently committed to a lunatic asylum. He remained friends with the Jewish Leninist poet Louis Zukofsky. Jean Genet advocated evil as being beautiful & wrote to make the reader feel it, wrote of an airplaneís being intentionally crashed into suburban home as a beautiful event, & Sartre called him a saint. Conceivably, without his muse of evil, Genet would never have been such a good writer. Anyway, sociopathy & misanthropy have been very ìin.î

Contrary to recurrent notions, art is about neither the unique nor the universal. Itís about universes & about kinds & qualities of things. An artist gets caught up in his favored universe(s) of discourse, his favored modalities & gamuts, & the kinds of feelings which he develops & masters there. Universes & gamuts & musical keys. Kinds & qualities of feeling. Herd animals. The artist often understands about as much as he needs in order to understand the effects in which people feel certain ways, sometimes subtle ways. Itís not anything like a scientific critical effort — an effort to know on what basis you know something rather than to understand in what effect you feel something. The result is artistically cultivated but otherwise often mis-educated passion. Even fascist & money-crank Ezra Pound said itóall the ìgreat ideasî of the great writers & poets would fit on the back of a postage stamp. Great ideas are not that for which one reads them. Iíve never read a piece of fiction by Roger L. Simon. I visit here sometimes because he does have interesting ideas & intelligent commentary.

Itís probably no coincidence that the sanest-sounding Kerry-backer among Slateís polled novelists is John Updike, one of the USAís most overrated novelists, Mr. Glitterature & NYT Book Review darling with his sophomoric anthropomorphismsóìthe faucet dripped rusty tearsîó& his cluttery cleverness & elevator music for intellectuals, serving a home-decorative function not so unlike that of the NY Times itself.

Oct 12, 2004 - 6:19 pm 93. richard mcenroe:

OldManRick ó When it comes to what writers and artists know about the real world, I’ve met more engineers who could discuss Joyce and Proust than I have New York writers who could change a fuse…

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:16 pm 94. The Sanity Inspector:

Blue State Conservative:

Yes, if you look up UBL’s declaration of war on America from the mid-90s, you’ll see that it is specifically addressed to William Perry, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense at the time. Just google the phrase, “killing and neck-smiting”.

As for writers’ opinions on the election, I like what Thomas Carlyle said back in the 19th Century: “Between vague, wavering capability and fixed, indubitable performance, what a difference!” From Sartor Resartus. Go Bush!

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:20 pm 95. jerry:

Richard:

Exactly so! I am going to lead a three week session on “the Legend of the Grand Inquistor from Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karmazov at church. I wonder how many of our sample of writers could discuss the elements of turbulant flow in large high speed underwater objects?

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:20 pm 96. mrp:

ForNow -

Great ideas are not that for which one reads them. Iíve never read a piece of fiction by Roger L. Simon. I visit here sometimes because he does have interesting ideas & intelligent commentary.

I’m only here because I know that someday Roger’s going to post a hot picture of Gina Gershon touching up her lip gloss in a Prague cafe. Keep hope alive!

Oct 12, 2004 - 7:59 pm 97. TomTom:

ForNow: Brilliant. Thank you. hang in there.

Oct 12, 2004 - 8:28 pm 98. OldManRick:

Richard Mcenroe,

One of the things that amazed me in the late sixties was how many of my fellow MIT students would read pretty heavy fiction lit for relaxation.

By the time we got to college we usually had gone thorugh all the classic Science Fiction and had to drop back to “old” stuff My father had Analog Science magazine from about 1947 (when he got back from the Pacific). I read Asimov, Herbert, Niven, Anderson, and many others in the original magazine form in my high school summers. When I went to college, I couldn’t find a sci fi that I hadn’t already read so I went classical.

MIT was also worried about churning our “soul-less” engineers so it had a strong emphasis on lit courses. I’ll bet I took more lit than a lit major took science.

Oct 12, 2004 - 10:07 pm 99. Jack Tanner:

In Thomas Sowell’s great book The Vision of the Annointed he explains that ideas become associated with worldviews and if it’s the ’smart, sophisticated’ worldview that say, crushing babies skulls with forceps and extracting the body is acceptable then if you want to hold the pretension that you’re smart and sophisticated then thee’s nothing wrong with that idea. The corollary to the jr high school logic about smoking cigarettes in the bathroom ‘But the cool kids are doing it’

Oct 13, 2004 - 12:57 pm 100. Cool Tester:

Another wannabe writer here. This is a great thread, and I wanted to chime in.

I’ve noticed a general rejection of intellectual elitism in the past several years. Leftist intellectualism is probably one of the last ruling classes from the old world. First went the Kings and Queens, along with nobility in general. With the advent of capitalism, we have seen commoners become wealthy. Some people are still born into wealth, but most earn it. Lastly, the intellectual elitists are getting hit. Being intelligent is impressive, no question about that. It takes hard work to earn a degree. But that doesn’t make you superior, nor does it make your ideas more important than another’s.

Some comments on other posts:

“My greatest fear is not that Kerry will win fair and square it is that people will vote for him just to shut up the likes of John Clayton and because they are afraid of the Bushhaters.”

They can intimidate Bush supporters who make themselves public, but they can’t touch them in the voting booths. If anything, this attitude will encourage Bush supporters to go out and vote.

“Then Kerry can blather 24/7 for 4 years, the voters of this country will learn a hard and fast lesson. Jacking of the jaws will not alleviate the pain from an attack on a weak, ineffectual and effimate presidency.”

Agreed. Kerry has shown that he prefers to react to terrorism, instead of being proactive (like Bush). That means nothing will happen until there has been another terrorist attack on our soil. Not acceptable, not by any means. Bush will take the fight to the terrorists because it is the only way to deal with people bent on destroying you. That’s why my vote goes to Bush.

Oct 13, 2004 - 3:17 pm

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